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In our podcast, we dive deep into metrology, calibration, and proficiency testing bringing you real stories, expert insights, and candid conversations from our 85+ years of combined experience. This isn’t just another technical podcast; we’re here to challenge the status quo, discuss industry changes, and tackle big questions like whether calibration labs are failing to train the next generation or if automation has gone too far. Expect lively discussions, industry leaders as guests, and a little fun along the way. As Howard puts it, “Proficiency testing is checking that transition from theory to application. But what happens when techs are just pushing buttons?” And Chuck adds, “We’re not teaching technicians how to measure anymore—we’re teaching them how to press ‘go.’” Whether we’re reflecting on our journeys—like Howard’s path from Air Force electronics to writing calibration procedures for the NFL—or debating metrology’s future, we promise to keep it engaging, informative, and unfiltered.
Chuck (00:18):
Welcome to Chat app with AI chat box Chuck and Holly, sponsored by the National Association for Efficiency Testing, a podcast about all things metrology. I'd like to introduce you to my co-host, Howie Zion. Good.
Howie (00:32):
Hey Chuck. How are you doing today?
Chuck (00:34):
It's a gorgeous day here in Little Rock, Arkansas. I couldn't be happier. It's going to be 76 degrees in February, so it's a tough day to be where I'm at. Well, we got a good guest today, another great guest that's going to join us here in a minute. Mitchell Jones is going to be joining us. It should be a very interesting podcast with him. He has just been recently promoted to the chief sales officer at Indies Soft, and there's a relationship. Mitch is, besides having his full-time job, he's also on the board of directors. He is the director for charge of marketing for Oversight for Nat, and he's been extremely active helping out the people that do our marketing for NEPT, providing a lot of great advice to that. And so I'm excited to have him on the podcast this morning.
Howie (01:32):
He is been somebody that we've known for a little while, right? Been in industry a little while. We've definitely played some golf rounds with him. A pretty decent golfer, wouldn't you say?
Chuck (01:44):
I think he's a really good golfer. Yeah. It makes me mad because he's so young and he can still hit the ball.
Howie (01:50):
See, that's more of a compliment coming from you who has been a very good golfer. Right. Excellent
Chuck (01:55):
Golfer. Yeah. Years ago versus
Howie (01:57):
Me who sucks at golf. I'm just out there for the ride. Yeah. I'm just out there to enjoy the weather and nice company and have a couple of drinks.
Chuck (02:06):
Maybe we can get Mitch to talk about when he and I teamed up at one of your events and he and I shot 10 under together.
Howie (02:12):
Oh yeah.
Chuck (02:14):
He and I both played really well that day.
Howie (02:17):
I can do that on a scramble with you guys playing.
Chuck (02:21):
You could be part of the team with Mitch and I and be part of that 10 under, so stick to my music. You stick to your music. Exactly. So it's all good. But he does love his golf. I think he will tell us and his answers once or twice the word golf will come up as well.
Howie (02:40):
I guarantee it.
Chuck (02:42):
But we're excited to have him on the board. Like I said, he's done a great job so far. He's been on the board going about six months now. We're tickled pink. He's doing a great job in the marketing. There's some things that are happening between Indie Soft and NEPT that we might touch on today as well. We'll see where the conversation goes with that. And with that being said, I think now look at this as we're talking about the devil, there he is.
Howie (03:10):
Must have been burning
Mitchell (Mitch) (03:12):
Howard, Chuck, how are you guys?
Howie (03:13):
Good. Glad to have you on.
Mitchell (Mitch) (03:15):
Appreciate you having me. It's always fun to enjoy a little banter back and forth with you
Howie (03:19):
Two. Look at that. You at your musical instruments in the background. I got my drumsticks. Let's go.
Mitchell (Mitch) (03:24):
Ah, look at that. So this is actually not my office. This is one of my colleagues' offices who's a developer and he programs all day and I think he plays a piano at night when everybody leaves. So I'm still in his office for the day. It all fits
Chuck (03:37):
Together. Nice, nice. Well, Mitch, we did a little bit introduction to you before you jumped on board with us. We identified that you're with the Indies Soft Organization and you are the Chief sales Officer for Indies Soft. And what's really, I think the first question I'd really like to get solved is you don't come to us like most of the people around from the quote, metrology trained, female trained, military trained metrology technician. You actually served in the Navy and you were an intelligence officer. How do you go from being an intelligence officer in the Navy to being the chief sales officer for one of the greatest calibration software companies in obviously United States, but you guys tell internationally as well, can you? That whole thing? I still haven't figured that out.
Howie (04:36):
The world wants
Mitchell (Mitch) (04:36):
To. Yeah, I'll bridge that gap. So first of all, being an intelligence officer or anything, certainly an oxymoron statement. So I don't fit the bill of that title by any stretch.
