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Making capital allocation decisions in low information environments and with alot of uncertainty is hard. This show talks to people who do this every day and teases out how to be good at it.
Martin Tobias (00:00)
Hi, this is the first bet. And a lot of entrepreneurs get interviewed about what how after they became successful. Very few people take them back to before they knew they were going to be successful. Maybe that first bet that they made, you know, when they didn't know what they were doing, didn't know how it was gonna turn out, but they put real money or real time on the line, and that's what we talk about here at the first bet. I'm Martin Tobias, managing partner of Incisive Ventures.
I've made played placed these first bets as a VC, as a CEO, and also as a poker player. My guest today is Eric Jorgensen. You probably know him as the guy who assembled Naval Ravakant, scattered tweets and podcasts into a book that's been downloaded over a million times. And I think we'll talk about that today. Then he did it for Bology and Elon. He's also a GP of a rolling fund, an early stage fund and CEO of Scribe Media.
helps people cre create their own things. And here's what's about Eric that interests me. He's built an entire identity around synth synthesizing other people's ideas. As a curator, not a creator, as a synthesizer. And you know, that's worked out really well and I'd like to talk more about that. Eric, welcome.
Eric Jorgenson (01:13)
Thank you for having me. This is a a great concept for a podcast. I'm glad you're doing this and it's an honor to be here.
Martin Tobias (01:19)
Thanks. Yeah, I mean I thought there were plenty of podcasts out there that were the hot takes on current events. And I'm like, let me talk about one topic and with many, many people. And maybe, you know, like like like you did in your books, then maybe able to synthesize some wisdom or learnings you know how people do it and talking to people from very different backgrounds to see how they make decisions. So tell me about a moment, you know, where you made a capital allocation.
decision with l not a lot of information, took a big bet. What what would that be?
Eric Jorgenson (01:53)
At this point in my life, the the decision and the outcome that has probably had the biggest impact on my life was was publishing the Almanac of Naval. that came out when I was about 30. I had no idea that it was gonna be remotely successful. My definition of success was like to break even on a project and make a product I was proud of. and it's just been an unbelievably like asymmetric.
mind blowing outcome. And you know, at that point in my life, I was like 10 years into my career. The startup that I'd worked w with for 10 years had just sold for a t-shirt. And I was like not I just wasn't exactly sure what was gonna come next and seeing that book like on just take off after everything I'd put into
Martin Tobias (02:35)
So before
you the the outcome's been great, but what
Eric Jorgenson (02:39)
Yeah.
Martin Tobias (02:39)
made you decide to change from being an operator at a company or to take this new thing? 'Cause being a book publisher or trying to, you know, create you know to publish a book was something new. How how what was in going through your mind? How did you decide to pivot like this and to take this project versus I'm sure there were ten other projects competing for your attention at that time. How did you choose this one?
Eric Jorgenson (03:03)
Yeah. What was interesting about this is it was a side project. Like I didn't make a
Martin Tobias (03:06)
Okay.
Eric Jorgenson (03:07)
I didn't make a big scary leap here to like quit
Martin Tobias (03:09)
Okay.
Eric Jorgenson (03:10)
my job and try to become an author. I would just I'd always been reading and writing in my spare time and you know, tweeting turned into a blog and a blog turned into a book. And this was just a ser year series of nights and weekends over years that I just took progressively more seriously.
Martin Tobias (03:27)
Okay. so a side project turned into a bigger thing. and what do you think you learned from that that has made you a better investor or has led you to other projects?
Eric Jorgenson (03:40)
Well, it's it's one of these things I feel like people kind of parrot this wisdom that, you know, it's the things that you do for their own sake, you know, the things that you find yourself drawn to, the things that you do for fun that you do the best at. And it's really hard to really believe that, I think. It's really hard to like actually live that way. And this book, you know, is my greatest proof point of that. I I did it not expecting any
Any reward for it, frankly, like because the process was going to be its own its own reward. And, you know, I invested a lot of money in publishing the book and a lot of time in creating it. The when I when I published this book, the check to cover the book publishing costs was the biggest check I'd ever written in my life. It was more expensive than my car.
Martin Tobias (04:25)
Okay.
Eric Jorgenson (04:26)
I was still renting my apartment. The only reason I could afford it is because my apartment had flooded.
