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The Navvai Shift – AI & Business Insights
Welcome to The Navvai Shift, the podcast where business leaders in finance share their journeys, challenges, and unfiltered thoughts on artificial intelligence. We dive deep into how AI is shaping industries, uncovering real-world insights from those driving innovation.
Subscribe for expert conversations on AI, automation, and the future of business.
Hi guys, welcome back to another episode
of the Navi Shift. Today I got my
co-host Darnell and today I'm joined
with Matt Cooper. He is the co-founder
and executive chairman of Exceptional
Ventures which is a Londonbased venture
campus fund backing early stages
companies that help people live longer
and healthier. So Matt, how are you? I'm
good. Good. How are you? I'm very well,
thank you. I know I did touch on, you
know, VC and exceptional ventures very
just a little People that don't
know who you are and what it is you do,
could you give us a brief intro
introduction? Yeah, sure. So, I mean, my
background is completely different than
that. So, um, you know, from the time I
was a little boy, I wanted to be a
scientist. So, went off to school,
studied chemistry and physics and had
delusions of grandeur. So, I thought I
was going to be a cross between Albert
Einstein and Thomas Edison. When I got
to college, I met somebody who was so
much smarter than I was. Uh, probably a
good moment for me, my very best friend.
Uh, turned out he won the World Math
Olympiad when he was in high school. So,
a pretty impressive fellow and spent
some time in the lab and realized that
wasn't for me. So, went off and joined a
consultancy that led to working in their
financial services practices, which in
turn led to being part of the founding
team of Capital One Bank in the US,
usually described as the first fintech
in the world. And so, I was there for 13
years and had an amazing experience.
Left there in 1. We'd become quite a big
company. I'd moved to London by that
time, so I was responsible for their
international businesses. We'd set up
businesses in Canada, the UK, Spain,
Italy, France, and South Africa. Um, and
I was running 6,000 people in six
countries and having less fun than I was
having before. Uh, so I left. I'm very
good at leaving things. So I left
science without knowing what I wanted to
do and fell into the next step. Uh, left
Capital One without knowing what I
wanted to do. Uh, and gradually decided
what I wanted to do was advise
entrepreneurs. I love building
businesses. I didn't have a specific
thing that I wanted to do. Uh and I
guess I'm more of a a generalist than a
specialist. So started advising
entrepreneurs. It was 2001 in London. I
was told there weren't very many and
maybe I should go to California uh where
there were a few. But I was lucky. I met
some interesting ones. So for example, I
met the guys founding Octopus
Investments which I then shared for 22
years and then gradually started making
investments. It occurred to me that if I
were working with a great entrepreneur
that I thought was building a wonderful
business and I thought maybe I was
helping in some way as well and they
were raising money why wouldn't I also
invest. So gradually became an investor
at a time when there weren't very many
angel investors investing in early stage
companies. Uh over two decades made
about 200 angel investments uh mostly in
consumer companies. Uh not very much
fintech because as I said I'm a
generalist. I like learning new things
and I felt like I had done fintech. So a
few uh found myself doing more and more
in health and wellness because it's a
personal passion of mine. Uh and it's
where I think the next big opportunity
is. So you know fintech's been sort of
the big thing for 15 years. Uh in the
last year investment in health and
health tech in BC and private equity has
surpassed fintech. our understanding of
the human body and AI and things like
that are progressing so quickly that I
think there's an opportunity to do what
we do which is invest in as you said
companies that help people live longer
healthier and happier lives we coined a
term called joy span so you know people
have started talking about health span
how long you live and are healthy as
opposed to just lifespan and we talk
about joy span tell me a little bit more
about that joy span so there are a host
of things so so we think of the world in
three section questions. One is how do
you stay well as long as you can? And
that's about how do you eat well,
exercise right? How do you manage
stress, manage your sleep, have a sense
of purpose so that you stay well as long
as you can? Then given that you're going
to get sick anyway, how do you screen
and capture those things early? No one
dies of stage one cancer. They do die of
stage four cancer. So, how do you make
sure you're catching things early? And
then finally, how do you improve the
therapeutic interventions, the
pharmaceuticals, the other interventions
so that when you get sick, you have the
best chance of getting well. Um, and and
joy span for us grew out of particularly
out of the wellness side because you
know if people started talking about
health span as I said because you know
people were living long miserable lives
in nursing homes for example and and so
the goal was how do you live healthy and
vibrant as long as you can but sometimes
the answer might be something that you
wouldn't want to do. So, you know, for
example, uh at least in primates, if you
restrict their calories by 30%, they
live 20% longer. That's not something
most people would necessarily want to do
as a tradeoff. Um, never drink a glass
of wine, never eat a bite of sugar,
never travel across a time zone, go to
bed, and get up at exactly the same time
every day. So, we think there's this
thing called joy span, which is how do
you live in a way that is healthy
without taking all the fun out of
things? I mean, I know that sounds
overly simplistic, but how do you make
live a set of trade-offs? So, you want
to live long and healthy, but not at the
expense of doing everything that you
enjoy.
