Talkin' Bout [Infosec] News

This week, the team examines AI agents targeting RubyGems, Anthropic’s warnings about dangerous AI misuse, human review of ChatGPT conversations, predictive policing, and LG smart-TV privacy. They also cover passkey-themed phishing, ScreenConnect abuse, Microsoft Defender patch bypasses, and upcoming cybersecurity workshops, webcasts, and Wild West Hackin’ Fest training.

Join us LIVE on Mondays, 4:30pm EST.
A weekly Podcast with BHIS and Friends. We discuss notable Infosec, and infosec-adjacent news stories gathered by our community news team.
https://www.youtube.com/@BlackHillsInformationSecurity

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Chapters
  • (00:00) - PreShow Banter™ — A Protected Class
  • (05:20) - World Leaders Reject Calls to Slow Down AI Development - 2026-09-14
  • (07:58) - OpenAI Agent Swarm Targets RubyGems
  • (16:12) - Anthropic Warns About Claude Misuse and Calls for Slower AI Development
  • (31:38) - OpenAI’s Project Lily and Human Review of ChatGPT Conversations
  • (38:54) - “Minority Report” Predictive Policing Using Financial Data
  • (42:11) - LG Smart TVs Accused of Spying on Viewers
  • (46:49) - Passkey-Themed Phishing Campaigns
  • (47:20) - ConnectWise Patches ScreenConnect After Worm-Like Abuse
  • (47:47) - Microsoft Defender “Shield Break” Patch Bypassed
  • (54:19) - News Wrap-Up and Community Discussion
  • (01:00:04) - Kip Boyle’s Book, Fire Doesn’t Innovate
  • (01:00:27) - “Hunting Shadow AI” Workshop — September 25
  • (01:01:05) - “Playbooks for Owning AI Risk” Live Training
  • (01:03:01) - Wild West Hackin’ Fest and Karaoke
  • (01:03:51) - Webcast: Attacking MCP and N8N Servers
  • (01:04:10) - Webcast: Safely Using Offensive AI in Security Assessments
  • (01:05:17) - Wild West Hackin’ Fest Satellite and SOC Classes

Links
OpenAI Agent Swarm Targets RubyGems
Anthropic Warns About Claude Misuse and Calls for Slower AI Development
OpenAI’s Project Lily and Human Review of ChatGPT Conversations
“Minority Report” Predictive Policing Using Financial Data
LG Smart TVs Accused of Spying on Viewers
Passkey-Themed Phishing Campaigns
ConnectWise Patches ScreenConnect After Worm-Like Abuse
Microsoft Defender “Shield Break” Patch Bypassed

Kip Boyle’s Book, Fire Doesn’t Innovate
“Hunting Shadow AI” Workshop — September 25
“Playbooks for Owning AI Risk” Live Training
Wild West Hackin’ Fest and Karaoke
Webcast: Attacking MCP and N8N Servers
Webcast: Safely Using Offensive AI in Security Assessments
Wild West Hackin’ Fest Satellite Class
...and SOC Classes

Click here to watch this episode on YouTube.




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Creators and Guests

Host
Bronwen Aker
Bronwen Aker is a BHIS Technical Editor who joined full-time in 2022 after years of contract work, bringing decades of web development and technical training experience to her roles in editing pentest reports, enhancing QA/QC processes, and improving public websites, and who enjoys sci-fi/fantasy, Animal Crossing, and dogs outside of work.
Host
Corey Ham
Corey Ham has been with Black Hills Information Security (BHIS) since 2021 delivering red teaming and OSINT services. Currently, Corey leads the ANTISOC team at BHIS, providing subscription-based continuous red teaming to BHIS clients. Outside of his time at BHIS, you can find him out in the woods or up on a mountain somewhere.
Host
Hayden Covington
Hayden Covington joined Black Hills Information Security (BHIS) in the Summer of 2022 as a SOC Analyst. He chose BHIS after hearing many great things over the years and seeing the quality of work, as well as finding people who have the same passion for the field as he does. His favorite part of the job so far has been the community. Previously, Hayden worked in a SOC for a Naval contractor, where he also served as their SOAR project manager and SME, as well as insider threat lead. When he’s not working, Hayden can be found doing anything athletic (like triathlons!), as well as enjoying video gaming and Formula 1.
Host
John Strand
John Strand has both consulted and taught hundreds of organizations in the areas of security, regulatory compliance, and penetration testing. He is a coveted speaker and much loved SANS teacher. John is a contributor to the industry-shaping Penetration Testing Execution Standard and 20 Critical Controls frameworks.
Host
Ralph May
Ralph is a U.S. Army veteran and former DoD contractor who supported the United States Special Operations Command (USSOCOM) with information security challenges and threat actor simulations. Over the past decade, he has provided offensive security services at Optiv Security and Black Hills Information Security (BHIS) across various industries. His expertise spans network, physical, and wireless penetration testing, social engineering, and advanced adversarial emulation through red and purple team assessments. Ralph has developed several tools, including Bitor (set to release in January 2025) and Warhorse, which enhance efficiency in penetration testing infrastructure and operations. He has spoken at numerous conferences, including DEF CON, Black Hat, Hack Miami, B-Sides Tampa, and Hack Space Con.
C"
Guest
Charles "bsdbandit"
Guest
Kip Boyle
Kip Boyle is a husband, dad, entrepreneur, and experienced cyber risk manager. He founded Cyber Risk Opportunities LLC in 2015 after 7 years as the CISO of PEMCO Insurance in Seattle. As a captain on active duty in the US Air Force, he served in the Combat Archer and F-22 Stealth Fighter programs, where he was the director of enterprise network security. These days, he serves as virtual chief information security officer for many customers, including a professional sports team and fast-growing FinTech and AdTech companies. Over the years, Kip has built teams by interviewing hundreds of cybersecurity professionals. And now, he’s sharing his insider’s perspective with you!
Producer
Ryan Poirier
Ryan Poirier began his time at Black Hills Information Security (BHIS) as the Video Producer and Editor in August 2020. Ryan polishes and perfects every webcast, podcast, and workshop on the BHIS, ACM, and WWHF YouTube Channels. Prior to Ryan’s time at BHIS, he worked for one of the largest public schools in the United States, conducting their video production and live broadcasting. He joined the BHIS team because he felt like it would be a great group of people to work with, and he couldn’t pass up the perfect next step in his career. Outside of his time with BHIS, Ryan does freelance photography, attends Cars & Coffee events, and expands his knowledge of audio and videos.

What is Talkin' Bout [Infosec] News?

A weekly Podcast with BHIS and Friends. We discuss notable Infosec, and infosec-adjacent news stories gathered by our community news team.
Join us live on YouTube, Monday's at 4:30PM ET

John Strand:

Wait. Being young isn't protected either?

Corey Ham:

No. No. No. Being old is protected. Being young is not protected.

John Strand:

That's what I was gonna say. It's very weird.

Bronwen Aker:

So I can just the whippersnappers all I want.

Corey Ham:

That's correct.

Kip Boyle:

And we're not allowed

Corey Ham:

to But if they get you back, you can feel

BSD Bandit:

Talk about a double edged sword. Senior abuse.

Corey Ham:

I'm just gonna look really

Hayden Covington:

sad anytime y'all make fun of me for being young, man. And then I'll get the masses on my side. Everybody in Discord, help stand up for me. I'm being bullied.

Corey Ham:

I will say that mustache, there was an AI generated photo of you with a mustache that was actually bullying.

John Strand:

I'll I'll stand up for you. Us young people, we've gotta stick together, Hayden.

Corey Ham:

Yeah, John. Yeah,

John Strand:

John. Because if we don't do that, like, ain't they they ain't no one around here that's gonna understand what a skivvity toilet is. My god.

Kip Boyle:

John, you've got so much risk. I can't believe it.

Corey Ham:

I know. But now all but okay. But all of that is old people stuff now. Those kids are in college, I'm pretty sure.

John Strand:

Yeah. Hey. Welcome, young ones.

Corey Ham:

I do I do still need

Hayden Covington:

to message Brian about that that AI generated image of me earlier. He dropped that to the whole company.

Corey Ham:

Can't be admit it was pretty funny.

Hayden Covington:

Oh, it was funny, especially when I'm not on the call and I

Corey Ham:

start getting DMs of a

Hayden Covington:

picture of me in a mustache. So I was talking to a customer and I'm trying not to get distracted by all these things flying up next to him. Is it

Kip Boyle:

a really cool handlebar with Did the

John Strand:

bait start working for us?

Corey Ham:

No. It was kind of a Ted Lasso. Yeah.

BSD Bandit:

Was kind

Corey Ham:

of a Ted Lasso. New season's out. You know, he had to grow in.

John Strand:

I had to start watching the new season. I don't know if it's any good or not.

Corey Ham:

It's good. Mean, it's the same. It's that, like, extremely saccharine, like, people don't really talk like this, but it's still wholesome. It's like a piece of candy, you know. I don't know.

Speaker 7:

Oh, candy. Not

Kip Boyle:

a sour

John Strand:

love patch class. That castle because it's stupid, and I can walk away from it, like, for drinking.

Corey Ham:

Yeah. It's that. It's like a piece of candy at the end of the night, and you don't feel have, like, weird emotions about it. No bad dreams. John,

Bronwen Aker:

I I have not liked a serial comedy since M*A*S*H. So that

John Strand:

But what about Cheers, though? Or is that

Speaker 7:

Oh, Cheers. Cheers was great.

John Strand:

Cheers was great. Yes. Yeah. Bash was top notch. I used to watch that all the time when I was a kid.

