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Bristol Unpacked with Neil Maggs brings you fascinating and challenging conversations from characters of all stripes on big topics facing the city and beyond.
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Neil Maggs
Hello Tony Dyer,
Tony Dyer
Hello Neil Maggs.
Neil Maggs
How are you, sir? Are you okay?
Tony Dyer
I'm not too bad at all. Yeah, just getting on with stuff as best I can.
Neil Maggs
Last time you were on the show was five years ago in 2020 and you were then a lowly Green councillor, and you now come back on five years later as head honcho, the leader of the council. That's quite a change…
Tony Dyer
Yeah, and a relatively unexpected one. I mean, it wasn't something I planned. But to be honest, my entire political career has been unplanned. I mean, if you went back even a relatively short amount of time, I wasn't convinced about whether I wanted to be a councillor, let alone leader of the council.
Neil Maggs
Crikey. What we're going to do then Tony, I think we'll do a little sort of like review of the year, like a Tony school report. You can mark yourself, and I can mark you, and we'll go through a few things. But before we do that, there is some big political stuff to get into. But also there's quite a big topical thing that means quite a lot to you happening as we record this this evening, isn't there?
Tony Dyer
Presumably, you mean the first leg of the playoffs for Bristol City getting into the Premier League…
Neil Maggs
the football club that dare not speak its name, I call it
Tony Dyer
Well that's what we say about you guys.
Neil Maggs
Yeah, yeah. So it's the first leg tonight, isn't it? Bristol City against Sheffield United. You're a big you're obviously a South Bristol boy. Councillor in that area follows the club, but you can't be at the game.
Tony Dyer
No, unfortunately, they didn't chat with me before scheduling the playoffs.
Neil Maggs
You know is that's outrageous. Man in your position. But as people listen to this, we will know the outcome. This has been recorded a week before, so people will know the outcome of whether you're in the playoff final or not. Do you think you're gonna get through?
Tony Dyer
We've had a bit of a hiccup in no against Luton, and, I mean, we were really awful against Leeds, to be honest. But the second half against Preston, we started to play a bit
Neil Maggs
Had you lost that game, you might have been going in feeling a bit, you know… controversially, I put a tweet out, and I got loads of crap, I'll say, from actually, Rovers fans. I'm a Rovers fan, you know, home and away when I can. Because I said controversial statement, Bristol needs a Premier League team. Good luck city with the little eye emoji, and loads of Rovers fans went for me. I was being slightly tongue in cheek, but I it's not going to be Rovers, is it? So part of me so I'm a little bit softer towards City than I was in my formative years. It would be good for the city, wouldn't it?
Tony Dyer
Yeah, it would be good for the city. I mean, even if you took football out of it, it's just the economic impact. Our new chief executive was at Brighton when Brighton and Hove Albion got promoted to the Premier League, and the impact that had in terms of, not just investment, but also recognition of the city. I mean, Bristol, you would think would be well known already, but it is just a different class altogether.
Neil Maggs
It propels you, don't it propels you into the national consciousness a bit more, yeah.
Tony Dyer
And also it's just just the amount of non football related investment…
Neil Maggs
Well, let's see what happens anyway. Let's move away from football, because I could just keep going on about that for ages. First thing, literally, before you record this today, you're obviously a Green Party guy. Carla Denyer, your co leader has said she will not be standing as party leader going into the summer internal leader election. Was that a surprise for you?
Tony Dyer
A bit of a surprise, but not totally unexpected. I mean, four years leading the Green Party is a long time. It's probably seven or 10 years in any other party, I think because we aren't the easiest party to lead, and we do have a system in the Green Party where the leadership have to put themselves up for re election every two years or so. Carla works so hard. She's doing an excellent job as a local MP, but at the same time, the amount of work that's required to be leader, even co leader, in this instance, party is a lot, and I think, hopefully it will allow her to devote even more time to some of the local politics…
Neil Maggs
To be a constituency MP, and stuff like that. But it comes off the back of quite high profile announcement that Zack Polanski was standing I think a couple of days ago. Could that have been a sort of backdoor conversation that took place to open the field for him?
Tony Dyer
I don't think so. I think this was a decision that Carla has taken in isolation, just looking at her own personal circumstances, and what she felt was was the best thing for going forward, both for the party, but also in terms of the work she wants to do as as a local MP…
Neil Maggs
Obviously, you know, there may be other people that come forward to stand for the leadership role. Would you be supporting Jack Polanski?
Tony Dyer
I think I need to see who else is coming forward. Zach has pretty high profile. There's a lot of things he says that I have a lot of agreement with, but I think it would be dismissive of other potential candidates to put your support behind the first one to come out without waiting to see who comes forward.
Neil Maggs
He's had a bit of controversy, hasn't he in the past, as a hypnotherapist, something to do with… it was in all the tabloids, hypnotizing women to have breast either breast reductions or increases…
Tony Dyer
something about he was asked by a client to hypnotize them to feeling that their breasts were big enough. But, I mean, it's yeah… to be honest, I'm not really that much into tabloids lately.
