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HR entrepreneur Mike Coffey, SPHR, SHRM-SCP engages business thought leaders about the strategic, psychological, legal, and practical implications of bringing people together to create value for shareholders, customers, and the community. As an HR consultant, mentor to first-stage businesses through EO’s Accelerator program, and owner of Imperative—Bulletproof Background Screening, Mike is passionate about helping other professionals improve how they recruit, select, and manage their people. Most thirty-minute episodes of Good Morning, HR will be eligible for half a recertification credit for both HRCI and SHRM-certified professionals. Mike is a member of Entrepreneurs Organization (EO) Fort Worth and active with the Texas Association of Business, the Fort Worth Chamber, and Texas SHRM.
So the workforce is demanding the performance model, which is what am I worth? Where's my skill sets? I don't wanna work more than I have to over those skill sets, which I completely understand. That's what the value in them. And then you have businesses there are performing on the presence model, the very traditional get 40 hours of work in.
Kelly Bubolz:You have to be in the office. I wanna see your status as green. And that's where the conflict is coming in where we can't we keep addressing the symptoms of manning, but we're not addressing the root cause that people don't wanna work like that anymore.
Mike Coffey:Good morning, HR. I'm Mike Coffey, president of Imperative, bulletproof background checks with fast and friendly service. And this is the podcast where I talk to business leaders about bringing people together to create value for shareholders, customers, and the community. Please follow rate and review Good Morning HR where ever you get your podcast. You can also find us on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, or at goodmorninghr.com.
Mike Coffey:If there's a single word that describes the zeitgeist of the workforce in 2024, it may be burnout. I see it expressed in online discussion groups, when I'm speaking at conferences, or just when I'm talking to other business leaders. According to a 2023 Aflac study, 57% of workers rated their burnout as moderate, high, or very high. This is 9 points higher than reported in 2021. And before you say, just let everyone work remote, study suggests that burnout may be just as high or even higher for remote employees.
Mike Coffey:To discuss what's causing this burnout, its effect on organizations, and how to address it in your organization is Kelly Bubolz. Kelly is a motivational and professional speaker, author, and trainer with almost 2 decades of strategic leadership in human resources. She owns KB Training Connections, where she works with organizations to engage energy and productivity while preventing burnout. Welcome to Good Morning HR, Kelly.
Kelly Bubolz:Good morning.
Mike Coffey:So when people say they're burned out, I mean, that's like, you know, a thing that is unique to every person. But what are they generally talking about when someone says I'm burned out?
Kelly Bubolz:Yeah. And I definitely, know what you're saying there because there are people that say it when they're stressed. And then there are people that are saying it that it's actually a cry for help. And the big difference is temporary versus chronic. So stress is temporary.
Kelly Bubolz:It might have a busy week. It might be end of month. It might be your q4 benefit season. That's temporary. You can get through it and then it's done.
Kelly Bubolz:Burnout is chronic stress. So you get through benefit season and then it's hiring season. Then it's career fairs. Then it's manning planning. Then you go into turnover and so on and so forth.
Kelly Bubolz:And we'd keep saying just another quarter. Just another year. We'll get through this and it doesn't succeed. So that puts us into this survivorship mode and it gets you into this burnout state in which physically, cognitively, emotionally, and relationships, you start to see the effects. And you start to go down this downward spiral into the darkness.
Mike Coffey:And it's interesting that you broke that up in quarters because one of the things you know, I've owned my business for 25 years, and one of the cycles I we're in is that we were we do our annual planning, but then we have quarterly, you know, full senior staff meetings where we plan out the next quarter. And I'm protective of my people. And so I'm the I often overpack my commitments for the quarter, to make sure everybody gets the little piece they need of me to do what they do. Because, you know, it's just a little piece, but there's enough there's not that much of me. So I often think I find like right now, I'm finding myself saying, okay.
Mike Coffey:Well, I was at a conference all week last week. I'm going to Portland later this week for another conference. And then at the end of June, I've got, you know, 2 weeks of of time out to for a family trip. How am I gonna get all this done? I just gotta get I've just gotta get through to the end of the quarter.
Mike Coffey:But I know come July 1st, we're gonna have a whole new another quarter. And I love what I do, but there are times where even, you know for somebody who's kind of in charge of their own calendar and their own priorities, I still get that. If not burnout, I'm definitely getting a dark tan.
Kelly Bubolz:And I think part of it is exactly what you said is, you keep adding more and you're adding it during a season that doesn't have the capacity to do more. And that's exactly how we burn out as we've lost this. We might have the passion for what we do, but we're losing the energy because we're not managing it correctly.
