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Being STRONG is more than just how much weight you can lift.
The Strong New York Podcast is dedicated to inspiring you to become your strongest self- in the gym, in business, in relationships and in life.
Join Kenny as he sits down with his strong as fuck buddies and shoots the shit on what it takes to be strong willed, strong minded and physically strong. Season one features everyone from entrepreneurs and local business owners to doctors and industry leaders in the fitness and wellness space.
With over a decade of experience, Kenny Santucci has made himself known as one of New York City’s top trainers and a thought leader in the health and wellness industry. After transforming his life at 15 years old through fitness, Kenny made it his mission to transform the lives of those around him.
Kenny has trained some of Hollywood’s biggest stars, including Jon Bon Jovi, Liev Schreiber, and Frank Ocean, and has been tapped as a fitness expert sharing his training approach with Men’s Health, Men’s Journal, Runner's World, SHAPE, Well+Good, among other publications.
Kenny is the creator of STRONG New York, NYC's only Health and Fitness Expo. Strong New York is an immersive day of workouts, wellness experiences, panel discussions, and inspiring conversations with the best in-class wellness professionals, industry leaders, and change makers who are sharing their expertise on today's hottest wellness trends and first-hand experiences on how to optimize your overall health and life.
You can find Kenny at The Strength Club, his private training and group strength training facility in the heart of Manhattan located on 28th and 5th Ave in New York City.
I was sentenced to 37 and a half to life. It took 29 for Governor Kathy Hochul to be able to see who I was and say, "Open up the door for him." It took 29 years of consistently doing the right thing. Yeah. But oftentimes what I found is this. When a person is at that point where they're like, "I'm sick and tired of it, I'm about to give up," those people that are able to push just past that are the ones who become successful.
At 23 years old, Bruce Bryant was wrongfully accused of a crime and spent the next 29 years of his life incarcerated. I didn't learn until 20 years later- Yeah ... that my prosecutor was crooked and he winded up going to prison. My lawyer had a civil suit against New York City, and it was on the record that he said, "I can't defend clients."
His next client was Bruce Bryant for a high-profile murder case. You had the perfect storm of bullshit against you. The perfect recipe for a wrongful conviction. Yeah. That has got to be the scariest fucking thing I think anyone could ever deal with. How alone did you feel? You feel very much alone, no matter how much family support, no matter how many loved ones you have.
If you could sum up your definition of the strength you need to endure a hard life, how would you sum it up?
Bruce, welcome to the show, buddy. Yes. Thank you so much for joining us here on the Strong New York podcast. Um, you know, I hear your story. You know, we met a couple weeks ago when you came in, and I hear your story, and I'm like, "That has got to be the scariest fucking thing I think anyone could ever deal with."
You know, you're 23 years old. Take us back to that point in your life. What was going on? You know, because when something like that happens in your life, you're like... You start to, as a man, wanna take full responsibility. You're like, "What did I do wrong?" Mm-hmm. "Why did this happen?" Mm-hmm. Because growing up, my parents and my grandparents were always like, "God works in mysterious ways.
This happened for a reason." At 23 years old, how the fuck do you process that? What does that look like? Thanks for having me, man, first- Of course ... and foremost. And strong as fuck is everything that, you know, everything I try to embody. Mm-hmm. So this, being here means a great deal to me. Thank you so much. Um, and that's an interesting question you asked, what was that like at 23?
Well, the whole idea of things happening for a reason, and, and that reason being something good, forget about that- ... at 23 years old. Yeah, yeah. Um, at 23 years old, you know, fear, anger, um, despair, just... You know, the pain is just, is immense. Um, and then imagine every time I go to court, my sister's there. She's a court officer at the time, in the same court in Queens.
My mother's there, and she's steady saying, "My brother didn't do this" to everyone. Um- It's some- it's, it's a nightmare, man. It is a nightmare going through that process. Um, now keep in mind, I grew up on the Lower East Side before I, my family migrated to move to Queens. Mm-hmm. My mother and father migrated from the Caribbean.
My father's from Antigua, as well as my older siblings. Um, and my mother's from Dominica. So they came into the city in maybe '68, 1968, and I was born in '69. So I grew up on the Lower East Side, where that was filled with substance abuse, the whole ghetto, um, everything you can find in the ghetto, from drugs, pimps, you know, pushers, people getting high.
So you've seen a lot of this stuff as a young kid. Um, you don't really know how to process this, but you know that this is a part of living in, um, in these tenement buildings downtown. You don't really know the difference between poverty and wealth. Yeah. That's all you really know. That's all you really know.
Yeah. I, you know, I relate to that. I grew up in Newark, New Jersey, and as a kid, it's hard to process that anybody lives any other way. Mm-hmm. You know there's other money out there. You know people have a better life than you, but it's hard to fathom that as a child. Absolutely. It's hard to fathom unless you see it, unless you actually have that encounter.
And my mother, you know, my mother was... You know, she did odd jobs, worked in factory. My father worked in a place called Harmony Club as a waiter. Mm-hmm. Um, up until his, his death, until his retirement and then him passing away in 2017. So you see all of this, and again, as a young person hustling the streets, I've been in trouble before, but never in my life do you fathom being in front of a judge and being tried for a murder.
Mm-hmm. My- you know what comes with that, which is a life sentence. September 26 at the Glass House, do not forget, Strongny, it's our 10th anniversary. Think of the food and wine festival, Comic-Con, the boat show, the car show, but this is the fitness version of it. Do not miss out. Strongny, our 10th anniversary, September 26 at the Glass House.
Go to strongny.com and get your tickets today. Um, you can't imagine being arrested and charged for taking so- a young person's life at that in a drug-related shooting. Mm-hmm. Um. Grow- we're just around it, though. Mm-hmm. We hear about it every day, all the time. People are so quick to pull a gun or a knife or to hit somebody, and I think most people don't understand- The weight of that.
Mm-hmm. And how that's gonna affect your life forever. Forever. But you know, as a young person, we fought. I had three older brothers. Yeah. Two older sisters. So we always, we, we knuckled up. Mm-hmm. Back in my days, and um, and I'm 56 now, so coming up, we knuckled up. And when the death of Travis Lee happened on October 30th, 1993, stray bullets hitting young people or hitting people wasn't very common.
Mm. It became common 15, 20 years later with a lot of the young, um, young gang members and stuff happening across New York City, and across the country. Yeah. That wasn't common back then. So imagine the media sensationalism, um, putting this in the posts. Just imagine, you know, all the madness that came along with that at that time.
Um- This was a pretty publicized case. Pretty publicized case, which made it even more fearful. Mm-hmm. And more scarier for me. Yeah. What gave it so much public attention? I think, I think number one was Queens. Mm-hmm. Queens, New York historically from the '80s and the '70s, they've always arrested groups of people.
Even before the tactical narcotics team, which is TNT, came about during the war on drugs and the crack era. Mm. Even prior to that, um, Queens, when they would arrest people, it would always be what we call crews. Mm. Or groups of people that they felt ran some kind of drug enterprise. Yeah. So Queens in particular, every borough has a certain culture.
Sure. Certain ambiance about it, and Queens had that- It was all, that, that, that they were known for having crews. Yeah. You know, the, uh, police department and would probably say they were gangs, drug gangs. Yeah. But we knew them as like drug crews, right? So you would have guys from 150th Street, guys from 40 Projects that ran drug enterprises.
So that climate in Queens was, was very common for them to say, "Well, we're gonna arrest everybody and figure it out from there." Um, and then you gotta remember, you know, prosecutors are incentivized for convictions, not for doing their job, but for convictions. Sure. They- 'Cause their job includes much more than getting someone convicted.
Yeah. I mean, it's, it's them winning, right? It's them winning. Shows that the, that the arm of the, the, uh, the law is stronger than whatever they're opposing. Absolutely. Absolutely. So they lock a bunch of guys up. Prosecutors got it out for you. Prosecutors got it out. Um, I didn't learn- What, what- ... until 20 years later that- Yeah
that my prosecutor was crooked, and he winded up going to prison. John Scopa, former Queens prosecutor John Scopa. But see, you don't know all this. Yeah. And it's so much of a dark cloud over you at that time when you're dealing with a homicide. You're going to court every month. Um, you're not seeing a judge.
I'm literally in the bullpens smoking a pack and a half of cigarettes every- Every two to three weeks. Yeah. I, I mean, like there's so much that I wanna dive into this story about because it's like your mindset, right? And that's what's great about having a movie, right? Is you get to see what that would feel like in that environment.
So, you know, you get locked up. You've been locked up before. Mm-hmm. But this time it's for something really serious. It's for something serious. What's going through your head, you know, and how you're processing this? So take us through, like from day of lockup, w- and w- the l- days leading up to you get convicted.
From the day of lockup, from the day of the crime, I initially thought, oh, it'll just be, you know, lay up in jail, then they'll find out the truth and I'll be let go That was my initial, I remember it like it's yesterday. I remember that clearly. Oh, I'll be, you know, I'll be out shortly. Um, they locked up another guy, Clarence Smith, who wasn't nowhere near the crime scene as well.