Neil Maggs
What about the local media? I saw you today, actually, in Bristol, 24/7 and you have said, you know, we've recently had the West of England Mayor election, and it's gone to Helen Godwin from the Labour Party. And you have said, this is a reset, you sound quite positive that you can work as the leader of the council quite well with Helen Godwin, the new West of England mayor…
Tony Dyer
I think so. I mean, look, if we couldn't have a Green metro mayor, I think Helen was the obvious choice. I've known Helen for a while, as she used to be a councillor here in Bristol. She's always been, in my experience, open and honest and willing to work cross party. I think there's an opportunity for whoever comes in. I mean progress as has been made, and we are in a much better position already, but I think a fresh pair of eyes and a fresh approach coming in with Helen, I think, will give us that further impetus to take it to the next stage.
Neil Maggs
Sure, and time will tell. But would you say she's more of a natural collaborator than Dan Norris?
Tony Dyer
Yeah, I believe. So Helen's approach to politics is probably a bit closer to mine, which is obviously we're both proud to represent our parties, but at the same time, what drives us is our commitment to to both the city of Bristol, but also the wider region – we we have in the values of our parties, but at the same time, we recognize that there has to be a bit of give and take in order to get the best for the region.
Neil Maggs
I mean, the role is, in terms of its sort of power, you have to get everybody in agreement to a certain degree. Otherwise, there's just no movement or momentum. Whereas, obviously, with the previous the sort of city mayor model, you could drive things through regardless, you cannot do that, can you as a West of England mayor, you do need the buy in of the other local authorities.
Tony Dyer
Depending on what a decision is, you need at least a majority. Also, some cases, if something affects a particular leader's local authority, then in some instances, they have a veto. But it is about getting everybody on board. So that we're all going in the same direction. And I've seen Helen has the personality to do that. She has been very good in the past at reaching consensus, sure.
Neil Maggs
And just to, just to touch, sort of briefly, on the actual election itself, the candidate that you did choose, Mary Page, who is a former Lib Dem that came across to the Green Party, who kind of led the the anti-mayor campaign, to change the constitution in Bristol, but she put herself forward for the WECA mayor election – is that, is that an inconsistent position or not?
Tony Dyer
No, I don't think it is, because we're looking at two very different worlds. With the city mayor, a lot of decision making is concentrated in the hands of one person, whereas with the West of England Combined Authority mayor, it is a committee, and you have to convince the other members of the committee to vote with you.
Neil Maggs
And were you somebody personally that supported the removal of the Bristol mayoral position?
Tony Dyer
I had my doubts, to be honest. Now I've experienced working in the committee model, I think that that was the best decision. I think it's given us an opportunity to do things in a way that wouldn't have been possible under the mayor model. I can see more local authorities taking that route in the future. But at the time I was less convinced. I found there were some benefits from having the mayoral model. But I think the danger with a mayoral model sometimes is that you can end up getting yourself into a position where any sort of criticism or reproach is seen as a direct attack, rather than an opportunity to review and discuss your position.
Neil Maggs
And we are where we are now. You're kind of around a year and a bit on in the role. Your speech in November 2024 focused on the sort of low trust in politics, trying to win people's trust back, getting the basics right. You spoke about providing the best frontline services for the most vulnerable in Bristol, one of the key things that kind of happened as you walked in to office, was the reality of the finances? Given you had a relatively good relationship with the outgoing mayor and you were in the council chamber, were you? Were you surprised? And if you were, why did you not know this before?
Tony Dyer
I think we had an idea that the finances were in difficulties. I mean, obviously we'd been scrutinizing the finances, both in the Overview and Scrutiny management board, but also in the Budget Task Group that was looking at the finances as well. And I think that's why we know as Greens, we decided not to vote for the budget in 2024 because we felt there were some concerns. And I think some of those concerns when we got into the office are proven to be to be the correct assumptions that we made. But there are always things that are not always apparent. I mean, in some ways, when you go into an election, you're you're kind of like going into a second hand car sales, and you're buying a car, but you're not allowed to look under the bonnet too closely.
Neil Maggs
Is complaining about the finances just a thing people do when they get into power? You know, Labour are doing it nationally, aren't they, with the Tories? I think I remember Marvin coming in and saying the same thing about George Ferguson before. Is that just not a thing that people do when they come into power, because it sort of buys them a bit of time?
Tony Dyer
Yeah, I think there can be a tendency to do that. I think, to be honest, well, what we had said previously – and we weren't the only ones saying it. I mean, the administration themselves were saying now, no, we're having financial difficulties because we've had what, 14 years of austerity and on numerous occasions, members of the Labour group had stood up in in the chamber and basically said about, know, the impact that cuts from a central government were having on on the council's finances. You can't stand up in the chamber and say that and then turn around and say, but our finances are all perfectly fine, and everything that you see is as it should be. We’ve got to make sure we don't make that same mistake either of saying, Oh yeah, you know, the finances were terrible when we came in. Now, hopefully everything is coming up roses. We've found a magic money tree somewhere.
Neil Maggs
Obviously, when the local Green Party, were in opposition, you were quite critical of the cuts that the cabinet were making, that essentially the Labour cabinet were making, and then now you've obviously come into the position of power. Is this a bit of a wake up call, a little bit of real world politics, for people in the Green Party?
Tony Dyer
I mean, one of the biggest problems we faced is savings that were being put into the budget and then not actually delivered. So then we're having to make those savings again. And I think that was one of the things, is, was the to be blunt, what we felt was a lack of financial controls about making sure people kept within their budget commitments. So we've introduced those now they've it's been painful, and it's taken a while for for officers to get used to them, but I think they have now bought into that and realized that they need to play their their part within that, yeah, it can't just be left to the financial team to patrol the budget. Everybody has to play their part.
