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A podcast at the intersection of psychology and culture that intimately explores the human experience and critiques the counseling profession. Your host, Stephanie Winn, distills wisdom gained from her practice as a family therapist and coach while pivoting towards questions of how to apply a practical understanding of psychology to the novel dilemmas of the 21st century, from political polarization to medical malpractice.
What does ethical mental health care look like in a normless age, as our moral compasses spin in search of true north? How can therapists treat patients under pressure to affirm everything from the notion of "gender identity" to assisted suicide?
Primarily a long-form interview podcast, Stephanie invites unorthodox, free-thinking guests from many walks of life, including counselors, social workers, medical professionals, writers, researchers, and people with unique lived experience, such as detransitioners.
Curious about many things, Stephanie’s interdisciplinary psychological lens investigates challenging social issues and inspires transformation in the self, relationships, and society. She is known for bringing calm warmth to painful subjects, and astute perceptiveness to ethically complex issues. Pick up a torch to illuminate the dark night and join us on this journey through the inner wilderness.
You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist ranks in the top 1% globally according to ListenNotes. New episodes are released every Monday. Three and a half years after the show's inception in May of 2022, Stephanie became a Christian, representing the crystallization of moral, spiritual, and existential views she had been openly grappling with along with her audience and guests. Newer episodes (#188 forward) may sometimes reflect a Christian understanding, interwoven with and applied to the same issues the podcast has always addressed. The podcast remains diverse and continues to feature guests from all viewpoints.
[00:00:00] Will Dobud: I used the Neurodivergence as a bit of a case study in the book because it [00:00:05] just stood out to me as we're actually missing the point of this topic [00:00:10] while simultaneously calling people typical, it's this othering. It felt like we were [00:00:15] getting stuck in a game of I'm this, your that. I talked about [00:00:20] doing this research project at an alternative school where every person I interviewed talked to me, they [00:00:25] had undiagnosed autism and they were gender non-conforming.
[00:00:28] And I thought, why is [00:00:30] this so important that they're meeting a stranger and telling me about their [00:00:35] labels? I didn't ask them these things in our culture. It really became how many of [00:00:40] these labels can I get? I saw this at my university. We see this, read a lot of workplaces. [00:00:45] How can we hire people based on we need this statistical check mark of people?
[00:00:49] And I'm [00:00:50] going, this is like not good for democracy. I don't think so. We see the label mania. [00:00:55] Going wild. I think it's an interesting thing when we look at the labeling. Does getting this [00:01:00] diagnosis actually lead to an improved outcome? And I'd say if we looked at more people are [00:01:05] diagnosed, more people are medicated than ever.
[00:01:07] More people see therapists and still everything [00:01:10] sucks. There's something not adding up here.
[00:01:13] SKOT: You must be some kind [00:01:15] of therapist.
[00:01:19] Stephanie Winn: Today I am [00:01:20] speaking with Dr. Will Doba. He's a social worker, researcher, and educator [00:01:25] who has worked with adolescents and families in the United States, Australia and Norway. [00:01:30] He's the author of three books, including most recently Kids these days. [00:01:35] Is that in the screen? I can't tell it. Kids these days.
[00:01:38] Understanding and [00:01:40] supporting Youth Mental Health will welcome to the podcast.
[00:01:43] Will Dobud: I'm really excited to chat with you [00:01:45] today.
[00:01:45] Stephanie Winn: It's great to have you. Uh, this book is really thorough and I [00:01:50] can just recommend it right off the bat to parents, educators, therapists, [00:01:55] anyone working with youth who wants a comprehensive overview of sort of the [00:02:00] nature of the beast of what we're dealing with, with the challenge of rating, raising, especially [00:02:05] adolescents, which is sort of my main population that I work with, although indirectly, so, [00:02:10] uh, you and your co-author, Nevin Harper, have done a really great job here.
[00:02:14] Will Dobud: Uh, [00:02:15] thank you. That means a lot. We, we certainly did cover a lot of, um, a lot of information, [00:02:20] but we wanted, our goal was really to leave parents and educators and therapists sort [00:02:25] of fired up that we've, we've been, uh, at in some cases really [00:02:30] missing the mark and that. Getting it right doesn't have to be so hard.
[00:02:33] Stephanie Winn: Okay. That's an [00:02:35] encouraging message. Um, maybe we can get, give a little sneak preview of where [00:02:40] hopefully we'll go later with the conversation, which is how do we get it right? What advice do you have for [00:02:45] parents and people working with youth?
[00:02:46] Will Dobud: The way I hear people talk about teenagers is that they're [00:02:50] annoying, they're frustrating, they're, uh, they push back at things.
[00:02:54] [00:02:55] And the, what that means is it makes us adults think, how do I combat [00:03:00] this? And we get into this power struggle with kids where really kind of setting up [00:03:05] an environment where young people can be curious, where they can be their best. [00:03:10] And I, what I mean by that is give them something to [00:03:15] participate in. And that sort of starts with giving kids something to imitate.
[00:03:18] So I think [00:03:20] really this notion of building a great connection with people [00:03:25] is way more impactful than trying to fix them. So that's where I think [00:03:30] the hopeful message of the book is. If you, if you kind of pay attention [00:03:35] to how you're thinking about young people, you can see how your thinking can get you [00:03:40] in, in trapped in a corner.
[00:03:41] You know, why won't my kid do their home, do their homework? [00:03:45] Well, whether or not your child does their homework is not your problem, that's your kid's problem, [00:03:50] and they're gonna have to deal with the consequence. So if we can avoid the power struggle [00:03:55] through a good relationship while maintaining our adult responsibilities of food on the [00:04:00] table con like consequences, you know, those sort of things.
[00:04:04] [00:04:05] It, it doesn't have to be so complicated. And that doesn't mean it's not hard, but I think [00:04:10] it's, um, we, we can kind of think our ways into, think ourselves into a trap [00:04:15] of trying to fix this other person where we also know that doesn't work in a, in a [00:04:20] marriage, you know, you can't fix your siblings or your parents.
[00:04:23] And so I think, [00:04:25] um. If we know, if we pay attention to what we wanna notice about our kids, like what do I [00:04:30] not want to change about my child? And then you'll, you'll come up with a lot of cool things.
[00:04:34] Stephanie Winn: That's a really [00:04:35] cool perspective, and it feels close to home. With the parent coaching that I [00:04:40] do, I often find myself saying to parents that there's such an important ramp up happening [00:04:45] between 13 and 18, and really by the time they're 13, you need to start thinking [00:04:50] of them as someone who is.
[00:04:51] On the way towards being on their own. And, and [00:04:55] so whatever they can take on themselves, they should. And, and there's that [00:05:00] mindset shift. I, I feel like, especially around 13, uh, if I, if I can coach [00:05:05] parents at that point in time, sometimes I see them years down the line when they really could have used that advice at the beginning of the [00:05:10] teenage years.
[00:05:10] But just like you said, right, like it's that allowing them to deal with [00:05:15] natural consequences and understand the choices that, that they have and what they will [00:05:20] live with through cause and effect, through learning their own way. That's such an important thing. And it starts with those [00:05:25] little things when they're young that parents wanna protect them from, and I talk about like [00:05:30] the laundry, for instance.
[00:05:31] If you ha hand off the laundry to them, that's their responsibility. [00:05:35] Now they are gonna forget and they, there will [00:05:40] be days that they don't have any clean underwear to wear to school. But letting [00:05:45] them experience that is a surefire way for them to understand the importance of doing their laundry.[00:05:50]
[00:05:50] Rescuing from, from the consequences isn't. So I, I love how [00:05:55] practical your thought process is here, and you also talk about building on their strengths. There was something I [00:06:00] highlighted where you had written about noticing what is going well and building [00:06:05] on their strengths. Can you talk more about that?
[00:06:06] Will Dobud: Yeah. So I know that you talk a lot about culture on, on [00:06:10] this podcast, and so like, one of the things is every headline these days, and, and I have [00:06:15] a, a lot of problems with, uh, Jonathan Hates book The Anxious Generation, but it's like [00:06:20] these, the kids today are dumber than ever before. The kids today are [00:06:25] more fragile than ever before the kids today, the mental health rates are out of [00:06:30] control and I sit there and I go.
[00:06:33] But what's the [00:06:35] solution to this? Is it, is it more, is it more mental health intervention? Is it like more [00:06:40] kids are medicated than ever before, so this is not solving the problem. And [00:06:45] so one of the things like building on the strengths is like teen pregnancy, [00:06:50] the lowest it's been in decades, the amount of kids that are smoking or, or [00:06:55] drinking.
[00:06:55] And I think there's, you know, kids aren't really exploring the world as much as they used to [00:07:00] either. There's problems both directions, but there's also really good things [00:07:05] that are happening too. And so when I think about, you know, [00:07:10] building off what works, it's kind of the, this notion [00:07:15] that. We can get into, and this is like the title of the book, we can [00:07:20] get into this trap of complaining about the kids that they're disrespectful.
[00:07:24] Like [00:07:25] everything our parents said about us. You know, we don't go outside, we're [00:07:30] lazy. We don't read books as much as everybody else. And then we just become old enough to say [00:07:35] the same thing about kids. And so we pa we play into this [00:07:40] role that there's this thing that's wrong with them. And then we start [00:07:45] intervening in ways like, like in Australia, where I am at the moment, banning social [00:07:50] media for everybody under 16, but leaving it with.
[00:07:54] [00:07:55] Middle-aged people who are the most likely to take their own lives, you know, [00:08:00] statistically speaking. And so it's always kind of like one of, one of the people I've been [00:08:05] lucky to meet in this process, Dr. Chris Ferguson. It's all the intervening seems [00:08:10] to always be about turning the screws on the kids, which is what, how he says it.
[00:08:14] [00:08:15] Like we, we, you know, 20 years ago everybody complained about violent video [00:08:20] games leading to crime and school shootings. And crime for the most part is [00:08:25] down. And video violent video games sell more than ever, and they're more violent than ever [00:08:30] before. So if you just pause for a second, the data will, [00:08:35] you know what seems like a moral panic now will usually [00:08:40] calm down.
[00:08:41] Later, but it is really hard when we're parenting and we don't want [00:08:45] our kids, as you were saying, to, to suffer, to feel distressed. Um, [00:08:50] um, and then the headlines scare the crap out of us. This is what happened with putting missing [00:08:55] children on milk cartons. You put one missing child on 10 million [00:09:00] bottles and it looked like 10 million children were missing.
[00:09:03] And the the truth is, [00:09:05] no stranger wants your child. For the most part. It's, they, it's not the way [00:09:10] it works. It's usually a family dispute, a family member, or in really horrific [00:09:15] trafficking situations, you know? But this, this, what happens is we often, [00:09:20] we live in sort of a fear-based society, and when we are, [00:09:25] we're scared of, um, our kids feeling some distress.
[00:09:29] [00:09:30] What ends up happening is we're going to intervene way too much. And so [00:09:35] instead, if you want to intervene, go for it. If you seek. Professional help, go for it. [00:09:40] But just know we as the, you know, the parents or the educator [00:09:45] also need to make sure that that mental health intervention is not [00:09:50] tinkering with what makes that child awesome.
[00:09:53] Because your child's gonna get out of a [00:09:55] hole by using what they already have. They're not gonna be, you know, they're not an empty [00:10:00] vessel as we wrote about, that needs to be filled up with this expert knowledge. If anything, [00:10:05] with concept creep of therapy, language, leaving the counseling room, [00:10:10] they already have all the knowledge.
[00:10:11] Chat. GPT can give you all the knowledge, but it's, [00:10:15] they need to use what, what makes them, um, awesome.
[00:10:17] Stephanie Winn: Well, you sound quite optimistic and I think [00:10:20] that's a good note to start on and it'll be a good note to end on. But you are also very realistic [00:10:25] about the problems kids are facing these days and, and, and the ones unique to [00:10:30] them, including.
[00:10:31] Well, not to say that environmental chemicals [00:10:35] just appeared yesterday, but you talk about the role of pollution, everything from heavy [00:10:40] metals to endocrine disrupting chemicals in the environment. And you're willing in this book to ask the hard [00:10:45] questions. I think we should all be asking like, to what extent do these [00:10:50] neurotoxins and uh, endocrine disruptors affect things like [00:10:55] widespread gender identity issues?
[00:10:57] You're, you're willing to go there. Um. [00:11:00] You also tackle questions of overprotection and [00:11:05] screens. Um, you said that you disagree with Jonathan Het on some of this, which is a, a bold stance [00:11:10] to take because he's so well respected and you know, and here you are coming on the [00:11:15] scene, um, sharing a, a different perspective on that.
[00:11:18] I, I think there's definitely some [00:11:20] overlap in your perspectives, but, um, one difference I noticed was [00:11:25] your, your chapter on screens, you explained what's particularly [00:11:30] addictive and destructive about the endless scroll, the liking, the algorithm and [00:11:35] things like that. But rather than advocating for bands, you advocate [00:11:40] for a, a more nuanced approach.
[00:11:42] And you explain, I think the terms you use are [00:11:45] digital interference versus digital integration. Can you explain that?
[00:11:48] Will Dobud: Yeah. So digital [00:11:50] interference. So we know that screens, like when our parents used to say, if you watch too much television, [00:11:55] it's gonna rott your brain. Well, there is some. Kind of truth to [00:12:00] that about, um, changes in the brains, alpha waves and all of this really [00:12:05] complicated neuroscience stuff.
