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Debra: [00:00:00] I see your sin, I see your struggle, I see your heart for change, and [00:00:05] I want you back. I wanna be reconnected to you,"
that's [00:00:10] why repair is so powerful because it's like, well, now that you know [00:00:15] me and you know how mean I can be, but you still want me
Christy: You
Christy: Hello, [00:00:30] everybody. Welcome back to the show. I have my friend Debra back [00:00:35] today to talk about her new book, " Relationship Skills," and I am [00:00:40] so excited about it. Now, if you recall from a previous show that we had Debra on, [00:00:45] Debra is a licensed professional counselor, national speaker, author of 10 [00:00:50] books, including "People Skills," "Soul Care," and "Reset."
She is the founder [00:00:55] of the Debra Fileta Counselors Network and host of the "Talk To Me" podcast. [00:01:00] Debra and her husband, John, have been married nearly 20 years and have four [00:01:05] kids. And Debra, I gotta tell you, I just love your books. Before we started filming just now, we were [00:01:10] talking about how timely it is, where you were saying that the church is now [00:01:15] ready to talk about mental health.
Would you just share a little bit of that on the air? Because I think that was a little [00:01:20] special treat that I wish the listeners heard.
Debra: Yeah. You know, I think about when I first [00:01:25] started in ministry and how the focus was relationships and [00:01:30] healthy relationships, but interestingly enough, between me and you, it almost felt [00:01:35] like my opportunity to sneak in some mental health content [00:01:40] in the form of a marriage conference or a relationship conference, because really what it comes [00:01:45] down to is healthy people make healthy relationships.
And [00:01:50] so it was kinda like snuck in some of the content. But [00:01:55] come 2020, and things really started shifting in our country and in the [00:02:00] church, and it felt like people were finally realizing [00:02:05] that they were not doing well. The pressures came up to the surface, and for the [00:02:10] first time in a long time, the church was ready to have deeper [00:02:15] conversations about mental and emotional health.
And so I guess looking back at that [00:02:20] year, it was such a significant year in so many ways. But the beauty, [00:02:25] that it invited conversations that we probably would have not [00:02:30] otherwise had. So I'm just so grateful for the opportunity to speak into this stuff
Christy: [00:02:35] Yes. Well, and you and I are soul sisters in the sense where, it's [00:02:40] people skills, it's relationship skills. And as a homeschool mom, one of the [00:02:45] things that I like to shout from the rooftops is that an education is more about skills than [00:02:50] content. And I think looking at that differently as, we can get better [00:02:55] at our skills is so valuable, but it's not talked about enough in the context of marriage.
And that's [00:03:00] what today's show is about, everybody. It's about that healthy relationships aren't found, [00:03:05] they're built. And marriages don't fall apart from a necessarily a lack of love, but [00:03:10] mainly from a lack of skill. Debra, would you expand on that a little bit? Did I get it right, [00:03:15] first off? Is there anything to correct there?
And, um, would you expand on that?
Debra: it's [00:03:20] exactly the premise of this book, because I think too many Christians [00:03:25] assume that just because they're Christians, they're going to be good at [00:03:30] relationships. But that's not how it works, When we come to Jesus, we're [00:03:35] not automatically good at any discipline or area of [00:03:40] expertise.
We've gotta put in the work. So it's really interesting that we just assume [00:03:45] that we're gonna be good at marriage because we know Jesus. But knowing Jesus [00:03:50] doesn't mean we're good at communication. Knowing Jesus doesn't [00:03:55] mean we are good at repair. Knowing Jesus doesn't mean we automatically [00:04:00] know what it looks like to set boundaries and have healthy expectations and [00:04:05] deal with conflict in healthy ways.
So, so much of this is a [00:04:10] skill set, and it doesn't necessarily reflect a lack of love. I work with so many [00:04:15] couples in marriage counseling who I truly do believe they love each other. [00:04:20] They really love each other. They, have affection towards one another and care [00:04:25] towards one another, but they're still not able to have [00:04:30] a healthy relationship.
They're still struggling with conflict. They're still struggling with [00:04:35] unhealthy patterns, some of them even on the brink of divorce. I don't believe it's [00:04:40] because of a lack of love. I really believe it's because there are skills that [00:04:45] they have not been taught. There are skills that they have learned that are unhealthy [00:04:50] from their family of origin, from their childhood that they have to unlearn.
[00:04:55] and so if we could see it more as a skill set rather than a love [00:05:00] issue, first of all, I think it would give us empathy and compassion for our spouse. Like, [00:05:05] okay, maybe, maybe it's not that they don't love me. Maybe it's just [00:05:10] no one ever taught them how to love me well, and vice versa
Christy: and also [00:05:15] can we get the disclaimer out because I know you are the first one to say you don't want anyone [00:05:20] staying in a dangerous relationship or an abusive relationship. So who are we really-- [00:05:25] One, I wanna make sure that that's made clear in the language you wanna use for that, but also [00:05:30] this book is, is for, it's for people who both are relatively healthy and [00:05:35] wanna try.
how do you separate those camps? Because, you know, there's some, man, [00:05:40] I mean, I have some friends where I gotta be honest, I'm glad she left.
Debra: [00:05:45] Yeah. I do think it's worth clarifying because there are different levels of [00:05:50] health and dysfunction. Every relationship has [00:05:55] struggles. I think there is a difficult relationship where, you [00:06:00] know, my husband and I are fighting, we have conflict, [00:06:05] we've had more tension than not lately.
That I would consider a [00:06:10] difficult relationship. there's the level before that, which is we're [00:06:15] struggling. We have struggles. Maybe you're in a relationship with your husband and, and you find [00:06:20] yourself fighting and, you know, s- sometimes you go to bed without, without repair, [00:06:25] and there's feelings of tension and some communication issues, but it [00:06:30] doesn't seem to be happening more often than not.
So that would probably be more [00:06:35] benign level. And then there's a couple notches more. I would [00:06:40] say a dysfunctional relationship is where the majority of [00:06:45] the relationship has tension, has conflict, has negative feelings for one [00:06:50] another. Even that we could work with. But then we move into the [00:06:55] toxic relationship, and we're not just talking about dysfunction.
We're [00:07:00] not just talking about a skill set. A toxic relationship is one in [00:07:05] which we're talking about harm, and then we could be, uh, talking about [00:07:10] emotional abuse, verbal abuse, sexual abuse, physical [00:07:15] abuse, spiritual abuse, where there is harm [00:07:20] being done and, and done intentionally. there's times in my marriage where my [00:07:25] husband hurts me unintentionally, but a pattern of harm that's [00:07:30] intentional, that's toxic.
