Tom and Paul read meditations

What is Tom and Paul read meditations?

A lighthearted reading of Marcus Aurelius' Meditations. Join us as we read his private journal from 2,000 years ago and talk about how it makes us feel.

Hey, Paul.

Good morning.

Good morning, Tom.

Happy new year.

This is our first
episode recorded in 2025.

2025.

New year.

Maybe.

What do you think will happen at
the podcast in the new year, Tom?

In the new year.

I bet we will finish book
seven of meditations.

No, no promises beyond that, but
we will finally get to the end of

the interminable Book seven here
is my, that's my prognostication.

Yeah.

Resolutions get to book eight.

Yes.

Have some laughs.

Okay.

Yeah.

Some laughs or order a
fridge magnet, I guess order.

If you think we're going to order a
fridge magnet in 2025, I feel like.

Yeah.

Is that too soon?

Do you think I'm jumping the
gun by saying that we are 60?

My helpful book app.

Yes.

I see.

It's telling me we are 60 percent done.

Yeah.

We've been doing this
for how many years, Tom?

Two.

Yeah.

Two.

Yeah.

That tells me.

Okay.

But my math brain says that if we
extrapolate the rate at which we

are currently reading, we will be 90
percent done by the end of this year.

Although we have been slowing down,
I think, so I don't know if that

extrapolation is really appropriate.

90 percent might be the, I know we won't
be totally done, but you might be able

to fire a fridge magnet order by the time
we reached the nine, book 11 or 12 of 12.

Let's set it as a goal, Tom.

It's very exciting.

Let's set it as a goal to, to get
to the finish line to stretch goal.

Yes.

And to order some fridge magnets and
to celebrate by the time next year.

Yes.

We will be fully meditated.

Okay.

Yeah, I know.

I like that.

I would love to be, yes.

To have finished by the end of this year.

Yeah.

I think that'd be great.

I think we could do that.

I think that is, I think if we're
diligent about recording this podcast,

we have a very good shot at that.

We'll also both be extremely fit.

And, uh, we'll have done daily
gratitude journaling every morning.

Yes.

What else do we have on your
New Year's resolution list?

I will have read a good number
of books by that other books

in addition to meditations.

Yeah.

I think we're both just going
to be incredible people.

Yes.

Yeah.

I'm next year.

Very exciting year.

What's on my list?

So I've I usually start
at this stage of my life.

I usually, my top goal is
related to my partner, PASNA.

So this time, so we do this thing, we
have this like process of how we track,

um, are kind of, are we call them tips.

So like conflicts.

And so one, one thing is
we want to reduce those.

We had an average of 1.

25 for a month last year.

And now we're so precise.

We want to reduce them to one per month.

And then we also want to reduce
the, like we have this like

escalation ladder or whatever.

So we track that as well.

So that's one goal that we track.

Another one is so measurable.

Wow.

Gosh, it's lovely.

I liked that you guys apply this
to your relationship, but such.

Such PMs too.

It's really good because otherwise
what the feeling I hate is when there's

like tension or conflict and there's
no value to that tension or conflict.

I hate the feeling of this
was unpleasant moving on.

That was yeah, aggravating.

Yeah.

So this creates the system gives
meaning to those and every time

afterwards okay, how could we we
have a shared goal to produce these.

So how can we do that?

And what can we do differently next time?

I think it's nice.

Yeah.

Cool.

That's great.

Yeah.

I'm just sorry.

I'm just going to say the same thing
again, but I just love, I was like my,

I'm curious to hear the rest of yours in
general, that my thing with resolutions

is I think it's so important to make
them measurable in one way or another.

And I'm just really admiring how
you guys are doing that with an area

for resolutions that I think it's
very hard to, I think lots of people

want to improve the relationships.

in their life with their romantic
partner or with others too.

And it's hard to turn that into a
concrete resolution, but I'm just

really in awe of how you guys do that.

Thanks.

Yeah.

I can share our doc with you sometime.

Sure.

Yeah.

It goes a lot deeper than that.

If you really, if you're genuine,
I'm sure it does with the two of you.

Yes.

I bet you have some really
excellent documentation.

Okay.

I interrupted you though.

What else is on the list?

And then the other big
category is finding peace.

With, my work at Keeper, I think I, I want
to find a better sense of tranquility,

a better sense of basically derive
my joy from something other than, the

ups and downs of the business go up.

Yeah.

Go up.

And I think towards the end of this year,
I was starting to get better at that.

I think I was starting to build a
better relationship with remote work.

And I just want to continue that trend.

And wherever things end up, I want
it to feel like, I did my duty.

And I want to basically
feel guilty less often.

I feel like I find my, we've
talked about this before.

I'm constantly feeling guilty.

In this role yeah of startup ceo
and I want to I, I have techniques

to reduce that feeling and I
want to employ them more in 2025.

That one's less measurable, to be honest.

It's more just guilt.

Did I do it?

Incidents.

Yeah.

Maybe I could start
tracking that, but yeah.

There are just days where I, what I, the
feeling I hate is when I end the day.

Okay.

And, and I'm like, okay, I'm ready
to go to the gym or do whatever.

But I just, I feel like
a little bit guilty.

I was like, I didn't really
get that much done today.

Or I just phoned it in I hate that
feeling and I want to reduce the

number of days where I have that
feeling at the end of the day.

Okay.

That does sound measurable actually
to me, if you wanted to measure

that, you could measure that.

Yeah.

Maybe I should, but I hear that.

Yeah.

That's yeah.

That's nice.

Like I think the only solution that I have
today or historically, the only solution

I've had is work, work really hard and
make sure that every day I'm like really

putting it in and like really finding
like top priority things to work on.

And I think there's a balance
between doing that and.

On days where I, okay I
didn't get as much done.

It's but I put in the
effort and I did my part.

It's not that they're, like
forgiving myself, is something

I'm trying to do more.

Yeah.

That's nice.

Yeah.

What about you, Tom?

My intent to be, as I've alluded
to, at least in the past couple of

years, my tendency with resolutions
is I didn't use to set them at all.

Now I do set them, but they're just
very concrete goals that I use it.

They tend to be a little bit
more specific and minute.

They are less like big picture y
maybe than the ones you're describing.

Because I find for me that if
I set big picture resolutions,

they're really hard to fault.

Like they're the kind that I just
abandoned after a little while.

Yeah.

Or put differently, they're the kinds
of things I'm going to work on anyway.

And so I don't need a
resolution necessarily.

So resolutions are specifically for
things where having the small amount

of friction of just like checking in
every week and being like, Hey, did I,

am I following through on that thing?

That's what a resolution is for.

So I always have a resolute.

What that means though,
is that it's very boring.

Cause I set the same ones every year.

I have a resolution to do us
to walk 20, 25 miles a week to.