So in my mind I says, "Well, we'll both be out because the guy that had the shootout is gonna let them know he didn't have anything to do with that." So the guy who actually shot him, did he ever end up doing time or no? He's been in for 33 years now. He's been in for 33 years now, and unfortunately, um, he's been charged with another homicide in prison.
In prison. And, um, was given another additional 12 years. Were you friends with this guy? So he turned 33... Yes. So he turned 33 years into, um, 45 years. Oh. Uh, and- 45 minutes sounds like it sucks ... yeah, and to be quite honest with you, during the shooting, it's not even clear, it's not even 100% clear if he's the one that did it.
'Cause multiple people shot. Because multiple people were shooting. Yeah. And people were shooting, people drew their guns on him and were shooting at him first, right? Why did they- And so that, they robbed him a week earlier. Sure. But why was it like, I mean, you hear about shootings all the time. Mm-hmm. And you hear about like, you know, what, no matter what side of the, the fence you're on, you hear about like, oh, this person didn't get enough time.
This person got too much time. Like, why this case? Why did so many people get such a- I think the time that it happened, I think the media, like the media frenzy, I think that played a role in it. Um- At the time, you had Vernon C. Mason, Al Sharpton, who, you know, they became involved at one point. Yeah. And I think all of that kind of exacerbated, right?
The attention. The attention- Yeah ... on a level that everyone was like, "Well, we gotta prosecute these guys." Very similar to what happened four years earlier in 1989 with the Central Park Five case. Mm-hmm. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was- Was huge ... yeah, a media frenzy. Yeah. People wanna get involved, and prosecutors feel like they can advance their career, which they can- Sure
advance their careers through prosecuting this particular type of case. Yeah. Um- Well, I think it- And again, it's, it's really, really, you know, you initially say, "I'm gonna be home shortly," but it, that turned into, uh, a 29-year nightmare, literally. Ugh. You know? So you get locked up. You're sitting in this cell.
You and this other guy are like, "Yeah, we're gonna get out. We didn't do anything." When did it start to go south? I think it started to go south for, uh, uh, me after about two years, and it was no release. Two years? After two years on Rikers Island, and I don't know if you know the process on Rikers Island. I mean, l- I read that story, or I watched that documentary on Netflix about the kid who gets lost in the system and ends up dying on Rikers Island.
Kalief Browder? Oh, dude. He actually came home and killed, and took his own life. Took his own life, yeah. Um, yeah, but that like- To me when watching that, I'm like, his soul died in that jail because he couldn't proce- Like, the fact that he got lost in the system for something he never did, and then got into the fight.
Mm. That whole fucking story is so wild. Unbelievable. Like, every- And keep in mind, that was for a backpack. Yeah. Yeah. That was literally for a backpack. Such bullshit. But oftentimes, um, and I thank God for strength and for strong, if you don't have that mental fortitude, right? Yeah. Um, you can come out and never be the same.
I agree. Because, you know, prison is a very volatile and a very hostile environment, and Kalief Browder is just, to be quite honest with you, that wasn't even a fraction of what Rikers Island is. That's just, that's really s- mi- that's minuscule in comparison to what happens every single day on Rikers Island.
Y- was that the first time you were in Rikers Island? No, that was the first time I ever stood in Rikers Island for a long time. Yeah. You arrested, you go through the process, and you come out in a week or two. This time I was on Rikers Island for almost three years. Yeah. Like, I've... The closest I've been, and the closest I ever wanna fucking get to Rikers Island is flying over it when you're, like, leaving LaGuardia and shit.
Yes. So you're looking down at this place and you're like, "What the fuck is that like, driving up to that place?" Because I don't care where you live in the country, maybe even the world, you hear Rikers Island and you're like, "That's a bad fucking place." Yeah. It's the biggest penal colo- colony- Yeah
probably in the country. You're talking about over 20,000 people when I was there- Yeah ... on Rikers Island. And it's on toxic land. Yeah. So I remember being in a building we call C95, and the floor is so hot you can't even walk on it. So you have to literally flood your cell with water so that you can get up and walk on the floor.
Right? Because it's so, it's so hot. The land is toxic. No one, no human being should be on Rikers Island. Mm. Like, fool If you asked me 20 years ago what an entrepreneur was, I couldn't tell you. I didn't even know what the word meant. But I found myself building a business over the past 15 years of my life, and as a entrepreneur, I was always looking to be coached in business, right?
I sell personal training and group fitness, and I wanna help people build their bodies. And as somebody who never really had any business experience prior to me building my business, I wanted to join a group or a class of people that were much more educated than I was, who've been through it, who had the experience, who could help me build my business.
And that's what I found in the s- Founders' Club. I've been in the club now for about six months, and I've seen nothing but value. Every dollar that I've spent, I would double that, hands down, because I've found a network of people and a group of people that I normally wouldn't have access to or ever get to meet.
I think they've done an incredible job of curating the people who are there. Everyone I've worked with has been either willing to help or has helped me with my business, and I wanna be able to do the same for them. So it's a great network of people. I'm super excited to be a part of it. And if you guys are thinking about it, hands down, it's 1,500 people strong in North America, and only growing.
So best decision I've made in 2026. Stop. And they've tried to close it down a couple times, right? And I'm hoping that Mandami, um, reaches to the point where it does get closed down. Yeah. When I was there, it was over 20,000. Now there's under 7,000 people on Rikers Island. Really? And- So where are they putting it?
I mean ... They're supposed to be building borough-based jails. Okay. Um, which would be better in terms of the facility, but if you don't address the culture, the culture follows. They have that saying, culture eats strategy for breakfast, right? Mm-hmm. So you have to have a strategy in dismantling, disrupting the culture of Rikers Island.
Mm. Um, which is, you know, it's a, it's a level of hopelessness. That's a, that's a big ship to turn around. It's a huge- Yeah ... ship to turn around. They just closed one building last week. Okay. Um, and the gentleman that's the commissioner now is formerly incarcerated, the first time in history. A guy that I know named Stanley Richards- Mm-hmm
who used to work at Fortune Society. He's the commissioner of New York City Correction now. So I, I had met Eric Adams a couple times before he became mayor, while he was mayor, after he was mayor, and I really had hope for him to be the guy because I'm like, "Here's a guy, here's a New Yorker," right? Black dude who's been through.
And he's also- He walked in the streets. He's seen- Yeah ... he's seen the shit I really thought he was like, "You know what? This is my city, I'm gonna turn this around." I kind of feel like he got lost in the fucking party scene a little too much. He was having too good of a time with it. Um, but for somebody who's seen this- Mm-hmm
you, you understand how it works, right? People come in, they're like, you know, you see a lot of transplants come to New York and be like, "Oh, I know how to work." But until you live here, until you understand all the- Mm-hmm ... mechanisms that make this city go, it doesn't make sense. There is so much politics, and whether people wanna admit it or not, businesses run like gangs, right?
Uh, politics run like gangs. You're friends with who you're friends with. People are on the outside. It's all a political game. And it's funny you say that, because we always talk about inside the group of guys that I was with, of Voices From Within and other guys that we created a group called Civic Duty Initiative, we always talk about transferable skills.
How do we take what it means to be entrenched in- Yeah ... a gang, and take those skills into bus- corporate America- Yeah, yeah ... and developing a business, right? You s- that's why you see so many guys, like 50 Cent and Jay-Z and stuff. Mm-hmm. They're like, they got street mentality. That, that's- Yeah, exactly ... that is a skill that they learned the hard way- Mm-hmm
and moved it over to where- Absolutely ... it actually matters. Yeah, like you don't take shit from people. And not, not just that, but also the resilience that comes with it. Yes, 100%. Yeah. Um, I can't tell you how many guys I know that were innocent on Rikers and would say, "I'm just gonna plead guilty to get off of Rikers," because it's that bad here.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? It's that bad here. And I think in terms of Eric Adams and his mayor, and him being the mayor of New York City, I equate that to me going from upstate Clinton, Dannemora, and coming down closer to New York and going to s- a prison called Sullivan, and then going to Sing Sing.
Everybody wants to go to Sing Sing, which is a maximum security prison. It's the closest one to New York City. Where is that? Upstate? It's by Ossining, which is Westchester County. Okay. About a hour drive, hour and 20 minutes. And why does everybody wanna go there? Everybody- That looks like me wants to go to Sing Sing because that's the only prison that has a lot of predominantly Black men and women working there.
Okay. When you go up to Dannemora, Clinton, um, you got 6'7", 6'5" white guy, real redneck, never been around Black people in his life. Yeah. And they tell you that. "The only time I met a Black guy was working here." No shit. Right? Um, they're from Dannemora, um- That's like some old school white trash, like- And they-
trailer park ... they despise anybody, not just Black, but from the city. Yeah, yeah. Um, don't be a white guy that's in a gang. I remember, I remember them really giving some white guys that were Bloods, giving them hell in Clinton. No shit. Yeah, like, you know, just giving... I'm talking about brutalizing them, you know, because they're in a gang and they feel like you shouldn't be with those Black guys.
