So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People

NOTE: This episode contains language around infant loss and miscarriage. Take care while you listen.

Most law firms treat returning from parental leave as a routine transition. For many lawyers, it’s one of the most destabilizing periods of their careers.

In this episode of So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People, Megan Senese and Jennifer Ramsey are joined by Lori Mihalich-Levin, CEO and Founder of Mindful Return, author of Back to Work After Baby, co-host of the Parents at Work podcast, and a healthcare lawyer at The GME Group. Lori shares why returning to work after having a child is one of the most professionally disruptive transitions lawyers face—and what a more sustainable, intentional transition can look like.

What began as a moment of desperation, crying while washing bottles and caring for two young children, led to a critical realization: most workplaces treat return-to-work as a logistical event, not a human transition. In response, she built Mindful Return, a national platform supporting working parents through this exact inflection point. Lori shares what’s often left unspoken: postpartum anxiety, identity disruption, the invisible labor of reentry, and the pressure to perform as if nothing has changed. She also breaks down what a “mindful return” requires from both individuals and organizations and why community plays a central role in recovery and retention.

This episode is essential for anyone navigating parenthood and career and for leaders responsible for whether working parents thrive, struggle, or leave.

You’ll hear about:
  • Why Lori created Mindful Return after her own painful return-to-work experience
  • The personal and professional identity crisis that can come after parental leave
  • What working parents actually need during the transition back to work
  • How Mindful Return’s cohort model helps moms AND dads feel less alone
  • Why parenthood builds leadership skills we still don’t talk about enough
  • The case for better workplace support around miscarriage, infant loss, and mental health
  • How mindfulness, yoga, and community have helped Lori navigate both work and family life
About Lori Mihalich-Levin:

Lori Mihalich-Levin is the CEO & Founder of Mindful Return, a nationally recognized platform supporting working parents through parental leave and the transition back to work. She is the author of Back to Work After Baby, co-host (with her husband) of the Parents at Work podcast, and a healthcare lawyer at The GME Group. Her work has been featured in Forbes, The Washington Post, The New York Times Parenting, and more.

Learn More:

This episode is brought to you by: Latitude Legal

In partnership with Latitude Legal, stage offers four free business development sessions for any lawyer returning from parental leave. We call it Corduroy. It is open to any lawyer. We know how challenging it can be to be a working parent, and this is our way of giving back to the legal community through business development support. If you are interested in learning more about Corduroy for yourself or your team, you can email us at info@stage.guide. Thank you to Latitude Legal and Kyle Robisch for being the sole partner supporting our Corduroy initiative. They recognize the importance of supporting working parents in the legal industry and are generously underwriting this program. To learn more, visit www.latitudelegal.com or contact Kyle directly at KRobisch@latitudelegal.com.

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Creators and Guests

Host
Jennifer Ramsey
Host
Megan Senese

What is So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People?

Welcome to So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People where we explore the behind-the-scenes of work, law, life, and everything in between. We’re your hosts, business development and legal marketing coaches Jennifer Ramsey and Megan Senese, and we’re here to showcase the human side of the legal world, from marketing and consulting to the very real challenges of balancing ambitious careers with being human. This isn’t your typical, dry legal show. Instead, So Much To Say is a human-centered leadership, marketing, and culture podcast through the lens of law. We bring you real stories, candid conversations, and thoughtful insights that remind you that outside of being a lawyer or legal marketer, what makes you human matters too. So whether you’re navigating billable hours, building meaningful relationships, redefining success, or simply trying to stay human in a high-performance profession, this podcast is for you.
Stay human. Stay inspired. Namaste (or whatever keeps you human).