Neil Maggs
And this is a reality that a lot of people don't realize. I mean, you're on record saying local government is facing some of the biggest challenges it has ever faced.
Tony Dyer
Yeah. You only have to look at it here in Bristol, to in a certain extent, we've dodged the bullet. We manage to find ways of controlling our finances, but we've also had to make significant cuts, and £42 million worth of cuts. And yeah, I know I'm supposed to say savings, but saying savings when you're the person that know is on the receiving end of it, doesn't make you feel any better.
Neil Maggs
Is that quite hard for you to acknowledge that reality, and hard for people in your party that are probably coming in with lots of ideas and hopes, we want to change this, we want to do that. And you kind of get there and you think, Oh, you haven't got money to do that. There have been some specific U turns. Haven't there? You know, promises that you made before the election that you haven't been able to enact.
Tony Dyer
I think what, the way I would describe it, is that we we've come in and we've had to take a real look at not just the situation we were facing when we came in. Don't forget we also came in to find that we'd been referred to the Regulator of Social Housing because of the failure to look after our council housing properly. Our planning system was in special measures. We'd gone into the government’s safety valve because of problems with controlling our dedicated schools grant. And we had problems in social care and children and education in general. So there were a lot of things that had piled up, and the majority of that, I would say would be down to local government is not being funded properly, and it hasn't been funded properly for decades. What we're seeing as a result of that is more and more the funding that we're we're having to get to pay for the services that we need to deliver is largely coming from business rates and council tax, and increasingly, people are being asked to pay more council tax because we have a statutory duty to deliver services, and those services are… the demand for those is increasing In children and adult social care in particular,
Neil Maggs
So your time as leader, if I was to ask you to mark yourself out of 10, what would you give yourself? And why?
Tony Dyer
Five.
Neil Maggs
Really?! That's quite low.
Tony Dyer
Reason why I'll give us five is because we have worked hard to deliver a balanced budget, but there is so much more that we wanted to do in this first year. And yeah, we've not been able to do a lot of those things because we've had to get the finances right. So I can't give myself a higher mark, because it's where we are at the moment. Is not where I would have wanted to be when I first stepped into this seat.
Neil Maggs
Do you think those in your party would give you a similar rating, or, you know, a local taxpayer in the city would rate you at five or higher or lower?
Tony Dyer
I don't know. I think eventually all of us will be judged out the ballot box. What I'm hoping is that now we have got ourselves an element of financial sustainability. There is still a lot of work for us to do to deliver the budget we set – that budget has considerable amounts of investment into core services, some £63 million or so, into things like social care, children and young people and temporary accommodation. Once we start delivering those services, then I hope to be able to give myself a higher score, but we still have a long way to go.
Tony Dyer
A couple of specifics. And is there anything that that you've done well that you're particularly proud of in that time?
Tony Dyer
Yeah, well, I mean, I'll say my proudest achievement is, and this is going to sound boring, but you can't do anything if you've got a section 114 notice – declaring yourself bankrupt – issued and the commissioners are coming in and cutting everything to the bone. I mean, if you look at what's happening in Birmingham or Nottingham, we're not there. And part of the reason we're not there is because we worked hard to make sure we've got a budget where we're not having to issue a section 114 notice, we're not having to ask for additional financial support from the government. And I think by doing that, that gives us the opportunity to do more next year to look at those more positive things that we want to do in our second and third and even fourth year. So delivering our balanced, sustainable budget is the thing I'll be proudest of.
Neil Maggs
Anything that you think, Oh, damn, I wish I could have done that, but I haven't.
Tony Dyer
Yeah, I mean, there's, there's a few things, and some of those are my fault, I think, in terms of communicating information to people about particular promises we made, I should have been better at communicating that saving the site of nature conservation interest (SNCI) at Yew Tree Farm would take longer. It wasn't possible for me just to walk in and make that change.
Neil Maggs
And you've had some criticism for that, haven't you?
Tony Dyer
Yeah, and some of that is justified criticism. I should have communicated where we were on that better, but we have now reached our position where there will be no expansion of the crematorium onto the SNCI. And I think in other areas where perhaps I could have done better, is communication over Eagle House (south Bristol youth services) about what was actually possible and what we might be able to do. I think there are options that we're bringing forward to that, and we'll go out to the community to see what option they would prefer.
Neil Maggs
And obviously, with the change of the committee system, it's a slightly different approach. And when you approach than when you got in there. I thought what was quite interesting when you came into position, Labour refused to take up a committee chair positions. Is that likely to change?
Tony Dyer
I think that's down to the Labour Party first and foremost. I think we're now in a…
Neil Maggs
They accused you of a bit of a stitch up with the Lib Dems, didn't they? I mean, I don't mean, I don't know what you know whether that's true or not, but I just wonder whether you know you talk about Helen Godwin building consensus. Is that, is it not your job to try and build consensus with the Labour Party as well?