Mike Coffey:Yeah. I think and and, you know, they we always talk we we've spoken recently several times about emotional intelligence and that self regulation part. You always think about self regulation as it as it relates to other people and how you respond to other people or circumstances. But I think one of, like, you know, especially for me, I think for a lot of entrepreneurial types, but a lot of high performing leaders too. The self regulation of saying no or saying, you know, saying that's not a commitment I I can make is a trap we fall into.
Mike Coffey:Anybody who's a people pleaser. And it's and how many times have we heard, if you wanna get something done, give it to the busiest person that you know, and they will find a way to get it done. That's probably true, but it probably wears the tread pretty thin on their tires too.
Kelly Bubolz:Yeah. And that's why we don't delegate either is I can just do it faster than myself. I know it's done. I know it's done right. It feels good to get something off your list, but what we're not accounting for is, the actual reality that we live in in HR, which means, yes, you're in benefit season.
Kelly Bubolz:Yes. You have strategic planning for manning the next year. But what you're not accounting for is conflict that's coming up in your workforce. What you're not accounting for is turnover that might happen. All those walk ins and the people in your office.
Kelly Bubolz:So we're continually stressed by symptoms, but we're not addressing the root cause, which is our own energy management.
Mike Coffey:And, you know, for HR folks like that, the more admin roles, you know, the leadership roles where they've got kind of control over your calendar and all that. I can see us overcommitting or having you know, now I think often it's a a matter of leadership not understanding what's already are on our plate and whoever's being handed this extra task, this extra assignment, not saying, okay. So let's have a conversation around what do you want to let slip so that we can get this other thing done. But what about your your frontline employees? When we hear, you know, just employees who are, you know, in frontline, you know, hospitality service or, on a production line where things haven't really changed.
Mike Coffey:I mean, it's it's it's, like, it seems like it's, you know, they're they've got a consistent pace of work, and the work's coming in usually pretty steadily. What's causing burnout there? How do why why are those folks because there's there's days where I think, oh, wow. That sounds I it would be so nice to just to spend a week just working on a factory line, just putting and tab a or and doing that kind of thing.
Kelly Bubolz:Yeah. And it's interesting because I work across industry. So I'm from manufacturing. That's where my my, bread and butter come from. Low low budgets, low people, sense of chaos, and how do we work through it.
Kelly Bubolz:But as I got to other industries, hospitality, so we're talking hotels, restaurants, getting to those associations and I'm finding out it's not that bad in manufacturing. Where it's bad is the service side because you have communities that are really struggling and they're taking it out on employees. Whereas in more of the business side, there's a sense of professional professionalism and you hold each other accountable for that professionalism. In hospitality, you're kinda at the mercy of your customer and they're getting beat up. And so if I would say when I go to conferences and work with clients where people are really struggling is in that hospitality restaurant business and then also what you said in the beginning which was remote workers.
Kelly Bubolz:So I think it's because there are so much doing that they can never progress. There's so much underwater that they don't feel like they can breathe anymore. And day after day, it's the same thing. Same with remote workers ice they're isolated. They're alone.
Kelly Bubolz:And I think we kinda forgot that they're in this low darkness category and there hasn't been a lot of support to get them out because they just had to pick up and keep the desks. Someone has to service these desks. Someone has to deliver the food. And with the manning shortages, they're on a whole different hurdle game than the rest of us. So it's interesting when you get out to other industries.
Kelly Bubolz:It's not comp when you compare yourself to others, I think that the narrative can be very different versus focusing on industry specific challenges. So when we say people are burnt out, I would say it's very specific to each industry. The the industry that I was amazed by was the nonprofit. They have always been in survivorship. They depend on each other.
Kelly Bubolz:They know what they can afford, what they can't afford, what they have time for, what they don't have time for, and they will always project for interruptions and distractions. So they are very well oiled and you get out to these other industries that have been put into a sense of chaos with no support, no time to breathe, and they're struggling. So I've taken some tips from the nonprofit industry on communication and collaboration and time management and I've started applying those to other industries. And it it all goes down to what we've been talking about is we're not applying our day and taking control of our week with all the interruptions and distractions that have come into this world. We're acting like it was before.
Mike Coffey:And so what do you think is that different? I mean, are we talking about all the changes that happened in 2020? Or what do you think what do you think that change in the workforce in the overall environment is that's leading to this being 9 points higher than it was 2021 when we were all just coming we're all just, you know, glad to to see people in person and glad to be back at the at the office for some, you know, for some of us anyway.