[00:00:00] Lori Mihalich-Levin: So I had two babies and I went back to work and I definitely struggled with postpartum anxiety, potentially postpartum depression, but no one diagnosed me. I was just sitting on the kitchen floor crying a lot and was very, very overwhelmed. Shortly thereafter, I was, you know, washing bottles and pump parts with my husband and I said to him, Hey, somebody really should create this community.
[00:00:23] But specifically for that transition back to work after parental leave, like mom, after mom would come into my office, close the door, burst into. Tears say, why is this so hard? Why is no one talking about the transition? Why does everybody believe that I am the same person who left this office a couple months ago?
[00:00:37] I thought to myself, nobody has created something, because once you leave this period of disaster, then you wanna put it behind you and you don't really wanna think about it again.
[00:00:47] Megan Senese: Welcome to So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People, where we dive into the beautiful chaos of work life and everything in between.
[00:00:55] Outside of being a lawyer or a legal marketer. We wanna know what makes you human. And with that, let's get started. Sometimes companies are formed out of pure desperation, and that's what our guest is going to talk to us about today. And what makes it so interesting is to hear from our guest that she had all the right credentials.
[00:01:21] And that seems to be the trend through our podcast. Lori's gonna talk to us about what it was like to return to work and the need she saw. If you know anything about stage in our business, you know that at our launch we have been offering for free business development sessions for any lawyer returning from their parental leave and Lori's company.
[00:01:45] Mindful return is another way that compliments how parents can return to work without it being horrendous. This episode is for anybody who manages parents, works with parents. Wants to support parents, and even if you are not a parent, we don't want you to discredit yourself. So if you wanna hear about how one person with all the right credentials at the top tier firm, top tier law school, had to leave legal to form a company because of, in her words, it was out of pure desperation, then this episode is for you.
[00:02:27] Jennifer Ramsey: Today we are joined by Lori Mahalick Levin jd, founder of Mindful Return, author of Back to Work After Baby, co-host of the Parents at Work podcast, and a healthcare lawyer at her firm, the GME Group. Lori is a nationally recognized thought leader on working Parenthood, whose work has been featured in Forbes, the Washington Post, the New York Times Parenting and More.
[00:02:50] And she's fresh off an incredible honor, mindful Return, just received gold for best wellness, postnatal service, and Lori took home Gold in the Mindful Mama category at the Mom Marketplace Awards. So, round of applause. Round of applause. She's a longtime advocate for women's leadership. A builder of deeply supportive communities and one of my favorite connections, a fellow yogi who believes mindfulness belongs not just on the mat, but in the workplace.
[00:03:19] Lori, we are so glad you are here.
[00:03:21] Megan Senese: I didn't send questions on purpose because I, I wanted it to be like super free flowing. You and I've met once before and then we've done some introductions for each other, and I just love that. And so I was reading more about your background and your bio, and I was just like, oh gosh.
[00:03:36] Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. So my gosh. Wow. Wow, wow, wow, wow. That's, that's your titles, those are your degrees, like all the like amazing firms that you've worked in, all your super impressive educational credentials, so, so impressive. Starting your own company always comes from a place of, not usually like, look how great and impressive everything is, usually comes from someplace else.
[00:03:57] So I'd love to hear in your words the story of how it all, how it all came to be.
[00:04:03] Lori Mihalich-Levin: Yeah. Starting my own company came completely from sheer desperation. Um, I had just had my second baby. I went back to work after a, you know, standard, I don't wanna say standard. I had a generous by American standards, American, uh, parental leave of like four months, which Generous by global standards.
[00:04:24] No, I don't think so. Anyway, so I had two babies. One who was two years old and one who was, you know, around zero. And I definitely struggled with postpartum anxiety, potentially postpartum depression, but no one diagnosed me. I was just sitting on the. Kitchen floor crying a lot and was very, very overwhelmed.
[00:04:45] And I, at one point took an online course that was four weeks long and I was like, looking for resources everywhere. Like I, I could find all the things about how to massage my baby and how to puree baby food and how to pump milk and all that stuff. But what about me, like what about the personal and professional identity crisis?
[00:05:02] I was going through transitioning from working person to working mother, and I found nothing. But I did find, um, an online course called The Abundant Mama Project. It was a four week online cohort based community of moms from literally all over the world. There were a hundred of them in the cohort, and it was all focused on trying to find the abundance in life instead of just the overwhelm.
