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Thoughts and ideas on education, culture, psychology, social science and more from our academics, students, alumni and wider community to create lasting and evolving change. Podcasts brought to you by UCL Institute of Education (IOE), the world's leading centre for education and social science research, courses and teaching, and a faculty of University College London (UCL).
More from us: https://ucl.ac.uk/ioe
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You're listening to IOE
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Insights, the UCL Institute of
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Education podcast at University
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College London.
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This is Academia et al. The
podcast for anyone and everyone
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figuring out life in academia.
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This is Academia et al. The
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podcast for early career
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academics.
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I am Zeinab El-Khateeb, I'm a
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lecturer in teacher education at
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the UCL Faculty of Education and
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Society.
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In this series of episodes, we
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are going to hear stories about
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academic journeys, achievements
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and legacy, which we hope will
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inspire you to embark on your
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own adventure as an early career
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researcher.
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Today, I'm delighted to welcome
Professor Caroline Daly to the
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studio here with us.
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She is a professor of teacher
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education and director of the
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Centre for Teachers and Teaching
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Research, CTTR.
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She has an interest in the role
of digital technologies in
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professional learning, mentor
learning and school factors that
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affect teacher education.
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Caroline, welcome to the studio
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with us and thank you for
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joining us.
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Thanks very much for asking me
to be here.
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Zeinab.
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I'm delighted.
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Thank you.
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It's a pleasure to have you as
well here.
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Firstly, it would be helpful if
you could provide the audience
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with an overview of your
academic journey and progression
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to the present day.
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Well, I actually started here as
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a student teacher many, many
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years ago.
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I came here to do a PGCE to
train to be a secondary English
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teacher, which I loved doing,
but I had no idea.
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When I finished my initial
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teacher education program all
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those years ago that I could be
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speaking here today with you as
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a professor of teacher
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education.
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Um, that was completely outside
of my thinking at that time.
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Um, I was focused on going into
teaching, which I did for ten
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years in two different schools.
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And I loved it, but I always
knew that I wanted to return to
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the Institute of Education.
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I wanted to continue studying.
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I wanted to learn more about my
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practice and about the research
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and the theoretical perspectives
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that could help me to understand
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teaching better.
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So I did return here to do my
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M.A. in English in Education,
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which was a fantastic
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experience.
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Um, and after that, I actually
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joined the Institute of
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Education as a tutor in initial
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teacher education on the
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secondary English teacher
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program.
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Um, and really from that, I
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gradually moved into working in
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professional learning for
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teachers who had recently
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qualified, um, developing a
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practice based master's program
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for them here with colleagues
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who were really interested in
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using technologies at quite an
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early stage.
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This was in the early two
thousand to let teachers, um,
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participate in professional
learning outside of their school
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hours without necessarily having
to come in, um, except on a few
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occasions a year.
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And I found that a really
fascinating program to work on.
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And then I gradually became more
and more involved in research.
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I started my own PhD research to
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investigate what was happening
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with these teachers who were
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studying with us to obtain a
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practice based master's program,
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mostly online.
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And I was intrigued by what they
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were doing online, how they were
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learning online.
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Um, if it was worthwhile
learning what was going on, what
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was changing in their
understandings of their practice
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and then in their practice.
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So I did my PhD research into
that, um, very closely linking
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therefore my teaching here at
the institute and my research.
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And then I became increasingly
interested in teacher
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development at a wider scale.
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Um, and I was able to be the
project leader for the London
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region, for the government
funded, uh, masters in teaching
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and learning that was launched
in the year twenty ten.
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Uh, so we worked with the
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University of East London and
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with King's College and with two
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local authorities and some
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schools to be able to
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co-construct a program which we
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provided together.
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And that was a really great
chance to work with other
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institutions and other
colleagues across the sector to
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think about the best way of
designing for new teachers to
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learn to support them.
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Um, and then after that, I went
to work in Cardiff University on
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a secondment basis.
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And that was after I had my PhD
and I was carrying out various
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projects into teachers learning
in online environments and also
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into mentoring new teachers.
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Um, until most recently, I was
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fortunate enough to become the
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director of our center for
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Teachers and Teaching Research
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here at the Institute of
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Education, something I could
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never have dreamed of when I was
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a PGCE student all those years
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ago.