And like I got free rent for a couple of months while they were like re-demolding my apartment and rebuilding it. and so it was, you know, it was a really it was a big leap. and a big leap with no with not a specific hope. I didn't think it was gonna, you know, sell a million copies and become this wild success. I just wanted to make something that I was really, really proud of and I thought was gonna be excellent, that I really loved doing and
You know, the rewards for doing that thing well this well have been unbelievable. And so I think there there's lessons about the power law in there, there's lessons about doing things for their own sake in there. it's it's still taking me practice and effort to like fully learn those lessons and live by them. But having a really powerful example early in my life I think is gonna turn out to be really helpful.
Martin Tobias (05:18)
Okay. What were the things at that time when you were considering writing the biggest check you had ever into this side project that you didn't know if it was going to make any money?
Eric Jorgenson (05:28)
Yeah. I mean the the obvious one is like nobody ever makes money writing books, right?
Martin Tobias (05:32)
Yeah.
Eric Jorgenson (05:33)
it's it's gonna be a passion project, you're you're over investing in a passion project, you're never gonna get this money out of it. that's one, you know, you you're spending too much time back to like, you know, you have all these other ideas. why is this the thing that you spent three years on? Couldn't you have done it in three months? you know, the there's a lot of a lot of that kind of stuff. And
one of the things that that helped me overcome that was just remembering that like I actually have an audience of like one or two, right? So I wanted to I wanted it to be useful to me and I wanted it to be something that Naval was proud to be associated with. And so like pretending like he was kind of looking over my shoulder and knowing that I was gonna have to one day like hand him this book and have him be like, Yeah, you did a good job with this it really changed my threshold of like what I considered quality.
And made me work and invest way harder in it.
Martin Tobias (06:23)
did you take the sort of the the fact that the Naval one worked to as confidence to do the others or were they also passion project or they were probably passion project, but you had maybe a little more confidence now because one had worked out? Or how how did you make those second and third commitments?
Eric Jorgenson (06:39)
Yeah, I the the seeing the outcome and feeling the you know the response to it was a huge is a huge motivator to continue, right? Like when you have when you go from zero happy customers to one happy customer, there's a there's a world of difference in terms of like
Martin Tobias (06:51)
Yeah.
Eric Jorgenson (06:52)
your internal world and the proof that you have to, you know, customer number two, three, four. and so I got that, you know, I got that experience. And writing a book is is hard. It's a lot of work, it's a lot of creative crossroads.
Martin Tobias (07:04)
Yeah.
Eric Jorgenson (07:06)
And so but navigating that maze all the way through one time kind of gives you the sense that you're gonna make it through and it makes you more confident entering the maze again. the other was that, you know, it was I I I find a lot of people in their career have like an inflection point around one one single thing that they either become known for or that's like a rare accomplishment relatively early in their life, right? Maybe it's a PhD, maybe it's an early exit, maybe it's a an athletic
Martin Tobias (07:28)
That's it.
Eric Jorgenson (07:30)
accomplishment, maybe it's a you worked enough.
fancy company that that was a rocket ship company and that like becomes your resume, the thing that you could become known for that make people excited to talk to you. And to me, this for me, this was this book, right? and there's just like a world of difference in who I met and how quickly I met them and how quickly, you know, you're having a a meaningful real conversation with somebody kind of after this book came out than than before.
Martin Tobias (07:58)
Yeah, yeah. So it turned out to be a little bit of a turbocharger on on all the other things. What frameworks do you use either from that or that you've learned over the years to underwrite founders? 'Cause that's maybe a different bet than
starting a book, but was there anything that would that was replicatable or how how how do you underwrite that precede check?
Eric Jorgenson (08:24)
Yeah, for sure. I mean, one that is extremely similar, right, in the book writing world and the pre seed world that you know well is just the power law, right? Like having
Martin Tobias (08:32)
Yeah.
Eric Jorgenson (08:33)
visceral experience with the power law is really important in I think in venture investing and in book writing. And so book writing everybody knows is a shitty business. We also all know that early stage investing on average is a shitty business. but
Martin Tobias (08:48)
But if you get a hit.
Eric Jorgenson (08:50)
But
if you're in the, yeah, if you're in the top 10%, let alone the top 1% or the top tenth of a percent, it's an incredible business and the outcome is unbelievable. And, you know, t Peter Thiel has a great quote about this, which is like, you know, getting to the I'm gonna paraphrase it and butcher it probably, but getting into that fraction of a percent that is the most important is so important that there are no other rules. Like you can use all the other.
tools for thought that you want, but at the end of the day, like are you in that fat edge of the power law or not? And everything else is is noise.