[00:05:23] And I really credit that community and that course for lifting me out of a really super dark place that I was in after I had my second kid. And. Shortly thereafter, I was, you know, washing bottles and pump parts with my husband and I said to him, Hey, somebody really should create this community. But specifically for that transition back to work after parental leave, because like mom, after mom would come into my office, close the door, burst into tears, say, why is this so hard?
[00:05:51] Why is no one talking about the transition? Why does everybody believe that I am the same person who left this office a couple months ago? And my dear husband, who is not a risk averse lawyer, but is an MBA who has uh, entrepreneurial instincts said to me, well, what are you gonna do about this, this need in the market?
[00:06:08] And I was like, I don't know. I'm barely sleeping. I'm like nursing a baby and I've got a 2-year-old and I like, of course I should. Should do something about it. But I, but I was really angry. I was really fired up. I was like, I, I thought to myself, nobody has created something because once you leave this period of disaster, then you wanna put it behind you and you don't really wanna think about it again.
[00:06:26] It reminds me of law school, which two years of law school was enough, and for like 99% of people I talked to, like law school really should only be two years. So I feel like this whole area of support got neglected for a while. So I started blogging. I got really fired up. I. I was carving out like 20 minutes a day to work on putting together a curriculum for a return to work course.
[00:06:50] I had some work travel, so I had like, you know, five uninterrupted hours of a cross country flight with no child, where I was like, I'm gonna work on this course. And after about four months of putting it together, we brought in, um, I don't know, like 15 moms who I knew who had kids around the same ages as mine.
[00:07:07] And I did a brunch for them at my house. And we like brainstormed ideas about brand and name and what it could look like and what you know, who it should support. My husband is a big, uh, fan of making sure you like to your customers. The course launched in January of 20. 15, and I've been at this for 11 years now.
[00:07:26] Yeah.
[00:07:27] Jennifer Ramsey: Can you talk to us a little bit about the, what the curriculum is? I, I'd love to hear like what, like how long is it and what do people go through and what are the tools and the tips that they walk away with? And, and this is not just for law firms? Correct.
[00:07:42] Lori Mihalich-Levin: And not even
[00:07:43] Jennifer Ramsey: anybody.
[00:07:43] Lori Mihalich-Levin: Okay. I mean, there are.
[00:07:44] 115 employers that offer it as a parental leave benefit right now. And about six 60% of those are law firms, but most of those law firms now make it available to everyone, not just the lawyers. Start it off. You. You know how law firms can be
[00:07:58] Megan Senese: only the lawyers, babies are important, right?
[00:08:03] Lori Mihalich-Levin: Oh, I have a whole soapbox.
[00:08:04] We could go on about that, but I'll, I'll pause that commentary for a moment. The other 40% are all other industries and sectors, so. But happy to talk about the curriculum. So the, the a number one most important thing about this program is that you are in a cohort with other people who are returning around the same time.
[00:08:20] You are from all different industries and sectors and you know, so there's like a cross pollination of ideas, but there's also a, oh, it's not just me, it's not just my industry. It's like, oh, it, this is a thing. Um, so four weeks, four themes. The first week is a mindful mindset for return. This is like how to get your head.
[00:08:37] In a better place and not be spiraling. The second week is all the logistics of return. This is like all the practical, tactical stuff of what's your schedule gonna look like? How am I gonna navigate that childcare transition and who am I gonna choose to care for my child? Um, how am I gonna nourish my baby whether I'm pumping or not?
[00:08:55] How am I gonna feed myself at night? You know, so that those logistical aspects. Week three is leadership in the space of return. I am a huge believer that parenthood is an amazing, amazing training ground for gaining the leadership skills or the workplace that people often pay and companies often pay tons and tons of money for.
[00:09:19] And I don't think we talk about that enough. And so this week is about making sure people are talking about all the work and preparation and behind the scenes. Invisible labor they did to go out on leave and make their return go smoothly. The fourth week is about building and staying in community with other people so that you do not isolate yourself alone on the kitchen floor, crying like I did for way too long.
[00:09:43] So each of the, each of the weeks there are five lessons. And so it's asynchronous intentionally because new parents have a really hard time being somewhere at any given time of day or night. So essentially you, uh, read the lesson, it's like the length of a blog post, and then there's a discussion board and people are writing back and forth to each other in the discussion board, um, which is moderated by a certified coach.
[00:10:05] Who is, you know, like weighing in. And then we do host, uh, a couple of live Zoom calls just so people can get some like ongoing coaching and meet each other and be more personal about it. Yeah. So. I mean, that's the curriculum. And we've got an alumni community too that has tons of people in it. Yeah,
[00:10:22] Jennifer Ramsey: I was gonna say, I would think people's paths would cross and you connect with someone and then they can go on to be lifelong friends.
