Words of Radiance Part 10 - Brandon Sanderson - Fantasy Book - Progression Fantasy Book

Hey, Adventurers, in this final episode of Season 4 of the Side Quest Podcast, Slava and Jonathan are joined by Spenser, Casey, and JT for a final overview guest episode of Brandon Sanderson's Word of Radiance. Listen in for an exploration of philosophical questions surrounding revolution, the moral dilemmas faced by characters, and the interconnectedness of plotlines. The discussion also touches on controversial moments in character development, the thematic elements of the Knights Radiant, and the broader connections within the Cosmere universe

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Jonathan talks about Deontology: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XAAuBVSpU0

(00:00) Introduction  
(02:48) Character Perspectives and Development  
(05:22) Plot Dynamics and Interconnected Narratives  
(08:24) Critiques and Controversies in Storytelling  
(11:05) Romantic Subplots and Character Interactions  
(13:44) The Impact of Character Deaths and Resurrections  
(17:18) Outmaneuvering Sadeas: A Different Kind of Conflict  
(19:06) Exploring the Magic System and Character Questions  
(22:31) Understanding the Heralds and Their Connections  
(29:02) Thematic Elements of the Knights Radiant  
(34:13) Character Depth and Development in Shallan  
(44:06) Shallan's Naivety and Growth Through Adversity  
(45:04) Shallan's Journey and Character Growth  
(46:50) Character Complaints and Growth  
(49:08) Understanding Taravangian  
(50:46) The Complexity of Taravangian's Morality  
(52:52) The Diagram and Its Implications  
(56:35) Ethics in Conflict: Deontology vs. Utilitarianism  
(01:07:33) Wit: The Enigmatic Character  
(01:15:09) Wit's True Intentions  
(01:15:57) The Nature of Adonalsium  
(01:18:22) Wit and the Quest for Knowledge  
(01:19:42) Wit as a Planeswalker  
(01:22:37) Theories on Wit’s Intentions  
(01:26:01) Desolations and Greater Threats  
(01:32:12) Favorite Moments and Reflections  

Creators and Guests

Host

Jonathan

Host

Slava

Digital Strategist. Co-Host. Aspiring writer of stories.

What is The Side Quest Book Club Podcast?

If you’re a reader looking for something deeper or an indie author working on your book, The Side Quest Book Club is for you. We skip the usual book reviews and ratings. Each episode turns fun side quests into real lessons, so you’ll leave not just entertained, but with a better understanding of why storytelling matters.

Jonathan (00:00.078)
Are you quoting Chinese philosophy to us right now?

No, it's just communism in general. think this because that's the whole workers revolution. That's the oh yeah, well, we'll kill all the bourgeoisie and then we'll have achieved utopia. That is the constant refrain you hear.

I was actually going to say, think we see Kaladin actually wrestle with this question too. Him and Moash, right? When Moash wants to kill Elokar and he's trying to set up this plot to do so and Kaladin, I mean, that's one of the main things that he wrestles with throughout this book. like, well, Elokar is such a bad king. If I remove him, will that make the world a better place?

all the time.

JT (00:37.912)
Yeah.

Spenser (00:46.348)
I'm curious as to your guys' thoughts on on Moash and whether what he's doing is good or necessary for the betterment of Roshar or maybe Alath'kar, maybe more specifically.

I mean, in a utilitarian aspect, he's looking at like, Elokar is not a good king. He's not going to make these good decisions. We need Dalinar in charge. So just get rid of Elokar and there you go. The issue, and it's what Kaladin comes upon that convinces him that he needs to stop Moash from doing this, is that he realized Elokar is Dalinar.

Thank

Little brother. Tien. Oh, yeah.

It's the end.

Slava (01:41.656)
coming to you from the endless library where every book is read and every spoiler discussed. Join us as we dig into the lives of fictional people who cannot defend themselves. This is the SideQuest Podcast.

I started on page 250 and then I read straight on the whole day. Yeah, 430 in the morning is when I stopped reading.

I love your commitment.

That's great. I wanted to finish the book.

He was given at the old college try, as in at the last minute and into the morning.

JT (02:17.59)
That's how I passed all of my classes.

Don't people still do that for work though? No, just me? Alright, cool.

Yeah, you might.

It's not the college drive, it's just life. It's just life. Cool, last comments? Well, well, bluh bluh bluh.

Blah blah.

Spenser (02:35.096)
Try again.

Thank you, Spencer, for the permission.

Why you stand up?

You

Don't take my jokes. They're not funnier when you say them. back adventurers to SideQuest the podcast. Today we are talking about Words of Radiance and we have some favorite members coming back. JT, Casey, Spencer, how you doing? yeah, Slava's here too.

Slava (02:44.216)
back to Differ.

Casey (03:01.984)
always the last one mentioned.

is the bridesmaid never the bride?

something like that. You wish though.

Sure.

Not my bride. I would never marry you. Not if we were the last people on earth. Someone can quote me.

Slava (03:18.36)
Wow.

Well, that's making it into the podcast.

Harsh man, harsh. Can't do them like that.

Let me okay, would you guys marry Slava? He was the last person on earth? Okay, so I'm not the only person

No.

Slava (03:32.352)
It may be because they're straight males though, but that might be.

Slava (03:39.787)
I don't know what you're at

Yeah.

I'm a lizard person, we've talked about this. I've unzipped my skin suit, I've shown you, and I zipped it back up. I'm one of the, what do they call us, the elite? The Illuminati, I'm one of the Illuminati. I can't even remember the name of our collection of people.

You do live in a basement, so, but tracks.

It's a bunker, actually. To prepare for the new world. Anyway.