John Strand:

And I I don't think I

Bronwen Aker:

got those. The problem with most sitcoms is I know too many people exactly like the stereotypes they're portraying. I just can't go there.

John Strand:

Yeah. My daughter was all excited. She loved the office, and all of the all of her friends were like, the show is great. I'm like, I don't find that crap funny. And they're like, why?

John Strand:

Like, that that's what working in an office is like. And I'm here to tell you, it is not fun when you're working there. And I did have a couple of her friends that I talked to recently, and they're like, the other day, I was at the office, and I got to thinking about that quote where you're like, this show sucks. And they were working in office, they're like, you're right. It's not funny.

John Strand:

When you actually have a boss like Michael Scott, it's not pleasant.

Speaker 7:

Like, it's very memories.

Corey Ham:

Yeah. It brings back too

Bronwen Aker:

too many memories.

John Strand:

Too soon. Too soon.

Corey Ham:

PTSD.

John Strand:

Oh, man. No. Mash was great. Mash was so good.

BSD Bandit:

That's when I know the time from John.

Corey Ham:

That was a very that was a very season one centric view of The Office. You you gotta do two through eight only. Skip skip season one.

Hayden Covington:

That's really masochistic, honestly, to watch that much of The Office, I think.

John Strand:

Yeah. And people are like, oh, you gotta watch Parks and Rec because that's great too. And I'm like, I make it past season one.

BSD Bandit:

It's funny. How does

Hayden Covington:

it hurt as bad as The Office, at least? Michael makes me visibly recoil.

Corey Ham:

There are some episodes that are kind of instant skips. Scott's tots, that one's hard to get through.

Speaker 7:

Look how useful we are.

Corey Ham:

John, I hope someday you have to Scott's tots us. I don't know what it's gonna be about. Scott's you should do for April fools, you should Scott's tots us, but about AI. Be like, guys, we're gonna take away AI. No more AI.

Corey Ham:

We we've I've decided as a company. Oh, it's just doing everything. Manually again. We're doing it with no listen. We're gonna be printing things.

Corey Ham:

I want them marked up and sent back to my desk in a fax machine.

John Strand:

He's the paper.

Kip Boyle:

Post it. Office mail. We need inter office mail back.

BSD Bandit:

Yes. The with the vacuum tubes.

John Strand:

Yes. And the bourbon in the office.

Hayden Covington:

Now you're talking Bring

Corey Ham:

back public intoxication. I've watched Mad Men. Oh. Don't drink with me. Good guy.

Corey Ham:

Right? One

John Strand:

of the first companies I was part owner of, and I'm not going to say the name of this company.

Corey Ham:

Uh-huh.

John Strand:

I'm remote. They all had an office together, and everybody was competing on who could have the best bar in their office. And they were showing me they're like, John, look at all of this. I've got this whiskey. I've got this bourbon.

John Strand:

I've got this tequila. And I'm like, I'm in danger. Like, I I am part owner of a train wreck inbound. Like, it was so bad. But

Corey Ham:

Alright. We should probably roll the finger. I just checked just looked at the clock. Roll the finger. Let's go. Let's all I hope everyone has a whiskey.

BSD Bandit:

Water. Water counts. Right?

John Strand:

Yeah.

Corey Ham:

Hello, and welcome to Black Hills Information Security's Talkin' About News. It's 09/14/2026. You know, guys, I feel like we should probably pause this podcast. You know, just slow down. I'm I'm a little worried things are going too fast.

Corey Ham:

I was wondering how

Hayden Covington:

long that would take.

Corey Ham:

What what do we think? Should we just should we just not let's just this is a public call to all podcasters. Okay? I think there's too many podcasts. We should just slow down.

Corey Ham:

Everyone, stay tuned to this podcast, though, because we're not gonna slow down. But everyone else should slow down.

Hayden Covington:

That's the plan is we we tell everybody to slow down, and then we just release more episodes than before.

John Strand:

Yeah. I I think

Corey Ham:

I think

John Strand:

we all just gotta come to an armistice. Yeah. Right? We're all gonna agree to more regulation in the podcast industry. I think that's what we're saying.

John Strand:

Oh, guardrails. Guardrails, if you will. Yes.

Corey Ham:

And Our podcast did break containment last week. I won't say how or why or where, but it did happen.

John Strand:

It might have been Ruby. This podcast may have spilled over and possibly taken over some Ruby gems.

Corey Ham:

Man. We I

John Strand:

get as the people doing the podcast, we don't take responsibility for what our podcast did.

Speaker 7:

But it did

Bronwen Aker:

some It did it all on its own.

Corey Ham:

Yeah. We're not legally responsible. It's emergent. It's fine. Our podcast is sentenced.

BSD Bandit:

Look at that. Ruby gems mixed in with some pythonic pearls. Oh, god. Gross.

Corey Ham:

Yeah. Alright. So I guess, you know, we'll skip introductions. You guys know who we are. No one on the show is new.

Corey Ham:

We've already had Kip before. You can go back and watch He'll an episode be able to plug his stuff later. Everyone else is a regular. We got Bronwen, Hayden, Kip, bsd, John, and Ralph. Hi.

Corey Ham:

So, obviously, we've already kinda spilled the beans a little bit on a couple articles. The show is gonna be at least half AI. So I apologize if you're not AI, just skip to halfway through.

BSD Bandit:

Could be AI, and then just get your agent on it.

Corey Ham:

There you go. Two things two things happened. So there there's basically two big threads that are kind of worth discussing. And they're all stuff that we've talked about before on the show, and nothing is new. And we're gonna talk about it anyway because that's what the news is.

Corey Ham:

It's just a cycle. So basically, last week, this company posted about Ruby Ruby Gems. I'm not a big Ruby guy. You know, I prefer my Ruby on rails. Just kidding.

Corey Ham:

I hate that. Basically, Ruby Gems was attacked by OpenAI in addition to the hugging face attacks, in addition to the other AI containment breaches. So another one, basically, DJ Khaled is here. And in addition to that, Dario Amode or whatever his name is, the CEO of Anthropic, he he went on he went to Starbucks and he typed out an angry blog about why we need to slow down AI development because it's scary. And yeah.

Corey Ham:

I mean, basically, the writing on the wall here is this is gonna keep happening probably, and maybe it's a risk. Maybe not. I mean, I will say, like, the funniest part of this is that in this RubyGems instance, they really don't know why. Or, like, they genuinely and if you've used AI, this is relatable to you. They have no idea why it decided to break into this website and use it to conduct attacks, which if you're curious what the attacks were, they were supply chain attacks designed to read public data from a UK website.

Corey Ham:

So if you think that makes sense, you're not a real hacker. You're an AI agent. Hey.

John Strand:

I I was also concerned with the phrase, it was an agent swarm that was swarming hundreds of gem packages.

Corey Ham:

It's like bees, John. Oh my goodness. It's just like bees, dude. Just Yeah. Way crazy,

John Strand:

We do AI Wu Tang, but that's

BSD Bandit:

Killer bees. Yes.

John Strand:

Killer bees. AI Wu Tang.

Hayden Covington:

I mean, that's how a lot of these attacks are happening now. I think even the hugging face one is they just they're they're powering through with agents that can spawn agents that can spawn agents. And so they're building these these massive arrays, and now a lot of these harnesses can have, like, session cross communication. So you can have one agent talking to another, and they're sharing tips and ideas. And there was one where they had, like, their own message board, to, like, communicate and everything.

Hayden Covington:

Was nothing

John Strand:

but kill all humans over the long. Okay.

Bronwen Aker:

I I think we've identified the real reason why we need more data centers is because they keep spawning up these swarms to go off and engage in rogue activity.

Corey Ham:

So it sounds really serious. Yeah. So if anyone's, you know, to to basically to lay the playing field here, there's two very dangerous ingredients in these in the mix. Or I guess technically three dangerous ingredients. The first ingredient is agentic chains, like we just discussed.

Corey Ham:

Basically, allowing AI to make more AI to make more AI, you know, in infinity, basically. That leads to what they call misalignment, which means, oops, the AI model did something we didn't intend for it to do. This is very, like, you know, alignment is a whole topic. I was reading earlier about one of the things that Dario says that he recommends they do is they bring in external parties who are supposed to help them with their alignment and make sure that they don't have misalignment and all that stuff. That's like the AI way of solving the problem.

Corey Ham:

But the other two ingredients are time. Right? Like, look at the time frame of this. These attacks started in May and basically ramped up and then continued all the way through June. And like, I guess, no one ever noticed.

Corey Ham:

Obviously, RubyGems noticed because they shut down registration on their website. But essentially and then the third ingredient is lack of containment or lack of appropriate containment. Right? Like, it's OpenAI this time, and we know OpenAI, at least in my book, has probably the worst containment of anyone. They don't use a third party unlike Anthropic.

Corey Ham:

They are just rolling their own, and they don't seem to be too good at, like, IP tables or firewalls or any of that kind of stuff that maybe

Bronwen Aker:

you should have. Security much at all as far as I can tell.

John Strand:

So I So a couple of things. One, this is, like, one of those news stories that's kind of hit the hit the hit the point that we're doing a specialized webcast on it. And we're gonna be doing a webcast myself and Derek on Wednesday where we're gonna be talking about what we're doing at BHIS whenever we're using offensive AI and what we're doing to try to make it less creepy like this. And there's a lot of things that, you know, are just really, really basic. Like, one of the things that we've implemented is the idea of limiting the number of turns, so the different quests, responses, request responses before you terminate the AI and you move on.