Read 20 books at least to do
yoga at least twice a week I

need to lose a little weight.

It's all like stuff like that
where it's mostly health related.

I get your philosophy there just, Hey,
I'm gonna, I'm working on the big things

anyways, but these little things are
like what they seem small and silly, but

they're actually like really important.

And I find that setting resolutions for
that kind of thing actually does get

me to do those things in a way that if
I didn't set a resolution and wasn't

paying attention, it would slip more.

Yeah.

Interesting.

Yeah.

Whereas I do the opposite.

I don't set goals for that kind of thing.

Yeah.

So what happens?

Do you hit your goals?

Do you miss your, like I it's a mix.

I don't always hit them.

Like I've had the same, it's a, it's
effectively walked 1300 miles per

gear goal for the last two years.

Last year I was a little short the
year before I was a little over.

But I get pretty close.

I do track it throughout
the whole year so far.

Do you have a forum where, is there
some kind of social pressure you

can put on yourself to hit them?

Are you embarrassed that
you missed your goal, Tom?

Are you sufficiently embarrassed?

I don't that's up to you to determine,
I guess the fact that I am setting

that same resolution again, to me,
is a form of, Okay, nope, it didn't

happen last year for whatever reason,
but we are this year we're gonna do it.

I can do that job for you, Tom.

You want to embarrass me more?

I'm embarrassed by the fact that you're
setting the same resolution again.

Okay.

All right.

Noted.

No, but I'll say I don't think
you're embarrassed enough.

Okay.

Yeah.

You're right.

I'm okay with it.

I'm really not that embarrassed.

Yeah.

I am okay with that.

I guess that's because I think that the
resolutions still did do its job, even

if I didn't get like whatever in the end,
my feeling is that the number is actually

not that important and it definitely made
me more active and that kind of thing.

And that's basically it's doing its job.

So I'd like to do it a little
more this year, but yeah.

Yeah.

Fair enough.

It's been a big year for you.

We don't need to go into the details,
but it's been a big year with, meeting

so and and it just you seem like just
happy and healthy and yeah, it's good

but it's funny cause you're going to
look back like what I basically use.

Resolutions for is to be able to look
back and be like, what happened that year?

Oh, yes The mine are not at all practical.

Yes completely useless for that particular
thing Yes, not at all useful But I guess

I will say we're talking a lot about
our resolutions without connecting it

all to this podcast But I do think this
is actually very this is on there Yeah.

It's deeply related to the,
like the philosophy that we

talk about on this podcast.

And I think some of my lack of
embarrassment at not hitting

these resolutions has to do with

really caring more about the sort
of process that the resolutions

put in place for me than the actual
outcome of those resolutions.

If that makes sense.

That's very high and noble of you,
Tom, I think controlling what you

can control means if you said you
were going to walk 25, 000 miles.

Yeah, it was not 25, 000 miles.

I heard 25, 000.

And you don't do that, then you
clearly, I failed to do the thing

that I, there was one thing you can do
Tom, which is control how much I walk.

Yeah.

You can't control the forces around you.

Yes.

That's true.

The reason that I, that it doesn't
happen is not really because I

chose not to do it in the moment.

It's more like other stuff comes
up in my life that prevents it

from happening one way or another.

Yeah, so I think I try to approach
the resolutions from the if just

like having this around and trying
Reasonably hard to follow it leads

to a better outcome in my life.

Then that's a good resolution and Freaking
out like I could I did consider I guess

I will say maybe this will placate you in
terms of my degree of embarrassment Yeah

going into the last week of this year.

I was like You meditated like crazy.

I was 90 miles short And I, so I normally
walk about 20, 25 miles per week.

So I'm, I'm like, I'm pretty
significantly short there.

It's, but I did think about at least
briefly entertain the possibility.

Okay.

What if every day for the last
week of the year, I walk like.

Yeah.

13 mile, go on some, run a half marathon
effectively every day for a week.

Yeah.

That's awesome.

Then I would have gotten there.

And I considered that and then I decided.

So it's a serious goal.

Yeah.

Yes.

I can, I decided that was not worth it.

Yeah.

It's a lot of, obviously this
is, this should be said like

25 five miles a day is a lot.

It's not five miles a day.

It's three and a half.

Yeah.

I guess I'm okay.

We can stop belaboring
this particular resolution.

The thing that I'm actually proud of,
or the way that resolution mattered more

this year is that we did transition to
being like a remote first company this

year, which way changed for me the, like
the nature of how I get those miles.

So I'm actually, even though I didn't
quite get to the goal, I'm actually pretty

pleased with having kept it as close
to the prior year when I was commuting

to the office every day as I did.

Okay, that makes sense.

What would Marcus's goals be?

Vague and yeah, like

He would do it more like
You, I think, to be honest.

What do you know?

No.

Cause mine are specific.

My, mine are like actually interpretable.

His would be like, you know, act in
accordance with my capital N nature.

Not about think about my death and
the length of my time on earth,

yeah, we're basically reading them.

I think most of the, these
are resolutions, effectively,

that we're reading, I think.

Not all of them, but a lot of them
basically take the form of resolutions.

Yeah.

His third resolution would be, Dig deeper,
the water, goodness, is down there.

Yes, yeah.

I do think, yes, dig deeper seems
like exactly the kind of thing

that he might set as a resolution.

That with that degree of specificity.

Oh my god, you're right.

We are reading his resolutions.

To love only what
happens, what is destined.

No greater harmony.

These are just.

Yeah.

Yes, totally.

I guess so.

So worth pointing out then that he, as
far as we can tell, is someone who spends.

Every night goes home.

Like we do this thing once a year, right?

Or whatever.

We set these resolutions.

His thing is to do it every day.

More resolutions.

Pile them on.

Big filled book with them.

Keep adding more.

Seems a little much.

Tom, the other thing I do, which we, maybe
I would be curious what yours would be.

So we come up with a word that
defines the year each year.

So last year it was new chapter.

We moved out of San Francisco.

We went remote first.

We want to find a new place to live.

New chapter.

The pedant in me.

Stop Tom.

I can't help point out.

Yes.

You little point Dexter.

This year the word, my
word is tranquility.

Which is one word, Tom.

Okay, good job.

Thank you.

And that reflects the, some of the
changes I want to make in my life, and

some of the harmony that I want to build.

Think about what your one word would be.

So just to make sure I'm understanding
the assignment, the word has

to do with the coming year.

It's like you're setting an
intention for the coming year.

You're setting, like when you're setting
a thing that you, That will, if you had

to name the chapter, yes, that is 2025.

What would the name of that chapter?

What would the name of that chapter be?

Okay, cool.

I'm not going to do that
live on the podcast.