[00:12:07] So in for that chapter, we spoke with Dr. [00:12:10] Mari s Swingle. She, um, actually lived an incredible life. She, uh, [00:12:15] graduated her bachelor's degree at, uh, 18 years old and said, uh, I'm gonna move [00:12:20] from Canada to France and become a model for a while. And then she came back and joined her [00:12:25] father's, uh, uh, psychotherapy clinic, and she was kind of on [00:12:30] the beat faster than anybody about technology.
[00:12:33] So over 10 years ago, [00:12:35] she wrote a book called I Minds like, like iPhone I Minds, [00:12:40] and she talked about how the infinite scroll that a, a lot of these [00:12:45] apps and, and the technology is intentionally designed to keep us hooked. They want us to stay there. [00:12:50] Now at the same time, she said there's, you know, if you watch a, a video [00:12:55] game developer, the way they play a game is very different than someone who's just playing [00:13:00] Candy Crush and mindlessly doing nothing.
[00:13:02] Like their brain is actually turning [00:13:05] on and, and becoming really active and using, um, you know, these parts of the [00:13:10] brain that are for critical thinking and, and solving problems. So [00:13:15] the issue with the banning in my perspective, and I also think [00:13:20] prohibitionist universal approaches just never work. Um, what it's, what it's [00:13:25] doing is sort of putting this blanket ban that no child is able to, you know, [00:13:30] uh, um, use this.
[00:13:32] So digital, there is a [00:13:35] digital interference that happens. No, no teacher wants their, their, their student on their [00:13:40] phone in the classroom. Nobody wants to have a conversation with a young person who just [00:13:45] has a, you know, a piece of metal in front of their face at the same time. I [00:13:50] think with good education, with good understanding of the [00:13:55] technologies, I think most young people actually make really healthy decisions if [00:14:00] we are involved in their life.
[00:14:01] And that can lead to a digital integration. I mean, in [00:14:05] Australia, like during COVID, and this is, I think this is like a, a key [00:14:10] aspect of the book that growing up when the rules change every [00:14:15] few years is really hard and confusing for a lot of young people. Um, [00:14:20] so in Australia, like we were the most locked down country in the world.
[00:14:23] During COVID, I could not [00:14:25] cross a state line. Um, I could not have more than 10 people at my house. It [00:14:30] changed everything. And my kids were in high school and they were at home all the time. And as someone who [00:14:35] ran my private practice out of, you know, an office in the garden, I [00:14:40] like. That was weird and challenging, but the narrative was, don't worry, you're digital [00:14:45] natives.
[00:14:45] You have to learn how to go to school online. All your friends are gonna be online. Don't worry about it. [00:14:50] Everything is online. You're gonna have your laptop. You can do the Zoom class, then write your essay on your [00:14:55] laptop. And it's only like three years removed from that. And it's ed [00:15:00] tech is the devil ban all kids off social media.
[00:15:02] They can't have techno. So it [00:15:05] always seems to me it's only the adults like what the adults want to have [00:15:10] happen. And, and I know that you can't give kids everything they'd want, they just eat candy all day. But [00:15:15] it seems like this ever moving goalpost. So I think what Mari [00:15:20] Swingle wrote was a really hopeful, uh, piece about there can be harms to this [00:15:25] technology.
[00:15:25] Absolutely. And at the same time, there can be a lot of [00:15:30] benefits from these techno, from this technology. Um, and so, I [00:15:35] mean, we're seeing it with AI now. Everyone's freaking out about ai. Um, but you know, I, I've been [00:15:40] writing about this on my substack, like, you know, like t math teachers were scared of the [00:15:45] calculator.
[00:15:45] Like this, the world changes. New York City banned pinball for [00:15:50] 30 years because they thought it was, looked like a slot machine acted like a [00:15:55] slot machine. So we can't have everyone become a gambling addict. People were actually scared [00:16:00] of the kaleidoscope in 1818. They thought people were walking into walls.
[00:16:04] They [00:16:05] were so distracted and no one would talk to each other anymore because of [00:16:10] light, color and mirrors. So like, we've done all of this before, [00:16:15] and so it's important I think, that we don't just live in right now, that we can learn from [00:16:20] history as well. Um, but at the same time, and I think you, you brought this up like with the [00:16:25] environmental toxins, how is it possible a country like, like Australia, where I am, and we could [00:16:30] talk about American context on this too, like a.
[00:16:33] Australia. They, [00:16:35] they wrote the, the federal government wrote the legislation to ban social media in nine [00:16:40] days. Like what federal government does anything in nine days? You know, I'm American. It [00:16:45] took, uh, seven years to get my children a green [00:16:50] card. Like, it's ridiculous, right? And, [00:16:55] but they, they still have, you know, the state of New South Wales still covered [00:17:00] up lead poisoning of indigenous youth from, from a mining company in [00:17:05] September of, of last year.
[00:17:06] So I'm sitting here going, why are we doing this thing when there's actually [00:17:10] a real known harm to children? Um, a, a a, [00:17:15] a known neurotoxin that we've banned from gasoline and paint. [00:17:20] But if it finds out that a mining company, um, the, the, the, their product is [00:17:25] leading to, um, you know. Higher rates of, uh, lead blood [00:17:30] concentration levels, which there's no safe level of lead in your blood.
[00:17:34] How come no one can [00:17:35] do anything about that? And so that's the part that didn't compute with Nevin. And I, when I, we, [00:17:40] especially with the, the, the phone things, I just think if all phones [00:17:45] disappeared, we'd all still talk about teenagers the same way and try to ban something else that would [00:17:50] make life easier with kids that I don't know.
[00:17:52] It's kind, it kind of doesn't add up to me.
[00:17:54] Stephanie Winn: I am [00:17:55] curious what you've noticed from your own experience that fuels your optimism that [00:18:00] most kids would self-regulate pretty well with these things. 'cause it, it's [00:18:05] my observation, they don't seem to self-regulate very well. I, [00:18:10] I often work with parents around, uh, establishing boundaries with screen time.[00:18:15]
[00:18:15] Common situation that gets a family into trouble is giving their kid a phone and what it would be, in my [00:18:20] opinion, too young, and then, uh, not setting the expectation from the beginning [00:18:25] that this is going to be something that we are in charge of. So the expectation is that [00:18:30] it's at the kid's discretion and that they will have [00:18:35] privacy and then the parent has to walk it back.
[00:18:39] They have to take away [00:18:40] privileges when they see that the kid isn't using those privileges. Whereas I think it's much [00:18:45] better from the beginning if, when you do give your kid a phone, it's clear that nothing that [00:18:50] happens on here is private. And, uh, that, uh, you, [00:18:55] you can't, you're not just going to have unlimited access to the whole internet and every app whenever you want.
[00:18:59] It's, it's [00:19:00] up to us to determine what level of access is appropriate. And partly we're going [00:19:05] to be looking to see how your mood and behavior are as cues as to whether this is good for [00:19:10] you or not. Just like you would if you, you know, if your daughter had a certain friend. [00:19:15] And every time she went to that friend's house, she came back in tears.
[00:19:19] There'd be a [00:19:20] point where you're like, I'm not sure that this friendship is working out for you. Um, [00:19:25] similarly, parents can see their kids' reactions to excessive screen [00:19:30] time or to certain types of screen time and see that that's not [00:19:35] beneficial for them. But then they end up, as you said, in a power struggle where what I observe [00:19:40] is sort of the ification of the kids, where the way that the parent talks to the kid is like, they're trying to [00:19:45] convince them this isn't good for you.
[00:19:47] And it's like, well, okay. You're gonna [00:19:50] encounter teenage resistance. So what's the boundary? You're not gonna get anywhere if you expect a kid to [00:19:55] understand or agree with your reasoning when you're coming in to tell them that something they want is off limits. [00:20:00] So what's your boundary versus a power struggle?
[00:20:03] I'm not sure how much you would agree or disagree [00:20:05] with my perspective on this. 'cause it seems like you've seen kids with a healthier relationship with technology than I have.
[00:20:09] Will Dobud: I [00:20:10] totally agree that this is, this is kind of about parenting. We didn't give our kids [00:20:15] phones until like 16. That totally agrees with Jonathan Height's perspective.
[00:20:19] Right? [00:20:20] And we kind of, we didn't really have a rule. It was just, this is our [00:20:25] household. You know, this is, this is what we are doing here. So [00:20:30] what, what kind of I think tends to happen is I, I totally agree with you that there's [00:20:35] not really any good education, but kids do things like, [00:20:40] like turn off, like turning off notifications.
[00:20:42] I think my phone is on more notification. This is [00:20:45] not something I've ever talked with my kids about. You know, and so there's things [00:20:50] that if we really educate and set up the boundaries from the start, and we could talk about [00:20:55] boundaries in parenting. 'cause boundaries seem like to a lot of us, they can feel [00:21:00] stale, frustrating.
[00:21:01] We have to enforce them. It means more work for the parent. [00:21:05] But the truth is, if your kid usually breaks a rule, like stays out [00:21:10] too late, they usually stay out. That's better than having no boundary. They still [00:21:15] come home like it's, that's safer. So boundaries are really important. I actually [00:21:20] totally agree with your perspective.
[00:21:21] I think the issue that I see [00:21:25] and with, with what Jonathan, what Jonathan Haight wrote, [00:21:30] um, is it feels like. The ban, like [00:21:35] federal government stepping in and banning something or states doing phone free schools, it feels like [00:21:40] this symbolic gesture that is like, don't worry, we've got your back adults, [00:21:45] we'll solve this problem.
[00:21:46] Where like the phone free school movement is an interesting one. Like what [00:21:50] classroom was like, this is a phone classroom. Like [00:21:55] everybody bring your phones in. Like there's no rule. That was like, no, no. [00:22:00] School was like, yes, it's really great for everybody to have their phones. So something changed [00:22:05] where teachers didn't feel they had the, the control of their classroom, the power over their [00:22:10] classroom to enforce, Hey, put that down.
[00:22:12] Or you're gonna have detention. You have to foc like, [00:22:15] I know, I'm like, I'm not like that high school teacher. I don't know what that's like, but [00:22:20] something changed where. It became really permissive to [00:22:25] allow all of these things where really what, what Nevin and I wanted. And as people, we, [00:22:30] we, we joke about this and like, we don't like shitting on people.
[00:22:32] Like, I don't like telling other people what to do. I don't [00:22:35] like being told what to do. At the same time, I want people to feel empowered [00:22:40] to do what they think is right and, and, and not feel like they're told what to do. [00:22:45] So I absolutely a hundred percent agree with you that if you're at the time [00:22:50] where you're thinking, I'm going to give my kid a phone and a smartphone and that [00:22:55] has access to all these apps and all this way too much information that [00:23:00] you do need to set your kid up for success.
[00:23:02] That's the digital integration. And, [00:23:05] and um, and I think that also starts with giving kids something to imitate. Like, I saw this [00:23:10] video the other day 'cause I've used this example before. If you're on an airplane and you [00:23:15] see the safety briefing, every person on the plane is on their phone. [00:23:20] Everybody and I watched this video of there was a plane incident and everybody had to evacuate the [00:23:25] plane and everybody brought their baggage off the plane, which is like rule [00:23:30] one of like, Hey, don't clog this up, you need to leave the plane.
[00:23:34] And there was a [00:23:35] fire and everybody was coming off with all of their luggage. And I'm going, what are we giving them to [00:23:40] imitate? So if we are on our phone all the time, it's kind of ironic to [00:23:45] call to say something that to the kid that doesn't add up. So I [00:23:50] think it, it starts with the adults.
[00:23:52] Stephanie Winn: The imitation piece is huge.
[00:23:54] I had a [00:23:55] family consulting me about a behavioral issue recently and they said it's so hard to get our kid to get ready for bed [00:24:00] in a timely manner because he's so distracted and [00:24:05] uh, he always wants to do whatever stepdad is doing. So, I [00:24:10] mean, this might sound obvious when I put it this way, but I said, so.
[00:24:13] Then shouldn't [00:24:15] stepdad be brushing his teeth when you need the boy to brush his teeth? [00:24:20] Uh, that, that would make sense, right? If the boy's gonna imitate the stepdad. But it's, it's, it's hard sometimes to [00:24:25] remember how impressionable these kids are and how much our [00:24:30] example means because then it's like, it, we, we feel guilty, right?
[00:24:34] [00:24:35] Like, I'm not always behaving in a way that I would want my kids to imitate. [00:24:40] I'm not always present in the moment. But you, you argue, um, about, [00:24:45] well, I'm not sure actually exactly what you would argue about phone free schools. I think you're right that, [00:24:50] that teachers have lost control of classrooms. And I, I did hear a lot of these [00:24:55] stories of just, everyone's on their phone in the classroom.
[00:24:57] The teacher can't control [00:25:00] anything. And even when it comes to the in-betweens, I [00:25:05] think those moments are really important. The moments in the hallway, recess, lunch, [00:25:10] um. It seems to me like in schools where they don't [00:25:15] have strict bands, that there's kind of this, [00:25:20] um, tragedy of the commons issue happening where, [00:25:25] you know, if let's say 50% or more of the students have phones [00:25:30] and they start to get them out on their break, then it, it feels like everyone should have their [00:25:35] phones out and it decreases the sort of forced pressure to just [00:25:40] socialize and be present with the kids around you.