Howie (04:48):
However, the title of the show is Chat, NAPT, with ai, chatter, Botts, Chuck and Howie. We bring the artificial intelligence. You
Mitchell (Mitch) (04:58):
Created it. Yeah, so, so I came to this, this was in I guess 2008, maybe 2009. I made this. 2009 made the decision that I wanted to get out of the Navy and anyone you start applying for jobs. And kind of what I did, I was in a path of applying for jobs with multiple different federal agencies. I wanted to be an FBI agent, A-N-C-I-S agent, a TF agent. I started applying for all of the feds and that process takes a really long time. And at the time actually, I was living in Cuba on top of that. So I couldn't do some of those things. But at the end of that, I guess fast forward, my brother-in-law was working for SOFT at the time and he knew that that was what I was trying to do was apply for jobs with the federal agencies. And any case, he said, well, can you come work for IND Dsof in the short term?
(05:51)
And we know it's not long term, it's really just to help us out. We need a software trainer who's willing to travel. And obviously I was gone 300 days a year. So being gone six weeks a year, Iny Salt was no big deal. And that's how I got into this. So my job was to come in, learn our product, and then go help customers get onboarded with our product. So I had to kind of put myself through a metrology 1 0 1, if you will. In fact, actually I think I read to even understand what this was, the Metrology handbook, and I know that now there's several revisions later, but metrology Handbook four is still on my bookshelf at home. So that's how I got into this.
Chuck (06:28):
And you had that cover to cover
Mitchell (Mitch) (06:30):
As much of it as I possibly could. I mean, I started with our user manual cover to cover, which at the time was like 1200 pages. I think now we're probably up to 2,500 on our software. But back then that was my focus first. But then as I got out there, I had to learn, well what is this product actually for? What does it solve? So that was just one of the most useful reference tools that I had at the time.
Howie (06:52):
You've increased your intelligence quotient. We had a previous podcast where we talked with Paul Reese and we were talking about IQs. Have you ever taken an IQ test? Do you know what your IQ score is?
Mitchell (Mitch) (07:04):
No. No. If I did, I probably would not share with the two of you anyway. I shared mine. You'll have to. Well, you're a better man than me. I would not do that.
Howie (07:15):
So then the question is, how much do you retain after you read something of that length with that much detail? You don't have to answer. It's a rhetorical question, but a lot of people can't retain it. Some people can, and that's amazing.
Mitchell (Mitch) (07:29):
And honestly, I don't know. I'd say I probably went back and referenced it numerous times. In fact, I still probably do every now and then. But I'm also a learner who I actually do learn by reading. Some people hear it, some people do it. I'm one of the few that probably if I read it, I'll remember it. If you tell it to me, I won't. And actually you can ask my wife that if she puts it in an email or text, I pretty much remember it. But she tells me when I'm walking upstairs.
Howie (07:52):
That's interesting phenomenon
Mitchell (Mitch) (07:53):
Because
Howie (07:54):
I can remember number sequences. For whatever reason, I've got my credit card number memorized, my wife's social security number, my daughter's social security number, you have my credit card memorized. That's not good. But I can't remember dates to save my life. I can't sequence things in order and I don't know why I can't do that very well. That's just, it alludes me. But numbers I retain, especially if I see a name or a number, I can retain that learning by doing. I love that. A lot of people learn by doing to your point, but you're good at just seeing it and remember that's good.
Chuck (08:32):
Somehow he definitely cannot learn by doing because there's a certain activity that he's been trying to do a lot that we'll get into a little bit later, but he's still struggles with, but I don't want to bring him down until we end with the show. So Mitch, we need to figure out Now to expand on that, what do you do at iof? What is your daily responsibilities? Can you tell what the audience exactly what you're responsible for and what your mission is there at ind Asoft?
Mitchell (Mitch) (09:04):
Yeah, most definitely. So I currently carry a title of our chief sales officer, which is a newer title actually for us, since we've been in, honestly, indie Soft has been in a hypergrowth period since really 2018, 2019 I think we went from being a dozen employees to now I think we're sniffing almost 70 employees. You guys
Howie (09:25):
Are so far
Mitchell (Mitch) (09:26):
Right now, six year run. So it is been a crazy growth period. Added developers, implementation staff, sales reps, international operations distributors, all these different things. So
(09:39)
My primary job is to essentially grow our sales, is to bring on new customers, mature existing accounts, put products in front of customers that, oh, I'm sorry, take our existing products and align those with our customer base to help them essentially either get more calibrations done per hour with less bodies or make more revenue for their laboratories. So that's my role is to run our sales department, our sales staff. That has not always been the case. I think I mentioned that came to Indie Soft in 2019. Started off doing software training. From there, I think I went into operations management, project management implementations. I think I've done everything but write the code itself. And to this day I would say I still, I do, my title may be one thing, but I do what our customers need out of me. I think that's kind the way I've helped grow our business. But yeah, that's what I do. Chuck at Indy Soft run our sales operations.