Cause I want to, I think that's, I
think that's a worthwhile exercise that

I think it's going to take me more.

It would not be fun for the listener
to listen to me, sit here and go,

25, 000 is going to be your word.

But I like that idea and I like it.

Yes, as a way of, as I say, setting,
like setting an intention for the year in

that succinct way seems very cool to me.

So I will Aparna do this?

Good question.

I should ask her.

I don't know.

Yeah.

I dig it though.

I like the idea.

I will think about that.

Maybe on the next episode of the podcast I
can reveal what my word for 2025 will be.

If it's personal, whatever, but
no, I'm, I don't think it's going

to be too personal to share.

I'm pretty happy with that.

I just want to pick a, I guess I'm a
sufficient word nerd that I don't want

to just spit a word out right now.

I want to spend some time picking that.

Tom's going to come back after all his
thought and he's going to say, walk lots.

Yeah.

Something just absolutely
unintelligible that you have to

get a dictionary out to look up.

Yeah.

Yeah that'll be fun.

That's a fun project for me.

Come up with an obscure word.

No, not just totally
misunderstood the assignment.

No.

Yeah.

I think I'll come up with
something really obscure.

All right.

Thanks.

Yeah.

Thanks for telling me to do that, Paul.

Great.

All right.

Can we do some meditations?

Yeah.

Shall we?

Okay.

Yes.

I know we're joking about book seven never
ending, but we're actually pretty close.

I think we have 15, 16 entries left here.

Yeah let's read some of them.

Probably won't get there today, but maybe
in a couple entry number 60 in book 7.

What the body needs is stability.

To be impervious to jolts
in all it is and does.

The cohesiveness and beauty that
intelligence lends to the face.

That's what the body needs.

But it should come without effort.

The body that the more talk
about the body that I'm used to.

Yeah.

What does he mean by the body?

I'm not sure yet.

Okay.

I guess I have, I'm not sure if he means
literally if he's talking about like our

health in some way when he says the body.

I think that's when one interpretation
that comes to mind for me is that he

is really talking about he's talking
about, yes, our actual physical bodies,

but another interpretation of that is
more like what you need as a person.

Yeah.

I think the latter makes sense because his
example his, the detail we get is that.

Yeah.

Intelligence makes your face look good.

So and cohesive, which is
what you want in a face

You don't want to like
open Worrying about yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, just randomly thrown together
Okay, so so what's So you want,

and a pretty face is stable.

I think that's the connection here.

Okay.

Here's how I'm parsing that.

He really likes people who can be met
with some sort of like bad circumstances

and they're very in control of their
reaction to those circumstances.

I think we're in that
neighborhood of Marcus entry here.

So I think He's saying I feel like
he's talking about people he idolizes

in the past, who like, you would give
them some kind of bad news, and they

wouldn't freak out at all, they would
be extremely, calm and stoic, and just

because they're so intelligent, they would
just be totally impervious to this thing,

and they'd just be like we'll just do
this, and he's The mind is a stabilizing

force on the body, in that sense.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

Yes.

Makes sense.

Yeah, that's a nice, that's
a nice way of saying it.

And so I think, but I think he's basically
saying that is a physical manifestation

of a thing that we should all hope for to
be true for us on a bigger, deeper level.

Yeah.

Where it's not just that the face, I
think that's what he means by this last

sentence, it should come without effort.

There's an effortful
version of this where.

You go to the gym.

Oh, I was interpreting it as
you are presented with bad news.

Huh.

And you do this thing where you
really tightly control what's going

on with your face because inside
you're screaming or whatever.

But you just poker face it.

I think he's saying ideally
it's, you get to a state where

you don't have to do that.

Where you truly are so impervious
that you Yeah, that makes sense.

I think that's exactly what he the
more I was listening to you explain it.

I think that's exactly what he meant.

Body is still a funky word.

It's a funky word for us but I
do think that's what he means.

He just means like our physical
corporeal self has all these

urges and tendencies and we, we
need to force stability onto it.

Hey Tom, I have a sidebar.

Yes.

This idea that you can tell how
smart someone is based on their face.

You buy it.

No, not at all.

You think so?

I've heard, no, so I've heard this
from people throughout my life.

There's, people just They're like,
oh, you can tell it's a, this person

has a really intelligent face.

You sometimes hear people
say that about babies.

Oh, really?

I've never heard that.

Oh, people like look at babies.

I'm like, he has a very wise
face or something like that.

Anyway, sorry, I don't have to do that.

No, but

Yeah, so you don't believe this.

I get that.

The right thing to say
is no, of course not.

But does that feel borne out
to you really in your life?

Like you meet people and you look
at their face and you're like,

that guy's going to be smart.

That doesn't feel true to me, really.

It borders on mean.

I feel like it's a mean converse.

Yeah.

I think if anything, probably,
it works the other way, where we

are biological creatures who are
predisposed to like particular faces.

And not more so than others.

And then we call those people smart
because we're already predisposed

to liking them, basically.

So it's like we get attractive people,
the benefit of the doubt, or whatever.

That's a really good point.

Yeah.

I think there are a lot of social
signals in the way someone portrays them,

like it carries themselves that, that.

Can be pretty easily tied to
whatever, competence or intelligence,

but I, I don't think that's just
like what your face looks like.

Yes.

I think there are some very, like I am
someone for instance, who has cultivated

a whole personal look for a long time that
was very like professorial or whatever.

And that is like explicitly trying
to do the thing you're describing.

Sure.

And I think, we're both
wearing glasses on this call.

We get that.

We, that is.

We know for sure there are ways
of presenting yourself that lend

people to think oh, maybe this
person is smart or whatever Yeah,

so really what you're perceiving
is how much does this person want?

Yeah to be perceived
as intelligent, right?

Yes, which might bespeak?

What usually is security?

Yeah It's generally correlated yeah Yes.

Yeah, I agree.

I think that part is readily perceivable,
but yes, I think this is a place where,

yes, there's some distance between us
and Marcus, maybe because he has his

whole concept that like intelligence
lends beauty to your face is something

that is hard for us, I think, to wrap
our, I, I guess I admire that in a

way where if you really felt like.

Yeah, just by nature, just by, by
the merit of being very intelligent,

your face gets more beautiful.

That's not really a concept that
we have in the modern day, but

it speaks to a different concept
of beauty than the one we have.

That's an interesting one.

Yeah.

I like it.

It's it's a beauty you
can control more easily.

Yeah.

We'll just buy, read some
books, get, get prettier.

Yeah.

I guess that's, is that easier
than doing some makeup, I

suppose for some of us it is.

Yeah.

Interesting.

I, so half the people on this island
of Hawaii, when they meet me ask if

which division of the military I'm in.

Oh, interesting.

So that's what my face says to them.

Is that just because white guy?