Spenser (04:02.498)
Heh heh.

Casey (04:06.145)
Right.

We're off to a great start.

We are off to a regular recap episode with the squad is what this is. So a couple of first time readers, Casey, JT, you read the book for the first time. Yep.

It was really good. As a quick summation, if you want a less quick summation, then we can go into that.

JT, do you have a quick summation before Casey goes into it?

JT (04:33.942)
is this like the official summation?

Dealers choice. We're gunnin' We've got on the bus and the bus ain't stoppin'.

And the bus driver is dead.

You

Also a Slava thing, but you know.

JT (04:45.422)
My summation is that it was like the path of kings, but better.

Way. Way of Kings.

the wavekings, sorry.

You're operating on three hours of sleep. It's all right.

That's true.

Jonathan (05:01.868)
Yeah. JT, us, tell us how committed you are to this show for the audience.

I started at page 250 of a thousand page book, Words of Radiance, and that was yesterday. So I stayed up until 430 in the morning to read the whole thing for the show today.

What a guy. If that doesn't speak to dedication, I don't know what does. Yeah, his schedule was busy this week, but he verbally committed that he was gonna come, and he was like, I'm gonna come, I'm gonna be there with the book fully read. And you know what? Impressed. I can't even get here on time, because I'm busy making coffee with my 1930s coffee machine. Classic. Mm-hmm.

A scholar and a gentleman.

Casey (05:44.046)
classic.

Casey. Yes.

Throughout the whole book, we've got several different perspectives. We've got Kaladin, we've got Shaan, we've got Adolin, Gavilar. We actually have Seth as well. Some interesting perspectives, especially during the interludes, which I was not expecting because I actually started reading Edge Dancer after this, that we would be getting full on books from those perspectives. So, Lyft.

Mmm.

is just, I'm not sure if she's my favorite character, but she's definitely a character.

Slava (06:25.528)
Who? Yeah.

Slava, hey sir.

Her mindset is so alien.

because she's 11 and you've never been an 11 year old girl?

No, 13.

Casey (06:36.448)
No, partly that, but there's also partly the fact that from what her fright keeps saying, she's stuck partially in the, what's it called? The, the cognitosphere, the cognitive realm. Thank you. So she has a completely warped sense of reality.

Cognitive realm.

Jonathan (06:57.44)
Mm-hmm. Why do you think she's stuck there?

I'm not sure, but I'm going to have to take a guess and say that it's part of the reason that she got her little void bringer buddy to begin with anyway, to go back to words of radiance. So we've got all the different perspectives and they're all converging on the shattered planes. Shallon taking the trip with Jasnah on the ship to get there. Kaladin already there. The rest of them, including Seth, slowly converging.

And it's just a series of interconnected web plots and subplots impacting the same center point area of the shattered planes at the very end. And I think that's such a cool way to bring all the perspectives together. And now they're all at the same plateau.

All.

Jonathan (07:52.504)
trying to be killed by other high princes.

other high princes. Did we talk about Sidious's death?

So, Sergio?

We we should, yeah.

So ace.

Casey (08:00.542)
be removed him hours like

Was that a surprise?

It wasn't a surprise to me.

I thought it was going to be another row of backstabbing and politics and everything in order for him to finally get outed for the king. then Adil and just goes, uh-oh, no, we're not doing that.

No backstab and just a full frontal throat stab.

Jonathan (08:25.454)
I think it was through his eye. Spencer?

Yes.

Yeah, believe you're right, Jonathan.

Yeah. Teleportato.

Well, that's

Jonathan (08:33.95)
That's a thing that you do for shardbearers, it's very apt way to kill someone.

What was everyone's least favorite part of this book? Or most controversial thing?

that's an interesting question. Well, those are two different questions. Least favorite part and most controversial? All right, we'll run it. Two questions.

When I say least favorite part, I mean any critique of the book in general. And I can give mind here to start off. I thought the ending felt rushed, that there was too much going on. It was too busy to get a good payoff for a lot of the things that were happening.

Yeah, give us an example.

Jonathan (09:17.898)
Interesting. No, those are my words, Casey.

It's your work to overuse.

Jonathan (09:31.852)
Yes, thank you. So the questions were, as a reminder to myself, least favorite part and most controversial part.

think for me on my first read through of this book, my least favorite part was probably the Shalan flashbacks. That's probably because my favorite character was Kaladin. Coming from The Way of Kings where we had all of his flashbacks and POVs, he was the main character of that book. Then you switch to Words of Radiance and now Shalan is the main POV. I know, I just found her character less...

less intriguing, less interesting. Maybe that's controversial because overall I thought the book itself was really good and I loved how everything kind of came together and where they ended on the shattered plains, the ever storm and everything kind of colliding. I thought it was a really well done book. So the Shalon flashbacks I thought were a little more boring, a little less interesting. But on my rereads of this book.

You start to see all of the foreshadowing a little bit more and lot of things start to make more sense if you reread it. You see things a little more clearly, I think. It has become one of my favorite books of the series.

Just a common piece of feedback across the board is Words of Radiance is a large majority of Sanderson fans' favorite Stormlight book, even after reading Wind and Truth.

Casey (11:06.254)
I could see it. My, I would say, least favorite part was honestly what he was trying to do with Shallon and Kaladin stuck together because she started like feeling feelings for him at some point. Please don't bring a love triangle into this between him, Adeline and Shallon because

Yeah, I didn't love that the first read either.

that's going to throw so many folks into the wheel or whatever.

It's funny because I was thinking the same thing in that same set like Tom. come on. It's you don't need to do this. It doesn't it feels forced. What are you doing?