[00:25:42] So now they're not socializing or they're only [00:25:45] socializing through their phones, showing each other things, not making eye contact. And that seems like [00:25:50] a real problem to me. So I can understand why schools would want to be [00:25:55] phone free, but it sounds like you wouldn't support that.
[00:25:57] Will Dobud: Well, I think as someone who has [00:26:00] worked outdoors with kids, like the, the biggest barrier, well, a [00:26:05] barrier to engaging in the outdoors is your phone.
[00:26:08] Like, it's annoying. [00:26:10] It's like, Hey, we're out in this beautiful natural area, like let's just watch this. [00:26:15] But I think that lands on me as the therapist to engage the [00:26:20] person in that process. So the phone is a challenge, but it also is a challenge [00:26:25] for me to be more present, to be more engaging, maybe have some more [00:26:30] charisma or something.
[00:26:31] And as someone who has worked in high schools, like, you know, the [00:26:35] most boring place in a high school is the teacher's lounge. Like, it's like soul [00:26:40] destroying to, to be there where everyone's on their phone not talking, they're exhausted, they're [00:26:45] overworked. There's too many kids in their classroom. And so the phone is almost [00:26:50] like a pacifier where really working with kids is like, we have to be [00:26:55] really present and energized and, and, and kind of, you know.[00:27:00]
[00:27:00] Discuss why learning Shakespeare is interesting. Like, like I found high school [00:27:05] soul destroying. If I had a phone, I would sit there the whole time on the [00:27:10] phone, but I was nothing. I was engaged in, I really didn't even learn how to be a student [00:27:15] until I started studying psychology and social work where I went, oh my gosh, this is actually interesting.
[00:27:19] [00:27:20] I like this stuff. Um, and you know, went on to do a PhD and [00:27:25] write stuff and I love writing and, but I didn't learn any of that from high school, like high, high. [00:27:30] So I think there's this kind of concept and it's almost like a, like a [00:27:35] nostalgia bias. That school was better when I went to school. Like if we use [00:27:40] this kind of phone, the phone free school lunch, and I'm a hundred percent and I'll get to where I'm a hundred percent [00:27:45] with you as well.
[00:27:46] Like, teachers would ban doodling in the classroom [00:27:50] if they could, or like that we talk to friends in past notes, like all of [00:27:55] these things. But what has happened in school? We've [00:28:00] simultaneously kind of killed recess. Like there's no risk on the playground [00:28:05] anymore. The playgrounds are safer than they've ever been.
[00:28:08] You know, Maryland, where, where [00:28:10] I'm from, the, the public school system in my county has banned baseball, [00:28:15] football, and, and, uh, one person on the monkey bars at a time. Um, all of these [00:28:20] rules, and I'm sitting there going. What adult went to college, got a teaching [00:28:25] degree, and then is like, you know, what I wanna do with the rest of my career?
[00:28:28] I wanna police, you know, [00:28:30] tag on the playground. So we've simultaneously kind of made [00:28:35] school as, and I'm talking, not talking about education, like the schooling system. [00:28:40] We've created this schooling system that really only works for [00:28:45] kids that fit in with the system. And so if you're someone who doesn't have a [00:28:50] good social network at, at school, what are you going to do in, [00:28:55] in, during recess or in between class times when you can zone out on your [00:29:00] device or, you know, you're, you're not gonna sit there and talk to [00:29:05] nobody.
[00:29:05] So this idea that if we just remove the phones, everything at school will be solved. [00:29:10] I don't know if that, I think there's a way bigger problem with school. [00:29:15] Um, and Peter Gray, uh, uh, I believe he's a psychologist from Harvard. He, [00:29:20] he writes about play and things like that, that you can actually have a way bigger correlation [00:29:25] to changes in school curriculum in 2010 to anything that's a [00:29:30] mental health crisis than the phones.
[00:29:32] And so there's this, I [00:29:35] just think, and never in my life did I think I'd be someone talking about phones or social media. [00:29:40] It actually doesn't interest me that much. It's mostly youth development that I'm really [00:29:45] fascinated about. But what I see happening is this. [00:29:50] Notion that once this thing is gone, school will be, pr will be excellent.
[00:29:54] Where the [00:29:55] truth is, school has kind of never been excellent. So if we look at youth [00:30:00] mental health, it's deteriorated. Youth anxiety has risen since the 1950s. [00:30:05] Um, I think the peak re the 1980s were suicide was as high in the [00:30:10] eighties as it is today. Um, so what was going on in the eighties? Well, family [00:30:15] systems, you know, divorce was more common, so we had more family separation.
[00:30:19] Um, you also have the [00:30:20] Cold War, so everyone's scared of getting, you know, bombed and, and it's terrifying. [00:30:25] And then 2010 you have this, again, another spike that seems to slowly be, [00:30:30] uh, going down since COVID. Um, but the part I agree with you [00:30:35] is I want kids playing and having fun. And I think most kids [00:30:40] in the right environment will choose that.
[00:30:42] And I'm speaking, this is my own. [00:30:45] Nostalgia. But when I've run expeditions, um, with young people, uh, this [00:30:50] is why I went to Norway. Um, most of my work in the outdoors, like sitting [00:30:55] around and having dinner together around a fire is like, it's a, it's such a [00:31:00] wonderful experience and no one's on their phone.
[00:31:02] And so if you're having an engaging [00:31:05] conversation, people will usually put their phone down. So again, it's what have we given young [00:31:10] people to participate in that they'd rather be on their phone. So that's sort of where [00:31:15] I think from the, how we can think about it as adults.
[00:31:18] Stephanie Winn: I'm trying to figure out [00:31:20] exactly where to draw the lines around what you're saying and where we agree and disagree because I, I don't want to [00:31:25] misinterpret your point.
[00:31:26] I, I think there's, there's a lens through which I can hear what you're saying, [00:31:30] where it's essentially. Okay. The adults [00:31:35] in a kid's life, including teachers, have to compete with this, you know, [00:31:40] endless dopamine machine over here to just be more interesting. Right? If they're [00:31:45] drawn to all the, the endless stimuli, it's because you're not interesting [00:31:50] enough.
[00:31:50] You need to be more interesting and, and there's, there's a degree to which well, we'll never be able to compete, [00:31:55] uh, because it's, it's a completely different type of experience. [00:32:00] Um, I don't, I certainly wouldn't take the stance [00:32:05] that, uh, phones are the only thing wrong with schools. I agree with you that I [00:32:10] think a lot of how public education is run is total garbage.
[00:32:14] [00:32:15] It's not experience based. It doesn't prepare kids for the real world. [00:32:20] Um, if anything, it gives. An inflated sense of their [00:32:25] capabilities to the students who are the most academic and then they're in for a harsh reality [00:32:30] when those aren't the skills that are really needed in the real world. And, um, I, I [00:32:35] mean there's, we could do a massive overhaul, so I wanna make sure I'm not, [00:32:40] I'm not misunderstanding you to say that, uh, that we [00:32:45] just need to compete with the phones for kids' attention and be more interesting.
[00:32:48] Will Dobud: Yeah. I think this just gets [00:32:50] back to boundaries. This is where I really agree with you. Like I, I remember when I used to, [00:32:55] like, for instance, I worked in Alaska for a while and we were taking young people on expeditions as an alternative [00:33:00] for them going to jail. And, um, these were really, [00:33:05] you know, rural kids from rural remote communities.
[00:33:08] And I'd always [00:33:10] say, listen, I'm gonna stub my toe. I'm gonna say [00:33:15] shit when that happens, or a worse word. And so I don't care about [00:33:20] swearing, but what's gonna happen is swearing will eventually get out of control while [00:33:25] we're all together because we're just gonna start using it. And what happens is if like [00:33:30] swearing is fine, but sometimes if you swear too much, you sound like an idiot.
[00:33:33] So can we just see what [00:33:35] happens? And in a few days, if swearing gets outta hand, can we all work on that together? And everybody [00:33:40] goes, sure. Where if I said, no swearing, I've got [00:33:45] no buy-in. No, there's no, are we all agreeing to this? Even though [00:33:50] I want people to speak politely to each other? And then I would say, but I am gonna [00:33:55] say no, no, like racism stuff.
[00:33:57] Like I don't want to hear that stuff. And they go, okay. [00:34:00] And then eventually something happens, someone they get angry with each other, they [00:34:05] call each other names, and then you go, Hey, can we go back to what we talked about here? So I think it's [00:34:10] kind of. You can do any banning that you want. I'd like any school to do [00:34:15] whatever they want.
[00:34:15] I mean, I'm good friends with people. They run a nature school, um, in New South Wales, [00:34:20] Australia. It's amazing. There's no phones there. It's probably a rule I like. It doesn't, I don't lose sleep about it, but [00:34:25] I like the boundary to be important to the context [00:34:30] of why it's there. And so when I see, and I think this [00:34:35] is kind of the most important thing I took away from writing this book, that when I hear [00:34:40] the way the language is like we have to protect the kids.
[00:34:43] Like here, here, when I [00:34:45] first read The Anxious Generation, an Anxious Generation, Jonathan Hets book, the thing that [00:34:50] stood out to me is he proposes four norms. And the norms are something like, you know, [00:34:55] no social media till you're 16, no smartphone till you're 16, and uh, [00:35:00] you know, no phone at all till you're 12.
[00:35:02] Something like that. And then. [00:35:05] Unstructured play, no adult interference. So the four norms are like [00:35:10] one adult interference, two adult interference, three adult interference, four, [00:35:15] no adult interference. And I just thought this is like a really odd way to [00:35:20] conceptualize what you're proposing here. And not to mention the research and, [00:35:25] and you know, we don't have to get into that.
[00:35:27] But the, the thing I think where I [00:35:30] really agree with you is I want the school to be making a informed, like [00:35:35] when the, like when Montgomery County Public Schools say no baseball on the playground, [00:35:40] I'm sitting there going, why? And it's just about what if [00:35:45] somebody gets hurt, someone got hurt playing baseball last year.
[00:35:48] Well someone's gonna get hurt [00:35:50] on some other playground equipment, then we'll make playgrounds even more boring than they've [00:35:55] ever been. You know? So I, I think if a school wants to go down the phone [00:36:00] free school thing, and I think, sure, go for it. I think. [00:36:05] Also think about how is it that we're talking to kids?
[00:36:09] I put out a [00:36:10] video just the other week that, um, it was a mainstream news, [00:36:15] uh, thing in Australia, and it's a digital de detox bootcamp run by [00:36:20] army veterans here in Australia. And so parents are sending their kids and they're, you know, [00:36:25] basically going through this nine day pseudo bootcamp and it's all about technology, right?[00:36:30]
[00:36:30] And that's the focus. And the, the person on the news said, you know, these [00:36:35] kids arrive and they're, they're, they're a shell of a person. And I just went, how are you [00:36:40] going to treat a child that you believe is a shell of a person? Like right off the [00:36:45] bat, you're starting at, I have to fix you and I have to fill up this empty shell [00:36:50] with what I think is important.
[00:36:52] And so I think creating the environment [00:36:55] and if that, if that involves the boundary of. Phone free schools, go for it. [00:37:00] But don't I, I think it's just a cautionary tale of if we do this because we think [00:37:05] there's something wrong with kids, it it, it won't lead us to the utopia that we [00:37:10] think it will.
[00:37:10] Stephanie Winn: It's hard for parents or busy adults around a [00:37:15] kid to put themselves in a kid's shoes, but sometimes it [00:37:20] makes all the difference.
[00:37:21] If you can just take a few moments to. [00:37:25] Mentally put yourself where they are. I saw a really beautiful example of [00:37:30] this recently. So my husband and I were out for a walk and there was a [00:37:35] grandfather with his maybe 2-year-old granddaughter outside. [00:37:40] And at one point they were just parked in the middle of the sidewalk [00:37:45] while the little girl who at that point, she'd been pushing around a, a, a baby [00:37:50] stroller, a little kid-sized baby stroller full of her stuffed animals.
[00:37:53] And, and they were stopped and [00:37:55] her stroller was parked and she was chasing leaves down the [00:38:00] sidewalk. They were blowing in the wind and she was filled with delight. And [00:38:05] as we passed him, he basically, he, he greeted us and he narrated [00:38:10] her experience to us. He said, we're noticing the effects of wind. [00:38:15] Or something like that.
[00:38:16] And I was like, great theory of mind, grandpa. That's exactly [00:38:20] what's happening. She's two years old. Wind is a total novelty. The fact that this leave [00:38:25] leaf is moving because of this invisible force is so exciting to her right now, [00:38:30] and you're doing a great job of putting yourself in her shoes. You're patient, you're totally present, like she's [00:38:35] having the time of her life.
[00:38:36] And you can do that with a 2-year-old. They're gonna be fascinated by [00:38:40] something observable in the, in the material world. And you can do that with a child of, of [00:38:45] any age. It gets a little bit more complicated as they get older, but this is where a lot of [00:38:50] power struggles, I think come from. I notice in parent coaching is that the parent [00:38:55] forgets to figure out where is my child's attention [00:39:00] before they go and ask that kid to put their attention somewhere else?[00:39:05]
[00:39:05] And, and you can end up in these oppositional. Dynamics. [00:39:10] And so sometimes the solution is really as simple as just noticing [00:39:15] or coming alongside them or Hey, what are you doing? But not in an [00:39:20] accusatory way, not like, uh, are you supposed to be doing that? But [00:39:25] literally what are you working on? Um, and uh, and that can help especially [00:39:30] with the kids with who have difficulty transitioning too.
