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The stories from the places where people gather.
Dana Kadwell (01:30)
And today we are here with Mark Chapman. Mark is the wedding industry's authority on paid advertising. His deep fascination with paid ads started way back in 2010 when he cracked the code of Google ads for his family's wedding business. After mastering ads for himself, started helping others and fast forward to today, his team successfully manages $30 million per year in paid ads for wedding businesses across the country. When he's not studying advertising data, you can find Mark snowboarding, hiking,
and enjoying everything Mother Nature has to offer at his home in Mammoth Lakes, California. Mark, welcome to the show.
Mark Chapman (02:02)
Thank you so much for having me, glad to be here.
Dana Kadwell (02:04)
Yeah,
I am so excited to have you. We met, I don't know, I guess, right before the first master class, right? Yeah. That's right. Yes, yes, yes. You were recommended as a speaker and you came and spoke and everyone loved you and you came back last year. Yeah. Thanks. We could. We won't. Yeah. Yes.
Mark Chapman (02:10)
How did we meet? Yeah, yeah, yeah. We met through Shannon Tarrant, I think. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, it was such an awesome event. We could go on a whole rabbit trail about how awesome that is. We won't, but we could.
Dana Kadwell (02:29)
Well,
I'm so excited that you are here today and shameless plug. I actually hired Mark for one of my venues recently and that he has been doing. It's been amazing. We've worked. think we only had like literally two leads a week and now we get lots a day. So it's moving in the right direction. Yeah.
Mark Chapman (02:43)
Yeah, yeah, thank you.
We love doing advertising, which is what we're gonna talk about, but we love it, we're fascinated by it. So I'm so, so, so happy that it's helping you as you transition into these new venues. Yeah.
Dana Kadwell (02:49)
Yeah. Yeah.
Me too. Me too, my friend. Um,
but let's get started. Let's talk a little bit about, I mean, obviously you, we, in your bio, you said it's when you cracked the code of Google ads, but really how did you decide that you wanted to do this? Like as like full time and open up your own agency and talk a little bit about that story.
Mark Chapman (03:13)
Yeah, in the early 2000s, I was in my 20s and I was like basically unemployable. Like I just didn't know what I want to do with my life as someone in their early 20s does. And my sister was a wedding photographer and she was like, come work with me. And I'm not sure if that was a good decision for her or not, but we did. And I worked with her for a long time, a good chunk of years and like loved, actually loved being a wedding photographer. I feel like it...
It met so many of my own personal desires and needs. at that time, we were doing the Chamber of Commerce and BNI and all these networking groups. And it was like seven days a week.
Dana Kadwell (03:48)
Mm.
Mark Chapman (03:49)
10 hours a day. And I was like burnt out as like a 20 something year old, which is hard to do because 20 year old, you know, people in their 20s have a lot of energy, but I was just working really, really hard. was like seeing my friends get married and have fun. And I was just like working my butt off. And someone in the chamber of commerce was, she had a printing business and she was like, when I turn my Google ads on, I get new business. And when I turn them off, it stops. And I was like, that's a bunch of baloney. So I was like, that's, that's bullshit. But it stuck with me. And I've like a number of more months of burnout. was like, okay,
Dana Kadwell (03:56)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mark Chapman (04:19)
I'm gonna figure it out. So I actually spent a bunch of my money figuring out Google Ads. I'll never forget sitting across from this couple in our photography studio that found us from a Google ad and told us that and then booked us and I was like, okay, there's something here.
Dana Kadwell (04:31)
Mm. Yeah.
Mark Chapman (04:34)
I leaned in a little bit harder. Other people that we knew in the wedding industry started asking for help. And then in 2010, I was like, okay, I'm gonna do this like full time because I really was like fascinated by it. And I felt like I was having a bigger impact by like helping these other business owners than doing the wedding photography. So it was a purposeful transition that I never anticipated, but it happened. Yeah.
Dana Kadwell (04:56)
Yeah,
I love that. It's something really interesting, I think, when you go from B to C to B to B, because it's really easy to talk from a wedding vendor standpoint of like, oh, I'm helping somebody on this most special day and you're a part of this family and there's this really easy emotion attached to it. And it's different when you go to B to B where it's because you kind of sometimes it gives this negative connotation of, you're just trying to squeeze the dollars out of a business person. But really,
Mark Chapman (05:03)
Yep.