You already have the interesting political speaking between her and Adeline. You don't need to throw in a romantic subplot between Kaladin and her. They don't mesh well, at least character wise in my mind.

Jonathan (11:59.906)
They are certainly a clash of characters. And with them both having radiant powers, they'd probably just end up in a domestic abuse relationship where they'd just fight each other, they'd heal, they'd go back at it.

That's too real.

Sorry. Jonathan's pulling from real life.

Guys, can we talk about my home life for a minute?

she is

Jonathan (12:21.538)
Listen.

King.

Go off, King. Get out of here.

See, I didn't have an answer for the least favorite part because I was like, it's a good book. I like the book all the way through, but I hope it doesn't become a thing. If in the next book there's going to be like a triangle and Adolin and Kaladin and Chalan are going to bat eyes at each other behind curtains or around pillars, that's barf inducing. It's one thing because I mentioned it in a summary of the chapter, the episode that we recovered the chapter, I found it interesting how they...

Bonded in the chasms the way I talked about it It would sound to the audience and I understand why that I thought this would be an okay thing yeah, that's great now Shalana and Kellan getting to know each other wonder what will happen, but as you guys were Posing your critiques. I'm like, yeah, actually that does sound stupid. So I'm gonna steal your answer because I don't have anything else

Jonathan (13:20.086)
The plot of forcing them to be in circumstance together is a good plot.

That's fine.

Great. Agreed.

The, the attempt on Davilar's life that ended up with that, that was fine. Them getting stuck down there because of the both nights radiant in training. That was fine. It's just what they were doing down there and how they're interacting and eventually getting to that point that was.

Yeah, that romantic scene when they were swashbuckling their sword shard blades together.

Jonathan (13:55.767)
Yeah.

You

Cool guys, cool.

Yeah, he has some fan fiction he apparently read.

Or he wrote maybe

Casey (14:04.51)
I don't remember this part.

He wrote yeah, he's like subtly sliding it in yeah pun intended

So let's talk controversial. Dalinar making Kaladin come up to when Amoram, the first time, not when he got his comeuppets. And Amoram's like, I don't know this guy. And then Kaladin has to just live in his anger. That's a controversial thing. like, just stab him. Just forget the rest of the books. Just kill him.

Anyway, they had a sword fight.

JT (14:27.747)
Right.

Jonathan (14:42.402)
Just kill him right here.

I felt the same way.

And that's why you'll never be a Knights Radiant.

Cool, thanks Casey.

Got him.

Casey (14:51.342)
I mean, I would never be a Knights Radiant because controversial thing when he called out Amaram in the arena as a thing of challenge. Trying to reach into the book and throttle them like, Kaladin, you don't understand.

And for my boo.

Slava (15:06.541)
Yep.

They were this close.

He almost had it.

So I think Jasna's return at the very end of the book, that was the thing I found the most controversial. I disliked the idea of this unkillable main character thing. I'm one of the main people, therefore I can't die even when I definitely should be dead and we've spent the whole book thinking that.

Say more.

Jonathan (15:34.158)
Mmm.

I'm not sure what the deal is, so I was willing to push it off because Wit seems to know her, and Wit seems to be one of those weird trickster characters that shows up, gives good advice, leaves, and then you never see him until the next time he needs to show up and give you good advice. He's like the Odin or something. Does not seem human.

Yeah.

It's a lack of commitment. It's Sanderson not committing to killing off a character. He's like, I don't want her here because having her here makes explaining everything so much easier. And I want it to unfold in this convoluted labyrinth of lies and patterns and discoveries and mysteries. But having somebody there to explain it is annoying. So let's get rid of her.

Yas no returning.

JT (16:28.802)
Temporarily. That's what I disliked about it.

Don't worry, he does kill characters. This is just the first book you see a character perceivably die.

Well spoilers, now I know that they're gonna die.

Well, I didn't tell you who.

You don't

Jonathan (16:47.246)
It's saddias.

Jonathan (16:51.267)
Gotcha.

It's funny.

It's funny hearing everybody else say how they pronounce the names that I've been reading in my head for a while. I say Sadaeus. And I say Amarum instead of Amarum.

Yeah, how do you say them?

Sadaq.

Jonathan (17:06.839)
Hmm, interesting.

That's where perks of listening to the audiobooks come in.

canonical reader.

A uniformed lexicon. But Spencer, what was your controversial take on the book? Or moment, a moment of controversy?

My moment of controversy. Let's see. I don't know if I have one. I really enjoyed the book overall.

JT (17:31.073)
commit.

That's right.

Be controversial.

I think, so I loved the revenge kill of Sadius, right? It was so satisfying. But on a plot point standpoint, I feel like it was too easy. All of a sudden now he's gone and takes away any opposition that Dalinar has. And now it almost feels like Dalinar has free reign to just kind of do whatever.

Even though he isn't King, he's basically acting King because we all know how Elokar is. From that standpoint, it almost felt too easy in the following book. Wow, that'll that'll be spoiling.

Jonathan (18:14.158)
Tell us the following book, Spencer.

No, no, can't, can't. Don't do it. But I kept waiting for the fallout of that. And so that was constantly on my mind throughout the read of Oathbringer. But it almost just felt too easy. So controversial standpoint would be Sadia should have been dealt with the proper way. Legally, through a legal...

found in hogtide?

Spenser (18:44.43)
I don't know, lefty code works, but...

They should have outmaneuvered him rather than-

Yeah, exactly. feel like an outmaneuvering of Sadius would have been just as satisfying than just killing him.

I mean, I think that's true. think it would have also been satisfying. the book, you know, book one, book two, there's a fair amount of killing and death and battles. So, you know, I think it's pretty justified. not a very, you know, they're still pretty barbaric as a culture.