[00:39:32] Um, because sometimes they're [00:39:35] oppositional, you know, they're not obeying your instructions in the very moment. Well, did you think [00:39:40] about where their mind was at? Especially considering kids are so overscheduled, they [00:39:45] have so many transitions in rapid succession, then meanwhile you have all of [00:39:50] these kids who are somewhat autistic diagnosed or not.
[00:39:53] And we can actually, I think we should talk [00:39:55] about that next 'cause you have some really great things to say about that in the book. Um, but kids who, who [00:40:00] may already struggle with transitions and need longer stretches of [00:40:05] time for their attention to just naturally go. Wherever they want it to go. And, and they're [00:40:10] already not getting enough of that.
[00:40:11] Will Dobud: Well, we were finishing writing the book. Um, [00:40:15] I started down a, a really deep rabbit hole [00:40:20] about, um, not only American philosophy, but the, the founding of our [00:40:25] professions of social work, of psychology, um, and as an outdoor person, and I did [00:40:30] my, my, my doctoral research was a bit about this, but about kind of [00:40:35] experiential learning.
[00:40:36] And I started noticing that in some cases we [00:40:40] get this idea sort of, I don't wanna say wrong about [00:40:45] experiential learning, but it's, it's kind of become synonymous with activity. Like what [00:40:50] activity are you doing? What experiential activity? But experiential [00:40:55] was really like this, you know. John Dewey's the most well regarded person [00:41:00] on this topic, but John Dewey was a, a mentee of William James, like [00:41:05] famous Harvard psychologist, you know, uh, oversaw the first psychology PhD [00:41:10] in America.
[00:41:11] Um, had the first psychology experiential lab, um, [00:41:15] at Harvard in, in, in the world. Like, he, he was remarkable. And he, his [00:41:20] ideas were things like stream of consciousness, like this is a William [00:41:25] James idea that your, your consciousness is gonna change based on what you're experiencing in the [00:41:30] world. So if you read a book, and let's say the book is brilliant, but you [00:41:35] say, that book is boring.
[00:41:36] There's something to learn about this. Like, what is this about [00:41:40] me that I'm in? I'm experiencing this as boring, but someone else might experience [00:41:45] this as really riveting. My wife loves reading fiction. I only [00:41:50] read nonfiction. Like what is different about us that we can learn about who we are? [00:41:55] So I love this idea of chasing the [00:42:00] leaves and, and someone saying, this is the wind.
[00:42:03] Because now if the child is [00:42:05] experiencing wind, where a lot of schooling today is very passive, [00:42:10] which this is the part that. Is very interesting to, to me as, as a [00:42:15] therapist, like the, the, the manualizing of therapies like [00:42:20] William James and Jane Adams and John Dewey, like the, the gurus of the early [00:42:25] 19 hundreds, psychology, social work and education.
[00:42:28] They would hate this idea, like [00:42:30] Dewey wrote about a crowded curriculum. There's too many things to learn and kids aren't [00:42:35] getting the chance to experience things and they should be solving problems together and [00:42:40] an open source kind of learning. Um, and so teachers all [00:42:45] learn this stuff. Therapists, we all learn, it's all the relationship, it's hope and [00:42:50] expectancy, and it's a sense of, you know, a shared interest in the problems that we're [00:42:55] solving or what we're the work we're doing together.
[00:42:57] But then still everything we had, [00:43:00] everything we do is dictated by the insurance company. It's dictated by people who aren't [00:43:05] therapists who are telling us what to do. So there's this kind of, and I think this is the undertone of the [00:43:10] whole book, like. If we sit, if we [00:43:15] kind of sit around and we, this is where we can get into like, I think is a good segue into autism as [00:43:20] well.
[00:43:20] Like if we sit around and wait for like, [00:43:25] you know, like they just announced that, and this is early 2026, [00:43:30] it was just announced there's gonna be a new DSM and it's gonna be way better than the last DSM. [00:43:35] But everyone who's writing this new DSM all have financial interests with the [00:43:40] pharmaceutical companies.
[00:43:40] And so it's like, why? Why are we even caring about what? Like, and I [00:43:45] know we all have to make money and that's the world we live in. It's kind of this irony that what we're [00:43:50] trained to do and then the system we're forced to work in seemed like two totally different [00:43:55] worlds. So with school, I think if we really revisited everything you just [00:44:00] said, which is can they have more time together instead of.
[00:44:04] A bell [00:44:05] rings. You sit down and rows in a seat, in a, in a classroom. The bell rings. You stand up, you [00:44:10] walk next door, sit down, bell rings, stand up, go to the next where it's very, it's like [00:44:15] kind of antithetical to everything we know about childhood. And let me say something, [00:44:20] going back to the early 19 hundreds, most children in the early [00:44:25] 19 hundreds worked in factories, right?
[00:44:27] And so most kids did not go to high [00:44:30] school. And if you really want to think about high school being important, like George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, none of these people [00:44:35] went to high school. I think Thomas Jefferson owned his plant, owned his [00:44:40] plantation from 12 years old. I think he was the manager of the, like, there was a different way we [00:44:45] viewed kids back in the day.
[00:44:46] Not that owning a plantation is cool. I'm not advocating for that. [00:44:50] What has changed is it was everyone needs to go to school. [00:44:55] This will be really important, and I'm not anti this idea. Jane [00:45:00] Adams, when she won, she was the first American woman to win the Nobel Peace Prize. And she was [00:45:05] also, um, when she died in the thirties, she was the most famous woman in America that we hardly talk [00:45:10] about anymore.
[00:45:10] She, she created my, my profession of social work. Um, [00:45:15] you know, along with other people, of course, but one of the things she did [00:45:20] was she fought tirelessly to get kids out of factories. And it [00:45:25] wasn't because of an ethical issue. It was this is not good for the growing body [00:45:30] to do nothing to be this. She wrote a book in 1909 called The Spirit of [00:45:35] Youth, where she went through, uh, in Chicago, many of the kids [00:45:40] that wound up in the juvenile courts, and she's like, all of them are stuck in factories [00:45:45] all day.
[00:45:45] What would you do on the weekend? You, you'd go to the train tracks and hop [00:45:50] on a train and go on an adventure. You know, so if we're crushing the spirit of [00:45:55] youth, it's no wonder that they're pushing back. So I found it interesting and then like [00:46:00] reading Eric Erickson and the developmental stages, Eric Erickson has a great [00:46:05] quote, I think it's in 1960, where he says, you know, we learned how to, [00:46:10] how to stop stunting the growing body by getting the manufac factories.
[00:46:13] Now we have [00:46:15] to stop like stunting the spirit of youth because of our own adult [00:46:20] anxiety. And so we see this a lot where it's trying to fit kids into this [00:46:25] box. And so I think that like there's stuff to look at historically as [00:46:30] to why, how these really radical thinkers created, [00:46:35] how they saw things, and then how we still put up with the system staying exactly [00:46:40] that, that the status quo is okay.
[00:46:41] I mean. I work at a university, I'll tell you, [00:46:45] trying to get anything going, like they say, will, you've written about outdoor therapy? [00:46:50] Create an elective. Do you know how long that process is? I have to get that approved by like nine [00:46:55] different subcommittees. I was like that. That sounds like a huge pain in the ass.
[00:46:59] [00:47:00] Like they want you to make a change, but secretly they don't want any change to happen. [00:47:05] And so, 'cause that's hard. It's hard to change things, but I think many people, if they revisit [00:47:10] not only their own youth and how they thought about themselves as a teenager, [00:47:15] but also if someone got into therapy, got into being an educator, why you [00:47:20] got into it.
[00:47:21] I think that can keep you motivated to keep kind of bucking against [00:47:25] the system that's been put in place.
[00:47:27] Stephanie Winn: Your trans identified kid won't listen to [00:47:30] reason, because reason isn't what they need right now. They need a parent who [00:47:35] knows how to communicate in an empathic yet strategic manner. [00:47:40] ROGD repair gives you over 120 lessons in the psychology and [00:47:45] communication tools that actually work when normal parenting doesn't.
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[00:48:07] Stephanie Winn: All right, let's talk about autism. We [00:48:10] flagged that. I appreciate the way that you address this because early in the book [00:48:15] you acknowledge that we have a lot more environmental toxins that could [00:48:20] have something to do with rising rates of, well [00:48:25] mental conditions that are downstream of things like heavy metal exposure, [00:48:30] phthalates.
[00:48:30] Things like that. Um, so you look at the rising rates of [00:48:35] autism, what they might have to do with things like that. Um, but you also talk [00:48:40] about how the term neurodivergence gets misused and the [00:48:45] issue of secondary gain, identity, politics and youth over identifying with their mental [00:48:50] illness.
[00:48:50] Will Dobud: Neurodiversity is a really interesting one.
[00:48:53] Um, and actually one of [00:48:55] my, one of my colleagues, a a feminist scholar, um, uh, sent, sent [00:49:00] me this article about it, and it was a few years ago, and I just went, oh my gosh, I, I can't [00:49:05] believe like mainstream, we're getting this so backwards. So like the, the [00:49:10] historical perspective was, um, there's an honors thesis, uh, from the [00:49:15] mid nineties written by Judy Singer, um, an Australian sociologist who [00:49:20] wrote that.
[00:49:21] This concept of neurodiversity is a, is a place, it's [00:49:25] a setting. Like your brain is different to my brain. We're having a conversation and that's, [00:49:30] that's neurodiversity. So it was actually this kind of movement to [00:49:35] move beyond labeling. And, and so it was really inspired by, um, a [00:49:40] lot of, um, uh, feminism and, and gay rights activism that [00:49:45] how can we move beyond having to just be put in this box, um, if, [00:49:50] if I happen to have, have autism.
[00:49:52] And so the, the concept [00:49:55] was really, um, neurodiversity being that your, [00:50:00] your brain and your neurological makeup is as unique as your fingerprint. So [00:50:05] everybody has this unique neurological makeup, so that way we can think of [00:50:10] a classroom or a workplace that's open to everybody. You know, like, [00:50:15] and, and speaking from like, like disability activism, like every elevator [00:50:20] has braille on it.
[00:50:21] Like how many people can read braille? Like I would [00:50:25] guess less than way less than 1% of, of, you know. But you [00:50:30] do that so that any person can ride the elevator. So it brings [00:50:35] everybody in no matter what. And you don't really have to get into it. You can just go, yeah, you're [00:50:40] come ride this elevator. So what happened with [00:50:45] neurodiversity is it turned into this movement [00:50:50] of are you neurodivergent or are you neurotypical?[00:50:55]
[00:50:55] And it turned into kind of a, a power move one way or the [00:51:00] other. And, and so this rise of. I'm [00:51:05] neurodivergent, meaning I'm more kind of neurodiverse than you are. [00:51:10] And so I think maybe this naturally happens with things. Humans, we love classifying and [00:51:15] categorizing things, but if you wind up all 8 billion people in the world, you'd never find the [00:51:20] line where divergence starts.
[00:51:22] You know, same way if you lined up people by [00:51:25] color, lightest to darkest, you wouldn't find where black starts. You know? [00:51:30] It's a odd sort of way to go about things this, this [00:51:35] endless need to classify things. What we saw, and we've seen this over the last [00:51:40] 10 years, was, and, and I think this is one of the things, social media being [00:51:45] like WebMD for mental health, like this played a big part in this where [00:51:50] you had fidget spinners and then you had toys [00:51:55] designed for your.
[00:51:57] Divergence, if you will, like [00:52:00] actually marketed towards something. So the, the, the way that we [00:52:05] went about this, which I thought was kind of challenging and maybe risks [00:52:10] being a little too academic and nerdy in some parts was [00:52:15] if you asked me why has rates of autism gone from [00:52:20] one in a thousand, one in 10,000 to like one in 38, depending [00:52:25] on who you ask, something like that, I would say, well, the DSM three came out and they [00:52:30] opened it up for everybody and so everyone can fit into this sort of [00:52:35] thing.
[00:52:35] And then what happened [00:52:40] as well is if you ask a toxins researcher to. [00:52:45] What's going on? They're going, well. They're, we're, we're all, got all these chemicals in us that are all [00:52:50] linked to social, social, behavioral concerns, attention related issues, [00:52:55] um, especially if you look at the levels of these things in, in utero.[00:53:00]
[00:53:00] Um, and so it was all for them. It's, [00:53:05] no, duh, this is all linked, but it's really challenging in, in, in [00:53:10] today's, today's political, social, cultural climate has changed a bit. But [00:53:15] I pull this video of, uh, of the president talking about, you know, [00:53:20] Tylenol and autism and immediately everyone's like, this is crazy.
[00:53:24] It's just [00:53:25] because the DSM opened it for everyone. That's why they're, well, that's also not [00:53:30] cool that everybody gets labeled all the time. That also doesn't really sound like, oh, [00:53:35] that's a great. What does it say about the diagnostics criteria? If you can just [00:53:40] open it up and then everybody can get it. So the other thing, and we didn't write about this in the [00:53:45] book and I wish we did in Australia, in, in like the 2010s, they [00:53:50] introduced new funding for people that were diagnosed with, with auto.