Tony Dyer
Yeah, which is why we know when they said they didn't want to take the chairs, we allowed them to take Vice Chair positions, which, I mean, we went in on the idea that the chair and representation on the policy committees should be shared out proportionally. So that would have worked out, I think, at four Greens, two Labour and one each from the Lib Dems and the Conservatives. Now, labour decided they didn't want to take their two chairs, and the Conservatives felt that, no, they didn't deserve theirs because they had lost half of their seats or so, and that's perfectly within their right to do. So, I mean, it's, you can't force people to take on chair positions if they don't feel it's a good thing for them to do. So, yeah, that's democracy. That's the way it was. People get to make choices.
Neil Maggs
You made some clear pledges in your manifesto in 2024. We mentioned the basics. You wanted more, I guess, democratic engagement in the process. You know, things like working better with WECA, but citizens assemblies, stuff like that. Transport, improving buses, improving walking and cycle infrastructure was one thing. You focused on housing, affordable homes, targeting young people, prioritizing places in specialist schools, increasing youth provision health and social care. You said you want to work with the Bristol disability commission to manage the adult social care budget, and environment, which we'll get onto in a little bit more depth, a little bit later around to measure, to adapt Bristol for climate change. If I just zoom in a little bit on transport, one of the big, big, sort of wedge issues of criticism has been around the liveable neighbourhoods, which is traffic reduction schemes, particularly the one in St George and Barton Hill area. Could you have handled that better, and could you have consulted with local residents in a more effective way than you have?
Tony Dyer
I think that's a good question, and I think my view is we need to find out. We inherited the scheme from the previous administration, so some engagement had been done previously. And then we came in and did essentially, we went into the implementation stage. With hindsight, maybe what we should have done was reviewed the engagement and consultation at last stage. I think, given what has happened at some point, we probably need to look back and make sure that the engagement that took place was adequate for the East Bristol Liveable Neighbourhood. So I think, as something is being discussed now, I had spoken to the previous WECA mayor and the police and crime commissioner about it, about what can we do to look back and just basically all the engagement took place, was it the right type of engagement? Our transport teams today, they are confident it is, but I think that there may be a need just to double check that, to make sure.
Neil Maggs
Why do you think it's been so unpopular?
Tony Dyer
I don't think it's unique in that aspect. I think liveable neighbourhoods elsewhere, if you look at some of the work in Oxford and in London, I think there is the potential for any form of liveable neighbourhood, or for any form of changes that are perceived or actually seen to restrict people's ability to move in our motor vehicles tends to generate a lot of opposition. I think what we have to do is accept that is the amount of opposition are being generated.
Neil Maggs
Does that reflect some valid concerns? And if so, I mean, I guess the wider point is it's around sort of people feeling changes are being made to their communities without actually having a real say in those changes. I mean, you know, it's a tricky one, isn't it? The East Bristol one, because you do have people in St George that probably are pro this stuff. But when you start going into into Barton Hill, seems to be sort of a universal opposition to it…
Tony Dyer
I think that's what we need to find out now, is there universal opposition in Barton Hill? It goes back to that point about doing that level of engagement. Also goes back to one of the other points to add about democracy, engagement.
Neil Maggs
It's just not an ideological thing, though, a little bit with the Green Party? That, you know, there have been people involved, I think one of the local councillors who's lobbied for, you know, and works for anti traffic organizations that are kind of involved in pushing this stuff through…
Tony Dyer
No, the original proposals came from the Labour administration. I don't think you would say that the Labour Party is ideologically opposed to cars. To be honest. I don't think the Greens necessarily have either. I think in both parties there are a mixture of views about how you address. But in the end, it doesn't really matter what individual Green councillors think alone, because what we have to do is we have to find out how effective the intervention will be, and if it is going to be effective and is going to work properly, if that's the case, then we need to also find out why people are so opposed to it in some parts of the liveable neighbourhood area.
Neil Maggs
And the four-weekly bin collection stuff. You got quite a lot of criticism for that. There was quite a strong sort of Labour campaign to sort of discredit what you were doing, and local communities were up in arms about it a bit. And you did pivot, and did change. So it's important to listen as well. You show you can do that.
Tony Dyer
Yeah, I mean, we put out a consultation because there are changes being bought in, national legislation that will significantly increase the cost of waste services if we don't improve the recycling, one of the ways that you can improve the recycling is by changing the frequency of collections. So I think now all three of our surrounding authorities have gone to three-weekly collections. The residents of Bristol certainly aren't ready for four-weekly collections, and I would say pretty much aren't ready for three-weekly collection based on the consultation. So we need to look at what the options are, what other things we can do in order to avoid ourselves having a massive extra cost within the next couple of years or so.
Neil Maggs
Some stuff you haven't been able to do that you said you would do. You mentioned Yew Tree Farm, that was quite a big issue that was pushed by people that were standing as Green councillors. And there's been quite a lot of anger from that. That must be an interesting position to be in. I remember previously when some new Labour councillors had gone from being community activists to then having to make difficult decisions – when you cross the Rubicon, and it's actually, you know, you've been accused of letting them down. And I just didn't know whether that was a thing that's sort of driven a bit of a division in the Green party, a bit.
Tony Dyer
I think what we've done with Yew Tree farm is, we said we will protect the SNCI from development. And the development that we were protecting it from was the crematorium expanding onto the SNCI site, which is council owned land. And we've done that. We delivered on our promise. We are not allowing burial sites to be put onto the SNCI. Now, in order to do that, we have had to look at putting some drainage across the field. But once that drain is installed, the land will then be returned to to its SNCI status. It's a relatively small drain. We'll use the least intensive methods that are practical to use to do that, and then it would be an SNCI site again, okay?
