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A lighthearted reading of Marcus Aurelius' Meditations. Join us as we read his private journal from 2,000 years ago and talk about how it makes us feel.
Speaker: Good morning, listeners.
Good morning.
All right, this is the all killer, no
filler hour of our podcast, where we
are just going to crank through it.
Should I just start reading right now?
Not a waste of time.
Okay, actually, no.
I say that, but I actually do want to
close one loop from our last episode.
No one cares about this but me,
but it's been on my mind since
we recorded our last episode.
Tell us.
Tell us.
Okay, so there was this one entry in
the last episode where Marcus was like,
thieves, perverts, dictators, parasites.
Parasites.
The things they enjoy.
Yes.
And we were like, what's that?
Parasites.
Yep.
P A R I C I D E S.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker: I had to look it up,
obviously, after the show.
But we talked about, we speculated
a little bit on the last episode
about what it might mean.
And you compared it to the word patricide.
It means parent killer.
So you were very close.
It's the general form of patricide
and matricide, essentially.
It's just peri apparently means parent.
It's where we get parent from.
It's still a weird word to me because A
Speaker 3: parent killer.
Yes,
Speaker: but Are there a lot of those?
Yeah, I agree.
It's a weird one.
The things a parent killer enjoys.
But also it's a weird word to
me because we don't call You
don't call a murderer a homicide.
Or
Speaker 3: a father killer,
Speaker: a homicidal, you don't call him
a patricide, it describes the act, not
the person, but anyway, apparently the
parasite can also describe the person
who does the parent killing in addition
to the act of the parent killing.
So anyway, listener, there's
your word for the day.
Parasite, meaning somebody
who kills their parent.
That was the loop I had to close.
Fantastic.
No one cares but me.
Tom.
We can all go to sleep
and sleep soundly now.
Yes, exactly.
These are the liberties that
a podcast like ours can take.
But nobody cares except us.
So I get to decide that we are
closing the loop on parasite.
And now you know what that word means.
So challenge you, listen to her,
work that into your every day.
It's okay.
Yeah.
Speaker 3: And then watch.
Watch as your number of
friends increases rapidly.
Speaker: These are our tips for success.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
How to win friends and influence people.
Yes.
Alright.
Speaker: We have been taking forever to
get through book six, which has been nice.
I'm enjoying book six.
We've been taking our time.
But I think we must hurry.
We owe our listeners
a little bit of speed.
We can't just linger in book six forever.
So I think we've committed in this episode
to trying to make some good progress.
Maybe.
Maybe even finishing
book six, if we really
Speaker 3: That's the goal.
Okay.
Speaker: Alright.
Should we get started?
Let's do it.
I believe we're on number 41.
Speaker 3: I think that's right.
Speaker: You take things you don't
control and define them as good or bad.
And so of course when the bad
things happen Or the good ones
don't, you blame the gods and feel
hatred for the people responsible.
Or those you decide to make responsible.
Much of our bad behavior stems from
trying to apply those criteria.
If we limited good and bad to our own
actions, we'd have no call to challenge
God, or to treat other people as enemies.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
So you limited good and
bad to our own actions.
So nothing that happens to us is good.
Yeah.
That is the premise of
the whole philosophy.
Yeah.
It's
Speaker: very stoic.
It'd be
Speaker 3: nice if you didn't even have
to label your own actions good and bad.
Speaker: You need to.
I guess you have to do that.
You need feedback for yourself.
That's true.
That's true.
This is so hard.
This is the version of markets
where I'm like, dude, this isn't.
Speaker 2: The same thing over and over.
Speaker: No, it's so hard.
It's I
Speaker 2: see.
Speaker: Some other person, you
Does something to you that sucks
Speaker 3: and
Speaker: you're like, nope, that's fine.
Speaker 3: That's not good or bad.
Yes The only thing
Speaker: okay, so generously to
him you can say All right, the only
thing I can react either badly or
Speaker 2: Yeah,
Speaker: and that's the only
thing that I can control but in
practice we all naturally think
of This good thing happened to
me this bad thing happened to me
I guess the way I end up relating
to entries like this is, it's like,
he's stating a version of it that
is, for my taste, far too extreme.
I don't think I could ever really look
at life like, there are no good and bad
things except for the things that I do.
But I do think I can like, do a 10
percent version of that, where it's like,
when stuff happens in my life, Focus,
put a little bit more of the emphasis
on how you react, as opposed to what
the circumstances of the thing are.
Speaker 3: Some objective
or bad assessment.
Yeah.
Speaker: I, he can nudge me in
that direction, but not to me this,
Speaker 3: I think, to be generous
to him, I think that's what he means.
You think so?
Yeah.
I don't think anyone can live without
first having that reaction of,
this is bad, my house burnt down.
Burned down.
That's bad.
Speaker: Yeah What why does he write
like this that I agree with you?
I think that is what he means
Speaker 3: So I think it's
you have to write like this in
order to get your point across.
Yeah,
Speaker: I guess that's
right So if you try wise
Speaker 3: everything is
clouded in Depending on
Speaker: you could try to write this
more subtly about hey try to focus
Such a boring, but that sounds fine.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
All right fine, but like The danger on
the flip side is that when you state it
so extremely, it's like easy to dismiss
and blow off and be like I'm never
going to be able to live like that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 3: I think it's a style.
Ascribe to it in my own writing.
Like I'll write in a much more intense
way than like truly if you really dug
into it, like it's always complicated,
but I hate when people write.
It depends, and so I just yeah, I
do everything I can to avoid saying
stuff like that Yeah, I think it makes
more for a more interesting reading.
Otherwise, everything depends.
Speaker: Yes.
I agree.
I think that's good writing,
too I know what you mean.
I definitely have That's funny you
say that I personally feel like I have
it depends syndrome in my writing or
like I try really hard to resist it
But there's something that I recognize
and especially like frankly Graduate
school writing, like all, like
Speaker 3: it's
Speaker: all academic papers,
especially from young academics are
just about the ways in which it depends.
Yeah
Speaker 3: sure.
That's funny, actually.
I feel like that's a that's
a classic English paper too.
You would just take anything and
then say, actually, it depends,
which is what we do with, to Marcus.
Yes.
Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Okay.
Maybe we could resolve just to.
Be more wholehearted and
Speaker 3: yeah, just we all know
Speaker: that for the most
part, it always all depends.
Yeah.
So where can we find the bits where
that's less true or we can write
something and say something that is
basically right without the ask the
constant asterisk of it depends.
Speaker 3: I think that's right.
Yeah.
Maybe we try that.
And that's the version where we
read it with generosity towards him.
Speaker: Yes.
Okay.
So my reaction to the, his book.
These upcoming entries will be either yes
or no, depending, and with no additional.
That's right.
There's no gray area.
Those are the good reactions.
Speaker 3: Those are the
only acceptable reactions.
Okay, great.
Let's see what we think
Speaker: about the next
Speaker 3: one.
Speaker: Number 42.
All of us are working on the same project.
Some consciously with understanding,
some without knowing it.
Parentheses.
I think this is what Heraclitus meant.
When he said that those who sleep
are also hard at work, that they too
collaborate in what happens and ruins.
Some of us work in one
way and some in others.
And those who complain and try
to obstruct and thwart things,
they help as much as anyone.