Kelly Bubolz:I think, there's several factors. One is the world is moving faster than it has been. Technology is advancing faster. So you think about I'm learning Excel. I'm learning this new Excel tip now.
Kelly Bubolz:You're learning like a new software every couple months and integrations between software. That's how fast it's moving. The virtual nature of workforces is causing that to move fast as well. You're talking about manning shifts. So because there's so much opportunity, people are moving more than they will were before.
Kelly Bubolz:So you're not looking for a 15 year, 10 year, or loyal employee. You're looking for how much can I get out this person in 2 years? But what's interesting is that symptom talk. We're talking about turnover and manning and all the work that goes into it but we're not addressing the root cause. What do we need that manning for?
Kelly Bubolz:You're addressing that manning like you have 15 years with them. Instead of addressing the manning like I have 2 years for them, what is their skill set that I'm hiring them for? And that's the shift and that's that paradigm of HR that gets exhausting is we're trying to move to more of a performance model and businesses are still approaching it with a presence model. I need 8 hours of work from this person. Do you really need 8 hours or do you just need these things to be done?
Kelly Bubolz:So the workforce is demanding the performance model which is what am I worth? Where's my skill sets? I don't wanna work more than I have to over those skill sets which I completely understand. That's what the value in them. And then you have businesses there are performing on the presence model, the very traditional get 40 hours of work in.
Kelly Bubolz:You have to be in the office. I wanna see your status as green. And that's where the conflict is coming in where we can't. We keep addressing the symptoms of manning, but we're not addressing the root cause that people don't wanna work like that anymore.
Mike Coffey:And I think there I think the technology stuff is a is a really key point because I think there's I used to be the guy in any workplace or in most environments who was on top of all the technology and was the cutting edge kid with all the new ideas and all that. And now I'm, you know, I'm lucky enough to have people who do that. And then they're dragging me along sometimes. But just the the energy depletion, the cognition depletion of of constantly learning new things, and I think it's not just age on my part, even wears me down some. And so when we're asking employees to, you know, oh, we're implementing this AI tool, and it's gonna feed you this information this much faster.
Mike Coffey:Or, you know, or these these tasks that you used to be able to do, that would give you a little breathing room maybe. Now those the easy things are getting done for you, and we're just handing you the complex problem. So you're you're spending a lot more time doing deep work, which, you know, depending on your energy level and what's going on in your life and met me on and mental cognition and all those things. You may not be able to give that that sustained 8 hour, 9 hour effort that you you might have with if it's broken up with more general tasks.
Kelly Bubolz:Yeah. And it kind of, asks a question, Mike, of where are we spending in our time? And I think that's where we're losing energy when I go in from a third party of you're going to organizations and I ask what is this person supposed to be working on? You will get 3 different answers from across departments. That's where the energy is lost because no matter what one person does, they're not meeting expectations of another person.
Kelly Bubolz:And so when I go into organizations, I start working on this energy management. We get really aligned and clear about the value each person's skill set is bringing and we focus on that and you will start to see that energy start to flow across departments because everyone has a job instead of just doing a job. And that is the big difference in energy manage management is yes we have to work and we had to pay our bills. We have to run a business but somehow over the decades it's lost this passion. You know, this this passion in American businesses of why we do the things we do, the purpose behind it.
Kelly Bubolz:And we have some smart talented people coming into the workforce right now, and I see them demanding that. So that's why I try to fight the traditional workforce management and go into this performance model because it focuses around energy and what people like to do, and then you can shut off because your work is done.
Mike Coffey:Yeah. And there when I was coming you know, I'm, Jen x. And when I was coming up, how I, you know, was 6 whatever the Michael j Fox movie was, you know, how how was successful in business or whatever. It was that grind culture, that Wall Street culture, and that was really glamorized in the late eighties, early nineties that, you know, always be grinding and you and I think there's still a lot of logic to doing that at some level in your twenties when you're young and maybe don't have all the attachments that will stop you from doing that later to, you know, to get the skins on the wall, the, you know, the chinks on your belt or whatever, so that you can move into the positions you wanna move in eventually. And so that you're more competitive.
Mike Coffey:But I think more and more, and I'm I've got 3 young adult, children who none of whom have embraced the grind culture like my generation did. So I think there may be some a difference in expectations maybe between leadership that's gen x or older and maybe the especially the millennials and gen z generation.