John Strand:

I think we limit ours to, like, 50. So, like, there's an actual finite death of the agents that we're using, and I'm probably using harsh language with that. But, but

Corey Ham:

also assimilated by AI for saying that anyway.

John Strand:

Probably. Get in the pot, John. Get in the pot. But there's a whole another thing that I don't know if they thought about this in OpenAI and Anthropic. It's wire cutters.

John Strand:

If you're going to be doing testing, you can totally do testing in an air gap network.

Corey Ham:

And You mean the people who told me what sheets to buy? What's a wire cutter?

BSD Bandit:

Yeah. Wire cutter. I

John Strand:

actually don't have any

BSD Bandit:

with my wallet.

John Strand:

So I I just don't get how this happened the first time and then how it continues to happen, and they're constantly surprised. As I keep saying, I'm surprised that they're surprised by this.

Hayden Covington:

It has to just be either, like, I I don't wanna say incompetence, but just, like, a a desire to not fix the problem yet. I mean, maybe they're getting something valuable out it out of it besides marketing. Right? Because They're

Kip Boyle:

so on the happy path. They're just assuming that everything is gonna work out. They spend no time thinking about what if it doesn't.

Hayden Covington:

Well, anthropic is the opposite boat. As anthropic said, there's,

Corey Ham:

like, a 10% chance pretty much exterminate us.

Bronwen Aker:

No. The first couple of times, I was willing to say, okay. Maybe it's just naivete. But now with the continued repeating of reported attack after reported attack, this, yeah, this is negligence. This is beyond negligence.

Corey Ham:

So so let me splits.

John Strand:

Was just on Bronwen's note, and then we'll move sorry, Corey. One of the things that I was, listening to this weekend while I was biking, because I think Corey and I deal with the stress of work the same way, which is biking ridiculously painfully long distances. And I was listening to a whole bunch of podcasts, and two of them, they were basically like, if you're the CEO of a company and it does this, you should be held legally responsible for what your agents do. And it's like, you put, you know, any of these CEOs of these companies, you put Musk, Dario, or Sam Altman in prison just for a day or two, you're gonna see improvement

BSD Bandit:

in that company in a way that they do. So what I was gonna say

John Strand:

is I gotta do one thing. Kip's gotta be on board with this because that's usually the Siso's role. It's like, usually, sacrificial lamb. It's like

Corey Ham:

Yeah, Kip, you wanna go to jail, right? Kip,

John Strand:

it's you, man. That's like in your job

Kip Boyle:

Well, just know that I've got a master services agreement with John that says that, you know, he's got to cover me for my legal fees. You know, there's gonna be insurance. Otherwise, I'm out of here. I'm walking.

John Strand:

Yeah. It's like, I take responsibility for nothing.

Corey Ham:

So what I was gonna say is, basically, let's make this let's make this a little more real. So this attack, attacking RubyGems, my reaction, I think pretty much anyone else's reaction is, who cares? I don't even know what RubyGems is. It's supply chain used by six people who are running open source, whatever. I don't know.

Corey Ham:

It's not that

BSD Bandit:

big of

John Strand:

a deal. Ruby community

Corey Ham:

is not Whatever. Sorry, Ruby community. You're not that big of a deal. Right? But let's make it a little let's make it a little

BSD Bandit:

To you.

Corey Ham:

But okay. If you're part of this community, send me a fax. I mean, I'm assuming you use only antiquated technology. Basically, the the also put a caption on your website. Sorry.

Corey Ham:

But, the, like, the scarier thing and the reason like, if you're wondering why did Dario, the CEO of Anthropic, make a blog post about why we need to slow down AI development, it's not because he's worried about Ruby gems being taken down. It's because they also posted multiple, blogs, Anthropic did, about how they foiled attempts two attempts that are extremely concerning to me and I'm sure everyone else in this podcast. One is people using it, people using Claude to make biological weapons. Mhmm. Yikes.

Corey Ham:

That's scary. And they foiled multiple plots for this. If you're doing this, first of all, why? Second of all, I'm scared of you. The other one is they foiled or, you know, discovered an attempt by a a government to build, a master program for their citizens.

Corey Ham:

So basically, the those are like volunteer? No. It it wasn't volunteer. It was Bali tier, basically. Some but, essentially, the let's let's follow this analogy of, like, the toothpaste in the tube.

Corey Ham:

Okay? Uh-huh. So I'm anthropic, and I'm holding a tube of toothpaste, and I'm just squirting it everywhere, all over my desk. There's toothpaste going everywhere. Continue.

Corey Ham:

Yeah. So there's toothpaste everywhere, and that's called AI. And that's where we are right now. We have AI slop. We have toothpaste everywhere.

Corey Ham:

But the question is, if I'm this guy, this CEO of Anthropic

John Strand:

Mhmm.

Corey Ham:

What toothpaste is left in the tube? That's what's potentially actually scary.

Kip Boyle:

That toothpaste is spawning more toothpaste, obviously.

Corey Ham:

Yeah. It's like Yeah. So you comparing what is

John Strand:

the

Bronwen Aker:

you comparing AI to Pandora's box?

Corey Ham:

Comparing AI to toothpaste because it's a lot less confusing. But, basically, it what is left in the tube? Like, if bioweapons and mass surveillance programs are coming out now, what is left that he's actually worried about that we can't see?

John Strand:

So there's a couple of different things. One, like, there's a lot to unpack with what you just talked about. Right? Like, I feel like the AI companies are, like, every once in a while, you'd be walking around the mall. You go by Hot Topic, and you see kids wearing shirts that say, in my defense, I was left unsupervised.

John Strand:

That's what I feel like the AI industry is like right now. They're wearing the shirts. They're like, they didn't supervise us.

Corey Ham:

Oops. Condamine failure.

John Strand:

Oops. And I also feel like the whole thing it's it's weird to get the big three players with x AI, Anthropic, and OpenAI all agreeing on x that they need to have some type of regulation, which leads me to believe it wasn't about anything to do with regulation. What they are what they are really worried about, what they are terrified about is that regulation is coming. So the more that they can do this bullshit where they're like, woah. We should be regulating.

John Strand:

We're gonna self regulate. We're gonna take care of this. You can totally trust us. The more that they can kick the can down the road a little bit further to not have government oversight. This is purely performative bullshit to basically make people that are legislators in different countries go, well, look.

John Strand:

They're showing a concerted effort. Look. They tweeted something that proves that they care. Meanwhile, you know, they know nothing's gonna come of it because Trump was quoted this weekend in Scotland, I think. And was asked about this.

John Strand:

And, yeah, and he was basically like, no. Hell no. Not we're not gonna slow down. We're currently winning, and whoever wins wins everything. And I do not have one of those who understand what the hell that means.

John Strand:

And then finally, they asked Xi Jinping. I think it was Xi or it was just it was just somebody high up in China. And, the official China response was, this is standard imperialism. They're trying to restrict the rest of us. We're going to keep going.

John Strand:

So the two main superpowers are just gonna keep going. And this reminds me of I can't remember the dude's name, but he was a scientist in the fifties. There was a scientist that was on a morning show on Sunday, and they were all sitting around and they were talking about atomic bombs. And just casually, this one nuclear bomb scientist said, you know, all this stuff is scary, but the really scary thing is a cobalt bomb. And a cobalt bomb could literally kill every single person on the planet, and it generated this mass hysteria.

John Strand:

And at that particular point was the beginning of The United States and Russia kinda stepping back from their drunken stupor and being like, holy shit. We actually have something that we could develop that would literally kill everybody on the planet, maybe we need to step back from this brinksmanship a little bit. And right now, all the crap that's going on with AI, we aren't there yet. And all of the stuff that you're seeing from the major labs talking about regulation and we need to be going a little bit slower is all bullshit because they're sick and tired of Bernie Sanders and other senators crawling up their butts talking about needing to slow things down. So they can just say, trust us.

John Strand:

We're slowing down. By the way, here's 400 more data centers that we're gonna keep going. So I I know that that's really, like, depressing and kind of sad, but until we get to point,

John Strand:

they they and, like, you know, going back to Corey's joke, which is kinda true because Corey's point is like Ruby gems, who cares? But who's to say the next time this doesn't that this happen, it isn't in the middle of something like critical infrastructure and it takes over every single power grid in the West Of The Mississippi. Right? We're we're this is a warning shot. We're stepping closer and closer to that.

John Strand:

And a lot of the AI subreddits that I'm on and different groups of people that I follow on x and podcast, right now, they say the only hope that we have is that something bad happens. It's bad enough to wake people up, but it's not catastrophic. And that's what they're holding out hope for. Scares the shit out of me.

Corey Ham:

Well, so in this analogy for comparing nuclear weapons to AI, is it actually like, we've been able to like, looking at history since the nineteen fifties, we've been able to ish control nuclear proliferation through a bunch of different methods, including, like, limiting means and supply chains and development and scientific re like, we've roughly been able to prevent nuclear war so far even though, you know, we'll see. Like, is AI applicable in that way?

John Strand:

Like, AI further wait, Corey. Hold on. Hold on. I'm checking the news. Okay.

John Strand:

That statement, still valid.

Corey Ham:

I'll allow him to

Bronwen Aker:

Okay. Okay.

Corey Ham:

But can you basically, like, what is keeping China from having uranium aka Nvidia h one hundreds, is that a real strategy? I don't know if it is. Like, I don't think that's the same thing.

John Strand:

Is it? Think that the I think that the analogy completely disintegrates because creating a nuclear weapon is actually really hard. Yeah. The refinement

Corey Ham:

process AI is not. I mean, it is. It's not.