Neil Maggs
And you're comfortable with that?
Tony Dyer
I'm comfortable that it will remain a site of nature conservation interests. I mean, one of the things that was a problem was that, though there was some scrubland on the site which needed to be removed because that was conflicting with its site of nature conservation interests. We also need to resolve the cattle, the grazing license for the cattle, and I hope we're being able to do that very soon as well.
Neil Maggs
It's an uncomfortable fit, isn't it, and particularly because certain issues quite strongly were campaigned and there was an opposition to the Labour cabinet on certain issues that you wanted to change. And then when you get into that position, it's maybe not as straightforward as you thought. Another example is obviously the special education needs, which was a big criticism for Bristol City Council leaders in general under Labour, we've had teachers taking the council to court. Jen Smith in April, one of the mums involved in the SEND spying scandal, she called you – well Bristol City leaders, including you –bent weak cowards, for not following through on a motion passed under the previous mayor to carry out an independent inquiry. Do you want to respond to that?
Tony Dyer
I mean, you can stand up in public forum and pretty much say whatever you like, it's not going to change how we approach tackling the problem that we have in send we are working with the government to try and find a way to provide the special education needs, places for the children that need them. I mean, we have, I think, 13,000 children in the city that have special education needs and disabilities. My focus is on – and working with Christine Townsend as well, who leads on education – our priority is with children services. It's been through a difficult stage. We need to get ourselves in the position where we can deliver for those children that requires special education needs and disability. And in some instances, that's going to take a while to do, because we inherited a system that isn't working. And I think the government has recognized that this system isn't working either, which is why, since the new government come in, they haven't put any more councils into the safety valve program was was sold as being a way of resolving this issue.
Neil Maggs
Housing. Do you feel you're on target? Because you've been criticized for pulling out of some fairly major housing projects, aren't you in Hengrove and in near the harbourside? By your own admission, things are a bit slower.
Tony Dyer
I mean, I've, I mean, there's a few things to address here. First of all, in terms of the housing. So the housing is still being delivered as social housing. The idea was that it would be coming from our housing revenue account, which is our ring fenced account for council housing, would buy those zones. We aren't in the position to do that because we've had to invest in sorting out the problems left behind us by the failure to look after our own council housing. We prioritize making sure that our residents are safe, that they are living in Decent Homes. That meant money hasn't been available in the same way as it was before to buy the homes from Baltic Wharf down by the harbourside, and from the first part of Hengrove. However, those zones will still be social housing because we've worked to get alternative partners in place to take on those homes. So that's that's the first part, and hopefully we'll be able to change the focus back a bit, but I don't think it's ever going to change. Second part is that we are delivering at the moment 1,800 affordable homes under construction in the city. We want to get higher than that…
Neil Maggs
That 1,800 is that staggered over a three year period? Is that right?
Tony Dyer
These are the 1,800 homes that are currently being built.
Neil Maggs
Now you've set a target, haven't you, until March 2028?
Tony Dyer
Now it's additional homes to come come in as well, but they're not actually being built yet, until they actually get planning permission I'm not counting them, and yeah, we also have all those homes with planning permission that we still want to bring forward. We need to find a way to get those built as well.
Neil Maggs
Okay, young people, since we've spoken the last time I interviewed you, five years ago, there's been, you know, a number of tragic incidents of knife crime murders in the city, from young people to young people. Do you have a plan to try and tackle this?
Tony Dyer
So what we have is we've set up and working with partners. Obviously, it's not just a council on its own. It's working with the education system, working with the police, working with our services and other support services. We're working with the universities.
Neil Maggs
You're doing a lot of research to find out what has worked out as well, is something that is ongoing. Are we making progress?
Tony Dyer
Well, until knife crime has ended completely on our streets, then progress isn't good enough. But there are a lot of people putting the work in, putting the effort in, talking to people working with the different support services, so that we can try our best to make sure that we don't see this continuing. It’s wider than just the city, I mean, we're seeing it elsewhere in the country as well, and it is something that we also need from outside to help us tackle the problem.
Neil Maggs
Would the implementation of more youth clubs help?
Tony Dyer
Well, we got the youth zone in South Bristol, which you will be familiar with, I think having places that people can go. I mean, we have now you've shown is going to be a large facilities with a lot of opportunities and a lot of support available.
Neil Maggs
I remember conversation we had some time ago, near about we both kind of found out you also need to have those smaller youth clubs now are more local to people, yeah, which is a kind of model that's disappeared a bit, isn't it? For more bigger, bigger youth hubs, I suppose, that serve a wider area, the old fashioned local community centre youth club thing is, well, most of them have been closed and shut Haven't they? I just didn't know whether there was a move to try and bring some of that back. Perhaps – you mentioned Eagle House earlier, didn't you as an example of something like that? Is this part of your kind of plan to bring back more community grassroots provision?
Tony Dyer
It's something we want to look at. Obviously, it requires working with local communities and making sure they also are supported to look after those types of places, because sometimes we can transfer something over to a local community, and then it ends up being a burden on them, because they have to then make on responsibility for keeping under repair. We are also bringing forward what are called Family hubs. They're going to be coming forward which will support families, and whether we can also, then look at doing youth clubs of some sort. I think it's something worth exploring. I mean, we have limited funding, but I think having some small youth clubs or youth facilities as well as the larger ones.
