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Dig In is your go to source for insights innovation. It's for anyone with a genuine interest in fostering brand and product growth, exploring groundbreaking innovations, and embracing the dynamic world of expanding businesses and brands.
Jess Gaedeke (00:11)
Hi everybody. Welcome to Dig Inspiration.
I recently had the joy of talking with Saverio Spontella. He's chief commercial officer at Land O' Frost. And he shared a super cool story about using AI to choose an agency. And I just thought that was such an innovative application for marketing. So who better to sit down and talk with topic about than our very own Meagan Healey who is VP of marketing and brand strategy here at DIG. No stranger to a podcast. Am I right, Meagan?
Meagan Healey (00:38)
No stranger. Yeah, everyone was, I think, politely mocking my setup. Emma was like, OK, Mike. So, yeah, no, I've got my own podcast. We'll get into it later.
Jess Gaedeke (00:46)
Okay, do you have a serious mind? Yeah, you can.
Yeah, we will. And also, Meagan was the original host of Dig In, and I've just been trying to fill her very large shoes. you know, let's get into it, Meagan because there are some really cool stuff that he talked about.
Meagan Healey (00:54)
It was.
Ha ha.
Jess Gaedeke (01:03)
So Saverio, he shared the story of leading Land O' Frost agency search and he used AI to build basically a long list, vet capability, speed up the entire process, sort of from zero options to 20 vetted agencies in days. So that's a major shift, at least from So how has choosing an agency really evolved from your perspective, especially now that AI can play such a big role in that early discovery and filtering stage? Talk to me.
Meagan Healey (01:32)
Yeah, I think it's really interesting because some extent this is all just about convenience, right? Like the convenience of that information being packaged up. So I think is a level of transparency when it comes to, you know, typing into chat GPT. These are the things that I'm looking for, you know, here are my success metrics, you know, suggest some agency partners for me. But that's almost like perceived transparency from my perspective because
you already had the ability to do that. It would just take far too So do I think, would I use ChatGPT to help me select my agency? Absolutely. long as that initial brief is really strong of kind of what you're looking for. But I think on top of that, now that you can sort of use ChatGPT to get to the answer of who that short list of partners could be faster, I think it then comes back to,
how the agency themselves shows up, like the humans on the other end of those initial phone calls, how those people show up and sort of live and breathe what you've learned through your ChatGPT search. I think there's also an element of I think if they are able to optimize ChatGPT to their benefit and show up for the right things and be aligned with the things that you're sort of hoping for based on that conversation, think ultimately that means that you
I trust them as a marketer because that's not easy. mean, chat GPT is changing so like LLMs in general are just changing so quickly and being able to show up for the right things at the right moments when people are searching for you, that's you could just be that they've got a great agency themselves that are doing that for I think, yeah, from my perspective, it makes you think not only about their ability to leverage AI, but also how smart are those people?
that you're talking to, you know, the first, second, third call that you're doing as you're vetting the agencies.
Jess Gaedeke (03:24)
Yeah. Well, this is going to sound super naive and you're going to be like, yeah, duh. That's like the whole job of marketing, but it makes it so much more important. Like what information is out there about your agency? Like how you present yourself on your website, like where you show up in articles and that kind of thing. It's just, to me, it creates a level of anxiety about what, what do the LLMs say about me? How can I make sure I make it to that list?
Meagan Healey (03:35)
massively.
think really interesting because like search is changing so dramatically. There's a Spark that came out that basically every B2B marketer is citing, but it's like 58 % search is now resulting in zero clicks. So that's crazy, right? Like, I mean, we, you you and I, work together so closely.
Jess Gaedeke (04:06)
Well...
Meagan Healey (04:13)
We've talked about website traffic being down, not just for us, but across the board, like in terms of people's, the way that people are discovering is changing so quickly. right now there's sort of this interesting sort of golden age of AI, if you're smart, and I have very smart people on the marketing team who know more about this than I do, but if you're smart and you can figure out how to produce content on your own that...
the LLMs appreciate and like, you're actually, the golden age part, what I'm referencing there is didn't have the ability to manipulate, so to speak, SEO in the way that you currently have the ability to basically how search works in LLMs. So we have an entire strategy, whereas before we might've been focused most on sort of organic search and how we can show up
at the top of a search bar. we're focused on now is how do we optimize our own content production and perhaps even just have content sitting in the background LLMs like and that mean that we show up in the right places at the right times.