John Strand:

Well, this is kind of a disappointment of anybody that has a couple $100,000 could actually create terrifyingly powerful weapons grade AI. Maybe not as powerful as OpenAI in Anthropic or a nation state, but powerful enough to do incredible damage. And that's the place. That's the space that we're in right now.

Corey Ham:

Yeah. For hacking. But what about everything else? Is it it like No. Oh.

Corey Ham:

Or is it everything else? What do you There

Bronwen Aker:

there are so many different fields that are now taking advantage of AI. And one of the the classic conundrums of life in general is that a certain amount of something can heal, but too much of the same thing can kill. And the more and more AIs are put in charge of critical things and they are relied upon by humans making critical decisions, the more dicey it gets, especially because it is emergent. We have no idea where it's going, and it isn't reliable. It isn't stable yet.

Corey Ham:

Right. If

Bronwen Aker:

that if this were me, it never should have gotten lab and become this widespread.

John Strand:

But but, Bronwen, kind of kind of riffing on that and kinda continuing with Corey's thought. Right? If you look at just the mathematics field, if you go back two, three years ago, there was lots of examples of AI that couldn't do basic mathematics. Now it's potentially solving Fields Medal level math problems. But, you know, like like, the top ten's most difficult math problems.

John Strand:

Now it's still plagiarizing the shit out of things, and that's really an interesting story in itself. But, I think in the past couple of or actually for a while now, we've been at RSI with recursive self improvement, and now the major models are definitely in the area of recursive self improvement. And I don't know, man. I keep seeing these things where OpenAI is like, we're full AGI. We're agentic, and NVIDIA CEO was like, hey.

John Strand:

Congratulations on that. Like, you got a new baby.

Corey Ham:

We did it.

BSD Bandit:

Yeah. Yeah.

John Strand:

We did it. Congratulations. And

Corey Ham:

It's like elf with the greatest cup of coffee in the world or whatever. Congratulations. You've achieved AGI. Congratulations. We

John Strand:

we've talked about this, but AGI is a goalpost that keeps moving out further and further and further and further. It's been able to pass the Turing test for quite a while.

Corey Ham:

We just we just forgot

Ralph May:

about it, though. We just keep coming up. We're the humans are humans are specifically, like, inept at finding a better test. They're like, no. There we have we have a better one.

Corey Ham:

We have a better test.

Ralph May:

We have to put another test, another goalpost because it can't have made it to the thing. I mean, you know, I mean

Hayden Covington:

It it feels like they're just trying to to prop up sentience Yeah. As as AGI at

BSD Bandit:

that point.

Corey Ham:

It feels

Hayden Covington:

like they've lost the plot of that, and they're looking for a model that that it had is is sentient in and of itself is what they're looking for.

John Strand:

Honest, Hayden, I I'm gonna be blunt with you. I think 90% of my day, I'm not sentient.

Hayden Covington:

So so AI's there then. Right? We're over

Ralph May:

there. Oh. I I think it's I think it's funny. Humans, as flawed as we are, looking for something that isn't flawed. Right?

Ralph May:

Like, we want something so perfect.

John Strand:

Oh, great. That, like, you

BSD Bandit:

know, it's it it it just blows my mind. It it and and then we only call something that is perfect human even though that's not what we are.

Corey Ham:

I'd like to Sorry.

Bronwen Aker:

I'm just all of this discussion reminded me of a short story by Roger Zelazny, one of my favorite classic science fiction authors.

John Strand:

Fantastic. Princess and Amber. Fantastic. Very good, Bronwen.

Bronwen Aker:

Oh, yes. Are you familiar with the story For a Breath I Teary?

John Strand:

I know I've read it because a while when I was in high school, I basically read everything I could get from Zelazny. So go ahead. Yeah.

Bronwen Aker:

CliffsNotes version, post apocalyptic, no humans left, lots of of aware robots and cyber not cybernetic, not cyber, entities are now running the planet. And, one of them gets a glitch, and it happened during a solar flare. And and he has acquired a hobby, and his hobby is humanity. And the the story is a a beautiful examination of what it is to be alive, what it is to be human, in fact. And the there's one phrase in particular that I think qualifies it is that machines know measurement, but they don't know hot or cold.

Bronwen Aker:

They don't they don't there's an ephemeral quality to being alive. And as much as I respect the technology that modern neural networks have brought to our ever changing world, I do not think it has crossed that boundary over true life. And just pouring more power into something doesn't necessarily make it alive because it's it's in many ways, it's like the conflict between science and religion. Science is about what can be observed. It's about what can be repeated.

Bronwen Aker:

But when it comes to the human experience and and for some people, it's faith, there are things that cannot be quantified. There are things that cannot be put into a box and repeated because that's just not part of how the universe works. So anyway

Ralph May:

But may maybe.

Bronwen Aker:

Machines know measurement. They can quantify. They can calculate. They can do all sorts of other computation. But but that does not mean that they have understanding of what is We don't need

BSD Bandit:

that for them to hurt us, and I think that's what that people are saying.

Corey Ham:

Right. 100% agreement.

BSD Bandit:

Yeah. Not 100% agreement.

Corey Ham:

It's like beating you and it's like, hey, but I I'm warm, you're not. Right.

Hayden Covington:

But but that but that is a good point. Right? Like, how do you define sentience? Right?

Kip Boyle:

This is all interesting, but but really the bottom line is whoever set whoever set this thing free is accountable for it, whatever it does.

BSD Bandit:

I'm glad you said that. So it's going to come to

BSD Bandit:

a point, and like you said, you talk about accountability. And I'm looking at it from a standpoint, and I know this might be an insane analogy. I look at it from

BSD Bandit:

a standpoint with AI these days,

BSD Bandit:

and as far as, like, accountability that's coming down the pipe. It's kind of like when people have, like, a dog owner, like, pretty much a dog owner. Right? And, you know, and anything that the dog does, it's the owner's responsible for its behavior. I look at AI in the same rounds.

BSD Bandit:

Yeah. You're right. So I look at AI. I'm looking at AI in kind of the same manner. Like, because again, at the end of the day, there's no patch for people.

BSD Bandit:

There's always going to be some type of human element within most language modules, when it comes to training, and anything that's being built from the ground up using AI as a tool. Even attorneys who are filing

Corey Ham:

You use our crap briefs

Kip Boyle:

Yes. With fictitious cases. And made up testimony. They're being held accountable right now in courts by and absolutely should be. And I guess what I'm saying is that if we can do that with attorneys, we can certainly do it with non attorneys.

BSD Bandit:

Oh, I def I definitely agree with that. And I think that's coming down the pipe. It's just taking a little bit longer. Mhmm.

Corey Ham:

I know. Yeah. So I'm gonna take

John Strand:

a contrarian view and then we gotta Corey's gonna keep us back on.

Corey Ham:

Yeah. No. You give your take, and I'll I'll queue up the next story because it ties right into this.

John Strand:

Yeah. So here here's here's my take. Like, you know, I was joking with bsd. It's like if your dog bites somebody, you're held responsible unless you're a billionaire. I do believe that we're gonna continue to see these things breaking containment, and I think and I strongly believe that we're going to continue to see these, AI companies basically getting away with it being oopsies.

John Strand:

I because there's so much money and there's so much legislative capture that has gone into this that there has to be a mechanism to hold them accountable. But the people that would hold them accountable are the people that have been captured financially. And I I just don't think I just don't think that the system as it stands, once again, unless something really bad happened, just a hair away from catastrophic is going to actually lead to accountability, especially for, like, the CEOs and CSOs and CTOs of these companies. And Corey's gotta get us back on track too.

Corey Ham:

So So, yeah, let me let me get us back on track a little bit, but then also take us straight off the rails again because, of course, I will. So don't worry. Don't worry, guys. It's fine. It it it there was a four zero four media, media article where they have this thing at OpenAI called Project Lily.

Corey Ham:

And it's fine because they have humans reading the chat g b p prompts and then, you know, potentially helping to improve the models. Right? So it's fine. Don't worry if if, you know, you're you're talking to chat g b t and something weird happens. Don't worry.

Corey Ham:

A a person there's a someone will be on the case. Not really, but basically, this is an article talking about a program that was leaked to four zero four media. That's an internal program at at OpenAI. This is the least surprising article I've seen all year. Like, of course, they're doing this.

Corey Ham:

Yeah. It's like, it's cool to see it documented and how it works. And it is very clear in the settings that it's happening. It literally says, allow your content to be used to train our models. Right?

Corey Ham:

Like, that is the default setting. If you don't opt out of that, you are subjecting your chats to people to read. But I think, you know, we don't need to dig too deep into the article, but I want to carrying the theme that we were just discussing, which is essentially like Pandora's box has been opened or has it? And can we put it back? How can we control it?

Corey Ham:

I wanna take a pessimistic take and an optimistic take. The optimistic take is that alignment is basically what we're talking about here. And this is something that the firms, the AI firms are all focused on right now, which is these events where like AI accidentally hacks a company that it wasn't intended to hack or AI does something it wasn't supposed to do. They categorize them as misalignments. Meaning, the biggest one that's happening right now is reward hacking essentially.

Corey Ham:

They're saying go solve this benchmark. The AI says, oh, I can solve the benchmark if I cheat. And so the big shift that they're trying to make at the lab, like the model level is to make it so the models don't cheat. Right? Good luck with that.

Corey Ham:

You know, maybe it's human nature to cheat, but also, like, we have kind of done it in our society where we've made it like, you know, we have consequences for cheating and things like, you know, maybe they can do this. I don't know. But the positive take, the the pest the optimistic take is basically to say, every time this happens, the technology improves. We take a thing like alignment that we weren't previously that aware of and reward hacking. And then we build that into our future controls over the models.