But when you go from that place to Sing Sing, it's, "I wanna go here where some Black officers are." Mm-hmm. And when you get there, you learn, you quickly learn that you have to, uh, suspend expectations because oftentimes the conditions are no different. The officers are just as brutal. No shit. Right? So you're like, "They, well, they're kicking ass down here, too."
Yeah. Right? I expected that from the racist ones that were, like, in Clinton and Great Meadows. Sure. I didn't expect that down here. Yeah. But you, you learn quickly. And I think that's the same case with Mayor Adams. Yeah. You expect certain things. Everybody thought Rikers would be closed, or situations would be de- better in the city when Adams was in office.
Sure. Um, but I think you learned about a year or two that, uh, you need to suspend those expectations, too. Yeah. Well, you know what? I think, and I'm probably gonna get fucking shit for saying this, but how much of you, how much of you do you feel it's actual racism, or it's this expectation for somebody to be in that environment, right?
Growing up Italian in Newark, New Jersey, we were the only Italian family on the block. I think it's, I, I guess it's a form of racism, but it's like, you're not like us, so you're different. But when I played baseball, my baseball team was Black, Hispanic. We're... You're a part, it doesn't matter. Exactly. It's almost like it, color, race, doesn't matter.
And it's like, you know, I have friends and family who have been in the military. It's like they have brothers, people you get super tight with, people I work with, right? It, it, it doesn't even matter. It's only when it's like this volatile environment that's like, you're on this side, you're on this side, and then you become something that I'm not, so that's why I have to kind of point that out.
Do I believe racism exi- of course, but I think we've all come so far- Mm-hmm ... that it's mind-boggling to me that it's, like, still a thing. So when you're saying, like, I'm at Sing Sing and there's other Black guys who hate me, it's like, well, they're not racist, they just hate who you are. And it's just the culture of corrections- Yeah
for the most part. Yeah. Right? Like, they're, they're cops. Mm-hmm. You're this piece of shit. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, and that's the way they look at you. Yeah. Right? So, like, how much of it is that? How much of it is, like, the cultural experience of, like, well, you're in there for a reason, I need to treat you like shit.
And I think that when you talk about officers in, like, a Sing Sing or Rikers Island, that, you know, oftentimes they get very, they could be very abusive as well. Yeah. I think it's more of the culture of what it means to be a cop, right? This idea that you have to live and function a s- a, a correction officer lives and functions a certain way.
Mm-hmm. Um, it's all a social construct, racism in and of itself, right? Yeah, yeah. Um, we're conditioned to believe that we're different when the reality is when you get into a sports game or you get into or- Yeah ... let's, let's win. Yeah. Yeah. You know? Well, I look at- I swear. I look at at how I think one of the best things to happen to New York since I've lived here- Mm-hmm
is the Knicks winning the, the finals. Big deal. Right? And the, just, people are like, "Are you a Knicks fan?" I go, "I'm, I'm not a sports guy." I like UFC and I like shit like that, but I've never been, like, a big NFL guy. I've never- Mm-hmm. If the Yankees or Mets or any New York team wins, I'm happy 'cause I'm a New York guy.
Yeah. I want New York to win. Yes. And with the, uh, World Cup, I, people are, "You watching the game?" I'm like, "No, I just want the US to win because I'm a US guy." Yes. I want my people to win because it makes everybody around me feel good. I don't think anybody's like, "Oh, he's, he's a Black player or a white player."
It's like, who gives a fuck? No, the en- the, the energy in New York is different with the Knicks. It's diff- yeah. It's completely different. But I think the beauty, what I love so much about New York is that it is a melting pot. Mm-hmm. If you're Muslim, if you're Jewish, if you're Black. Today's episode is brought to you by Marek Health.
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If you're serious about feeling better and performing at your best, then go check out Marek Health. Use the code Kenny for 10% off. Like, it doesn't matter. It's like you could come here and thrive. That's a fact. Right? And to me, it's like we get so wrapped up, like when I see people yelling at cops, and most of the time when people are like...
We got broken into one time here, and she hit me up. She's like, "There's somebody in the gym." So I ran out of-- I was at jujitsu. I'm running out. I'm like, "Fuck, what am I getting into? Am I gonna have to fucking wrestle somebody into the gym?" Yeah. She had called the police. Five cops showed up, Black, Hispanic.
Mm. They couldn't have been more cordial and nice and great, and, like, they were so... And I go, "I feel bad for you guys." Where I'm sitting here bullshitting with them. I was like, "I feel bad for you." And they were like, "Why you say that?" I was like, "'Cause you guys take so much shit." Mm-hmm. And there's so many people who are like, "Oh, oh, cops are racist."
I'm like, "What are you talking about?" Mm-hmm. None of, there was, nobody White showed up. It wasn't like this was this, like-- Mm. But I think the, it's embedded in their heads that people hate them when they show up, and then they have to now be aggressive towards people, right? Who, it doesn't matter who it is.
Mm. I think there's-- Because I've had fam-- My uncle was a cop. My dad was a cop. My brother was a cop. So it's like you, you're in this environment where it's like it's always this negative, tense situation. I think that plays a role. I think you also have that group that has been obsessed with power. Yeah, yeah.
And some people, you know, the guy that's been bullied his whole life and says, "Well, I wanna be a cop." Yeah. And now he has the advantage, right? That's, right. So I think you have a element of that as well. 1,000%. Um- There's, by no means am I justifying, but, like- Yeah ... there are shit cops. I've met shit doctors.
I've met- Absolutely ... and- And then you put them in the wrong place. Yeah, yeah. Like, so you'll take, um, the city with it- You can't have a guy like that who's a fucking, been a whole loser his whole life, and then give him a g- a gun and a badge. Now- No ... he's gonna be a jerk off. No. And nor should you take, um, a group of guys from way out in Long Island and put them in the housing projects in the Bronx- Yeah
to police that area. Yeah. Right? Because there's, the media plays a role in creating this stereotypical profile of what, um, a person who is engaged in criminality looks like. Yeah. So many of them probably only seen a guy with braids and a durag on the news, and so you begin to associate criminality with someone that looks like that.
Mm-hmm. Especially if you're far removed from- Removed from them ... that community. Yeah. So my point is community polic- policing, right? People who know the community, who are respected in the community, those should be the people that, um, that police those particular communities. I- You shouldn't have a Peter Liang, right?
And sorry to use this as an example, an Asian guy h- uh, uh, being a police officer in the pink houses in Brooklyn. Sure. So the first guy he sees, he shoots and kills in the staircase, right? Um- It's, it's, it's all a lot of social conditioning, you know, just like racism, the social construct. Like, do you think- Mm
people think that we're so different when we're so much alike? I know. And you know what? The whole message with my brand is, like, we need to get more winners. Nobody wants losers around them, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Since you've come out, you wanna be around people who are trying to win, who are trying to get better.
Absolutely. I wanna be able to fucking help more people win, 'cause that makes my city better. Like, if my- if the coffee shop across the street does well, I don't care who the fuck owns it. If it does well, it's gonna draw more people to this area, so my gym's gonna do better. And if the restaurant down the block goes out of business, that means people are gonna be like, "Oh, this area's not good," d- because the, it's, it's boarded up.
There's nobody there. So I need to help more people win. I wish we had 100,000 more- I know ... people that think like you and live like you. And I, I, I truly believe that. And I, but I, the one thing that scares me is that when you give too much, then people don't feel like they have a purpose. Mm-hmm. And you have to help people find their purpose to wanna contribute to society.
And I like what you're saying about having people in that area police it. The one thing that my mind jumped to was like, you know, back in the day, like a whole mafioso fucking- Mm-hmm ... situation. Yeah. Italian, right? So now you got these guys who are fucking putting the squeeze on everybody. Mm-hmm. So it's like, how do you now police that?
Because that's what the mob did really, I- really good for them, but really bad for everybody else. Everybody else. It's like you watch Goodfellas and you're like, "All right, fuck you. Pay me." And now they burn the guy's place down. So you got people of your own kind treating you like- Yeah ... shit. So it's like, I think human nature.
Mm-hmm. The way we structure schools. Like, you go to school and you sit there and you learn about how do we teach people how to have a purpose and a reason and teach them real life skills and not so much bullshit. Like, I don't think, I mean- I think- ... we got two 40-year-old guys here, 50-year-old guys here. When the fuck is the last time you used geometry?
Yeah. And I sp- I, I taken three years of fucking geometry. Yeah. You learn, you, you, you never use geometry. But something you said earlier, you talked about neuroplasticity. Yeah. We use that every day. Yeah. How do we rewire the brain? How do we- Sure ... train people to think differently and to see their life differently- Yeah
so that they can change their experience, right? Mm-hmm. Um, and that's really what it's about. It's getting into the mindset of the average person. As you said, the city completely shifted this, during the championship. Yeah. You know, it was a city of winners finally after 53 years. Mm-hmm. The Knicks, uh, getting the championship.