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Um, and it's a center that's
particularly dedicated to
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understanding the professional
learning of teachers, what it
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takes to support teacher agency.
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Um, so that our education
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system, our schools can better
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impact on social inequalities
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and try to provide a more
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equitable experience of
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education and access to
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education for all our young
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people.
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So I work with a great team in
the center.
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Um, and we undertake a range of
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different kinds of projects that
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are really linked by that focus
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on agency and social justice
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brought about within the
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teaching profession.
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Excellent.
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That's a really interesting and
informative journey.
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And I must say something about
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the I o. You always come back to
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it.
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Yeah.
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It's written through me like a
stick of rock.
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No, honestly, I've experienced
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the same thing and have so many
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colleagues said exactly the
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same.
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I did my PGCE here, but then I
came back.
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If it's leadership course or
it's, you know, a master or PhD,
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something about IO brings you
back, pull you back, come back.
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Because like, well, I think that
because it's a place where you
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know you're going to be
encouraged and provoked to think
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critically and to ask questions
that are worth asking.
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To develop as a teacher or a
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leader, or to carry out
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research.
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Um, it's, it's something that
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helps to advance that true
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possibility of agency for
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teachers being able to make a
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difference.
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And we need teachers to be
informed and critical thinkers
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and research literate.
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And I think the institute has
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has helped me to do that through
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a range of different kinds of
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pathways.
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Um, and it does it for others.
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And I think, yeah, that's why
people keep coming back.
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Yeah, yeah.
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It feeds you intellectual needs.
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Indeed.
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It's something, you know, that's
actually always attacks me
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again, to do research and to
carry on, as you said.
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Is that feeding your
intellectual need, isn't it?
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Lovely.
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Thank you so much.
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Let's go to the next question
then, which is very much related
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to your journey.
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Which professional
accomplishment or initiative do
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you consider the most
significant to date?
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Ah, that would be.
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I'm sure you have a lot to
choose because currently working
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with the center for Teachers and
Teaching Research is something
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which I feel is a real privilege
to work with a team of
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colleagues who are dedicated to
research in that area.
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Um, but I would say prior to
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that, probably one of the most
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transformative experiences for
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me was, um, when I was seconded
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to a Cardiff University in
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Wales.
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I think secondments are always
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fantastic opportunities to get
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out of our comfort zones, find
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out how other institutions work
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and expand our networks of
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colleagues.
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And of course, working with
Cardiff University meant I was
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working in a different education
system completely as a devolved
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nation within the United
Kingdom, of course.
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And so going to work there.
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Um, again, I was co-leading, um,
a practice based master's
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program for their new entrance
to teaching for the first three
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years of their career.
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Um, and that was a wonderful
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experience, first of all,
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because it meant that I could
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work in an education system,
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which in twenty twelve was
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investing hugely in the
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intellectual development of
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research literacy as an
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entitlement to all its newly
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qualified teachers, um, by
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paying for them on an elective
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basis to study for a master's
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program for the first three
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years of their career, very
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carefully designed.
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Obviously, that's a great
opportunity.
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I can imagine that.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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To develop an inquiry stance
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around the things that really
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matter to them as new teachers
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and to develop research
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literacy.
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That made a difference for
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teaching their pupils in their
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schools, in their subjects or in
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their phase.
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So it was contextualized,
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absolutely contextualized with
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enormous respect for what the
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teachers knew about their
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classrooms that nobody else
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knows.
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Absolutely.
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As a starting point.
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So to be able to develop a
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master's program that was
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working in that way, um, and to
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which the teachers were entitled
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was fantastic.
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Um, and they were also entitled
to a mentor as part of the
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program for three years.
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That was again, supported
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financially by the Welsh
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Government.
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Um, and it was an external
mentor.
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So it was a very interesting
departure from the norm.
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And this was a deliberate
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strategy to recruit mentors from
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outside.
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The new teacher schools.
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They still had the normal kind
of mentoring relationship with a
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person within the school, but
they had an external mentor who
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was their master's program
mentor, who was a highly
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experienced professional, either
a teacher in another school or a
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person in the local authority,
or a person who worked in a
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university who had been a
teacher, and they visited their
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schools and worked with them,
bringing an outside, independent
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perspective to their teaching
and helping them to interpret
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the routines in the schools
around them and the way that
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things were normally done.