I see. So, I did want to ask a question.
So, I think it's clear to see that your
passion isn't like the wellness industry
other than I guess it being your
passion. What kind of first drew you to
this industry? I mean, it's a few things
probably. One is like I said, I studied
science when I was younger and I've
always had a passion for science. My
father was a doctor. We ca I came to to
sports and and activity quite late. So
my dad was a doctor, but he was purely
cerebral. So not the kind of father who
would teach you to throw a ball uh when
you were five. So I I came on to sports
quite late. I was the kid in high school
who, you know, if I got picked for your
team, you would grown and go, "Oh no, we
have Matt on our team." And then when I
got a little bit older, I took up rock
climbing, later competitive cycling, and
found that, you know, physical
challenges were as interesting as mental
ones. So, so there's the science side of
things, there's the sports side of
things and and it's just also an area
that that that's taking off, right? I
mean, that we have an aging population.
Our understanding of the human body is
progressing, you know, so rapidly. The
way that the brain works, the way that
the gut and brain are linked, it's just,
you know, there's so much new knowledge
coming out and and I love that. I love
to learn new things. How do you separate
hype from genuine product market fit
when you're elevating companies? Yeah.
So yeah, I would say one one thing, you
know, if if you know, I don't know if
you guys reach out to a lot of people
who are potential investors. I mean, one
thing that I think is really important
is is the deal flow that you see in the
first place. So I think I was really
quite lucky. I started doing this when
the the startup ecosystem in the world,
let alone in England, was about this
big. And so by being a good guy and
having integrity hopefully, and adding
value, I got to know everybody that
there was. And so I have a good
reputation which means I tend to attract
the best startups. I believe I mean that
sounds really arrogant but I believe
that when somebody is sitting and
thinking whose money do they want they
might think of Matt Cooper or
Exceptional Ventures and I believe that
the very best founders get funded no
matter what the environment is. So part
of it is who you see in the first place.
Right? If I started up today and said
hey I have some money to invest. The
only people I would see would be the
ones who didn't get money from the
people they tried first. So I would get
a a negatively selected group of
companies. I suppose the rest is
practice, right? I mean I look for
entrepreneurs who are brilliant, who are
passionate about what they do, but are
also great learners. So people who
listen and can hear diverse opinions,
are able to pivot when their initial
idea doesn't work perfectly because it
just about never does. Um so those kind
of entrepreneurs look for businesses
that there's really a need for. It's
amazing. I mean, that sounds obvious,
but it's amazing how many people come to
you with an idea for a business. And
maybe they thought of it because it's
something they would have liked, but
when you think about how many people
there really are out there who need it,
um, or whether that market's already
well served, I'll give you what what
sounds like a ridiculous example. I went
to a an entrepreneur pitch event and I,
as I was leaving, a guy ran up to me and
he said, "Oh, I loved what you said. Um,
can I talk to you for a minute?" And I
said, "Okay." And he said, "I'm a doctor
and I have this idea. I want to start a
chewable multivitamins business.
Now, you might be thinking the same
thing I am. So, I said to him, I said,
"What makes you think that's a good
idea?" And he said, "Well, because there
are a lot of people who don't like
swallowing pills." I said, "Well, that's
true, but there are two things. One is
as a doctor, you must know that almost
every study that's ever been done
suggests that most people don't need
multivitamins. And number two, the aisle
is already full of chewable ones as well
as non- chewable ones. So
this is a business with no no need.