Chuck (10:37):
Nice. Great. Well, the thing that I'm curious now about is you've only been in the business for six years and you've already established yourself as a player. We call a player who knows a lot of people, very influential in the business. You're well respected. And so I think that's a huge accomplishment that you've come into this business, which is brand new to you. Like you said, you had to learn metrology and now you've really embraced it and it's become your life second only to golf. Sure.
Mitchell (Mitch) (11:10):
Well, they'll go into first golf,
Howie (11:14):
How
Mitchell (Mitch) (11:14):
People,
Howie (11:14):
You must've written that book or read it, right?
Mitchell (Mitch) (11:18):
Well, so I came into the industry in 2009, so I guess I've actually been in metrology, indie Esof for 15 years, but I didn't really get out there and really get to know customers at the level of where the industry's going, understanding what the industry needs. My job the first seven or eight years with IND Esof was just to get it installed, get it deployed, and then move on to the next. I wash my hands the last six or seven years is where I've been trying to actually grow the business, grow the brand, align our brand with the metrology community as well. And honestly, I think coming back to your question, I think what's made me is really, I try to align myself with people who I think are industry leaders as well. So if you look at some of the people when you see me at a conference, people who can be a wealth of knowledge for me, which mountains can I drink out of essentially? So I try to hang around those people and grow my own skillsets because as one person, I certainly won't know everything. I can't where I picked up that trait, probably in the military, probably in college, probably just a multitude of places. But I just try to surround myself with people that I think are industry experts and seek their guidance and their wisdom and drink out of the fountain that they're pouring out of.
Howie (12:31):
Yeah, you've got a great personality as well. You're easy to get along where these, you get to know and that's a big part of it. And you don't let others knowledge intimidate you just dive in and get comfortable, which is
Mitchell (Mitch) (12:44):
Key. And by no means I'll never be the expert in some of the actual metrology specific functions. That's where you are. Howard or Chuck, I'm talking to two woodington winners right now on this phone call. I would've never guessed that six, seven years ago. Here I am getting interviewed by you guys, so this is awesome.
Chuck (13:06):
Nice. Well let's kind of steer the direction towards what our sponsor, so you don't have tipping on the role as well as a board director and speaking on behalf of the board, we're tickle pink that you've been on the board and I would point out to our audience that you've been extremely active in your role as director of marketing. Can you expand on that and what you're doing as a director of marketing on the N board of directors?
Mitchell (Mitch) (13:33):
Yeah, most definitely. So I'm kind of in an advisory role and strategic advisement role. How do we grow? Indie Soft has done a great job in growing. How can we apply some successes in a strategic way and an advisement way to NAPT? I think NAPT is the industry leader of proficiency testing. I think the roster, the manpower, the labor, all the things that go into it creates an incredible offering to your customers and I wanted to be a part of that. I wanted to help and grow that. Obviously I've got relationships with several people on the board and your past boards and I've learned that there's nothing but great things to say. And then what really made me resonated and really wanted to be part of this was my customers who are also in APTs customers do nothing but speak highly about NAPT as well. So if there was another brand or an organization that I can attach onto and help, I obviously want to be doing that for somebody and operates similar the way I do. And I think NAPT and the commitment to metrology, the commitment to doing things the right way actually aligns very closely to the way how we operate. Ines Soft and me personally.
Chuck (14:39):
See that's the kind of spokesman that we need for NAP right there. I think it's perfectly safe.
Howie (14:46):
I got an idea. Why don't we make him the board of directors for marketing. I like that.
Mitchell (Mitch) (14:52):
See, I told you I surround myself with only smart people. Look at you guys. Yeah.
Howie (14:56):
Well here's the thing. When we were sitting down and trying to figure out, okay, we're going to recreate the board for NAPT and who is it that's on our wishlist of people that really would cause the company to benefit you were our first pick. You came to mind first and you were the first one that we appointed, which speaks volumes to your ability, right? Your intelligence, your efforts, your experience. Glad to have you on
Mitchell (Mitch) (15:25):
Flattered, but I certainly, truth is
Chuck (15:27):
Mitch. Yeah, he was Howard's first pick. You were my second pick. Overruled.
Mitchell (Mitch) (15:35):
Oh, well Chuck, that's only because you can't beat me in golf anymore. I understand. You still want to be the best golfer on the
Howie (15:39):
Board.