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And that kind of support was
extremely unusual in our
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education system, certainly for
newly qualified teachers.
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Um, and in Wales, I could see
that up close.
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We could develop a national
mentor network.
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It was like a Training for a
program within a program.
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For the mentors to learn and to
develop what they were doing
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with these new teachers.
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Um, and it was a really terrific
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experience to work with
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colleagues at Cardiff
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University, Bangor University,
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Aberystwyth University.
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It was in two languages.
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I was going to say because they
have bilingual system, isn't it
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Welsh and English?
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Indeed, yeah.
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Wow.
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And it was effective again.
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The teachers could choose which
language to study in.
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Yeah.
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Everything that we produced was
there in both languages.
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Everything was conducted in both
languages.
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Our learning days where student
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teachers attended the mentor
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training days.
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Um, everything was in both
languages.
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So I learned a lot about being,
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um, preparing material and
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working with colleagues across
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languages, um, to ensure
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inclusion.
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Um, and it meant that we could
work together, bringing the
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different kinds of perspective
and expertise from the different
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universities to provide what was
appropriate throughout Wales.
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We worked with three annual
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cohorts and there was a change
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of minister.
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Sadly, the minister who had this
as the vision um left.
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And as soon as that person left
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and the new minister came in, of
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course, there was a there was a
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change as so is so often the
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case.
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And it wasn't the priority for
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the new minister in terms of
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resource allocation.
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And so it didn't continue to
run.
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But it was a very successful
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experiment with hundreds of new
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teachers in Wales becoming
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master's graduates after three
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years.
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Wow.
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You must be very proud of this
achievement.
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It was a joint.
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I mean, it was a real
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collaboration, I think, with my
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colleagues across the
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universities and with the
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mentors who were amazing in the
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way they responded to doing
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something that none of us had
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ever done before quite like
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this.
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Um, so yeah, it's a source of
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real sort of joint pride and
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shows what you can do when
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you're prepared to take risks
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because it was a risk never been
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done before.
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Definitely out of your comfort
zone.
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Very much out of my comfort
zone.
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You know, two language systems,
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different language and
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absolutely.
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But amazing.
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Wonderful isn't it?
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Yeah.
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Well done.
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All right.
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So were there any individual who
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inspired your intellectual
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development and did you research
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focus align with their
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interests?
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Yeah.
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I mean, there are so many, if
I've got to think of one person,
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it's not very obvious in terms
of they might not have been a
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big part in your life directly,
but something that made a real
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impact in perception.
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And that was actually, um, Bob
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Lingard, professor Bob Lingard
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from Queensland University in
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Australia.
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Um, why did he make a big
impression?
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I went to a conference in the
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very early two thousand, maybe
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two thousand and one, something
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like that.
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Um, and I was starting my PhD
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and I was very interested, as
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I've said in teachers learning
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by talking together in an online
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environment.
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And that isn't what Bob Lingard
was talking about.
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It turned out he was the keynote
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I had never heard of him.
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I didn't know what I was going
to find at the conference.
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I was there talking about
something from my PhD research,
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and he gave a keynote about the
research that he had conducted
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with a team, including Martin
Mills, who subsequently was the
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previous director of our center
for Teachers and Teaching
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Research here at the Institute.
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Um, and they looked at a
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fantastic, um, longitudinal A
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study of teachers and identified
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productive pedagogies.
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Developing an instrument or a
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scale, if you like, to identify
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what it is about the practice of
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teachers and their interactions
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with young people in their
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classrooms, that means that
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learners are enabled, that they
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can access the curriculum, that
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they can flourish, and that they
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can thrive.
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And it was just wonderful to
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hear the way that they had
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decided that it was possible to
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look in very systematic ways at
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what teachers do and understand
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it and describe it, and identify
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its key components, and give it
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a name that helps us to
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understand productive
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pedagogies.
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And of course, one of the most
important factors that they
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identified in really positive,
productive classrooms was the
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positive affirmation of the
young people in the room.