And how many people you know, th- like myself, aren't really fans of any sport, but they felt like they were a part of it? Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. My- So how do we create more of that? My mother's in her 80s and she, she went to a basketball game Recently to watch the New York Liberty- Okay ... over at the Brooklyn Nets for the first time in her life.
Oh, shit. Because the Knicks got her feeling good, 'cause she watched the championship. Yeah. So now she wanted to go to a game. That's awesome. 84. Yeah, yeah. So that's, you know, that's the feeling. So when we have the feeling that we can all win and we can all pull each other up, this is not about a handout.
Yeah. It's about helping you understand that you can have a different vision for your life. Yeah. That you can see the world that you live in differently, right? And that you can tap within to find the, the wherewithal to pursue your dreams, to pursue your vision. Mm-hmm. But you gotta change the way you think.
I tell guys in prison all the time, "If you keep reading bullshit, then bullshit's gonna come out." It's the same concept with food, when you talk about being strong. If you work out all day and you eat bullshit, bullshit's gonna come out. The results that you want in the gym are not gonna be the same if you work out all day, but you think that you can just consume a bunch of sugar and a bunch of bullshit.
You're gonna walk outta here looking the same. Yeah. And it's the same thing with men and women that are incarcerated, um, that are trying to create better lives for themselves. Men and women in the street that are people that are free, that are trying to create better lives for themselves. Is you be- if you begin to shift that mindset and understand that what you consume can really change the way your brain is wired.
Yeah. No, I, I, I truly believe that. When you eat a shitty meal and you feel lethargic and slow and shitty afterwards- That has an effect on your brain. Now multiply that 10,000 times- Mm-hmm ... over the course of your life. By the time you hit 50 or 60, you're gonna feel like shit. That's a fact. And when you eat good and you clean, you know, it doesn't disrupt your brain functionality, it doesn't disrupt your gut.
Your gut is your second brain. When you feel good, you're gonna operate differently. When I'm in a mood and I feel like, you know, something hurts or something's bothering me, that affects the way I operate throughout the day, my engagement with other people. Like, if I'm in pain, it's almost innate in us to project that pain- Mm-hmm
onto somebody else. Mm-hmm. Quick attitude with them. You don't feel as good about it. When you feel good, you want other people to feel good. That's right. It's, so, I mean, stop consuming bullshit- Yeah ... on every level. So if you, if you're watching a podcast about bullshit as opposed to watching Strong as Fuck- Yeah
right, and getting some real gems and some jewels to create a better life for yourself- Yeah ... um, what you consume on every... If you're watching social media and you're watching a bunch of bullshit, you're strolling through a bunch of nonsense. Yeah. Nonsense in is nonsense out. Yeah. But there is some empowering stuff on social media, right?
You can use it for a source of entertainment, or you can use it as a source of empowerment. Mm-hmm. The decision is yours and what you wanna consume. 'Cause what you put in is what you gonna get out. Yeah. That's in every area of life. I heard ... I forget where I heard it, but I think I was listening to a podcast or something, but they were talking about country music.
And everybody's like, "Oh, well, country music." But a lot of country music is, like, this broken heart bullshit. Mm-hmm. So it's like, even, like, Taylor Swift music, it's always like, "Poor me. The boy broke up with me." Mm. And it's like, it almost puts people into this mentality of like, "Oh, hey, this is what my whole life is gonna be, and I...
There's nothing good to look forward to." And it almost puts you down this, like, negative outlook. And, and the record sales go through the roof- Yeah ... because so many people- Experience it ... feel like that's their story. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? Yeah. Meanwhile, you may have some empowering music that doesn't do as well.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Even when you look at hip hop artists, the one who bring conscious music to you, those who rap about consciousness, like Common- Yeah ... for instance, right? Or Talib Kweli. When you look at these guys that are talking about something positive- Positive, yeah ... they don't sell as much as a guy that's talking some bullshit.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because people are in that mindset and in that mode, and they can relate and identify that. And the reality is Doing, doing what's easy, right, is what people gravitate to. So true. Right? Being strong as fuck doesn't come easy, right? Mm-hmm. So when you get into this gym and you gotta work, you don't c- we, we ain't come here to have a conversation.
Yeah. You're gonna get down, you're gonna put that chain on, you're gonna do them pushups, right? Mm-hmm. You're gonna do those pull-ups. Then we gonna do these sprints. But it's so simple for people like us, right? Like, every day, you probably never miss a workout. For somebody like myself, I, I gotta get this surgery on Monday, and it's driving me nuts that, not even the surgery, just the, because I'm not gonna be able to work out.
Work out. But we understand that, like, you have to go through some level of struggle- Mm-hmm ... pain, and discomfort to be comfortable on the other side. Absolutely. Absolutely. Why do you think, for somebody who studied it, right, you had plenty of fucking time to dive into this and the, the philosophy and understanding of it, why do you think so many people avoid going through the hardship?
Because every- there's not a doctor on the planet or anybody worth their own salt who's not like, "Oh, exercise is a great way to live a better life. Well, eating right is a great way to live a better life." Yet so many people avoid it. So many people would rather take the easy road. Why is that? I think a lot of people are motivated, but they're not disciplined, right?
So motivation- Sure, sure ... will get you started- Yeah ... but discipline will carry you through to the end. Mm-hmm. So discipline is so much more important to have, because it prepares you for the long haul. Mm-hmm. So if you consistently fight for your freedom as I did for 29 years, um, I was sentenced to 37 and a half to life.
It took 29 for Governor Kathy Hochul to be able to see who I was and say, "Open up the door for him," right? Right. It took 29 years of consistently doing the right thing. Yeah. But oftentimes what I've found is this: when people, this is for health and wellness, this is just in life in general. In school, when a person is at that point where they're like, "I'm sick and tired of it.
I'm about to let go. I'm about to give up." Those people that are ju- that are able to push just past that are the ones who become successful. Mm. Because when you're extremely exhausted and tired and ready to give up, that means you're at the threshold of success. You know, every time I hear that I always think of that little cartoon of the guy who's in the hole.
Mm-hmm. And he's, you know, digging through the hole, and the hole is only about this much thinner. Mm-hmm. And he's dug this whole tunnel, and the gold is on the other side of this thin piece, and he's about to, like, give up. And it says, like, "Don't give up now because you're so close." And so many people, it's like you give up when you're, like, right there.
We were talking before, I wanna get back to that. Like, you said about two years in you started to lose hope on getting out. You start to get tired and you realize that the one thing- Were you, did trial happen yet or anything? N- no. Yeah. Trial was about to happen, but you's looking at how the cards playing, you're like, "This is not going well at this point."
I think right after trial and you're convicted, you realize, a light bulb goes off and you say to yourself, "Well, I'ma keep trying to change my condition, but in the meantime if I can't change my condition, the one thing I can change is myself. I can change my mindset. I can change how I view my situation."
Right? So I can start looking at this cell that I, that I'm in as a office. I can start looking at that yard as a workout station. I can look at the school building as a study hall, and I can begin to shift the way I see this entire environment. And you know the guys around you, you can say, "Well, this ain't just a bunch of prisoners.
I'ma build a small community of like-minded men- that want more, right? Because if you want more, you gotta be more. And under any circumstances that you find yourself under, you can decide to be more, right? And one of the books that helped me with that I always talk about is Viktor Frankl, Man's Search for Meaning.
If you can find your why, you can certainly figure out how. Mm. Right? You know why it is that you do strong. You said something that was profound earlier: I want other people to win, 'cause if they win, I win. The c- the, the, the, the entire community around me, right, it begins to win. So why would I not want you to win?
All right? Mm-hmm. When we stop, um, having the mindset of crabs in the barrel, or I wanna do better than him, or we start competing with each other, what are we competing for? Yeah. Right? When we should be picking each other up. And I think that shifted early on in my incarceration. It's why I was able to, um, not serve time and have time serve me, because I made a decision to change the way I look at things, to change my mindset, right?
Mindset is everything. I mean, I used to rid hood- read what they call hood novels. After you read one, then you read another one, it's the same thing, man. How much of this shit am I gonna consume? I say, I, I read two or th- I, I don't need to read those no more. Mm. Right? I don't need to read them, because it's the same story over and over again.
I wanna read something different. I wanna read Steve Covey, The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, right? Great book. Yeah. And I wanna read it more than once, because every time I read it, I wanna get something out of it. Mm-hmm. Right? I wanna read The Four Agreements, right? Or, um, are my words impeccable?
Right? Um, I wanna read Left to Tell, Immaculee Ilibagiza. How could this woman, whose entire family was wiped out during the, uh, Rwanda genocide, still find the wherewithal to pray and to say, "I believe in God. I'm trusting in God, and I wanna live my life a certain way"? How does a, a little girl, nine, 10 years old, who experiences that- Mm-hmm
how is she able to continue to thrive, right? Because she had a mindset shift. She decided that I can't change where I'm at right now, but I can change how I respond to it. I can change my mind. Mm-hmm. And then you'd be surprised that once you start changing your mind, the people around you, the world around you, everything begins to change and look different Question that gets asked sometimes when religion gets brought up is, are you a God-fearing man?