They're pretty much like night houses basically stapled together by Gavilar's iron fist before he got assassinated.

Jonathan (19:24.127)
Well, not even just Gavilar, but Gavilar, Sadeus, and Dalinar together because they were conquering the countryside.

It's like the tales of how ancient cities came to be was, yeah, so this chieftain, that chieftain and his allies gathered up, killed the surrounding opposition and then founded a city in this position.

Yeah. Yeah.

That's real life history right there.

What questions did you guys have while you were reading the book? What is unanswered for you? Whether it's about the magic system, the characters, where this is going. That's the question that I want to know. But I want to do a quick detour. I'm not going to call it a side quest because it's not a fun question. It's just a detour in terms of the conversation. Casey, have you read Mistborn? Arrow one? Okay, JT, you finished it.

Casey (20:14.209)
No.

Jonathan (20:18.498)
Slava, you read book one. That's it right now, no book two. Okay, then Casey are you gonna read Mistborn? Before you read Oathbringer?

Yep. No book, too.

Casey (20:26.766)
Probably him. I mean, we're doing the Oath-Burgen one in a while, right? Then yeah.

Yeah.

Okay. Okay, so if you want, can, I don't know how I'll do this, but I listen to it on audiobook and if I can give you access to it, I will. Yeah. I can do that. I barely use, I don't have any Amazon stuff anymore. that was just the last stuff that I, I got rid of everything Amazon. Why? Several reasons, but one is just in general, I don't like monopolies and I feel like that's what they're, they've kind of become.

Send me that.

Jonathan (20:59.608)
Did you get rid of your Google stuff too?

No, but I don't use Google for everything. I've tried to divest from Google a little bit. I use DuckDuckGo as my search engine.

Interesting. What do you use for email?

I do use Google email. I've been thinking about getting rid of it, but I've been using it for so long.

them part of the system. Drag him back down Slava like the Russians bring him back into the fold don't let him leave.

Slava (21:24.6)
Do what now?

Slava (21:29.358)
Don't I only Google?

Have you proton now?

Okay, so highly suggest reading Mistborn. Slava hates it.

I don't hate it. It wasn't horrible, but I just didn't care.

me a while to get into it.

JT (21:41.654)
It's an earlier Sanderson book and you can tell.

There was a few points where my interest was piqued, specifically questions about a betrayal that one of the characters, perceivably, has, and then it's never answered. To my satisfaction. I'm not spoiling anything. There's a betrayal that happens. Or doesn't happen. Doesn't matter.

Like most books.

I was just worried you were gonna spoil stuff.

no, no, no. was saying it obtusely on purpose. So there's a thing that happens before the events of the books are recorded, and that's revealed later on in the book, like chapter 11. And I'm bored up until this time. I'm like, this might be something that will be a good payoff. And then it wasn't. Hashtag I don't care about Mistborn. No, not really. Yeah. He was a fun character to read, but as a whole, the story didn't intrigue me. So.

Jonathan (22:24.098)
He also didn't care about the main character.

JT (22:32.264)
you mean the first main character. Well that's understandable.

He also hates Vin, so.

Well everyone is entitled to their opinions, even if they're wrong, so we'll just take that with a grain of salt, Slava.

now Spencer wants to chime in. Yeah, pretty much. But anyway, JT, this can be a yes or no. You don't have to divulge into it. Have you seen connections between Stormlight and Mistborn?

I'm about controversial opinions.

JT (22:56.866)
Not hugely, there is perhaps a very overarching theme or a pattern forming, but in general, no, I haven't seen too much that's...

Okay, it's all been there. You'll notice it on a reread. Or if after the episode you want, I'm give you two sentences on it. You're aware that the whole Cosmere is connected, right?

Yes, I am aware.

I didn't read Oathbreaker or whatever the one that you guys read before. Warbreaker. Warbreaker. Sorry, I haven't read Warbreaker yet.

book three of strongly

Jonathan (23:31.009)
war breaker

Spenser (23:35.266)
You should read Warbreaker before you get into Oathbringer.

That's true. so you finished Words of Radiance, but one of the relevant things here is the talking sword in Words of Radiance here. That's from Warbreaker.

True.

JT (23:54.802)
the one that's revealed at the very end? Yes. I was wondering about that. Yes. Okay, while you guys were talking about questions. Yes. I have been super confused because there's all sorts of different names of groups and it's starting to confuse me. Because we've got in the ancient past, we've got the epic kingdoms, we've got the heralds, we've got the...

Let's get back to that.

JT (24:24.502)
Radiance, the Knight's Radiant, and we have the Honorblades. And I am really struggling to figure out if there's overlap here or are these totally unconnected groups.

Spencer.

What?

No.

The honor.

Jonathan (24:41.998)
Spencer welcome to sidequest. Thank

Welcome to Psych-Quest everybody.

Yeah, sorry.

The honor blades, the knights radiant, and the heralds. Is there a huge amount of overlap between these groups or is this supposed to be, are they completely unconnected or is there overlap between them?

say everything's connected. You'll start to see more stuff get revealed in each book. Some of those things will start to make a little bit more sense of like where things came from and how they're connected. By the end of book five there will be a lot more stuff will for sure make sense on how all of those things are connected, but I don't want to say too much more without without giving away any spoilers.

