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Ever wonder why some buyers jump on every new tool while others wait until their business is on fire before making a move?
In this episode, we dive into the psychology of tech buyers and break down the three types you'll meet: the perfectionist, the procrastinator, and the pragmatist, as well as practical selling strategies for each.
Essential listening for anyone in B2B tech sales who wants to understand what really makes their buyers tick.
Creators and Guests
What is Revenue Brothers?
What happens when a VC and a CEO come together?
– They nerd out about all things revenue. And they don’t always agree.
Raul Porojan of Project A Ventures and Toni Hohlbein of Growblocks are the Super Revenue Brothers. In every episode they dissect and debate current issues in B2B SaaS, and offer solutions on how to solve them
No matter if you’re an early-stage startup or a scaling unicorn – you’ll always learn something new.
Introduction
Raul: [00:00:00] I had this very funny thing with one of the ventures [00:00:03] I work with where we were talking about approaching kind [00:00:06] of an AI. An influencer in their space. they were [00:00:09] really stressing about how to approach that person and how do I get [00:00:12] into contact with them? They're so famous. There's a popular, and I was [00:00:15] like, dude,
Toni: Or was it me? Were they talking about me?
Raul: It was not Toni [00:00:18] Holbein. No, no. Um, it was Moni [00:00:21] Tolbein.
Toni: Yeah. There you go.
Toni: [00:00:24] So Raul, I heard you were giving a talk, at [00:00:27] Berlin's fashion week that's happening right now. I mean, what kind of [00:00:30] styles are you into lately that these guys chose you to talk [00:00:33] and present and tell people.
Raul: Yeah, I'm a fashion [00:00:36] influencer now. It didn't work with the revenue thing. [00:00:39] sorry, Toni. We're now becoming the fashion brothers. you don't [00:00:42] know about it yet, but we'll rapidly have to step up our game [00:00:45] there. I wouldn't say that fashion is my forte at all, but it is Berlin [00:00:48] Fashion Week right now.
Raul: one of the companies I work with asked me [00:00:51] to hold a talk at one of the events that they were holding [00:00:54] there. it turned out that, was kind of an interesting talk. It [00:00:57] was a very different audience to what I typically have [00:01:00] or what you would typically find maybe. And also [00:01:03] the topic was a little bit different.
Raul: I thought that it would [00:01:06] be a nice thing to bring with me today. and we had a little bit pre [00:01:09] discussion about that and we think that there are some angles there.
Toni: but [00:01:12] just to be clear, right. This is, You, you're not working with a [00:01:15] fashion label. You're working with a software company [00:01:18] that does something in the fashion space. And that's how [00:01:21] you get to kind of talk about stuff, right? It's, just to kind of [00:01:24] maybe make it a little bit less, musical for everyone listening.
Toni: It's like, [00:01:27] no, you know, it's like, I can, I can now see how, how Raul kind of [00:01:30] ended up on stage and, and was adding value.
Raul: It's a fashion AI [00:01:33] startup.
Toni: you go. Okay. so [00:01:36] then, tell us a little bit about this, right? how did you land on the topic? [00:01:39] Maybe first why was it relevant for you? And then let's go through how you [00:01:42] solved it.
Raul: So in a nutshell, the idea is [00:01:45] that buyers in [00:01:48] fashion are maybe different from as, as in every [00:01:51] industry, maybe a little bit different from buyers that typically [00:01:54] software sellers would sell to, but also similar in [00:01:57] some ways.
Raul: And one of the things is that as [00:02:00] buyers, As customers, there may be not super [00:02:03] experienced yet in buying technology as compared to maybe other tech [00:02:06] companies that you would be selling to or other startups or [00:02:09] very large enterprises who maybe have [00:02:12] own departments for that. And so [00:02:15] there's a gold mine there of buyer [00:02:18] education and behaviors that you can kind [00:02:21] of, push as a seller [00:02:24] to make the buyer behave the way you want them to, [00:02:27] but also behave that way for their own [00:02:30] benefit and, kind of make it like a little bit of a symbiotic [00:02:33] thing where you're not just using them. but you're [00:02:36] actually telling them, look, like this is how you buy stuff.
Raul: [00:02:39] And as you're selling to them, they can already [00:02:42] put that into action and have a more satisfying buying [00:02:45] experience. I found that that was very well received and, people were [00:02:48] like, well, this is actually very helpful, even though it was just a very short [00:02:51] talk. so I think the idea here is how do you as a [00:02:54] seller educate the buyer?
Raul: And, make more of a [00:02:57] symbiosis out of this relationship.