[00:53:54] And so what we saw [00:53:55] is this spike of diagnosing people, 'cause all the workers got more money. Like that also [00:54:00] changed things. So there's all different ways we can kind of look at it from, [00:54:05] from different angles, but. What I, I used the, the [00:54:10] neurodivergence as a bit of a case study in the book because it just stood out [00:54:15] to me as we're actually missing the point of this topic while [00:54:20] simultaneously calling people typical, which is like not cool as [00:54:25] well.
[00:54:25] Like it's, it's, and it's this othering that we, that we kind of had a [00:54:30] problem with that everybody, it, it felt like we were getting stuck in a game [00:54:35] of I'm this, you are that. Um, and before we hit record, I talked about [00:54:40] doing this research project at an alternative school where every person I interviewed talked to me, [00:54:45] they had undiagnosed autism and, um, they were gender non-conforming.[00:54:50]
[00:54:50] And I thought, what, to myself, I thought, why is this so important [00:54:55] that they're meeting a stranger and telling me about their labels? Like, I, I didn't [00:55:00] ask them these things. It just, and so it became sort of in, [00:55:05] in our culture. It really became this sort of, how many of [00:55:10] these labels can I get? And then I saw this at my university, we see this [00:55:15] read, read a lot of workplaces.
[00:55:16] How can we hire people based on we need this, you [00:55:20] know, statistical check mark of people. And I'm going, this is kind of not how, this is like [00:55:25] not good for democracy, I don't think. So that sort of was our view of [00:55:30] this. So we see the label mania, um, going wild and we, [00:55:35] we shared a study that. As children, as, as I think there's a study of a [00:55:40] few hundred kids in California and they, they gave them a, a mental health [00:55:45] symptomology checklist and asked them, do you self-identify as having a, a mental [00:55:50] disorder?
[00:55:50] And those that said yes, two years later when they did the, you know, the post, [00:55:55] uh, uh, the, the survey at the end of the study, two years later, those who dropped the [00:56:00] label had the biggest increase in self-esteem. So we're kind of throwing away, [00:56:05] throwing around these labels that might actually not be helping with like protective [00:56:10] factors.
[00:56:10] And not to say like self-esteem is everything that hype kind of came and went too, but [00:56:15] it's, I think it's an interesting thing when we look at the labeling, like, does [00:56:20] getting this diagnosis. Actually lead to an improved outcome. And I'd [00:56:25] say if we looked at, you know, more people are diagnosed, more people are medicated than ever, more [00:56:30] people see therapists and still everything sucks.
[00:56:33] There's something not adding [00:56:35] up here.
[00:56:35] Stephanie Winn: And then you mix in identity politics, the victimhood [00:56:40] narratives, the secondary gain. You give this example of a girl who has [00:56:45] labeled herself as having borderline personality disorder and that [00:56:50] you showed her the list of traits and said, you know, I don't think you meet these traits.
[00:56:54] And [00:56:55] she was saying, oh, but my, I have a social media presence based around [00:57:00] this, uh, label. And that gets so dangerous. In this case, you were [00:57:05] describing a teenager and you went on to explain that, you know, there's a lot of [00:57:10] disagreement in our field about whether teenagers should be given personality disorder [00:57:15] diagnoses at all.
[00:57:16] I, I personally believe that. Traits of [00:57:20] potential emerging personality disorders should be noted as traits in a [00:57:25] patient's chart so that that can be monitored. And you know, the pattern can be recognized over time, but it's [00:57:30] really dangerous to give someone that label so early on when there are so many [00:57:35] people who would meet criteria for borderline personality disorder at 16 because they're [00:57:40] 16 and, and they can still grow out of it, right?
[00:57:43] But what happens if they get caught up in the [00:57:45] system with that label? And what happens if they overly internalize that label? When is the label [00:57:50] helpful for them to recognize, oh, that's my borderline, as you would with something like [00:57:55] narrative therapy, which you speak of highly, where externalizing the problem, oh, that's my borderline, that's [00:58:00] not me.
[00:58:00] So I have an independent sense of self and that's my disorder. Acting up like that can be helpful, but [00:58:05] just as much there is the, uh, getting sympathy, building an identity on this [00:58:10] thing. And uh, and, and then when it comes to something like [00:58:15] autism. I, I just throw my hands up in the air because I have so many people [00:58:20] coming to me saying that their kid is autistic or was considered for an autism [00:58:25] diagnosis, or that they've, you know, they've gotten them evaluated or they haven't.
[00:58:28] But I [00:58:30] really don't know whether we're looking at the more extreme end of the spectrum, [00:58:35] where, for example, um, a, a high [00:58:40] schooler has to be repeatedly instructed not to touch their private parts in public. [00:58:45] That's a pretty severe form of autism there, and that's, you know, that's going to [00:58:50] warrant a different approach than a kid who's socially awkward.[00:58:55]
[00:58:55] And how much does that have to do with isolation during the pandemic and spending a lot of time online? And the shortage [00:59:00] of experience, which you also write about? Let me flag that. Um. [00:59:05] And so much of what I think benefits the kids who are right on that cusp [00:59:10] of like, maybe they qualify, maybe they don't for that, uh, [00:59:15] autism spectrum diagnosis is it seems to me like they need more co-regulation.
[00:59:19] They need [00:59:20] more quality time, more mirroring, more, um, of [00:59:25] that narration of their inner experience. Oh, we're watching leaves and how they move in the wind. [00:59:30] It's like, it seems like the things that benefit any youth or any therapy [00:59:35] patient, they just need more of those things to help scaffold their [00:59:40] brain and social development in the right direction.
[00:59:42] That's, that's my personal opinion on what they need. [00:59:45] What do you think?
[00:59:45] Will Dobud: Yeah, I would agree with that. I think not, not that we have to go back to talking about [00:59:50] phones or social media, but I think like, I guess this is just a lot of me being kind of [00:59:55] an overthinker of things. I think, okay, you've got this diagnosis now what?[01:00:00]
[01:00:00] And the truth is now what you have to do exact the exact things that you just said. [01:00:05] So what are we gonna do different? Like how is this, this diagnosis going to help us? How can [01:00:10] we move beyond just a word? And you're absolutely right, we need that co-regulation [01:00:15] and the, the, you know, saying the inside part out loud that we can [01:00:20] make meaning and, and reflect on our experience and be in relationship with other [01:00:25] people.
[01:00:25] So I think where, what we saw with the, and the reason we [01:00:30] lumped this into identity politics is it's as if everybody that's a red [01:00:35] person thinks exactly the same. And everyone who's a blue person thinks exactly the same. Where [01:00:40] it's like, this doesn't, this is, this is, as adults, we have to embrace that this is [01:00:45] messy and complicated.
[01:00:46] And if we're going to, you know, if we're gonna say [01:00:50] autism spectrum disorder, that there's this like, like as you were saying, there's like nonverbal [01:00:55] and um, and that, and that and the teenage years can become quite violent. You know, like [01:01:00] you have an, an extreme thing that we're, we're kind of. What, what I saw, especially [01:01:05] in Australia when all this funding came for working with providing social supports and [01:01:10] therapy for young people, like the amount of, and now they're scaling it back 'cause they spent too much [01:01:15] money and it's like, but it's, things come and go in waves [01:01:20] and so in like, like cultural waves.
[01:01:23] And so what, [01:01:25] what I saw was, and we, we wrote about this later in the book and, [01:01:30] and I think this is sort of, I think this captures my thinking on like the rise of [01:01:35] students requiring accommodations in the classroom, especially at universities. [01:01:40] It's, I would not want my classroom and, and I know that [01:01:45] talking about this can immediately be like, oh, what an asshole.
[01:01:48] But I, I don't, I have [01:01:50] nothing here nor there. Like, if a student has accommodation I'll do it. But there's also like, [01:01:55] is this an opportunity where you can learn the subject material you have to learn and. [01:02:00] Learn about yourself and the way that you learn and the way, 'cause I know when I [01:02:05] was diagnosed with A DHD, again, this is a term that does, well, my [01:02:10] wife probably thinks about it more than I do, but like, 'cause I'm annoying to live with, but I know that [01:02:15] I can get hyperfocused.
[01:02:16] Like how, how have I written books like that all happens at one in the [01:02:20] morning, you know, that doesn't happen at 9:00 AM wake up. I should probably write this book right now. [01:02:25] That's just me getting my inside ideas out on paper, you know? [01:02:30] Um, and so I also have a job with a lot of flexibility. So I'm in the [01:02:35] right environment where I'm kind of left alone to do my own thing.
[01:02:38] I work with a great team of [01:02:40] people. Um, I get to write research projects on whatever I want to, and I learn, [01:02:45] uh, learn about new things whenever what, like, whatever. I've got this kind of. Freedom that [01:02:50] high school didn't give me. So the, the, the, let's say if someone did a [01:02:55] brain scan of Will's brand, maybe they'd go, oh my gosh, how a DHD is this person, Edward [01:03:00] Hallowell actually said to me, I got diagnosed by him in Massachusetts, and he said to me, [01:03:05] um, I can't believe you got out of eighth grade.
[01:03:08] I was like, I know. School [01:03:10] sucks, man. This is brutal. You know? But, um, what I see [01:03:15] with the labeling is it's, it should, if, if we really believe that this meant one in [01:03:20] 38 people have autism, wouldn't we have a serious revisiting of [01:03:25] schooling? Like a serious, like what is the most important thing? 'cause it's, it's [01:03:30] gonna be socializing and being together and, and, and learning about [01:03:35] ourselves.
[01:03:35] That's the, the, and going back to my nerding out about experiential, the reason it's [01:03:40] experiential is it's the reflecting on experience. That's how you learn from experience. You don't [01:03:45] just learn by not thinking about what you're doing. So you learn from really thinking [01:03:50] about what happened. Now what, so what, what does any of this mean?
[01:03:54] [01:03:55] And we kind of are, are using these labels to say, now I understand you, but I can't [01:04:00] change anything that I'm doing now. It's all on you. To change.
[01:04:04] Stephanie Winn: I [01:04:05] was nodding and smiling as you were talking about your relationship with your A [01:04:10] DHD. 'cause I also got diagnosed with A DHD in my thirties, you know, by [01:04:15] the time I already had a master's degree in a counseling practice and all these people coming to me, I think I have a [01:04:20] DHD, and they would tell me about it.
[01:04:21] I'm like, well, I guess we all do, or at least I do. And then I [01:04:25] eventually was like, okay, I'll take a label. And, you know, I went through the little honeymoon phase with the [01:04:30] stimulants and it's amazing for five minutes when your brain can [01:04:35] hold seven things in your working memory at once instead of two. Um, that's, that's a nice feeling for [01:04:40] me.
[01:04:40] The heart, heart palpitations and insomnia aren't worth it. Um, and, and so my lifestyle [01:04:45] is very similar to yours. I have a life that works for. The [01:04:50] mind that I have and, you know, I can get things done in bursts. I can [01:04:55] hyperfocus, I can pull something off in a few days that might take someone else [01:05:00] months.
[01:05:00] But if I don't finish it all at once, it's gone forever. Like I, I've [01:05:05] lost my hyperfocus. Sorry. That idea did not make it to fruition. And, and this [01:05:10] is why I'm afraid to let go sometimes when I'm working on a project. 'cause I'm like, if I drop this [01:05:15] project, it's just gonna dis I can't pick it up six months later.
[01:05:19] So I [01:05:20] completely relate to what you're saying, but at the same time, had I gotten [01:05:25] labeled sooner, uh, or, or let's say someone with a [01:05:30] similar temperament and personality to myself. Um, [01:05:35] similar neuro type, you know, to myself, existed in today's environment. [01:05:40] W would I, would they be able to make it to this level of success?
[01:05:42] Would they be able to build that life? Because, [01:05:45] you know, I think the current culture is a lot of using it for the excuse making, right? [01:05:50] What you said is, what do we do with the diagnosis? What does that mean? We need to do with our [01:05:55] lives to, uh, you know, make up for our deficits, for example? And [01:06:00] that's a much different mentality than the secondary game mentality.
[01:06:04] [01:06:05] Let me hide behind this diagnosis. Let me use it as an excuse to fail in the [01:06:10] areas where I struggle. And what I wonder is, who is going to sit down [01:06:15] with these young people and look them in the eyes and say to them, honestly, let's have a [01:06:20] conversation about what you're afraid of. Because this might feel cute and pretty [01:06:25] for now, you know, the safety blanket that you're hiding under of, well, I have this [01:06:30] disorder, so I can't do that, so don't expect it of me.
[01:06:32] And if you expect it of me, you're cruel. [01:06:35] Right? Uh, that might feel comforting for a while, but you will end up [01:06:40] seriously, uh, inhibited and [01:06:45] behind in life in ways that are gonna be really unpleasant to live with the consequences of. So [01:06:50] can we maybe help you face your fears, shame, inadequacy, you know, fear of growing up, fear of [01:06:55] responsibility.
[01:06:55] Can we help you face those one by one so that this label doesn't become an obstacle?
[01:06:59] Will Dobud: I could not [01:07:00] agree more. And that's where we have to sit down with young people, especially when these [01:07:05] terms are. Thrown around and they're thrown around in, in this medicalized [01:07:10] like fashion where there's like, there's no biopsy for these things.