The world needs them as well.
So make up your mind who
you'll choose to work with.
The force that directs all things will
make good use of you regardless, will put
you on its payroll and set you to work.
But make sure it's not the job.
Chrysippus speaks of the bad line
in the play put there for laughs.
Okay, it feels, I mean I'm gonna do an
it depends, I can't not do an it depends.
Speaker 3: Don't do it, Tom.
Speaker: Okay.
Hold.
There's, okay, fine.
Hold.
I'll start by saying no, really?
It depends.
Okay,
Speaker 3: go ahead.
Go ahead, Tom.
Speaker: I like the idea, like he
follows these sentences up, where
he's You need the people who obstruct
and thwart and complain to you.
And then complain to you.
And then two sentences later, he's
choose who you want to work with.
But the point he has just made is,
you need everyone, you need the the
bad people, like the people who seem
to be the bad people to work with
and the good people to work with.
So how are you supposed to
choose who you want to work with
if you need all those people?
Speaker 3: It does seem a little fake that
he says, it's fine if you just want to
complain and obstruct and thwart things.
I don't think he really thinks it's fine.
Speaker: Really?
You think he's being like passive
aggressive or something there?
They help
Speaker 3: as much as anyone.
I'm
Speaker: taking him at face value.
Maybe those complainers
and obstructors are alike.
You really do need them because they
make other people realize where there
are flaws in the system and Okay.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Okay.
So maybe the difference between
those people and the people
he talks about at the end.
Yeah.
The one that Oppa Speaks.
Speaks, yeah.
Those ones
Speaker: that Oppa speaks of.
Speaker 3: Is that the
bad line in the play?
Put their just for
laughs is not meaningful.
Speaker: Yeah.
It distracts from the bigger project.
Speaker 3: Whereas trying to
obstruct or thwart a meaningful
project is actually important work.
Yeah.
You're the like the squeaky
Speaker: wheel or whatever, but.
Speaker 3: But it's, at least
the project is meaningful.
You're moving, You're not just,
you're not just doing some
kind of like short sighted.
Yeah.
Get a cheap laugh.
Yeah, that's
Speaker: interesting.
Speaker 3: I think that's right.
Speaker: Yeah.
Wow.
I like
Speaker 3: this a lot, actually.
Speaker: Yeah, okay.
With all that said I'm on board with
Speaker 3: it.
I like it a lot, this idea that
Lately I've been thinking a lot
about Jiro, Dreams of Sushi.
Okay.
And, it's so powerful the, look, all
of us are working on some project.
This idea that.
It might just be a job to you,
you're just going in and out, but
that's a craft and you could love
it or you could be numb to it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Some consciously with
understanding some without knowing it
and you could sleep through this part
of your life or you could embrace it and
love it and care for it and get meaning
out of whatever it is you're doing.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I think that's
a very powerful sentiment.
Speaker: Yeah, I dig that too.
I think that the bit about
some without knowing it or some
sleeping through it is interesting.
Yeah.
I think that's something we have less of
a concept of, or like this idea, there's
this implicit idea of sheer purpose
that, that runs through this, that I feel
like feels like an ancient idea to me.
Oh, the
Speaker 3: same project.
Yeah.
That's true actually.
Yeah.
Speaker: Which I think I'm
like, I'm open to that idea.
I think it's cool, but it's
something that we don't really
in the land of the free here.
We don't really think of that concept
very much, which I, it feels to me like
Speaker 3: that's true actually.
It's funny, I didn't even, I
read it over the past that.
The same, I just read past it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 3: All of us are
working the same project.
Speaker: Yeah.
I think that's quite interesting to me.
Speaker 3: What project?
The Advancement of Humanity.
Speaker: Yeah.
I, yeah, that makes it sound very like.
And it's hard to connect how Jiro is
connected to the advancement of humanity.
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3: So my
Speaker: Jiro Jiro content
probably doesn't make sense.
No.
I like it actually.
I think it's like,
There's a reason he doesn't say what
the project is, because it's really
hard to put into words what the project
is and the advancement of humanity.
It's maybe technically right, but that
sounds so grandiose that it's but it's
more just like all human operation is
this complicated, interdependent web of
stuff and Jiro's good sushi is part of
that actually does matter, like it's not.
It's easy to be like whatever, he could do
a bad job and nothing would be different.
Sure.
But I think the point that's being made
here is like the interconnectedness
of the world actually is all of us
feeding one big, crazy, lumbering
project that's undirected and there are
these like, actualized people who see
at least some of that project and are
like, oh yes, cool, I am contributing.
And there's a bunch of other
people who can't see it at all.
They are a part of it too.
Speaker 3: Okay, I like that.
Yeah, the best versions of that are
when you're Jira, we're all in some
ways making, doing something kind of
meaningless but if we do it well, we
can inspire others with that quality
and in itself it's a symbol of,
living well and living dutifully.
Speaker: Yeah.
And I think that there's a sort of
inspiration in the message you send
to the other people in your little
part of the network or whatever.
And I think that there's actually
believing that the craft itself
has this like, inherent value, even
though it's stupid and repetitive.
Weirdly it ends up mattering more
than any of us can appreciate.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: That it does.
That I think is being mentioned here too.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: Which is cool.
But I do think make up your
mind who you'll choose to work
with, runs counter to that.
I think that's right, actually, yeah.
It's what do you
Speaker 3: Cause you're not making up your
mind, you're just, you're on a project.
Yes.
Whether you know it or not.
All of us
Speaker: are on this project
together because we're here.
You're
Speaker 3: right.
Yeah.
That last bit doesn't make a lot of sense.
Yeah.
Make up your mind who you, is it like
with the gods or against the gods?
Speaker: I think I liked the thing you
said earlier about this last line about
the job that Christopher speaks of.
It seems like the only way to not
do it is to somehow call a bunch
of attention to yourself in the.
And not really somehow
participate in anyone's project.
That's what the bad line
in the play means to me.
You cannot be Jiro if you are like
Speaker 3: If you're not committed to
Craft and quality, because I think the
bad line in the play, it's the example
of a cheap laugh, but then it doesn't
help the storyline, and it distracts.
It ruins the
Speaker: magic.
Speaker 3: It ruins it, yeah.
Speaker: Yes, that's how
I'm reading it as well.
Speaker 3: Okay, so it's like,
Speaker: uh.
So what's the life analogy to that?
I guess.
Speaker 3: Ponzi scheme or something like
instead of building a sushi store like
your father, you start a Ponzi scheme.
That gets a cheap laugh or whatever,
but then it's bad for society long term.
That's an interesting
Speaker: one.
Yeah, I think that makes sense.
That one is different in that, to
me, the bad line of the play is
about the sort of immediate Oh,
let me just squeeze the juice right
now as opposed to letting it ripen.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Selling drugs, especially.
I feel like the implication is
that it should have an effect
on others, but yeah, even just
Speaker 3: yeah.
Speaker: Distracting other
people from their purpose somehow
Speaker 3: yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Taking them down.
Yeah.
Interesting.
Yeah.
I like it.
Yeah.
I'm still a little puzzled by make
up your mind who you'll choose.
Yeah, I agree.
To work with.
I guess I'll keep noodling
on that one maybe.
But I like the first paragraph, I agree.