Neil Maggs
Well, an interesting point is, there are an awful lot of schools that are empty in the evening, that aren't used. You know, people always think about building new youth clubs, you know, which is great, but also there are community spaces that aren't used…
Tony Dyer
yeah, and I think what we probably need to look at is more to use places so that one type of use can help support the other. Because a lot of the reason why those youth clubs closed was simply because there wasn't the money to keep them going…
Neil Maggs
Let's personalize things a little bit to you. Do you like being the sort of front man? I say you strike me more as a Noel Gallagher than a Liam Gallagher…
Tony Dyer
To be fair, if I had 10% of Noel Gallagher's talent, I wouldn't be the leader at all. I’d be earning millions…
Neil Maggs
I mean, like to be a bit more blunt, you like to be sort of pulling the strings a little bit rather than the singer…
Tony Dyer
I find the public face… the PR stuff is probably something I'm less comfortable with, because sometimes you go to events, and it always feels like you know that imposter syndrome, you know, in the end, I'm just a kid from Hartcliffe, and in sometimes you just, you find yourself, you feel that.
Neil Maggs
You still feel that?
Tony Dyer
Yeah I mean, it doesn't come natural to me. I think I always feel somebody else’s much better at public speaking than I am and but the stuff I do enjoy is, is, is more the meetings are probably more out of the public eye when you meet community groups.
Neil Maggs
And I say that because you're slightly – and maybe people didn't want that anymore – but George Ferguson was quite a showman, quite a frontman, sort of enjoyed that probably more than the detail stuff, and Marvin Rees to, I think to a certain degree. But to me, you're more of a, like, a chairman, and I don’t mean disparagingly at all, like it's just a different kind of approach.
Tony Dyer
It's different from the mayoral system. There is a lot more… you need to use soft power a lot more, because you're not always the decision maker. And I think that sometimes people assume I'm the one making the decisions, but we are policy committees where the most of the decisions are made.
Neil Maggs
Maybe you're more Bonehead from Oasis then!
Tony Dyer
I think probably you’d get a few people who agree with you calling me boneheaded!
Neil Maggs
I think for you, it's always been quite interesting, because, yes, you're a Green Party. But I think we spoke last time. You know, people can go back and listen to our previous interview. You spoke at length about your dad and your dad's involvement in Bristol Labour Party, and how you should really be a kind of Labour person. And you were, I think I've said it before, you're like the Labour Party's favourite Green. But you're in a position now where you do have to stand up and make decisions, and you are accountable, whether it is a comfortable fit or not as a public face. And that transition to being publicly known in whatever walk of life can take a little bit of time to get comfortable with. Are you enjoying it?
Tony Dyer
Am I enjoying being a leader of the council? Yeah, yeah. I think 90% of the time you're working with people you are also equally devoted to the city. I'm not just talking about elected members, officers, people representing various community groups, volunteer organizations. There is such a wide range, the business community, the universities. You meet them and time and time again, it's clear that they are committed to making the city a better place. And I think 90, 95% of the time is a real joy. The other 5% is often, when I've done something, and I think I should have done that better…
Neil Maggs
Criticism, like in social media, which you know some politicians in the city struggle with that a little bit. Do you accept that comes with the job? Do you think some of us in the media need to sometimes realize that you guys are human beings as well?
Tony Dyer
I mean, unless I missed something and you've done something new, you haven't told me about but as far as I'm aware. I mean, I think the media have been pretty upfront about where they think we're doing something wrong. I think maybe occasionally, asking just to double check whether something is as accurate as it was written down would be…
Neil Maggs
You mean pushing back a little bit if something's not accurate, or how it's portrayed and stuff?
Tony Dyer
Yeah. I think in some instances, in one or two instances where something had been said, like, no, the Greens are introducing four-weekly bin collections when it was, you know, we were consulting on a range of options.
Neil Maggs
But that was kind of spun by the Labour Party. Wasn't it on their social media accounts. There's a little bit of that goes on. There's a bit of a game of, you know, misinformation and sleight of hand and the media react to that, don't they, which they know when they put stuff out. That's the thing I always find with politics and politicians that, you know, it's a bit like being famous. It's like you're going to be built up, but you're going to be knocked down a bit as well, and you've got to take rough with smooth I think…
Tony Dyer
Yeah. I mean, if you didn't want to get criticized, then don’t become a politician… I remember having a conversation with a couple of Green councillors about the budget, and they were complaining that the budget was only focusing on the amendments, which was only about 0.1% of the budget. And I said, Well, it was exactly the same when we were the ones putting in amendments. So I mean, you know
what you're seeing now is and what you're feeling is probably what the administration were feeling when we were putting in amendments, and everybody was talking about them, despite them only being a tiny percentage of the budget.
Neil Maggs
Well, exactly. It's a bit of a kind of like, you know, boot’s on the other foot. Let's just quickly touch on net zero. We mentioned Carla Denyer earlier. She won a unanimous backing on declaring a climate emergency in Bristol and a commitment to achieve carbon neutrality by 2030 that clearly isn't going to happen. Are going to change that target?