Toni: So first of Raul, I mean, this [00:03:00] sounds to me like this is relevant for everyone, not just people in fashion, right? [00:03:03] I mean, buyers buy, or don't buy, that seems to [00:03:06] be a consistent problem across all [00:03:09] industries, if you will. But like, well, what I don't fully understand [00:03:12] is the spin of how we can guide the buyer through [00:03:15] something like this, or is it, trying to understand how a buyer takes [00:03:18] and in order to sell to them in the right way, kind of how did you angle [00:03:21] before we go into the different topics.
Raul: Yeah. I think it's a little [00:03:24] bit about the, I kind of call them paradigm shifts [00:03:27] that you can, you can introduce to this whole [00:03:30] process and, to a cynical person, they might [00:03:33] just seem like, Oh, there's just a mindset, but I have [00:03:36] seen these things in real life, so I have. [00:03:39] seen these from corporates that I have actually worked with in a, on a [00:03:42] buyer's side, but also on the seller's side work quite well.
Raul: So there's [00:03:45] kind of paradigms that work better and paradigms that work [00:03:48] less. And I introduced these [00:03:51] paradigms. And then there is also, once you understand them, once you know what [00:03:54] you're looking for, and the way that it should be shaped, there's also [00:03:57] ways to get there. And, there's kind of like mind [00:04:00] shifts that you can, you can introduce there. so this is what [00:04:03] we're going into.
Toni: then let's jump into it kind of let's go into the [00:04:06] first. I'm not sure if it's a paradigm, a persona, [00:04:09] but the first way of how you would kind of shape, you know, the first [00:04:12] topic of a buyer or the first chapter of this, of this talk.[00:04:15]
The Three Buying Personas
Raul: Yeah, so, just to make it very simple, in my mind there's, kind [00:04:18] of like three buying personas. as in, [00:04:21] especially when it comes to technology, and especially relevant obviously nowadays with [00:04:24] the advent of AI, So the first one is [00:04:27] the perfectionist. Then the second one is [00:04:30] the procrastinator.
Raul: And the third one is the pragmatist [00:04:33] and as a buyer, obviously this is [00:04:36] like highly categorized here, but like, I'm boxing [00:04:39] people into three boxes and the perfectionists are [00:04:42] those people who let's take the eye example are [00:04:45] just always at the forefront of technology. their tech [00:04:48] stack is being updated regularly.
Raul: They're even [00:04:51] stressing very much about this topic. they're going to [00:04:54] every event, they're going to every [00:04:57] resource they can find online. They might even call themselves [00:05:00] an influencer in this sphere. And they buy everything that's [00:05:03] new just because it's new. So kind of like the early adopter people. [00:05:06] But also a little bit different because they're also really using [00:05:09] it, and trying to use it very much.
Raul: Sometimes not with the [00:05:12] results they wanted, but almost always at a very high [00:05:15] cost of time, stress, and money.
The Perfectionists
Toni: Yeah. So what's [00:05:18] important, you know, once you spot those people and you know what, I think if [00:05:21] you've been selling for a while, you can spot those three different types, [00:05:24] like, once you told me about this, I was like, 1000%, this [00:05:27] would have helped me selling, the software in my previous [00:05:30] startup.
Toni: Because it helps you categorize, how to assess those folks. Right. [00:05:33] But let's start with the perfectionists. what is easy [00:05:36] about them and what's difficult about them and what do you need to watch out for?
Raul: that's [00:05:39] a great question because it seems like it's very [00:05:42] easy because they're really open and, really open to [00:05:45] talking to you, really open to kind of like implementing [00:05:48] something. And, it's also very hard to some degrees, right? So, [00:05:51] as I said, very easy to get into talks to very [00:05:54] often, they will even be the ones approaching you or already.[00:05:57]
Raul: being in an ongoing discussion with you because [00:06:00] they're the guy that you, and again, keep in mind, they're like [00:06:03] a little bit rarer than kind of like the, the middle of the pack, [00:06:06] but they're the outliers that they're at every event. you see, [00:06:09] you start seeing them everywhere. You see them more and more on LinkedIn.
Raul: They're [00:06:12] constantly in discussions with you. They might be passionate about the topic, [00:06:15] very educated. They're reaching out to people all the time. [00:06:18] So that's great. Right there. They're easier to get a hold off. [00:06:21] Then when it comes to actually [00:06:24] selling, though, and implementing kind of a good [00:06:27] project with them.