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Uh, inclusion, planning for
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inclusion, conducting inclusive
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practice in every day in minute,
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minute by minute interactions
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with those young people, part of
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the whole ethos in the room and
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the relationship that that had
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with teaching, with teaching
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material, with teaching content,
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um, with those kinds of tangible
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kinds of outcomes, um, that we
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all know are incredibly
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important.
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He was inspirational and he, he
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talked about schools where this
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happened more.
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He talked about teachers
learning communities or
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teachers, professional learning
communities, um, in the ways
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that teachers can together
deepen their understanding of
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productive pedagogies to lead
learning in their classrooms.
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All of this was incredibly
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powerful to me as a new
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researcher.
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Um, it was, oh, gosh, maybe
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fifteen years before I actually
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went to Australia and to New
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Zealand.
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Um, and where I met Martin Mills
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when he then came and worked
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here at the Institute of
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Education, which was, has he
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left now?
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He's left now that his role is
the one that I've inherited as
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the director for the centre for
Teachers and Teaching Research.
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So a very strange kind of circle
has turned very interconnected.
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Yeah.
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So Bob Lingard, absolutely
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wonderful, wonderful
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inspirational researcher.
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Yeah.
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And the fact that it was in line
with your PhD as well.
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Indeed.
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It's just amazing to hear.
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It made me win that far.
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Yeah.
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To Ilya again you so much, you
know, out of your comfort zone
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and you learn more.
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Indeed, learning from research
in Australia and how hugely
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important and relevant that
might be to other parts of the
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world, including our own system.
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Yeah, definitely.
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Yeah.
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Excellent.
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And that leads us to the last
question.
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What academic advice do you have
for early career researcher?
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This could be a staff or
students or both.
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I would say talk with as many
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people as you possibly can about
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your work, your aspirations, the
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difficulties that you're having,
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learn from other people's
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experiences and find those
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networks, those critical
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communication channels that that
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really are the lifeblood for new
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researchers.
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It can be a lonely experience.
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You know, it's hard being a new
researcher.
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You know, you can be on
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temporary contracts, part time
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contracts.
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You're not certain what you're
going to be doing next year.
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You're not certain if you're
going to be able to very easily
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continue the current research
trajectory that you're on.
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It depends if the funding will
be there or not.
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There is a constant cycle of
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putting in applications for
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research.
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The majority of which are not
successful as we know.
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It's only a minority of
applications from funding bodies
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that are successful.
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It's hard.
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And then of course, there is a
very important and productive
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expectations around publication.
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Um, all of these things mean it
can be pressurised.
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We hope in a positive way and it
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mostly is, but working with
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others is absolutely crucial to
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navigating this.
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Yeah, I would say so.
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Networking, informal networks,
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but also consciously approaching
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and accepting invitations, going
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along to things where you think,
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oh, I'm not sure this is one
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hundred percent what I'm
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interested in.
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But when you get there, you meet
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other people and you realize the
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conversation can turn to
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something that is extremely
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constructive.
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You can learn from any research
discussion.
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So be open to joining in and
give it a go.
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And consciously find ways to
learn from the experiences of
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others and share what's
happening for you.
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Absolutely.
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And that's what we're trying to
do through this episode, you
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know, sharing your experiences
and others as well.
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And we're hoping it will be very
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helpful and inspiring to the
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audience.
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Thank you so much.
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It's really interesting your
your academic journey.
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Um, thank you so much for
joining us today.
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It has been a pleasure to have
you here, Caroline.
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Thank you.
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Please follow the link in the
show notes to find out more
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about Professor Caroline Daly's
work as well as discover more
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podcasts from the EU.
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And if you like what you've
heard today, please give the
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podcast a five star rating on
Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
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This will help us to reach more
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listeners who may also enjoy the
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podcast.
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I am Zeinab and thank you for
listening.
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Have a good day.
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Academia et al is brought to you
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by the IOE's Early Career
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Network and IOE Marketing and
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Communications.
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The podcast is presented by
Zeinab El-Khateeb.
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The theme music was composed by
Ronnie Zhu.
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Editing by Teresa Baker of UCL
Educational Media.
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And Jason Ilagan is the
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executive producer of the IOE
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podcast.
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Thanks for listening.
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