Tony Dyer
We're going to have to. I mean there's a couple of areas where we were facing particular problems. One of those is retrofitting. Getting our buildings down to a point where they are as close to net zero as possible is going to take a lot longer than 2030, also, it requires us to secure the funding to do it, because we can’t do on our own. I think if you look at Bristol alone, the cost of getting to net zero is probably somewhere in the region of £7-8billion, and obviously I don't have that down the back of the sofa anywhere. So we need to find a way of bringing our investment in. I think this government is much more realistic about the need to get to net zero. And I think we are starting to see some activity there. Obviously we have Kerry McCarthy, one of our local MPs now in the Department of Energy Security and net zero, so hopefully Kerry, working with Ed Miliband, can bring that forward as well with some of the support we need.
Neil Maggs
Does it matter that when you set those targets, that you hit them?
Tony Dyer
It's a sort of marker more than anything. I think it's an indicator of travel. But at some point, if you want to get somewhere, you have to start having targets, and then you have to start delivering on those targets.
Neil Maggs
What role can Bristol play? You know, this is obviously a huge issue. You can set climate emergency targets for cities, but we do know that this is, you know, a national, global issue, what? What role can Bristol play on the biggest stage in trying to achieve carbon neutrality?
Tony Dyer
Yeah, well, couple of things. First of all, you can make that argument for pretty much every city in in the word, if they don't hit climate targets, then none of us will. We all play our part, and we we have to make our contribution to get into net zero. So there may be other places are not doing as well as we are, but that's simply an excuse for us not trying to do the best we can. Secondly, Bristol is seen, though, as one of the leaders on this we were the European Green Capital. We have an internationally renowned team that works on climate mitigation measures. We have the City Leap looking to bring in up to a billion pounds of private investment, and we have various other innovations. So we should be the ones leading the way on this. And I think there is quite a lot we can do, and quite a lot we are going to continue to do in order to get to that net zero target. But we shouldn’t pretend to ourselves it's going to be easy to do it by even by 2050, or 2040.
Neil Maggs
Do you think people's focus has become, you know, like the Overton Window, sort of shifts a bit, if you sort of go back, sort of two, three years ago, there seemed a lot of people on environmental issues. With the sort of political landscape change – from Trump to the populism rising across Europe and beyond – there’s an increase in sort of skepticism about this stuff. Isn't there, or it not being that important, or there's an industry that's wasted an awful lot of money. Do you think people are beginning to become a bit jaded, and it's losing a bit of momentum?
Tony Dyer
I know what you're saying, but I think what I'm seeing is the opposite. There might be some public views that again, more airing now than they possibly did in the past, but what I'm seeing in reality is that we're actually ramping up the work that we're doing to get to net zero. And I think it's an interesting thing about a difference between perception in terms of what people are saying and what I'm seeing as the reality of this stuff is actually happening both here in Bristol, but also elsewhere in the UK and in Europe.
Neil Maggs
Climate change is being weaponized a bit as a culture war thing, though, isn't it as well? Yeah, by Reform, you know, by people on the right, and it has been for some time, and no, you see it in the US as well. But you also obviously, as those parties to the right that are skeptical about this stuff, gain, you know, like Trump in America, or here we need to be. Just come off the back of a recent local elections where, you know, Reform Party has given a bloody nose to the Tories and Labour. They're going to come with all that stuff as well, and that ain't going anyway anytime soon. It's becoming a bit of a wedge issue now…
Tony Dyer
But now a lot of issues that are also being used as a wedge issue, immigration being an obvious one, and I think there will always be parties or groups, who will look to take a negative approach to whatever they think will get them votes in the end. However, even in the United States, and I think it's probably one of the benefits of United States being a federal system, you still have many of the states are continuing to work on the climate mitigation programs that they've been working on previously, even if they're not necessarily getting the same level of support from the federal government as before.
Neil Maggs
You mentioned immigration. Last time you were on we spoke about south Bristol, your neck of the woods, perhaps being vulnerable to far right politics. We've just seen Arron Banks in the region run, you know, not that far off Helen Godwin, you know, finished second in a region that you would expect it not to do, you know, Reform Party not to do particularly well. Are you concerned that Bristol South could be vulnerable to a Reform Party MP?
Tony Dyer
We need to look at one of the underlying causes of this, and I think part of that is there is a feeling that's been around for a long time in parts of South Bristol, including the part that I grew up in, that they are not being given the same opportunities that other people are getting elsewhere in the city, that they they see their standard of living getting worse, while, you know, the rich are getting richer. And it's it's ironic that often the people are taking advantage of that are people with lots of money themselves, who haven't shared it around, and haven't paid their taxes. The West of England Combined Authority, if you actually break down that result a bit more. I mean, the first thing to mention is the low turnout, the 30% I mean, that's a very low turnout. It didn't help. It being a standard election, did it? I just you know, whereas previously, when people voted for West England, Westminster local councillors and other things, having that as just a standard election itself probably affected that.
Neil Maggs
But do you think there could be a Reform Party, MP in that, in that part of the city?
Tony Dyer
I think it's unlikely. And the main reason I think it's unlikely is, unless Reform are prepared to put the real investment into winning the vote in Bristol south, they won't win. But also…
Neil Maggs
Okay, I hear you. But also, sort of, more broadly speaking, the Green Party, you know, are, you know, and definitely were positioning themselves as an alternative to the two mainstream parties, you know, the Lib Dems as well. But how can you make issues around social justice, climate justice, relevant to people from working class backgrounds, again, so they don't fall into the hands of this stuff. And like you, I understand why they are. I'm not, you know, a hand-wringing liberal. A lot of people kind of will point fingers and say, there's reasons for this. We need to understand why that is. But how can Greens sort of position themselves a bit as well?