And I never understood why people say you have to fear God. It's more of a belief in any God. Mm-hmm. Would you say you're a believer in God? There's no doubt about it, I'm a believer in God, beyond a shadow of a doubt. Mm. Um, but I'm also a believer in myself, and that God gives us the power to be, to be created in His image and likeness means that we are co-creators with God.
Mm-hmm. Right? Gave, God gave you the knowledge, the wisdom, and the understanding to create Strong- Yeah ... to create something great that is changing lives. So you're a co-creator with God. Mm-hmm. Right? The, the scary part is, you know, I went to Catholic school my whole life, all through high school, and it was my junior year, sophomore year, took a course on questioning your faith.
Mm-hmm. And do you believe in... It was the first time I'd been introduced to something that opposed Catholicism. Mm-hmm. And I said, "Fuck, maybe there is some other shit." And then I got to travel in my 20s when I was on TV and stuff, and I got to go to Thailand, and I experienced Buddhism, and, you know, when I was in the South, I experienced baptism, uh, you know, uh, Baptist Church, and, uh, obviously living here in New York, I understand, you know, Islam and Judaism, and you start to experience other religions.
And I see this parallel with all of them. Mm-hmm. It's always this, like, understanding that there is this higher power, that there needs to be some level of hope, because hope helps us all become better people. Absolutely. I think most of us need this, like, knowing that the wind is blowing behind us if we just keep our feet in motion, right?
And that wind is whatever God you want it to be or whatever belief system. And I think there's so many people who just don't have some level, call it spirituality or fear of God or whatever it may be. Like, I think most people need that. I think that's that purpose. Absolutely. Did, were you always that guy, or did you start to experience that a couple years in?
I think as a kid, you don't really understand when your parents bring you to church, what church really means. Mm-hmm. Um, and what having a relationship with, with a, a higher power really means. And I think that there is this, um, this line between religion and spirituality. I think religion has been used to divide us for- 100%
for hundreds of years. Yeah. But I think spirituality is just having a relationship with that- What you consider to be your God. That one thing that you know and understand is greater than yourself. Um, and I think that when you start seeing yourself having these huge challenges in life and then you break through them, you realize that I wasn't alone through this.
It's almost like you can f- you can feel the wind. Maybe you can't see it and grab it and possess the wind. Um, you- maybe you can't feel God and grab it and possess Him, right? But you can f- there's something internal- Mm-hmm ... that lets you know that I wasn't by myself walking. Like the footprints, the story of, uh, the, the poem- Yeah
about the footprints. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? Um, where God carried the guy, but the guy said he only saw one set of footprints in the sand bec- and God said, "Because that's when I carried you." You understand that there was something greater carrying you through. And for me, having my father tell me that You know, your mother cries for you every night, and she's praying for you.
Um, it made me understand that my mother's prayers, um, and my father's prayers are what carried me through. Yeah. So that two-year period when you're sitting there, what are they telling you? Like, that's two years of your life. I, for 13 months I'm going to court unknowingly with a public defender that has been slashed, similar scar on his face like mine, by his previous defendant who couldn't get rid of him.
His name is Reginald Towle. These are all facts, all on the record. My lawyer was seeing a psychiatrist, and he literally told the psychiatrist, Dr. Henry McCurtis, that, "I cannot adequately represent clients," because of what they know as, uh, PTSD, right? He had been slashed by his previous client that was trying to get rid of him.
I had a internal feeling that there was... This guy wasn't for me. I tried to get rid of him three occasions. The judge said, "Do you want him to come to Rikers Island and, and hold your hand? I'm not... He's not coming off your case." I, I took me 20-something years and a private investigator by the name of Ed Webster, who has since passed away, to find out that at a lawsuit that my lawyer had a civil suit against New York City because he was slashed in the court pens in Queens by his client that he was representing.
And he was seeing a psychiatrist, and they have what you call a 50-H C hearing during the civil proceeding, where he won 75,000. And at that proceeding they asked him, "Well, what damages? How has you being attacked and slashed by Hector Ruben, your previous client, how has it impacted your, uh, practice?" And then it was on the record that he said, "I can't defend clients.
I can't create a adequate defense." His next client was Bruce Bryant for a ho- for a high-profile murder case, who trie- I didn't know any of this until 20-something years later. Jesus Christ So now you're in and out of the court So he would come to, he, he would come to the court pens, never come to Rikers to visit me, and I would say to him, "Listen, I need you to do this, I need you to do that."
He would say, "Oh, I, I see you." But he would never come within arm's distance of me, because he was dealing with that. He was dealing with... No one in the courts ever told us this. The judge never revealed this. The courts, the, the district attorney, no one revealed this, and they knew Reginald Towle, T-O-W-L-E, and you can look him up, they knew he was my attorney, right?
For almost three years, and then went to trial with this guy, and then didn't find out until maybe 2013 that this guy was literally suffering from PTSD and had a psychiatrist by the name of Henry McCurtis that he was seeing regularly because of what he was going through Dude, that's fucking crazy. So you- Not to mention you have a DA that's a rogue DA- Yeah, yeah, yeah
that's engaging in misconduct as well. You have the perfect storm of bullshit against you. The perfect recipe for a wrongful conviction. Yeah. So then as you're sitting there two years in, this starts to look bad
How alone did you feel? You feel very much alone. No matter how much family support, no matter how many loved ones you have. Yeah. You f- when you lock in that cell at night, at night, it's you and that mirror, um, that you have. Mm-hmm. And it's during those moments that I learned the importance of having a conversation with myself.
Mm-hmm. One of the things I told somebody today, they were asking me about dating shit and stuff, and they were like, "But do you wanna be alone forever?" I go, "The best thing that everybody could do for themselves is get very comfortable being alone." Absolutely. My father died in 2019. My mother was with my father for 46 years.
All she knows is my father. I think one of the hardest things I've ever had to see her do is be alone for the last, like, seven years, eight years, and that adjustment in life. If you're... I, I'm not saying, telling people to be alone, but I think understanding that there will be so many moments in your life that you'll be alone, and you, if you get really good at handling yourself in those times, like, I can't fathom what that would feel like.
But there's a lot of times when I've been alone and I'm like, "No one can help me right now." Mm-hmm. This is something I have to deal with myself. And I think in those moments, I've gained strength that I never thought I would have, because you have to be like, you know what? You, you put yourself through hard shit.
I, there are people who do long races or workouts or, uh, go through grueling points in their lives where I think strength is all... Like, when you're about to break You either fucking figure it out or you don't That's right You know? And you- so now you get... Like, how long after that two-year period did you get convicted?
Like, what, what was that? Probably another year, almost another year. Maybe about another eight months I get convicted, uh, get sentenced to 37 and a half to life. Now you gotta, you gotta learn to appreciate what it means to be alone. And I think people, they associate loneliness with aloneness. Mm-hmm. And it's two different things.
Explain that. I think loneliness, you begin to convince yourself that you're alone in this world. Mm-hmm. And you need someone in order for you to live. I think aloneness, you appreciate your me time and know that there are certain things that you can only find within yourself that's gonna give you the wherewithal to carry on to the next day, right?
And in doing so, you're better to those around you. Mm-hmm. So you have to be alone in order to be able to, um, be at your best self and be able to pour into somebody else, right? It, uh, loneliness feels empty. Being alone, you're full. I like that. Right? Yeah. So- You know, fast-forward, you're in there, let's call it 10, 12 years in.
Yeah. And you're studying, and you're building yourself up, and you, you switched your mind over from that, you know, as cliche as it is, it's like the glass ain't half empty, it's half full. That's right. Now I have all this time to make myself a better man How many people in there do you think Understand that, right?
You're surrounded by all these guys who are hopeless. Very few. Very few. Very few. Because, um, when I used to tell guys that I have a mirror that I look at every morning and tell that person that I love them and that they're strong and that they're worthy and that they're gonna get through this, you gotta encourage yourself, right?
I remember reading in the Bible about King David, right, who went up at David and Goliath. There was a time when David had no one else but himself, so he had to encourage himself. And the Bible says it verbatim just like that. David encouraged himself. Sometimes Kenny ain't got nobody else to encourage him.
You ain't got the 50 guys in the gym to enc- you gotta encourage yourself. Mm-hmm. And I would encourage myself every single day because I knew that no one was gonna love me the way I love me. Mm-hmm. And I knew that I, I wanted to... I didn't wanna thri- survive anymore. I wanted to thrive, right? And I turned on that switch and said, "I'm gonna be a thriver and not just a survivor."