That's an extreme and silly case. But
you know, does it does the solution you
have satisfy a real problem? Who does it
solve it for? Is it at a price that that
they're willing to pay? Is it defensible
in any way or can anybody just copy you
if it works and do it better than you
just did? I think it's a matter of
practice. And again, you know, a huge
amount of it is is the entrepreneur.
When do you think is the right time to
pivot? Depends what you what you mean by
pivot. I guess for me I wasn't thinking
about your whole business was a disaster
and you need to pack up, go home and do
something else. I was thinking about you
know people have plans for how they're
going to distribute. They think they're
going to be a BTOC company and it turns
out that that is cost prohibitive or the
people they thought they were going to
reach are too hard to reach. Um well
maybe they can be a B2B company. So, I
was talking to a company this morning
that wants to provide digital pediatric
care because pediatric care in the UK is
quite poor. If you try to make an
appointment with a doctor for your
child, there's a 75% chance they won't
be pediatrically trained at all. And so,
we were talking about how they were
going to distribute. And we were talking
about BTOC, but we were talking about
B2B TOC. So partnerships with things
like Mom's Net or with nurseries or
places where the where the right people
congregate and and the organization
that's sort of in between already has
some credibility. So you know being able
to realize that that you know what you
were trying to do isn't going to work
and thinking about what else might be
worth doing I would describe as a pivot.
But I also think that you know an
entrepreneur that that that's the most
impressive is one that's already thought
about those possibilities. I give you an
example. A lot of what we do is is
science-based. And I was working with a
company that works in crop genetics. A
lot of scientists will present their
plan of getting from A to Z as they have
to go to from A to B to C to D all the
way to Z. And each one of those is
something new they have to invent. Well,
and if each one of those has like a 90%
chance of working, the chance of them
all working is still close to zero. So
this particular geneticist I met said
look you know we need to invent this but
if for some reason we can't then we can
do this or we can do this or we can do
this or we can do this and had the whole
thing thought of as much more of a
flowchart than just a series of steps
and that kind of intellectual
flexibility and and ability to pivot and
change is kind of more what I meant. So
do you see that regularly? Like is it a
thing where the entrepreneurs that come
to you Matt, they have like a kind of
spider diagram of where a business can
go or are they just very tunnel vision
focused where just linear? Yeah. So I I
think I think too often very linearly
and I think that's like I said that's
one of the things that separates the
best from the worst is a realization
that it's probably not going to work out
exactly the way I thought it was. And so
having alternate plans, having multiple
pathways to success, and simply having
the mindset that says, okay, when I hit
a wall, I can try to keep bashing my
head through it and and maybe I will
find a way through it, but maybe I also
ought to look for paths around. And so I
think there's there's a sort of mental
agility that a good entrepreneur needs
to have. Absolutely. And on the topic of
piercing, I did want to ask Matt, are
there like would you say companies
that's got like a lot of synergy for
example like mental health companies,
fem techch or alternate nutrition that
are maybe just scratching the surface in
terms of innovation or is there like a
lot of unmet needs in terms of these
industries? That's Yeah, look, I I think
I think in healthcare in general um we
barely scratched the surface. I mean,
we're moving so quickly, whether it's
understanding the root causes of
depression and the fact that that is
almost certainly many different
illnesses and therefore developing a a
wider array of treatments, moving toward
personalized medicine in general,
understanding the gut biome. You know,
you mentioned feech and female
healthcare. I mean, most most studies
were done on men for a hundred years and
then the assumption is that if you just
treat women like little men, that'll be
the right answer when it clearly isn't
always. pediatric care the same way very
few studies done there. The AI is
accelerating drug development. Another
example, stress management and mental
health care, the use of psychedelics in
healthcare. Uh the use of of wearables
and electronics in stress reduction in
data collection, helping people with
sleep, stress management. I think all of
these areas we've hardly scratched the
surface.