And when we're talking to people in toxic [00:07:35] relationships, the advice is a little bit different. but here's the [00:07:40] thing. As you get healthy, even if you're in a toxic relationship, you [00:07:45] recognize toxicity more than if you were unhealthy. [00:07:50] So even for someone who's listening, who might find themselves in a toxic [00:07:55] relationship, as you get healthy, you recognize [00:08:00] more, you see more patterns, you set more boundaries, you do things [00:08:05] differently, you, you change your expectations and what you're okay with and what you're not okay with.[00:08:10]
So at the end of the day, I think the message of let me own my [00:08:15] personal healing applies to everyone, no matter what stage of a [00:08:20] relationship you might be in. But when it comes to trying to repair a [00:08:25] toxic relationship, that's when I say you really do need the help of a [00:08:30] professional to help you figure out next steps.
Christy: I've noticed people throw [00:08:35] around a lot of terms now that, "You know what? I'm a thought leader and I'm on TikTok," and all of that. But, you [00:08:40] know, I feel like nowadays moms can, you know, feel like they can diagnose their kids with ADHD, [00:08:45] themselves with ADHD, or their husband as a narcissist Which she might be [00:08:50] right. You know, she might be right. But also I think that it could be there's, there's a difference between [00:08:55] a narcissist, which is a very small percentage of the population. Isn't it around [00:09:00] 2%, 5%? I don't
Debra: 1 to 6%, yeah
Christy: Yeah. Okay, okay. Yeah. And then, [00:09:05] but you can be unhealthy and do narcissistic abuse, [00:09:10] like silent treatment, for example.
If someone does silent treatment, that doesn't [00:09:15] mean they are a narcissist, right? I think that that's a good distinction there [00:09:20] as we move forward with the conversation, because I don't want a mom or a wife listening right now [00:09:25] to say, "Oh, he did that," you know, "therefore he's a narcissist," right?
Debra: Right. [00:09:30] I agree. You do have to be so careful, and that's why even if you think that might be [00:09:35] the case, I suggest you work with a [00:09:40] professional counselor. I suggest you, you have somebody as a sounding [00:09:45] board who can help you say, "Yeah, this is in line with dysfunctional [00:09:50] relationships. This is in line with a difficult relationships, problematic, or this is really [00:09:55] toxic."
A- and you also know something's toxic when you're throwing healthy things at it [00:10:00] and, and it's not shifting the dynamic. You know? So, so this is where, again, [00:10:05] if you're even entertaining the thought, "Could I be married to a narcissist? [00:10:10] Could I be married to an addict? Could I be married to an abuser?" [00:10:15] 100% you need to help-- get the help of a professional counselor [00:10:20] so that you can make an accurate assessment and figure out what your next [00:10:25] steps are.
But for those, tuning into this conversation, hopefully even this will be [00:10:30] clarifying of where you might be with the level of health of your current relationship.
Christy: [00:10:35] Yes. Yeah. And I've heard it said, you know, I am, speaking of you or speaking of [00:10:40] me, I am a homeschooling coach. I'm not your homeschooling coach, right? Like you [00:10:45] are a therapist, you're not her therapist. but I wanna get that out of the way [00:10:50] because I think that that's an important foundation to lay before we talk about just the skills [00:10:55] of growing a marriage and, and having, you know, often what women would call a [00:11:00] bumpy ride.
And you talk about marriage having four seasons. This was so cool when I was [00:11:05] reading this. and I think that what surprises people is that they're not stages-- When you're [00:11:10] describing these four seasons, they're not stages that, you pass through once, right? Can you talk about that?
Debra: [00:11:15] Yeah, so in working with singles and couples, dating, engaged, [00:11:20] married, I mean, I've worked with thousands of couples over the past two decades, [00:11:25] and I started realizing that relationships have this [00:11:30] natural progression. Just as in nature, they pass [00:11:35] through four seasons, spring, summer, fall, and winter. [00:11:40] And, and here's what I mean by that.
The season of spring in a relationship is that [00:11:45] new season, that, early season, the season where [00:11:50] there's attraction and growth and good seeds being [00:11:55] planted. There's blossoming, there's blooming. You kinda see things through a [00:12:00] rose-colored lens. You feel in sync with one another in y- in your [00:12:05] give and take.
You know, that's why I talk about growth. It's like I give, you give. We're kind of in [00:12:10] sync. We've got this going well. That's the season of spring. [00:12:15] And then we move into the season of summer, which I talk about as a [00:12:20] season of deeper intimacy. Summer is the season [00:12:25] when things get hot, and the thing about summer is the heat [00:12:30] can burn you if you're not careful.
You could get burned if you don't go [00:12:35] into it with the proper protection and boundaries. But the goal of summer in a [00:12:40] relationship is to deepen our intimacy and connection [00:12:45] emotionally, spiritually, physically. So what does that look like for us [00:12:50] to, to draw deeper in the season of summer? Then we move into the season of [00:12:55] fall, which is the season where your true colors start to [00:13:00] shine through.
Fall is really a season of conflict [00:13:05] and communication because all of a sudden you realize we're two different [00:13:10] people with two different opinions, personality types, interests, [00:13:15] family of origin, baggage, sins, struggles. I mean, all the differences [00:13:20] kinda start coming out in this season where conflict becomes part of the [00:13:25] dynamic of the relationship, where maybe in spring you had such low conflict.[00:13:30]
All of a sudden it seems like tension is higher. There's more to work through. I [00:13:35] also think fall Is a season of authenticity, and vulnerability [00:13:40] because there's nowhere left to hide when the leaves begin to fall and, and all [00:13:45] you've got left is the bare branches. So, so it's a season of really, [00:13:50] stepping into vulnerability and authenticity, and maybe in ways you've not stepped into [00:13:55] before.
And then we move into the season of winter, which is [00:14:00] when things begin to cool down in a relationship. The frost of apathy [00:14:05] kinda sets in for some people, and it's like, it's so familiar [00:14:10] that it begins to freeze over if we're not careful, but what I love about winter [00:14:15] is there's beautiful things in this season too.