Yeah.
Dana Kadwell (05:25)
for the sound of it, it's like you just really wanted to help other business owners. So can you talk a little bit about that emotional transition from going from serving clients to serving businesses?
Mark Chapman (05:35)
Yeah, I didn't know what I was doing.
Dana Kadwell (05:37)
Hahaha
Mark Chapman (05:40)
At the time I felt like working with couples was so much easier because I didn't, I wasn't really the owner of the business myself and I didn't know the implications of like how much, how expensive things were. And so I had a lot, I had a lot to learn to figure out my own pricing. I had a lot to learn to figure out how to communicate what I did. But it all worked out because I genuinely like was that person. Like because I was the wedding photographer who was struggling, it was really easy for me to like just share my
story and I think I'll always be so grateful for like the first few people that believed in me and became my like B2B client because they heard my story and they believed in me because of that and I think that's what made it successful was that I was that person.
Dana Kadwell (06:22)
Yeah, yeah,
I love that. I think that is, there is something really special about those people that start on that journey with you. Like I always think back to my first group of speakers from the first masterclass and my first attendees of the masterclass. Like it is such a special place in my heart because I was like, trust me, I'm doing this thing.
Mark Chapman (06:39)
Yeah.
Dana Kadwell (06:44)
come to Durham, North Carolina and like no one knows anything about
Mark Chapman (06:46)
Yeah.
Dana Kadwell (06:47)
it, but there is just something so powerful about those first few people that believed in you and stood by you and just did it. Yeah.
Mark Chapman (06:53)
Yeah,
totally. And makes such a difference and you always love them no matter what. Yeah. Yeah.
Dana Kadwell (06:57)
It does. Yeah, yeah. I know I always call my OGs.
Dana Kadwell (07:09)
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It sounds too good to be true, but I promise you, Relevantful is something that you need to check out. So
a demo, head on over to relevantful.com and tell them that Gathered here sent you.
Dana Kadwell (07:47)
so we're gonna dig into advertising in a minute. So, but I wanna just talk a little bit about entrepreneurship stories, because people love hearing these things as well. Let's talk a little bit about some of your biggest lessons that you have learned when you opened iDoSociety. Like what's one of the biggest things that you learned opening that business?
Mark Chapman (08:05)
Everything lived in my head. Nothing lived in SOPs or systems and processes. And I had no idea what a dork I'd become about systems and processes because I live by them now. 2010 to now, I have an amazing team of 10 people that live all over the world in different places. I think the answer to that question is systems and processes.
It's all about that. When it doesn't live in your head anymore and it's written down and you have a checklist, wow.
Dana Kadwell (08:37)
Yeah, but it also allows you to be a true leader. Like it allows you to be able to delegate better and it really allows you to even take a step back. And even if you're like, I just want to take two weeks off, like you have a system and a process that someone could take over what you're doing well, and know, you're not going to come back to like a total mess.
Mark Chapman (08:54)
Yeah, as long as they just follow the checklist, right? Now getting people that follow a checklist is a whole different conversation. Yeah, exactly. But the checklist is the start. Yeah.
Dana Kadwell (08:57)
Yeah. Yeah.
That's a whole different conversation. That's so true. Yeah, it's a start.
Yeah, yeah, I love that. What about, would you say, this is your last kind of like entrepreneurship question. What would you, yeah, what did you say is like your, we talked about your biggest lesson learned, obviously. What was your biggest failure that you, maybe even now that you think about it, you're just like, like you kind of cringe when you think about it a little bit.
Mark Chapman (09:13)
no, I love them. Go for it.
Hmm,
my biggest failure. I feel like there's got to be so many, right? And like, love, I will talk all day about my failures because it's what made it is what it is. Honestly, I think it's probably pricing, like figuring out how to price my services as a B2B because there wasn't at the time, like anyone doing what I was doing. And I don't know, I walk this line of like, I probably
Dana Kadwell (09:39)
Mm.