So why do you think there actually is
that lack of awareness and I guess what
does exceptional ventures do to kind of
fly the flag of wellness and obviously
the healthare space? Yeah. So so
actually you know it's funny. I I think
that lack of awareness of the subject is
no longer so much of the issue. You know
you can't pick up a paper today without
reading about wellness. That word is
everywhere. Wellness uh and some
celebrities endorsement of a new
supplement or a new wearable device or
something. I think one of the biggest
problems now is separating the the the
fact from the fiction. Um, you know, a
bunch of the stuff that's being sold is
garbage science. It's junk science. Um,
and in some cases being sold by real
scientists who have perjured themselves.
I mean, there's a guy named David
Sinclair who's a bonafide Harvard
longevity researcher was chairing
several longevity organizations. uh he's
decided that he'd rather sell junk to
people, including a dog food that he
claims will let your dog live many the
years longer. Uh his his his ex-colagues
have lambasted him. He's been forced to
resign from those positions. Seven of
the 12 companies that he's founded have
failed and yet he's worth $und00 million
and his ex-colagues are living in
faculty housing. So, you know, one of
the biggest problems is that as a
consumer is bad in financial services,
but it's worth it worse in health. You
know, if you're sick or worried about
yourself and your children, you need to
go no further than Instagram or Tik Tok
to find a thousand people promising you
a supplement that will regrow your hair,
make sure you never have another bad
night's sleep, you'll never feel stress
or anxiety again, you'll basically be
Superman. There's no regulation of those
claims. Most of them are baloney. And
increasingly the the sector is
attracting people. You know in the
beginning the health tech sector
attracted really talented really
purpose-driven entrepreneurs who wanted
to change human health for the better.
Now people are realizing it's a good
place to get rich. And I don't mind
people getting rich because of course
you know to touch as many lives as
possible even a good company has to grow
and succeed. And and everybody should
get rich along the way. I'm a good
capitalist but not by selling junk and
not by selling false hope. You know, the
the people people lambast their doctors,
right? I only got 10 minutes with my
doctor. He misdiagnosed me. It was
terrible. But but your doctor at least
has the hypocratic oath. So he or she
won't hurt you on purpose, right? If you
go into your doctor and you say, you
know, my chest hurts. I want you to do
open heart surgery. Here's a million
pounds. And your doctor knows you're
having acid reflux because you ate a bad
burger at lunch. Your doctor's not going
to do open heart surgery. If if he was a
banker, he would. And then when he was
challenged, he would just say, "Well, I
sold the customer what he asked for."
And a lot of the wellness industry is
starting to look like that because the
guy selling you wellness supplements
doesn't have a hypocratic oath. His
products are not regulated and so forth.
So, so it's a real worry to me. So, how
do you differentiate between what's real
and what's fake? If you're just a
regular person, I don't know, that's
just looking like you said to just
something simple, some multivitamins to
make them more active and don't feel as
tired. Like how do you I think I think
it's amazingly difficult as as the man
on the street, right? I mean, you know,
take financial services for example,
pretty complicated and it's regulated.
So, you know, there are some controls on
how much garbage I can try to sell you.
And people look to experts. They look
to, let's say, Martin Lewis and
money-saving expert if they want
impartial advice. And I think he's done
a good job at building what most people
see perceive to be impartial. you know
there's a business a consumer protection
business like which I think in the
health business and the wellness
business it doesn't exist yet actually
and so most people don't have the time
the energy or the expertise to do their
own homework and so I think it's really
dangerous it's one of the things that's
on our agenda is thinking about how we
can perhaps in conjunction with other
good voices in the industry maybe set up
some kind of foundation or some kind of
educational or impartial evaluator I And
obviously we try to assess and we do
assess. We bring a lot of expertise to
bear. We don't invest in a company
unless what it's selling really really
works. But educating the customer is
hard because people want magic pills. So
the easier it is and the bigger the
promise, the more likely I am to jump at
it. Uh the government hasn't yet
regulated things. And here's an example.
You know, even even when consumers do
know. So we knew 50 years ago that
smoking caused lung cancer and killed
people. So, we told them,
but they kept smoking. Then we then we
put pictures of diseased lungs on the
pack, but they kept smoking. Then we
taxed them like 2,000%. So, people who
couldn't even afford to buy their kids
birthday presents would still buy
cigarettes. And they kept smoking. And
people and smoking didn't start to drop
until the government stepped in and
said, "You can't smoke in public spaces.