[00:10:29] Lori Mihalich-Levin: Absolutely, yes. Well, we have a monthly call for our alumni that's free. Just a monthly one hour coaching call that people join in Washington dc We go on quarterly walks with our alumni. Yeah. And then we host in-person retreats approximately once, maybe twice a year. We're having one in two weeks coming up in March.
[00:10:45] And some of the people. Who are at that retreat have been coming to the retreats for years. Like, I think this is my ninth one that I'm running. Oh my gosh. So it's just, yes, this lifelong community.
[00:10:53] Megan Senese: I love that so much. And so the, the four weeks is intended, are most people doing it while they're still on leave?
[00:11:00] Lori Mihalich-Levin: That is a great question. Yeah. So first I should back up and say we have a mom cohort and a dad cohort. I have a lot of thoughts and feelings about separating the two, and right now I think the world is in a place where they still do need to be separated because the concerns of people who are female presenting in the world are different often than male presenting.
[00:11:20] About 60% of the people do it while they're on leave. That's actually the time that we recommend people do the program because. The realities of baby have set in. Sometimes we'll have a pregnant person or an expectant parent, and that's cool and it's not quite real yet. The stress of going back and like the anxiety about going back starts to spike, you know, about halfway through leave, if not earlier.
[00:11:42] And then, um, the third thing is you have a little bit more time to sort of like dig into the, the material and read the lessons and write back and forth to the people in your cohort that said, like 40% of the people. Take it sometime within like the first six to 12 months after they come back. And those were often people who were like, oh, I thought I had this.
[00:12:01] And then I went back and was like, oh, actually I could use some more support. Or they like realized that they don't have that working parent community that they were hoping they would have. Like maybe they had a community while they were on leave. And then suddenly there isn't anyone left. So half are first time around parents and the other half are second, third, fourth kiddo.
[00:12:21] Some of whom were like, yeah, my last leave and return sucked and I really
[00:12:24] Megan Senese: Right.
[00:12:25] Lori Mihalich-Levin: Really need some to do it differently this time and Yeah.
[00:12:28] Megan Senese: Yeah. I was gonna, I was gonna ask that 'cause I think I remember dropping off my daughter. For the daycare. I had two weeks, I called it the ramp up weeks before I had to go back, and I dropped her off for like 30 minutes.
[00:12:41] Mm-hmm. That was the first time I had left her. And I was like, okay, I'm gonna drop her off and I'm gonna go to the store and then I'm gonna come right back. And the daycare was like, okay, like we don't care, like you're here all day. And I was like, okay, I just be right back. And, you know, it was the like, this like feeling and then mm-hmm.
[00:12:56] Sometimes I feel bad for my son. 'cause the second time I was like, all right, bye. And I just like dropped him off.
[00:13:01] Lori Mihalich-Levin: Yeah.
[00:13:02] Megan Senese: Didn't care. And both and both firms, uh uh, luckily they had expanded their policy. I'm being an asshole now because when I first joined one of the firms, it was lawyers got more leave than staff.
[00:13:17] Because that's
[00:13:18] Lori Mihalich-Levin: not uncommon,
[00:13:19] Megan Senese: right? And, and then they changed their policy and actually the HR person said, because we actually believe all, all babies are equal. And I was like, oh, that's really nice. So generous of you. Um, but anyway, I, I wound up getting about four. About five months on both, on both leaves, which is a long time, and they were paid one.
[00:13:38] The first leave I had to bank every single vacation day, but I didn't take any vacation for an entire year basically to be able to pay myself during, during that leave. My doctor was amazing. He wrote me extra time due the way my delivery was and all of the things. But I mean, I just think about so many people who don't have the paid leave and, and then you're on top of now you have to come back.
[00:14:04] And I, I feel like I was fortunate that I had five months, right?
[00:14:08] Lori Mihalich-Levin: Absolutely. I had one week of paid leave for each child, and yeah, I did like, I saved for parental leave for the second kid, and then I had like completely bankrupt, bankrupted myself of all vacation and sick days because as you know, kids get sick.
[00:14:24] So like I had nothing left and wound up having to. Fund it myself, essentially. And yeah,
[00:14:30] Megan Senese: the adjustment is so hard. And so the reason that we offer, so we offer four free business development sessions for any lawyer. I love
[00:14:38] Lori Mihalich-Levin: that. Yeah.
[00:14:38] Megan Senese: Returning from their leave. And that's anytime I find other companies that are similarly like aligned in that thinking, that's why I'm like, oh, I need to talk to them.
[00:14:47] Right. And And so much of that became, I can't imagine what it must have been like for a lawyer who's now basically right around that partner track. Time they, you maybe they waited and now they're having their first child, their second child, whatever, and then they come right back to work and they're expected to bring in revenue to and make up for the last five months that they were out.