[01:07:13] So, uh, you [01:07:15] know, that's like sort of the, I remember doing the A DHD test and I was like, this is so [01:07:20] boring. I was like pushing a button when a light turns on or something. I was like, what am I doing here? [01:07:25] Like, and so there's no biopsy for these things. So these are sort of, [01:07:30] they're ideas of what's going on with your, your [01:07:35] neurotype, as you said.
[01:07:36] And I think I, and people like this is, this is [01:07:40] kind of funny 'cause I'll talk about this with students and you've experienced me for over an hour now. And I, I [01:07:45] say, listen, if I get off topic, just raise your hand and say, will I don't follow. And [01:07:50] then students will come up to me and they're like, you're my A DHD superhero.
[01:07:53] And I go, no. That's kind of [01:07:55] like a trigger warning. That's not me saying I'm, I'm telling you. This is what I'll [01:08:00] do because I know myself and I know how I'll, how I'll act and [01:08:05] what will happen and I'll be impulsive. And I like what you said about not finishing a project on [01:08:10] Friday. Um, there, there was an argument on social media about wilderness [01:08:15] therapy stuff, which I have researched about.
[01:08:17] And, uh, someone came at me about wilderness [01:08:20] therapy and definitions and, uh, my wife was at work, I was working at home and she said, come to work [01:08:25] with me and, and do some work in my office. I was like, sure. I went there and I wrote 3000 [01:08:30] words in like three hours of a peer review paper. It's still open behind our thing.
[01:08:34] Haven't [01:08:35] touched it. Like, I was like, that's boring, you know? I was like, so my, my list [01:08:40] of unfinished projects is very long as well. But I think when you, [01:08:45] if you are, let's go back to like autism and you're, and socially, you know, [01:08:50] that you have some quirks that might make socializing difficult. I [01:08:55] think the, the gift is to really lean into that.
[01:08:58] Then really [01:09:00] lean into how does this make you, I mean, so special and [01:09:05] awesome, like how does this make you amazing? Like, and I think [01:09:10] instead of observe, like, like we talked about this, like the oppression Olympics, instead of [01:09:15] just bringing in more identifiers about, and I [01:09:20] think it worked in, in, in, in the, the power way, like you said, it gets you out of [01:09:25] things, you know, I think, and Nevin wrote about.
[01:09:27] And I think [01:09:30] for those to under, like, I think looking at things internationally is really interesting that [01:09:35] in North America, this is a far bigger phenomenon than, than say in Australia or other [01:09:40] countries where I've been lucky to go. But like Nevin, um, [01:09:45] teaches in a, he taught in the child and youth care, um, department.
[01:09:48] He's in the faculty of health now. My, [01:09:50] this is my co-author and he also teaches education, um, every now and then. [01:09:55] And he had students with, um. Accommodation plans for [01:10:00] no public speaking and no group projects. And he started saying to [01:10:05] the students, how are you going to prepare yourself to run a classroom if [01:10:10] you've never practiced public speaking?
[01:10:13] And so I, I'm not a [01:10:15] very nervous public speaker, but I grew up playing music. So I'm used to being on a stage, but [01:10:20] everybody should be nervous about public speaking. It's scary, you know, [01:10:25] I'll watch this when this episode comes out and think, gosh, I should have said that more clearly. You [01:10:30] know, like that's how, that's how that works.
[01:10:32] So I think being an adult that's present [01:10:35] with, okay, now what, what are we going to do with this? [01:10:40] And so then learning things like my, my wife knows that sometimes I'll come to bed at one in the morning 'cause [01:10:45] I've been working on a project and she knows that I will sit in bed and be annoying, [01:10:50] fidgeting if I don't write that project out.
[01:10:52] So knowing yourself is, is [01:10:55] really important. Um. She also knows, like if we're on a holiday, on [01:11:00] vacation, summer, she works in travel. So we're really lucky we get to travel a lot. Like I do need [01:11:05] a few hours to work every day, otherwise I'll never be present, you [01:11:10] know, and it's like, if you know those things, we can be in a relationship where [01:11:15] like she, she stinks at working from home.
[01:11:17] So I know when she comes home, I better put my work [01:11:20] down and hang out with my wife and then I can go back to work later. Like having these knowing [01:11:25] yourself is really important. Um, if we're, if we're gonna understand ourselves through [01:11:30] these, you know, these labels and, and terms. Well,
[01:11:33] Stephanie Winn: I think, uh, your wife and [01:11:35] my husband might have a lot in common.
[01:11:38] I like, I'm the same way. I [01:11:40] mean, we could be on vacation, the first week of vacation is relaxing, but then the work impulse [01:11:45] comes back. Yeah. And I'm like, I, I have to go write this down. I got the creative inspiration. Yeah. [01:11:50] We also had a moment, um, I needed his help with something that was glitching on my computer the other day.[01:11:55]
[01:11:56] And I pulled him in and of course his solution is you need to shut everything down and [01:12:00] turn it. And he said he wanted me to close out all these programs. Oh my gosh. And I'm just about how to meltdown. Yes. Because I'm like, [01:12:05] if I close all these windows, I'm never gonna remember the five projects I was working on.[01:12:10]
[01:12:10] Will Dobud: Yes, exactly.
[01:12:11] Stephanie Winn: Uh, but you talk about people using their anxiety or their whatever [01:12:15] diagnosis as an excuse to get out of things. And you and I, as mental health professionals know, and I think you get, [01:12:20] you did a good job of articulating this in the book, how incredibly counterproductive that is, because [01:12:25] these are the things that build your sense of identity.
[01:12:27] And, and, and it's just reinforcing [01:12:30] that sense. I am someone who doesn't have the strength to do X, Y, or Z. [01:12:35] Right. And, and how are you ever going to build genuine confidence if [01:12:40] you're constantly avoiding things and then it feeds back into the cycle of anxiety?
[01:12:43] Will Dobud: Yeah. And it leads to as [01:12:45] well, um. And this is also in my, in my head [01:12:50] at the moment about, um, this, this, this will really kill you.
[01:12:52] I was gonna do a keynote at this conference about this [01:12:55] very topic, and then the conference got canceled. So now I have this whole presentation in my head [01:13:00] that I can't deliver on. So you're gonna get a chunk of it here now. So you should do
[01:13:03] Stephanie Winn: it
[01:13:04] Will Dobud: on
[01:13:04] Stephanie Winn: YouTube. [01:13:05]
[01:13:05] Will Dobud: Yeah. I, I thought about doing that. Yeah. But one of the things like I've been thinking about is it also [01:13:10] leads to, this is gonna sound like a leap, so bear with me and, and challenge me about [01:13:15] this as well, please.
[01:13:17] It leads to this sort of [01:13:20] institutionalizing of our thinking. And what I mean by that is [01:13:25] I, I'll go to the university support and we're, I'm just talking about the [01:13:30] university context, but I think it's the same in high school. I'm gonna go and get this [01:13:35] written down that I get 15 extra minutes per hour on an exam or something.
[01:13:39] [01:13:40] Cool. We put it out there and then there's this inherent [01:13:45] assumption that I can't do the exam unless I have this, so then I'm back at the [01:13:50] support services who are all wonderful people doing their job, of course. And then [01:13:55] it creates this cycle of being caught up instead of just [01:14:00] thinking for yourself about things.
[01:14:03] And so it, it doesn't lead to this [01:14:05] sort of intellectual freedom to do your own work, do your [01:14:10] own thing, know who you are so that you can know. [01:14:15] When someone's pulling the rug out from under you. And so instead of this [01:14:20] teacher is making fun of accommodations, what an asshole. I'm sitting there going, no, [01:14:25] I, I do want you to be your best self.
[01:14:26] And if you need extra 15 minutes, you can just ask me. I, [01:14:30] I'll give it to you. What do I care? You know, but what it's wrapped up in the [01:14:35] label and the mental health terminology, and then it gets wrapped up in the system [01:14:40] on your medical charts on these, you're kind of, you're, [01:14:45] you can start to be doing yourself a disservice.
[01:14:48] And I see this a lot, especially being [01:14:50] a social work educator, which is mostly a, you know, you know. Women [01:14:55] dominated profession and women in, you know, coming back to university [01:15:00] usually in their thirties or forties. It's usually a later career change. And when you are talking [01:15:05] about your experience, there was many who said, I had the euphoria.
[01:15:07] When I finally realized I have a [01:15:10] DHD and this is how my brain works. And I'm going, great. Now you get to know yourself [01:15:15] as a learner and that gives you the freedom. To know how to work [01:15:20] the way to construct your workplace, the way to take care of yourself if you're on vacation, [01:15:25] the way to be in relationship with other people, and that is the real freedom [01:15:30] of this.
[01:15:30] We're just the institutionalized. I get 15 more minutes. That's not [01:15:35] really going to help you that much.
[01:15:37] Stephanie Winn: Are you a therapist in need of continuing [01:15:40] education that's not over the top woke? Check out my colleague Lisa Mustard's pod courses. [01:15:45] All of her pod courses are approved by the National Board for Certified Counselors.
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[01:16:16] I'll include that link and coupon in the show notes for your convenience. [01:16:20] Alright, now back to the show.
[01:16:22] Will Dobud: The leap I was gonna make about this, about being a psychotherapist [01:16:25] is I was trained in solution focused. Loved it. It hit me at 20 years old, like, oh my [01:16:30] gosh, why doesn't everybody do this? And then I started going to solution focused conferences and [01:16:35] I saw the whole, you're not as solution focused as you're supposed to be.
[01:16:38] And I was like, okay, [01:16:40] see y'all later. I'm done with this club. Like, I still like the ideas, but I was like, I don't need to [01:16:45] be in that inner circle anymore. Like they, they're bullies about the, what term [01:16:50] did you ask the miracle question the right way. You're, you're being, you're being you. Why are you even [01:16:55] talking about the diagnoses?
[01:16:56] Like all like, I was like, oh, this is like a bullying club, you know? [01:17:00] And then like, wilderness therapy, same thing. I was like, Hey, we should probably not kill kids. [01:17:05] They were like, uh, will, you should stop talking about this. I'm like, ah, okay. See y'all later. I'm out. You know [01:17:10] that getting out of that is the real freedom to be able to do whatever you want.[01:17:15]
[01:17:15] So I think that sometimes there's this. Notion that the, that [01:17:20] this label is going to lead to something. And I think at first we see [01:17:25] the euphoria of, oh my gosh, I get it. And I think just like you and I were, was talking about [01:17:30] now what, how, how, if I learn, how I learn, how can I do [01:17:35] more learning in the style of learning that I want to do, which I think is actually [01:17:40] really individualistic.
[01:17:41] And, and knowing who you are so you can bring your [01:17:45] best self to a neurodiverse space
[01:17:48] Stephanie Winn: in your, in your section on [01:17:50] borderline personality disorder, you said that even Marsha Linehan, [01:17:55] who invented dialectical behavioral therapy for the treatment of borderline personality disorder, one of the [01:18:00] most respected names in the field of treating BPD, even she said.
[01:18:04] [01:18:05] She does not advise patients to tell their medical professionals that they have BPD because [01:18:10] she knows that they will be discriminated against and that, you know, their health concerns might not be [01:18:15] taken seriously. And, and that is an example of [01:18:20] being alert and thinking for yourself about what is in your best [01:18:25] interest, regardless of what your hindrances might be.
[01:18:27] Or maybe especially bearing in mind what your personal [01:18:30] limitations might be. You know, it reminds me of did you see this clip that went viral this week of the [01:18:35] guy, uh, talking about norm's, psychos and schizos?
[01:18:39] Will Dobud: [01:18:40] No, I didn't see that. That's funny.
[01:18:43] Stephanie Winn: It, I loved it. And [01:18:45] then I saw, I started seeing a lot of posts.
[01:18:46] Of course, this is how sensitive the algorithm is. I don't know, like, [01:18:50] maybe people were always talking about this, but because I liked and shared the video, now I'm seeing all the [01:18:55] tweets about it. But, you know, but there's a discourse that has been sparked about, [01:19:00] here's this premise, right? But. That psychos benefit [01:19:05] from the naivete of normies who don't know how to spot psychos because normies are [01:19:10] normies and they project their normal, empathetic way of thinking [01:19:15] onto other people.
[01:19:15] Don't recognize the predatory, exploitative nature of [01:19:20] psychos. Psychos are running the world controlling the normies, and you know who gets a bad rap? [01:19:25] Schizos. Schizos is a natural predator. Of psychos because they're just [01:19:30] crazy enough to know what the psychos are up to, but they're not here to hurt the [01:19:35] normies.
[01:19:35] They're here to protect the normies. So he basically, in a very colorful manner, makes this case. And now I'm seeing [01:19:40] all these people saying, yeah, let's, let's look out for our schizos. And, and I [01:19:45] thought, you know, I think I have just enough schizo in me to appreciate what he is saying, because I [01:19:50] can get a little, like, I have that little bit of conspiracy theorist edge to me.
[01:19:54] In fact, one [01:19:55] of my favorite negative reviews in my podcast, like, if you're gonna leave a negative review, at least make it [01:20:00] entertaining. Right? So this one, uh, the, the title of the review was, you must be some kind of [01:20:05] conspiracy theorist. I was like, okay, well at least be clever. Um, but [01:20:10] you know, one thing about the schizotypal mentality that he's referring [01:20:15] to is that skepticism of the, the fact that there are.