I think looking at life as a big
shared project is a nice lens.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: Number forty three.
Does the sun try to do the rain's work?
Or a sleepiest Demeter's?
Speaker 3: Good job, Tom.
Speaker: And what about each of the stars?
Different, yet working in common.
Okay.
Speaker 3: That's it.
That's the end.
Okay.
Speaker: Do you know anything
about as sleepy as Demeter?
Speaker 3: I know that the sun
doesn't try to do its work.
Okay.
That much is obvious.
I guess
Speaker: we're able to make some
deductions about as sleepy as Yes.
Yes.
Okay.
I think, that's And what
Speaker 3: about each of the stars?
Different, yet working in common?
Question mark?
What?
Speaker: Okay let's try
to make sense of that.
Okay, so do your own
Speaker 3: job is the
Speaker: I think, so Yeah.
So the rain does a certain
The rain has a job.
Yes.
And so does a sleepiest demeanor.
Speaker 3: Clearly.
Speaker: But the sun, we are
obviously being led to notice,
doesn't do either of their jobs.
Speaker 3: No.
Speaker: It has its own job,
but it's focused on those.
Speaker 3: And it doesn't
even try to do it.
It doesn't try.
It's a sleepy assist job.
Speaker: Because, the
rhetorical implication is here.
These things know their job.
They're like, they are
attuned to the universe.
So the sun is I am about drying things
out, warming them up, so on and so forth.
And the rain is I am about wetting
things, helping plants etc.
Yes, that's the rain.
Washing things.
And tell us what Asleepiest
Demeter is about.
No, I was about to ask you to tell
us what Asleepiest Demeter is.
Demeter is a Greek god
or something, isn't it?
Speaker 3: Oh, that, that would be the
one, yeah, if this was just a dude.
Yes, it sounds like That
wouldn't make a lot of sense.
Speaker: Asleepiest
Speaker 3: Demeters.
Speaker: I don't know.
I feel like I remember Demeter
being in the Greek pantheon
somewhere, but I couldn't tell
you anything about her, I think.
Oh.
Anyway, what about each of the stars?
Yeah, what about each of
Speaker 3: the stars?
That's not answered.
What are
Speaker: you saying?
Speaker 3: Different, yeah, okay, so
he's saying they can't all be doing
each other's job, they all have to
be independent in the sky, because
that's how constellations work.
But they work together to
Speaker: show us the night sky.
In the same way that the sun and the rain
and the sleepiness together work together.
Fry out
Speaker 3: and then wet us again.
Speaker: Yeah, okay.
Speaker 3: Fantastic.
Speaker: I, does he know
that the sun is a star?
No, I, I.
That's a coincidence.
That's too confusing.
Yeah.
Okay, you're right.
You're right.
I don't think he knows.
Okay, it's just a weird,
Speaker 3: confusing thing.
Yeah.
Does the sun try to do Tom Madsen's work?
Speaker: Yes.
No.
And do I try to do its work?
Also, no.
No?
In that way, I am just as attuned
to the universe and just as
essential to its functioning.
You're doing perfectly.
As the sun.
So I like this rhetorical
construct, actually.
Fantastic.
Alright, very clear.
Alright, nailed it.
This one gets a yes from me.
Thank you for the binary yes.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker: Step 44.
If the gods have made decisions about me.
And the things that happened to
me, then they were good decisions.
It's hard to picture a
God who makes bad ones.
And why would they expend their
energies on causing me harm?
What good would it do them or the
world, which is their primary concern?
And if they haven't made decisions about
me as an individual, they certainly
have about the general welfare and
anything that follows from that is
something I have to welcome and embrace.
And if they make no decisions
about anything and it's
blasphemous, even to think so.
Because if so, then let's stop sacrificing
and praying, swearing, doing all the other
things we do, believing the whole time
that the gods are right here with us.
If they decide nothing about our
lives I can still make decisions, can
still consider what it's to my benefit
to do, and what benefits anyone is
to do what his own nature requires,
and mine is rational and civic.
My city and state are Rome as Antoninus,
but as a human being, the world.
So for me, good can only mean
what's good for both communities.
Okay, he's doing it again.
One of his like logical
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Semi logical proofs
Speaker: of stoicism, I feel like.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker: So he's doing like a
pascal's wage kind of thing at
the beginning, I feel like where
he is okay, either the gods make
decisions about me as an individual.
, in which case.
Those are good because the gods
are that thoughtful, that they're
thinking about us individually, and
there's no way they would make bad
decisions about us individually.
, which I mean, Okay.
Fine sword, yeah, or, but
maybe they're mean yeah,
Speaker 3: like half the gods
in the Pantheon were mean.
So I don't know why he
would think that, but Okay.
Speaker: Yeah.
Anyway okay.
Setting that one aside, he feels
like he has persuaded himself.
So that's branch one.
Yes, branch one is they make decisions
on the level of the individual.
Branch two is they make decisions on
the level of the general welfare, but
they don't think about individuals.
Speaker 3: Which is what he
comes back to, which is like,
For the greater good, I'm an ant.
Speaker: Yes.
Just
Speaker 3: fine, yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
But, he comes back to that via kind of
a different route, I feel so scenario
two is, the gods are responsible for
the general welfare, but they don't
care about it as much as individuals.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker: In which case he's fine, I'm
also interested in the general welfare,
so whatever they decide, I'm on board.
And then he's okay, or branch three baby.
Branch three is I make
no Blasphemy, why have I
Speaker 3: been sacrificing
Speaker: goats this whole time
option three is let's also consider
blasphemy This is what reminds me
of Pascal's wager, which is that
thought experiment where it's okay.
Speaker 2: Yeah,
Speaker: I'm about to die Either there's
no God in which case No afterlife etc.
Yeah, or there is a God in which
case I would like to go to heaven
So I should say oh, please God help.
Yeah, I like to go to heaven because
there's nothing to it He's thinking
through a similar sort of logic here,
I feel like, where he's Okay, now
let's consider the scenario where the
gods are derelict in their duties.
Then it's all up to me.
But it turns out if it's all up to me,
I'm still interested in the general
welfare of communities and so forth.
So that kind of ends up being
the same as the other scenarios.
I'm still going to work for their
Speaker 3: benefit, basically.
Speaker: Which is nice.
So it means regardless of He ends
up doing like an anti blasphemy
regardless of if the gods exist or
not, we should behave as if they do.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that makes sense.
I think like the atheistic version of
this is the is like not, the classic
nihilism version of this, which is okay.
Is there a meeting?
No, there's not.
Oh my goodness.
But so what is our job then?
What are we here to do?
We have to, despite no, simultaneously
know that there is no meeting.
and create meaning for ourselves.
The classic existential challenge.
Yeah, the existential challenge, yeah.
So that's essentially what he's doing.
It's even if the third branch is
true, even if all those goats died in
vain, we still need to have we need
to make those decisions ourselves.
Speaker: Yep, I agree.
Yeah, he's running way ahead
of those philosophers in a way.
Those guys don't exist yet.
Speaker 3: Yeah, old ideas.
Speaker: Yeah yeah.
Speaker 3: I dig it.
Fair enough.
Fine.
This one gets a yes.
Do you actually I've
never thought about this.
This one gets a yes.
I've never thought about this.
Speaker: The I like the way
he's parsing out the logic in
these three different scenarios.