You can't smoke in restaurants. You
can't smoke in the car with your
children." And then and then uh smoking
started to fall. So, I think there's
consumer education, there's government
regulation, and I think it's going to be
a long time. I think it's really hard. I
have friends come to me all the time and
say, you know, what supplements do you
take and why? What should I take? What
should I think about? You know, these
are hard questions. Uh, you know, how
often should I get myself screened? You
know, I I tell my friends they should go
to a dermatologist regularly if they had
a lot of sun when they were kids. Why?
Because you're going to get skin cancer.
You don't want to die of skin cancer.
All you need to do is get checked up
every six months and you'll never will.
There are more and more screenings
becoming available. Like I said, it used
to be for tens of thousands of dollars.
You could go spend a day in a fancy
clinic in Mayfair if you had the money
and get screened. Well, and if you
didn't have the money, tough luck. Well,
the cost down to $2,000 now and starting
to be covered by insurance. So, pretty
soon people will be able to go and get
screened. I have a friend, I think I
mentioned already, I have a friend who
just got caught uh had a stage one, very
early stage one lung cancer get caught
because he went and got a full body
screening way before symptoms would have
materialized. He's going to be fine. Um
I spoke to an inves potential investor
in our fund whose sister had just died
of breast cancer at age 33 because they
didn't catch it until it was stage four.
So, you know, supplements and what you
should take and how much you should
manage your sleep is one thing and then,
you know, getting yourself checked out
with real preventative medicine, which
is starting to emerge, is another, and
it's starting to be affordable. So, you
know, I look forward to a day when
everybody has access to that.
Nice. That's a great take. I wanted to
delve into a little bit around the tech
side of thing and probably would agree
on this, but you know, tech has changed
how funds operate just as much as how,
you know, startups build. So where are
you seeing the real impact from like
deal sourcing to supporting founders
post investment? How is how are you
seeing it impact your industry? So yeah,
so I think in our industry I mean I
think one I mean it's it's everywhere.
So on one hand simple as some of the
streamlining that you might think
already existed. So patient records are
usually handwritten by a doctor. They
get lost, they get misplaced. I mean
there's there's simple automation of a
system like that. That sounds like it
should have been done in 1980 but it's
happening now. Incredible. Another
example that sounds pretty simple, the
government put a regulation out last
year that said if you're having a major
surgery, your doctor needs to give you a
customized plan of what to do between
now and then to maximize your chances of
coming through it. Well, well, that's
fine to put the regulation in place, but
doctors don't have the ability to do
that. So, we invested in a company that
uses your information and the
information about the surgical procedure
you're going through. And let's say
you're let's say you're 50 pounds
overweight and your spouse has been
telling you to lose it for 20 years, but
you haven't paid any attention and now
you're at risk and you're having open
heart surgery in six months. Well, it
turns out that if I can get you out for
twice a day for a brisk walk between now
and then, it's too late to lose the
weight. But if I can get you out for a
brisk walk twice a day between now and
then, I might cut your odds of dying on
the table in half. So providing a person
with a simple app and a simple
capability, uh, they adhere to that
because the outcome is so stark. But
then on the other hand much more
high-tech I mean AI will I think shortly
replace doctors for diagnosing illness
right I mean a doctor was educated
however many years ago can't possibly
keep up with all the investments in the
field has only the experience of his or
her own case load so misses edge edge
cases all the time so so technology for
diagnosis I think is an enormous
opportunity
testing. Here's an example. So, you
know, current best testing for breast
cancer is a is a mammogram. Pretty
unpleasant for a woman and pretty
inaccurate. We've recently met a company
that believes it has a urine test that
will detect early stage breast cancer.
So, all kinds of new capabilities in
diagnosis, in treatment, everywhere. I
mean, you tech is tech is is part of
what's moving this this industry along
so rapidly. Is there any automations
that are playing a huge role within your
your business at the moment? Well, so
automation in some respects, an example
would be, you know, there there's we're
investors in a company called Patches,
which frontends almost every doctor's
surgery in the country now. So, when you
call, you give a list of what's
bothering you and symptoms and so forth.