Winter is [00:14:20] the season of exposure. It's the season of turning inward and, and getting [00:14:25] myself healthy. And so every season, Christy, gives us [00:14:30] an opportunity and an invitation. Every season exposes our [00:14:35] strengths, but it also exposes our weaknesses. And how we [00:14:40] navigate through each season, especially when we can kind of identify and be aware of it, [00:14:45] we can make the most of it by becoming healthy, by strengthening certain [00:14:50] skills, by realizing where we're weak, where we're strong.
The seasons [00:14:55] can really become a framework for us to grow in our relationship and [00:15:00] as individuals
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Christy: as you were talking, I was thinking, [00:15:45] well, and I, I just wanna hear your s- your perspective. This was not a planned question,
so I'm
throwing you a curveball. [00:15:50] But, what does God want for our marriages? the first term that [00:15:55] comes to mind is He wants secure attachment.
Debra: I think oftentimes as Christians, [00:16:00] we think that the goal that God has in mind for our [00:16:05] relationships is longevity. We should just stay married as long as possible. [00:16:10] God wants us to be married for the long haul. Let's see how many years we can get to.
Maybe we can reach our [00:16:15] grandparents' 70-year anniversary.
Christy: Yeah.
Debra: The, the thing is, I agree [00:16:20] to a, to a point. The goal of Christian [00:16:25] marriage is not just longevity, it's [00:16:30] transformation. It's for me to become more like Jesus. It's [00:16:35] for me to become healthier along the way. It's for this relationship, [00:16:40] this mirror of marriage, to begin to expose the things [00:16:45] in me that need healing, growth, maturity, and transformation so that I [00:16:50] can become better.
And I really think that's the ultimate goal of marriage, is [00:16:55] that God uses it to refine us, to, to make us more like [00:17:00] Jesus. And, and the beautiful thing, as we become more like Him, we [00:17:05] experience marriage in a fuller, richer, more joy-filled, more [00:17:10] connected way. As you become more like Jesus, as I become more like Jesus, as my spouse [00:17:15] becomes more like Jesus, even my attachment increases, and my, my connection and my [00:17:20] intimacy and my joy.
But ultimately, I wanna go back to I really think [00:17:25] the goal is, is transformation
Christy: That's powerful. And I was giggling when you said [00:17:30] longevity because on the, the, my husband's side of, uh, of the [00:17:35] family, they are always at-- We have, when our h- we have our family reunions, they're [00:17:40] always talking about, "And so and so was married 70 years, and so and so..." And I happen [00:17:45] to know that there were some pretty unhealthy marriages there. And [00:17:50] so, yeah, I mean, I think that is an old school way of looking at it. And also, aren't [00:17:55] you shortchanging yourself when it's just about getting through [00:18:00] and so that we can say that we were married this long, right? Like, it's something [00:18:05] to... I remember, I think all relationships, when you really love that person, [00:18:10] they're worth fighting for.
And I remember I had a season several years ago [00:18:15] where I was like, "I'm not really enjoying my kids right now." Like, this is, you know, they're kinda going through [00:18:20] stages. I needed to mature. I needed to step up in my parenting. you know, they were [00:18:25] kinda growing faster than my parenting skills were at the time.
And I was, I was frustrated, but [00:18:30] then it's like the Lord just, like, snapped me out of it and said, "Fight to [00:18:35] like your kids. Fight to enjoy them." Of course, I, I like my kids. I love my [00:18:40] kids. You c- don't hear me wrong here. But, fight to truly have a family that [00:18:45] enjoys each other. And when I made that shift, our [00:18:50] ent- and Scott and I did together, our entire lives changed.
Our entire And I can [00:18:55] see why. I mean, just pushing through [00:19:00] is not God's heart for family and marriage. I mean, Jesus himself [00:19:05] talks about life abundant, life in all of its [00:19:10] fullness. It's like, I don't think that's just a pipe dream. I think [00:19:15] it's actually what he offers us when we become sanctified and healed. [00:19:20] And a big healing, curveball, a [00:19:25] big healing opportunity is marriage, right?
Debra: It is, It is, [00:19:30] sanctifying through and through. And obviously, so is parenting. Because as we get close to people [00:19:35] in relationships, they're like the sandpaper. They just start to [00:19:40] rub up against us, expose our wounds, expose our flaws, [00:19:45] expose our coping skills, expose our expectations. And it's like we [00:19:50] get a mirror in relationships.
The question is, when these things are [00:19:55] exposed, will we hide or will we heal? And, and my [00:20:00] prayer is that we would even turn in into our marriage and say, "God, these things are [00:20:05] getting exposed in us, in both of us. Help us to heal."
Christy: Yeah. [00:20:10] And isn't it a-- I've been married 27 years now, [00:20:15] and when I look back at who Scott and I were when we first got married at [00:20:20] 22, I-- we're completely different people, but Even our theology has [00:20:25] changed. I mean, just so much has changed, and I think the Lord has really blessed us in this way, we just [00:20:30] have grown together and given each other the space to [00:20:35] grapple with things, wrestle with things, and just kind of...
But we've never... Like, it's like we've [00:20:40] always had that anchor of, this is another show, but I almost feel like I love [00:20:45] what you said about marriage being r- like a redemptive sanctification opportunity. [00:20:50] But I don't think you need marriage for it, right? Just, like, to grow and, and know the Lord.
But I do, [00:20:55] definitely think that it provides the opportunity for that. I see that in, in our own lives.
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Christy: Now, I wanna talk about spring a little bit, [00:23:40] and maybe the woman who, looking back, right? 'Cause these aren't necessarily in order. It's [00:23:45] not like over 40 years of marriage, it's 10 years of spring, 10 y- right?
It-- That's not what you're [00:23:50] saying. talk to the woman who, looking back, maybe sees a pattern that was there from the [00:23:55] very beginning that she kinda overlooked 'cause maybe the kids were little and [00:24:00] everyone was tired, maybe over money or disagreements or different opinions that [00:24:05] she kinda pushed to the side.
I think that happens a lot, especially during busy [00:24:10] seasons of raising kids. It's hard to stop and take the time to make sure that you're [00:24:15] attentive to, you know, when the, the baby's just woke up from the nap and has a poopy [00:24:20] diaper, right? It's not the same. talk to the woman who maybe she's already built her [00:24:25] life around her marriage and she's, you know, finally wants to look at it.
What should she be [00:24:30] looking for? What should she pick first?