[01:20:19] People out [01:20:20] there to exploit your weaknesses. And that's the real irony of [01:20:25] all these young people who are so, um, they're making themselves so [01:20:30] vulnerable with these labels totally in a number of ways. One is their fragile mentality that they [01:20:35] themselves do not believe that they can take the test in the, in an hour.
[01:20:38] Uh, they, they don't [01:20:40] believe that they can rise to the occasion. They believe they need all these accommodations. [01:20:45] Um, but it's also that they're bearing themselves to the world saying, I have no [01:20:50] self-esteem. I like, I think I need all this sympathy. And then just making it so [01:20:55] easy for the predatory psychos of the world to present themselves [01:21:00] and their agendas as the solution when really, um, they're, they're just [01:21:05] there to capitalize off of their weaknesses.
[01:21:07] So I think from a somewhat paranoid [01:21:10] schizoid position, yeah, we can actually make a case for, [01:21:15] you know, even the young people with borderline personality disorder as Marshall Lenahan herself said, [01:21:20] like maybe not putting that on full display, maybe guarding your heart a little bit more. [01:21:25]
[01:21:25] Will Dobud: A hundred percent.
[01:21:26] Th that's so well said, and I could not agree more. And it [01:21:30] reminded me of, um, I chopped this from the introduction, but I, I might write a substack about this [01:21:35] experience when I was doing my. My Bachelor of social work degree, I was working at [01:21:40] all of these wilderness therapy programs 'cause I just loved the outdoors, I loved the therapy stuff.
[01:21:44] I was just [01:21:45] learning. I was, I would go anywhere, I'd even volunteer. And my serious girlfriend at the time, that [01:21:50] relationship died because of work. 'cause I was like, I need to go outside and be camping and stuff. [01:21:55] And when I had to do my internship, my first internship was at a, um, [01:22:00] a clinic for adults with severe and persistent mental illness.
[01:22:03] Now I had no desire to work with adults [01:22:05] or severe and persistent mental illness. I was adolescent in the outdoors the whole time. [01:22:10] And I got to this place, it was a, it was in a, like a strip mall next to a thrift shop in a seven [01:22:15] 11 out in Gaithersburg, Maryland. And, um. I [01:22:20] got there, I had to pick up, I would, I'd get there, get this 18 seater van drive to [01:22:25] the supportive living facility, which was about 10 minutes down the road.
[01:22:28] Pick up all of these adults with [01:22:30] schizophrenia, antisocial person, you know, everything under the sun. And [01:22:35] then we'd come back and then we'd do day programs together. It was kind of like babysitting adults. We do [01:22:40] group therapy about your medications, like group, you know, psycho. I
[01:22:43] Stephanie Winn: had the same job.
[01:22:44] Will Dobud: [01:22:45] Okay. Yeah,
[01:22:46] Stephanie Winn: we had the same life.
[01:22:47] Will Dobud: Yeah. That's so cool. I, I loved it. [01:22:50] I thought I would hate it. There was an exercise program that, um, when I [01:22:55] got there and the exercise program was, uh, we had to do, do exercise like three times a week, but it would, the [01:23:00] person before me just took them to the mall, like to a Westfield shopping mall. And they all just sat in the [01:23:05] food crowd.
[01:23:05] I was like, we're gonna go to the Potomac River and walk, like, we're going to [01:23:10] go walk along the tow path along the canal. And they were like, is this risky? I was like. No [01:23:15] donkeys walked the towpath to build Washington DC We will be. Okay. So we're [01:23:20] finding turtles and doing all of these fun things. It was a blast.
[01:23:23] And one day, one of [01:23:25] my, one of the clients did, didn't show up. He was one who came on his own, didn't get in the van with [01:23:30] me. He didn't show up. And the boss comes in and she goes, oh, that person, he's taking [01:23:35] part in a clinical trial. And I said, okay. And I looked through his file. This was like [01:23:40] his 20th clinical trial, right?
[01:23:43] And then I looked at who, [01:23:45] how did he get involved in this clinical, like what was, he was here yesterday, like what changed [01:23:50] from yesterday to today? And I looked in it, and the, the [01:23:55] service that we were providing, we were billing state, you know, state funding every day. So our notes to [01:24:00] get, to get our funding, and I'm obviously a free worker from the university.
[01:24:04] [01:24:05] We were owned by a pharmaceutical company who also owned the f, [01:24:10] the supported living facility. So I started looking at everyone's file and [01:24:15] everyone had been in multiple clinical trials, so there was no actual agenda for us to help [01:24:20] people. So where were we? We're in Montgomery County, Maryland, where NIH is.
[01:24:24] So [01:24:25] we're bankrolling million dollar studies for new medications for [01:24:30] schizophrenia, no desire. So there's no mention in in these studies. [01:24:35] These are the same 20 people that we did our study on last year with the same 20 [01:24:40] people. So there's actually this, who gets better if they go right back to adult [01:24:45] daycare with supported living.
[01:24:47] And so I started going, what the hell is [01:24:50] going on? And so I left there going, I loved being around those [01:24:55] people and I hated the institution that I was supporting. And when I [01:25:00] left, started working in Australia. My wife's Australian, so I started going to Australia. And [01:25:05] I looked back at my work in wilderness therapy.
[01:25:07] I started going, how is [01:25:10] nobody talking about like the forced kidnapping of children? Like this is why Paris Hilton endorsed our [01:25:15] book. Like, 'cause Nevin and I started writing out and going, actually the researchers are [01:25:20] all funded by the industry. They've never admitted anything critical about this [01:25:25] kind of, you know, very involuntary practice and this institutionalizing of [01:25:30] children and I was just like, how is no.
[01:25:32] So I think very much we do [01:25:35] need to support the people that are calling people out and we use this video, I don't know if you've seen this one, [01:25:40] about being the first follower of somebody. Like that's more important [01:25:45] to building a movement than being the lone voice, that the best thing we [01:25:50] can do is support the people that we think are raising the alarm as well.
[01:25:54] The [01:25:55] schizos as you'd say. So I think very early in my career I started and [01:26:00] growing up in like a, like a punk rock community. It was always about calling, calling things out. Same. Yes. [01:26:05] Always about calling things out. And so I was just like, what? Hey, social work [01:26:10] degree, my teachers. Why, why are we not doing something about like, these are the [01:26:15] most vulnerable people like in the world, and why are we okay with them just [01:26:20] being rats in clinical trials and while these researchers get super rich off [01:26:25] all this funding?
[01:26:26] You know? And then this is the part like where my mom and I, we [01:26:30] love politics and we argue about it all the time. When, when the current administration like removes some [01:26:35] funding for NIHI go, well they've gotten away with a lot of dodgy [01:26:40] shit people. Like, and you know, that's not my, the way I lean politically, but I was [01:26:45] like the, like also, if you really knew this, there's a lot of icky here.[01:26:50]
[01:26:50] Like, and, and, and how these ideas come to, you know, fruition. Like, I mean, [01:26:55] we wrote about the history of Ritalin. Like that was a chemist coming up with [01:27:00] synthesized methylphenidate to test it on his wife so she could lose weight and [01:27:05] focus on her tennis a bit more. Her name was Marguerite, so he called it the Rita Line.
[01:27:09] [01:27:10] Ritalin, you know, Adderall was the name of Adderall is a weight loss drug. [01:27:15] Um, OALL, and I think that was what it's called. And then the guy who bought it [01:27:20] hired a marketing team who said a DD for all Adderall. Like, he's like, he thought it [01:27:25] was inclusive language. And it's like these, some of these ideas don't come from [01:27:30] laboratories of ethics, you know, and so I'm with you.
[01:27:33] We've gotta support the people who [01:27:35] are calling things out.
[01:27:36] Stephanie Winn: So what you're saying is you're a schizo too.
[01:27:38] Will Dobud: Yes. [01:27:40]
[01:27:40] Stephanie Winn: Yeah. Nothing quite like that club of us Schizos who are just smart enough to pass for [01:27:45] Normies whenever we want to. Right. Like we're the most dangerous people in the world, but we use our powers for [01:27:50] good.
[01:27:50] Yeah. Um, so you were talking about wilderness therapy, taking people [01:27:55] outdoors. There's a chapter leader in your book where you talk about the shortage of experience. And [01:28:00] I, I think earlier in the interview I was hearing you referring to that as well, like when we were talking [01:28:05] about how schools are really lacking in the types of experiences that they [01:28:10] allow kids to learn from, for example.
[01:28:12] So I, I'd like to bring it home for [01:28:15] especially the parents and the audience right now. 'cause this is something I notice them struggling with too. Um, [01:28:20] you know, I, I talk to a lot of parents who are fortunately, you know, affluent and [01:28:25] well-intentioned enough to be able to afford their kids lots of extracurriculars, but they're still like.[01:28:30]
[01:28:30] Experience gets confined to these extracurricular spaces, and you and I grew up punk [01:28:35] rock kids, so we, our experiences were not confined to the, uh, to the safe [01:28:40] extracurriculars. Right. We were in the mosh pit. Yeah. We were in protest. Um, mm-hmm. Not, not to say [01:28:45] that those are the best experiences to have, but what types of [01:28:50] experiences do we wanna support young people having and, and what do we need to do as a [01:28:55] society and what can parents do to support those developmentally appropriate experiences?
[01:28:59] Will Dobud: The book is [01:29:00] kind of outlined where we interviewed different sort of experts in the field and we [01:29:05] interviewed, um, Alan Beat Hansen sanded for this chapter, the Extinction of Experience. [01:29:10] And Ellen is like in Scandinavia, she's in Norway. She's like the foremost [01:29:15] researcher on risky play and rough and tumble play.
[01:29:18] And [01:29:20] Nevin actually on, on Nevin Harper MacArthur on his substack. He re-interviewed her [01:29:25] recently and. She said some, some things I wish she had [01:29:30] said when, when we talked to her for the book as well. But one of the things is I, [01:29:35] there can be a bit too much instruction and kids need to play in [01:29:40] roughhouse. So rough and tumble play in Norway, they're actually starting to prescribe [01:29:45] children that come to the clinics that are, that say, I, I might be autistic.
[01:29:49] It's like, [01:29:50] okay, well let's get you and go do some rough and tumble play. Uh, and also the great [01:29:55] thing of rough and tumble play is if you want your kids to learn about consent, they will sort this [01:30:00] out. They will learn what stop means, you know, and know I don't want to rough [01:30:05] house anymore. But what happens, and, and Ellen talked to Nevin about this, um, [01:30:10] project she did like 20 years ago where she was whittling, um, doing [01:30:15] whittling activities with young people that were, um, in, in, uh, in a, in a jail, in a [01:30:20] incarcerated facility, right?
[01:30:22] And she said the jail was so scared of [01:30:25] giving these kids knives. Right. And she said, don't worry, it will be okay. And they're doing [01:30:30] something and one might get a cut. And at the end of the study that she was doing, they said, yeah, you know, I [01:30:35] learned how to better use a knife. Like I know the mistake I made this and that.
[01:30:39] So really [01:30:40] what we tend to do is jump to the worst possible thing that could happen. [01:30:45] And what that does is it makes us go, let's not give that a try. But the other [01:30:50] thing that happens is when we're on the sidelines, let's say you're watching your kid climb a [01:30:55] tree, right? They might fall out of that tree.
[01:30:57] That's the risk they're taking, right? [01:31:00] The second you go watch out for that branch, you've actually [01:31:05] distracted your kid from the thing that they're doing now they're climbing a tree and worrying about your [01:31:10] anxiety. So one thing that's really helpful, I found this as someone who [01:31:15] I've never been a dog owner before, and we got a bulldog 10 years ago, [01:31:20] and I'll tell you, I knew nothing about dogs.
[01:31:23] My wife had never had a dog. [01:31:25] Sometimes me being around people that have had dogs really lowers my [01:31:30] anxiety. You know, why is he eating grass? Well, it's okay. [01:31:35] I go, okay, you know, he's doing dog things, you know, is he sick? Is [01:31:40] his allergies as bad as before? He's okay. You know, and so. [01:31:45] I learned a lot from being around other adults.
[01:31:47] What has happened in the [01:31:50] western world in our communities is we often live in places where we don't know our neighbors [01:31:55] and we don't have time with our kids, with other adults around. So even this notion [01:32:00] of a play date, I mean, I grew up in a neighborhood where we just went to the park and [01:32:05] saw what kids are there.
[01:32:06] And so that has really changed. This is [01:32:10] something that's really changed for kids where they don't see you with other adults as often [01:32:15] as before. So one of the things you can do is just set up times [01:32:20] where your kids can be with other kids without you involved. And yes, [01:32:25] something bad might happen, but at what cost is it taking this [01:32:30] away and having this safety, safety, safety.
[01:32:33] Um, and this, I, I think [01:32:35] being from Washington, DC I will say, um. One of the most [01:32:40] amazing things that happened, and this is sort of context that me as a, you know, I, [01:32:45] I like writing about this stuff too and doing presentations about it. In the [01:32:50] eighties, DC was the murder capital of the country, right? That's, this is a bit before my time.