Raul: This is where the problems can start [00:06:30] because so first of all, they're always different because they can come from [00:06:33] very big corporates who don't care about the money. They can also come [00:06:36] from very small startups, but it can be that they're [00:06:39] spending way too much money on tech and they're getting a lot of [00:06:42] pressure.
Raul: either from the CFO. They might even be a CFO [00:06:45] themselves, although as CFO perfectionist when it comes to buying tech [00:06:48] is very rare. but I have seen CEO. So I was just very passionate [00:06:51] about having all the newest stuff. It might be that [00:06:54] they're quite cash strapped, but that is a bit of a lesser problem at the end of [00:06:57] the day, probably not your problem.
Raul: Issue really, if they're [00:07:00] spending a lot of money on tech, the problem is [00:07:03] that they're doing way too many things at once and [00:07:06] not giving enough time to kind of like get it right. because [00:07:09] they're doing so much at once. So they're, these are the people that are going out [00:07:12] there and they're buying Attio with, [00:07:15] the newest kind of whatever came out last week, [00:07:18] better than Clay copy, but also introducing three new [00:07:21] AI tools at the same time.
Raul: And you as a seller [00:07:24] now have to make this into a good project where they can actually [00:07:27] have success with it. And, typically they're, even [00:07:30] though they're very enthusiastic, they're quite overwhelmed in [00:07:33] getting things into practice and just making a [00:07:36] good project out of that.
Raul: And getting the ROI and business [00:07:39] value that they wanted out of it.
Toni: I think the last part is kind of really [00:07:42] the key here. I kind of really landing these projects internally [00:07:45] and basically kind of helping that there is a recurring value [00:07:48] and then hopefully a renewal at the end of the period. Right. I [00:07:51] think another experience that I had with, I guess [00:07:54] what are perfectionist is You know, are those people that [00:07:57] like, well, theoretically I could use those 20 [00:08:00] different tools and, you know, clobber them together [00:08:03] somehow and do the same thing that you're doing.
Toni: And, you know, why would [00:08:06] I buy kind of this tool? So this is one thing. and then the [00:08:09] other thing that I, encountered a couple of times where [00:08:12] folks that very clearly we're like under [00:08:15] impressed with the 80, 90 percent use case, which is what [00:08:18] people end up using all the time. And then always kind of [00:08:21] talking about like crazy outlier use cases on top and [00:08:24] on top and on top that they themselves even wouldn't [00:08:27] be using.
Toni: But basically also just in the conversation, want to just [00:08:30] sound extremely smart and kind of have like a crazy [00:08:33] visionary angle on something. and maybe those are just, [00:08:36] CEO conversations I had. But that's also I think the [00:08:39] perfectionist bucket, right? Kind of that talk about, not [00:08:42] the, meat and potatoes kind of problems, but then, [00:08:45] trying to puff it up and in a weird way that it's not helpful for [00:08:48] anyone.
Toni: So not helpful for the company trying to solve the actual [00:08:51] problems.
Raul: And that also means that you kind of get to, Guide the [00:08:54] discussion possibly a bit less in the way that you [00:08:57] want it to because they have this, this whole [00:09:00] spiel and they also identify maybe with the topic very much. [00:09:03] But the biggest issue here. is [00:09:06] not all of them are like this. And obviously it's [00:09:09] a, it's a continuum, but a lot of times, they also [00:09:12] have this new shiny object attraction thing [00:09:15] and that is good when you're the new shiny object [00:09:18] that kind of gets you a lot of attention in a very short amount of time.
Raul: [00:09:21] It might not get you a great project though. Then you get in there [00:09:24] after a year, there's a new shiny thing coming up. [00:09:27] Now with AI, there's a new shiny thing coming out every single month. [00:09:30] And it might be the case that, they'll [00:09:33] just, drop you quite quickly. and, just [00:09:36] take that new shiny thing to toy around with and to play around with and [00:09:39] get it like perfectly right.
Raul: And get like the perfect tech stack. [00:09:42] And, sadly, the [00:09:45] problem that you have, coming from kind of the implementation side [00:09:48] is also a lot of times what leads to kind of like a [00:09:51] self fulfilling prophecy where the implementation was not perfect, [00:09:54] but it was, And then after half a year, a year, you're being [00:09:57] replaced by someone else because they're like, Oh yeah, but this didn't like [00:10:00] perfectly bring me the value and it could have, [00:10:03] but they had way too much on their plate at once.
Toni: [00:10:06] So what should you be doing? Should you just be kind of running into [00:10:09] the perfectionist and be like, F yourself? Or what is it you should be [00:10:12] doing with those guys?