JT (25:25.432)
So, understandable. Because I'm looking at it from the first book, we got that sneak peek, we got Dalinar's visions, and then we had the sneak peek of that Herald that returned and said, I'm too late. And also in the past, way in the past, was it the very beginning of the book where they said, we're killing this one thing? And it seemed to indicate to me that there's some sort of loop going on, that maybe the same people are playing this out over and over again. There's some sort of

Repeating cycle, but maybe it's a different person every time and I started wondering that because you had the Herald appear in this book Repeating the same thing. Hey, you're not gonna you don't understand things right now. That seems like a I'm broken from too many returning cycles Mm-hmm, but it's weird because he was the last one the one that they talked about in the first book But it seems kind of sudden

Tall never broke.

because he's weirdly broken in this, but you think that- It seems like all of them are broken. think that it wouldn't, well I haven't seen the rest of them. The rest of them said, well the rest of them gave up and just said, yeah screw this.

all of them.

Jonathan (26:37.378)
you well you don't know that you've seen some of them so spencer correct me if i'm wrong we meet two heralds per book right

I guess I never considered the number of how many we meet in each book.

I think it's two, because we met Ash in Words of Radiance here in one of the interludes if I remember correctly. We just don't know it's her.

Yeah. Right. And that will be revealed later, but I don't know up to this point. I can't remember. We've seen Tal and Ash.

Nail. Jezrean was in the beginning of Way of Kings.

Spenser (27:07.104)
Nail.

yeah, but I don't think he wasn't named, like he didn't go by that name.

I think he said, Jezrian, my friend, da-da-da-da-da, whatever, in like, the prologue. Does anyone have Wave King's handy? Turn behind you, Spencer. Grab the book. Read us the good word from the good book. Honor is dead, but I'll see what I can do.

That is not the way of kings.

the mouth of Jeremy an audiobook of the words of radiance or no

Spenser (27:39.852)
Way of cake. Gotta skip through the first three pro logs here.

the first three prologues. Yeah, it's prologue two, section A, verse three. actually I own a copy of The Way of Kings.

no, wasn't in the prologue. Unless you're talking about the section with Jasna. Is it part one, maybe?

Go get my bar.

It's in one of the prologues of Gavilar's death where we see Jezrian, but I can't remember which one.

Jonathan (28:05.976)
Did you guys find it? I'm back.

wait, which one are you reading? are you saying The Way of Kings? Yeah. Okay, that's why. actually don't have the first book, because I've got Casey's.

The Prelude, The Prelude,

Yes, sorry about that.

Oh, that one. OK, I was thinking. Yeah. OK, so yeah, collecting Jezrean we see 4500 years ago.

Jonathan (28:19.853)
Just

Jonathan (28:25.868)
Yeah, was like, we've seen two of the heralds at the front end. Talon comes back at the end of The Way of Kings.

Technically we saw three then in the way of kings.

Didn't we meet Nail as well in Wave Kings?

Come on. Yeah. He's the

Kallak, Jezrean, Talon at the end, Nael, four. Am I forgetting something? I think, do we not meet Nael in book one?

Spenser (28:41.87)
Yeah.

Casey (28:49.932)
No, we know we, we meet him. He's just not like fully named. think he get a one-off name from one of the, the people working for him, but it's not quite the same name. It's like one of his other many names.

Yeah, that's how you know characters old many names. yeah

You guys mentioned Kolok yet?

Yeah, yeah, he did.

Maybe it's more than two per book, Jonathan, but we meet them on a not a regular basis, intervals. We meet them at intervals throughout the books. I don't, we don't get as many scenes with them as some of the others, but their story, the Heralds in book five is where you really start to see the background of the Heralds come into play. Their origins. Yep. So.

Jonathan (29:34.124)
Yeah, their origins. For those who remain.

Yeah, JT, back to your point about things being confusing, the timeline of how everything takes place from 4500 years ago, where we see in the prologue of the Way of Kings up to the current time, because they reference a lot of things in the past and sometimes they'll reference like the recreants or they have like different names for that. Harietam, but all of those, some of those things I should say are.

Hurry at yam.

Spenser (30:07.554)
different events that take place at different points in history, but you just don't know how far apart some of those things are until later in the books. So yeah, that was for me one of the confusing things up until book five was the timeline from where we see the Heralds. The history? Yeah, where we see the Heralds in the prologue of book one to where they end up in the end of book five. But you will start to see all of that come together.

As well as a bunch more questions, I will say the book five dives further, I guess in the loom that is the Cosmere tapestry. Book five is like a defining piece to really start connecting the books together more more heavily. Tons more questions with no answers, but also connects all the books a lot more, which is fun.

Well, do you love books, audience? Do you love this podcast? Don't forget to subscribe and leave a review so you never miss an episode.

question I had, what do you think each of the themes of the characters are? Because it seems like each of the Knights Radiant has a specific thematic tone to them. For me, Shaolin seemed like truth and lies as the two main themes of her entire character.

Mm-hmm.

Jonathan (31:35.278)
Do you want character or the order that they're a part of? What's the question?

It sounds like order, but you mean character.

So, so her order is truth and lies or something like that?

It's very connected to her order. That's the whole- yeah, I chosen by Pattern, and he's talking about truth and lies all the time. Right. She is a person.

But it feels like even, even before connecting or knowing that she was connected to pattern, she function entirely off of deceit and trickery and all that stuff. So it makes some sense that she would become a lightweaver, but with, you know, revelation of her backstory, looks like she was always a lightweaver. just didn't know it. of those weird things where, you think that

Casey (32:29.548)
Was their selection as a night's radiant is responsible for their character or are they nights radiant because they represent those character traits.

Why are you looking at me? I'm three books in. That's a question for the Cosmerians in the group.

No, no, Casey's only read a certain number of books. He's got these questions.

So you want me to answer them?

Yes, I want you to answer all of Casey's questions.