It automatically triages that into
information and figures out whether
you've got an urgent need or not, way
more effectively than a receptionist or
a nurse on a phone. So there's that kind
of automation. You know, as I was
saying, there's back office automation
so that patient records and patient
information is available. A lot easier
to take care of you if I know all of
your past information rather than
starting from scratch and getting what
you may or may not remember. So the
automation of patient records and so
forth. So so huge opportunities I think.
Yeah. I mean technology in every
respect.
I did want to ask so we've done our
research into the industry and there's
been like a growing sort of recognition
in terms of the impact that VCs have
with regards to like social
responsibilities. So what impact do you
think exceptional ventures has in terms
of obviously bringing out the message
and making sure the message is
authentic? Like you said there's a lot
of messaging that that could be false.
Yeah. Yeah. So look, I mean, you know,
it's funny. I mean, when I started
investing 20 years ago, the word impact
didn't exist. Um and and you know I
cared about investing in companies that
I felt were doing good for the world by
my own uh you know random definition. Um
you know now we've got a list of ESG
guidelines and impact guidelines um that
that have been created that sort of help
define that area. And I think on the
bright side there's been a recognition
that impact does not mean mom and dad
making organic soap in the garage. It
means companies making people's lives or
the world better because I think there
used to be a view that impact meant you
know if a company was positive impact it
was going to be negative return and you
were going to make some compromise and I
think that's nonsense. I think that that
over time people want to work for they
want to invest in and they want to buy
from companies that are doing good and
so more and more I think there's
actually a penalty in reverse. If you're
not doing good, you have trouble hiring,
you have trouble getting customers, and
you have trouble getting funding. So, so
I think on the bright side, we're moving
toward a world where capitalism can be a
force for good because people want to
work for, invest in, and buy from
companies doing good. Exceptional
ventures isn't formally an impact fund.
So, we don't follow only those
guidelines. On the other hand, we think
that that investing in companies that
help people live happier, healthier,
longer lives is by definition positive
impact. So if one of our companies
doesn't happen to fit the ESG
guidelines, I'm more than confident in
telling you why it's a good thing. So,
so as an investments business, we see
ourselves as living in probably the most
impactful space that there is. I think
we take it a step further because I was
talking to you about this this sort of
junk science problem and the fact that
now everybody's realized that health
tech is the new fintech means every
entrepreneur and every investor suddenly
wants to get on the bus and a lot of
them don't have good intentions. So one
of the things we're trying to figure out
is how we create a voice for ourselves
and for the good guys in the industry.
So I mentioned David Sinclair. Like I
said, he's worth hund00 million despite
perjuring himself and despite all of his
companies failing. His colleagues kicked
him out of his chairmanship positions.
They wrote nasty letters that are
nowhere except in the academic press and
they live in academic housing. So who's
laughing? And so we think there's a real
opportunity to band together the good
voices. So, educating the consumer for
sure, lobbying the government for
appropriate regulation so that you can't
make nonsense claims about how this
wearable is going to cure your anxiety
overnight or this pill is going to mean
you never have another bad night's
sleep. I think that's a slow process. I
think the the the more we can get the
good voices on the right stages, the
more we can speak to the consumer and
the more we can speak to the government.
So I think you know a VC normally sees
its role as at best taking care of its
investors and its entrepreneurs and we
believe in doing that you know in a
really exceptional way pardon the pun
which is really taking care of them. I
mean we're a missiondriven fund. Our
mission is to change the world. We
believe if we do that out inevitably
will come great returns. But but we're
beginning to see our mission is bigger
than that. So how do we get involved in
educating the consumer? How do we get
involved in lobbying the government? and
how do we give other people who are on
the right side of the fence bigger
voices? And so that's something we
continue to work on. That's huge. And
you speak with so much passion. I can
actually feel it. Is that something
you've kickstarted already? Yeah. Well,
it's something I mean, we we we recently
ran an event of our own for our LPs and
prospective investors. And the night the
theme of the night was science fiction
on one hand because the stuff happening
in the health field is the stuff that a
few years ago you would have thought was
science fiction. a urine test for for
breast cancer, little nano robots that
crawl around inside your brain and
deliver drugs directly to a cumor. I
mean, things that you would have never
imagined. On the other hand, there are
people selling stuff that is pure
fiction, right? I mean, Brian Johnson is
one of the most famous voices in the
sector. He recently sponsored his own
Netflix documentary. You know, he does
cutting edge stuff like take his own
young son's blood and inject it into
himself. Now, that sounds pretty silly,
but in mice, if you inject young mouse
blood into old mice, it makes the old
mice act younger. So, it might work.