Debra: It's interesting because when [00:24:35] I think about the season of spring, the early stages of a [00:24:40] relationship where you're wanting to do things differently, right? So [00:24:45] even if you've been married for 20 years, you can decide, you know what? It's time to go back [00:24:50] to spring, because spring is a season of intentionality.[00:24:55]
Spring is a season of planting [00:25:00] new seeds and of purging the [00:25:05] weeds. so in any stage of a relationship, you can start to notice, okay, these weeds are [00:25:10] overgrown. It is time to till the ground and do some work [00:25:15] that maybe we haven't done in a while. I think about whenever spring comes around and it's time [00:25:20] to garden, and, just the opportunity to create [00:25:25] something new that won't necessarily be [00:25:30] present overnight, but I know that if I'm being intentional [00:25:35] in this season, that something's gonna come from this.
I'm intentional [00:25:40] to sow seeds. And two seeds I talk about in the season of spring that I think are really [00:25:45] crucial are the seeds of friendship and the seeds of faith. [00:25:50] And I think sometimes in marriage, especially if you've been married for a long time, [00:25:55] you do forget the seeds of friendship in the sense that you can have a [00:26:00] life filled with purpose, but no pleasure in one [00:26:05] another.
You know, you got so much purpose, you're managing a life and family and [00:26:10] kids, and, like, you've got this great business strategy, husband and wife, like, but [00:26:15] we're lacking in pleasure. We're lacking in enjoying one another. [00:26:20] We're lacking in sharing our lives together. And so I think, [00:26:25] you know, as we look back, we're going to notice patterns.
You could [00:26:30] notice patterns, I could notice patterns of, like, man, 10 years ago when the kids [00:26:35] were young, I've started seeing stuff that I'm still seeing today. The question, though, is [00:26:40] now what? Now what? How do I begin to change those patterns? [00:26:45] By being intentional to do things differently, by being intentional to plant [00:26:50] new seeds, by being intentional not to repeat the patterns that I [00:26:55] have seen.
and the danger is looking at your spouse to start the process
Christy: Right. I [00:27:00] was just gonna ask you about that.
Debra: Instead, like what does that look like for me to [00:27:05] change the pattern? I think that's the, the most powerful ingredient I have is [00:27:10] the ingredient that I bring to this recipe. So really starting there
Christy: [00:27:15] Yeah. I mean, I mean, that's, that's everything, right? Every good therapist, it's like [00:27:20] you... I remem- I remember with my very first therapist experience, [00:27:25] I was having difficulty with a... It wasn't my marriage, it was another [00:27:30] relationship that I wanted to keep, and I was at the point where I didn't know if I h- I could keep it.
Debra: [00:27:35] Yeah
Christy: And so I saw a therapist, and sure [00:27:40] enough, you know, after
she heard me complain about them [00:27:45] for an hour straight, "Let's talk about you." And that is when the healing [00:27:50] began. That is when the work... It was so good. It was-- I just, I'm so thankful for that [00:27:55] time because I, I was young. I was young, and I didn't know that's where change starts, [00:28:00] that it changes.
I can't change other people. I can change me
Debra: So even [00:28:05] things like, why am I reacting this way? Why does this [00:28:10] feel so difficult for me? Why is insecurity coming up? [00:28:15] Why do I get so angry when he says this? are there needs that I haven't [00:28:20] expressed in a healthy way? Am I actually communicating in a [00:28:25] good, positive way, or am I communicating with resentment?
Do I bring [00:28:30] encouragement to the table, or am I constantly bringing critique? Like, there's [00:28:35] so much that we can analyze about what we bring to the table, and, and I think [00:28:40] that's where we have to start because if I change the ingredients that I bring to the [00:28:45] table, sometimes that's enough to change the entire recipe
Christy: Sometimes. [00:28:50] And, and sometimes it just gives you-- When your side of the street is a little bit more cleaned [00:28:55] up, enables you to just see things a little bit more clearly, right?
Debra: And to approach your [00:29:00] spouse with clarity
Christy: Yes. So I wanna ask you, in the [00:29:05] couples that you've worked with, 'cause the-- you know, we talked about the seasons abstractly, can you name a [00:29:10] couple of things that are pretty common concretely that you've seen couples work [00:29:15] through?
Debra: so many things. I think this kinda will move [00:29:20] us into the season of summer, but, um, emotional connection or [00:29:25] lack thereof is a really big pattern that [00:29:30] I see in Christian couples where we're doing all the right things spiritually. [00:29:35] My husband's not having an affair. My husband might not be looking at [00:29:40] porn.
My husband might not loosen his boundaries with other women, but I don't [00:29:45] feel connected to him. That's kind of the theme that I hear so [00:29:50] often in Christian marriages. We just don't feel connected. "So wh- what do [00:29:55] you mean by that?" "Well, I'm not sure what I mean. I just feel like we're not connected."
[00:30:00] "Do you have sex?" "Yes, we do, uh, you know, every so often." "Do you have conversations?" [00:30:05] "Yes, we do every so often. We talk, but I just don't feel connected." [00:30:10] Often, that's just a lack of emotional intimacy, and they don't even know [00:30:15] how to put their finger on it. They don't even really have a pulse on what is even [00:30:20] emotional intimacy and how do we get there?
So I would say at least half of the [00:30:25] couples that I work with, and even those who are in crisis, this is the [00:30:30] one thing that they're really missing, is that emotional intimacy, and I think [00:30:35] it's something that Christians put on the back burner, or they don't even [00:30:40] know how to identify it. They might understand spiritual intimacy.
Let's talk [00:30:45] about God. Let's pray every once in a while. But emotional [00:30:50] intimacy is a language that many people don't have, and I've helped so many couples work [00:30:55] through that. and, and I have so many practical suggestions, but, [00:31:00] but I want you to think of the season of summer as that season of building [00:31:05] deeper intimacy.
So, so if you don't mind, I'm gonna give you a [00:31:10] 90-second hack
Christy: Yeah,
Debra: intimacy When we think [00:31:15] about emotional connection, what we're really talking about is [00:31:20] creating space for your spouse [00:31:25] to share their feelings and for you to share your [00:31:30] feelings with them. The giving and receiving of emotional [00:31:35] interactions, that's what we're talking about.
And there's [00:31:40] levels of conversations. Level one is the facts, the basic conversation, what are [00:31:45] you up to? Where are you going? You know. Level two is your opinions. It's, it's [00:31:50] more of your, your judgment call, your opinions. I like this. I don't [00:31:55] like that. This is what I think about that team. This is what I think about this curriculum.