Mitchell (Mitch) (15:41):
I understand, Chuck. I get
Chuck (15:42):
It. Howard, what did I tell you? Did I not tell you he would bring this up?
Howie (15:46):
I'll pay him my 20 bucks. Saw that after the show.
Chuck (15:48):
Yeah, exactly. But since you brought it up, Mitch, how many times have you shot? 67.
Mitchell (Mitch) (15:58):
Almost every time I play actually. But then I have have four or five more holes that usually that's it every time. Every time I play I shoot was 67 Chuck. 5% false. How many holes do I have after is the question?
Chuck (16:15):
I did share though, Mitch with Howard about one event that you and I were partners with where you and I both played fabulous that day and we just shot lights out. You and I together shot 10 under and
Mitchell (Mitch) (16:30):
It was a go round of golf that day. Yeah, that was good.
Chuck (16:33):
Yeah, we both played well when I screwed up. You stepped up when you screwed up. I stepped up. It was just a fabulous, you know what we call ham and egg in the business and that was day ham and egg. Yeah.
Howie (16:44):
One of you asked me what my score was.
Chuck (16:49):
Well Howard, we seen you play my friend. We love
Howie (16:52):
You. I'll just say that lunch was good.
Chuck (16:58):
If you ever want to win a buck, just play around the golf with Howard and take the over on the number of balls that he carries in his bag and he shoots that day. So let's get into what we like to call our questions and answers. So this is the next segment of our podcast. And so Howard, would you like to ask the first question?
Howie (17:20):
I like to go with my standup question, your four M moment. What is in your short career in metrology or related to metrology, your most memorable metrology moment to date?
Mitchell (Mitch) (17:33):
Oh gosh.
Howie (17:36):
Anything come to mind?
Mitchell (Mitch) (17:38):
I mean honestly, it's probably going to go back to almost like 6, 7, 8 years ago when I was helping implement our software and when you're the middle of those things, it is down to the wire and this has nothing. It is metrology driven kind of in a way. But I was at this particular lab in southern California, six, seven nights we're up till midnight at 1:00 AM and it was almost like a military operation where we were in the trenches together just trying to get the migration complete, trying to get all the configurations, all the training prepared, we're ordering food in, we're doing whatever it took just to get live because their old system was really about the server was going down, they had to be migrating. All timeline got crunched literally
Howie (18:22):
The 11th
Mitchell (Mitch) (18:22):
Hour.
Mitchell (Mitch) (18:23):
Yeah, literally it was a nine month project. We come in and do it shorter, but me and the owner of that lab and we were just up to, I just remember that it literally felt like a military operation where the deadline came in. The enemy was newer now. So was that anything to do with the metrology level? Probably not so much in near sense I think. But just one of the things that really stands out and what's crazy about it is that person I was with in that conference room that week we're like BFFs now in the metrology world. I mean, we give each other some of the biggest longest bear hugs and we see each other and I give everybody a hug, but he gets a special one because he in the trenches with me. I don't know. So it was just a really cool experience and I'll never
Howie (19:07):
Forget. That's a good moment. Yeah, great one. Really sweating it out. But you pulled it through, right?
Mitchell (Mitch) (19:12):
Yeah, that's exactly it. Yeah.
Chuck (19:14):
Well, let me change the gears a little bit. Let's talk a little personal for a minute then we'll get back to the business side. So we've established the fact that you love the game of golf and it probably takes precedent, maybe really close second to your family, but if you had to have, we'd asked you about your best moment in metrology, what is your best moment playing golf?
Mitchell (Mitch) (19:41):
Obviously I've been on a million different golf trips, seen some really great golf courses. I'd probably say hole in one is going to be up there. I think with some of my best buddies that's certainly up there. I think, I don't know, in 2020, the covid year golf was the one thing that no one could really do. So I won player of the year at my club and we had a player shoe out, so it was like 20 guys, 21 guys tee off on hole one, then 20 guys tee off on hole two 18 guys tee off on hole and the survival of the fittest. So I ended up winning that. That was cool. That was like you win the points all year. But honestly for me it is probably the fellowship of golf. Actually, I can think back to a gosh, Chuck being at Pelican Hill in California with your son.
(20:27)
You know what I mean? It was awesome, Howard, you were fun. I'll remember certain shots, like good and bad shots that people hit. Actually I'll remember when we played at your charity tournament or the one that used to help sponsor Howard Chuck, you had almost two whole ones on two par threes that day. There's only four par threes and you hit 'em this close. So I remember stuff like that. But Chuck, you even said, you said Mitch, we thought it went in and you were like, I'm not walking up there to hit that end, Mitch. He's like, do you think you can actually make that one? I'll remember that little funny comment you made. So it was good. So I think it's just the fellowship and the courses you play and the people you're around, but there's so many
Howie (21:04):
Different things in golf. Did you ever meet any pros?
