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The Psychedelic Psychologist is a conversational-style podcast hosted by Dr. Ryan Westrum with clients and guests who use talk therapy to integrate Psychedelic experiences for healing and personal transformation. Tune in to hear people’s experiences, breakthroughs and stories of healing addiction, depression, and trauma through Psychedelics. Dr. Ryan Westrum gracefully and empathetically narrates real therapy sessions with people in their most vulnerable and transformational moments.
I would like to invite you to take
a moment, this moment where you're
able to recognize the bigger picture,
this moment, breathing in and
breathing out, allowing the magnitude
of this experience to be felt.
And as you're breathing in and breathing
out, I invite you to direct your
intention to the fact that we can't
understand everything, nor do we have
a potential answer for all of it.
Allowing your breath, your body.
And your emotional space to take
hold in the magnitude of the unknown.
Breathing in and breathing out, once
again, allowing your body to settle in
the mystery, continuing the breath in
and falling into the body.
Allowing this body to be trusted,
this experience to be landed.
Breathing in and breathing out.
Now finding grounding, connecting back
to this moment, and recognizing the
opportunity to expand into the unknown.
Hi, it's Ryan.
Welcome to your weekly Dose of the
Psychedelic Psychologist, where I
invite my guests to share stories
about their psychedelic experiences.
We cover a variety of topics
from overcoming addiction and
severe depression to finding
wholeness and spiritual emergence.
Today you're going to hear from one
of my guests who I've had a wonderful
opportunity of being together with.
And in this moment, I also want to
acknowledge the fact that I've taken a
little time off and walked away from the
podcast in order to incubate, to allow
things to reflect, and I'm profoundly
grateful to reconnect with all my guests.
Welcome.
Thank you.
How are you coming in today?
I'm coming in feeling pretty well.
Well, I've got a few nerves, but at
the end of the day and feeling good.
Well, it's natural and super normal
to have a little nerves as we're
talking about all things psychedelic.
Yeah, and you and I have spoken
together and we've been working
together for some time, and I want
to just dive deeply into the idea of.
In a way, the maintenance,
in a way, a reflection of a
relationship with this work.
Not the one and done.
Mm-hmm.
Not the, oh, everything is unicorns and
fluffy cotton candy, but rather what
it's like to practically work with this
medicine and how you relate to that.
Sounds good.
So tell me a little bit
about your relationship.
To psychedelic integration.
Now that you have had a handful of
experiences that you've been working with?
Well, I guess I've learned that
it, in my case, is always different
in terms of the experience.
, and then in terms of what you're
thinking about afterwards, Yeah.
Just you think you, you think you got it.
I think it's gonna go one way, and it,
and things are, things are different.
Yeah.
I talk a lot about, we do a, a
ridiculous amount of preparation, right?
Mm-hmm.
There's the idea that we build this
beautiful, very polished intention and
then we're given what is manifested.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Can you describe to me what has been
the difference from your intentions and
what has manifested personally and how
they've helped you heal and what you've
learned about in the differentiation
of intention and manifestation?
Yeah.
Well, I think the two times,
you know, that I've had the
opportunity with the mushrooms.
What sort of happened kind
of matched the intention.
So when I think about it afterwards,
I'm like, oh yeah, the first time
around was more just like exploring.
It's a new thing.
I'm a beginner and it was a
very wonderful three hours or
however long it was experienced.
And that my intention was
a lot about talking about
exploration and just wanting to.
Here's some ideas in my head that I
don't normally hear in normal life.
So this next time around was more
specific to where I am in my life
and some milestones that are coming
up based on the ages of kids.
And so it wa it was more focused on that.
But it was so, it was
a lot more intense and.
It was great.
It was intense and at times I was like,
you know, I think I'm, I think I'm done.
I think I've had enough, whereas the
first time, like I, you know, we can
just do this forever and I'm good
to go cuz it was just so pleasant.
But, and li and silent, whereas
this time was more intense.
There was a lot more discussion.
With my guide to, talk about
things as they were happening.
So it was, it was quite a bit different.
You, say something really beautiful
and what I hear from you is a deep
sense of humility is you're like,
okay, I'm gonna put this down now.
And, you know, there's a lot
of, grace in that isn't there
though, the acknowledgement that.
This isn't cut out for everybody, nor is
it cut out to be like a holding states
of consciousness that would be healthy to
be in at all given moments of the time.
Yeah, it would not be something that
I could, that I could do all the time.
It has to be a special moment
that I'm prepared for and you
know, I think there's definitely.
A big component in having help,
guidance and, and that, I think that
was key, especially since it was
more intense and I felt like I was a
bit more of a handful, where as, you
know, the first time being so gentle
and pleasant, it just was like it.
Hands off, kind of.
And this one really requires, that
thought that you're, that you
might have where you're like, Hey,
I can, you know, maybe I'll just
do, do this on my own sometime.
Which in this case, that
would've been, not pleasant.
Well, and not as useful probably.
Right.
And I apologize for interrupting.
Yeah.
This is a super important public
service announcement and a little bit
of a pivot, but without sounding like
a saltbox, I appreciate what you're
saying in your own integration process
and your own recognition of it being
a therapeutic experience is often I
hear that from people coming to my
integration treatment and therapy and
processing is, oh, I think I could
potentially do this work on my own.
What is it going to take?
To prepare myself.
Mm-hmm.
Would you say one of the things you've
learned about having a guide and
support and direction is, one, your
ability to let go, but also two, your
ability to know you're being held?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that was really key.
Yeah, just feeling.
Safe and that, I will
easily get out of this.
And that's maybe not the right way to
term it, I guess it's one way to term it.
And , yeah, just there would've
been quite a bit of anxiety and bad.
Probably some bad deci decisions
if I, if I was on my own.