[00:15:08] And that's a lot of pressure. And I just had normal, like returning to work pressure, I didn't have extra revenue pressure put on me. And so that's really where our, our offering came, came to be and to show that we are, you know, different, I think than every other consultancy that's out there. It's the same package as what our paid package is.
[00:15:30] It's the same coaching. Like, we're just like literally giving it, giving it away. Um, and so anytime I, you know, I see other companies like that. I love to, I love to chat with them about, about how they're doing it.
[00:15:41] Lori Mihalich-Levin: Yeah. I love that so much. And, and I mean like, on behalf of new parents everywhere. Thank you for that.
[00:15:47] Um, it's really, you know, helping lift all boats. Um, I mean. Equality in the workplace and women. Yes. Yes. It, it really matters.
[00:15:54] Megan Senese: Well, and, and so I loved hearing that there's the moms and the dads. 'cause when I, when we launched the program, I feel like I, I'm so like pro mom. So I didn't really think about the dads to be honest.
[00:16:09] It just didn't, like, not that it, I was leaving them out, but I, we have an even split, our package is called corduroy between moms and dads mom, lawyers and dad, lawyers who are ticking us up on that package. And so talk to us about like the moms and the dads that are coming. Is it, is it pretty even and who, how does that work?
[00:16:29] Lori Mihalich-Levin: Yeah, so when I launched the company initially it was, I was very focused on that leaky women's leadership pipeline and my own experience, and so I did launch it only for moms initially. And then, um, I very quickly realized that the, the business model for mindful return was not B2C, but rather was B2B two C, meaning like that an employer could send someone as an employee benefit or a learning and development offering.
[00:16:55] So I started talking to employers and to their credit, they said to me, what about the dads? Because I can't, I don't wanna get into legal trouble. They would tell me offering something that is only to some parents and not to all. And I said, you have a fantastic point there. And Ps I really do want to contribute toward de gendering conversations around parental leave because we know that when they're degender there's less, uh, discrimination against women who are taking leave because it's not presumed that only the mom will take the leave.
[00:17:23] Right. And so I found this amazing guy named Jeremy Smith, who, um, had taken two extended paternity leaves from Bank of America at a time when it wasn't cool to take paternity leave at all from Bank of America. And he had started this blog, it doesn't exist anymore, but he had started a blog called Paternity Leave Pioneer.
[00:17:42] And I was like, you, I need you. And so I reached out to him and said, Hey. Uh, I wanna partner up on creating a course that's essentially the ver like a, a guy version of what I had created and he was super excited about it and we met and um, he and I co-developed that course and brought in like data experts to be the experts in places where we had the mom experts.
[00:18:05] And we also built a whole set of modules around talking about going on parental leave and doing that planning process that like, obviously the mom's like, Hey, I'm going out. It's not the same for the dad, right? So, um, that it was really the employer, um, push that motivated me to, to build the dad course.
[00:18:22] To your question of whether it's equal, I really wish it were equal, Megan, but I'd be lying. It's probably about four times as many moms as dads at this point, maybe five times in like cohort size comparisons. And I'll note that now every dad cohort has critical mass, which it did not use to it. It used to be like one or two dads, and now there's always a cohort.
[00:18:44] So I feel like over the years that has gradually been building, once a dad in a law firm or a company takes it and tells his buddies about it, then like the rest of the dads come and, and take it.
[00:18:55] Megan Senese: So some of the, the, the dads that have come through are free offering are like, well, I took two weeks. And that was kind of frowned upon.
[00:19:03] And like, I remember like. My, my husband took a month and when he was like, okay, I'm gonna go back to the, I'm gonna go into the world, he was like, I'll be gone again. We took very small steps. He's like, I'll be gone for 30 minutes. And I remember being like,
[00:19:18] Jennifer Ramsey: I dunno,
[00:19:19] Megan Senese: I dunno if I could do this. And so, you know, and that's like, and everything for me went fine, right?
[00:19:25] Like, I had, I had no health complications. My babies were healthy, and so everything's like generally like normal, but, and so that's the thing too, where I'm like, I can't imagine. People going, you know, for a week or two weeks. And it's so important and to be involved in, in all the things.
[00:19:40] Jennifer Ramsey: I mean, I think when I had my miscarriages, like I literally just didn't stop working at all.
[00:19:48] And I think I told, uh, my HR person who I loved and she felt so sad and she was lovely. And there was one partner at Pillsbury, he was a man and I felt very comfortable speaking to him and he was so. Empathetic and lovely about it. People don't think about what happens to people when this happens. Right.
[00:20:09] And there isn't really a, it is. It is maybe a taboo topic or whatever. I don't the comfortability and people don't wanna talk about it, but I think looking back it would've been helpful. Like, okay, here's a group for people who have miscarriages to come together and be in community. I, I don't know. It's
[00:20:27] Lori Mihalich-Levin: There are,
[00:20:28] Jennifer Ramsey: yeah,
[00:20:28] Lori Mihalich-Levin: there are.