It's all about [00:32:00] your opinions. Then level three is the deeper level. It's about your feelings, [00:32:05] and many couples don't have conversations in level three very [00:32:10] often. Um, they were never taught. They're not comfortable with it. They don't even know [00:32:15] what they're feeling, much less trying to communicate it to their spouse.
So there's a [00:32:20] learning curve to emotional intimacy. But here's my 90-second hack. [00:32:25] When you walk in the door Find your spouse [00:32:30] and give them 90 seconds of uninterrupted [00:32:35] attention is the first thing, affection is the [00:32:40] second thing, and the third thing is an emotional [00:32:45] connection. Some sort of an emotional exchange.
So what does that look like? I always say the person who's [00:32:50] walking in should be the one to go find. So let's say I walk in [00:32:55] after coming home from a meeting, [00:33:00] and I go seek my husband. And, and so I [00:33:05] find him, and he knows, you know, because we've talked about this is what we're gonna be practicing. I call them [00:33:10] connecting points.
We're gonna be practicing connecting points. So I approach him [00:33:15] and I say, "Hey, I, I would just love to connect with you for a minute." And he maybe is [00:33:20] looking at his phone. He puts his phone down, and I look at him [00:33:25] for 90 seconds. I give him affection, attention, [00:33:30] and then I ask a question that will solicit some sort of an emotional [00:33:35] response such as, "Hey, tell me about the best part of your day today."
Or, "What do you... what were [00:33:40] your highs and lows from today?" Or, "How are you feeling and what do you need?" [00:33:45] Some sort of a question to kind of engage, and during that [00:33:50] I'm, I'm offering affection. maybe my hand is on his shoulder, or I, I [00:33:55] hold his hand, or I give him a big hug. I'm offering attention. I'm not [00:34:00] distracted.
I'm not on the phone when I walk in the door. I'm not finishing up an email. And here's what I say, [00:34:05] 90 seconds. Anybody can do that if they care enough. [00:34:10] 90 stinking seconds. and if you could do that [00:34:15] five times a day, I can't even tell [00:34:20] you how that will take your marriage to the next level of feeling connected with one [00:34:25] another.
Five times a day. Just those little practices see what [00:34:30] happens. See what happens. I, I... It's a, it's a challenge. Like, who's... Are you willing to take the challenge, [00:34:35] Christy?
Christy: I love it. I, w-, Scott and I have the type of marriage [00:34:40] where I walk in and say, "I'm lonely."
Debra: You make it really obvious,
Christy: Yeah. Yeah. Or [00:34:45] I just say... Like yesterday I went to cook dinner, and I walked into his office [00:34:50] and I said, "Hey, will you grab your computer and work at the island [00:34:55] while I cook dinner?
Debra: Yeah
Christy: I'm feeling isolated," I told [00:35:00] him.
And, he just unplugged his computer, came down, and of course he didn't get
Debra: you are at being[00:35:05]
clear
Christy: well, I just think, I'm thinking, uh, I'm getting [00:35:10] emotional with you saying that because I see how a couple [00:35:15] doing this in six months will be unrecognizable
Debra: I agree. You're gonna [00:35:20] laugh at this, Christy. I, I tell couples that I work with in my practice [00:35:25] five connecting points a day. last year [00:35:30] when I was reiterating,
Christy: be more babies in the house.
Debra: last... I know, seriously. [00:35:35] Last year when I was reiterating this to my husband, I was, I was tell- [00:35:40] talking to him, you know, about the concept of connecting points and that.
I was like, "Honey, 15 connecting [00:35:45] points a day is what I recommend." I don't recommend 15, I recommend five, but I was [00:35:50] like, like really upping the ante, and he was like, "15?" He's [00:35:55] like, "How can people do that?" I'm like, "You gotta figure it out, hon. We gotta [00:36:00] get 15 in a day."
Christy: Well, but here's the thing is what, what I think, so [00:36:05] this going back to the skills, I'm seeing how it's all connecting, Debra, because what you're doing is you're [00:36:10] building skills. You're gonna-- It's gonna be rough in the beginning. Think of a- anytime you learn something [00:36:15] new, and here's the thing, and this is why it's also exciting me about, it's, I just feel like the, [00:36:20] the projects that you and I work on are very different but extremely complementary because I'm [00:36:25] viewing the reason why we're adults that don't have these skills is because we were not given these skills [00:36:30] as kids.
We were told not to have our feelings. We were told that the feeling [00:36:35] itself made our parents uncomfortable, so they just did anything to either dismiss it or [00:36:40] whatever. and so especially in Christian circles with kind of more a, a lot of us were raised on a [00:36:45] little bit more of the authoritarian side.
And so I see how that plays [00:36:50] out in Christian couples today, where it's almost like you have to go back to the [00:36:55] basics to even learn these skills to be comfortable in discomfort, to [00:37:00] be even just, I was thinking vulnerability, how [00:37:05] that raw, you know,
Debra: The
season of fall, vulnerability. That's when, that's [00:37:10] where, that's where we move in to fall because it's, you [00:37:15] know, s- moving out of intimacy. And, and for those who are struggling with intimacy, there's emotional, [00:37:20] spiritual, physical. We kinda cover all of that in the s- the section of summer. [00:37:25] So I just want you to know there's something for you there.
I think it's good for us to kinda, [00:37:30] touch on each season, and you mentioned vulnerability.
I have worked with couples who've been [00:37:35] married for 10 plus years who haven't learned [00:37:40] to be vulnerable, who, who've been keeping secrets, [00:37:45] who haven't been able to feel comfortable enough [00:37:50] to bare all inside and out, you know?
Like, this [00:37:55] is who I am, this is what I'm struggling with. And I talk about in, in the season of [00:38:00] fall, things that you should never hide from your [00:38:05] spouse. We almost do, we do almost, like, a disclosure chapter [00:38:10] where I talk you through, I think it's, like, 10 to 12 things that [00:38:15] you should sit down and discuss with your spouse if you never have.
[00:38:20] One of
them
is your past, um, your [00:38:25] past secrets, your past [00:38:30] relationships, your past dynamics, family of origin issues. There's a [00:38:35] whole lot of different categories about our past, our [00:38:40] history. So it kinda gives you some categories to work [00:38:45] through. secret sins that may have been from the past, may still be in the [00:38:50] present, that it's like, "Do I really share that?
Is that, like, too much?" people struggle with [00:38:55] how much is too much, and I think we've actually been taught the lie that [00:39:00] some things are better left unsaid in a marriage, which I think is [00:39:05] absolutely a lie from the pit of hell. Because when things are kept in the darkness, that's where [00:39:10] they grow.