Raul: Yeah. So with all the three [00:10:15] personas, what you want to do is kind of moved into the middle, which is where the [00:10:18] pragmatist is. We'll get to that in a second, but you want to [00:10:21] use the strength and the weaknesses. So, kind of like [00:10:24] understand, okay, this is this kind of person we're talking with, and again, it's a [00:10:27] continuum.
Raul: So there's a hundred. different personas, but to make it [00:10:30] easier, it's three and, they have this kind of advantage [00:10:33] to me and they have these disadvantages. So be wary of the [00:10:36] disadvantages and try to kind of counteract them from the beginning and [00:10:39] use the advantages. So get into talks easier with them.
Raul: it's [00:10:42] also one of the, I had this very funny [00:10:45] thing with one of the ventures I work with. They're doing also sales [00:10:48] AI about a month ago where we were talking about [00:10:51] approaching kind of an AI. An influencer in their [00:10:54] space that was exactly this kind of person. So [00:10:57] kind of like, also having, this is their own persona out [00:11:00] there and like being very vocal about things.
Raul: And, they [00:11:03] were really stressing about how to approach that person and how do I [00:11:06] get into contact with them? They're so famous. There's a popular, [00:11:09] and I was like, dude,
Toni: Or was it me? Were they talking about me?
Raul: It was not Toni [00:11:12] Holbein. No, no. Um, it was Moni [00:11:15] Tolbein.
Toni: Yeah. There you go.
Raul: No, no, it [00:11:18] was not you. Um, and they were really stressing [00:11:21] because that person was like really important to them.
Raul: I was like, dude, like this is [00:11:24] probably the person you need to stress about the least because [00:11:27] they're every day on LinkedIn posting three times, [00:11:30] interacting with everyone everywhere. They're going to answer you and they're [00:11:33] going to find it amazing and be super like [00:11:36] wowed by what you do and want to implement it immediately.
Raul: You just need to [00:11:39] get into a good project and it turns out that that's exactly what that [00:11:42] was. And the way that they did that was just like flattering [00:11:45] that person a little bit and their ego and be like, Oh my God, this is so [00:11:48] great that you're like so vocal about this and I wish we had [00:11:51] this back then and
Toni: This would never work with me. [00:11:54] It would never work with me.
Raul: flattery gets you very far with these [00:11:57] kinds
Toni: Absolutely. Yeah. [00:12:00] Interesting. But I mean, I can also see that, once you identify as a [00:12:03] perfectionist, and you know, kind of, I think you mentioned some of the solution already [00:12:06] kind of trying to move them towards a more pragmatist approach. [00:12:09] It's almost like taking them by the, by the shoulder and by the arms, [00:12:12] shaking them real hard and being like, Hey, listen.
Toni: [00:12:15] What's important is this thing over there. Forget all the other [00:12:18] crap. This thing over here is important and kind of get them to like, wake [00:12:21] up from their fever dream and be like, you know what? You're actually right. Thank you very [00:12:24] much, salesperson. I mean, that, that feels to me like [00:12:27] another approach to, to solve that situation.
Raul: Yeah. [00:12:30] And cause every day they're like, Oh, new tool. Oh, new tool. [00:12:33] Next day. Oh, new tool next week. Oh my God. [00:12:36] New, new AI model. New, this new, the other, think about the [00:12:39] possibilities and you just have to keep them a little bit stable. Right. and save them [00:12:42] from themselves.
The Procrastinators
Toni: So that was the perfectionist. guess we're, [00:12:45] we're moving to the, um, procrastinator [00:12:48] next.
Raul: Yeah. The procrastinator is probably the [00:12:51] most annoying one, although not necessarily the most difficult [00:12:54] one, the procrastinator is someone who, if they [00:12:57] could, they would still use Windows 95, even [00:13:00] in 2025 If they could, they would never buy tech.
Raul: [00:13:03] they're anxious about it. they want to get it perfect, but they don't know how to go [00:13:06] about it. They might also have a personal [00:13:09] dislike or mistrust of startups [00:13:12] of tech. there may be the kind of person that says, Oh, you know, this [00:13:15] I think is a fad.