Martin Tobias (09:26)
Yeah, yeah, that's true.
Eric Jorgenson (09:27)
And the the
the value, the incremental value to going from the top
Martin Tobias (09:30)
But how but how how how
Eric Jorgenson (09:32)
one percent to the top tenth of a percent to the top hundredth of a percent is is significantly higher than work starting another thing, firing another lead bullet, right? In particular with books, you know. Mr. Beast talks about this in a videos. It's much easier to get 10 million views on one video than to get a hundred million views on a thousand or a hundred thousand views on a thousand videos. so like
appropriately like getting a really, really, really good product and getting a lot of kind of wood behind one arrow is just a really important thing.
Martin Tobias (10:05)
So so how do you I mean that's that's sort of the basics of the the power law, but then when you're when a CEO is in front of you, how do
Eric Jorgenson (10:13)
I won't.
Martin Tobias (10:13)
you pattern match or try to gauge if he or she is one of those people with the power law potential? because e everyone thinks they're gonna be a unicorn. I get 50 pitches a month, they all think they're gonna be unicorns, but I have to apply some frameworks to
figure out which one of those forty that I meet with I'm gonna actually write a check to.
Eric Jorgenson (10:36)
Yeah. And it same. so some of the frameworks I use is just what what could be a ceiling and does this person have that trait or not? right. So one form of ceiling is the founder gets an offer for 50 million or a hundred million dollars and takes it rather than persevering through to try to build a billion dollar or a ten billion dollar company. another form of ceiling might be the market size.
and competitive nature of the market means that, you know, you can only build a a hundred million dollar or five hundred million dollar business in this space. and that ends up, you know, with with dilution or transitioning to kind of like a an even a multiple valuation scheme from a growth multiple scheme ends up being a a ceiling on the valuation. And so I I try to find both people and and markets and technologies that I feel like have unlimited upside, right? Like
Or or approaching unlimited upside or orders of magnitude more upside relative to the other opportunities available to me. because if there just if there isn't a ceiling, the odds that they're gonna continue building momentum or that there's going to be an incremental buyer for the company at at 10 billion or 50 billion,
Martin Tobias (11:43)
I think that's a
Eric Jorgenson (11:45)
the hope continues to be there and the growth trajectory continues. And I think that's what we're seeing, you know, with some of these unprecedented size of outcomes.
in venture back startups recently is like they're much bigger markets than the venture has tackled historically. The growth trajectory is still there, even though they're gigantic companies. it's an
Martin Tobias (12:03)
Yeah.
Eric Jorgenson (12:04)
interesting time.
Martin Tobias (12:05)
Yeah. You mentioned something that got you engaged, which is I'm doing this book for myself. I want it in the world. Is that a framework that you apply to founders too? you know, this sort of missionary versus mercenary thing that I hear a lot of VCs talk about.
for me personally, if somebody tells me I'm building this because I read a Gartner report and I think it's gonna be a big market, it's an immediate pass because that is a mercenary, not a missionary. And not everybody can be missionary in the way that Elon Musk is missionary, but I think you personally I want a little bit of missionary. How how do you come down on that? Or do you is that one of the frameworks you're looking for and founders?
Eric Jorgenson (12:47)
Yeah, it is. And I think there's a few different ways to think about it. Missionary Mercenary is is a good one. I think i I I'd look for sort of a sensible trajectory to this being the right next company for this person to start. Right. So if if it matches up with sort
Martin Tobias (13:03)
interesting.
Eric Jorgenson (13:04)
of, you know, if they're starting the company yet.
38 and it's related to their PhD work and related to their first job and related to their, you know, their first company that maybe didn't work out. It's kind of like, okay, this is a natural progression. versus, you know, it's it's an outcome of how their whole life has unfolded rather than they're they're they pivoted from, you know, drop shipping to crypto to AI to whatever,
Martin Tobias (13:25)
Yeah, yeah.
Eric Jorgenson (13:26)
that they're kind of perpetually chasing a market rather than pursuing curiosity or working backwards from a problem, right? If someone's been working towards you know.
asteroid mining their entire life and they've loved spaceships since they were a kid and they grew up in their dad's, you know, metal shop. then a lot of those things sort of align and you're like, this person has spent, you know, 30 years thinking about this problem and honing the skills in the industry that it takes to to make a dent in this. to me that's a great sign, not just that they're going to be successful in the early years, but that they're going to continue all the way through, you know, the the messy middle and into the
you know, well into running this company as long as they can.