Kelly Bubolz:Yeah. And you're gonna continue to see that generational shift because they saw their parents just working and grinding and exhausted. And and that's how I grew up and that's how I burnt out as well is that productivity guilt. You can't take a nap. That's lazy.
Kelly Bubolz:That's a big waste of time. Work validation. If you're not working and providing value and earning every single dollar, what are you doing? So I would fill any space instead of providing just maybe more quality work. I would just fill it.
Kelly Bubolz:And I just wanted, high output of production at all all points in time. And and eventually, I burnt out. And you see that a lot with HR people probably because they're people pleasers is that if I have time, I'm gonna fill it. And sometimes, you just need to give yourself time to think and and back up for a second and go to conferences and network with your HR community and listen to good morning HR and and expand your mind in our own trade. And I see this in my local SHRM chapter as well as people leave halfway because they have to go back to work.
Kelly Bubolz:And it's a learning moment of the month to expand your HR skill set. And I and I was was that too. There's no judgment there. But then I realized when you back up and give that space, you actually are providing higher quality value of work. You really find your purpose of what HR brings to the table.
Kelly Bubolz:You get a seat at the table. You know how to find so much value in the outcome that you can get a budget for training instead of just doing. And I think that whole saying of we are human beings. We're not human doers. You know, we're not human robots is really important in this energy management framework that I talk about because we're just doing things to do things.
Kelly Bubolz:Is it really providing a value?
Mike Coffey:Okay. So I gotta ask, what's your home SHERM chapter?
Kelly Bubolz:Fox Valley in Appleton, Wisconsin.
Mike Coffey:Shout out to Fox Valley SHERM. Okay. Good. I'm on this Texas State Council here in in Texas and, I'm SHRM is my favorite group in the world. So they do a lot of good.
Mike Coffey:But you're right. I I talk to other HR professionals here in town and I speak at a lot of conferences and people will say, especially when I'm speaking at a SHRM luncheon or at a conference, somebody will say, I'm gonna have to step out the last 15 minutes to go make a phone call or something like that. And I can't even get away. And I think it seems that many employers are increasingly resistant to allowing their employees, you know, it's not just lunch. It's 30 or 40 minutes beforehand, 30 minutes, 40 minutes after to, you know, for travel and whatever else.
Mike Coffey:And there and employers aren't in some cases, they don't seem to be seeing the value of of of that engagement with your peers, of that education, and maybe that that disconnect. And I think, especially with your nonexempt population, the idea that, you know, a lot of employers and maybe a lot of nonexempt employees still have this idea that I gotta be if I'm if I'm on the clock and they're paying me, you know, that's this isn't a job where I, you know, where I can just go home early and still get paid if I you know, when I get everything done. And so with a nonexempt employee or in that employee base, it's nonexempt. How would you suggest, an employer change their mindset to help reduce that burnout feeling from from those employees?
Kelly Bubolz:Yeah. And I I felt that. It's that presence again. Presence over performance. And I think with anything and we I I just worked with a client with their salespeople because they were gone a lot for conferences.
Kelly Bubolz:I said, what's the objective of them being at these trade shows? And they're they're like, can't really answer that. And that's what kinda triggered me to think, okay. If I'm an HR person, I can't get out. They gave me a membership, but I can't get out for events where I have to leave at the event or my laptop's open during the event, which is common in my group.
Kelly Bubolz:Right. What is the objective of you being there? And that and then are you giving space for this HR person or anyone when they get back to your organization to present that material? Because other people can learn off of that. And when you get out of those cinder block walls, when you get out of that remote work and you get in that community, that's where ideas thrive and that's where that energy exchange happens.
Kelly Bubolz:And so that's that that's probably what I would say is what is the intent of you attending, and who can you present that to when you get back?
Mike Coffey:That's good. Yeah. And that the take back is and and that's a different kind of mental engagement for those roles and something that you can only, you know, sharpen the saw a little bit by having to, you know, teach it, but also to engage with your peers in a different way. And let's take a quick break. Good morning.
Mike Coffey:HR is brought to you by Imperative, bulletproof background checks with fast and friendly service. For many employers, any review of a candidate's social media profile is taboo. That is a privacy line they are simply unwilling to cross. But within the confines of title 7 and other anti discrimination laws, a candidate's off duty conduct, including how they conduct themselves on social media, may be relevant. For example, if the employee engages in illegal or negligent conduct on the job that might have been predictable and therefore preventable, had the employer simply reviewed the publicly available information about them on the Internet, the plaintiff's lawyers will certainly be using that information in a negligent hiring suit.