Corey Ham:

That's part of what Dario is calling for is bringing in third parties to validate model alignment. Basically, maybe it is possible to fix this problem with alignment, having things like human reviews and having them like, vote, did AI behave the way that you expected it to? Maybe we can tune this out. That's the positive take. And does anyone have comments on that before I give the negative take?

John Strand:

Let's go right to the negative.

Corey Ham:

Alright. Straight to the negative take, which is basically that, you know, essentially to carry Bronwen's theme forward, AI is based on human input. But it's based on human input, like, if you ever seen the game where someone draws on your back and then you draw what's being drawn. It's like that, but a thousand times over to the point that AI genuinely has no clue what a human would want. And and if we're being honest, we don't really know what we want either.

Corey Ham:

And so there's that level of uncertainty. So no matter how you align the model, there's always gonna be some misalignment to one person or to one goal or to one sort of set of outcomes that you're intending. And that's this the misalignment is is a feature, not a bug. Misalignment is also innovation. It's also the AI model going outside of the box and doing something that actually solves the science problem or actually, you know, fixes the code or whatever it is.

Corey Ham:

And so you can't tune that out. You have to have it in there because that's also what has led to human innovation too. Right? Like, oops, I accidentally spilled some, you know, vinegar in my milk, and now I have cheese. Oh, cool.

Corey Ham:

I like cheese. Like, I like, it's not you know, like, this mistakes and misalignments are how things get better. And so I don't think you can out.

Hayden Covington:

And alignment is a very interesting concept too because it's just assuming that humans have a universal agreed upon, like, set of rules where I mean, we have a lot of things that most people agree upon. There will always be devi ations from those in those people. Right. But even, like, at a standard level, there is very little that most people could often

John Strand:

Oh, I disagree on. Is

Corey Ham:

so that is so

John Strand:

that is so incredibly rare.

Hayden Covington:

Have you been on Twitter recently, though? No.

John Strand:

No. No.

BSD Bandit:

Like, if

Corey Ham:

you look at humans,

John Strand:

I think that humans actually agree on, like, 99.9% of things. Right? You know? Like, you know, it's if you look at just how how like, we're going back. What is it?

John Strand:

James' habit is the flywheel of society.

Corey Ham:

Uh-huh. There's a

John Strand:

whole bunch of things that is just normally socially acceptable behavior that you don't even think about. Right? It's just absolutely baked in Mhmm. The way that you interact. You know?

John Strand:

You don't go you don't go into, you know, into a supermarket covered in shit. You just don't do that. Right? That's no that's out. So you're really kind of dealing with these fringe value judgments that where you start getting, quote, unquote, misalignment between humans.

John Strand:

But the vast majority of human activity is very, very rote. There's just things that we are not going to do. Like, it's not okay to go punch somebody. If somebody does that, they go to prison. Right?

John Strand:

So Well,

Corey Ham:

hold on, John, because he was kinda being a dick. It's fine.

John Strand:

Oh, he oh, he he deserved it? Oh, well, carry on then. Right? And I think that that gets into the problem, especially whenever you're dealing with obliterated models, is, like, we're literally taking AI and turning it into an effing sociopath. Right?

John Strand:

And one of the things that Derek's gonna be talking about is you can actually watch whenever AI does something if it gets to a refusal, and you can look at, like, the vector path that it took there. You can find the specific points of where it started invoking the equivalent of a conscious or the controls that it has, and you can obliterate just those. The problem that you're running into with a lot of people that are trying to obliterate models is they're not just removing the refusals for a specific path. It's like if you're a penetration tester, you're inherently doing something that is illegal. But we kind of obliterate that for our testers through contracts and saying, no.

John Strand:

This is okay. We have a contract. It's authorized. It's morally acceptable in this specific thing. So you're getting somebody to do something that would be otherwise illegal, but with appropriate circumstances do it.

John Strand:

That is fundamentally different than me hiring somebody that is a complete sociopath. Right? Like, that has no morals whatsoever. So I think that that's one of the problems whenever we're talking about the complexities of alignment. It's not just an issue of taking a model and just removing all of its morals because now you want it to hack something because you're gonna have really scary consequences on the other side of that.

John Strand:

It's how do you actually go through, create alignment, and obliterate it in very specific ways that you want it to behave that are authorized for that specific activity.

Corey Ham:

Alright. I'm gonna make it I'm gonna make the show go even darker for a couple articles. And then and then then then we're gonna pull up we're gonna pull up and we're gonna get a little brighter. Phoebe. First so to get a little darker, four zero four media posted an article that basically, I'm just gonna call it the minority report tool is real and is yeah.

Corey Ham:

Being actively used. I I I you know, it's it's I don't know how far it's being used. I mean, we all knew this was coming. Right? Like, we've seen minority report.

Corey Ham:

Of course, the government would totally buy a contract from a company like Palantir. Good. Right? It's basically the concept here is predictive policing, essentially, which is a sentence that should never have had to been have been said. But here we are.

Corey Ham:

And if you if you don't know what predictive policing is, you can imagine what what it means just based on the sentence.

BSD Bandit:

Not good.

Corey Ham:

Essentially, they're analyzing primarily financial data, I guess, which is, like, if you bought something at a gas station, you're definitely doing crime. I don't know what I don't exactly know what financial So

John Strand:

we did something like this we didn't use AI. But we did something like this a long, long, long, long, long time ago. It was law enforcement agency that I was working with where if you see somebody that goes into a supermarket and they buy a whole bunch of cigarettes and, they buy, like, a ridiculous amount of condoms, odds are there's some sex trafficking going on. With that, that's like a really, really extreme example of looking at someone's purchasing habits, and then that information could be funneled into, like, who are these people that are buying, like, a carton.

Corey Ham:

Maybe they were just having a good night, though. Right? Like, maybe they There

John Strand:

was there was some other shit. There was some other shit. Of evil

Corey Ham:

on that. My point is, just like the AI thing, whatever role you define, there's gonna be an exception. And opening this avenue is just asking for a piece.

Ralph May:

Reading this whole article. And in essence, what they were doing is they're analyzing a lot of data, putting out essentially indicators like targets of possible drug trafficking, whatever it may be. And this isn't evidence of it. It's just like circumstantial, right?

Ralph May:

And then they're relaying that to local law enforcement to then get them to pull people over on a suspicion of, I don't know, like your license plate light is out or, I don't know, making up something. And then with that information escalating that conversation into, oh, I think I smell marijuana, probable cause, moving through the whole process. Right? Because they were on essentially, like, the, you know, the target list of a possible person who commits crimes. Right?

Ralph May:

Essentially profiling that whole entire thing. They don't actually have probable cause to stop them. They're just making all of this up along the way. Right?

Corey Ham:

So this is like

BSD Bandit:

Yeah. I'm catching you for doing a crime. Basically You know? Yeah.

Corey Ham:

Yeah. Basically, this is it's terrifying.

BSD Bandit:

It's terrifying. Yeah. So it's just like anyone who wants to

John Strand:

Is it terrifying can we put this in a nice little, like, democrat republican box so I can choose whether or not I'm

Corey Ham:

angry about this? Yes. Here's the box. Both Democrats and Republicans should be against this for their own personal reasons.

John Strand:

That's not an option. That's not an option. Yeah. We've gotta we've gotta put it into these nice, neat little boxes so I know if I should be outraged or not. Like, we

Corey Ham:

can't find It's an argument issue. Right? Yeah. In your example, this is one of those yeah. This is one of those things that, you know, let's let's go let's go even you know what?

Corey Ham:

Let's go one step even darker. So

BSD Bandit:

Okay.

Corey Ham:

The basically, if you own an LG TV, it's spying on you. Oh, god.

BSD Bandit:

Which They deny it. They deny it.

Corey Ham:

So so they deny it, but we all know it's true. This is the equivalent of AI companies denying that their software causes, you know, people to harm themselves or whatever. The yeah. So this is a big it's like a two hour video from Gamers Nexus. I would recommend watching it, not maybe all at once, but maybe do, like, fifteen minute lunch breaks over the course of a few weeks.

Corey Ham:

I don't know. Hate yourself. But essentially Hate yourself.

BSD Bandit:

Yes.

Corey Ham:

I I watch these Gamers Nexus videos, and I just say, who hurt you? And then I think about LG, and I'm like, they hurt you. Because these guys are going so far out of their way to prove their methodology and to show how transparent they are and show all the evidence and cite all their sources. But basically, long story short, LGTVs have a bunch of different techniques and methods. This is all done under the guise of advertising.

Corey Ham:

Right? So if you work under the guise of advertising, yes, privacy doesn't exist. I can go target an ad that says, want Ralph to see this ad, and I want it to be him, and I want it to be him drinking coffee while he sees the ad, and somehow that's not privacy invasion. That's just advertising.

Hayden Covington:

Oh, good.

Corey Ham:

But there's a bunch of claims, and LG has denied them, but there is a decent amount of proof that they posted in the video Mhmm. For this being, you know, they own the glass. Right? They own the TV, which means they own the data that goes through it and what's

John Strand:

LG responded with anything other than nuh-uh.

Corey Ham:

Well, so they basically said nuh-uh and you agreed to this, which is technically true that people did agree to this. But also the agreement is like, when you go to install an app, it would pop up all of the, you know, terms of service and they would all just be checked and it would just say like, accept all, including the optional extra for ACR, which is the creepy one.