That's where they, they really get their grip on us. So everything [00:39:15] from sins, to struggles, to medical issues, [00:39:20] mental health issues, family of origin issues that came [00:39:25] up. I kinda explain, like, the importance of going through your timeline with your spouse and [00:39:30] just bringing them into parts of you that maybe you never have [00:39:35] before, journeying with them to those places.
And I [00:39:40] love that the word, you've probably heard this before, the word intimacy is [00:39:45] reflective of into me see.
Intimacy. I want you to [00:39:50] see into me, and I wanna see into you, and I think that is [00:39:55] the epitome of what intimacy is. Like, somebody see me fully [00:40:00] and still love me, still be here for me, still be committed to me.
Like, [00:40:05] that is the most beautiful, special Feeling. [00:40:10] You mentioned the word attachment. There's nothing that attaches you more [00:40:15] than knowing your spouse in that way, and, and that's a skill set. [00:40:20] It's not necessarily like you either choose to withhold or you don't choose to withhold. [00:40:25] It's not that black and white.
For some people, they have never learned how. [00:40:30] They've never learned what to share, what not to share. Like all of these things that [00:40:35] they grew up not knowing. Do you share this? Do you not share this? So this is why I really do think [00:40:40] there's a skill set even to being transparent, vulnerable, and authentic with your [00:40:45] spouse
Christy: I love that so much, and I think that [00:40:50] really if we hide, w- we will never feel truly loved [00:40:55] because we feel like we're not showing our true selves. [00:41:00] So that's powerful, and I think you're right. I think that [00:41:05] especially women, we are told not to be too much. We're told not to [00:41:10] speak our mind.
that's powerful. I think that alone is gonna help a lot of couples. Was there anything else [00:41:15] you wanted to add about fall
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Christy: Was there anything else you wanted to add about fall
Debra: if I could stay in a season for this [00:42:05] whole podcast, it would be fall, because there's also the whole [00:42:10] thing of conflict, rupture and repair.
Christy: Oh, I can't wait to talk [00:42:15] about repair. We have to save time to talk about repair
Debra: people are not good at figuring out how to repair after conflict. They kind of just let it fizzle out and move on rather than actually r- seek to repair, actually apologize well, and, and like tie the whole thing up with a bow rather than leave all of these loose ends that then we bring into the next argument, and [00:42:20] the next argument, and the next argument.
And, and so there's a, there's a huge section in relationship skills all about apology, repair, and dealing with conflict 'cause I think a
Christy: [00:42:25] [00:42:30] Yeah Mm-hmm. [00:42:35] Yeah [00:42:40] Right [00:42:45] Mm.[00:42:50]
Debra: lot of people have not been taught how to [00:42:55] navigate conflict well. They'd rather just avoid it
Christy: Well, and I also think with parenting, [00:43:00] kids are told to apologize and just given a script,
Debra: Right
Christy: and they've [00:43:05] never actually reached the heart of the child having internal change. And [00:43:10] so we move into adulthood just, "I'm sorry," you know, saying sorry but not [00:43:15] really truly understanding repentance.
what does a good apology look like in a [00:43:20] marriage?
Debra: would say the easiest way to think about it is in three parts. [00:43:25] And it's funny because sometimes you feel like, "I said sorry. Why can't we move on?" [00:43:30] Well, because you're sorry, your apology wasn't thorough. It wasn't [00:43:35] complete. That's why we can't move on. It's not just sorry. There [00:43:40] has to be a plan in this apology.
It's not just, "I'm sorry," [00:43:45] it has to communicate more than that. So I say break it into three parts. The first part is [00:43:50] being very clear about what you're owning,
Christy: Mm-hmm.
Debra: what you did [00:43:55] wrong, and, and not how you made the person feel, [00:44:00] but what you actually did wrong. So don't say, "I'm sorry I made you feel
Christy: I [00:44:05] know.
Debra: blank."
No,
Christy: You're not five.[00:44:10]
Debra: Be sorry for what you did, not for what, how I feel. Yeah. [00:44:15]
Christy: I'm sorry that made you mad.
Debra: Yeah, exactly. That's not an apology. [00:44:20] "I'm sorry I was rude to you," that is an apology. [00:44:25] "I'm sorry I was rude. I'm sorry I didn't prioritize you. I'm [00:44:30] sorry I didn't take your feelings into consideration.
Christy: Mm-hmm.
Debra: [00:44:35] sorry my tone was harsh and unkind."
Christy: [00:44:40] Mm-hmm.
Debra: owns what I did. I would spend a few minutes with the [00:44:45] Holy Spirit before you dive into that one so you don't do it wrong, because it's so [00:44:50] easy to say, "I'm sorry I hurt you. I'm sorry you were sad. I'm sorry you got [00:44:55] angry." No. Like, what did you actually own?
And if you can't find anything to own, you're not [00:45:00] ready to apologize. So step one, own something. Step two, then [00:45:05] you validate how it made them feel.
Christy: Mm-hmm.
Debra: " I see how [00:45:10] that could have made you feel neglected by me. I see how [00:45:15] that frustrated you. I see how that could have embarrassed you in front of my [00:45:20] family. I see how..."
So own your stuff, and then number two, validate their [00:45:25] feelings.
Christy: Mm-hmm.
Debra: And then number three Communicate [00:45:30] your plan for repentance and change. Like, what are you gonna do differently? You know, moving [00:45:35] forward, I will make sure to check in with you before I X, Y, and Z. [00:45:40] Moving forward, I will prioritize you in my workday.
[00:45:45] Moving forward, I will get my anger under control before I engage [00:45:50] in a conversation because I don't wanna hurt you. What are you gonna do differently? [00:45:55] Bring that to the table. I promise you if you do those three things, you're [00:46:00] not gonna go in a constant loop for five hours because your apology will [00:46:05] be so thorough that, that your spouse will feel so heard, so validated, and [00:46:10] you've come up with the plan.