Mitchell (Mitch) (21:09):
So actually the place where I play my primary golf out of is the home club of a guy named Bradley Hughes and he actually is one of the Australian masters. So he's a teaching pro in my club. So I've met him and because of him being there, there's a lot of PGA guys and L guys that come and get lessons there. So I'll see 'em on the range and go, oh my gosh, that's what it's supposed to sound like when you hit a golf ball and stuff like that. But I don't really, I'm not friends with him. I will say I am friends with Billy SI shouldn't say that, that I'm not, because he played on my AAU basketball team in high school and middle school, so I know Billy and Jay Hans, which is kind of cool from afar.
Howie (21:52):
Just like you say, you surround yourself with people who are the experts in metrology, but you're never going to know that level. Same with me in golf. I surround myself with people who are really good at it. So you've traveled a little bit, you've been here and there. Yeah. What's your favorite place that you've ever eaten or type of food?
Mitchell (Mitch) (22:14):
Yeah, I might answer this two ways. The favorite place I've ever eaten is actually, it's probably a place called Tony Dal's and it's actually a couple blocks outside Times Square. It's just the most authentic and amazing family style Italian and I do love it. I'm a pasta guy. I love all the sweets, so that's probably my favorite restaurant. I would actually go out of my way to go eat there and I don't really like going to Times Square. I love New York, but I go there just to eat at pasta. My favorite food, honestly, it's probably cereal. I'm just a huge fan of cereal. I absolutely love it. It's so unhealthy, but I just don't care. I'd rather cereal. So you're cereal or ice
Howie (22:52):
What your kids shouldn't be eating. You're eating that stuff?
Mitchell (Mitch) (22:54):
Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
Howie (22:57):
What is it Tricks? Is it Cocoa Puffs?
Mitchell (Mitch) (23:00):
I mean, since you asked, right? I think Honey Mustards or those to the almonds would probably be maybe my top cereal. It's got some sweetness to it, a little bit of almonds, so at least I feel like it's halfway nutrition nutritional. But honestly, I'm Amm a Lucky Charms guy and I'm going to go charms if I want some sweets. That's the two routes don't go one,
Howie (23:21):
Hey, that is coming up,
Mitchell (Mitch) (23:22):
Beat up. That's it. Get these
Howie (23:24):
Jars. You've got your unhealthy one and your healthy cereal as much as you can call it that. My healthy cereal is special. K pecans, that blend, which I can't find anymore. It's delicious. I just love it.
Mitchell (Mitch) (23:39):
Really.
Howie (23:40):
My unhealthy one only comes around Halloween every time because it's Count Cho. I love Count Cho.
Mitchell (Mitch) (23:47):
See, I like the strawberry one of that. What is it? I can't even the name of it, but I know it when it comes out because I go to the store and I just grab the all and take 'em all home and yeah, I love 'em.
Howie (23:59):
Can only get once here and it's going to last on the shelf forever.
Mitchell (Mitch) (24:03):
Yeah, I mean if you were to ask me though, if I was going to get the electrical chair was my last meal. It probably is. It probably is a buffet of cereal. I think
Howie (24:14):
That's what I, because you're a serial killer. I get it.
Mitchell (Mitch) (24:16):
Yeah, that's good. That's you're there
Howie (24:21):
In the first place. Alright, Chuck, what's your favorite cereal?
Chuck (24:24):
My favorite cereal, believe it or not, is oatmeal. Oatmeal. I like oatmeal. I
Howie (24:32):
Thought you were going to say grape nuts. Love that crunch.
Chuck (24:35):
No, we only stock here, believe it or not, hunting nut cereals for my kid. And in the wintertime I'll eat oatmeal all the time. I just like how it stays with you for 10 hours. You don't need to one little bowl just full of nutrition for you and it's easy to eat. So I sorry, I like oatmeal.
Mitchell (Mitch) (24:59):
Two weeks is it own. I like a plain rice cake, which makes no sense. It's the plainest thing in the world, but I love it. Rice is delicious.
Chuck (25:07):
That's why. So healthy rice has been rice. You can tell you like rice cakes. You're healthy. Look at look called fit.
Mitchell (Mitch) (25:13):
I dip them in peanut butter though. That's not healthy.
Chuck (25:15):
No,
Howie (25:16):
I'll just been the peanut butter. I'm not a peanut butter fan. I got to tell you, Chuck and TR bought us a rice maker years ago. I forget when it was. We use that thing all the time. I love Jasmine Rice. We at TR Joe. Yeah, yeah. I love Jasmine Rice. Yeah,
Chuck (25:33):
I
Howie (25:34):
Can do the plane or whatever.