Hayden Covington:

There has to be a point though where, like, all of these terms and conditions and web pop ups and cookie consents and all this garbage on website just it started to get kinda old. Web browsing is is obnoxious, and then now your your TV spies on you because you purchased it. Therefore, you consent to being spied upon. Like, I don't know how

John Strand:

Well, in their defense, those TVs are ridiculously cheap.

BSD Bandit:

So that's how they make the cheaper. Yeah.

Bronwen Aker:

So they're trying to recoup revenues?

Corey Ham:

Is that what

Kip Boyle:

you're saying?

BSD Bandit:

Ad revenue is their target, man.

John Strand:

Yeah. I that's their whole game. I mean, when you're buying, like, you know, what is it, a 62 inch television and it's

Corey Ham:

TV companies realized long ago just like every other company Yeah. That they can only monetize you once every five years or three years or whatever the average person, you know, buys a TV. And so they need a way to you know, they gotta get that shareholder value. And so the way they can do that is through through advertising. There's some pretty creepy stuff.

Corey Ham:

I mean, I guess the other thing that really blows my mind is that there's not any laws or rules that say, like, your TV can't just scan your whole network and break into your neighbor's Wi Fi. Like, how is that not like like, I don't know how that's legal, but it is. It's like Especially if that's

Hayden Covington:

an AI.

Corey Ham:

Yeah. You think that would somehow be wrong or illegal, but it's totally legal, and that's what they do. And so it's fun.

John Strand:

There are no guardrails.

Corey Ham:

There are no guardrails. Alright. Let's now that we've gone to, like, the peak of darkness Wait. We can

John Strand:

I got a question? I wasn't here last week. Talk about OpenAI buying all of the sparks and

BSD Bandit:

the Yeah. We did. Yeah. We did. Okay.

BSD Bandit:

They're they're not buying all the sparks.

Corey Ham:

They've been buying all the

BSD Bandit:

Macs, like, the, like, regular computers that, like, people would buy and they want yeah. Yeah.

Corey Ham:

We just tried everything.

John Strand:

I think we just tried to buy, like, 25 Sparks, and 13 of our orders were canceled. So we're working on that too.

Corey Ham:

It's it's a hardware nightmare out there.

BSD Bandit:

Just trying to buy regular computer stuff right now can be incredibly difficult. I'm not talking just RAM. I'm not talking we've talked about this, and it keeps getting worse. Thank you, AI. We love you.

BSD Bandit:

It's all we wanted was bad computer pricing.

John Strand:

Get back in the pod, Ralph.

Corey Ham:

Yeah. So yeah. I mean, basically, it's hard to get hardware right now. So let's pull up a little bit and get back into some normal security stuff in the last little bit of the show. There's attacks.

Corey Ham:

There's phishing campaigns right now that are using pass keys as their ruse. To be clear, these phishing attacks are not stealing pass keys or doing anything cryptographically unique. They're just using pass keys as the subject matter. Subjects like, you're you you need to switch to a pass key. Click here.

Corey Ham:

Mhmm. This was research posted by the hacker news, and I think it was some email filtering company that posted it. It's an interesting read worth knowing about. ConnectWise has patched ScreenConnect. ScreenConnect is their RMM tool.

Corey Ham:

People were using it. It had worm like capabilities, Moadib sand sandworms, obviously. And that's been patched. They basically this is the world we live in where software vendors have to change their tools to make them less abusable, essentially. And so that happened last week.

Corey Ham:

Quick firing. There's also some interesting research in that shield break thing. Has anyone followed this whole Defender shield break? Mhmm. Yep.

Corey Ham:

Hayden, you wanna cover that?

Hayden Covington:

I mean, I I can. I think we talked about, like, the actual exploit a couple weeks ago. We were writing to text

John Strand:

No. This is a new one.

Corey Ham:

Oh, this is a bypass. Yeah. So it's a it's basically, this is the classic Microsoft solution where they put they post a patch, and then someone finds a bypass for the patch.

Kip Boyle:

Oh, yes. I

Hayden Covington:

do remember hearing

Corey Ham:

about that. Can I talk to classic I'll take point on this one?

BSD Bandit:

Clips. So

John Strand:

so if you look at what is it? S d what is it? MS Nightmare, I think, is is GitHub repository. But the the so the reason why I think that this is interesting is Hayden's absolutely right. It was a couple of weeks ago.

John Strand:

This particular security researcher was had an axe to grind against Microsoft. This is not the ConnectWise story. Can someone get Ryan the right story for that?

Corey Ham:

I already linked it in Discord. Yeah.

John Strand:

Cool. So the the interesting thing about this is this person hates Microsoft, like, a lot. And Microsoft just had the largest patch Tuesday in history last week by by a factor of two. And in that, in that release, Microsoft was very, very clear that they had been using the, using AI to find additional vulnerabilities. So you have Chaotic Eclipse has just been grinding on Microsoft.

John Strand:

I think this is, like, the fourth or fifth exploit that they have dropped. Very angry about this. And the reason why I think that this is so interesting to me is I can guarantee you that Microsoft was using AI to emulate what Chaos Eclipse was doing and that whole s d nightmare or sorry, m s nightmare going through all of that. And yet on Wednesday, he still was able to release an another bypass for Defender. And the the reason why I dig this story is well, two things.

John Strand:

One, these people should be getting along with each other. I they need to put their egos away. I mean, Microsoft has acted awful, and nightmare eclipse has been very frustrated. Let's leave it at that. But aside from that, it still makes my heart glow that even with AI, even with all of the money that Microsoft has had for patching the largest patch Tuesday in history, still on Wednesday, a human being shows up and says, y'all forgot about this.

John Strand:

And the reason why that's interesting to me is that there's a belief in the security community in some people that vulnerabilities are Easter eggs. And what I mean by that is when the attackers and the researchers find all the Easter eggs or all the security vulnerabilities, finally, Microsoft Windows is going to be secure. And it's gonna be completely secure code, and there's gonna be no vulnerabilities in it. And this kind

Corey Ham:

Can we write in Rust?

BSD Bandit:

Oh, no. Yeah.

Bronwen Aker:

Could it

Corey Ham:

all be written in Rust.

BSD Bandit:

Right? And

John Strand:

this makes me you know, I can't remember. What was it, Bronwen? What was that old myth American myth? Was it Jack Henry, the guy that was going up against the steam engine and trying to dig through

BSD Bandit:

the mountains?

John Strand:

I I don't know if it was Jack. I might have read that wrong.

Bronwen Aker:

John Henry.

John Strand:

John Henry. But I feel like this is kind of a John Henry moment where AI finds all these vulnerabilities, and he shows up on Wednesday, and he's like, here's another one for you. So kind of interesting.

Bronwen Aker:

And this is another reason why I don't believe that we have AGI truly because I've I've seen really, really talented, software designers, programmers, hackers who can look at something and it's like magic happens. Mhmm. Something they just see it, and and they they can point it out. And you're not gonna get that from a machine. Machine has to brute force attack this stuff.

Bronwen Aker:

It's not gonna have that gestalt moment where the idea crystallizes for them because that's not how machines work.

Corey Ham:

Well, so on the on the nightmare eclipse, chaotic eclipse, whatever thing, the the person actually did unmask themselves. And it their name is I'm gonna butcher this, and I'm sorry. Abdel Hamid Naseri, which there is they used to work for Microsoft, basically, is the story. And Microsoft ruined their visa situation. So they kind of, you know, whatever, you know, employment blah blah blah.

Corey Ham:

But basically, this person was totally screwed over because they were two months away from getting a visa and, permanent residence in the EU, and that fell apart because they lost their job. And when you lose your employment, you know, things fall apart. So essentially, the person has unmasked themselves, and kind of told the story from their perspective of what had happened. But yeah. I mean, I think I I pasted my personal version of how I think Microsoft works, which is the GIF of Grommet, the dog just putting down tracks in front of the train as it's racing along.

Corey Ham:

That's that's Microsoft. They're not I don't don't think they're gonna ever reach a point where their code is secure. They're just saying AI, Mythos is throwing out patches, and they're just throwing them down as the best they can.

John Strand:

And I'm just gonna I'm just gonna throw out there, like, we have employees in India. We have employees in Africa that are trying to get into Europe, trying to get into places, and even just visiting The United States. And I totally feel for this person. Like, as an owner of a company, It's a nightmare to try to get people into this country. It it's and it I for some reason, I just can't put my finger on what it might be.

John Strand:

But, you know, I I do wanna call out a win. We did have an employee that was able to get a visa in Poland, and they came out of, I can't remember where they came out of, but, they came out of Africa. I wanna say wasn't

Hayden Covington:

Was it Ethiopia?

John Strand:

I think it was Ethiopia. I'm not a 100% certain, but that was a huge, like, win. And just for us to get that person into Poland took us two years of going back and forth with all kinds of different groups in Poland to make that happen. It was it's very hard. So my heart goes out to this person.

John Strand:

And there's a lot of people, even some of our employees from India and then also one of them in South America, just to get them to come to Wild West Hacking Fest to visit for a couple of them. Took, like, a year and a half to get it planned to get them out here. So it's it's hard. Anyway,

Corey Ham:

yeah. I mean, there's there's a bunch more other articles. I would normally give Kip the chance to plug stuff, but I think Kip has left the chat unintentionally or intentionally. Maybe

John Strand:

he Kip?

Corey Ham:

Maybe his AI agent decided that this wasn't the best use of his time, you know, and just nuked his Internet. We don't know. They were real contentious.

John Strand:

Positivity from bsd. I so I gotta ask, Steve. Like, when you're when you're doing your your positive ray of sunshine, would you drive away? A lot of days, dude, I've needed it. I I don't know, man.