Yeah.
I've definitely never like thought
through those three scenarios before.
Those three particular scenarios, yeah.
That's not really how I think we The
modern Yeah agnostic tends to think
through scenarios one and three But number
two is interesting and not one that we
talk about that right where it's like
they don't care about us as Individuals,
but they shape the general welfare.
That's not really a religious
concept that exists So well, I
Speaker 3: think what happens is
number two starts to matter a lot
if you are very religious And you
need and something bad happens to
you and you need to understand why
Speaker: yeah, it's
actually a nicer explanation
Speaker 3: Yeah
Speaker: Then number one,
Speaker 3: number one seems ridiculous
to me because it just there's so much
evidence of the contrary Yeah, no if
everyone had God like trying to you
know, trying to help them out then
it's just There's too many mutually
exclusive things happening in the world.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So number two is the
only version that I could imagine
with a God with a capital G.
I think
Speaker: we're maybe just revealing
how little we know about even modern
America, but my understanding is that
a bunch of people believe number one
here and the reason that why some
bad stuff happens to you and it's
not always good stuff is just that.
There are lessons contained
in those bad things.
It's not as simple as you should
always get what you want effectively.
But I, that said, I'm sympathetic to
the thing you just said, where I've
never really been able to connect to
the idea of, oh, there is a number.
Omnipotent power that has a
special interest in me and teaching
me lessons or getting help and
helping me get the things I want
Speaker 2: Yeah,
Speaker: number two feels like a kind
of Metaphysics or whatever state of the
universe that sounds more believable.
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker: To me,
Speaker 2: okay.
Speaker: Yeah, but truthfully I'm in
the blasphemy team blasphemy team three.
Yeah, but this is nice blasphemy where
it says, yeah We should still basically
be really nice to each other and be good.
That's a nice, that's the kind
of blasphemy that you're into.
Yeah.
Okay.
All right.
So yes.
Yes.
All right.
Big yes.
Over here.
Let's go.
45.
Whatever happens to you is
for the good of the world.
Boom.
That would be enough right there.
But if you look closely, you'll
generally notice something else as well.
Whatever happens to a single
person, is for the good of others.
Good in the ordinary sense,
as the world defines it.
That's in parentheses.
I don't know what kind of good
he's distinguishing there exactly.
Whatever happens to a single
person is for the good of others.
Yeah.
Okay.
Speaker 3: So my, so stillbirth.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 3: How does
that help other people?
Speaker: Yeah.
I guess generously, you could
say something like, they develop
sympathy for the person who had it.
Maybe they, their eyes are open
to the challenges of childbearing.
They, it causes them to reassess
their overall relationship with
life in the universe a little bit.
And that's good for them.
Um, so another way of looking at
this is hard for us, I think,
even to agree with the first part.
Whatever happens to you is
for the good of the world.
It's very hard to rationalize because
sometimes it feels like There's just
wasteful stuff that happens or something
bad happens to you Yeah, and the world
would have benefited if it had not
happened to you So in general, this
is a difficult thing to wrap your
mind around with to begin with any
saying yeah top of that There tend
to be these other Additional silver
lining II kind of things where like
in addition to whatever good thing
happened to you It benefits other people.
Yeah to in some indirect way.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Marcus is definitely
not You like logically consistent
because in, in 40, in 41, he talks
about how nothing that happens that
you don't control should be described
can be defined as good or bad.
And then 43 and 44 are all about,
and 45 are all about good and bad
things that you don't control.
Yes.
That's a really good
Speaker: point.
Yeah.
Yeah.
This one might be getting a no Marcus.
I'm
Speaker 3: sorry.
Yeah.
I've, I want to believe that things you
can't control are neither good or bad.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because
Speaker 3: otherwise I have to do
these crazy backflips to explain
why this thing is actually good.
Yes It's so much easier just
like it's not good or bad.
It's just it just is what it is.
Speaker: Yeah
Speaker 3: Yes, he seems to
really want everything to be good.
Speaker: Yeah So I think that's
we could read that maybe as like
historians or something here.
Yeah, where it seems like We actually,
I think, innately do this thing where
we look at most events that happen in
our lives as inherently neutral and it
depends, we are, we have learned some
stoicism automatically to our society.
From years
Speaker 3: of,
Speaker: yeah.
Whereas, it seems to me like the sort
of subtext of these past couple of
entries is that the dominant mode
of thinking at the time is to always
be ascribing this good or badness to
all the things that happen to you.
And so it's actually entry number 41
that we started this episode with.
Super radical.
That's the anomalous weird
thing where he's wait a minute,
let's not think like that.
But then he just lapses
right back into doing it.
Yeah.
And just makes arguments
within the framework of all
events are either good or bad.
Yeah.
Kind of thing.
Yeah.
Which is frustrating, I think, to us
as modern audiences because it's like,
hey, dude no, you're onto something.
Stick with that idea.
That's right.
Yeah.
And then he goes back to the wrong idea.
Speaker 3: Interesting.
Yeah I'm with you on no on this one.
It makes me also realize in, in, in 43,
I said that I believe in branch two.
So there's something out there
that's generally trying to do
the right thing for everyone.
Yeah.
I actually changed my mind.
Speaker: You're blasphemy with me.
Speaker 3: I'm either blasphemy
or every action has a silver
lining and deal with it.
Like I think I, either one I think is
fine, but I've realized that I don't think
there's some, like I've never in power.
That's something that
operating on the level of
Speaker: groups and general
Speaker 3: operating
on the level of groups.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I don't think like.
Yeah, I definitely feel that.
The greater good is what is being
Speaker: pushed for here.
I definitely agree with that, I think.
Yeah.
Yes, if anything it feels like yeah.
That seems especially implausible
to me in the modern world somehow
that yes, somebody doesn't care
about people but does care about
the overall sum of our society.
Societies, yeah.
It feels totally bad.
It's definitely different than the
way, That's very anti the American
way of thinking about life, I
Speaker 3: think.
Speaker: I think that probably was, Branch
Speaker 3: 2 probably was the most
prescribed to in the ancient world.
Yeah.
Because they were the Roman gods.
Yeah.
Of course they watched
over the Roman Empire.
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker: And I think that in super
inequitable societies, you need a little
bit more of Branch 2, where it's like,
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker: Yes, this person, a lot of
people have really terrible quality of
life, but that's because some God has
said, we need some people like that.
And some of you have to do that which
is, it's a lot harder to explain their
lives in terms of lens one of Oh yes, no.
Their life sucks all the time because
God is teaching them lessons constantly.
And it's actually everything that
happens to them is for their own
good is a hard thing to wrap your
mind around in that kind of society.
Sure.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker: Yep.
Okay.
You're welcome to admit that
you're just joining me in group
three, the happy, nice Blasterverse
camp, whenever you feel like it.
Okay.
I agree that one I'm happy we touched on
that because I do, I think the tension
we just identified between him thinking
everything is good and bad and then
realizing you shouldn't think like that.
I'm curious to see how,
if he ever gets past that.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker: It's not clear
to me whether he will.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
I mean that furthers, because
you have this reaction of it's
really hard to think this way when
we read that and you're right.
Even Marcus like immediately
goes back to thinking about that.