[00:20:29] Absolutely.
[00:20:29] Jennifer Ramsey: Okay. I, I just shoved it down so I didn't look at anything, but it's just kind of interesting to think back, you know, the, seeing how workplaces have become more parentally friendly. Um, and then I, it's, it's hopeful and encouraging and. I hope for people who have been in a situation like mine where it's not always, it's, it's actually more grief, right, than it is depression or postpartum anxiety.
[00:21:00] Like they're all kind of in the same genre of emotion, but grief is just different and you know, how do you, how to like process through that. And in the workplace when you really don't skip a beat at all, like. Just keep working. Like I don't have anything to show for what just happened.
[00:21:22] Megan Senese: Well, and you are also probably keeping it a secret in the beginning too.
[00:21:25] Yeah. Right? That you're not telling people,
[00:21:27] Jennifer Ramsey: right.
[00:21:27] Megan Senese: That you're pregnant. Right. Then there, I think the piece that doesn't get covered is there's also a physicality that happens, right? It's not just you're pregnant and now you're not and everything's fine and you can go back to doing everything right.
[00:21:39] There is healing, right? That has to happen. And then there's, and then there's grief and loss and sadness. And I was looking through LinkedIn 'cause I have seen in the last. Like two weeks, two different mom lawyers who have written publicly about their loss and they were appreciative to the firm. I don't know if they just offered them leave or if it's a firm policy or not.
[00:22:00] I was trying to dig it up. I can't find it now. I mean, I'm sure you would've benefited Jen from. Take two days off so you can heal. Yeah. Three days. I mean, I don't know.
[00:22:09] Jennifer Ramsey: Yeah. Well, and it's not, and I don't want it, it's not our law firm's fault. Like I, you know, they, I I, I'm sure I could have said I need to take two days off and they would've let me, and it, it's, it's just, it's complicated, right?
[00:22:19] It's, there's, there's more complexity to it, but it's just kind of interesting to talk about. And I think at the end of the day, it is encouraging and hopeful to see that, that more and more places of work and employers are. Thinking about stuff like that.
[00:22:35] Lori Mihalich-Levin: It's different when you have to ask for it too. I mean, I'm thinking about policies like there are some law firms that offer automatic ramp back up, right?
[00:22:42] So like first couple weeks you're at 40%. Next couple weeks you're at 60%, whatever the arrangement is and at full pay. But the point is that you don't have to ask for it. It is automatically part of the structure. Like if you had a miscarriage and that were automatically part of the thing, there wouldn't be the stigma around asking for the time.
[00:22:58] Correct. And it'd just be like, we're expecting that you're not gonna be here. I'm so sorry for your losses, Jen. And I also just wanna thank you for like being so real about that on this podcast. This podcast is like. So human as you, you correctly advertise it. We put out a newsletter every Saturday morning called Saturday Secrets, which is for working parents no matter what the age of your kids, um, and for allies of working parents.
[00:23:18] And, um, two of the blog posts, uh, over the past couple of years have directly related to navigating that transition back to work after loss. And so I will send those to you to put in the show notes.
[00:23:29] Jennifer Ramsey: Oh, thank you. Oh, okay. Exhale. Exhale.
[00:23:33] Megan Senese: I'm always so proud of you, Jen. I mean that with like love and not being condescending when you, when you share, you know about your miscarriages.
[00:23:41] 'cause you and I have known each other for a really long time and you and I have only talked about that. Not that it's my news to know, but you and I have only talked about that more recently. Right? It's like that wasn't always something that I knew about you and that leads me to believe that it's obviously private and that's fine, but also.
[00:23:59] Hard for you. Mm-hmm. And so anytime that you do share it, this broad is
[00:24:05] Jennifer Ramsey: scary.
[00:24:05] Megan Senese: It's scary, but I also think it's, I think it's really important because you're, you're, you're able to voice it for people who can't. And, and I think that's a gift.
[00:24:14] Jennifer Ramsey: Oh, that's lovely. Let's talk about mindfulness and yoga. Yoga has really has helped me.
[00:24:21] Um, I was doing yoga much, I don't know, the past 20 years, so it's been a long time, but it, it has really helped me with kind of an anxiety management tool in a way. And I teach yoga too, Lori. I don't, so Oh,
[00:24:33] Lori Mihalich-Levin: very cool.
[00:24:33] Jennifer Ramsey: I, um, a lot of my, my classes are centered on. Really slowing down the breath, particularly the exhale because the, you know, the longer we can accentuate and, and just focus on the exhale, the parasympathetic nervous system slows down and, and, and everything kind of just comes, I think, into, for me, a clear, a clear focus.
[00:24:55] And so, um, and then that leads to mindfulness. And I always like to say to them, um, mindfulness, I, I say this to them, mind over matter. Mindfulness over matter, and then mindfulness matters. I, I tell them that in when we're like in tree pose or ego pose and they look at me like, when the fuck are we gonna get out of this pose?
[00:25:15] Um, and so anyway, I just would love to hear a little bit about the role that mindfulness in yoga plays in your life. Just from like a holistic point of view.