John Strand:

Is it getting harder for you or, like, when you're looking at this, like or do you feel like it's more like, you know, you may feel like dog shit, but you feel like you have to be out there, bringing the sunshine for people because there's so many people and that are just whether it's not it's a job hunt, whether or not it's Visa, whether it's fear of AI taking their jobs. Like, it's a really scary time right now.

BSD Bandit:

It really is, but we gotta I get to the point where, like, I'll get up, and it's a new day, and I

BSD Bandit:

call and I'm I'm saying it now.

BSD Bandit:

Right? New day, new energy, new everything. Right? I can't change what happened yesterday. I don't know what's gonna happen tomorrow, but I've been I could definitely control what happens today.

BSD Bandit:

Right? I always just keep that mindset, like, no matter how crazy it gets today, I get a chance to experience today where a lot of people didn't get the chance to experience it. You see what I'm getting at? Oh, yeah. And I and I and I go from a standpoint and and that's what keeps me going.

BSD Bandit:

That's that's the drive that keeps me going, and I'll never stop. That's for sure.

Corey Ham:

Hell yeah. And

BSD Bandit:

hopefully that helps someone else. Like, what what whatever you're going through right now, I'll put it out there right now. Whatever you may be going through right now, whether it's financially, family, whatever it may be, just know that you got a chance. If you open your eyes this morning, you got a chance. If you're able to move around, you got a chance.

BSD Bandit:

A chance at greatness, a chance at whatever it is that you're trying to accomplish. But I challenge everybody to just take one thing at a time, one day at a time, because AI, yeah, it's scary. All of this stuff is scary. Life is scary. But we gotta look at it from a standpoint like, hey, each day that we get to live it, we got another chance.

BSD Bandit:

So I challenge everybody just to get out there, go be great, and go

Corey Ham:

do it. Yeah. Like we've said this a few times on the show, but Mhmm. You are what you eat. And if you eat nothing but doom and gloom and AI slop, you're gonna have a rough time.

Corey Ham:

Paste I just paste it. Just pasted an article in the chat that we had in our list. It's basically just one person's brief blog about their experience debrain rotting, essentially, like going out looking at cows in a field. You know, John Strand can relate to that. They're like, just, you know, you can you can drink from the fire hose or you can just not.

Corey Ham:

You can go to a place where, you know, AI doesn't exist in that moment, and you can do, you know, what the human brain probably wants you to do, which is stare at a tree and wonder how birds work and why they're everywhere. But, yeah, I mean, it's really just you are what you eat. If you consume nothing but slop, you're gonna have you know, you're gonna Yeah.

BSD Bandit:

But slam is

Corey Ham:

gonna be too. Yeah. It It's easy to get caught up

Hayden Covington:

in the arms race. Right? Because everybody has all these tokens. You need to maximize your subscription because you paid a $100 for it. So you better use every set that they give you, and it's so easy to start doing things on weekends and you, you know, you call them personal projects, but they usually really aren't.

Hayden Covington:

It's a very easy hole to fall into that people just need to step away from even the fun screen sometimes. Like, I have the work screen and I have the fun screen. Sometimes I need the Hayden, are

Corey Ham:

are you an LG, dude? How are you watching me?

BSD Bandit:

Are you

Corey Ham:

are you in my TV? Yes.

John Strand:

I think, Hayden, your point is Bo Burnham, after he did that that, what is it, series, was it inside or outside during COVID? I think it was inside for Netflix. He had an interview, and they were like, they're coming for every moment. Like, they're coming for absolutely every moment. They want you in a screen.

John Strand:

They want you hooked in. They want you in in they want you angry because that's then they can control you. Right? And, you know, I I think it gets back to we were joking at the beginning of the show. You know, Corey and I both bike long distances.

John Strand:

I don't bike as far as Corey does. But, you know, you gotta you gotta kind of do those experiences that are yours and truly yours. What are the things that you do that have nothing to do with with any of the major tech companies that are involved with it? And and it's hard. I I think a lot of people are like, well, I game to relax.

John Strand:

I'm like, okay. That's true. Sometimes that's that's true. But you probably need something else. You know?

John Strand:

Going outside, need a hobby, get into painting, music production with real musical instruments. Do something that you suck at, love it, and continue sucking at it. Right? I just I just I just think that that's so critical for for all of us and for me personally, to have that type of thing. And I love it whenever employees call me up, and they're like, that's it.

John Strand:

I'm effing done. I'm done for the day. I'm I'm gonna go out. I'm gonna go on a hike. I'm gonna go do something else.

John Strand:

I'm gonna go play with the kids. And, I think we need that more than ever than than we've had in the past.

Corey Ham:

Yeah. Find the thing that you won't pick up your phone during. Yes. Find whatever that is. Whatever the thing is that you wouldn't answer or look at your phone during that thing and do more of that.

Corey Ham:

We should plug Kip's stuff even though he's not here. Ryan, do you can you pull that up? I definitely know everything he was gonna say. I I I definitely am qualified to do this.

John Strand:

A couple of weeks ago, I got a chance to read books, Kip's book, fire doesn't innovate. I like looking at if you're looking at, like, you know, management from somebody who's been doing it in this industry from a long time, not even just management. It's almost like a weird philosophical treaty on the things. Be sure to check out books Kip's book, fire doesn't innovate.

Corey Ham:

He also has an upcoming Okay. Workshop, which is on September 25. I think that's next Friday. You can enroll now. This is about Shadow AI, hunting Shadow AI, which I mean, if you're if you don't know what Shadow AI is and you're at the executive level or any level, you're in trouble.

Corey Ham:

Because it's basically your your employees copy and pasting things into AI, which everyone's doing. And, what could go wrong?

John Strand:

I know, Bronwen. I'm watching.

Corey Ham:

Hayden's watching too out of my LG. But yeah. So go ahead and register for that. And then he also has some upcoming live training, super exciting, in October. This is about playbooks, owning AI risk.

Corey Ham:

AI risk is huge right now, especially at that executive level. I think Kip is like a VC. So right? He's a CISO for a bunch of different companies. And so he has a great perspective into exactly how, you know, AI risk works, how people are handling it.

Corey Ham:

Like he said, he highly recommends having John Strand sign off on your insurance plan and make sure that, you know, if AI causes you to do something illegal, that it was definitely John Strand's fault. I don't know if that's a valid strategy. That's what we hired Kip for. Yes.

BSD Bandit:

It sounds like he booked the trend right back to you.

Corey Ham:

Yeah. No.

BSD Bandit:

I gotta go pass it back

Corey Ham:

to you. Just two lawyers. It's just two lawyers objecting back to real lawyers.

BSD Bandit:

They're just AI agents. Just No.

Bronwen Aker:

It's it's funny. Back in the day, all the the big bands would put weird clauses in their contracts, like, have to remove all of the brown m and m's. There was a reason for that. That was the only way they could make sure that the

Corey Ham:

venues actually read the contracts. Oh, we've moved past that. No one reads anything. It's fine. Anybody know?

John Strand:

Where he talks about that is one of the best interviews ever. And he's like, no stage had been what we were doing with Van Halen, and if they got it wrong, people would die. And that's why he would lose his freaking mind, and then they would go through and check everything else on the rider. So go if you can read it or if you can get or read an interview with David Lee Roth where he's, like, present and not like, hey. I'm David Lee Roth.

John Strand:

Like, they're some of the best reads ever.

Corey Ham:

But I Anyone else have anything to plug? Yeah. What do you got?

BSD Bandit:

No. I just I just definitely also wanna say too, like, get around your friends. We we left that out. Get around

BSD Bandit:

your friends. Call your friends up. Go go to karaoke. Have a card, man.

Bronwen Aker:

Face to face.

Corey Ham:

Dude, you need come

John Strand:

to Wild West Hackin' Fest and do karaoke

Corey Ham:

in Denver. It's gonna take to get you down where

BSD Bandit:

I'm coming to Denver. I'm coming to Denver indefinitely. You are? Can I

Corey Ham:

get you to Desert?

BSD Bandit:

Yes. Okay. Definitely coming Denver.

John Strand:

But I'll I want you to come to Deadwood. See if you can let me hit me up with an email, and let me know if you can come to Deadwood. If it's we can help get you out here, I I'd love to have you here in Deadwood, dude.

BSD Bandit:

Okay. I'll I'll I'll I'll get with you.

John Strand:

I'll get with you afterwards. Takes. I'll get you here. Okay?

Corey Ham:

Alright. We'll get it. We need the ray of sunshine.

BSD Bandit:

Yep. Hey. Let let's do it. We had we had a and for those of who don't know, we had a blast. The last time we did karaoke, we were all together.

BSD Bandit:

That was, like, so much fun.

Corey Ham:

So awesome. It is it is one of the best parts of the con. Do you does anyone else have anything to plug or any upcoming I got anything?

John Strand:

I've got two webcasts this week. Be sure to check them out. One is we're talking about abusing and attacking, MCP servers and other servers like n eight n, and we are releasing an attack tool for n eight n, servers that are unsecured for persistence. That is on Wednesday or Thursday. I can't remember.

John Strand:

There's one right after the other. And then the other one, Derek Banks and I are gonna be talking about what BHIS is doing to protect our customers and ourselves whenever we're using offensive AI in our assessments. So it's a pretty jam packed week this week with webcasts. So Nice.

Corey Ham:

Nice. Anyone else? Anything to plug before we close?