Yeah, it is really hard,
Speaker: but it is
hard, but also we do it.
I think to your point, yeah.
Like we have
Speaker 3: this
Speaker: bad stuff that happens
to you or me and we're lucky and
have nice lives where thankfully
we don't have that much bad stuff.
I think in the scheme of human lives.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Yeah.
That's probably a big part of it.
Speaker: That's a big part of it.
But my reaction is not,
ever, Oh gods, why?
Why me?
Why this bad thing?
I like it.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I guess it's also There's
been 80 generations of people passing
on probably some version of What you
learn over the course of life is slowly
how to be a little bit more, control
your own emotions and not be impacted
by external factors and maybe after 80
generations of that being passed up down
every time People as it's ingrained.
Yeah, generally people
are getting better at it.
Yeah
And it doesn't hurt that
like life is easier.
Speaker: Yeah.
Yeah, I think that's true And I think
maybe there's also an aspect of like
we live in this more individualistic
Culture now too which emphasizes how
you react to the circumstances in which
you find yourself Like I think there's
something almost Stoicism has worked its
way into American culture specifically,
I feel in that way where we do less of
the thinking on the sort of communal
or, oh yes, good or bad for the whole
nation or whatever kind of level.
Yeah.
Interesting.
Number 46.
Just as the arena and the other spectacles
weary you, you've seen them all before.
And the repetition grates on
your nerves, so too with life.
The same things, the
same causes on all sides.
How much longer?
Oof.
Very bleak.
Speaker 3: He hates the arena.
Yeah, gladiator fights.
Yes.
All those spectacles.
All those.
Okay.
Speaker: Here's my theory.
Life
Speaker 3: sucks too.
Speaker: Yes.
That's it.
Life's stuff.
Life's a show.
Speaker 3: Life's a show.
How much longer
Speaker: does it have to go on?
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker: Woof.
Okay.
Here's my theory.
We've talked about how one
time he went to a theater and
everyone called him a little cuck.
It feels like maybe that just
happened because he's, he
doesn't like the theater anymore.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Same with that chrysopis.
Yes, he's really attuned
Speaker: to the bad stuff
going on in theaters right now.
This is, this is just a straight up
Speaker 3: This is just a complaint.
There's no lesson.
Speaker: Yeah, it's just life.
Life is boring.
How much longer?
Yeah, it wearies me.
Speaker 3: Ugh.
Speaker: Wow.
There's such a tension there for
me between this guy who is so
clearly so interested in life, like
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker: For all his shortcomings that we
like to talk about, the dude is extremely
curious about how the world works, and is
constantly trying to work it out on paper.
Yeah.
Pretty insightfully.
So it's weird for him to be like,
okay, I guess if you felt like
Going to plays he doesn't like.
Yeah, he doesn't, okay, yes, that
is clearly established, but I
guess if if you, if I went through
my every day being like, I need
to figure out how this all works.
Yeah.
What it, what are all the underlying laws
Speaker 2: that
Speaker: dictate everything that happens?
Speaker 2: Huh.
Speaker: Would I eventually
find life wearying?
Speaker 2: Yeah,
Speaker: I think that
impulse would exhaust me.
You know what I mean?
I think it's because he's
Marcus that life is wearying.
In part.
It's because he's like He's
overthinking everything?
Yes!
He's okay, this is complicated.
Let me see if I let me write
this down and see if it's true.
Ah, god, it's still not quite right.
Over and over again.
Yeah.
The same causes, the same effects, the
same shit is going on, but he can't
quite explain it or put it into words.
Yeah,
Speaker 3: that's right.
I think he's a very rigid guy.
He's I need to do the right thing, all the
time, be right, think logos, everything.
And it's just a very hard way to live.
Totally, it's exhausting.
And so maybe if he just relaxed
a little bit at the arena,
Speaker: Yeah,
Speaker 3: and did what he likes
to lay down and had some grapes,
yeah do some stuff Romans Like
Speaker: a wine buddy.
Yeah,
Speaker 3: have a couple.
Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Fuck it.
Yeah.
Yeah, you don't need to be the
perfect Emperor all the time Yeah,
maybe he would have a better.
Yeah Maybe you would have a better time.
Yeah.
Yeah poor guy.
Speaker: Yeah.
Okay.
Yes, I guess I'm really trying to do a
good job Yes, I prefer to read this as
yeah Boy, my life is tough, which I think,
yes, true, I feel bad for you, Marcus.
But you're, he's doing it to himself.
Yes I agree, but it's yes, I,
he's doing it to himself, but
that seems like it's just his.
His MO.
Yeah, his nature, unfortunately.
Yeah.
Hang in there.
Be I guess, Hey, thanks for
doing what you're doing.
I guess I'm happy to know that you are
not even halfway done writing this book.
So whatever Wearying life
is at least a lot longer.
, you didn't, whatever, however tired you
were feeling, you didn't let it stop you.
It's a long time to go, so keep it up.
But yeah, you are not even you're near
intermission if life is a play here.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: Number 47, keep
this constantly in mind.
I love an entry that starts that way.
Love it.
That all sorts of people have died.
All professions, all nationalities.
Classic.
Follow the thought Nationalities?
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's an
Speaker: interesting word, I agree.
Follow the thought all the way down
to Philistion, Phoebus, and Oregonian.
Speaker 3: So glad Tom is reading.
Go ahead.
Speaker: Now extend it to other species.
We have to go there too, where
all of them have already gone.
The eloquent and wise, Heraclitus,
Pythagoras, Socrates, the heroes of old,
the soldiers and kings who followed them,
Eudoxus, Hipparchus, Archimedes, The
smart, the generous, the hardworking,
the cunning, the selfish, and even
Manippus and his cohorts who laughed
at the whole brief, fragile business.
All underground for a long time now.
And what harm does it do to
them, or the others either?
The ones whose names we don't even know.
The only thing that isn't worthless, to
live this life out truthfully and rightly.
And be patient with those who don't.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Yes.
We're all gonna die, so you live with
that in mind, but also do the right thing.
Speaker: Yeah.
I like the little sentence
at the end about be patient
with the people who don't.
Maybe I've said that before.
Who are
Speaker 3: the people who don't?
Speaker: Everybody who's being like
Speaker 3: Who's like being
really vain about their legacy?
Speaker: Or are just like
being selfish or not living
Speaker 3: truthfully and rightly.
Yeah.
Who are
Speaker: blaming other people
for their problems and whatever.
Yeah.
You could be like a real dick about it.
And most of the time when I'm
reading Marcus, it's hard for me
not to imagine that he's a real dick
about this all the time, because
it feels like he would be like
Speaker 2: the worst
Speaker: boss you've ever had, but
Speaker 2: yeah, he
Speaker: says this just often enough
where he's yeah, they're, yeah,
they don't know what they're doing.
I like it.
Speaker 3: So if you graphed my
emotional state as you were reading
this entry, it like went up and up.
So in the beginning it was keep
all this constantly in mind.
All sorts of people have died.
So this was all, I was like down low.
I feel like I've heard this.
I've heard this before.
Yes.
All professions.
And then all nationalities.
I started to the slope increased.
I was like, oh boy, is he going to talk
about like the Germans are cool too?
Oh, and then he, and then I
got to an absolute climax at
now extended to other species.