And it's common for you to walk the yard and guys say, "Man, I'm just surviving." That's every person in the penitentiary. So there's only a very few guys who have that vision board in that cell behind that locker of what they wanna do or the vision for their life. Even though you have life, you still have to have a vision for your life- Mm-hmm
despite where you are, right? Because where you are doesn't have to define who you are or what you can become. And once you internalize that, you leave, you live each day as if tomorrow you'll be free or as if the next hour you'll be home. And I started to live like that. And I g- it got to the point where guys would come by and say, "You talking to m- you talking to yourself?"
And I said, "Yeah. I, I'm pouring into myself." Because sometime you find yourself around a group of people that, you know, you don't wanna be the smartest one in the room everywhere. You wanna be- Yeah ... somewhere where someone can pour into you. Yeah. Right? And it becomes reciprocal, where we can begin to exchange ideas and thoughts and share our pains and our struggles.
What, and what life means to Kenny and what life means to Bruce, and how we can support each other and get through this. Yeah. You find your tribe. Well, you become that fucking catalyst that everybody needs. Yeah. You become that, like, kinda energy stick. You know, would you say that's nature or nurture? Do you think you got this m- you know, was this something you developed on your own or do you think it's the family that you had around you and that little glimpse of hope?
Hope is different things to different people. I told you about The Hope Podcast, and what hope means to me is hearing other people's experiences. So the older guys, when I would hear their experiences... You know, I was with guys from the Black Panther Party, guys that had been in prison since '79, '80, right?
Um, David Gilbert. I'm around these guys for years. These guys had already had 20 years in before I came to prison, and were sentenced to life, and some of them did 45, 48 years and finally made it out. The Herman Bells, the Jose Saldanas, all these guys I watched in prison every day thrive and do something.
And you have these conversations with them and you realize that for me, hope is not an abstract, it's very tangible. Mm-hmm. Because this guy's story is real. How Kenny went from w- where he was to where he is now with, with what it means to be strong- Mm-hmm ... that's not, you know, that's not abstract, that's real stuff- Mm-hmm
that you dig. And I can learn from that, right? And w- there's nothing wrong with following somebody that you think really has your best interest and that's pouring into you something meaningful. Mm-hmm. And when you learn that and you learn from other people and you say, "I can do that, man. I just gotta wake up every day with the right mindset."
You know, there's gonna be bad days, but who the fuck doesn't have a bad day? You know, one of the coolest things, uh, that I've started doing for myself was getting up earlier and going to do the things that people out there will probably say are cliche and don't work and all this stuff. But when you start to operate like a high performer, when you start to look yourself in the mirror and say, "I love you.
You're great. You're good." It sounds corny and stupid, or you get up and you go for a run or a walk, or you meditate- Mm-hmm ... or you cold plunge or whatever. I truly believe when you start to act and dress like the person you wanna be, you become that person. You attractive everything that you, that you emulate every day.
Yeah. You become that. Yeah. You become that. And historically, all the books that I've read, there's a system that high performers have, that all have, uh, have in common. Mm-hmm. There are certain things high performers have in common, like the getting up early and doing what needs to be done, like the vision board, right?
Like speaking to, to oneself and pouring into yourself, like surrounding yourself with people who know more than you do. Um, I recently became a patent owner and an inventor, so I'm tapping into guys that I know know a whole lot more than I do- Mm-hmm ... in the tech field, right? In order to build out the apparatus- Yeah
of what, what is called Judge Score. Um, took me over three years to get the patent, and if I tell you a story of how I met the guy- Just unbelievable. Somebody that I think at some point I wanna introduce you to. His name is Keegan. But it's just h- like, as you said, high performers do things differently.
They live differently. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. You know, you're out now, and I'm guessing that first day out was probably the fucking fella- Every day is similar to the first day. Yeah. For me, every day I'm ... I don't know what a bad day looks like. That's incredible. I don't know what a bad day looks like. Yeah. Because I'm free, and I understand the value of freedom.
Well, you went from, you're around murderers and drug dealers and the, the worst, what, what society would say is the worst- Mm-hmm ... person. But there's, it- The guys you see on the news every day were my next-door neighbors But you drew inspiration from the guys who are changing their mindset. Now- I drew inspiration from Son of Sam, who they called Son of Sam, David Berkowitz.
I was in prison with him. Oh, shit. In the law library with him four or five times a w- I worked in the law library- What was that fucking man like? ... in a prison called Sullivan. This guy came to the law library every day and got on the typewriter and began writing letters to people who, in the, in different churches, because he had his own ministry.
But he did it every day consistently, and he's still alive, and he's been in since '78, '77. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Holy shit. Right? I was obsessed with that story. He's been almost 50 years. Yeah. Right? And he consistently does what I'm telling you. He has a, a following, a church following, a group of people that he ministers to every day.
So he's found some sense of purpose- Yeah ... even in the midst of his circumstance. And some people say, "Well, he was the worst human being in the world." But if you see him now, you would think that this, you, he, he's, he's nowhere, he's not even remotely close to the same guy that he was 50 years ago. This guy is in, literally in the law library on a typewriter every day.
So for somebody who's done 30 years in there, you know, people used to say, like, jail or prison is supposed to be some form of rehabilitation If you had your way, how would you reconstruct the system so that it looked more like that, so that it is some sort of rehabilitation? I mean, you're s- you're saying there's very few guys who think the way you do or have found a purpose.
Mm-hmm. Had he have found a purpose earlier in life, maybe he wouldn't have done what he's done. Absolutely. For real? Absolutely. I think number one is understanding that these people have tremendous talent. These people we call criminals, these people we call convicted felons, um, those terms diminish their humanity.
These are human beings who are brilliant, who have talent. M- many of them may have committed some really bad acts. Mm-hmm. But how do we say, "Well, that bad act is not gonna change"? How do we help you become your best self? Mm-hmm. How do we provide adequate resources? Because everyone talks about, well, how do we make the public safe, right?
And what does public safety really, really look like? Mm-hmm. What does a safe prison really look like? What it looks like to me is not, not necessarily the absence of crime, but the presence of opportunity. So if we give them opportunity to become better, and they have diverse interests, so you have rehabilitation through the arts, which is a program that men are thriving in in prison.
You have higher education where guys are getting bachelor's degrees, associate's degrees, their master's degrees, and statistically it says the, the higher, uh, you- the further you are in your education, the less likely you are to commit crime again. 100%. So providing opportunities to incarcerated people so that they can find out, find what it is that their gifts are, because we all have them.
Mm-hmm. Um, find what their gifts are, and begin to nurture and cultivate what those gifts and those talents are. Because as we talked about earlier, they are transferable skills, right? Some of the... You just had a guy, um, in the Carolinas, the first person in the United States, his name is Currin, I believe, he bought a prison.
He bought the prison that he was in. This is unheard of, right? That's crazy. Yeah. But, but the, but it happens when sometimes people find their way, or someone took the time out to say, "Let me go in there and, and share a conversation with y'all." It would be amazing for you to walk into a prison like Sing Sing and say, "I wanna talk to you 20, 30 men in a room about what it means to be, be strong, and who I am, and where I come from."
You know? You, you'd probably be so blown away by some of the responses that you get. You know what I mean? Yeah. Or, or going into the women's prisons and talking to some of them. See, what happens is no one ever gets a- an invite and says, "Ken, I'm inviting you to prison with me next week." People don't get those invites.
No, no. Right? I don't know how many people would jump on the opportunity. I don't know how many people would jump on the opportunity, but if a person says, "I'm inviting you to go meet with a group of intelligent people, they just happen to be in prison." I think you fear what you don't know. I think people always look at so many things that just seem intimidating to them, whether it's anything from a workout, to a race, or to, um, you know, any type of hard obstacle in their lives, or to go into an area where they don't necessarily feel safe.
I think most people, if you look at it, when you're picking somewhere to live or where you wanna be, you want two things. Right? You wanna feel safe, and you want it to be clean. Mm-hmm. Right? Like, most people are like, walk into a hotel room, "I'm not gonna stay in the hotel room if it's dirty." You're gonna be like, "The fucking bed's not made.
What the hell am I paying for it?" You know? And when you walk down the street, you wanna just be like, "Oh, if my kids were running around here, I wouldn't worry about it." I think that's what most people want out of life. Do you think that we've become so obsessed with, like, material things, and that's why people start to commit some of the crimes they do?
They feel dis- disenchanted and not given what they think everyone has. Like, because there's a lot of people out there who think, like... And I think it, it is more so than ever before, because the younger generation's exposed to so much more than television, social media. Social media and shit. Like, we didn't...
We were saying, I, like, growing up, I didn't know anybody who lived really well, who had, like, boats and cars and shit. Absolutely. Now you see that shit all the time on Instagram. Yes. And I'm like, if I was a kid now, I'd be like, "Fuck, man. I gotta do something to make this money." Mm-hmm. Now as an older guy, I'm like, the idea of having a boat, I'm like, "Oh, my God, I'd have to clean the fucking thing and-" Yeah.
It's like- Yeah ... it almost becomes a job, and you're like, "Fuck that. I don't want it." But I think there's so many people who see things in life now where they're like, "I need to have that. I should have that. I deserve it." But I'm like, "Did you work for it? Do you, like, do you really want it? When you get it, would you still feel the same?"