[01:32:54] [01:32:55] I was just a baby in the eighties, so it was the murder capital of the country. [01:33:00] But simultaneously, one of the best youth driven, [01:33:05] DIY punk music scenes emerged with Fugazi, minor threat, bad brains, [01:33:10] teen idols, rites of spring, these amazing bands. What happened [01:33:15] at the time, and many of these were, you know, some of them like Ian mackay, they were like [01:33:20] private school kids at Georgetown Day School, but they wanted to play music [01:33:25] and they had some values about that.
[01:33:28] They thought every show should be [01:33:30] all ages. But the way, the reason this movement. [01:33:35] Really grew was really because venues would open their doors on the [01:33:40] weekends during the daytime. So everything was a matinee show, right? [01:33:45] So they'd close the bar and say, all these kids can come roughhouse right in [01:33:50] this, in this venue.
[01:33:51] Now, if you look at pictures of, like you said, of punk [01:33:55] shows, it looks violent, right? It looks like here are, here's the scum of the [01:34:00] earth roughhousing together. Now that movement was, you have bad [01:34:05] brains. So you have a, you have a a, a predominantly, you have a black punk band that is in [01:34:10] this predominantly white genre of music.
[01:34:12] You had people from all walks of life. It was [01:34:15] a very, uh, woman driven, uh, scene at the time as well. There's [01:34:20] great journalism books about the women of punk in punk rock in Washington, DC They're amazing. [01:34:25] So you had this entire movement. Was actually designed about giving [01:34:30] kids a safe place to do things that we don't like the look of as long as they're [01:34:35] home before dark, so the adults kind of left them alone.
[01:34:39] [01:34:40] But the parents were terrified. It was the murder capital of, of the world, of the of [01:34:45] of America, you know, and then what you had simultaneously is you [01:34:50] have Ian McKay writing about, you know, being straight edge. And that became its own kind of annoying [01:34:55] movement too, as well. But being straight edge, also PETA is getting very [01:35:00] popular.
[01:35:00] So then you have veganism in the punk scene, right? All these things [01:35:05] inspire, were inspired by this amazing movement of leaving the kids alone. [01:35:10] Now, what's really funny about that, we remember like, speaking of conspiracy, what's really funny, like, like the [01:35:15] Pizzagate, the story about like Hillary Clinton and, and you know, eating babies at, uh, at [01:35:20] Comet Pizza.
[01:35:21] Comet Pizza is one of those venues I've played punk shows at Comet [01:35:25] Pizza. You know, it's an amazing, it's got ping pong and shitty pizza and pizza's, okay? And [01:35:30] then they let kids play punk music, any band that want it. It's an amazing story of when you leave [01:35:35] the kids alone, they usually really sort it out.
[01:35:38] Right. And I see this as [01:35:40] also as an ice hockey player. If I go to the rink and a five-year-old [01:35:45] shows up for, you know, a pickup game of ice hockey, everyone goes, cool. [01:35:50] And the kid can play and play with people that are better than them. Worse than them. [01:35:55] And so everyone's kind of in it together. And I think that is the sort of thing I think [01:36:00] as I finished writing kids these days, my head was in this place of democracy [01:36:05] and participation.
[01:36:06] What have we given kids to participate? And I think the punk [01:36:10] community is a really great one because what do we want to do? We're going there to express [01:36:15] ourselves and the rough house. And maybe that's something developmentally many of us need. [01:36:20] Maybe a good mosh pit could save your life. Who knows? [01:36:25]
[01:36:25] Stephanie Winn: That's a great quote.
[01:36:27] Yeah. It's like, let kids [01:36:30] play and I mean, gosh, I, I scared the daylights out on my mother with the things I did as a [01:36:35] teen. And to be fair, they were very scary. They would've been very scary for any parent. [01:36:40] And now when parents join my course and one of my introductory videos, it's like, welcome to the course.
[01:36:44] I'm like, [01:36:45] here's my personal background and why I'm uniquely suited to operate at this [01:36:50] intersection of, you know, helping my Gen X and Boomer clients understand [01:36:55] their. Gen Z and Alpha kids as this elder millennial, I consider myself [01:37:00] honorary Gen Z. Um, yeah. Or excuse me, honorary, um, gen X. Yeah. 'cause I'm [01:37:05] married into Gen X.
[01:37:05] Um, yeah, I was thinking as you were talking about how we were talking about climbing trees like my [01:37:10] husband, gen X, he, uh, we saw some parent shouting at a kid in a tree [01:37:15] the other day and he was like, when I was growing up, I could be in a tree for two hours before anybody noticed I was in a [01:37:20] tree.
[01:37:20] Will Dobud: Yeah.
[01:37:21] That's a crawl suits. So, yeah.
[01:37:23] Stephanie Winn: Yeah. I mean, I did some really, really [01:37:25] risky stuff as a teenager, and I'm not saying that it was the smartest, but, [01:37:30] uh, but I, I survived and I developed like a thick skin despite being a [01:37:35] sensitive soul, if that makes sense.
[01:37:36] Will Dobud: Absolutely.
[01:37:37] Stephanie Winn: Let's close on one, one more of your [01:37:40] hopeful messages for, uh, parents and others who are worried about the [01:37:45] younger generation.
[01:37:45] Will Dobud: So I know that we started this with what, what, what do you, what are you gonna [01:37:50] notice? And, um. When I came to Australia, I started a [01:37:55] small nonprofit, um, doing outdoor expeditions with kids and normal [01:38:00] private practice stuff. And I, I used it as like my [01:38:05] laboratory to test out things that I was thinking about.
[01:38:08] And one of the things we [01:38:10] did, we built this parenting, it was a while, we were out on [01:38:15] expeditions for, for 14 days. The parents had a, like a short 10 minute webinar that [01:38:20] they got every day and a workbook that went along with, with our program and then stuff for [01:38:25] them to do. And before we went on the, on the [01:38:30] expedition, I had a call with each of the, each of the families, um, with the parents.
[01:38:34] And I said, [01:38:35] listen, us therapy people, we, we might have Doctor on [01:38:40] in front of our name or MSW after it, right? We've studied a lot, but we [01:38:45] can also. Get in the weeds on the wrong stuff. Like we can get stuck in our own [01:38:50] head and thinking what's important? And I just need to know before I take this kid [01:38:55] basically camping and hiking and canoeing and doing all this fun stuff for 14 days, what are the [01:39:00] things you do not want me to change about your child?
[01:39:03] And I [01:39:05] didn't really care what they said, I just wanted them to think about it. And [01:39:10] I think many of us know that despite how, you [01:39:15] know, divided the world seems and how, um, frustrating [01:39:20] technology is and how, you know, invasive mental health [01:39:25] concepts are, that if we pause and actually look [01:39:30] at what these kids have been through COVID, you know, all of these [01:39:35] things, they did kind of get on with it for the most part.
[01:39:38] And there's kids that are, and [01:39:40] families that are really struggling and I want them to know [01:39:45] that. That people we know, we can see, we can see that struggle. [01:39:50] And with, when I'm talking to parents, I want them to know that I hear their concerns. I [01:39:55] also want to know the other side of the story. So for every tale of [01:40:00] hardship and difficulty, there is a story of survival in there.
[01:40:04] And I [01:40:05] wanna know why you keep going. What made you pick up the phone and find, you [01:40:10] know, 'cause your, your child's not gonna Google will Doba and say, Hey mom, send [01:40:15] me to go see this guy. You know, um, that if we pay attention to the, [01:40:20] to how we notice things, it can be really good. And the, the example I, [01:40:25] I think I took this out of the book, but like if, if Renee and I have had an argument, [01:40:30] it's tempting to make that argument go on.
[01:40:32] Like, oh, she's so wrong. And then she's sitting there, why is [01:40:35] he chewing with his mouth open? How annoying is he? Instead of going, I get to live with my best friend. [01:40:40] That is gonna involve arguing and it's gonna involve being annoying, but what a [01:40:45] treat. I think that about my young adult children who, you know, I'm trying to be like, Hey, [01:40:50] move out.
[01:40:51] And then I'm like, I'm gonna miss this when they move out, you know? And they're amazing [01:40:55] kids. Like they're incredible. And I'm just like, yeah, they are really annoying. But at the same [01:41:00] time, this is actually a really precious time. How great is this? You know? So, [01:41:05] you know, it's okay to be like. The kids are annoying.
[01:41:09] You know, [01:41:10] every adult has said it, so it must just be adult phenomenon. You know, we, I know you read, when you read the book, like [01:41:15] we trace this back to Socrates whinging about the kids that's before Christ, you know, [01:41:20] 400 years before Christ. And he is saying, these kids are disrespectful to adults. They're [01:41:25] lazy.
[01:41:25] You know, going into the early 19 hundreds, everybody was scared of advanced [01:41:30] locomotion. Outward Bound was founded on this idea. The kids are outta shape and lazy [01:41:35] because of advanced locomotion. That was the 1930s. So it's good to go. [01:41:40] It's okay to complain about modern times. We, we have only lived in modern times, every [01:41:45] time as modern to what you live in.
[01:41:47] Also notice that those kids are [01:41:50] also adapting to the modern times, usually pretty okay. And some are really [01:41:55] struggling. And that's, that's, you know, important to notice that and listen and hear [01:42:00] it out. Um, but also to notice the things that are great and you can find [01:42:05] more of those great things by doing things together, having dinner together as a family, those sort of [01:42:10] things.
[01:42:10] And having great conversations.
[01:42:13] Stephanie Winn: Well, I think that's a fabulous [01:42:15] note to end on. Uh, will Doba, thank you so much for joining us. So, [01:42:20] um, everyone, his book, I'm gonna hold it up to the screen. If you are watching on YouTube Kids these [01:42:25] days, understanding and Supporting Youth Mental Health by Will Dobo and Nevin Harper.
[01:42:29] [01:42:30] Um, people can find this everywhere. Books are found.
[01:42:32] Will Dobud: Yep. Maybe
[01:42:33] Stephanie Winn: in
[01:42:34] Will Dobud: store, in your [01:42:35] nice book, you know, nice independent bookstore if you wanted to support your bookstore. Um, but yeah, [01:42:40] anywhere, Amazon, anywhere you buy your books.
[01:42:42] Stephanie Winn: Where else can people find you?
[01:42:43] Will Dobud: I'm pretty open [01:42:45] book, so, and my name is really, uh, simple to find me.
[01:42:48] So any of the social media [01:42:50] platforms, I try to be active on that, um, when it's not soul destroying. [01:42:55] And, um, I, uh, um, will dobo.com, you can get in touch with [01:43:00] me. Um, and anyway, I just, the, the, the coolest thing about doing, doing this book and [01:43:05] drifting away from the outdoor therapy field, um, uh, in, in as far as academic [01:43:10] writing, um, was just meeting new people.
[01:43:12] So I love people getting in touch and being in contact, [01:43:15] and I really appreciate the time with you and your awesome podcasts that you've grown, which is so [01:43:20] amazing. So, um, thank you. I really appreciate it.
[01:43:22] Stephanie Winn: And, uh, are you seeing [01:43:25] patients?
[01:43:25] Will Dobud: I have a small, I keep a small practice here in Adelaide. Um, I'm still trying to [01:43:30] find the COVID ID.
[01:43:32] Really crushed our [01:43:35] nonprofit. Um, and I was lucky that I simultaneously got offered full-time work at a university. [01:43:40] So I'm hoping that we can bring, um, that full nonprofit back. But I [01:43:45] always con I have consultation and do tons of different things. I keep my feet in [01:43:50] every door so I don't become a stale, crusty academic who hasn't seen a client in 20 [01:43:55] years.
[01:43:55] So, uh, which is far more common than we think, which is [01:44:00] terrifying. But, um, no. Yeah. So keep a small practice and, uh, I just wanna get back to [01:44:05] expedition work 'cause that is my. That's me at my best, so. Oh,
[01:44:09] Stephanie Winn: [01:44:10] that sounds so fun. Wish I was on a kayak in Australia right now.
[01:44:14] Will Dobud: Yes, [01:44:15] that's right. Well, we're in the, oddly enough, I don't know when this will come out, but we've just had a like [01:44:20] two and a half weeks of over a hundred degrees, so there's been nothing good about going outside.[01:44:25]
[01:44:26] Brutal. Yeah.
[01:44:28] Stephanie Winn: Alright, well thanks so much. It's been a [01:44:30] pleasure.
[01:44:31] Will Dobud: Thank you.
[01:44:32] Stephanie Winn: Thank you for listening to you [01:44:35] Must Be some kind of Therapist. If you enjoyed this episode. Kindly take a [01:44:40] moment to rate, review, share, or comment on it using your platform of choice. [01:44:45] And of course, please remember, podcasts are not therapy and I'm not your [01:44:50] therapist.
[01:44:51] Special thanks to Joey Rero for this awesome theme [01:44:55] song, half Awake and to Pods by Nick for production. For help [01:45:00] navigating the impact of the gender craze on your family, be sure to check out my program [01:45:05] for parents, ROGD, repair. [01:45:10] Any resource you heard mentioned on this show, plus how to get in touch with me, can all be found in [01:45:15] the notes and links below.
[01:45:17] Rain or shine. I hope you will step [01:45:20] outside to breathe the air today in the words of Max Airman. [01:45:25] With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful [01:45:30] [01:45:35] [01:45:40] [01:45:45] [01:45:50] [01:45:55] [01:46:00] [01:46:05] world.