Mark Chapman (09:54)
should have made more than I did because it was like five years of owning the I do society before I actually started to save for retirement. And this is probably like a little personal, but like I don't come from any sort of money. My parents were like really amazing people, but they basically had like government jobs. I hope the whole money bet I think was my biggest failure was like, I didn't know what to charge. I didn't know what I was worth. And also
Dana Kadwell (10:08)
Yeah.
Mark Chapman (10:21)
There's an imposter syndrome to this, right? You're like, my god. And I know I was doing good things, but I don't know. I think my biggest failure was not understanding how to value myself and stick up for myself because I have a big heart. I wanted to help as many people as I could and I did so, but it was to my own detriment that I was like 35 years old when I started saving for retirement. And I really wish I could turn back the clock and like kick myself in the ass and say, do good things for people, but value yourself. Yeah.
Dana Kadwell (10:23)
Yeah.
That's so interesting.
Interesting. was actually, um, I don't know if this podcast is going to come out before the one I just record before you, before yours. We talked a lot about gut instincts and empathy and how the empathetic side of us overrides that gut instinct sometimes. Um, and how that can be, it's something beautiful. We love about ourselves. Like we want to help people and care about people. We want to do good things, but then at the same time it could be detrimental to our business. Um, and it's a hard.
Mark Chapman (10:58)
Yeah.
Dana Kadwell (11:17)
line to know like how to stay on either side of it, you know?
Mark Chapman (11:21)
It really is. And how it played out for me was like, sort of got myself together and was like, I'm going to raise my prices. And I made some people mad because they were expecting a certain pricing. And when I changed that, I didn't do it right. Like I didn't give them warning. didn't like, it was a long time ago, but I just didn't do it right. And when I started to like realize I need to like charge a little bit more so I can hire someone, like I really screwed that up too. it was like a big old mess. And to your point.
Dana Kadwell (11:33)
Mm.
sure.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mark Chapman (11:49)
in the wedding industry, think that it attracts people with lots of emotion and lots of heart because the whole world of what we do is so beautiful and wonderful. But that it doesn't always translate into good business practices.
Dana Kadwell (11:54)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Right,
right. Yeah. Oh, well, thanks for sharing a bit of your story. I really want to dive into the meat of what we're here today. And I think with people are listening, obviously they want to hear about you, Mark. But the other part is really the thing that I believe plagues us all is this, I is just advertising in general. is where, where should we be putting our money? The, the never ending algorithms, all of it. So I would love to talk right now, like what, what's working that you're seeing with paid ads.
Mark Chapman (12:32)
Being seen in multiple places multiple times, I think is the foundation of what works with paid advertising. Couples do not. Search on Google, click an ad, sign up for a tour immediately. Some of them do, but if you think about how a couple is looking for a venue, they're using ChatGPT now, they're using Google, they are...
going in that search mode and they're looking at a bunch of different search results and saying, okay, I'm gonna write these venues down, this one looks like for me, this one looks like not for me or whatever. But like, it's reasonable to expect that they're not going to make a really...
significant decision in that moment after they see your ad one time, right? They're not gonna like give you their personal information immediately. They need to see more of you, so they'll read your Google reviews, and then they'll go over to see your Instagram account, and then we can retarget them on Instagram. So the point is, if you are not showing up in multiple places multiple times, you can't expect paid advertising to deliver incredible quality leads to you, because it's just not fair to how couples actually shop for venues.
Dana Kadwell (13:37)
So like if, so a lot of people, and I see this as they'll say like, I'm just pushing, I'm boosting a post on Instagram or boosting a post on Facebook, but they're not doing the Google ads. And maybe it's a financial situation. Maybe it's just because they don't have the dollars. So where, where is, where is your dollar the strongest in those situations?
Mark Chapman (13:57)
Yeah, I love that question because really the truth is it's really hard to tell because of that couple's journey that involves multiple stops along the way.