Tony Dyer
Okay, so, I mean, first thing I think, I don't think it's just the responsibility of the Greens. I mean…
Neil Maggs
Of course, I just said, well, as an alternative to the mainstream parties like reform, what can you do?
Tony Dyer
Okay, so I think there are two things to look at. I mean, I think in general, what parties like Reform are going to do is, in those areas, they're playing on the politics of despair, they're playing on the negativity of people feeling and being let down. And the only way you can combat that is people are feeling let down, and often, obviously, we're with fairly good reason. They have been let down by political parties over the years. I think what we need to do, and that doesn't apply just to the Greens, but no you asked about the Greens, I think what we need to do is twofold, is to deliver for those communities, because it doesn't matter what you say, until people living in Filwood, people living in Bishopsworth, until they actually start to see investment coming into their areas and improvements in their day to day lives because of things that progressive politicians are doing, then it doesn't matter what you say on your leaflets, what you say on your placards, if they're being left behind and unlistened to, then they are going to vote for what they see is the party that is the party of protest. The Green Party used to be a party of protest in Bristol. We're no longer a protest party. We have to recognize that we are now the party of governance, and we have to, over these next few years, start to look at how we can use our position in governance to deliver for those communities that are feeling left behind.
Neil Maggs
And that's something that you are personally wedded to from your own lived experience growing up, and partly what drew you into politics. And I think it's a big challenge for the Green Party, isn't it? It's a big challenge for you as leader of the council, really is, how are we going to make people feel listened to, not patronized services delivered feeling part of this successful part of Bristol, this perception of the city. I obviously do media stuff outside of Bristol, and what people think into the Bristol is is very, very different than some people's experience.
Tony Dyer
Yeah, and I'm not the only person who recognize it. I mean, I think one of the things I saw the WECA count was that some Labour councillors who represent in those areas were very distressed about what they saw was a complete repudiation of the work that they've done in those areas, and they have in many cases, worked very hard. We do need to look at what is it that we're not delivering? You can go back decades where we’ve had local plans and so on, saying we need to invest in South Bristol, and South Bristol is still the most deprived part of the city. We need to take a pause. We need to think, and not take too long to think, because no time is running out. We need to start to work out, what do we need to deliver in those areas, and we're talking about South Bristol, but there's also parts of North Bristol and East Bristol, and also in centre of Bristol where people are in areas of deprivation, and we need to find out why it is. Why are we not closing that gap?
Neil Maggs
Do you see the Reform Party is just exploiting that, then not actually offering solutions.
Tony Dyer
I think the we form party people are voting for them because the message that the Reform Party have given them is resonating with them. I mean, no whether we believe that's true or not, people are going to vote for Reform, and I don’t… I think if we want a thriving democracy, then then we need to have places like Hartcliffe where all four, all five parties are turning up, rather than just having all four or five parties turning up in Clifton, for instance, there needs to be as much attention given to Harttcliffe and Filwood and Southmead and Hillfields as is given to the centre of the city.
Neil Maggs
And final thought really, is that, is that something that you'd like to be your legacy as leader, would you like to shift the dial in the city? So focus is on those other areas outside the kind of the liberal bubble or the centre bubble of the city, is that where you really want to make real shift and change?
Tony Dyer
If we don't provide decent jobs and decent lives, Decent Homes for the people in the most deprived part of our city, then we failed. As simple as that, we aren't doing our job if we don't make sure that the people who need us the most get support and help from us so that they can live the best lives they're capable of living. It's as simple as that.
Neil Maggs
How much longer have you got in the role?
Tony Dyer
Oh, well, depends on whether my party keeps voting me back in as leader…
Neil Maggs
Okay, and would you want to carry on?
Tony Dyer
Yeah, definitely. I want to carry on until the public decide… so at least at the end of this term of office.
Neil Maggs
Okay, any, I don't know what we what we end on, really, any, any note of hope, of optimism, positivity, you know, it's obviously, you know, as we've outlined, a difficult time for council, finances, generally, it's a difficult time politically. Is there hope on the horizon?
Tony Dyer
Yeah. I am, in general, an optimistic person, and I think we have a new government that is at least prepared to listen to what we have to say at local government level with we didn't have before. So I think there is optimism. We have the opportunity to persuade central government to invest in local government. If that doesn't happen, then we will struggle as a country to reach our full potential.
Neil Maggs
Thank you Tony.
Tony Dyer
All right. Cheers, mate.
Neil Maggs
Do I say good luck to Bristol City or not?
Tony Dyer
You should do
Neil Maggs
No, no, I won’t… but thank you.
Tony Dyer
Take care, Neil. Bye.
Neil Maggs
Many thanks to the leader of the council, Tony Dyer, for joining us on this episode of Bristol unpacked. Subscribe to the show wherever you get your podcasts and join the cable at the Bristol cable.org, forward slash join I'm Neil Maggs. And a big thanks to our production team at the Bristol Cable, and a big thanks to you for listening. Bye for now.