Casey (32:53.89)
What is this, hard mode?

Yeah, I guess. I think they are chosen by whatever power chooses them to be radiance because of either their gifts or their character or whatnot. That's a pure speculation. I've read two books in this series, Mistborn and Warbreaker, which I'm told by Jonathan and Spencer's are all connected. I haven't found that answer in any of those.

It seems to me that the spren choose people that most fit with the character of the order they represent. Windle, I guess, it's the least sealable in that one chapter that we get with Lyft. In the end, she still cares a lot about that one kid who dies and uses regrowth on him. So I think there is still something there. And very much the glory

Sorry, not Glory, Spren. Honor Spren, Syl, chooses Kaladin multiple times. Says, this is mine, I choose this one. I think it very much follows that you are first the kind of person that the Spren chooses, and then because they've chosen you, you also naturally fall into going further in that direction.

That makes sense to me. I forgot about Edge Dancer, I read that one too.

Jonathan (34:20.181)
And Shadows for Silence in the Forest of Hell. That's all connected to. It's not like a book, but it's part of the Cosmere. And there are answers to things in every story that he writes, which is what makes this universe so intricate, is there's at some point an item, I think it's book five, an item that comes up that's from Shadows for Silence in the Forest of Hell. And it's not explained. We're just like, isn't that the thing?

And it's like, Spencer and I like, yeah, that is the thing. Why is it here? How did it get, what is it doing? Right? We had that conversation, right Spencer? To keep it vague.

about Shadows of Silence.

The item, one of the items that we see.

I'm sure we have, but I'm not recalling that specific item off the top.

Jonathan (35:06.368)
Spencer doesn't just zone out in these these episodes. He also zones out when I talk to him, okay

Yeah.

We'll employ you,

You know how many conversations we've had about the Cosmere? Like a lot. More than four. We've talked frequently about the Cosmere, so I have dozens of conversations to try to recall. So I am sure that we have had that conversation at some point. I just don't remember it right now. But one of the things that I wanted to say about the orders and

We've been to the bar four times, that's what it is.

Spenser (35:44.238)
how they are chosen. And Sanderson has said this, where one of the key elements of being chosen is that the people are broken in a sense, whether that's emotionally, mentally, spiritually, a lot of cracks maybe in their persona or their character, and they are chosen as well. JT, I think you were...

onto something there as far as like parts of their character. You know, we see with Kaladin, honor is a big deal to him. And obviously, Syl is an honor spren, so that's a big deal to her. And she sees that character trait in Kaladin, and that's why she chose him. Obviously, we see Kaladin, he's bedbroken, right? His brother got taken into war.

And so Kaladin went with him and obviously his brother died in war and Kaladin thought it was his fault. So a lot of emotional baggage for Kaladin. And we see that with Shalan too in her POV. And we'll see that going forward with some of the other characters. There's huge amounts of brokenness in all of these characters' pasts. And that contributes quite a bit to how they were, or why they were chosen.

It's.

See it. Yeah.

JT (37:13.076)
Real quick, go back to controversy. Shalon's point of view is the only time where I can stomach Shalon. She was super annoying. Say more. Every time you look at Shalon from a non-Shalon perspective, I hated her. She was so annoying. And I wonder if part of it is that she resembles me because she doesn't take anything seriously. She's always joking and it got aggravating, especially with the time with Kaladin in the chasm. It's like,

OK, be serious for a second woman.

Do you tell that to women often?

You

No, because I'm I am that person in real life and I'm like is that am I angry because I'm seeing myself in This person in a book and I don't like it

Jonathan (38:00.462)
What does it say about Slava? Because he loves Shalan.

She's my girl for the same reasons that you hate her. I find aspects of her in myself and I love her for it

So we have self-hatred and self-loving.

Yes.

Well, I like to call itself loathing on Slava's part.

JT (38:17.71)
Well, maybe it's that as an expert joker, I critique her more because I think she doesn't know when to let a joke go. Subtlety is an art in this and she does not have it.

19 year old from the back waters of Spencer help me out here the back waters of

jacobin

No, she traveled there from Jokovic from, thought that was where Jasno was.

Yakovit

Spenser (38:50.082)
Yeah, Shalan is from Yakovet.

I actually liked Shana Lann a lot in this book. I didn't like her as much in The Way of Kings, but in this book she had a fantastic arc of kind of increasing her gravitas. She earned all the things that I thought she didn't earn in the last book.

Backwaters.

Jonathan (39:10.038)
Why did you not like her in WaveKings?

In Way of Kings, I felt that Sanderson did her a disservice by making her, I think, too competent. Maybe it looks better on a second read, but knowing what we know now from this book. But on the first book, I felt he kept saying that she was, I'm so shy, I'm so incapable of doing things, and then she would continuously do things. I can't do it, but then she'd do it.

It didn't feel like he was being sort of honest in terms of her character. seemed to be, maybe that's a contradiction in her, but it felt weird while reading it to me. In this, it very much felt earns. I don't know what to do, but I'm thrust into a situation where I have no choice other than to do. And I'm starting to like it. And that felt really good.

but she was also serious in those times. Whereas anytime you were looking at her from the outside, totally unserious, seemingly frivolous, very annoying. And to be fair, Kaladin was the opposite, because he's not entirely serious when he's alone from his perspective. But when you see him from Shalan's perspective in the Chasm, he seems like a completely different person because of how brusque he's being.

Casey Spencer, thoughts on Shalon? Four against. Should we kill her? We can kill her if you want to.

Spenser (40:43.594)
No, no, we don't need to kill her.

Just say the word, put the ghost worlds on it.