I think white guy who looks
young, yeah, must be military.

I say that's interesting.

I would not have guessed that.

It makes sense.

I would have thought maybe
with a post pandemic.

I feel like maybe the bowl would be mixed
enough that there'd be other people.

We're in a kind of a
post RTO world right now.

Yeah.

People are pretty much every
company is returned to office.

We're a very unique keeper.

Yeah, to be fully remote, but yeah,

all okay, number 61 not a dancer
But a wrestler waiting poised

and dug in for sudden assaults.

All right, this is speaking of the
military mindsets and Being accused of it.

This one sounds very direct,

When people say that stoicism is a
philosophy for military men, this

one feels like a philosophy, a very
literal thing for military men.

We're to pick on dancers, but yes.

Yeah.

What's so what?

Yeah.

So what is different about a dancer?

A dancer is performing a dance.

They have a plan.

A dancer has a plan and it's proactive.

Whereas a wrestler is reactive.

Is that true?

Wrestlers are both wrestlers in a
wrestling match or being reactive?

I guess more yeah.

Yeah.

Poised and dug in for sudden assaults.

Yeah.

Okay.

So it's.

I like it, although it's a very

I wonder how literal he's being,
with the word assault, because

it feels, it's a very kind of
pessimistic it's very pessimistic.

Yeah.

It's just the world is going to
try to wrestle you to the ground

and your job is to fight back.

It's a very kind of nihilistic or
something way of thinking about life.

Yeah.

But I guess I dig the concept of yeah.

Just being prepared for bad
things to come your way and

ready to quickly dispatch them.

He's, we've heard stuff
like this before, right?

I feel like he's, he likes wrestlers.

Is that one of his things?

He likes wrestlers.

Yeah.

He's a big wrestler fan.

I feel like he's, mostly any
kind of entertainment or fun

seems to be beneath Marcus.

Yeah.

But wrestling seems to be one where, yeah.

Maybe there's something about
it that, that appeals to him.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think I'm, I've noticed the
same things you're talking about here.

It's that

approaching life as a as a way, like by
approaching life, waiting, poised and

dug in, you're missing out on stuff.

A dancer has a plan.

They have a performance and
they've practiced it and.

Sure, things can go wrong, but they're
going to try to execute on the plan.

Whereas if you're just waiting and dug in
for sudden assaults, like that's, it's a

way to live, but yeah, it's interesting.

Yeah, there's also yeah, a dancer
is not really interested in winning

per se, but a wrestler is like the
true point of wrestling is zero sum.

Yes, it's about winning at the end.

Yeah, which is not a way that I want.

I guess in some ways like I could have
seen this entry be a dancer, not a

wrestler, control your own destiny, and
rather than worrying about other people.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's interesting.

Okay.

Yeah.

So what?

What is it about dancers specifically?

He's implying that they would be
unprepared for a sudden assault.

Yes, so if something goes wrong during
their dance routine, he is implying

that a dancer would be unprepared for
that, which I think is probably fair.

I think most, yeah dance training
does not necessarily involve a

huge amount of contingency plans
and robustness to disaster.

Yeah.

Thanks, Marcus.

Yeah, all right.

Number 62.

Look at who they really are, the
people whose approval you long for,

and what their minds are really like.

Then you won't blame the ones who
make mistakes they can't help, and you

won't feel a need for their approval.

You will have seen the sources of both,
their judgments and their actions.

This speaks to me.

Yeah, I do think that, yeah, I do
think that there is such a thing as

an unhealthy kind of assumption that
other people are, have things figured

out and and then that can lead to.

That outcomes or like unhappiness.

So it's good to be realistic of like
people are people and Yeah, I think

it's also like liberating in many ways.

It's like healthier to just realize that.

Is that how you read it?

Yeah I'm very curious who the
people who's approved approval

Marcus still longs for right region.

I guess or yeah He was really
Pro Trajan in the first chapter,

he like idolized him fully.

Although he said some select things
about just the positives and maybe yes.

Didn't mention the negatives.

Yeah.

Is that, like we've established
that he's writing this book

in his like fifties, right?

Yeah.

That's interesting that he still
is to me is still feeling that.

Yeah.

That feeling.

Of really longing for the approval
of his teachers or whatever.

I think he is actually, I think
that's one of the keys to Marcus.

I think he's super into authority and
his predecessors and other emperors and

like whatever grew up, looking at his
ancestors on the walls type of thing.

Yeah, I think you're right.

But this is him putting, trying to put a
little distance between himself and that.

Yeah.

But I also think it's, I, the first time
I was reading this entry, I was like,

it took me a second to understand the
sort of connection between the first

sentence and the second one, because
he goes from basically talking about

the people whose approval he wants to
the people who annoy him all the time.

Sure.

Yeah, and he's saying that if you
can put distance between the people

you and the people whose approval you
want by saying And they're just human.

They're not perfect that will also help
you be sympathetic To the folks who

are constantly screwing up and you have
to clean up their mess or whatever.

That's how I'm reading it Oh I
actually thought he was talking

about the same group of people
and you won't blame the ones.

Oh, yeah, they can't help
Yeah, okay, you're right.

You're right.

I misread it.

That you won't want, you won't
feel a need for their approval.

It would be a more complicated sentiment.

If it's what you're saying, then
yes, I think people who you long for

approval from and then the idiots.

Yeah, no, I think you think about the
idiots Then you won't want their approval.

Yes.

So yeah, sometimes, okay, sometimes
when I'm reading this, I can't.

I confuse myself.

No, I think you're right.

I think he is just talking
about the same people.

He's just talking about
Trajan or whoever else.

So the second sentence is
about, he says, you won't blame

the ones who make mistakes.

They can't help.

And you won't feel a
need for their approval.

Help me with that last part, like
he's saying, okay, so you look at

these, you look at Trajan, this
guy who I idolize and presumably in

looking at that, I re I see some of.

I'm looking at him.

I see some of his humanity.

I see that he the way I interpret it
is like Marcus really big on Trajan.

Trajan believed in him
as a kid or whatever.

And then towards his, as he was
getting older, he became more senile.

And the last thing Trajan said
to him before he died was Marcus

your hair, your haircut looks bad.

And Marcus was really upset about it,
and he's Oh, shoot, I've been wearing

the wrong haircut all these years.

But then he realizes actually Trajan's
kind of an idiot, or whatever.

Or he makes mistakes too, and he
didn't think about the impact that

stigma would have, or whatever.

And and then I don't feel
the need for his approval.

I think that's, it's something like
that, is what I was Yeah, okay.

Got it.

And so calling Marcus's haircut bad
was a mistake that could not help.

Yes, it's that just the nature of Trajan's
mind was to make a mistake such as that.

Okay, yeah, that's a weird example.