Jess Gaedeke (05:16)
Yeah, I don't know, feels like a lot to manage. I'm glad that we have the right people on it here at DIG. know, going back to the Saverio conversation, he talked a lot about how, you know, the help with a lot of the upfront heavy lifting, but that human filter really mattered. And so, I don't know, I'm curious to your thoughts there. Where do those human beings essential, like where do they have to show up?
Meagan Healey (05:31)
Yeah.
Jess Gaedeke (05:39)
even when AI becomes a bigger part of process, but like in what moments we need to see that human touch?
Meagan Healey (05:44)
I think that once I having a short list of say three to five agency partners in this situation, that's when I want to talk to people. I want to vet the humans behind what I'm looking at. And I think that that's where that sales experience might change. The idea of like, you know, the classic tech sales flow of having, you know, an SCR or a BDR.
then you move into an account executive, then you might bring in like someone who's gonna quarterback the entire deal, and then you've got the more senior folks coming in. At that point, like based on what's changing and how much easier it is to get the information you might need upfront, I wanna talk to the smartest people that might be working on my challenge with me much earlier on in the process. I wanna be able to challenge those people who have the subject matter expertise. And I also just wanna understand
you know, are they living and breathing the sort of ethos that they've got on their website or that I found out through through LLM search. So I think it's about really, it's in my mind, it's about that sales journey potentially changing so that you've got the subject matter expertise at the beginning of that initial call, whereas before you needed a bit more general information before you got to those those further down the line conversations.
Jess Gaedeke (07:04)
Yeah, definitely. And what also struck me is how discoverable some agencies might be that weren't on people's radar. Like it's just kind of cool to think about opportunities for some of the mom and pop shops or the ones that just don't have the budget to be in front of everybody, but maybe they're more discoverable. And there's something about that vibe that I really like. So.
Meagan Healey (07:15)
Yeah.
Yeah, I think that's cool, especially if you can get really if they were optimizing for a specific type of service, that's where I think they could get really specific with the way they're doing their content for LLMs.
Jess Gaedeke (07:37)
Yeah, definitely. Well, I also love this very talked about, you know, they're a challenger brand. And so some of their needs, they needed speed, agility, partners who move quickly with them. And we have lots of feelings on challenger here at DIG. So how do you think that rise of challenger brands has shifted what companies look for in agency partners? What are some of the demands they have?
Meagan Healey (07:57)
Yeah, I think it's really interesting, like this idea of the rise of Challenger brands. mean, I've always been fascinated with I discovered Eat Big Fish, who are sort of the folks who came up framed Challenger, positioned it in the way that we know it now. And on the B2C side, like Oatley, Warby Parker, Fenty, Land of Frost, like...
the list does sort of go on. There's a lot of recognizable challenger brands. I think on the B2B side, it is a newer sort of space to play in or to really like put your, what's the saying? Put your flag in the sand or like, put, that's not the saying, but you know what I mean. But like basically saying, I ⁓ am a challenger brand is sort of a newer thing. I think that
Jess Gaedeke (08:34)
I don't think it's mud and sand, but yeah, make your mark. Decide what you think.
Meagan Healey (08:45)
It's really exciting. We've been a challenger sort of ever, ever since we started, sort of challenging the status quo of what the research industry looks like. But I think when it comes to, how the rise of challenger brands has shifted, what companies are looking for, I think it's this idea that, don't have to do everything the way that it was done before. think that's like a really freeing experience, especially now when we're seeing the rise of AI. I it's also connected, right? Like,
things are changing so rapidly. I think it's a really exciting time for people to say, hang on a second, we used to do things this way. Should we be doing them the same way or do we need to pivot? I think there's a lot of openness to that idea of also just think challenges defined by how you think and how that shows up in the people. So I think it comes back to that human element. Like when you're talking to the humans at an agency partner that you're looking into.
Do those humans sort of live and breathe what you expected based on the brand messaging that you've seen on their site or what you were able to understand through your chat GPT I think that becomes especially important as well.
Jess Gaedeke (09:52)
Yeah, I agree. And I see how that plays out here at DIG with our research consultants and our architects of our technology. We're not the ones to just take an order from a client. And so if they have a brief that's really specific and it's very traditional, we're going to respectfully push the thinking, push the boundaries. And it doesn't mean that we can't do something simple and streamlined if that's what the objective dictates. But we're not order takers. And I think that's how our people show up in the DIG.