It's like they didn't even have to. You came up with the plan. [00:46:15] A- and just think about how we teach our kids to apologize versus, [00:46:20] like, what people typically do when they apologize, the sorry, not sorry. Like, [00:46:25] "Yeah, I'm sorry," and then we move on and we don't say it with the right tone. We're not really [00:46:30] sincere. So even just learning how to [00:46:35] apologize is a skill
Christy: Absolutely. And I think about my [00:46:40] kids. There's a lot of apologizing that happens in my house,
both me and Scott to the [00:46:45] kids, to each other, the kids to each other. But one practice we started to implement [00:46:50] that goes back to the skills is, and I could see [00:46:55] where spouses would need to do this, especially if they were never taught growing up themselves, [00:47:00] is w- we will often, I'll often add to, and I [00:47:05] model this too, I say, "If I was to do this over again, this [00:47:10] is what I would do."
And the reason why I started doing that with my kids is because we're very good at [00:47:15] telling kids what not to do, but not actually training them on what a [00:47:20] proper, healthy response would be
in that. in that
Debra: I love that. [00:47:25] If I knew what I, if I knew then what I know now, if I knew that five [00:47:30] minutes
ago, here's what I would've done differently
Christy: Yeah. Yeah, and that's done wonders [00:47:35] because when the other kid hears it from the other kid, it just adds [00:47:40] compassion, I think, empathy.
They feel the empathy and compassion from their [00:47:45] sibling that, uh, that is very powerful. But we-- Scott and I had to model it first to, [00:47:50] to do it. I think that repair, I just don't think [00:47:55] rupture is just-- Okay, so people will view and avoid [00:48:00] rupture at all costs to the, to the extent of being unhealthy, [00:48:05] where the work on the cross was repair.
I think that this, one of [00:48:10] the most healing things I have experienced in my life is [00:48:15] repair, repair with relationships. Can you talk a little bit about that? Because it, g- [00:48:20] you know, as soon as Adam and Eve sinned in the garden, God created the redemption plan[00:48:25]
Debra: I know. And
Christy: the repair.
He wa- He wanted us so bad [00:48:30] that He immediately made the plan to get us back
Debra: That's the [00:48:35] beautiful thing. It's like conflict exposes my sin, [00:48:40] your sin, my struggle, your struggle. and many of us are used to ending [00:48:45] relationships there.
Christy: Yeah
Debra: to know that we can go further than that, to say, "I see your [00:48:50] sin, I see your struggle, I see your heart for change, and I want you [00:48:55] back. I wanna be reconnected to you,"
that's why [00:49:00] repair is so powerful because it's like, well, now that you know me and you know how [00:49:05] mean I can be, but you still want me
Christy: You s-- yeah. You still love me? You [00:49:10] still wanna be connected to me? Like, we're communicating such a [00:49:15] deep love in our desire for repair [00:49:20] that, that I think is the heart of God. I think it's the heart of God for [00:49:25] us that we get to model to each other in marriage. And, again, we're [00:49:30] looking for a repentant heart, change, he- healing.
Debra: It's not just bringing anybody back over [00:49:35] and over again. We're not talking about toxic behaviors. What we're talking about [00:49:40] is the intimacy that comes after rupture when [00:49:45] we enter into the process of repair, and I really do think that's God's heart for [00:49:50] relationships, or he wouldn't have said to forgive people 70 times seven, you [00:49:55] know?
allow there to be restoration. And I really think when we do [00:50:00] repair right, it takes us deeper. It makes the [00:50:05] relationship stronger. It makes the connection so much more [00:50:10] fulfilling and, and close. so there is beauty [00:50:15] because the relationship can get stronger through repair
Christy: It, it is that ultimate [00:50:20] secure attachment. I love you no matter what. And, that's God's [00:50:25] lo- He sees it. He sees all of us and all of the ugliness, and He [00:50:30] loves us no matter what. We weren't supposed to cry on a marriage show. I'm crying. You're probably fine [00:50:35] 'cause you deal with this stuff every day.
But it's just that, for the listener today, that is so what [00:50:40] I want for her. That is so what I want for her. Did we talk [00:50:45] enough about winter? Was there anything you wanted to add?
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This is [00:52:45] something completely free to homeschooling families that I am so proud to be a [00:52:50] part of. A while back, I built a directory, and what it was was a [00:52:55] directory trying to help homeschool families find doctors and service providers who wouldn't give them a hard time [00:53:00] just because they're homeschooling.
You've been in that situation where you're getting that side eye. The directory started [00:53:05] out really small and really scrappy, and it was born out of frustration, really. I was [00:53:10] sick of ignorant pediatricians telling moms that they shouldn't homeschool. But here's what is so cool. [00:53:15] It has grown into something I never expected, a real [00:53:20] robust community, a whole economy, colleges, businesses, [00:53:25] curriculum, doctor's offices, reading specialists, homeschool graduates who are now in business, [00:53:30] young entrepreneurs who get a free account, by the way.
You name it, they are all [00:53:35] saying, "We're in your corner. We wanna work with homeschool families." It's called the Christy [00:53:40] Faith List, and it is completely free for homeschooling families to search, and I am so [00:53:45] proud of it. And if you are a business owner or part of an organization that loves to work with [00:53:50] homeschool families, please sign yourself up.
We wanna know who you are, and we wanna find the [00:53:55] people who support us, so we can support you back. A link to the Christy Faith List is in the [00:54:00] show notes. Go search for somebody right now
Christy: Did we talk enough about winter? Was there [00:54:05] anything you wanted to add?
Debra: Well, yeah. I think winter is important because a-a lot of people [00:54:10] lose hope in winter. It's like, "We've been married for 30 [00:54:15] years, and we're kinda just disconnected and [00:54:20] apathetic and, and this must be how [00:54:25] relationships end, and this is just how it goes, and we can [00:54:30] just be roommates." You know?
But the beautiful thing [00:54:35] about seasons, and especially the season of winter, is that they're not meant to [00:54:40] be stayed in.
They're meant to be passed through. And God [00:54:45] makes seasons to be passed through for a reason. So [00:54:50] winter was not meant to be stayed in. And I really believe that [00:54:55] if you use the season of winter for exposure, [00:55:00] for healing, for turning inward, it can usher in a [00:55:05] season of spring all over again. And I have seen that happen [00:55:10] time and time again with the clients that I work with.
I really believe that there is hope [00:55:15] even in the season of winter, that spring can come again and the relationship [00:55:20] can feel like something new is starting. No matter what stage you might be [00:55:25] in, no matter what you've experienced, no matter what heartbreak, what hardships, what struggles, [00:55:30] spring can come again.
And so that's the hope that I think we [00:55:35] want to leave with people is that you're not supposed to stay here, you know?
Christy: [00:55:40] Yeah. I could see too where this is the season [00:55:45] where external circumstances could throw you into it.