Yeah, I didn't like Shalon initially on my first read through of the books, but I think on rereads, you'll start to kind of understand a little bit of why she does what she does in the beginning. And when you read book three, you'll definitely start to see more aspects of that. She's not the main POV again, but there's a lot of scenes with her. Obviously you get to see a lot of who she starts to become. I think once you read that, her past...

And what she does in the way of kings will start to make a little bit more sense. So, and I think that's all connected with her, her order of radiant where she's a light weaver. She puts on a show in a sense of she creates the image that she wants you to see. And that not only with her light weaving, but also with her personality and who she is.

She shows you what she wants you to see, but that might not even be the real her. If you go back into a reread after you read book three, I think you'll kind of understand like what she's doing. Like when she goes to meet Yasuna, when she goes to track her down and when she is thrust into the scene where she arrives on the shattered planes and she's in the room with all of the high princes and they're discussing things and she feels so out of

Spenser (42:13.934)
place, but yet she puts on this show even though she's scared or intimidated, but she doesn't let the other people know that she puts on a show in a sense. She puts on a persona. So even though she feels like she doesn't know what she's doing, she's not going to let you know that. That's my view on Shalon.

It felt so much more earned in this because of the shipwreck, the I have to make it to the Shattered Plains alive and I'm a lone woman, but I'm going to use the position that I have with my light eyes in order to succeed here. That felt like a trial by fire moment. And then everything after that very much earned. In the first book on first read, not knowing anything about her

past because you're only given Kaladin's past. You don't see her having the earned... It doesn't seem like something earned when she does something, when she did anything interesting, when she was hiding herself, what have you. You were supposed to look at her like this. I'm struggling with the words to describe how I felt at the time because now having hindsight, it feels...

shifted.

It feels a little different, yeah. But she definitely felt a little off. There was too much, like, man, I'm so shy, I can't do it. And then she would do it. It's okay, I guess you could do it. Why are you complaining?

Spenser (43:47.512)
think it's one of those things too where sometimes you don't know what you're capable of until you're actually thrown into that kind of a situation and then you're forced to make decisions that you normally wouldn't or didn't think you could. Right. I don't know, I feel like I've experienced that myself where I thought, well, I'm not capable of doing this thing and then all of a sudden I'm thrust into that situation and you just have to make decisions or do things and you might not do it perfectly, but you do it and it works out.

So, and I feel like that's in Shalan's case here where she doesn't know what she's doing, but she's been thrust into these situations and she's just forced to make decisions and to try to make her way through.

It was this weird combination of being both cutthroat and naive, I guess. She was like, I'm so naive, but then she'd make some sort of very decisive decision that would work out.

Each of them seem to have some sort of deep skill in one area. Kalanin, because he's got the honor spren, he's built up a deep skill in combat and in character. Shalan, she's got... I'm not sure what exactly, if they've named Pattern as a type of spren yet, but he seems to either be a truth spren or a...

I'm not sure, but her path seems very focused on like social and spy sort of networking. So that might have been like what her order was based on infiltration, sabotage, that sort of thing. And looking back through everything she's done and at the times, you know, seeing her character, could, I could almost see her mentally.

Casey (45:37.74)
Going through and doing these things. And whereas you said, you know, she doesn't seem to have earned this. like, thing she's doing aren't. Martially dangerous, but they're extremely socially dangerous because if she didn't manage to get in with Josna, then her house would probably collapse and they get taken in by whatever organization was going that her father was involved with. So even though.

You know, the situation wasn't immediately deadly to her in each of those times, just like what Spencer said about, know, getting thrust into a situation and what you said about her, you know, getting thrust into situations in the second book. In the first book, the situation was similarly socially dangerous, just not physically immediately socially dangerous because if she failed, she'd be stuck there with not really any way back and her house in danger.

So there is still pressure on her at every point of the story. It's just not a pressure that's easily seen. sort of see her give her, cut her more slack on that front because she is do or dying it most of the time.

Shalava, what do you think about Shalana? I you said earlier that she was like your favorite character. So I'm just curious to see like what your perspective is on her in this book.

I think I'm agreeing with Casey, as I was listening to y'all discuss her. Her naivety is because she's been, you know, stuck in a house with a crazy father who is secluding her, excluding her from, from a lot. Internally, she's hiding, right? She has terrible childhood, is forced to disguise herself. And then when she is...

Slava (47:32.842)
Not disguised, she is forced to do these things that Casey said are do or die. So she's constantly in this cycle of she's hiding, then she's out in the world for lack of better term. All of a sudden something turns on in her brain and she does what she needs to do. She goes to see Jasna originally to steal the Fabriel. That all falls apart. She turns on a dime, still convinces Jasna to let her be.

award Then she is on the ship. She sees Yasna get stabbed in the heart She quickly kills everybody in the ship pretty much then she's on on the Beach she does what she has to do with the slave traders Then she's in front of Kaladin on the way to the Shatter Plains. Then she infiltrates the Lethe court then she wins the trust of Yasna's mother and so on and so on then you get to the

The chasm where she's with Kaladin and there's a couple of other herring feats that she completes. So what I love about her and I mentioned that in the previous episodes is her ability to adapt despite being scared on the inside. And of course her, you know, irreverent humor.

What do you think Jonathan?

When I read books, really complaining characters bother me, but because we get Shalon in different instances and she doesn't just complain, because I absolutely, I've talked about this in previous episodes. I don't think you guys are here for all of them. If a character just complains the whole time, I'm going to burn the book. I'm going to buy all the copies of the book. I'm going to burn them. That's just what I'm going to do. There is a book series that is supposedly very, very good called The Wandering Inn, but the first...