Raul: Oh, you know, we've had bad [00:13:18] experiences with startups before and they just really want to make [00:13:21] everything stay the same. Some people think and obviously [00:13:24] most likely they're not using windows 95 anymore, but they still have this kind of [00:13:27] way of working where They only start doing [00:13:30] and moving things when doom is almost [00:13:33] in front of their doorstep or has already happened.[00:13:36]
Raul: And then they're frantically panicking, talking to every [00:13:39] single seller and want to implement everything at once [00:13:42] yesterday because their business is failing or whatever [00:13:45] catastrophe is about to happen. And people think that these are almost [00:13:48] always, I'm referring to kind of like only the big corporates.[00:13:51]
Raul: To some extent that happens sometimes. And there's also reasons why [00:13:54] it's maybe not even a personal thing, but because tech is a [00:13:57] bit harder to implement in corporates and it's more risky, people are [00:14:00] more careful. it's part of the, the hypothesis [00:14:03] of spin selling, by the way, from Neil Reckham, which is my all time favorite sales [00:14:06] book, is how selling B2B is different to corporates and [00:14:09] to, to small ventures. But I've [00:14:12] also seen this in tech startups that are just like more risk [00:14:15] averse or like, even if it's not about risk, but they're just like, [00:14:18] oh, no, no, no, we can't focus. We can't focus on this right now. We need [00:14:21] to, I don't know, grow first. We're too small for this. We're [00:14:24] too this for that. this is like a very typical and common startup [00:14:27] excuse for delaying tech.
Raul: [00:14:30] You actually would need and would make you better
Toni: Yeah, I [00:14:33] think, I like this, clarification on corporate and [00:14:36] actually kind of, this is a personality trait, right? I think you could [00:14:39] say that corporates are better at attracting risk [00:14:42] averse personalities, I think this is one thing, but I think [00:14:45] also, the risk mindedness and bigger [00:14:48] organization, but there's more value to protect instead of value [00:14:51] to build, if you will.
Toni: I think that, that mindset is [00:14:54] just more institutionalized, right? With like the chief [00:14:57] security info sec officer or something like this, but just [00:15:00] general kind of how the organization works with a key cards and the check [00:15:03] ins and like all of that stuff. Right. but it basically [00:15:06] is, still a personal thing.
Toni: so I think this is really interesting. Number one, [00:15:09] number two. So the procrastinator, what do you [00:15:12] do with them? do you give up when you have them or what's the solution [00:15:15] here?
Raul: This is like multifaceted. and it also comes a [00:15:18] little bit down to what are the reasons they procrastinate? Is it [00:15:21] internal processes and kind of they're part of this [00:15:24] slow moving behemoth that is like, I don't know, just [00:15:27] really slow to implement things in the first place and difficult to get [00:15:30] things into.
Raul: so as an example that I gave at the talk, I've seen this [00:15:33] in real life. there's a good amount of companies, sometimes even [00:15:36] tech or startups themselves that have a high [00:15:39] mistrust in other tech and startup companies. And to an [00:15:42] extent, very understandable because it's maybe a bit more [00:15:45] risky.
Raul: It's unproven and all that jazz, right? and one thing which I [00:15:48] found genius, this is not one company that did that, but it's kind [00:15:51] of like a little bit of a mind shift and paradigm shift here again, [00:15:54] is framing it a little bit differently towards [00:15:57] the, the seller and, just looking at it from a buyer [00:16:00] side.
Raul: So I have this Toni guy in front of me. Toni has this [00:16:03] early stage startup and, there's like 10, 20 people [00:16:06] and he wants to sell me this tech. And it could be a [00:16:09] good idea, but I don't know. It's like super risky and [00:16:12] startups. And I am, I don't know if I trust it. Let's turn that [00:16:15] around. If you're a [00:16:18] buyer at a corporate and I offered you the chance [00:16:21] to get like 10, 20 [00:16:24] insanely hardworking, crazy people, because you have to [00:16:27] be crazy to launch a startup who will work [00:16:30] way too much.
Raul: And probably sell you their product for way too [00:16:33] cheap because they're making a loss early on. And [00:16:36] you could hire those people for very cheap for like 50 K or [00:16:39] so. Would you do that? And almost every [00:16:42] single time they're going to say, yeah, sure. I mean, obviously like one [00:16:45] person costs me 50 K and then probably not even that, maybe [00:16:48] like more like a hundred and here I can have 10, 20 like [00:16:51] hardworking people.
Raul: because I find that that is the truth. Most of the [00:16:54] time for an early stage startup, especially if you're more of a [00:16:57] significant customer, they're going to go. Way [00:17:00] above everything else that is acquired. They're going to put way more [00:17:03] effort in there than the money that you're paying them is worth. [00:17:06] And they're most likely to sell you their product at a [00:17:09] loss.
Raul: that's another view of that, by the way, most [00:17:12] likely being funded by a VC. So in [00:17:15] another way, you're kind of pocketing as a buyer buying [00:17:18] from an early stage startup, you're kind of pocketing the money of [00:17:21] the VC.