And that was one thing different about
the second time being more intense, is
I felt like a lot of the, intellectual
portion of my brain was, was on break
for a while, which, which was nice.
At the same time, the decision
making on my, I wasn't making.
I wasn't in a position to make
like the most awesome decisions,
so, there's definitely a benefit
to not being on my own, you know?
Whereas the first time I felt like
in control a lot of the time, you
know, it was more gentle, but yeah.
Do you get the sense today as you're
sitting with some weeks and months
beyond the invitation that you're mm-hmm.
Understanding.
More of the nuances of the magnitude
of the experience, what, what was
taught to you, what you're walking
with, and how you're now practically
participating with your experiences?
Yeah, I think it, it's helped me
notice things in my life, kind
of notice what's going on and
maybe what, what needs to go on.
And those things that I notice when I do.
Noticed them.
They often seemed obvious or maybe even
something I had thought of previously
in, in some cases, but it, it just,
in my case as a, you know, as a father
who's has kids who are getting to
a milestone age, and, you know, it
just helped put the point home of, of
where I, how I can be with them and.
Help them.
What's the emotion coming up
right now as I hear your voice?
Oh, it's just when you, you know, happy,
but also there's, there's, there's
definitely sadness when you're thinking
about your kids who you've been with
since Infinity, it seems like, or that
you planned that it would always be
an infinite thing that, particular
phase is kind of winding down.
And so, you know, there's, there's,
there's a little bit of, it's bittersweet.
Bittersweet.
Sure.
And how does this reflect, if I may,
bring in the existential question, is
there an undercurrent now because of
these rights of passage, your children
are going through and witnessing your own
impermanence after an experience this big?
Has it changed the way you
see the rest of your life?
Is it providing you a little bit
more presence and mindfulness about
enjoying the moments you have?
I think so.
I think the answer is
definitely sometimes.
, we, I think it's easy to forget those
things as as life, as the day goes on.
But it, it's definitely a thought
that, that, that has been in my
mind just based on the age of, of,
of everyone in my life, so sure.
Could we pivot to what
do we do with this now?
Having worked with you as long as I
have, and knowing you've had experiences
both with the mushroom and M D M A.
What has started to become your awareness
of how you hold these medicines?
When is it appropriate and fit for you?
Because after an intense
experience, I know all too well.
Sometimes it's like, okay, let's
put that on the shelf and mm-hmm.
Let it come to me rather
than me go seeking it.
Whereas good experiences, everyone's kind
of like salivating to do it once again.
Mm-hmm.
How are you, making sense of it
for your own personal journey?
Well, I definitely have an intuition
that there needs to be some, length of
time between, Between these experiences,
although when an experience is done for
me, there has always been a moment of
like, ah, it's all, you know, it's done.
And that was really cool and I wanna,
and I'm like, oh, I wanna do it, do
it again is maybe an initial reaction.
But I, it's something that, that.
Can't, that needs, needs to have
some, some time in between both for
just fi you have to find the right
moment where you're gonna have the,
the time and, and so forth to do it.
You know, you can't just kind of do it
on a whim, but just, I would think if
I did this every couple weeks that I
would probably, It would probably be
hard to make sense of each experience.
So I always am looking forward to a new
experience and sort of thinking about it.
But, but yeah, there's, there's
definitely some downtime
between that's needed for sure.
Yeah.
And that, that brings up what
I was alluding to kind of in my
introduction of this is my innate.
Feeling I'm hearing from you
is this idea of incubating.
If, if we don't allow things to
incubate or have a pause, it can mm-hmm.
Almost be that we're too in it too much.
Right.
And specifically with psychedelics, if
we're in it too much, we can't really see
what we're working on and what states.
I often say of consciousness are we, or
what are the traits of who we really are.
Right.
I really try to make a definitive decision
on is this a trait of who I am that
I'm walking with without the medicine?
Mm-hmm.
Or is this a state of consciousness
that I'm in because of the factor
that I have medicine experiences
that are now like walking with me?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I think you hit it on the head.
I.
Find it useful just to have these
experiences in, you know, my back pocket,
so to speak, that I think about at
random times, you know, in daily life.
You know, whether it's like an idea of
something I thought of at the time or
just thinking about the experience as
a whole and how you know, it's great.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
The, the, and hearing your, your vantage
point really gives me a sigh of relief
and a breath of fresh air at the same time
that, you know, challenging experiences,
be it, high doses of psilocybin can be
minding and very precarious and, but yeah.
The integration of what you're
doing, has what sounds like really
formulated your reassurance in even
the harder elements of this work?
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah.
Even though this one was, was not as
quote unquote pleasant or it was more
challenging, there is no, feelings of
like, oh, I sh that wasn't useful, or,
I shouldn't have done that, or, yeah.
So saying that, as you know me all too
often is bringing back the gentleness.
So knowing it was challenging,
knowing it was, as you said,
not necessarily pleasant.
You're doing this wonderful
work of integration.
How are you being gentle with
yourself on a daily basis?
,I, I would say, My thing that I try
to do, which is a tough one, but it's
just, trying to notice things, you know?
And, you know, I think about sometimes my,
my default way of going up the stairs is
like bounding every two steps, you know?
And I try to be like, okay, let's
just walk up the stairs normally and
think about what's going on right now
when you're walking up the stairs.
You know, it just, it just makes
things more real and enjoyable and you,
you're noticing what's going on with
yourself and not thinking so much about
what I want to be doing, and maybe
I don't want to be doing right now.
So I love that.
It's so wonderful to hear your voice,
and I'm so profoundly grateful for that
expression, that idea of slowing down
the bounding over step by step, but
recognizing it as a one step after another
is such a wonderful picture to envision.
Thank you.