And he can't be blamed.

I'm being sarcastic, but I think I
agree with you that the point, Or the

thing I'm a little bit hung up on is
he seems to be saying, Look closely

at your idols, notice that they
make mistakes, but he simultaneously

seems to be wanting to be more and
less generous to them as a result.

In some ways, the point is to
see that they've made mistakes

because it demystifies them and
makes them human, and then you

won't need their approval as much.

But also, it will reduce the amount
you blame them, which seems like being

More generous to them rather than which
yeah, that's a good point So yeah, I

think you're calling out a little bit
of a paradox, which I think is actually

true Which is this weird thing where
if you recognize the humanity and

other people you simultaneously respect
them more for pushing through Yeah.

Those, difficulties and you
seek their approval less.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yes.

I think that's a nice way of just cool.

Yes.

I think that's the best
way to be in every way.

Like you're just kinder.

Yes.

So everyone, them and you.

Yes.

I dig that.

I think, and I think that, the thing
that cements that for me, I guess

is the last sentence about you will
have seen the sources of both their

judgments and their actions feels like
very much like what you're describing.

Yeah.

It's nice.

Yeah, cool.

Yeah, I like that.

I think that was the thing that I
was hung up on that led to my initial

tortured reading, but I think you're
right, I think the point is that

there's a bit of a paradox there that
just is is what he's articulating.

Yeah.

Yeah, no, I, yeah, I dig that.

Okay, number 63.

In quotes, Against our will, our
souls are cut off from truth.

End quote.

Truth, yes and justice,
self control, kindness.

Important to keep this in mind.

It will make you more
patient with other people.

Okay.

Nice.

It's humility.

I read this as just be humble.

You don't actually have a
direct connection to truth.

You, it's Plato's cave.

All you can see is the shadows
and you don't really know

what's causing the shadows.

Yeah.

That's nice.

Yeah.

And his point is it seems like the
original thing that was in quotes

is probably from some other source.

And his point is even that understates
how cut off we are from all the things

that we want to be connected to.

So humans.

So I read that in, in very
big picture sets is like,

people want all these things.

There are all these
virtues that they want to.

Yeah.

Be in contact with, but they're
unfortunately cut off from every

single one of them in a meaningful way.

So they are doing their best to
make it really nice sentiment.

I think.

Yeah.

I imagine him like having two
books open his own notebook

and some philosophical texts.

Nice.

And he's like quoting the
philosophical texts and just,

expanding on it, responding to it.

Yeah.

He's doing.

Annotation from our English school or our
high school English days where you have

a paperback copy of a book and you have
to write in the margins in response to

the thing that is going on in the text.

In the text, you remember speaking
of that, you remember in high

school and stuff where we would get
graded on, did we annotate the book?

That was like the way that
like, I don't know if they were

enforcing whether or not we read.

So I would just not read and just like
really quickly go through every third

page, like circle something really
big and write something next to it.

Yeah.

Speaking of measurable resolutions.

Yeah.

This is not a good one.

Yes.

Because I also remember that
being like, you have to Yes.

The teacher would come around and you
have to riffle through the pages of

your and they'd like, look through
your pages and see if there were

pencil marks on them or whatever.

I was really good.

I would just write wow.

And I would just like underline
something and write wow in the margins.

That's the other thing.

It's like the standard.

There was no grading of the
quality of the annotation.

So like it could just be
like, yeah, cool, nice.

Yeah.

It'd be like, wow.

And then why?

Those are, I think were the go tos.

Why?

Why is a good one.

Yes.

Yeah.

It's funny.

I think in some ways, English class when
Paul and I had several English classes,

I think together in in high school it
wasn't always our favorite thing, or at

least it wasn't always my favorite thing.

But now this podcast we
do is it's English class.

It's, it, it seems so far off
of a leisure activity back then.

Yes.

It was like, why would I ever do, this
is the most contrived, stupid thing.

Like I don't care about
this text but here we are.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah.

15 years later.

Yeah.

So I guess, thank you,
Blake English teachers.

Yeah.

I dig it too.

It is one of those interesting
things where, yeah, I think it's

the appeal of some coursework
in high school was obvious.

Yeah.

In the moment to me.

Yeah.

And that, that one wasn't and
it was work, but I'm glad I

get to read the benefits now.

Put.

64.

For times when you feel pain,
see that it doesn't disgrace you

or degrade your intelligence.

Doesn't keep it from acting
rationally or unselfishly.

And in most cases, what
Epicurus said should help.

That pain is neither unbearable
nor unending, as long as you

keep in mind its limits and don't
magnify them in your imagination.

And keep in mind too that pain
often comes in disguise, as

drowsiness, fever, loss of appetite.

When you're bothered by things like that,
remind yourself, I'm giving in to pain.

It's very

I, I, it's inspirational, I think
is my initial reaction to it.

I think it's so easy to say
this, but to me, this reads as

okay he really does understand.

He's not just saying it.

I think he's living it.

Like there, this concept, like when
you're in that moment of pain or

frustration or anger, whatever,
realizing that it's temporary.

Yeah, and that it can't actually
hurt you and has limits as long

as you don't magnify them in your
imagination like that's really

Cool and powerful and I don't know.

I guess it's something that I, it's
really speaks to one, one, one resolution.

I didn't mention is that I've noticed
that myself that I just, I have this

tendency towards anger or frustration
in times that are, that I shouldn't be.

And so it's for me, the way to that, that
I'm trying to deal with that is just a

recognition that this is, it is just.

I am currently feeling this way
and yeah, it will pass and it's

not, it's not here forever.

It's like in a, remember how this
happened two weeks ago and then

it passed, that will happen again.

Like just that is so powerful.

Yes.

And then, and yeah, and then that's that
last section where he's keep in mind that

it comes in disguise as drowsiness as.

I don't know if I'm aware when I'm
angry or in pain or whatever, but I

do let myself give in, if you will.

By doing these actions.

I don't know about fever
and loss of appetite.

That's pretty intense, but
more like vegetation and

and snappiness or something.

Yeah.

Yes.

I agree with everything you just said.

I really liked the thing you just said
about, responding to unpleasant emotions.

I think the thing you said could go
beyond just anger and frustration too,

that it can also apply to loneliness and
other like tons of negative emotions.

I really, yes, I really, that,
that way of approaching dealing

with them really resonates for me.

And I agree the to me, the second
paragraph here is the one that I like

is the heart of the thing that the, what
Epicure has said should help the pain

is either unbearable or unending the The
first one is also cool and it's very hard

to do where he says, see that pain doesn't
disgrace you or degrade your intelligence.

Both of both those things are about
like operating at this incredibly

high level where you really, it's.