Mike Coffey:For some positions, threatening, coercive, or bigoted online behavior may be a legitimate concern. In other instances, references to personal drug use or criminal behavior may be relevant. Imperative helps clients conduct necessary online due diligence while building guardrails around the process to ensure that irrelevant or potentially discriminatory information isn't provided to decision makers. You can learn more about the many ways imperative helps our clients make well informed decisions about the people they involve in their business atimperativeinfo.com. If you're an HRCI or SHRM certified professional, this episode of Good Morning HR has been preapproved for 1 half hour of recertification credit.
Mike Coffey:To obtain the recertification information, visit goodmorninghr.com and click on research credits. Then select episode 151 and enter the keyword burnout. That's b u r n o u t. And now back to my conversation with Kelly Buboltz. What do you think the main, you know, just to clarify, what do you think the cost to business or to the organization is from this burnout?
Kelly Bubolz:Well, I know Gallup's research has said 30% of someone's salary is your turnover costs in the in the white collar professions. Even more if it's a leader because if a leader leaves it is more likely that team members leave. I think with the shift of the workforce going from 10 year to that 2 year time frame, we're not really capturing people's true value in that 2 years thinking we have more time. So I think it's more than 30%. And that's what I've trained some HR peers on for getting training budgets because they get maybe a 5 gram budget for 50 leaders for the whole year.
Kelly Bubolz:They haven't gotten trained in 5 years. It's doable. Is it effective? Probably not. And I told them what if one of those leaders leaves?
Kelly Bubolz:What happens? Calculate that. Calculate your cost of hire. How much training and onboarding and recruitment cost goes into that? How much time you're spending on that?
Kelly Bubolz:And you you'll see budgets appear that we should address it as a preventative instead of a reactive to a disciplinary situation. And I think that approach puts, you know, money and numbers to the table in which businesses understand.
Mike Coffey:Yeah. And I've had this conversation with HR consulting clients over the years. Let's say your average tenure is 2 years. The raw value of turning that to 3 years is gigantic. Mhmm.
Mike Coffey:And if and then if you can keep well beyond that, that's even better. But, you know, just that that, you know, 50% increase in, in in somebody's tenure has giant dollar value to it. Both on the productivity side, the institutional knowledge building side and and transfer, and just, you know, the raw cost of replacing that person just being deferred is is is really high. So, so we wanna fix the problem. We see the problem.
Mike Coffey:You know, we've got employees who aren't as productive as they could be because they've just got this mental fatigue. They're not as engaged. They're probably not as cooperative with their their fellow employees, and any and it's, you know, erodes it's probably eroding the team. So we wanna fix that. What is as as a leader in an organization from the CEO, you know, across the, the the c suite?
Mike Coffey:What should we be paying attention to, and what kind of processes ought we be putting in place to really to alleviate some of the burnout and do whatever we need to build that energy back up in in in the workforce.
Kelly Bubolz:Yeah. And I'm gonna address past the onboarding new hire training side and where people are actually producing work and bringing value back to the organization. I would say the focus would be on time management. What are they working on that provides the most value? Everything else is noise and distraction.
Kelly Bubolz:If there's time, great. Otherwise, automate it, systemize it. It doesn't need to be here anymore especially with the technology that's available. Cross department communication would be the other the other one. So much time is wasted by bitter banter back and forth.
Kelly Bubolz:I can't find files. Someone has files in 3 different places. Again, all wasted time. And this is this is what gets exhausting as human beings is you're spending all this decision decision making in a fatigue state of just searching for information. So so clarity in that time management, what are people supposed to be working on, brings so much life back to your organization.
Kelly Bubolz:And that sounds simple, but it's kind of these octopus arms that you start diving into and find out all the noise that's going on in your organization. But all that noise is causing the energy to be wasted instead of used in working the business.
Mike Coffey:So making sure employees are doing those things at their highest and best purpose and use, you know, of their skills. And then I I you called it communication, but I am we've got an organizational file management system. Right? And everybody with it except for me, and it causes grief because, you know, I I know I created this file. I was on the airplane, and I wrote this blog post that we were gonna put up.
Mike Coffey:And now it could be in half a dozen different places on my computer or on the cloud someplace. And that's a self discipline problem, but I I I can imagine and and, you know, we've got 22 employees, but I can imagine in a much larger organization, you know, just a few people like me would create just wood chaos in trying to find find the files, get the information I need, have it formatted, and and and all of those things that, like you say, take time and, you know, that's why we have, you know, processes. That's why we have standards of of product and stuff. But just trying to get everybody on the same page in a larger organization takes a lot more planning.