Meagan Healey (10:20)
Yeah.
Jess Gaedeke (10:21)
And I think that that's not what every client is looking for, but I think more and more of them will, especially with the rise of the role of technology in research services. So I just think that we have, I think we have the right people to continue to meet that need.
Okay. So, you know, I like to call some of these things like meaning of life questions, Meagan, like we talk a lot about meaning of life questions. So here's one. is the role of a modern marketer changing?
Meagan Healey (10:38)
Love it.
Hmm. Yeah. Thanks for that. Big question. Big question. lot. No, I'm going to go on. Don't worry. Yeah, no, I think I was this was a really interesting one for me to reflect on. So I think in the last five to 10 years or maybe even longer, if there's been a huge focus on how do you get really specific and specialized with like your secret sauce as a marketer?
Jess Gaedeke (10:49)
Next.
Meagan Healey (11:09)
So you saw a lot of roles that were really specific within a marketing team. Like, you you're an SEO specialist or you're not just like a digital specialist, you're like a paid digital specialist or you're a conversion copy specialist. I'm gonna stop saying the word specialist, but you guys get what I mean here. And I think that because of AI, it's sort of like this great equalizer. that everyone's going to be a specialist in any area.
but it sort of levels the playing field to some extent when it comes to like access and your capabilities and your knowledge of to a marketing campaign together or execute on a channel, so to speak. So I think what we're gonna see more of is people who can turn their hand to many different things, but ultimately have a couple superpowers in their back pocket. And those superpowers will hopefully
be more about their ability to... mean, when I think about myself, like the areas that I might be strongest in would be like copy development or storytelling or something like Or it might be, you they're a fantastic I think knowing what your superpowers are, but also upskilling yourself from like a, you know, if you are a SEO specialist, maybe you
upskill yourself in other areas of marketing and that can be your sort of silver bullet. yeah, I think that's where I see it changing a lot. And I also think even more importantly, because of AI, we all saw quotes going around when, you know, last year when everyone was like, AI is taking over. And it was this idea that like the people who are being left behind are the people who aren't embracing or like learning.
how to leverage AI. So I think this idea of having a growth mindset and being really curious and experimental with new things that are going on within your space, I think that's gonna be critical because if you're not willing to evolve with what's happening, when, yeah, it becomes hard to keep pace.
Jess Gaedeke (13:07)
Yeah. So ageism.
Meagan Healey (13:11)
HAHA
Jess Gaedeke (13:12)
No, actually, I'm really asking questions. No, no, really am. And just for the audience's benefit, I like to add these type of topics to my one-on-ones with Meagan just to make it really conceptual and scary for her. ⁓
Meagan Healey (13:14)
my god.
This week it was the passage
of time and actually Jess didn't even know what she was referring to so we just quickly breezed past it.
Jess Gaedeke (13:29)
Yeah,
but back to ages. No, I really do. I want to ask you about this because I think that your team is particularly gifted in experimenting with some of these new AI capabilities and advancing some of the efforts. And I just think it's really cool. You also happen to have a ⁓ younger team in terms of number of years of experience in the industry.
Meagan Healey (13:49)
Yeah.
Jess Gaedeke (13:51)
I don't know, do you think that that, like how important is it for you to have a balance of some of these generational perspectives? Is it that or is it more about their profile? Like if they were advanced in their career number of years wise, the people on your team would still adopt with the same ferocity as they do.
Meagan Healey (14:04)
Mmm.
think that there's absolutely stereotypes around younger people being more hungry and curious and willing to experiment. I think to some extent, those stereotypes had valid roots. Like this idea generation who grew up in technology, like using technology all the time. I kind of get why they might be more willing to try out a bunch of different things because they're just inherently a little bit more comfortable.
But I do really think, like I've worked with some people who are older than me by a few years or significantly, and I think they've been far more experimental than I have. So I do think that it comes down much energy you have for that kind of thing, how much that lights you or not you have that inherent curiosity.
Jess Gaedeke (14:54)
It's the curiosity. Sorry to interject, but that's exactly where my brain was going because my kids are 16 and 14 and I don't see them experimenting with anything. Like, yes, they've grown up with an iPhone in their hands, which is a sad comment on my parenthood ability, but they also are like not even they're not using AI in the ways that I'm using AI. And I wonder if everything is served up to you.