Now, 99% of drugs that get tested on
mice fail before they get to humans. So,
the odds of it working are maybe not so
good, but he's perfectly entitled to do
whatever he wants to himself. And his
whole story was he was just doing it for
himself. He describes his project as do
not die. Well, then he hosted a
documentary and now he's selling a stack
of supplements and those supplements are
largely unproven and he's selling them
for $500 and if you went and bought them
separately, even if you did want them,
they'd cost $100. And now he's talking
about making do not die a religion. And
I've actually got a video clip of him
saying that his only competitor is Jesus
Christ. So um you know th this this this
area is complicated and it's not
populated only by good guys. Absolutely.
I mean I think I think that Jesus Christ
analogy is what kind of sold it from
you. Mimi kind of realized that there
may be a lot of deluded people out there
you know. Yeah. Well look I mean you
know Yeah. And and when you're talking
about health, a little bit like money,
but even more, you're praying on
people's hopes, right? I mean, if you're
a lifelong depression or anxiety suffer,
if you have insomnia, if you have
cancer, you know, and somebody tells you
they can fix it, uh especially if it's
easy, it's pretty easy to jump at that,
right? And expecting the consumer to be
able to sort out their way through that.
Again, you know, doctors are imperfect,
but they have a hypocratic oath, which
basically says they'll try to do their
best all the time. That's why we're
horrified when we hear a story about a
doctor who did something wrong on
purpose. But it happens all the time in
the wellness field. Just really
surprised me to be honest. I just did
want to ask one final question. What
piece of advice would you give to an
investor that's just starting out in the
wellness industry? Yeah, I think I think
the most important whether in the
wellness industry or anywhere, I think
the most important advice for an
investor is to ride on the coattails of
somebody who's already established a
name for themselves, whether that's
investing in a fund or partnering with
other investors or whatever, it's very
hard to get good deal flow. So, unless
you're already an expert and you're
already entrenched in an area. So, I
mean, you know, if you've been a CEO of
a pharmaceutical company and you want to
invest in pharmaceutical startups,
probably that's not so hard. But
otherwise, it's really hard to make sure
you're seeing the right companies,
right? Because if I'm the entrepreneur
and I'm sitting here, and let's I'm
imagine I'm a great entrepreneur with a
great company. I'm thinking about whose
money do I want and I kind of have my
choice. So, I'm looking out there for
people who can add expertise, people who
I can trust. And if Matt Cooper shows up
for the first day with some money and
says, "Hey, I want to invest in health
tech." Nobody knows who I am. So, it's
connecting yourself to the ecosystem in
some way. I mean, the other thing, of
course, if you're going to be an angel
investor is you need to be prepared to
put in the time. You need to have enough
resources to diversify because early
stage investing is risky. You don't want
to make three investments. You want to
make 30 over time. So, you know, whether
whether being an angel or investing in a
fund, if you want to invest in early
stage businesses, it's figuring out, you
know, how much time and energy and money
you have. It's making sure that you
connect yourself to the ecosystem so
you're not getting the leftover junk.
And then it's a lot of practice.
I definitely want to say thank you. This
is my absolute my absolute pleasure.
This has been a brilliant conversation.
You've dropped a lot of a lot of gems.
It's like my brain is still processing
quite a lot. I'm happy we actually get
to hear it firsthand from yourself.
Yeah, it's been a great very great
conversation. Thank you. No, it was a
pleasure. Thank you for hopping on. But
yeah, people that's been another episode
of the the shift. I've been joined again
by my co-host Arnell and our exceptional
guest has been Matt Cooper. So, thank
you so much. We appreciate it. All
right. My pleasure again. Thank you. All
right. Thank you.