[00:25:25] Lori Mihalich-Levin: I think my, like my initial experience with the yoga was that I took one class once while in law school and said. I don't have time for that. I'm in law school.
[00:25:35] What is going on? So then I didn't revisit it until I was pregnant actually. And word on the street was you could have a better labor and maybe not have to have a C-section if you strengthen your corn and went to prenatal yoga. So I went to prenatal yoga. Um, and then I did mommy and baby yoga, which was so fun.
[00:25:52] And I'm still friends with some of the people that I met in mommy baby yoga, um, afterwards. So that felt really good. Then the yoga studio closed that offered all of that because, you know, the business model for Yoga Studio is super hard. Uh, my kids were, I don't know, I wanna say like three and five, let's call it.
[00:26:08] And my left hip started hurting and I went to the orthopedist and. He, uh, was not very kind and said, oh, it's just middle aged. And I was like, I'm 35, whatever. I was
[00:26:21] Jennifer Ramsey: Yeah, rude. That's rude
[00:26:22] Lori Mihalich-Levin: And yeah, rude and like I, I do actually like him, so I sort of brushed that off and he wrote me a prescription and it said Yoga plus Aleve.
[00:26:33] And he handed it to me and I was like, an orthopedic surgeon just told me to go do yoga. And so I went home and I started practicing yoga every day. Actually, before I did that, I went to my old yoga teacher and said, okay, teach me how to do a yoga routine. Mm-hmm. Like so that I could do it myself when I have kids climbing on me and I don't wanna look at a yoga show.
[00:26:56] Right. So she taught me a whole like sequence of poses and moves and whatever, and I wrote it all down and I've basically been doing that like. Same 20 minute, like with modifications and all the thing, you know, spice it up since that time, so probably like the past decade. Oh wow. Wow. And the only time that I have taken, I, I pretty much do it every morning.
[00:27:15] It's my like center and grounding mindfulness practice. I use Insight Timer as my. Meditation weapon of choice. Um, yeah, I was a little addicted to it for a while and had the whole like streak thing going, but I don't participate in that game anymore.
[00:27:30] Jennifer Ramsey: Yes.
[00:27:30] Lori Mihalich-Levin: Um, but I still do use Insight Timer. I even have some meditations for like nursing moms to get a let down and whatever on insight timer and that sort of thing.
[00:27:39] And I also really, really relied on yoga when both of my kids were going through like their own mental health crises and had to go to residential programs and things like that. So I have a one-on-one yoga teacher now. She used to live in DC now she lives in Colorado. I do a session with her once a month basically.
[00:27:56] And other than that, I do it every day and I went, I did all the PTs so that I could get back to doing yoga. Basically,
[00:28:03] Jennifer Ramsey: breath work is really starting to become, um, uh, I've noticed it more and more yoga studios, including my own, are now starting to offer just a pure play breath work, practice, or court class.
[00:28:17] Um, and I'm. I'm curious about that. Like I breathe through yoga, but I just to isolate, you know, the breathing only and to understand like, how are we breathing? Are we breathing correctly? How can breath affect? You know, the present moment, anxiety, all, all of that stuff. So I love, again, your, your company name, Lori, like mindful return.
[00:28:43] I, there's so many beautiful elements that, you know, like breath work could be incorporated into it or,
[00:28:49] Lori Mihalich-Levin: so our, we do a monthly alumni call. We start every alumni call with a breathing practice. We have these like cohort calls for our new moms. We start each of those with a breathing practice just to get everybody grounded in the room.
[00:29:03] So, yes.
[00:29:04] Megan Senese: You have some like really cool programming that you're doing coming up where you're sending some packages and I'd love for you to, to talk about that and then talk to us about these packages and the sponsorships that you're looking for and what you have kind of ahead.
[00:29:21] Lori Mihalich-Levin: Yeah, so this is a project that I embarked on only because it brings me joy.
[00:29:27] Yeah, it's related, but you know, not directly to my, my business, so. The idea is, and the what's actually happening is that we have curated a box of delightful things that will live inside of a lactation room or suite. And the idea is to give it to your employees for Mother's Day this year. And the things that are inside are first a little library for your lactating moms, which consists of.
[00:30:01] A beautiful coffee table book, um, by photographer and documentary filmmaker Corinne Botts called Milk Factory and she photographed pumping in the aftermath. She doesn't have any people. She's got the pumps in the milk in all different settings all over the country, and stories to narrate that, you know, go with the pictures.
[00:30:22] And she's got photos of, um, a milk pump on a tractor. She's got a milk pump on a grand piano. She's got a milk pump in a women's prison. She's got a milk pump in, you know, legal offices and on the train and in all the places. And she said what people tell her about this book is, oh my gosh, I feel so steamed.
[00:30:43] Like all this stuff that I spend all this time and energy doing this thing and nobody even knows what I'm doing. Um, so that book, A book by Leslie Ford called Repair with Self-Care, which I really, really love and is the thing that I got out of it, was. Learning that women's health spans are shorter than men's health spans, even if our lifespans might be longer.