When we work with venues in our done for you service part at the IDOO Society, we require them to be on Google Ads and one other platform like Meta, which is Facebook and Instagram or TikTok, because we know that that couple isn't going to just see them one time and convert. And so the question of where is your dollar the strongest? Honestly, if I were not able to advertise significantly and spend several hundred dollars, up to $1,000 a month, I would save up that money and I would wait
until I have like three months of that so that I can do it correctly. Because if you just throw $200 a month at Google Ads and you hope for the best, it's not gonna work. And you're gonna be like, Google Ads doesn't work, and you're get mad at Google. But it's actually more that because of the wedding industry and how couples shop, we need to meet them where they're at.
Dana Kadwell (14:54)
Okay, so other questions. Let's say I am, because I obviously have two new venues. My cashflow is tight and I made a decision. One of them, it's a cart for the horse, right? Like I'm not getting enough leads. I'm not getting enough tours. I'm not getting enough booking. So like I'm spending all my money in the marketing, right? But the other one, it's doing okay, but I'm not quite hitting the right client. Like I'm not, trying to elevate the service. I'm trying to get a little bit higher of a price point so I can like squeeze a little bit more out of each.
Mark Chapman (15:16)
Mm-hmm.
Dana Kadwell (15:24)
rental. But again, like money is concerned because I think this is all this is what it always comes back to for venues. It's money, it's dollars. That's really what it comes back to. Is it do you is there a strategy where you're just you saved up those three months and you're running an ad for those three months and then during like the slower booking season, you're you're tapering it off and then you're saving again to hit the next big booking season. Is that like a detrimental like strategy, I guess?
Mark Chapman (15:53)
Yeah, it is. And I have no reason to promote spending money in these ad platforms. Like Google doesn't care about me. Meta doesn't care about me. They don't know that I exist. They don't care. Yeah, exactly. So I promise. But what we've seen from doing this for years and years and years and see an overseeing millions of dollars in ad spend is that couples really are searching like, and they're looking all year long. And yes, there is an engagement season. And yes, there does sometimes tend to be like a spike at certain times of the year. But
Dana Kadwell (15:59)
Yes.
Nice disclaimer, yeah.
Mark Chapman (16:21)
We know for certain that couples are looking for venues even before they're engaged. This is a quick rabbit trail. So we build these landing pages and we ask when someone clicks on an ad and visits one of our venue landing pages, like, hey, where are you in your journey? Like, hey, this venue is for me. I'm not engaged yet. I'm a wedding planner helping a couple. there are probably like maybe 15 to 20 % of people say they're not engaged yet and they're looking for a venue. And so even before they get engaged in Thanksgiving, they're looking.
Dana Kadwell (16:50)
Mm-hmm.
Mark Chapman (16:51)
present all throughout the year is what really makes a measurable difference for your ROI from paid ads and the revenue it generates for your revenue when you're consistently there all year long. Yeah, I know it's not like a great answer that you know.
Dana Kadwell (16:56)
Mm-mm.
Wow. Yeah. That's, that's no, no, that's, that's actually a really
good answer because I think then the question is really about like how to really carve that into your budget appropriately. Like I think, I think that's what gets us a lot of times it's, it's an afterthought of like, wow, bookings are slow. I need to do advertising. And maybe it's in like March or April and you've already made your budget for the year and you're like, well, I can't make this dollar work. So it's like a last minute decision. And then you're not really
Mark Chapman (17:14)
Yeah.
Dana Kadwell (17:31)
you know, putting in the resources that you need into it as well.
Mark Chapman (17:36)
And clarifying why I said three months was because like it doesn't, you know, people are shopping for venues and they're looking online, they're looking at Instagram. They don't always convert to a tour right away. And by the time that tour converts into like paid money, it does take a little bit of time. So that's why I think you should advertise all year long. But I did mention three months as like, you really need some time to start seeing things come to fruition and play out tangibly in real life.
Dana Kadwell (17:56)
Yeah.
Is there a way like to, I know being in advertising, you probably love the numbers, like you love data, like data is what drives all the decisions. And I actually was talking a couple of weeks ago, the episode from a couple of weeks ago with Sarah from Isle Plan, and we talked a lot about those data-driven decisions because again, going back to the fact that being an entrepreneur, being in the industry, there's a lot of those emotional feelings and emotions that we have about things. And
Mark Chapman (18:07)
Absolutely. Yeah.