Speaker: And
Speaker 3: I was like, yes, we're
going to get, lion's jaws again.
Yes.
But then I don't know
what he means by species.
Cause it just is.
He just gave a bunch of Greeks and Romans.
Speaker: I agree.
It feels I agree.
The first paragraph has more promise than
the subsequent paragraphs deliver on.
Especially when he says, now extended to
other species, we have to go there too.
I understand now, and through context,
that what he means by that is we all,
we have to go to the grave in the
same way that they go to the grave.
But I thought he meant that.
Logically, we have to extend this
thought to animals and species, and
I was like, oh cool, wow, he's gonna
make an argument for why we're the
same as animals in terms of Bores.
Yes, exactly.
But yes, it's a less fun kind of,
we have to go there too, it just
means the grave beckons us all.
Cool.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Anything else about the particular list?
No, it's just a classic list.
Cool.
I guess I like seeing
some math guys in there.
Yeah.
Greek, Greek math guys.
I knew he liked and knew about them,
but not a lot of shout outs for
Pythagoras and Archimedes before.
Pythagoras.
Yeah.
Before now.
So that's cool that they get
Speaker 3: that.
Were they even considered, was that even,
was it math or was it all philosophy?
I think
Speaker: it was like, yeah, those texts
had a bunch of philosophy in them too,
but we think of them as math guys now.
Awesome.
Number 48, when you need encouragement.
Think of the qualities the
people around you have.
This one's energy, that one's modesty,
and other's generosity, and so on.
Nothing is as encouraging as when
virtues are visibly embodied in
the people around us, when we're
practically showered with them.
It's good to keep this in mind.
Speaker 3: That's a very nice sentiment.
Yeah,
Speaker: that's something that
he, this feels very new to me.
We see him, he models this sometimes,
I feel like, where he talks about
the gratitude and he can wax very
poetic about his mentors or whatever.
Speaker 3: That's right.
He does a good job, I think
it's easy to try to find someone
who has everything you want.
Yes.
And then he does a good job
saying, actually, just pick a
thing that you like about them.
Speaker: Yeah.
That's a good way to live.
This is lovely.
Yeah.
Totally novel thought for
him, I think, about, yes.
Speaker 3: Showering you
with their competence.
With their virtues.
With their virtues.
Yeah.
Speaker: Also, when you need
encouragement, is an interesting way
for one of his entries to start to me.
Yeah.
Because he feels like this sort of
Speaker 3: He constantly needs it.
I
Speaker: guess I still, after all this
many episodes and this much reading,
I still don't feel like I have a great
beat on his internal emotional state.
Yeah.
Because sometimes he seems like
this total machine, constant.
Oh no, yeah.
But then other times it's oh no, he's
actually very fragile and vulnerable.
Speaker 3: Oh, I always read
him as fragile and vulnerable.
You think
Speaker: he's
Speaker 3: always fragile and vulnerable.
He's like always on the edge of
just going to his tent and crying.
That's how I read this.
Speaker: This one certainly
feels that way to me where he's
here's a thing I've learned from
when I'm about to start crying.
But sometimes I guess it's because of how
authoritative he is in the way he speaks.
Speaker 3: The writing is
very like, crisp in some ways.
He projects a lot
Speaker: of strength a lot of
the time I feel like, which makes
me feel like he's not like this.
Speaker 3: For better or worse, I always
read that strength as the counterbalance.
Yeah, okay.
Speaker: Okay it's projection
maybe a little bit too.
He's got a duty to he has,
he's practiced at seeming.
Speaker 3: Cause, cause I think If you
true strength leads you to more, it
depends statements, I think because you
don't feel the need to be as dramatic.
That's interesting.
Yeah.
That resonates.
You're like emotionally calm.
And you're, you can just like
yeah, you can think through things.
You get wisdom.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker: Okay.
So his absoluteness, his tendency
to be really this is how it is.
Speaker 3: It's a form
of emotional instability.
Yeah,
Speaker: it does in a way, I
mean it's funny to accuse him of
this because I think in general
he's a pretty smart wise guy.
But there's something, I
recognize as teenage about it.
Where there's this tendency, at
least in modern life, when you're a
teenager you tend to hold these very
absolute views of how the world works.
And then the project of getting
older is to be like, eh, actually.
Yeah.
Yeah, he has done.
Maybe it's because he is actually just
not that old in the scheme of things.
That's part of why I feel.
Yeah.
What is he like 26?
Yeah.
Yeah, it's possible that a lot
of our like criticism of him.
Yeah, it's very unfair.
Fair.
We're criticizing who is
effectively a very young guy
whose job it is to be very wise.
Got an intense
Speaker 3: day
Speaker: job.
Yeah.
And he's doing a really good job of
that for someone who is 24 or whatever.
Speaker 3: That's funny.
Speaker: Yeah.
Yeah.
And he's, given that, the
fact that he can, Yeah,
Speaker 2: he's doing great.
Speaker: He's doing great.
And the fact that he can admit this kind
of fragility at all when you write little
entries about what he does, what he needs
encouragement is remarkable or like.
It's not something you'd expect
young men to do now, I feel like.
Speaker 3: That's true.
Yeah, he's definitely Past surpassed
level one or whatever like acceptance.
Speaker: Yeah.
Yeah.
All right.
Good job, pal I don't know how old you
actually are, but I like to go with 24 I
like imagining that you're 24 because I
guess yeah, that makes you more relatable
right to me number 49 This one's gold.
It doesn't bother you that you weigh
only X or Y pounds and not 300 Why
should it bother you that you have
only X or Y years to live and not more?
You accept the limits placed on your
body, accept those placed on your time.
Speaker 3: That's nice.
I love
Speaker: the example.
It's the 300.
300 pounds.
Obviously 300 is the key detail here.
Without that detail, this
would be way less fun.
He would like to weigh 300 pounds.
Secretly.
Yes.
He wants to weigh 300 pounds.
Yes.
Ideally, obviously, we all.
And
Speaker 3: live forever.
Speaker: But, those are his two wishes.
We have all gotten past it.
Which.
Right guys?
That's right.
That's true.
Naturally, none of us actually
want to be 300 pounds.
It doesn't bother you.
, the UA only, whatever, A lame 280 pounds
.
Speaker 2: Oh, amazing.
Speaker: Yeah.
I wonder,
Speaker 2: yeah.
Speaker: The X or Y thing
catches my attention too.
I'm too, it's weirdly mathy.
Yes.
I'm too math brained maybe, but
I can't be like, oh, easily.
He's like doing algebra.
Yeah.
Speaker 3: X or Y.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And by the way, it's.
It's the same x, so you would
weigh, whatever, 280 pounds
and live only 280 years.
It
Speaker: could be y, though.
That's good.
Yeah, you really should
just, yeah, whatever.
I think you could simplify his
equations a little bit here, but, uh.
Speaker 3: Okay.
But, core concepts you don't get to choose
how much you weigh or how long you live.
Speaker: Sort of, except that this
feels like a microcosm of one of
my complaints about stoicism, where
he is granting that your weight is
something outside of your control.
Which is only true.
Is that true?
I don't think so.
There are limits placed
Speaker 3: on your body.
Speaker: Yes, but also, there are
ways in which you can control that.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, anyway.