[00:31:06] So we are healthier for a shorter period of time because we are not taking care of ourselves. So that was really important to me. And then the third book in the bundle is my own book. Back to Work After
[00:31:16] Megan Senese: Baby. Of course. Yes.
[00:31:16] Lori Mihalich-Levin: Yes, exactly. Um, as they should be. Right. And, uh, latitude Legal is providing a beautifully cozy blanket, uh, for the.
[00:31:26] Nursing, pumping moms to cuddle under. And oat Mama is providing, um, lactation snacks and teas and Republic of Tea is providing some calming tea, and ano is providing some, uh, supplies. Like I think you'll get either nipple cream or like the, the pads that you put in there is to keep your milk from leaking all over your shirt.
[00:31:48] So we have this just like delightful box of joy. If you order it by April 20th, then it will be guaranteed to arrive in time for Mother's Day. Um, and then, you know, we are also going on the road. The three of us who are authors are taking our presentation, um, to organizations and doing an author book talk and a screening of Corinne's documentary, which I don't know if you've seen it yet, but it's only 10 minutes.
[00:32:12] You can go find it on the web. It's called Milk Factory, and it is the pumping room at the United States House of Representatives. What the heck is going on in there? And it is fantastic. I just love working with Corin and Leslie, and often in this entrepreneurial world, it can feel solitary, right? Like we don't have colleagues who we necessarily see or talk to every day.
[00:32:33] And for the past two or three months, Leslie Corin and I have been pow wowing a lot, and that's been a really fun, nurturing. Colleague building activity too.
[00:32:42] Megan Senese: Yeah. I love that there's other ways for companies to get involved in something that is Yes. It's, I mean, at the, at the very surface, it's branding invisibility, right?
[00:32:53] To have a company, you know, I, they didn't tell me to say this, but to have a company like Latitude, right, who is legally legal specific. Saying that actually we're gonna put our name and our logo and our weight behind, not just parental leave, but a specific nursing box. Like that's even, it's getting very granular into like, what are we about and how are we showing up?
[00:33:13] I mean, if you wanted to take a marketing page out of the marketing book, that's, that's something that's how can you align your brand to a, to a product, to a company, to, to something that is like aligned to your core values, like that's Chef's kiss, like love that.
[00:33:28] Lori Mihalich-Levin: Exactly. Yeah. And if, if you talk to any new parent who's spent time in any lactation room or had a lactation experience, you don't walk out going, wow, that was amazing.
[00:33:36] It was like a vacation in there, you know? And we want to just bring a little bit, a little bit of comfort and joy, and I'm, I'm grateful to the sponsors for, you know, helping us. Um, latitude is also covering the shipping of the boxes, so it's super generous of them.
[00:33:50] Jennifer Ramsey: Returning to work isn't always joyful, as we've talked about and, and not every leave story is straightforward and I don't keep track of workplaces that might provide leave for supporting parents navigating miscarriage or still birth or fertility struggles or other types of complicated transitions.
[00:34:13] I'd just be curious about your thoughts about. What workplaces could be doing differently or better?
[00:34:21] Lori Mihalich-Levin: Better? Well, there's a, a long list there, but um, I run a group called the Working Parent Group Network, which is for the leaders of working parent caregiver, working parent and caregiver affinity groups and ERGs, employee resource groups all over the country.
[00:34:36] There are about 315 people in the group, and they're all different industry sectors. And a few months ago we had a conversation in our listserv. About this exact topic. And so I can tell you that there are still many organizations that don't have any official policies in place regarding miscarriage and infant loss.
[00:34:55] And the hopeful news is that there are more and more organizations that are adopting even some amount of like a gesture, three days, five days. Um, even that seems, well, yeah, yeah, that's not very generous, but, but better than nothing. And so I feel like we're. Or like moving in the right direction of recognizing that it's also so hard for people who are going through this necessarily to like, want to talk about it or to like raise their hand and say, oh, this happened to me.
[00:35:25] And um, so I think we still have a long way to go in terms of normalizing it, but, uh, baby steps, baby steps.
[00:35:34] Megan Senese: In partnership with Latitude Legal, stage offers four free business development sessions for any lawyer returning from parental leave. We call it corduroy. It's open to any lawyer as we know how challenging it can be to be a working parent in legal, and this is our way of giving back to the community.
[00:35:56] Through business development support. If you're interested in learning more about corduroy for yourself or your team, email us at info@stage.guide to get started. Thank you to Latitude Legal and Kyle Robisch for being the sole partner supporting our corduroy initiative. They recognize the importance of supporting working parents in the legal industry and are generously underwriting this program, so go check them out.
[00:36:23] To learn more, visit latitudelegal.com or just email Kyle directly at KRobisch@latitudelegal.com.