Toni: arbitrage right there.
Raul: yeah, the VCs putting [00:17:24] their money in there, they're supplementing the deal with, [00:17:27] let's say on a hundred on a deal basis, a hundred K that's your a [00:17:30] hundred K equity.
Raul: If you're taking it as a, as a buyer.
Toni: When you say [00:17:33] the, the procrastinator, I think what kind of [00:17:36] clicked in my head first was, okay, indecision. We're [00:17:39] going to talk about indecision, not necessarily about the insecurity, [00:17:42] that, you know, I sometimes call it just FUD, fear, uncertainty, [00:17:45] doubt, kind of, they're basically there and more [00:17:48] prone to, to have issues with FUD.
Toni: but I think [00:17:51] both, so FUD can trigger indecision, [00:17:54] right? But I think what I found difficult with those folks is [00:17:57] like, I don't think they necessarily tell you that that's [00:18:00] what is causing the delay and the indecision actually. [00:18:03] So how do you deal with that? Do you just kind of come out and say it, or [00:18:06] do you try and kind of get it out of them before you react to it?
Toni: how do [00:18:09] you deal with those, unsaid objections, basically, [00:18:12] especially with the procrastinator here?
Raul: Yeah. I think [00:18:15] this is the classical case. And obviously this has been preached for [00:18:18] 50 years now where the [00:18:21] different dimensions of urgency can really help you. [00:18:24] procrastinators are typically moved by, impending doom or a [00:18:27] doom that has already happened. So some catastrophe that's about to happen [00:18:30] and they will only move at that moment, but when they do, [00:18:33] they will mobilize a lot of resources and a lot [00:18:36] of time and effort to get that thing done and make sure that they [00:18:39] can live another day. And I've seen this time and time again, [00:18:42] coming from my own at university and maybe [00:18:45] some listeners as well. I don't know about you, Toni, but, when that [00:18:48] exam is happening tomorrow, there is absolutely no problem [00:18:51] staying up for 24 hours, no problem at all. And then writing that [00:18:54] exam and still getting kind of an okay, great, right?
Raul: and these people are [00:18:57] still out there, they're buying, and there's actually a lot of them. That is part of [00:19:00] the reason why urgency can be so powerful, and [00:19:03] I'm not talking the urgency of a Hey, you have to get back to me [00:19:06] by next Tuesday so I can check this off of my [00:19:09] CRM, but more as in what is about [00:19:12] to happen in the market?
Raul: What is about to happen in the business? What is [00:19:15] happening with competitors? I find that just [00:19:18] understanding a lot about the competition is one of the [00:19:21] biggest arguments you can bring in there. people are just always trying [00:19:24] to outsmart their competition, even when they're procrastinators. [00:19:27] it's something that is kind of like, it's an itch that they have that [00:19:30] you can mend.
Raul: oh yeah, I've seen, we're working with these [00:19:33] competitors and I've seen them do this and that, right? But then the biggest one [00:19:36] is obviously, hey, look, this is what's about to happen. If you're [00:19:39] not moving right now,
The Pragmatists
Toni: Okay. I think this makes sense. I [00:19:42] think this is pretty clear. What about, you know, you're kind of, [00:19:45] you set up the stage to end on your favorite. so the [00:19:48] pragmatist, right. If I'm just taking it off the cuff, [00:19:51] seems to be the person that makes just good [00:19:54] decisions quickly on very little information on, you know, [00:19:57] justice, enough information, basically.
Toni: So [00:20:00] those are all the good things. What are the bad things about pragmatists?
Raul: I wouldn't [00:20:03] necessarily say it like that. So the pragmatist is not just like doing [00:20:06] everything well. and they also have downsides I'm going to get to in a [00:20:09] second, but, they're not just middle of the pack. They're there. It's a little bit of [00:20:12] a different idea. So for the [00:20:15] pragmatist, it's not just everything is in moderation, but [00:20:18] they have kind of a healthy view of [00:20:21] things.
Raul: which to me is a very different thing. So they're not, they're not motivated [00:20:24] by fear so much. They're not motivated necessarily [00:20:27] by perfection so much. So if you could call the motivations, it would be [00:20:30] perfectionist is just like motivated by perfection, [00:20:33] passion, interest. The procrastinator, [00:20:36] is motivated by fear and, by impending [00:20:39] doom.
Raul: And the pragmatist is just motivated by kind of like. [00:20:42] Business. So they're, they're very businessy [00:20:45] people.