Chuck (25:35):
I should tell you the story about my wife and rice.
Howie (25:39):
Okay.
Chuck (25:39):
Okay. Real quick, and then we got to get back to Mitch, but real quick, back when we were dating at the time, my girlfriend came over to my apartment. I live in California and my wife is Asian. By the way your
Howie (25:53):
Wife, wife knew about your girlfriend.
Chuck (25:54):
No, no, no, don't stop. I was going to make chicken and rice for dinner. And so she came home, she gave more early and I said, well, here you make the rice. And I had a rice maker rice pot, and so she went ahead and made it and then the chicken got done and then the rice went off and it came out. It was terrible. It was the worst rice. She used too much water. It was just like mush. And so not trying to be crazy, but all our fritz, which a lot of 'em were from the Asian community, tease me that the white boy can make better rice than the Asian chick. And so to this day, I constantly tease my wife on the fact that I make better rice than she does because I had to remake it after the fact.
Howie (26:41):
Okay, you made it perfectly all those times. You made the Korean style ribs.
Chuck (26:46):
Well, she's learned now, my wife now, now, when we first started dating, she couldn't, couldn't boil water.
Mitchell (Mitch) (26:52):
She's
Chuck (26:52):
A good cook. Now, my wife is a unbelievably fabulous cook. She is just phenomenal what she can cook. She just blows me away how she's become this couldn't make rice in a pot and now she makes everything. You guys have both been treated to my wife's cuisine. Oh
Mitchell (Mitch) (27:08):
Yeah.
Chuck (27:09):
Yeah, most definitely.
Mitchell (Mitch) (27:13):
I was actually telling you last week in Huntsville that the apple pie that she made, and I think one of my first board meetings was probably one of the best desserts I think I've ever had. So sorry. You're lucky. Yeah.
Chuck (27:24):
Yeah, I agree. I'm lucky. Let's get back on track. Mitch, what do you foresee as maybe things that are changing in our industry? Is there anything, the next big thing coming on with Indie Soft, with esof, with N, where do you think the metrology community is
Mitchell (Mitch) (27:41):
Going? Yes. So I think there's going to be, gosh, I hate to use the same thing, ai, but it is, it's kind in some shape, some form. Lots of shapes, lots of form. I mean, heck, I've even got a golf putter that says it was made with artificial intelligence. It doesn't help anything, but it's just kind of a marketing thing. But in the metrology world, yes, it is coming and it's coming in the form of directly impacting ind Usoft, DCC, the digital calibration serve the MIL committee, providing the ability for equipment and OEMs to populate databases so customers can do something with that data in a clean, consistent way. AI to be a big part of that, imagine a future state where let's say transcat outsources a piece of equipment to a third party or to an OE em, they get the server back. Imagine it is just optically scanned and all that data goes into a place where Transcat can do something with that database with no manual or no human interaction that's coming.
(28:40)
And it us all starting with having digital calibration certificates that are in the same structure, same format, using the universal taxonomy and things along those lines. That's coming. I think other ways to Bluetooth getting more and more involved. And when I first came into this industry, all we had was GPI and I guess RS 2 32 and then became USB. Now you got Bluetooth pipettes, they're pulling in data and sending out to a software. So that's going to continue to happen. Digital transformation for us, but I think AI in a lot of various different ways for sure.
Howie (29:16):
I love how that future vision looks based on what you're saying here, but clearly to your point, that requires standardization of data, right?
Mitchell (Mitch) (29:24):
Correct.
Howie (29:24):
That taxonomy has got to be put into place and people have to adopt it.
Mitchell (Mitch) (29:28):
It does, and then we can get there, and I actually think it'll be challenging, but all these places have all this data. So even if your systems are not a hundred percent compliant to whatever the standard is, just have an output method or an input method to a DCC format. So there's a lot of ways that you can, once the standard is set, people can adopt to it, but choose not to adopt to it. Then you have input output options to that format. So there's going to be, I think that's all where it's going. I think it's beneficial. I don't think there's a single con or it can't hurt the industry in any way. I think it's only going to be great when that happens.
Chuck (30:07):
I agree. Well, I know the software that we write at NEPT is they use any AI a lot already. There's a lot of that being used. It's on our website for whether it's a search engine, whether it's finding on information, whether it's solving a problem. Our programmers are definitely enhancing as much as we possibly can because we have to harness its capability as well. We have to stay behind the schedule. We're not like anywhere Essof is with it, but we are aware of it. I couldn't agree with you more that the future is ai.
Howie (30:38):
So to do that, there's another factor, and that is keeping up with the latest things and keeping yourself educated. I know you're a strong proponent of education, Mitch, what are your thoughts on that?