Dana Kadwell (18:30)
And sometimes it feels like, I keep getting DMs from Instagram, which means my Google ads aren't working, right? As opposed to really digging into the data. What can you give somebody if they're feeling like maybe this online listing platform isn't giving me what I feel like I should get or maybe I'm not getting enough of this? What should they be looking for to see if it's actually converting and working?
Mark Chapman (18:34)
Mm-hmm.
In the advertising platforms, all of them have conversion tracking, which is where you set up a pixel on your website and you can say, hey Google or Meta or TikTok, I wanna know how many leads I'm getting from my campaigns this month. So you can actually see when people, if it's trackable. So if someone clicks on your ad and takes an action at some point.
It's really tempting to go on rabbit trails with this. But, okay, okay, okay, sorry. I don't wanna overwhelm folks, because it can be overwhelming to think. at the high level, there's tracking, where the platforms show you how many leads you get from the campaigns. But in real life, it's tricky, because sometimes people click on a Google ad, they visit your website, but then they clicked on your Instagram ad later on, and they converted after seeing you the second or third or fourth time. So your Google ad played a role in that, but it didn't get any credit, because it wasn't the last click that they converted on.
Dana Kadwell (19:19)
It's okay, you can, it's fine. No, no, it's fine.
Mark Chapman (19:46)
Also, a lot of people have privacy settings set. Some people use Safari on their iPhones, which just really like blocks a lot of the tracking, which I believe privacy is super, super important. I love data and I love numbers, but more important is privacy. So it's not a perfect science, but there are conversion numbers that you can get from these ad campaigns, which is really powerful and amazing. And it helps you understand what's working and what's not working.
Dana Kadwell (20:11)
Yeah, that's super helpful because I didn't realize the iPhone had such privacy on Safari.
Mark Chapman (20:16)
Yeah, their whole thing is like, yeah, Apple was like, we're going to be the most privacy first company, blah, blah, blah. But what's crazy is like, actually, so if anyone's using iPhone and you download a new app, there's that button that says, app not to track, right? And then so you're basically telling Apple, like, I don't want this app to track what I'm doing. Everyone does that. Everyone's like, I don't want to be tracked. But interestingly, this is like super quick side note, Apple does not.
Dana Kadwell (20:33)
yeah.
Mark Chapman (20:45)
give you that option when you're using its own apps. So like there's Safari or there's the calculator or whatever, and it doesn't give you the option not to be tracked on those things. It's like completely hypocritical. So that's my soapbox. We'll move on. Because they want to own the data. Exactly. They're so fishy.
Dana Kadwell (20:57)
Cuz they want the data. Right. Yes, yes. wow.
I know, but they have such a choke hold on the phones, I think, in general. Yeah, I do too. Never go back. I know that I love those memes or those like with the green bubbles, like who put the green bubble in the group chat? Like who's the Android? Yeah.
Mark Chapman (21:09)
yeah. I love my iPhone. Yeah.
Totally. Leaving her out.
Dana Kadwell (21:27)
All right, guys, we all know, that Gen Z has fully entered the wedding market and they are not going anywhere. So here is the reality that we are facing today. Today's couples, they need instant gratification. They need information at their fingertips. They do not want to wait to get the information. They want something that is easy and they need consistent reminders. They are being bombarded by things all over the place.
So a strong sales funnel is more crucial than ever before. And this is where LeadLock Pro comes in. In today's world, that means that we have got to focus on our speed when we are talking to our leads. Text message communication. Yes, I know being a geriatric millennial, this seems counterintuitive, but they love text messages. And nurturing to sell. So right now, if your current lead process relies solely on manual responses, I guarantee you that you are leaving money on the table.
Really what we are trying to do is yes, we want to be fast. Yes, we want to great communications. We are trying to create that deep sense of trust with our clients. So LeadLock Pro, where they are helping venues and wedding pros is they are creating streamlined and career systems with a lead management software designed to track leads, leverage automations and increase your marketing ROI. All where it doesn't just feel like everything is automated and doesn't feel like a robot is replying.
book a demo and to learn more, head to leadlockpro.com. And don't forget to tell them that I sent you.