Kelly Bubolz:Yeah. And and really just less is more. There's so much noise and, you know, everyone should be in alignment with what we should be working on, what we're working towards, what we're spending time on, what is our side project list, and it should be checked in often and aligned across departments. And and this all came from Mike, a project that I worked on with a machine group, and we had high turnover, high safety costs. And I I asked them if I could just watch them for 2 hours.
Kelly Bubolz:And there was so much time wasted finding tools, cleaning up lubricant over and over again because the machine was broken. And I would not work there for 15 minutes. And these gentlemen were working there for 12 hours a day. And it cleared a lot for me to say we sometimes we don't have the right tools, right file locations that that's where our energy is going instead of actually providing value back. So we can focus on the drainers or we can focus on the energizers.
Kelly Bubolz:The drainers will work themselves out.
Mike Coffey:Yeah. So making sure things work like they do. They're supposed to that everybody knows what their role is.
Kelly Bubolz:Mhmm.
Mike Coffey:And using technology. And I've got presentations. In fact, we've got a webinar that was on the day that this podcast is released, was yesterday, on on the the ethical and practical uses of AI in HR. And I think that's gonna be as much as there's a lot of fear around that, I think it's mostly it's generally gonna be a really positive thing because it's going to free your especially your HR reps, your HR generalists, and and your business partners up to do the things that they do best, the things that bring most value to the organization, and take away a lot you know, especially once we have great AI that can do employee self-service and those kinds of things. So those those same questions that you answer over and over again and, you know, if an employee can hit a chatbot that gives them the right answer without picking up the phone, and they can do it at 7 o'clock on a Saturday night if they need the answer, those things are gonna make a giant difference in the HR world.
Mike Coffey:And I can imagine across almost especially in in the office environment, the impact of AI is gonna be generally that kind of positivity. I think we're a long way from, you know, people losing their jobs. I just think their jobs are gonna change dramatically, probably for
Kelly Bubolz:the best. Yeah. I I agree. There's some, local companies that are moving to I don't wanna say cloud based HR, but hub HR groups. But all they're moving is your general basic function.
Kelly Bubolz:So payroll questions, you know, where do I find my w two? Those type of things are being shifted, which is the noise, the energy drainers so that we can work on people management and performance management and student programs. And I think that's fantastic because that's the noise that's going away.
Mike Coffey:Yeah. That'll be perfect. So any last thoughts on the macro workforce as how how we approach them as as organizations to to help alleviate this burnout or things that maybe just individuals ought to be doing besides you know, we talked about, you know, paying attention to their own time management.
Kelly Bubolz:Yeah. I think that the best option would be to do a brainstorm session in which you would watch if you would wash the slate clean, what would you have your people working on that would support the business and then everything else you place thereafter. And you will see the energy return because it's the noise, it's the energy drainers that is dragging us all down. And this world will keep changing, this world will keep going. Stress has been here, stress always be, you won't fix that.
Kelly Bubolz:But I think it's what we work on for those 40 hours a week or remotely that will make or break while you stay with the company, make or break why you stay in HR, why you don't stay in HR. And I I want to guide people through that energy management because we got into these passions for a reason. It's the noise that came in and started draining us.
Mike Coffey:So it's it's really kind of Stephen Covey's the the I hold that whole concept of the big rocks first, and the small rocks will fill in around it.
Kelly Bubolz:Yeah.
Mike Coffey:That's great. Well, so and it goes back to, you know, timeless classics, wisdoms that we wisdom that we've known and but haven't always incorporated into our lives the way we we should. We've maybe lost track some of that. Well, thank you, Kelly. That's all the time we have, but I really appreciate you joining me today.
Kelly Bubolz:Yeah. Thanks for having me.
Mike Coffey:And thank you for listening. You can comment on this episode or search our previous episodes at goodmorninghr.com or on Facebook, Instagram, or YouTube. And don't forget to follow us wherever you get your podcast. Rob Upchurch is our technical producer, and you can reach him at robmakespods.com. And thank you to Imperative's marketing coordinator, Mary Anne Hernandez, who keeps the trains running on time.
Mike Coffey:And I'm Mike Coffey. As always, don't hesitate to reach out if I can be of service to you personally or professionally. I'll see you next week, and until then, be well, do good, and keep your chin up.