Speaker 3: It's funny to me because
he, so the analogy he draws is, you
can't control your weight, so don't
try to control your, how long you live.
Yeah.
But you can control your weight.
Speaker: And you can
control how long you live.
And by controlling your weight,
you can control how long you live.
There's wrong in four different ways.
This one gets a big no.
A big no from me.
I'm sorry.
Sorry.
I like the idea in general of accept that
there are limits placed on your time.
I agree with you there, but the argument
you're making to get there, big fat no.
There are so
Speaker 3: many heights would be a much
Speaker: better analogy here.
Much better.
Than
Speaker 3: we
Speaker: do.
Yes, totally.
It reminds me of one of my favorite
Ali G jokes, which is that Sasha Baron
Cohen, the Borat guy before Borat.
He would bring on a lot of
NBA players for some reason.
How do I get as tall as you?
Yeah, see, how did you train
to be as tall as you are?
They would be like, what
are you talking about?
And he would be very serious about what
do I need to do to be as tall as you?
It was such a good, basic joke
that like, they could not answer.
Oh, the rules, yes.
I also remember him asking them how many
springs are in a regulation basketball.
And he's no they didn't.
There's air, and he's then why
does it float up to the ceiling?
And no, they couldn't explain
how basketball is a regulation.
Which is also a really good joke.
Okay.
I like this one because you reminded
me of a funny LEG joke, Marcus, but
otherwise it's a no for me, dawg.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I like it.
I like that he thinks he
could never weigh 300 pounds.
Speaker: I'm sure if he tried
hard enough, he could do it.
Yes, you especially could weigh 300
pounds if you wanted to, Marcus.
You have the resources at your disposal.
You could eat nothing but grapes.
Speaker 3: But no, he has to accept
the limits placed on his body.
Yeah.
Good job.
Number 50.
Number
Speaker: 50.
Do your best to convince them.
But act on your own,
if justice requires it.
If met with force, then fall back
on acceptance and peaceability.
Use the setback to practice other virtues.
Remember that our efforts
are subject to circumstances.
You weren't aiming to do the impossible.
Aiming to do what, then?
To try, and you succeeded.
What you set out to do is accomplished.
Speaker 3: Nice.
Speaker: Kind of interesting.
Yeah.
Speaker 3: So control what you
can control, which is to try.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker: So there are certain
things in life where your
job is to attempt to do them.
And if you get stopped, that's fine.
You still did the goal.
That's, this is nice.
It's for the first time in
a way, practical advice.
Like he, it's the first time I
can remember where he's really
grappling with what are the things
that you're obligated to do?
And how far should you go in doing them?
Yeah.
Which is always the thing that
he has left subtextual, and I'm
always mentally screaming out
Okay, but what are those things?
Yeah.
He's talking about them here.
Obviously, the stupid, it
depends part of my brain is like,
Hey, this is not always true.
Sometimes your goal is not just to try.
Sometimes your goal is
to actually accomplish.
Speaker 3: When is that the case, Tom?
Speaker: Something.
You might have, Heart surgery?
Yeah, exactly.
You have an obligation to
protect someone, and you I tried,
Speaker 3: but isn't the idea
that if you have to actually try?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 3: As long as you actually try,
there are things outside of your control.
But you feel like there are times where
it's just it's more important to have.
The example I'm thinking of is you
might not be the guy for the job.
If you tried and failed maybe you
should find someone else to do this.
Speaker: Yeah I think there
are situations like that.
But is that always, you feel like that
all situations are captured that way?
Speaker 3: I, okay, I guess that's true.
The example is you're a dog but
you're also a neurosurgeon, and you
keep trying to do brain surgery.
And what matters is that you tried.
But like at the end of the
day, okay, there's more that
matters in this situation.
Maybe you should worry
about whether you succeeded.
Speaker: It seems, yeah.
I, okay.
I guess there's like an asterisk on
the word try here where it's it's
some sort of good faith try where
it's actually, the thing you're
trying to do is actually possible
in a bunch of other stuff like that.
Because yes, it could be like, okay,
I have the duty of transporting
these people from here to here.
So what I did is put them on
my back and flap my arms really
hard to try to fly somewhere.
And because I tried, I've met
my duties, but the point is
that's not really trying because.
Speaker 3: The way to deal with this is
to level up what you're trying to do.
Cause you could do the very scoped
down version is try to flap my wings
and lift myself off the ground.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 3: That's, but
that's not the thing.
Level it up to transport these
people, and realize that, okay, maybe
me trying to flap my wings is not
the best solution to that problem.
Speaker: But if the
standard is just trying
Speaker 3: but as long as
you're trying to achieve the
outcome, and not just trying to
Speaker: And so your point
is that does not constitute
trying to achieve the outcome.
Like
Speaker 3: a dog neuroscientist,
neurosurgeon, if they're trying to
help this person avoid with brain
surgery they should get a real doctor.
They
Speaker: should, yeah, their duty is not
to actually do the surgery themselves.
Yeah.
Yeah, yes, okay, that's, I agree
with you that it's a lot of work
is being done by the word try here,
Speaker 3: and we,
Speaker: so yes, okay.
Speaker 3: Or the assumed
subject of that word.
Speaker: Yeah.
In which case I like it as, it frames
everything in the way you just refer
to it like, sometimes you're the man
for the job and sometimes you're not.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker: All situations
are like that, basically.
Yeah.
Where your duty, to the extent that you
have duties, is To be like, find out
if you're the man for doing this job.
Sometimes you're not
Speaker 2: right.
Speaker: But just go through
that process over and over again.
You're fine.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: It's interesting.
Speaker 3: Sorry, I know you
were, I know you created some
nuance, whereas I just wrote no.
I keep defending a market.
Speaker: No, I He meant this.
Yes.
I think that is the, our
project here actually.
Okay.
Okay.
I can't, I think
Speaker 3: it's funny because
it can very easily be read as.
Your aim was to try and you succeeded.
And so the flapping the wings
example is very funny in that sense.
So yeah, so that's the nuance.
Speaker: I guess I'll add what I think
my presumed subtext here, which is he is
in charge of a military campaign right
Speaker 3: now,
Speaker: right?
So that's what this feels like
Speaker 3: to me.
Speaker: He's talking about
Speaker 3: Do your best to convince them.
You lose,
Speaker: yeah, you lose battles.
Your butt.
It's okay.
Sometimes you lose battles.
That doesn't make you immoral or bad.
It's just that's how it goes sometimes.
Is that a good attitude
for generals to have?
In general, I feel like this text is, it's
always prescribed, the marines in the U.
S.
love it or whatever.
It's prescribed to military people.
This attitude feels contrary to the way
I feel like they think a lot of the time.
Where it's like, You don't have
a moral imperative to succeed
at the things you try to do.
Yeah.
You just have to try.
Yeah.
Even if what you're doing is defending
the world from evil or whatever.
Speaker 3: I guess the system works if
you believe in the bureaucracy above you.
If you believe that there's a reason
why you were selected to be the general.
Then you have to believe this.
That, okay, I lost the battle,
but I can still win the war.
Yeah.
But it's a really silly philosophy if
you're just not the right guy for the
job and you need to stop trying and,
and remove yourself from this position.
Yeah.
So it assumes that someone above you
has made the correct staffing decision.