Martin Tobias (14:06)
Yeah. So the person has to have been curious about this problem for a long time. I've I've funded a couple of CEOs that are like that. Like I I built this company ten years ago and I built it all with people and it didn't fucking work and it was an okay outcome. But what's n available now is I can build it with AI and it's gonna be better and I know it's gonna be better because I tried it the old way and you know, the other thing I tend to look for is that person who's been look curious about something for a long time, but then they've identified some new unlock
Eric Jorgenson (14:36)
Mm-hmm.
Martin Tobias (14:36)
in
some technology trend or something which i enables them to solve the old problem in a new way. And frankly I'm seeing AI unlock a a a lot of that. people have been trying to solve problems, you know, in the SaaS architecture and it didn't work and it now works in in in AI. How how much do you look for that? Some technology or market shift that, you know, is is timed correctly with the curious founder?
Eric Jorgenson (15:04)
A hundred percent. And I think there's there's a number of those that are in surprising industries or technologies, actually, I think, right? Like we we have heard about CRISPR for ten years, but like this the founders that I'm seeing in in the biospace are like, we actually just crossed important thresholds about the throughput and clarity of the like the
Martin Tobias (15:21)
Right.
Eric Jorgenson (15:21)
the the infrastructure around CRISPR that actually make it useful. And and we just I
Like people who are like, I've been watching this threshold for 10 years and we haven't been here, but actually we're gonna cross next year, which is why I'm starting this company now. And here's what that unlocks. Like that is really compelling and you know, maybe the canonical story of this is like Steve Jobs watching, you know, the the store the hard drive storage curves and the battery curves and seeing when the iPod was gonna turn into like a real feasible thing and take over for the Walkman. But like that dynamic is happening.
all over the place in specific industries. Sometimes it's AI. Sometimes it's, you know, a breakthrough research that the professor's not going to commercialize. But if you're, you know, reading the papers, you're kind of like, there's a really interesting kind of breakthrough to explore here. Maybe if I put together some engineers and we try to replicate this, we can build a commercial version of it. lots of lots sometimes it's a supply chain thing, right? Like, you know, there's stuff in in space where it's like,
You know, we have better telescopes and and better satellite supply chains. And so something that was, you know, a hundred thousand dollars to build now in-house, we can just buy off the shelf for a thousand dollars and that means, you know, we can we can move quicker, we can iterate and we can, you know, tackle a challenge for, you know, a a
Martin Tobias (16:34)
Yeah.
Eric Jorgenson (16:34)
a seed r seed round amount of money rather than a hundred million dollars.
Martin Tobias (16:38)
Yeah. That that's happening all across space. The fact that Elon has driven the cost per kilogram to get shit into space down so much, it's opening up a ton of opportunities for space things that were not available when it was a million dollars a kilogram or whatever the fuck it was.
Eric Jorgenson (16:54)
Yeah.
Yeah. And and actually there's a there's a a corollary to that, which is when you find companies that are moving those curves, right? So if you would have understood if you see that okay, SpaceX is gonna drop, you know, the the cost of getting something into orbit by two orders of magnitude, that's really interesting. And then that shows you where all the next opportunities are. but one company we invested in called Longshot is like well, SpaceX is gonna limit themselves to I think it's like around five hundred dollars.
Per per kilogram to orbit or something like that. And, you know, they're like, we have a architecture that we think theoretically can reach, you know, closer to $50 or $10 per kilogram. And it's a ground-based launch system that focuses on just launching the cargo rather than the cargo being in the rocket and having to lift all the fuel. And so it's this fundamentally different thing of like, what is the next leg of that curve going to look like to drop that cost even more? And like that's an interesting way to kind of look at the world too.
Martin Tobias (17:48)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, one question I ask everybody is, y you know, you've obviously taken some fairly risky bets written biggest check ever to start this book and you written, you know, some other checks. Where do you think the confidence came from for you to take these risks? you know, did you you win all the trophies in high school and your mom was your mom great? you know, where wh where did this appetite for risk come from?
in in your background.
Eric Jorgenson (18:17)
It's a fantastic question. I I think there's a I think there's a lot of answers to it, probably as many people have. I think there's isn't probably a psychological answer, in that like, yeah, I have I have wonderful close loving relationships with my my family, my parents, my wife. Like I have a pretty strong sense that my long term happiness is not dependent on whether or not any individual of these bets are successful.