Dana Kadwell (22:55)
Okay. So I love this conversation so much because I feel like I've been in this as going from a place, a venue that
really was super booked out, right? The wrapper was booked out. We were a high demand. We still, we still had to add, we still ran things and whatnot, but it was a very sparse. A lot of our business came from referrals. And there was this point and our worst year we had was 2024, right? And I think, and I look back on it I look back on what we spent in our marketing and stuff, we had ratcheted back marketing so much because we're like, we're booked out. Like we don't
Mark Chapman (23:32)
Mmm.
Dana Kadwell (23:33)
need the marketing, right? We get so
much because we did track our data. I really get so much from referrals and so on and so forth. And it was really harmful. Like we really struggled that year and we actually ended up booking a lot in 2025 for that same 2025 year. You mentioned a little bit about how this generation and how they're buying and how they're searching. Like I don't want to say referrals are going out the window because that's not the case either.
But how the ads kind of work in tandem with that referral network that we've have spent so much time building.
Mark Chapman (24:05)
Referrals are the best. a person walks in and they're like, hey, I was here for a wedding or so-and-so referred me, I already love you. That is so great. And advertising reaches a cold audience. It's not the same. I'm not going to lie. Converting someone from a paid ad campaign that doesn't know, like, or trust you or hasn't had any warm thoughts or feelings about you yet is really hard. But imagine if you have a good
referral base and there's people who are referring you and saying good things about you. And then that bride or that couple also sees a really helpful Instagram ad that's you educating them about how to book your tour or whatever it is. And then she sees you in multiple places multiple times. She hears good things about you from her friends. It amplifies those referrals so much and you'll probably very rarely hear that. But I say that because we have worked with so many venues for so long that say
exactly what you said but in the reverse where it was like we had good lots of referrals but when we started ad campaigns the referrals and the traffic and the tours got even better because we were just everywhere. We were on their phone all the time, we were in their ear from their friends. It totally works together.
Dana Kadwell (25:13)
Mm.
Mm hmm.
Yeah, I always think about it from a point where the biggest referral network that I always like really leaned on was when we were renovating our house because like having contractors come in and was, you know, I anyone who's renovated a house knows like, that's like gold, a referral, a good referral is like gold. But it was a really interesting, I started noticing this about myself is if someone said I use so on so and so and I love them. And if I had seen
something about that like a week before or that name like jogged memory like, yeah, I saw that I saw them on Instagram or I I just started following them because they came up on my for you page because they I keep you know, saving all these home renovation things or whatever. I was more likely to call that person than someone who still had a great referral for somebody but I hadn't seen them anywhere or their website was website was hard to find or they weren't they didn't have a social media or something. There is something about that kind of double validation that made me say,
Mark Chapman (25:50)
Yeah.
Dana Kadwell (26:14)
Okay, like I should, you know, yes.
Mark Chapman (26:15)
I love that phrase double validation.
Yeah. And there's a subconscious level of trust or when you see a company advertising, think like, well, older people might not think this because people my age and older are like averse to ads. But younger people who have grown up with ads and a phone in their hand, Gen Z and younger millennials, I think that there's a subconscious sense of like, this company is legit because they're paying for ads. And they would never say it verbally like that, but it's like,
Dana Kadwell (26:22)
Yes.
Mark Chapman (26:45)
Huh. You know?
Dana Kadwell (26:47)
yeah, well, think about it. They grew up in influencer culture. See, I look at influencer and I don't trust them. So I'm like, you're getting paid to say that. So how do I know you actually like care? Like my favorite is like, I am not paid to say this. I literally use this product every day. Then I'm like, okay, I'm listening. But if it says ad, I don't trust that at all. But my daughter trusts it. She's like, yeah, I saw it. Yeah, it's wild.
Mark Chapman (26:50)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah,
it's totally wild. It makes me feel so old. And I'm pretty hip and young at heart, like, legit, like ads, you know, like if I weren't, if I didn't do this as a job, I think as a consumer, I would trust nothing. But that's not how couples are today.
Dana Kadwell (27:14)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, no, it's not.