That's what I mean by inspirational, I
guess is like it is if you can really

do the thing that Marcus is describing
here Yeah, you are like, yeah, that is

some of the highest order things that
humans can do I think right to abstract

yourself to basically step out of
yourself be like ha look I'm in pain Yes.

And, but that doesn't change.

That doesn't make me, that
doesn't degrade me or disgrace me.

Yeah.

That's still going to be totally clear
eyed and make the right decisions even

though I'm pissed off or what, something
totally bullshit is happening to me.

That's actually, that's a good point.

Yeah.

Because yeah that's hard to do.

Yeah.

This is getting a little personal,
but I like, I do get this is just

something I think it's actually
partially testosterone driven.

Men like it.

I think men, this happens more often
with men where you just, I just get.

Yeah.

Angry sometimes.

For sure.

Yeah.

And there's a, there's like level one
or whatever is like, Hey, I get angry.

Notice it.

Okay.

I got angry.

Level two is okay, stop it.

Stop it.

Like it's going to be fine.

Chill out.

Yeah.

Level three is look, it's
kind of part of, my shtick.

Yeah.

And it helps me get certain things
done and, and then of course I

need to control it, but it's okay.

If you forgive yourself for that
cause that frustration can also lead

to like incredible productivity and
like fixing things that need to be

fixed as long as I can control it.

Yeah.

Yes.

I agree with that.

Yeah.

So that's that requires number one,
quite a bit too, though, if you can.

Yes.

Experience negative emotions,
realize that they're happening.

Yeah.

Say this is happening right now.

Maybe I can do something
productive with this.

Yeah.

But it really requires that your concept
of what's productive in that moment

is actually a good productive thing
and not just the thing you're doing

because you're angry or sad or whatever.

I yeah.

A little confession moment.

I hired a guy off Craigslist when I moved
out of San Francisco to help me move.

His job is just be my buddy for
four hours at, 30 bucks an hour

and just help me carry stuff.

Yeah.

And I was driving around, we were donating
stuff to Goodwill and he was in the car.

And I was just, I was like, I was
in my regular annoyed, like, Why

is everyone driving so slowly?

Like, why won't these goodwill
people take this thing?

But they will take that other thing.

And his comment to me was,
oh man, you're an angry guy.

Whoa.

And I think he, I don't think
he was jabbing or whatever.

I think he was just genuinely
wow, you're an angry guy.

A stranger perceive you that way.

And that was like, that was like mind
blowing to me, or not mind blowing,

but like really grounding for me
to realize that this is what he.

Yeah.

Wow.

You see that in me, Tom?

I don't think I show that
side of me as much around you.

I'm aware that you like, I do too,
so I don't, you get that way too.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

I don't perceive you.

Obviously, I don't perceive you as
an angry guy as like a defining thing

about you But yeah, I think a certain
amount of connection I and I guess

to the thing you're saying earlier.

I think that can be good Yeah in some
ways like I don't think you know, I

think there's a lot of Justifiably,
there's a lot of negativity around

people who are angry because they can
be very destructive and Uncomfortable

to be around but harnessed correctly.

I don't think that's a bad
thing at all, necessarily.

But yes, wow, that is a very eye opening
thing to, to have it stated that plainly.

It's such a like, first
grader way of saying it, too.

The way I said it to you.

It's such as such a
simple English sentence.

Just, you are an angry guy.

Yeah, that's true, actually.

But I, no, I think you In the moment,
I think I understand why you said it.

I was like, I was, I, I was in
the situation where these guys

at Goodwill took most of my
furniture, but not all of it.

And I was just like, you guys, I'm
donating like really great furniture,

just take this other shelf, please.

Yes, I get that it's slightly
dinged, but fucking take it.

What am I supposed to do with this?

And I was like, and they,
and I have no power.

I have no leverage in that situation.

And I was just like, I need
to speak to your manager.

Like I did the whole thing
that you know, whatever.

And it made me all flustered and upset
and, and I think he was reacting to that.

Yeah, I say did that I guess did that
change anything for you after you

had that interaction with that guy?

Do you feel like you've had a
change your relationship with anger?

I think it's mostly building awareness
and then yeah setting it as a new year's

resolution this year To just be more aware
of it and what's this is almost kind of

cliche it really helps Breathing deeply.

Yeah, it's amazing.

Yeah, it's actually incredible.

Yeah, I dig that.

Anyway, thanks for the yeah, totally.

I guess I will say the one last thing
that I like about this, or that I think is

interesting is that this last bit he says
that About pain coming in disguise, right?

And then he says as drowsiness fever
and loss of appetite Oh that part is

like harder for me to follow because
those really yeah, just sound like

symptoms of an illness But I like the
bigger idea if we just set aside his

specific examples that like I mean What
we've entered he's talking about pain.

We've turned that into anger, right?

That's us implicitly agreeing with him
here that like Anger is actually like

some kind of manifestation of pain.

And so that I think yes, part
of this, his point is basically

your thing about awareness.

That if you're acting weird in
some way and his examples of acting

weird or bad, but if you're If you
can tell you're not yourself be

aware of that and think about why.

Is I think also really
nice advice that I see.

So the idea that everything springs
from there's this thing behind

this under the hood, which is pain.

And then all these manifestations of it,
like including frustration or whatever.

Are just that manifestations.

Yeah.

Okay.

And so the awareness you're describing
for trying to be aware of when you're

having anger reactions to stuff can
be this really transcendent form of

awareness where almost anything you
notice about yourself, you can afford

yourself the same degree of awareness
about I'm doing this thing, right?

Yeah.

Why is that happening?

And.

Yes get some of the same benefit, I think.

Reminds me of people, it's hey,
this bully is just being this

way because of pain, right?

Yes, yeah.

Yeah, although yes, this it is an example
of things speaking of comparing to our

high school English class selves like
this It's the kind of this is the kind

of advice that is almost impossible I
feel like to follow as a young person

because the rate of change of what's
going on in your life and just like

You're the extent to which you even know
what the like baseline normal you right

is right so limited That I feel like
this kind of awareness is not possible.

So this is a, I'm just having the
feeling that this is a distinctly adult

pleasure that Marcus is describing
here because I don't think it's

possible to really even be like, Hey,
I'm acting weird or have that kind

of awareness about anger as much.

That's a good point.

Yeah.

Just a thought that I guess I'm another
way in which English class was not for

the time that we were in English class.

It was for helping us understand.

Yeah.

Exactly.

There were a bunch of things like that
in our childhood that I'm realizing now,

like a lot of the advice that we were,
that, parents gave us and stuff too,

which is made sense for them at the time.

And we're like completely mistimed, like
eating healthy, going to the gym, like

you don't actually need those things.

It's okay.

You'll be fine.

Yes.

But it's interesting, but I guess
it's still worth giving that to

people because It's annoying in the
moment, but they'll remember it later.