Toni: Okay, I have another way to maybe [00:20:48] describe that person. Maybe I'm just not getting it right. But I think [00:20:51] pragmatists are also maybe lazy people. you know, in the [00:20:54] best sense of the word, right. I think it can be a very [00:20:57] successful business person if you're just lazy, kind of really spending your [00:21:00] kilojoules where you need to spend your kilojoules, right.
Toni: And to a [00:21:03] degree, um, you know, [00:21:06] those are the folks, and I think it's the majority of people out there, [00:21:09] period. those are the folks that I think make decisions like, [00:21:12] Oh, I heard this company is the leader in [00:21:15] this category. Let's just buy this company. let's just buy [00:21:18] the product from that company, for example.
Toni: would you say that, you know, am I [00:21:21] getting it right or getting it wrong? Kind of, is that something that describes a [00:21:24] pragmatist in your view?
Raul: I like the lazy part. So [00:21:27] at least in my view, because, they're lazy and [00:21:30] they know, they kind of have a very healthy view on things and just like [00:21:33] very, they're not so passionate about tech, but they're like, Hey, I know this [00:21:36] is gonna save me time, which pays into my laziness, but I also [00:21:39] know that I kind of need to deal with this right now because if I don't, [00:21:42] I'm gonna stress the fuck out in six months.
Raul: And that [00:21:45] they also have kind of a little bit of a longer term view, just [00:21:48] not like. 10 years, but like maybe a half a year, a year. [00:21:51] And they know, man, I've gotten into trouble with [00:21:54] tech like this and this way. And that way over my 10 year career, [00:21:57] I know that I just kind of regularly have to do it.
Raul: [00:22:00] Right. and that was the analogy I used at the fashion thing, by the way, just [00:22:03] like, I just have to do this all once in a while. Cause if not, [00:22:06] I know that I will end up in a mess and then things will spiral out of [00:22:09] control and then I will panic again. [00:22:12] And knowing all that, the kind of reverse engineer that and have [00:22:15] this just like very healthy outlook on things, which means, for example, when they [00:22:18] need to buy something, they're like, okay, we need to do [00:22:21] something.
Raul: let's just spend a reasonable amount of time looking at things, [00:22:24] including looking at the leader. Yes, but then also maybe [00:22:27] taking another couple of vendors in there as well, just to have a good [00:22:30] decision because the luxury that they have is that they're trying to solve problems a [00:22:33] little bit in advance and anticipating that Problems will [00:22:36] come, not always, but sometimes.
Raul: And that gives them a little bit of [00:22:39] room to say, we don't need to solve this problem [00:22:42] yesterday, but maybe we can have the luxury of looking at two vendors [00:22:45] over a week or two.
Toni: Let's just say you're not the market leader in your [00:22:48] industry, let's just say you're not, oops, you're not Salesforce. [00:22:51] You're someone else.would you say that one of the [00:22:54] downsides of those pragmatists, that you maybe need to manage is Making [00:22:57] them aware of some of the more nuanced things where you [00:23:00] differentiate that may be important for that specific buyer versus something [00:23:03] else.
Toni: And if you don't do that, if you don't do it proactively [00:23:06] enough and clearly enough, they just, might not know or forget [00:23:09] and make the decision based on other criteria.
Raul: [00:23:12] Yes, a hundred percent. So the [00:23:15] pragmatists are possibly the hardest to market to as [00:23:18] in like, because marketing, as in getting the [00:23:21] messaging out there and in front of their face, and [00:23:24] having the likelihood be very small, that that is [00:23:27] exactly the message they need at that time. However. [00:23:30] And I think that this is kind of a lost art.[00:23:33]
Raul: These are also the people who are [00:23:36] really good once you start [00:23:39] personalizing really with them. And once you really start understanding and empathizing [00:23:42] them, because that's how you really differentiate yourself in front of them. [00:23:45] The perfectionist maybe knows everything already. Anyways, you don't really [00:23:48] need to.
Raul: Personalize that much. You just need to kind of like talk to them and sell [00:23:51] them their thing. but then you have the problem with implementation obviously. [00:23:54] The procrastinator knows nothing and they're just overwhelmed. So [00:23:57] they're going to maybe actually just go for [00:24:00] the most known or famous company. I find that the pragmatists are [00:24:03] the people who respond very well to being [00:24:06] understood, being really trying to solve a problem [00:24:09] collaboratively and doing so, is typically [00:24:12] done much easier on an actual outreach.
Raul: or like talking [00:24:15] to them at events, getting to know them, getting through introductions, whatever.