Yeah, So I wanna talk a little bit about new venues, right? Or venues that are kind of maybe in a rehab situation, coming in and really trying to build. And maybe they don't have the dollars, but they know, okay, this year my goal is to really get my socials up, to get my reputation management correct, make sure my numbers are right, my website, all that stuff. What can they do in that world that's...
quote unquote free, right? That to help get them ready so that when they're ready to start doing ads that they're in a really good place.
Mark Chapman (27:50)
Mm-hmm.
I want two things to happen. I want the focus to be on reviews and social proof because no matter where someone finds you, they do want to find social proof of your expertise and your quality and your service level online. Reddit, Google reviews, all those things. The second thing I want is for someone at the venue to be comfortable with short form videos and putting their face on camera. People buy from people.
when people hear your voice and see your face, especially if you're the owner, they have a deeper sense of trust. They're not just buying a product. Because at the end of the day, venues are kind of products. People will forgive a whole lot because they want that particular space that's for them. But to amplify any sort of advertising or messaging or marketing that you do, when you as a human get on camera and you say something and you share a story, wow, that does a whole lot for your business. And I know that people are like, I know getting on camera is like not for everyone. So maybe if you're the owner of a
Dana Kadwell (28:55)
Mm-hmm.
Mark Chapman (28:56)
really isn't for you, like someone key, a key person on your team, just to be there and get those short form videos going.
Dana Kadwell (29:02)
so I, one of my venues, I have like a managing partner that's doing it with me. It's a really good friend of mine. Love him dearly, but he is terrified to give you on camera. He hates the idea of being on camera. And I told him, I was like, but you're so lovable and you're likable and people will buy from you because you're just such a good, good person and they need to see that and know who you are. But he is struggling with that kind of like,
Mark Chapman (29:16)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dana Kadwell (29:27)
it's like a hit the way I sound and so on and so forth and totally not related. I would kind of relate it, but do you have any advice for somebody who maybe who doesn't have that person and you're like, you have to get on camera that like, what's the thing that you tell people to like overcome that fear? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Mark Chapman (29:32)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Nobody cares about you. literally, nobody cares. Nobody effing cares. They're
watching the video and they learn something from you and they're moving on with their day because they have a whole world of things they're worrying about. So get the eff over yourself. Nobody cares. Sorry. Yeah.
Dana Kadwell (29:50)
Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. That's so funny. No, it's so true. It is literally what I
tell my children, like, especially when they're in middle school and like, or my, like, well, my daughter's in the 10th grade now and she is in this phase where she cares so much about the way that she looks, right? Down to like, you know,
Mark Chapman (30:08)
Yeah. Yeah.
Dana Kadwell (30:13)
God blessed that low rise jeans are back in style. And so, and she has all this like normal, what you would consider normal teenage anxiety about the way they look, whatever. And I finally told her one day, was like, Ada, one, has anyone ever said anything cheap about what you're wearing? Like, has anyone ever made a comment? And she's like, no, she said, no, I said, cause they probably don't even notice it because they're so worried about themselves and their own self that they can't even, they can't even think about what somebody else is doing. Truly. It is.
Mark Chapman (30:27)
Yeah.
Yeah, about their own... Yes!
Yeah.
wild, right? Here's
one quick example for people who like don't want to be like face up on camera super close. Some of my favorite venue owners, Joe and Mona, they're out near Austin, Texas, they have a really cool like outdoorsy venue. And they have created videos where like they're sitting in Adirondack chairs and the camera's like kind of far away, but they're answering like common questions that people ask about the venue or like booking a venue or tour or whatever, just sitting in the Adirondack chairs. So they're like at the venue, it's not close up on their face, but you still you still meet Joe and Mona and you hear their voice. And that's
Dana Kadwell (31:07)
Yeah.
Mark Chapman (31:08)
really powerful. So there's maybe like a plan B. The closer you are to the camera though, the more intimate and personal it feels. just a plug for that. But if you hate that, like go put yourself in a chair somewhere in the venue, answer some questions. Yeah.
Dana Kadwell (31:17)
Yeah.
Yeah, that's a great idea. I love that.
I'm going to tell that. I'm going to tell that to Jesse tomorrow and say, yay, go sit on the bench and go answer some questions. Yeah, I know. Bless. I told him, I was like, you're, you're in my circle now. You're in my sphere. So you're like podcast fodder just so you know, like you're ready for it. Yeah. okay.