Yeah, that is interesting.

I was thinking about that too recently
with like this, the whole stupid game

with like college extracurriculars that
that people have to participate in.

Like in some ways, they're high school
students do them because they're

just inherently fun things to do.

But for a lot of high school
students, they're asked to do more

extracurriculars than they probably would.

Do of their own volition if there wasn't
this whole college game going on, right?

And so it's like why do we do that?

And at some level it's just because
we're playing a dumb game to get

into college Or whatever, but it's
like why do colleges want that?

Yeah And I think it's something
like what you're describing where

the idea is that having done stuff
outside of school will make you a

richer adult in some Meaningful.

Yeah way that probably doesn't
pay off Until much later.

Interesting.

Number 65.

Take care that you don't treat inhumanity.

As it treats human beings.

Oh boy.

Take care that you don't treat
inhumanity as it treats human beings.

Very nice kind of what is it called?

Symmetrical statement.

Yes, yeah.

The golden, the opposite of
the golden rule, yeah, exactly.

That's true, actually.

Yeah.

Yeah, the inverse of the golden rule.

But it's because the thing that's
being treated is not a human being.

I like this.

I'm interpreting this
as, the world is mean.

If the world is a big lumbering
thing that hurts people because it's

massive and they just get in its way.

I see.

You could say, Hey, I love human beings.

Quit doing that world.

You're the worst.

You suck.

I hate you.

And he's saying, that would be a very,
that's a very golden rule ish thing to

do to say the world is being mean to me.

Yeah, I don't like it.

It's the it sucks, but I think he's saying
actually you should love the world Anyway,

even though it does all this bad stuff.

Yeah.

That's great.

That's great This is what I keep saying.

This is what I love about Marcus.

He's not saying nothing matters,
Yeah, like he's saying love it.

Anyway, yes.

Yeah, which is awesome Yeah, or
and maybe love it anyway as I was

putting words in his mouth a little
bit He's really just saying sure.

That's right.

Don't be super mean or at least that's
how I parse it like yeah Neutrality is

still like a possible option here as well.

Just don't let your anger at fate and
the world Yeah, make you treat it badly.

But yes, I agree.

That means that it to me that means live
your life with faith that the world has

good stuff in it and it's worth living.

What I like here is that he could
have said, take care of that.

You don't treat people that act inhumanly.

Yes.

Inhumanly.

He says he, he abstracts the concept
of inhumanity, which is even better

because it's it's not even about
the person who, who did that.

Yes, it could be the world doing
something to you, but it could also be

like, someone who, yeah, a bully don't,
I guess don't bully a bully is the, or

don't, no, not even don't bully a bully.

Hates the fact that bull, bullies exists.

Yeah, that's part of the world.

Yeah.

Yeah, just a pretty meta concepts.

Yes, I really, yes, I really like
the point you just made about yes,

he's talking about the concept of
how we treat X is usually about

how we treat other humans or treat
whatever other living things.

And he's doing this really
cool thing where he says, okay,

how do we treat inhumanity?

In general now, and yes, I think he's
got a very interesting perspective

on what that treatment should be.

Yes.

I totally agree with your point.

It's much more interesting to talk about
how to treat inhumanity as a concept.

Cool.

Inverse of gold is what?

Lead?

Is that the inverse?

I don't know.

Like hydrogen?

Hydrogen.

Yeah, there you go.

That's true actually.

Lead is right next to it.

Yeah.

Hydrogen.

The hydrogen rule.

Hydrogen rule.

Yeah.

I don't know.

It's not that catchy.

We should work on that.

Lead also appeals.

The empty handed rule.

Yeah.

The opposite of having
gold is having nothing.

Anti gold rule.

Yeah.

Okay.

Number 66.

Oh, okay.

This is gonna have a name that
I don't know who this is and I'm

gonna do my best to pronounce it.

Good luck.

This is why you do the reading, not me.

Boy, okay check this out,
because no one can know whether

or not I'm right or wrong.

How do we know that Telegese
wasn't a better man than Socrates?

It's not enough to ask whether Socrates
death was nobler, whether he debated

with the sophists more adeptly, whether
he showed greater endurance by spending

the night out in the cold, and when
he was ordered to arrest the man from

Salamis, decided it was preferable to
refuse, and swaggered about the streets,

which one could reasonably doubt.

What matters is what kind of soul he had.

Whether he was satisfied to treat men
with justice, and the gods with reverence,

and didn't lose his temper unpredictably
at evil done by others, didn't make

himself the slave of other people's
ignorance, didn't treat anything that

nature did as abnormal, or put up with
it as an unbearable imposition, didn't

put his mind in his body's keeping.

Interesting.

Love.

The list at the end is cool.

I like that.

The end is great actually.

Yes.

I really like all of it.

That could be like a personal
creed of some kind to do.

If you can live up to just
that list of things at the end,

you're doing a pretty good job.

I really didn't put his mind in his body's
keeping is a lovely way of phrasing that.

Yeah.

It really is.

And didn't treat anything that
nature did as abnormal or put up

with it as an unbearable imposition
is a really nice balancing act too.

Okay, but what's, let's talk about
telegies and Socrates for a second.

Because I don't know.

It feels tacked on.

These are two separate concepts, like a
list of things that make you virtuous.

And which one's better,
Telegeese or Socrates?

Yes, the, there's the one sentence of
connection between the two, which is just

if we're going to decide who's better, we
have to decide what kind of soul he had.

And then how do we do that?

But yes, I agree.

Two separate entries.

There's something going on here.

He's basically, I, my
interpretation is he's saying that

It's folly to compare two people, two men,
and because it doesn't matter, it's not

enough to ask yourself, is Socrates noble?

Yeah.

What matters is what kind of soul
Telegy's had is how I'm reading it.

So I almost, is that how you read it?

Who cares?

Yeah.

What the place where I feel a little
uncertain with this, and I'm curious to

get your thought is sometimes Marcus gives
us advice that's like about looking into

people's souls basically where he's Think
you know We just had one earlier this

session about look at the souls of the
people who you really admire Or whatever

and then that'll help you both understand
the better and want their approval less

He thinks that's possible to do That
you can just look at someone and

then see what their soul is like.

Because part of the point of this entry
to me is I don't know who Telegis is,

but I'm assuming because of the way he's
phrased the question, how do we know that

Telegis wasn't a better man than Socrates?

I'm assuming Telegis maybe was
like, I don't know involved in

Socrates's death or something.

Anti hero.

Yes, exactly.

Like he was the criminal or something
that somehow led to Socrates's death.

And so he's asking what I'm assuming
is like a sort of rhetorical question

that initially everybody would have
the reaction of obviously Socrates was.

Right.

There's a nice.

Yeah.

Sorry.