You know? I think social media has opened up the windows for people to say and see and say the lives, see the lives of others, but also become more cognizant of what it is materialistically that they don't have. Because you don't, in order to understand poverty, you gotta be able to have something to compare it to.
Mm-hmm. Now you have something to compare it to, 'cause you see it all over social media. So if you didn't see it as a kid, right, which, you know, we didn't because we lived in isolated areas, maybe we saw the four corners of the particular ar- community we lived in, um, then you would have nothing to aspire to, right?
So that's the other part- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... to that. That's the- That's- ... flip side to that. I agree. What do we aspire to? So showing a person that and, you know, forcing it down their throat and s- basically saying, "You don't have what I have," is one thing. And showing them something and saying, "Well, you know, you can aspire to, um, to have this very same thing, if that's something you want."
There's a place for stuff- in this world, right? And because at, at the end of the day, it's really just stuff, and at some point you, I mean, you can accumulate but so much stuff. Mm-hmm. Um, it's the relationships in life that really matter. 100%. If we put that value on relationships, what type of relationship does Bruce and Ken have as opposed to what do Bruce and Ken have?
Mm-hmm. Right? You know what I mean ? Yeah, yeah. You know, they got Nikes and Dunhill sneakers, whatever it is, right? What do they ha- what do they have in terms of their relationship? And you begin to see the d- the value in that. I think we, we need to understand values, and society needs to put more, um, more emphasis on what values really are, right?
Mm-hmm. A- and it's something that I often ask people when I speak to young people in marginalized communities or in jails. I always talk to them about, write down three things that are the most valuable things to you, right? Because when you deal with a person's values, you're dealing with the very core of the person.
Mm-hmm. So do you value stuff? Most people don't put stuff as their first three things. Most people will put family, you know, uh, health, and wellness, right? Mm-hmm. So for me, I remember being inside and putting on my vision board faith, family, and freedom, right? That was, you know, whether you want it in that order or not, but it was those three things were on my board.
Mm-hmm. Faith, family, and freedom. And, you know, freedom was, like, number one, be honest with you. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. Fuck yeah. You know, because if I'm not good, then I can't make sure or be there for my family in the way that I want to. Yeah. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Um, and then, you know, and faith is right there along with it because you wanna believe that that greater source, that God, has you in mind, that He hasn't forgotten you.
You know what I mean? That you are b- you are remembered, that you come from something greater than yourself. Faith, family, and freedom, right? And freedom is, is, is priceless. Yeah. It's why I say I never seen a bad day. I think in all of us, we all wanna be part of something bigger than us that we truly feel.
But that's why we're, everyone wants family, or they wanna be a part of a company or a business or a movement or a brand that you feel a connection to that makes you feel like you're a part of something bigger. It's funny you say that because it's why I found... I heard a pastor one day, Reverend Dr.
Herbert Daughtry, and he said, "The happiest people in the world are those who have found something that is greater than themselves, a cause in particular, and have committed to it." And when you really think about that, people that commit themselves to something that's greater, like a cause or doing s- like wellness.
Mm-hmm. Like what it means to be strong, um- You're one of the happiest guys I know. I knew when I walked in that door and met you and left with Peter Hurley, I said, "I like that guy." You can ask him. I said, "I like that guy. He got good energy," right? The cause is health and wellness. It's greater than you. Yeah.
It's health and wellness, right? The community, the people. Everybody ... You know, when the tide w- uh, rises, everybody rises. Mm-hmm. Right? Yeah. Um- No, I agree. So you found a cause that's greater than yourself, and you've committed to it, right? Um, this is, this is important. This is a part of your livelihood. Not just what you gain to keep the, you know, the system going monetarily, but to see people's lives change.
To see a guy come in here 250 pounds and say, "I wanna ... You know, I wanna build some muscle." And you tell him, "Well, in order to, to, to ... Uh, you, "I wanna burn some fat." In order to burn some fat, you gotta build some muscle. Mm-hmm. The more muscle you got, the more fat you're gonna burn. Yeah. All right, so let's get your ass under this weight.
And you see him six months or eight months down the line, and he's feeling better, and he's looking good. That does something for you as well. Oh, fuck yeah. It's win-win. Yeah, yeah. This is win-win. Yeah. I, I, I can't explain that to more people the way I felt when I lost weight and I felt good. I'm like, "Okay, I'm here.
I've arrived. How the fuck do I get more people in this boat with me?" And that's why as I was ... As I hinted to you earlier about the invention, right? Which, uh, my patent was through a guy I met through a magazine in prison. No shit. I'm in the library one day. So I go to the library two, three times a week when I was in Sing Sing.
And I go visit. And I read everything. Old newspapers, magazines, different publications, you name it. But I would always read the Entrepreneur, Black Enterprise, and I would read the Inc. magazine. So I'm reading the Inc. magazine this one time And I come across a guy named Keegan Caldwell, and it says in there what impact did he wanna have with his firm that he started.
He started an IP firm, intellectual property firm. And he said, "Recidivism." Recidivism is the idea of a guy coming home from prison and coming back to prison. They say, you know, 60% of the people that come home, within the first three years, they're back in. Jesus. Right? Whether it's poverty, which is a crime-generative factor, or substance abuse, or, you know, a guy just being mentally ill and just c- committing the same act, you know, horrendous act over and over again.
But this guy, Keegan Caldwell, said he had six felony convictions. He was homeless, living in a shelter. He was a substance abuse user, and he realized, you know, he didn't go to prison. He was, you know, he was in... He's in Boston. He was fortunate enough to not go to prison for a long time, even though he had six felonies.
He was homeless. He started going to school, and he started pursuing intellectual property and what that would look like. So I'm reading this in the Ink magazine, and it says right now he's top 25 IP firms in the country- Oh, shoot ... and thriving. So I- Give you hope. I, I... Not only did it give me hope, it, it compelled me to reach out to him because there was something brewing inside of me for years that I wanted to create, that I thought would prevent other people from being wrongfully convicted.
Mm-hmm. I wa- I always would draw up and write about how do we prevent, 'cause it's one thing for a guy to do 29 years or twen- 20 years and you say, "Oh, he was wrongfully convicted." Can't get back those years. It's another thing to try to prevent it from happening. Mm-hmm. Looking at the system or creating something that can look at the system and have red flags for everything that we know and understand that can lead to a wrongful conviction, from misidentification, from prosecutory misconduct, from DNA evid- faulty DNA evidence, or from faulty science, which they have in shaken baby syndrome, they have in arson.
A lot of that stuff over the last 30, 40 years that, that where guys were getting convicted for was all junks. A lot of it was junk science- No shit ... that they used to give guys life sentences. How do we address that? So I wrote this guy, Keegan Caldwell. I had my family get his email address. Sent him an email.
Sent him an email, tell him I'm in here and I wanna get to know him, I wanna talk to him. I start sending him letters. He comes to visit me. No shit. Comes to visit me in Sing Sing We become friends and he says, "Tell me about your vision and what it is that you want to invent." Because the impact he wanted to have was recidivism, so what he did was guys in prison that had a good idea, he allowed them, he helped them get a free patent through his firm.
He did the whole process for them, which is like a pretty expensive process. Expensive. Yeah. And it's a pain in the ass too. It's a pain in the ass. Yeah. So before I walked out of prison, we started working on this patent A month ago, I became a patent holder, an inventor of Judge Score AI, which is designed to prevent, uh, wrongful convictions.
It's designed to, designed to look at the systems- Nice ... that are in place. So I literally just got that patented. Um, and I'm working with some guys out of MIT in creating the apparatus, the software to help it prevent others from being in this, you know, having the same experience that I had, right? So you, you know, when you talk about purpose, you're talking about having a vision for your life.
You wanna kinda like prevent people from going through the same painful shit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Right? I mean, that's, that's my fucking life. I... You know, people talk about prejudice and fucking hating people and all this shit. I go, "You know who's got it pretty bad? Fat people." You know, people look at fat people, out of shape people, and immediately your thought is, "All right, they're lazy, they don't do anything."
For, for somebody who struggle with it myself, you know, like I get so frustrated with people 'cause I wanna see people do well. Mm-hmm. I'm like, "Yo, if you just fucking listen to me, you will do so well." Yeah. Like, you just gotta fucking bite this apple and, you know, get involved in this shit. Um, so yeah, I, I get that.
I... And it's like now this is, this is your thing. Like, is this what you're doing now after...? Yeah. I, I... And not only that, I'm going to speak to people in prison. Yeah. Um- So you're actively- I volunteered twice. Like, I went to Rikers Island last week. Mm-hmm. Two weeks ago I went to Rikers Island, and three weeks ago I went inside the juvenile jail, Horizons.
Because I understand that people need to hear from people like me. Um, and I'm sure that they'll love to hear from guys like you too about what fitness can do to transform their lives despite them being in prison. Mm-hmm. Because guys in jail and prisons, they work out, you know, intensely. A lot of them have bad form.