Mark Chapman (31:26)
Yeah, go sit over there, Jesse. Exactly. I'm sorry, Jesse.
Yeah. Just saying. Yeah.
Dana Kadwell (31:46)
All right, so I would love to hear about kind of like...
one of your biggest successes you've had with a venue specifically, like any like kind of bragging rights that you have that you've worked with that really showcases what you guys can do.
Mark Chapman (32:01)
I think about 10 years ago, there was an awesome couple up in Wisconsin that came to us who were building a venue. They didn't have a venue yet. They had renderings and they had a piece of land and they're like, we want to start running ads. And I was like, I don't know. But we went to work and we figured it out and we booked, we literally booked like site visits. They couldn't even call them tours because there was no venue. We booked site visits.
for couples to come and get the vision of what the venue would be to book their wedding there. We still work with them today, a decade later. Love them to pieces. And it's really cool to see the journey of how like a piece of grass has turned into this incredible venue where they host all sorts of events and advertise for all sorts of events now. And they're doing amazing. And we have such a great relationship because they trusted me and I was straightforward with them. was like, I don't know. But I think I like to share that story, I guess, because it answers so many questions of like all along the way. Venues are all different.
stages
and phases, whether it's rehabbing or changing or remodeling or whatever, and I'm so proud to have been able to help them with that.
Dana Kadwell (33:09)
that. And I think that's like such a really great testament to to anyone that is new to venues or there's so many people we always have a handful at the masterclass that do actually own a venue they're just interested in opening one that it really is never too early to start defining your brand defining who you are and even like letting the world know like hey this is coming this is coming on the pipeline let's you know get to work yeah yeah
Mark Chapman (33:33)
Yeah. If you've got a story, no matter where you're at in that
journey, if you have a good story, make one up if you need to. But most people don't need to make one up. They've got a reason why they're getting into it. So just tell people your story. Yeah.
Dana Kadwell (33:40)
Yeah.
Sure.
Yeah, yeah, great advice.
All right, all right, last question. Your best piece of advice that you could give anybody who is dabbling into this. You can tie it back to ads, you can tie it back to, I know we talked a little bit about like lessons learned and whatnot that you had in your business, but like best piece of advice you can give somebody in this area.
Mark Chapman (34:09)
I'm going to actually go back to the get over yourself. Nobody cares about you. You know, we talked about this a couple of times, but I think it's worth reinforcing that we work in an industry that is so heavily personal. So no matter what you're doing to promote your venue, whether it's ads or organic or just like Instagram posts or videos or whatever, get over yourself, get yourself on camera and tell your story because that is what is going to build relationships that are.
Dana Kadwell (34:11)
Okay.
Mm.
Mark Chapman (34:37)
the bread and butter of the future of your business.
Dana Kadwell (34:39)
Yeah.
Yeah. And I think you said it earlier, like people love a story. And I think it's because it makes you more approachable that people realize there's like this kind of misconception to own a business, whatever you have to be this multimillionaire or whatever. And it's like, no, like I was just a normal person. I didn't have a trust fund. I just had some grit, some tenacity and some crazy bank who believes in me and you know, and that, and people really love that story because they can relate to it in so many ways. Yeah.
Mark Chapman (35:03)
Yeah, yeah, we're
all together. all on the same rock floating out in the universe.
Dana Kadwell (35:07)
That's right. That's right. Yes. Yeah.
Well, thank you so much for your time today. It was so wonderful seeing you. I haven't seen you since January and chatting with you.
Mark Chapman (35:16)
Yeah.
It was such a pleasure. Anytime. Thanks Dana.
Dana Kadwell (35:22)
Thank you so much for joining us for Gathered Here. To learn more about my new properties, be sure to follow us at McAlser Leftwich and at the Graham Mill. If you want to stay in the loop for all things Hustle and Gather, the venue masterclass, or our mastermind group, be sure to follow us on Instagram at Hustle and Gather. And for updates to the podcast and see all the fun things we're going to be doing this year, be sure to follow at Gathered Here Podcast. I'm your host, Dana Cadwell. Join us next time on Gathered Here.