Meagan Healey (15:17)
True.
Jess Gaedeke (15:20)
from the beginning of your life that you remember using technology or having to write a paper for school or whatever, do you lose some curiosity that might be born into the rest of us that are just trying to figure it out as we go?
Meagan Healey (15:34)
Yeah, I think that's fascinating. would love to do a whole other episode on that because I think that this like we're in that age of convenience, right? Where when you get so used to something being convenient, this idea of even leaving your house, like people are like, I don't need to to get connection. But then we have a world of burnt out lonely people. I think people think that they can get everything they need through their devices or through technology. And actually, it's it's the opposite. And they're not necessarily
engaging in the world in as maybe a curious way as we might have because we grew up that way. I don't know.
Jess Gaedeke (16:07)
⁓
Yeah, go live your life, bro. talked about some kind of interesting use cases of AI too, like plan a vacation, travel guidance, all that kind of stuff. What are some of the more unexpected or delightful ways that you've used AI lately?
Meagan Healey (16:21)
I mean, so I have two things. One is I did this whole I really do not think that you can replace the act of like writing on paper. Like I love like a journaling moment or whatever. I also still have a notebook where I put all of my daily tasks, whatever. But I did this sort of like vision boarding exercise like going to get a little woo over the weekend. And I
took all my notes and put those into Chat GPT. And it sort of created like a plan for me. you know, if this is where I want to be in three to five years, like, what do need to do in different areas of my life? So that was fun. And then I guess more practically, I mentioned at the top of the episode, I have a podcast with one of my best friends. It's not work related, but it's just about being a woman in your 30s. And we have used Chat GPT to basically create.
like an entire competitive audit. Obviously we did our own research outside of Chat GPT, but it's come up with a plan for us. We use it to track where we're at and sense check our copy. it's super fun because we're doing this off of our own back. I don't have a team behind me. So it's been an amazing partner, even creatively, to be like, does this sound good? How can we make this sound better? Yeah, it's been really fun.
Jess Gaedeke (17:44)
Yeah, it's fun. I just I risk like rabbit holeing sometimes because I'll use it. You know, I'll do that thing. Like what's what's something that you think my superpowers are or whatever. And it's crazy how insightful and then how much I crave that like feedback. I'm like, are you becoming my therapist? Because it's a little dicey. But I also
Meagan Healey (17:56)
I know.
There was something
that came out this summer. I don't know if you saw it, that it was like, what was it? It was something along the lines of like, what are my blind spots? Give it to me straight. And that was so addictive. my gosh, yeah, me and my friends sat around after a couple of glasses of wine and just read each other's out. was like people were getting teary eyed. It was insane.
Jess Gaedeke (18:10)
Yes, that one.
Totally, I had the same
experience. I know it was really nuts. And I love how Saverio talked about like, you have to get stern sometimes. You got to like, you know, you got to get stern. And I love that. Because I get really unreasonably frustrated when ChatGPT in particular, like doesn't do what I ask it to do, or if it moves too quickly on something I haven't yet asked it to do. And I'll say, why are you already giving me a solution? I haven't even defined the problem. I speak very slowly today.
Meagan Healey (18:34)
I love it.
I know
Jess Gaedeke (18:53)
I
think I'm being put on some AI Karen list because I really do have an attitude sometimes. And it doesn't deserve it. It's just trying to help, you know?
Meagan Healey (19:02)
Yeah, but sometimes
I'm like, my God, like I roll my eyes. It's like, wow, what an insightful list. I'm God, stop it.
Jess Gaedeke (19:10)
Now I'm talking about when it actually goes against my instructions. I'm like, why did you do that? Why did you do that? Or I'll point out this part was incorrect, and it'll apologize profusely and then redo it. But I'm like, yeah, don't do that again. So I get the being stern, but I'm also very polite. And I need to understand the whole, am I wasting the world's resources when I say please and things? So I don't know, I'll figure that out. But I'll probably be turning.
Meagan Healey (19:15)
How dare you?
How dare you.
It's a weird one.
Jess Gaedeke (19:35)
part of the journey.
Well, thank you so much for taking time to chat through it. I thought it was a great episode. Thank you for your support of the podcast in general. In this conversation, it was great to get your take on some of the evolution of the marketing discipline with AI. So thanks for your time.
Meagan Healey (19:47)
Yeah,
thanks so much, Jess. Talk to you soon.