Debra: Yeah, totally
Christy: [00:55:50] loss of a loved one, a miscarriage, a, financial [00:55:55] distress could throw a couple into winter where it's [00:56:00] uncovering some things that the Lord wants to work with. [00:56:05] And, for couples to lean into that together [00:56:10] is powerful
Debra: It really is. It is so powerful.[00:56:15]
Christy: I'm struggling with-- If it's financial, I'm struggling with God's provision. Or [00:56:20] If you've lost a loved one, it's I'm struggling to understand how a good God could let this happen to [00:56:25] us. those deep, hard questions that I think are necessary
Debra: [00:56:30] Yeah, absolutely. And I think about just the analogy. The thing I [00:56:35] loved about this book and about writing it, Christy, the analogies were [00:56:40] so rich. So rich. It was probably, like, the most creative, [00:56:45] beautiful, artistic project because there's so many real-life [00:56:50] analogies to each season. But even now I'm thinking about when you are outside...[00:56:55]
I was watching this survival show and, you know, they were outside in this, [00:57:00] like, frigid cold temperatures trying to survive, and all they [00:57:05] had was one another, and so they had to huddle together to protect themselves, to [00:57:10] use one another's body heat against the elements. Isn't that [00:57:15] a beautiful picture of, it's like us against the world?
Because if we isolate [00:57:20] right now, we will die. A- a- sometimes you are thrown into a really hard [00:57:25] season of loss, of grief, of stress, of [00:57:30] trauma, things coming at you, and your world feels like it's falling apart. [00:57:35] Lean in to one another. See what God wants to expose in each of [00:57:40] us. How does He wanna transform us?
This isn't just about longevity. [00:57:45] It's about transformation. And what if winter was just what [00:57:50] we needed to usher us into transformation? Like, God doesn't waste a [00:57:55] thing. Even a season of winter will not be wasted in the hands [00:58:00] of God when we partner with Him. And so I really hope that gives someone [00:58:05] hope today of like, you know what?
I've gotten way too comfortable with this season, [00:58:10] and it's time to turn the page. It's time to usher in [00:58:15] something new
Christy: Isn't it beautiful too how [00:58:20] as you're speaking about the seasons, I'm thinking of all the Bible verses to get us through each [00:58:25] one. So I was thinking of winter and dark times that I've had in my [00:58:30] life, and I was thinking, "This is why God gave us the Psalms."
Debra: Hmm.
Christy: You [00:58:35] know? And I just think that the Lord knows.
He knows everything that we could possibly be [00:58:40] facing in our lives. And, uh, and so I just think that's incredibly [00:58:45] powerful that we can look to Him and His Word and, and lean into our, our spouse [00:58:50] and get through the hard stuff together for sure. it's interesting 'cause I think of you've heard of [00:58:55] couples who break up when all their kids finally leave for college, right?
And you can, you can, I can [00:59:00] absolutely see how you're just thrown into different seasons. But having language, Deborah, to [00:59:05] recognize, that's half the battle. "Oh, we're in a
blank season. Let's do this." [00:59:10] So I think that framework is gonna be really helpful and powerful for a lot of [00:59:15] people right now. Deborah, anything before we wrap up the show?
Something that you wanted to make sure [00:59:20] that you shared? And I also want people to know about the Deborah Falada Counselors [00:59:25] Network. I know that there's women in Thrive Homeschool Community who have been so [00:59:30] incredibly enriched by your well-trained counselors. I can't even tell you [00:59:35] how your network has been an answer to prayer for Thrive Homeschool Community, when a [00:59:40] problem is a little bit bigger than a homeschooling problem, we now have a place to send women, and it, I can't [00:59:45] tell you how thankful we have been as a team over there for [00:59:50] you.
But is there any other resources or, uh, we can buy the book on Amazon. Anything
else? Yeah, [00:59:55] go ahead. Share what you need to share.
Debra: Yes, I'm so excited to share all of these resources with you. [01:00:00] some of them free, like the podcast, it's called Talk To Me, and a [01:00:05] lot of different resources that we have. And then all of the different books. This one's called [01:00:10] Relationship Skills. Uh, you can get it where books are- anywhere books are sold or [01:00:15] deborahfalada.com.
And, for those who do feel like they need some deeper [01:00:20] support, we would be honored to journey with you on the road of healing. [01:00:25] We've got a team of faith forward counselors who are clinically trained. [01:00:30] they are amazing. I, highly recommend this team. I vetted them and [01:00:35] curated them myself. I trained them, and I'm just really in close proximity with them.[01:00:40]
And we meet people virtually and just truly [01:00:45] allow God's healing and hope, to pour into families and marriages. Like, that's [01:00:50] really our heart. So if that sounds like something you would be interested in, we have an awesome [01:00:55] partnership with Thrive for a discount,
um, and we'd love to share that with you as [01:01:00] well.
Christy: Okay, great. We will put a link in the show notes for your [01:01:05] book. I also wanna make sure I have a link for "People Skills." I love that, particularly for [01:01:10] homeschoolers. We're always attacked for socialization.
Debra: a great homeschool book. I think I told you this, Christy, I'm teaching [01:01:15] a people skills class for my homeschool co-op this year for high schoolers. But even [01:01:20] as you were talking earlier, I was like, if our kids could get some of these things [01:01:25] now, if all they got was, relationship skills, emotional skills, if they were [01:01:30] emotionally and relationally healthy, they could conquer the world[01:01:35]
I can't
Christy: on 'cause that's what it's on.
Debra: I cannot [01:01:40] wait
Christy: yeah, it's in that space for sure. Uh, and I think it's much needed, especially [01:01:45] in Christian parenting circles. We need to start talking about, [01:01:50] skill-based, learning in all aspects, right?
Not just [01:01:55] homeschooling, but also in giving our kids emotional regulation, frustration tolerance, [01:02:00] and, yes, sin is sin and sin exists, but, let's talk about a couple things before [01:02:05] we go there, before we start punishing, there's a lot to talk about before we [01:02:10] run and jump to that.
So, for example, how do we get our kids to, well, let's prevent this in the first place. [01:02:15] Let's give our kids the skills so that we don't end up here
every day. [01:02:20] So I'm so excited that you agreed to come on today. I know that women are gonna be nourished [01:02:25] just hearing this. We will put all the links in the show notes and, uh, thank you, [01:02:30] Deborah, for coming on.
Debra: Thank you for having me, as always