If
Speaker: everyone thinks
this way it works, but if not
everyone thinks this way, there's
Speaker 3: it could fail horribly
if everyone thinks this way.
Speaker: Yes, but I think what you're
saying is Let's, if the generals above
you also are thinking this way and are
like, they are doing their duties and
making sure that the people beneath
them are the right people for the
job and stuff, then you are the right
person for the job and therefore You
thinking this way is appropriate too.
But if the generals above you are
greedy or lazy or whatever else and
put you in positions Or incompetent.
Yeah, or incompetent and put you
in positions where you are not the
right person for the job, then all
of a sudden this becomes stupid
bad advice for you individually.
Yeah.
So it's maybe a little idealistic?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess it's
just a way to deal with stress.
That's just all it is.
It's just a nice way to just live.
Yeah.
And not, agonize.
Speaker: Yeah.
Usually I'm very receptive
to that kind of stuff.
For some reason, This one's bothering you?
This one feels lazy to me.
It feels like Sure.
I'm just Sure.
Whatever.
I
Speaker 3: think I understand
where you're coming from.
Because it's very easy to use this.
Speaker: It feels too broadly.
This is
Speaker 3: a scalpel that
can be used in a bad way.
It feels too broadly applicable.
Yeah,
Speaker: I agree.
Yeah.
Okay, I'm glad you defended
Marcus there though a bit.
I do think that's the game here.
That's
Speaker 3: the, that's
Speaker: what we're
Speaker 3: doing.
Okay, 51.
51.
Speaker: Ambition means tying your well
being to what other people say or do.
Self indulgence means tying it
to the things that happen to you.
Sanity means tying it to your own actions.
Whoa.
This is cool.
Yeah, wow.
I've never thought of those three things.
Ambition versus self
indulgence versus sanity.
We don't think, I don't think of
those as three points of a triangle.
Of a triangle, yeah.
Or in particular.
Speaker 3: The way, this
makes a lot of sense.
That's the way he writes it out to me.
Ambition.
Imagine what matters to you?
What other people say?
What the world does to you, or
your own actions, and, yeah.
Speaker: Help me with number two there.
Self indulgence means
tying your well being.
It's playing the
Speaker 3: victim, right?
Speaker: It's
Speaker 3: oh you're self, you're like,
Speaker: I see.
I see.
That kind of self indulgence.
Yeah.
Okay, got it.
I guess when I think of self indulgence,
I think more of just greed or oh,
Speaker 3: I see
Speaker: Lustfulness and that kind of
thing Tying it to the things I guess
that okay I think even that if you're
just somebody with a big at all you
like is to eat big delicious meals that
are Indulgent sure that too is about
like I'm only happy if the world gives
me those give me those meals Yeah,
Speaker 3: I think it is Right, it's
Self-indulgent is to be, is to blame
the world around you, for example.
And not take personal blame like
tho Those are all examples of Yeah.
Self-indulgence.
Yeah.
Speaker: That's nice.
Yeah.
Speaker 3: This is a nice
Speaker: Yeah.
Kind of
Speaker 3: summary that translates
very well to the modern day for me.
Speaker: Yeah, I agree.
Ambition especially is like a,
Speaker 3: yeah.
Speaker: This is very
critical of ambition.
It is very critical of ambition,
which like, yeah, that's true.
We use as a more.
Could be a good thing.
Neutral term, at least
in the modern culture.
But this is a very there's,
we don't generally think of
ambitious people as insane.
Speaker 3: No, that's true.
That's actually a good point.
You're right.
You're right.
Now that you've put it that way,
like ambition can just be viewed as,
I am ambitious to improve myself.
Speaker: Yeah.
We use it.
We also use ambitious to be in like.
Somebody who cares deeply
about improving other people's
lives could be ambitious, too.
They're not it's a contrast
to laziness for us, almost.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but it's probably
fair that someone who's works, really
wants to improve other people's
lives would tie their well being
to what other people say or do.
It's unlikely that you're someone
who's ambitiously trying to improve
other people's lives despite the
fact that they all say, please don't.
Speaker: Yes.
I agree.
I think he's almost he's coming up with
a way of distinguishing what we might
now characterize good ambition from
bad ambition or something like that.
Bad ambition, which is the kind
he means, is this version where
you're all about oh, I just want the
highest post and I want the power.
You could accomplish the same thing sanely
by focusing on your actions instead.
Speaker 3: Very nice.
Speaker: Cool.
Last one.
Okay.
We're not gonna finish.
We're not gonna finish.
We will for sure finish next time.
For sure.
And probably get into book.
Seven as well, but yes next time we'll be
rapid mode because we're in a nice heat.
He ends with some short guys Yeah here.
Okay number 52 You don't have
to turn this into something.
It doesn't have to upset you Things
can't shape our decisions by themselves
Wow, that's cool very like Kind of zen.
Yeah, very
Speaker 3: zen.
Speaker: Things can't shape
our decisions by themselves.
Okay.
Speaker 3: It's a, they use it
as extremely vague references.
This is a
Speaker: bit teenage, Marcus.
It's a little bit absolute.
I'm feeling a little itch in my throat.
That makes me want to say, it depends.
Speaker 3: You have to turn, you don't
have to turn this into something.
I think that's a nice
thing to say to yourself.
Yes.
Speaker: It reminds me of something
he said earlier about, I forget
exactly how he phrased it, but
his point is life and everything
important happens in these brief
little moments between when something
happens to you and your reaction.
This is another way of saying
that to me, in a way that's nice.
That's okay, something happens to you
and you have this little moment of power
and control and you can do what you want.
Speaker 3: It's very self
aware, It's very good, I
Speaker: think.
Yes.
If he's really 24.
It was pretty impressive.
I guess I'm a little bit jealous
of being this astute at that age.
Yep.
If I'm being totally honest.
Speaker 3: Yep.
It's like a tone okay, the example
I'm thinking of here is, uh, it's
Friday night, we've had a long week,
and it's like a the tone was a little
snappier than I would have liked.
I don't have to turn this into something.
It doesn't
Speaker: have to upset me.
Someone cuts you off in the parking lot.
You can have a meltdown if you want.
Or, maybe you say, Have
a nice day, stranger.
Speaker 3: Sometimes it's nice
to have the meltdown, but Yeah.
Speaker: I feel you.
I agree that this is describing quite
a top of the Maslow's hierarchy.
If you can really operate like
this, you are really in control of
yourself in a way that is admirable.
I guess
Speaker 3: this is
Speaker: Yeah, at his best.
At his
Speaker 3: most
Speaker: calm.
Yeah, I think this is
all of us at our best.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker: Potentially.
Yeah, I think that's So
Speaker 3: the writing.
The way he's writing these last few
Speaker: sections.
Yes, I agree.
Yeah, He is still a product of his
time, I think, as we identified earlier.
Where, say, he contradicts himself
or he's struggling with some
stuff that feels easy to us.
But sometimes he nails it and,
yes, it is remarkable to me.
It always is.
But these last couple, especially
how well these translate across time,
how thoughtful he was to write these
things and have them still feel like
we can totally relate to them now.
Quite a book.
Yeah.
We haven't changed that much.
Good job, dude.
Good job, Marcus.
All right.
Should we wrap it up there?
Let's do it.
All right.
See you next time.
Bye
Speaker 3: bye.