Mitchell (Mitch) (30:49):
Yeah, no, gosh, a thousand percent agree. I've been in the classroom, I feel like all my life in various different ways, compliments of the US Navy. But yeah, that's why I think in this industry, there's the Measurement Science Conference. There's N-C-S-L-I, there's the regional meetings, there's the tech exchanges, and these also a big order of these because this is how we educate our community. When there is something new coming out, when there's something even new available yet, is there something potentially in a roadmap or a pipeline, not just for in dsof, but for all of us in this community? There's only so many ways we can educate each other. So we're huge supporters of it. I'm personally a huge supporter of education, which is why you see me at a lot of these different conferences because I believe in education for sure.
Howie (31:35):
Yeah, it just made me think of the conferences that we go to, and they've changed over the years, right? They've been at great points, and not just attendance, but the effort that goes into putting 'em together and they training syllabus available types of courses you can take. And then there's been years where it's been kind of weak, right? Low attendance and all of that. I recently attended the NAM show, the nam, if you're not familiar with that, is the National Association for Music Merchants. And this show took up the entire Anaheim Convention Center,
(32:11)
Huge. I mean just three days of nothing but walking to the exhibit floors and different training and lots of music venues going on at each of the exhibits. It was a lot of fun for me, very entertaining, obviously, because they're selling everything that you would need to be in music production, not just instruments, but cables and lighting and sound music equipment and all of that type of thing. But it was a lot of fun. But what was good about that is to see a different venue for a different industry and how they put that together. My gosh, the amount of work that went into that, because they had three main stages where performers would perform each night or even on the weekends, shows throughout the day, plus all these little exhibits, exhibit booths where they had people entertaining as well, and or giving conference speeches or training events or whatever else to see how that is done differently than we have at NCSL or MSC is probably something if our board members on those different trade shows haven't been out to see other events. It doesn't have to be named just to see how other shows are run, just to get ideas and keep it fresh and keep it moving. I just think that would be a benefit to keeping that going for future.
Chuck (33:29):
I'm going to argue with you, Howard. I think the bigger problem we have with the shows is that the third party, Cal Labs are teaching technicians how to press buttons. We've had this conversation before. We
Howie (33:42):
Have to automate to be efficient, right? And
Chuck (33:45):
Profitable. The technicians, they're not going to the conference anymore. The middle managers not going to the conference anymore. The internet has ruined the conference and that's ruined the level of education that a lot of people have access to. And somehow we have to make those conferences more entertaining, more worthwhile, more training, if you will. Maybe. Basically that's what
Howie (34:07):
Was after with this, right? If we're going to have 'em make it better.
Chuck (34:11):
Yeah, I agree. And the product's got to be better than what it currently is. That's the problem.
Howie (34:17):
Agreed.
Chuck (34:18):
And so how do we teach and how do we as the community share that with the people who are managing these conferences? They're not going to listen to me. I'm a retired old fart now. They don't care what I say anymore. They care about Mitch. Mitch is the one that's got to speak up and say, Hey, let's do this now.
Mitchell (Mitch) (34:37):
Yeah, I wish I had an answer for that. I think since I've been in NCSL and NSC, I guess the first one was probably 2017 or so. I've certainly watched the attendance based upon certain cities, bigger, smaller, covid got in the way. Scheduling conflicts get in the way as we know the N-C-S-L-I and MSC. When they get too close together, it gets kind of challenging for a lot of people to get funding to go to both or one or the other. And not just from an attendee's perspective, but even just us as exhibitors. So it's becomes, we all work off of budgets and cycles. So I think that how do we make it better? I think you're right. I think there's going to be a lot of the longtime exhibitors and participants and sponsors probably going to have to get more engaged, probably going to have to maybe do some surveys to figure out what do we think can be more beneficial for everybody?
(35:31)
Because if we don't have enough people there, if we don't have exhibitors there, enough attendees there, then there's no reason for the conferences at all. And that's not what we want. Because then education in the community as a whole loses in that situation. Not us as Indie Soft, not NA pt, not trans candidates as the community of metrology loses, because this is our only opportunities in a mass way to provide education. So I think you're going to see probably what I hope to see is several more people from the third party industries in these software are included wanting and volunteering to participate more in these organizations. For sure. It is a big burden too, when you ask someone who's in a major Fortune 100 aerospace company or life sciences company to be taking time out of their schedule, their stockholders certainly can care less about the Measurement Science Conference or NCSI. So it is hard to allocate time. I recognize that. And actually, I'm very thankful for the hard work that a lot of my friends that are running the Measurement Science Conference and NCLL, I appreciate all the effort they do because that's all volunteer time too. Really appreciate it.
(36:39)
No doubt.