Go ahead.

So I think the.

Yeah.

I agree with the point of the thing he's
saying in the first paragraph, which is

okay, so on the surface, Socrates has done
all this stuff that we would recognize as.

Yeah.

Good and attractive, whatever.

Yeah.

Great debater.

Noble spirit, et cetera, et cetera.

Nice face.

But then it's, his point seems to be, to
me, that's insufficient and it turns out

that like the very limited perspective
of, that we get to see for other, Yeah.

People's actions are just the tip of
the iceberg in terms of what their

actual, the contents of their soul.

Certainly the fables are
the tip of the iceberg.

Like maybe if you spend a bunch of
time with someone, you can get to know

their soul, but like those stories,
the death was nobler or whatever.

Those are not sufficient.

Yeah.

Yes.

Okay.

So I think that's a good, you're making
a good point there, which is maybe

Marcus might rightly think that it's not
possible to perceive someone's souls just

through the stories that are told about
them, but you might perceive it through

really spending time with those people.

I'm, my initial reading was
something closer to, it's impossible

to know other people's souls.

Yeah.

I think that's the, I'd like
to give Marcus that benefit of

the doubt that he's implying.

That these are not things he can know.

Yes.

I hope that's true.

Yeah, that, that's one where I'm not
sure I'm not necessarily offended

if he thinks it is possible to
know through really careful study

what other people's souls are.

I think that's a legitimate opinion
as well from my perspective.

It's interesting that he seems to not
want to come down to an answer here.

He's which maybe lends
towards him thinking that

it's just impossible to know.

But then again, he didn't
know these people, yeah.

Yeah.

So even if the answer is through
barely careful study, the point is

he didn't do that careful study.

And he's just listing
abstract things that matter.

But he's, which means that he's
leaving it in the state of a question.

Like we don't know.

Here's how we would go about
deciding if we had, if we could,

if we could know these things,
which is a cool statement, right?

If we, if what you're saying is
right, which is that telegies is like

the antihero here, then he's making
this cool statement about who knows?

Yeah, I agree.

I don't know what to make of.

When we're listing the cool things
that Socrates did that he swaggered

about the streets, which is in quotes
and then he has a parenthetical,

which one could reasonably doubt.

I don't know what were that supposed
to make us feel about Socrates.

That is that.

Yeah, he refused to arrest someone and
instead he swaggered about the streets.

Yes, I'm not sure if those are connected.

The nature of the list makes it
hard to know if those things are

connected to each other or not.

It could be that he, yes, declined to
arrest someone and instead marched around

the streets of Salamis or whatever.

Yeah, or they could just be two
unconnected things that he did.

Yeah, he just swaggered.

That is a funny word.

What do you think my, okay.

That's a good one.

What do you think my the
line I highlighted was?

If you had a guess.

Favorite, coolest line here.

In the whole entry or specifically
in the stuff that Socrates did?

In the whole entry.

I'll pick Actually, I don't know.

Let's see.

I'm guessing It's a tough question.

We don't Yeah.

I'll say,

based on the conversation we've had
already today, I'll say it's the little

clause about not losing your Temper
unpredictably at the evil done by others.

Ah, that's a really good one.

Yeah, that one is like it's at home.

That might be too on the nose for
the anger conversation We were

I won't I won't it's Guess what?

It's like one of those things.

It's annoying what I what I
had highlighted was The concept

of making yourself a slave
to other people's ignorance.

Ah, that was the other one I
was considering saying actually.

That's a cool one.

Just cause we hadn't talked about that.

Yes.

I think that is cool as well.

I had less of a natural way of,
that would have just been a pure

guess in the dark if I had said it.

I had less way of explaining
why that was my guess.

It's just a cool thing to say.

If someone's if you're thinking
about something, you're upset

wait, stop, don't make yourself a
slave to other people's ignorance.

Ignorance.

Yeah.

That's it.

Oh.

It's, yes, it is phrased in such a way
that is a little bit on the edge of his

tendency to call other people idiots.

Yes, for sure.

Which always has this very.

Interesting coexistence with his love of
like in some ways He's very charitable

and wants everyone to be treated with
justice, but then he yeah with the other

part of his mouth He's calling them
all idiots with yeah, that's a classic.

That's true.

That's true But it's interesting to like
being a slave of Other people is one thing

being a slave of other people's ignorance.

Yes, is well because you could I guess
he's implying that it's okay to care about

things that aren't just their ignorance.

Yeah, maybe.

But yeah, This reads like rat
race, don't do rat race to me.

Yeah.

Yes.

Yep.

I like that It's similar in a way to the
thing that he says He's talking about

people and then he says like this thing
about don't treat or didn't treat anything

that nature did as abnormal or put Up with
it as an unbearable imposition Yeah, I'm

reading that last bit about an unbearable
imposition as similar in a way to that.

Like you can, maybe you're dealing
with somebody who has some, yeah,

has some flaws of some kind, maybe
doesn't understand something.

I could be like, Oh God, this
person doesn't understand.

And they're like, I
need them to understand.

But, and now I'm screwed because
I can't get them to understand it.

And he's saying like that, if you
find yourself in that situation,

something has gone wrong.

Like you have now you have become.

A slave to their ignorance.

And you haven't found
a way to resolve that.

That's how I'm reading it.

Anyway, I'm not totally sure.

So the key thing there is what to
just recognize that's what's going

on and say, Hey, I can't necessarily
control this on some level.

Unshackle yourself and, and
don't consider yourself a slave.

Recognize that there's just
their ignorance and that there's

nothing abnormal about it.

Yeah, and maybe it's gonna lead to some
bad outcome or something, but you did

what you could do to help prevent that
outcome and they will maybe learn a

lesson or whatever if the bad outcome
does come about, and that's how they

learn, yeah, I guess so, yeah, or try
to address their ignorance, or just.

I don't know.

There's not a lot of prescription.

There's not a lot of solution happening.

Yeah.

What's that?

Like it's hard to address people's
ignorance and in his life, it's like you

can try to teach them stuff or whatever,
but that's like often a pretty tall order.

Now the whole book is
about recognizing things.

Yeah.

It's not like what to do about that.

It's not.

Yeah.

Didactic.

Yeah.

Agreed.

Awesome.

Should we do one more?

I have to.

Or do you need to go right now?

Okay.

That's fine.

Yeah.

Okay.

Cool.

No worries.

I think we are in striking
distance for next time.

We are.

I see you Tom.

I see that little glimmer in your eye.

You're trying to hit our New Year's
resolution of getting to Chapter 8.

That's right.

I think we might hit our New Year's
resolution by about January 10th.

Fantastic.

But we have a, the stretch goal
is maybe what I have in mind.

Fantastic.

All right.

Thanks Tom.

All right.

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