I did a I did a couple things relatively well early in my life that gave me some conviction that, you know, I I can figure things out and and get there. Like I think that closing that loop a bunch of times is good. but I think the most the the biggest lever is maybe just trying to really hammer into myself an intellectual understanding, but like hammer it into my bones that you can make these relatively cheap asymmetric bets.
Over and over and over again. And if you're making the right ones and you're doing them in these domains that have, you know, asymmetric payoffs and and high ceilings, if any ceiling at all, then it's all gonna work out. And and, you know, any one of the individual ones failing is not catastrophic. And you just try to do your best to be like have fun with each one along the way and be optimistic.
Martin Tobias (19:27)
Yeah.
Eric Jorgenson (19:28)
be optimistic and move fast and move on to the next.
Martin Tobias (19:32)
Yeah, that's a p a an important thing I think a lot of people forget is sort of over they they might be thinking every check they write is, you know, the last check they're gonna write. And and I think that, you know, causes you to to to not write a lot of checks. But if you're like, okay, I'm gonna take like you were doing this as starting as a side project, you had other things going on. So you're like, I have three or five things going on. It's not so bad to write this one check over here to the one of the five things because I've got these other things and
the portfolio and it's the same thing, you know, as a VC, you're saying I'm gonna write 30 checks. Any one of I I hopefully have high degree of confidence in each one of them, but all of the downside is capped on every single one and the upside is uncapped. So as a portfolio, and I think a lot of people fail to think of capital allocation decisions as a portfolio and get themselves sort of stuck.
That and that moves me to my next area of questions are, you know, w what are the the gremlins or what are the failure modes that have tripped you up either in writing checks into companies or in I don't know if you started any books that you ended up not finishing or not doing for one reason or another, but what were some of the things that you have found caused you to
make a capital allocation decision that maybe you shouldn't have.
Eric Jorgenson (20:54)
I th I think it context switching can be hard, right? If you're
Martin Tobias (20:57)
Yeah.
Eric Jorgenson (20:58)
if you if you spend some of your time in this like downside is capped but upside is not a asymmetry farming mindset. And then you also spend time in the trying to in be in the Warren Buffett, like don't lose money, value investing, like I I only I just want to get a ten percent return, but I want my money to be really safe and secured, like those are
those are very different head spaces.
Martin Tobias (21:21)
Yes.
Eric Jorgenson (21:22)
and if you if you if you mix them too much, you end up making some pretty weird decisions or rationalizing some things that you maybe shouldn't. And so I I try to be really, really clear with myself on which one I'm doing and kind of batch those and like write to myself and write through it and remind myself which are the right kind of heuristics and questions for for this particular bet.
So that's I mean, what that's definitely one failure mode. I think it's it can be difficult to to appreciate like the full lifespan of an investment sometimes of you know, how much maintenance is this going to require? Whether that's operationally, are you gonna have to make buy sell decisions every year? Are you gonna have to be, you know, managing real estate? Are you gonna have to be on the board? Are you like what is the total human cost of this investment? And
Is the payoff meaningful to you on a on a basis relative to like whatever else you have going on? so I th I think I wrote a post about this called like managing your attention threshold and like the
Martin Tobias (22:20)
Okay.
Eric Jorgenson (22:20)
the trade-off of opportunity costs that you make all the way up through your life. And you know, if you're probably making decisions today that would have been you know, inconceivable to your ten or twenty years ago self.
and that's good and natural, but if you're not outgrowing, you should be desensitized to something that your past self would have been life or death scary, right? You're you're investing more, you're investing bigger, you're investing more aggressively, you're e taking more risk or moving more money or whatever it is. And those are you've got to kind of grow and coach yourself through that
Martin Tobias (22:54)
Okay, always close to the top.
Eric Jorgenson (22:56)
so that you don't get
You don't change a s a strategy that was working for you just because, you know, you you're not growing yourself psychologically along with your portfolio.
Martin Tobias (23:06)
Yeah, yeah. I should read that post. That that that's a that's a good one.
Eric Jorgenson (23:11)
I think Nick Nick Majulli basically transformed it into his book, it's called The Wealth Ladder. so I think you could he's probably got a more
Martin Tobias (23:18)
The Wells Air. okay.
Eric Jorgenson (23:19)
professional version of it.
Martin Tobias (23:22)
Yeah. Yeah. I I definitely resonate with what you said of understanding which decision mode you're in. And frankly, that's why I started this podcast, because I think the decision mode of making these low information early bets is completely different than making a public markets allocation or something like that. I don't know about you, I have an incredibly barbell portfolio on my balance sheet. I do ten, twenty percent in these crazy early stage venture things.