Chuck (36:40):
Well, we're starting to wind down on time, Howard, so we need to get one of your best questions of the day. Oh boy. Wind up for mention.
Howie (36:49):
Oh my gosh. I give all my best questions. I have nothing left to give except travel. Let's talk about travel.
Mitchell (Mitch) (36:57):
Travel, okay.
Howie (36:58):
Where is your favorite vacation spot? Where do I need to go next?
Mitchell (Mitch) (37:03):
Oh man. There's probably three or four places I've been in my life. It stand out as trips that I would do again and take anybody there. I think Costa Rica had a fantastic time. I went there. I'm like, love to go there. It was kind of an adventure. We flew into San Jose, we took a boat to get to some other boat to get onto a bus. Ended up at a resort kind of almost by Nicaragua. It was awesome. It was very adventurous. A lot of outdoors was awesome, but you also had the ocean and the temperatures. I think from a cultural enrichment standpoint, gosh, somewhere maybe Poland I think stands out to me. I had a great time and Warsaw, I had the opportunity to visit crackle. That's historical as well. I think one of the best places I've ever been in my life was Singapore.
(37:54)
Gosh, that was great. And that was actually an indie soft customer visit there, which was fantastic. And then going way, way back, I lived in Jordan, and I think that's one of the most prettiest countries I've ever been to. I had the opportunity to live in Aaba for a long time. And you have Petra, you have the Dead Sea, you that Wadi rum. So just some fantastic places. So I don't know if I was to catch in an elevator and you said unlimited travel budget, I'd probably throw at you if you haven't been to Jordan, if you haven't been to Singapore, Costa Rica. Those if you want. I think those would probably at the top of my list, Howard. That's awesome.
Howie (38:30):
Yeah. So what activities did you do in Costa Rica? I had a friend that went down there and did repelling down the trees that have kind of rotted up in the middle, but they're still stable.
Mitchell (Mitch) (38:39):
Yeah. So we did that. Well, not repelling the zip lining thing. It was kind of back before zip lining was all over everywhere. So I don't know how safe it was, but we did that and I fell in love with it. We did horseback riding. It was awesome. You do horseback riding in the United States and they're like, Hey, you can only go so fast. You can only kind of limit. You put a helmet on. I mean, I had this thing going. The guy was like, you got to get back here. You got to stop. And I had done some training with horses a long, long, long time ago. So even my wife was like, what are you doing? Get that. It was awesome. And trampling through the wood or the water, the ocean, it was awesome.
Howie (39:16):
So I've only ridden a horse a couple of times. My wife will tell you some funny things about us in the Poconos riding horses, but whatever. I think is it true that the trot is less comfortable than a full Gallup? Right? Gallup is pretty smooth. Oh yeah.
Mitchell (Mitch) (39:32):
So it's all a comfortable, actually, I don't think there's a comfortable boy than ride a horse, I think, in my opinion.
Chuck (39:38):
Well, that's not true. I used to ride a horse when I was young, and I'd rather go full bore than doing a trot because the trot, it hurts it, bounce
Mitchell (Mitch) (39:46):
It on the Yeah, no, you're right. Yeah,
Chuck (39:49):
Because
Mitchell (Mitch) (39:50):
When you ride, I was on my honeymoon, so I can't tell you how many cocktails I had. So I didn't feel any
Chuck (39:54):
That or that the horse had to ride the horse correctly. You got to ride the ride, you got to work the saddle. You got to have your body in the right position, and the horse goes up and down. So well, listen, Mitch, I promised you that I'd love to continue talking, but I made you a promise that we do a hard stop. I know that you got another sales call you got to go to. So we're going to call this a day, I think. And I personally can't thank you enough for taking part in our little podcast. Thank you so much. On behalf of the board, I can't thank you enough for being part of net. We're looking forward to more good things for you. And on a personal level, I'm looking forward to getting healthy again and kicking your ass on the golf course.
Howie (40:37):
There we go. So speaking of schedule conflicts with the conferences, right? NCSL this year is going to be end of July, Cleveland, Ohio, right? The Hilton, which is right on the heels of my annual golf outing, right? Four day event.
Mitchell (Mitch) (40:53):
Oh, right.
Howie (40:54):
So hopefully you guys can make it to that, and then we'll go to Cleveland after that.
Chuck (40:58):
So with that being said, I'd like to make my usual think our sponsor, any PT for O this and allowing us to give us this wonderful media to share education, our people in the metrology community. And always proficiency testing is the only way you can really measure your technical competency. So I'm telling you, sign up for it, do it yourself, but participate proficiency testing because you need to poo it. So with that being said, on the next podcast, and we will talk to you later.
Mitchell (Mitch) (41:30):
Sounds good.
Mitchell (Mitch) (41:31):
Bye.