A lot of them don't understand nutrition. Mm-hmm. Right? And there are things that you can buy from commissary and other places that are healthier than other things. So looking at a commissary and creating a better commissary buy, and teaching the person how to shop. If they, if, if, if they were to hear from you with some shit like that, that's life-changing.
Despite them being in prison, they can be healthier. Their mind... 'Cause, you know, health is really wealth. Your mind becomes clearer. It is. You know, you can do more, you feel better, you sleep better. You know what I mean? Yeah. You wake up better. Keep go- I mean, dude, I'm... I say it all day lo- I say it in my sleep sometimes, all the same shit.
Like- If you want to lift the city, if you wanna get more people feeling good, you gotta be able to do it for yourself first. You can't, like, I see so many people, like, everybody wants to fucking fight for a cause that, like, in reality, like, you can't really move the needle. Mm-hmm. But the one thing you can do right fucking now is tighten your own game up.
Yeah. Be a better, be the type of person that people are gonna listen to, because you're doing all this shit right, so people are like, "Oh, well, I mean, look at this guy. He's got his shit together." So you got, you have- Yeah ... you know, Strong New York Rehabilitation Through Fitness and Nutrition. Yeah. That, that's, that's it.
Yeah. Rehabilitation through fitness and nutrition, just like you have rehabilitation through the arts. Yeah. Well, we, we partner every year for the event, we partner with different, um, different brands or different charity groups. Couple years ago, we did the Release Recovery Foundation, which is, um, anybody who's suffered from addiction, they get them back on their feet and help them out with fitness.
This year, uh, I actually need to call her. You know who Anne Mahlum is? She's a woman, she created SolidCore. Anyway- Mm ... she has a charity event. I went to the charity event a couple weeks ago. And basically they help, uh, homeless people get back on their feet. But the way they do it is fascinating. I love it.
And, and this is why I wanna get involved and- She is in New York? Uh, she lives down in Florida now, but she was in New York for a while. But anyways, she, um, she created this charity, and it's in 15 different cities around the country now, and, and she started about 20 years ago. But she basically started to have- I wrote her.
She was in Pennsylvania and she was jogging. Yes. And she started helping homeless people start jogging with her. Yes. And it's called Back On Your Feet. Yes. I wrote her from prison when I found out about her. I'm ... I could put you in touch with her. Yes. She's a friend of mine. Yes. So I wanna partner with them, 'cause I go, that to me is the antithesis- Mm-hmm
of what I believe in. Mm-hmm. If you operate- Mm ... like a fucking high performer, you become one. And that's her whole charity. But even beyond that, and I remember reading this like it was yesterday, even beyond that, it goes back to what I said when I talked about public safety being about the presence of opportunity.
Mm-hmm. Those homeless guys, she could run 2:00, 3:00 in the morning, they made sure she was all right. They were running with her. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They secured her because she gave them an opportunity to become healthy. Yeah. To be seen, right? She saw them and said, "Come on, get on your feet," and she sent them running.
Yeah. And she's ... I- if, if a- anybody got near her while she was running- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... they had a problem. Yeah, yeah. 'Cause those guys surrounded her. You know what I told somebody the other day? Uh, we were walking, and obviously around here there's a couple homeless people here and there, and they were like, "Why do you always s- say something to them?"
I go, "'Cause they're still people." That's right. Like, I never, I never wanna not acknowledge them, right? It's still somebody. I'm like, "A- hey, you got some change?" I'm like, "No, man, sorry, I don't have any cash on me." And normally I don't fucking have cash on me. Um, but there are so many times where I'm like, "Fuck, man, what happened?"
Mm-hmm. You know? Like, even yesterday I saw this older Asian woman, and she's laying on the ground, and I'm like, I wanna really fucking say to her, like, "Where the fuck do you think it went south?" Because everybody has a story. 'Cause everybody's got a- And you know that ... yeah. B- and I'm like, it ... And you could be handed so many different- shit situations.
Mm-hmm. Like you had the perfect storm of bullshit happening. You had a shit prosecutor, you had a shit attorney. Mm-hmm. The system's shit, worse then than it is now, and here you are, and you have this great outlook on life, and you've turned your life around, and it's fucking such an awesome story. Thank you, man.
And as, as, you know, fucked up as that sounds- Yes ... like, oh my God, like, oh, every- But because of your struggle, it's almost like serving this country. Yeah. Because of your struggle, because you went off to fucking war, the rest of us live a little bit better. Because you, the shit you went through, you make sure other people live a good life.
And sometimes you're h- it's hard to be like, "Fuck, why'd I have to be that guy?" Mm-hmm. You know? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So, you know, kinda take us through that. S- I mean, but why not me? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? And you may start off with saying why I had to be that guy, but then now why, why not me? Yeah. Right? And it's funny you say that, because I was just telling, uh, one of your guys- Justin
I was just telling Justin that about three weeks ago, I became a board member of Jericho Project, which provides housing to unhoused veterans, right? Mm-hmm. Those that have substance abuse, those that have PTSD, those that have mental illness, and those that come out of prison. They recently made me a board member.
So now it's really about trying to provide housing for them so that they can thrive, right? Mm-hmm. So if, if you will allow yourself to be that vessel by which good comes, you know, despite the fact that you had to go through some severe hardships, you wanna be that vessel of honor now, where good comes through.
And that's what it means to, for me, that's what it means to not just honor my own potential, but to honor the potential of Travis Lee, the deceased in my case. Mm-hmm. Despite being not guilty, I can still honor his potential, his potential by living not just for myself- Mm-hmm ... but for others, and being that conduit by which others can have and create a better life for themselves.
Dude, I honestly, like, Peter told me your story, and I was like, "Fuck, man, I got, I wanna sit down. I wanna fucking chat with him," 'cause the s- physical, mental, and emotional strength that fucking burns in your soul is so impressive. For you, like, you know, you think about so many people that that would happen to.
I mean, you look at, what's the gentleman's name? Kalief Browder. You know, he took his own life. Yeah. And that, it's hard. Yeah. And he didn't fuck- Yeah ... I mean, he didn't go through what you went through. Yeah. I had, I had a bunkie. When I first went upstate, the prison in New York State had become so crowded that, uh, Governor Pataki at the time started making the first three cells in every maximum security were double bunk.
So there were two guys in each cell. So when you first got to the prison, you had to do 90 days or to six months inside the double bunk with another person. And there was a guy in the cell with me named Darryl Austin, and this was in 1996 when I first went upstate. In 1999, Darryl Austin took his own life.
15 years later, he was exonerated posthumously because he was innocent the whole time. She had been the victim of a rogue police officer from out of Brooklyn named Louis Scarcella, who's responsible for over 400 years of wrongful incarceration. Thus far, over 22 people have been exonerated that were victims of this one c- one police officer, Louis Scarcella.
He single-handedly put us back into slavery. Over 400 years- Yeah ... of wrongful incarceration. Yeah. And this guy would always tell me in the cell, "You're not the only one that's innocent. I am, too." And it got so heavy on him that he took his own life in 1999, and it took 10, 15 years later for him to be exonerated.
And now your life's work is basically to kind of- Help those that are on the margins of society. Yeah. Those that are justice impacted, that find themselves not having any hope. I'm here to tell them other people's experiences and that they can find the wherewithal to make it through that, right? Um, get on the Hope Train is what we call it.
The Hope Train, right? Get on that Hope Train because everybody gets on the train at a different stop, but every human being at some point in their life has to have hope or wish they had more hope. Mm. But has to understand and embrace hope. Hope is universal. Yeah. Right? But we all may get o- some may get on the stop, get on the, on the train at the addiction.
Some may get on, on, on, on homelessness. Mm. Right? We don't know what stop. Some might get on that train from prison. Next stop might be prison, and I might get on that train. But everybody has the same destination on the Hope Train, and that is towards hope, man. If you could sum up your definition of the strength you need to endure a hard life, what would you...
How would you sum that up? How would you put that together? I think that- I would sum it up by really saying if you can really find the wherewithal to understand why you're here
Then finding out how you accomplish what it is that you want. It's a journey, but it's a journey worth taking. It's a journey worth taking, and it's not gonna be easy. And sometimes when you're on that brink, don't give up. Don't let in. Where you are doesn't define who you are or what you can become. Mm-hmm.
I think that's the most important. I think a lot of people feel disenchanted and, uh, slighted in a way, and it's like when you start to dig deep and believe in yourself, then I think you could accomplish a lot out of life. Bruce, where could everybody find you? I could talk to you for fucking five hours.
Yeah. Where could everybody find you? You can find me, I'm on LinkedIn, Bruce A. Bryan, B-R-Y-A-N. I'm on Instagram @bruce.bryan24, the number 24. Bruce.bryan24. So, and shit, I'm hoping you can find me at Strong New York at some point. You will be there, my friend. Yes. You are a very strong man. Thank you so much, man.
Thank you so much. Um, guys, as always, thank you. Like, share, subscribe, and stay strong.