And I have 80% in low leverage real estate, which just pays me money every month. I make absolutely no fucking decisions. I'm super conservative on it. But that cash flow actually gives me the freedom to take these other risks over here. and you know, I I I think to take those risks at this stage of my life, I I need that. When you're younger, maybe you know, you can take more risks without having that backstop, but they're completely different.
decision frameworks. Like deciding whether you're gonna buy you know, what public market stocks you're gonna buy is very different than am I gonna give these two guys in front of me some money to go build something that the world has never seen?
Eric Jorgenson (24:28)
Yeah.
Yeah. And and public markets are tricky 'cause you've got people running, you know, venture style playbooks in public markets, but you also have, you know, dividend investors and and REITs or whatever else you've got. you know, there's a million ways to to play or or or day trading, or who knows, right? There's like there's a million things you could be doing in public markets. are you you are you in REITs when you say low leverage stuff or are you actually buying real estate directly? Okay. Okay.
Martin Tobias (24:52)
No, no, I own my own buildings. I own a bunch of commercial
buildings that I own myself.
Eric Jorgenson (24:58)
Cool. Yeah. So you're you're you're you got property managers, I assume. Trying to
Martin Tobias (25:03)
I have property managers that manage
them for me and they collect all the rents, they manage everything and I just, you know, wrote a check ten years ago to buy a building and that's it. But but real estate is an in an incredibly stable, you know, cash flowing thing.
Yeah, so I'm I'm
Eric Jorgenson (25:20)
Yeah.
Martin Tobias (25:21)
super conservative on on that side. But that but but having some and you know, you my own answer to the question of where the confidence comes from, I had some success too, but I also had enough of a baseline to feel confident taking some more risks. you know, as as I as I'm a l a little bit older. I think it's different when you're young in your twenties, you can take risks because you don't have anything to fucking lose. But when you're in your fifties or your sixties, you have some shit to lose.
So you how you think about risk is I think different later than than it is earlier.
Eric Jorgenson (25:53)
Yeah. And you probably also yeah, I don't I don't know exactly the trajectory and you correct me, but I assume you you started taking like higher risk with smaller amounts. And then as you got comfortable sort of underwriting a a high variance like asymmetric kind of portfolio, you're like, all I'm gonna go from from one percent to five percent to ten percent to fifteen percent of my portfolio once you're seeing results and outcomes.
Martin Tobias (26:13)
Yeah.
Yeah, basically like when I was an angel, I was writing sort of ten to twenty five thousand dollar checks, and then in my first fund I'm writing two hundred and fifty thousand dollar checks. In my second fund I'm gonna be writing five hundred thousand dollar checks. but I'm writing the bigger checks on a track record of you know ha being being able to deliver returns. and then the numbers just go up.
But you know, I wouldn't have started as a five in fact the reason I started my own venture fund writing two hundred and fifty thousand dollar checks is that I was getting opportunities to write bigger checks, but a two hundred and fifty thousand dollar personal check was too much for me to wanna write myself. and so I didn't wanna miss those opportunities. That's one reason I moved into being a professional VC as opposed to an angel.
Eric Jorgenson (26:57)
Yeah,
which makes perfect s I mean, if you think about you're going through all the exact same motions. You're you're diligenting a founder the same, you're meeting the same number of companies probably, you're making the same number of bets. Just like are you you know, is it twenty five grand or is there an extra zero on the check? And there's a lot more leverage in doing the same thing with a little bit more money as long as the strategy holds it up. yeah, it's of course. It'd be hard to resist.
Martin Tobias (27:19)
All
right. Well, thanks for your time, Eric. I think people I've I've learned some stuff about how to think about risk here. And where can people find you? I I do follow you on the Twitter is it LinkedIn or your website or something?
Eric Jorgenson (27:32)
Yeah, I I tweet the most. I'm just at Eric Jorgensen on X or Twitter and eJorgensen dot com has links to my books, the fun, the podcast, everything that I do.
Martin Tobias (27:41)
Okay.
Well, I love it. I've enjoyed both of the books. The I read the Elon and then the Vaughl one and I look forward to your next one and maybe we can invest together sometime this year.
Eric Jorgenson (27:51)
Yeah, I look forward to it. I've learned a lot from from your Twitter, your your appearances, your talks over the years. So I I thank you for sharing all you do thank you for having me.
Martin Tobias (28:00)
All right.