Toni: Well, [00:24:18] one tip from my side and, you know, obviously when you build a [00:24:21] company, you struggle with messaging there's even the thing message [00:24:24] market fit, what are you saying and, how's it resonating with people. one [00:24:27] of my tips is actually ask those [00:24:30] pragmatists to, tell you what, what you [00:24:33] are.
Toni: and what, what sometimes really eyeopening, it's like, [00:24:36] you know, , they say it sometimes in four words, you are [00:24:39] this and this and this, or you view this category that I'm, [00:24:42] whatever it might be, versus the perfectionist, they're trying to [00:24:45] completely explain you in a paragraph.
Toni: Yeah. The [00:24:48] pragmatist just kind of says it out loud in five, five words and kind of is [00:24:51] done with it, which can be extremely powerful for you, right? [00:24:54] Okay. I mean, so there might be some academic [00:24:57] listeners here, and I think you kind of dropped a little bit of a hint [00:25:00] in the beginning when you and I kind of discussed this first, it was like, well, [00:25:03] you know, it sounds a little bit like this idea of crossing the chasm.
Toni: [00:25:06] Right. I'm not sure if who read the book is a classic. Everyone should be reading [00:25:09] it, but you have your early adopters, which basically sounds to me like the [00:25:12] perfectionist. Then you have the early majority, late [00:25:15] majority, which is kind of the pragmatist, just split [00:25:18] into, different groups.
Toni: And then you have, the laggards, I [00:25:21] think they're called, which almost sounded like a little bit like your [00:25:24] procrastinators, right? So I think it's, much more [00:25:27] salesified view of [00:25:30] that. I don't know. I think it's 40, 50 year old, kind of this book [00:25:33] now. and probably all the people listening here have never read it or heard [00:25:36] about it.
Toni: so it's really actually a net new idea that we're pushing [00:25:39] out, which I think is really interesting.
Raul: Innovation everywhere, [00:25:42] right? But I'll leave with this. Just [00:25:45] kind of like, what is the gist of all that?
Conclusion and Key Takeaways
Raul: What do I do with this now, right? [00:25:48] So, these people have different motivations, different [00:25:51] needs, and different challenges. With the [00:25:54] perfectionists, what you need to do is keep them focused. So [00:25:57] The term here is focus.
Raul: That's what you need to bring in there. [00:26:00] And that focus extending into the implementation of a good project [00:26:03] and then keeping their eyes on the prize, right? That is the difficulty [00:26:06] there with the. [00:26:09] Procrastinators, what you need is to lead them. So all they want is [00:26:12] someone, when they feel miserable and when they feel like their company is going to go down the [00:26:15] drain because they missed the boat another time, they [00:26:18] want someone to save them and lead them out of the impending [00:26:21] doom, right?
Raul: And, take them by the hand and show them the way and [00:26:24] be like, hey, this is how you get there, this is how we're going to do it, all of that, right? [00:26:27] And the challenge with the pragmatist [00:26:30] is that they want to be understood. So call that [00:26:33] actual collaboration and actual [00:26:36] understanding, which I think is another one of these [00:26:39] classic things where 50 percent of [00:26:42] founders or companies that are listening to this are thinking they're in the top [00:26:45] 10 percent of that.
Raul: and that's obviously not how it works out. In my [00:26:48] opinion, most people are not as good as they think they are at [00:26:51] personalizing, especially not if they're using AI for it. I'm sorry, [00:26:54] unfortunately. and getting close to actual [00:26:57] human interaction. but this is what these people are looking for [00:27:00] and this is when they will buy.
Raul: However, for [00:27:03] all these three personas, and I've seen this again and again, [00:27:06] this is how you can really differentiate yourself from the competition [00:27:09] out there. Even if you're not the market leader, the pragmatist might [00:27:12] just choose you because yes, you're not the market leader. You're not [00:27:15] as famous, but you're the one that has actually understood how they can.[00:27:18]
Raul: Get the value that they would really like and you're the one that [00:27:21] has actually written them not a copy paste email But an [00:27:24] actual one written by hand or actually called them and picked up the phone.
Toni: [00:27:27] And I think that's a great way to end the show. Everyone, if you haven't already [00:27:30] hit subscribe, like whatever button you're kind of seeing in front of [00:27:33] yourself, really helps us really helps the show to progress. So we would [00:27:36] love to see that. And otherwise, thank you so much Raul [00:27:39] and, see y'all guys next week.
Toni: Bye bye.
Raul: you like and subscribe [00:27:42] guys [00:27:45]