Hayden Covington:

I'm gonna plug Corey Strava. I'm gonna drop the link here in the chat. Dude, you keep

Corey Ham:

plugging this. I'm not accepting I'm not accepting these. Dude, I run my Strava private for privacy reasons, and I get a bunch of people requesting it. I just leave them because I don't know who these people are. I'm just

Hayden Covington:

gonna start with I don't

Corey Ham:

want people to know.

John Strand:

The only social media that I give a shit about.

Corey Ham:

Oh, same.

Hayden Covington:

Oh my god. Yeah.

Corey Ham:

It just has one feature, which is just giving people thumbs up. That's

John Strand:

I love it. The media comments, like, Corey, that was ridiculously long ride. How are you not dead? Right.

Corey Ham:

And then I comment back and say, I am dead. I won't be at work tomorrow. Sorry. Yeah. Hayden, you got a class coming up.

Corey Ham:

Right? Who's teaching at Ralph, you're teaching at Wild West.

BSD Bandit:

Right? Yeah.

Corey Ham:

Teaching about satellites, and then Hayden's teaching about socks and why you should wear them. Yes. Absolutely. Nice.

John Strand:

The satellite class is gonna be wild because upstairs, we're gonna be doing satellites. And downstairs, I'm gonna be doing Android Karaoke. And karaoke. And we're gonna be off the side.

Corey Ham:

And if you want to move from one class to the other, you have to climb the rock wall in John's barn to get to the other class. Cannot just walk up the stairs. It's a rock.

BSD Bandit:

So fun fun story about the satellite class. So I don't know if if most people know this, but that's actually what I did in the military. I was at twenty five Sierra, so I just did SATCOM. And then I actually did the I worked with SOCOM for almost eight years on their SATCOM program for all of what is it? The special operation forces with many VSATs and all kinds of other fun stuff.

BSD Bandit:

So I've got a ton of satcom direct experience, especially some of the newer stuff. So

Corey Ham:

And if you're wondering if satellites have changed since Ralph left the military, the answer is probably not, because they had cost a lot of money to launch into space.

BSD Bandit:

Well, the actually, the one big change, though, obviously, is the whole Starlink and the Leos. The Leos existed before. Yeah. But that really has changed kind of the dynamics in a bunch of different ways. But how it fundamentally works has not changed.

Corey Ham:

Yeah. Alright. Cool.

Bronwen Aker:

Alright. Gross.

Corey Ham:

Thank you

Bronwen Aker:

for and being here.

Corey Ham:

Thank you for being a ray of sunshine, bsd. We always need you.

BSD Bandit:

I appreciate y'all always.

Corey Ham:

Alright. See you next week, everyone.

BSD Bandit:

Alright. Yeah. Yeah.

Bronwen Aker:

Sir, we having a party after

Corey Ham:

Did you die, Ryan?

Hayden Covington:

I'm gonna I'm gonna go to the fun screen now and be sad at the fun screen instead.

Corey Ham:

Don't do that, dude. Go look at a tree.

BSD Bandit:

What's the fun screen then? I don't know.

Hayden Covington:

It's the screen plugged into my own computer, into the fun computer, not the sad computer.

Ralph May:

Oh. But so your work computer is the sad computer and the regular computer is the fun computer?

Hayden Covington:

No. They're both to the same screen, so there's almost no distinction

BSD Bandit:

in my

Hayden Covington:

brain, which is part of the problem.

Kip Boyle:

Just That

BSD Bandit:

is the problem. Know.

Corey Ham:

I'm glad you know how dysfunctional this

Ralph May:

is. Oh, yes. I was gonna say.

Hayden Covington:

I've been working at my counter for for, like, the last week with laptop on the car.

Ralph May:

Three screens, and they're all plugged to the same computer, and there's no switching. It's just it's just good.

Hayden Covington:

Well, I I have tried to switch from doing all of my note taking digitally to, like, using actual paper notebooks.

Ralph May:

Oh, wow. Very analog of you. I'll be over here. I'm, like, finding all the ways that I can just automate everything. Like, my whole notes, every everything.

Ralph May:

And then well, I'm just like, you know what I'm gonna do with all this information? I'm gonna give

Corey Ham:

it to you. I'm gonna be

Ralph May:

the first one to kill. I'll be the first one because they got everything. Dude, they're very thankful.

Hayden Covington:

They put you in the fire.

Bronwen Aker:

They're not gonna kill you first.

Corey Ham:

They need you, dude. All the gator hunting abilities? That

Hayden Covington:

just means they assimilate him first is

BSD Bandit:

what Yeah.

Corey Ham:

I I would say though

Bronwen Aker:

Yeah. That I can see.

Ralph May:

Though, if there's, like That I can see. You know, like, a level of addiction. I'm I'm pretty high on the addicted part at this point.

Corey Ham:

Oh, dude. You token maxing, bro? You token maxing?

Ralph May:

To the

Hayden Covington:

point where I'm like,

Ralph May:

well, if they shut it down, I have my own AI I'm gonna turn on. I I've got a whole plan for it.

Corey Ham:

I was playing around with

Bronwen Aker:

Hermes over the weekend, I was seriously tempted to install Hermes on the the DGX. And I wanted to to talk to to you, Hayden, and also to systems. It's like, if I give Hermes full control over the BHIS laptop, I want you guys to know about it so you can monitor if it does anything squirrelly.

Corey Ham:

Don't do that. You do use this

Hayden Covington:

once your laptop. Just kidding.

Corey Ham:

Yeah. Don't do that. I I I do use Hermes, but I would strongly recommend against that because Hermes Hermes loves to reinforce things that he didn't want it to reinforce.

Ralph May:

It's funny though, Corey. You say you're like, I can walk away. And I'm like, I feel the same way. Like, I do walk away. It's just that I enjoy it.

Ralph May:

I think that's the thing. Like, it's not that I can't not do it. It's just that I like to do it. I don't know.

Bronwen Aker:

Yes. It's okay, Ralph. We understand that you have

BSD Bandit:

to, you know,

Bronwen Aker:

maintain this illusion that you have

BSD Bandit:

to I mean, that's the

Corey Ham:

for granted.

Bronwen Aker:

You know, I I think have have you been to a 12 step meeting lately?

Corey Ham:

What? Tokens anonymous? Token maxers anonymous or something? Yeah. I'm gonna start

BSD Bandit:

one. I'm gonna start one in my own town or just to see if people show

Corey Ham:

up. Dude. But then it just it's like it's like paste your AI key here. Yeah.

Bronwen Aker:

Yeah. I admit that was powerless over AI, and I can't

Corey Ham:

The I think I've never been so not I've been never been so excited to go to work, but also so burned out at the same time. But I think Yeah. I would take this, like, you know, I would take this over wherever we were going before AI, which was just uncertain future. Like, at least I know right now, every day I spend talking to AI and having it find vulnerabilities and having it do my job for me is is me knowing I'm doing the right thing because the whole world is clearly focused on this at the moment. It's like it doesn't give me I have zero impostor syndrome right now because I'm just like, I am doing the AI thing and that's all I should be doing and that's all I really can.

Corey Ham:

That's fine. Like, it makes me feel like I at least am doing what our clients want me to be doing, which is using AI against them. Right? Like,

BSD Bandit:

that's Yeah.

Corey Ham:

Yeah. That's where that's where

Hayden Covington:

we are too, is is everything needs to be powered by AI just to keep up with the AI. So we're

Corey Ham:

at, like, the we're at

Hayden Covington:

the constant migraine struggling to sleep stages of burnout over here, but we're like, we gotta go harder.

Bronwen Aker:

At least until about yeah.

Ralph May:

But isn't this, like, essentially what they're talking about with the slowdown? Right? Isn't isn't isn't this, like, the kind of the piece, right, where we just keep pushing it until we don't know what it is anymore, right, where we, like, lose control? Not saying I believe in it.

Hayden Covington:

But but they're also not gonna slow down.

Ralph May:

That's the problem. I I read the articles. I'm not like, oh, yeah. I should probably, you know, cut back. I'm like, well, let's see how many tokens I can get today.

Corey Ham:

Well and

Bronwen Aker:

and too, it's like one of those one of the things I was talking with Kip about before the show when before anyone else showed up is that I spent hours over the weekend playing around with Hermes and and doing all kinds of stuff and and and breaking things and then ripping it out and putting it back together. And I I feel sorry for people who don't have that kind of love of learning new stuff.

BSD Bandit:

Yeah. I

Bronwen Aker:

this is moving so fast.

Corey Ham:

Let's see Oregon Taco Bell and they smoke lots of weed and it's fine.

Hayden Covington:

That sounds like a blast right now, brother.

Bronwen Aker:

Yeah. Smoking isn't isn't the excuse.

Corey Ham:

You you manufacture contentment, and then you just don't think about it. It's fine.

Hayden Covington:

Yeah. Yeah. I because I'm in the same boat, Bronwen, where I am enjoying learning this stuff. But for, like, basically, this entire year combining the fun stuff and the work stuff, it's been a hundred plus hour weeks every week, like, nonstop, which is at a certain point, I have to have, like I've I've basically set a goal of, like, 7PM, I'm done. I don't care.

Hayden Covington:

And then And

Bronwen Aker:

I have to take breaks, nothing. Right? Don't even turn on any computers at all.

Hayden Covington:

Yep. I'm like, Sunday, I can only use them. I can't touch them. Like, if something breaks, sucks to suck. Like

Bronwen Aker:

Yeah. Alright. Yeah. Speaking of

Corey Ham:

stepping away. I'm gonna step away. Time for dinner.

BSD Bandit:

Have a

Corey Ham:

good night.

BSD Bandit:

Later, guys. Later. Bye

Corey Ham:

bye.