Jonathan (49:21.538)
book is the character whining and I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do for 40 something chapters and I just couldn't I was like, yeah, I'm not going to read this. Well, recently the author rewrote the first book because that's actually like the worst book and other people have complained about it and re-released the first in sort of a canon style replacement, which is interesting. So anyway, all that said, Shalon was not that complaining, but I feel like she was on the line, but because she overcame

things and we see growth. was like, oh, okay, this is bearable. And then upon read throughs, rereads and learning more about her history, it's like, okay, there's a little bit of compassion, you know, for her because she's a murderer and there's a little bit of compassion because we see how she grows. But the fact that she grows makes the journey worth it. The problem with these other characters is they never grow. Like Divergent, the Hunger Games follow-up.

I read all three of those books and I wanted to gouge my eyes out because it was so terrible being in this girl's head. She's like, I don't know if I can do this. I don't know. And she sits there for like two chapters. Every third chapter, it felt like complaining about what she doesn't think she can do. But then the weight of the world is on her shoulders and it's like, yeah, well you picked the wrong woman. So just put her out back, give her the old yeller and then like pick a new character. Cause it's not, this is not great.

Slava's just over here grinning.

I'm all for wanton murder

Jonathan (50:53.986)
Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, I really like Shalon, upon more read-throughs. However, first read-through, I was like skeptical, but the thing is she wasn't as bad as these other books that I've read. And so I was like, well, okay. And I got the payoffs of like seeing her grow. And then it's like, all right, that, that made my, my internal fist shaking simmer, if you will.

She was alright in the first book. To me, she felt kind of like seeing a toddler who's crying and you know they're not actually upset. They're just looking for what they can get out of you. That's what it felt like. you're not actually in distress here. You're just, it felt like that. It's like, I can't do it. And then she would do it.

that mode of response has become natural to her, right? It's not that she's looking for attention, but she doesn't know anything else. And last time this worked. So there might be an element of that.

Knowing that, so after having read this book where you see all of her background, reading the first book is probably very different. But being presented with what you know of her in that book, which is basically nothing.

Yeah, she barely knows herself. doesn't know who she

Jonathan (52:07.074)
She doesn't know herself.

Yeah, and she's caused herself to forget herself even.

lied to everyone else and herself about herself. She sits upon a throne of lies.

Brilliant.

There it is.

Slava (52:21.422)
There's one note that I found from a summary that says, changes the reality she operates in to survive. Becoming the shell on who can travel fast distances to save her family and the world. She must craft this identity by changing the reality of her past, editing what influences her. And that's based on a summary of Words of Radiance. I think it's a cumulative summary, meaning the stuff that came before.

Here's a question, what do you guys think of Terevanjian?

Interesting character.

Yeah, he's a cool, crazy guy.

I wouldn't know about that.

Jonathan (52:51.539)
Cool crazy guy.

Well, he does torture people and do unwarranted and unethical things. But as a character, we're going to say, you know, he's cool not in the sense that he himself is a cool dude, but he is written in a way that you're like, wow, what is this guy all up to? You want to know more. So maybe cool is the wrong word, but he's a crazy old guy that you want to learn more about whatever the word is for that.

ethical.

Jonathan (53:19.342)
What about you Casey? Posting the question. Like him? Hate him? He feels. Don't trust him?

say like the final antagonist almost. Honestly speaking, because of the diagram, he is responsible for all the king killings across the world due to the white, the assassin and white. He is the one who has started to incite mass rebellions and mass chaos across it all for his own benefit. And he doesn't even know

Why is that?

Spenser (53:34.862)
responsible.

Casey (53:53.708)
What his own benefit is because he was quote, genius, the time he wrote the diagram, but he has not reached that height. And for what one chapter that's from his perspective focuses on, he is inhumanly immoral when he is a genius. He does not care about human life when he is that high. So the diagram feels to me like the plan of an evil genius.

Trying to take over the world and then passing it off to a minion who doesn't quite understand it.

Wait, so you said he feels like the main bad guy, but you said something else. You said he doesn't know what he wants. How did you say? He doesn't.

doesn't know the depths of his own plan.

What clues do you have to justify that statement?

Casey (54:49.666)
They had to do a whole lot of interpreting of the diagram itself the day after he did it because he couldn't remember what everything meant in there.

that's what mean. Okay, got it. Got it, got it.

It feels like he is a mastermind who, or a master of puppets, puppeting himself.

So you said also that he's doing this for himself, but that's not the context clues that were given. We're told that he's doing this to save Carbronth, because they're his people. Which is putting his people above the rest of the world of Roshar.

We're told that,

Casey (55:24.472)
But we're also told that when he's a genius, he makes declarations like, okay, everyone who is below a certain IQ, kill yourself. It'll make the rest of the world so much better. And does it completely seriously. And so I look at the diagram and say, okay, this is going to be terrible for literally everyone but him in his own messed up insane genius mind. There's no way that the fulfillment of the diagram will result in. Carr Bromf success.

Probably field art school.

Casey (55:53.472)
It's just going to be some evil scheme that's his success.

So on that note, Spencer, I have a question first before I say this.

What's the deal with shattered planes food?

think about width.

Let's get there in a second. just need to clarify if I'm off on this. Because once you start, here's the thing, once you start reading the books and then you start doing rereads, you're like, oh yeah, that happens in book two. And then you're like, Earth three? Two? Three? Four? You just kind of start losing track. Yeah. Does he say this, Spence, in, Because I think he says it a couple of times. I thought he told it to

Spenser (56:31.598)
He does say that. I thought it was T'Kalladin. Maybe it is Dalinar. I don't remember where. Yes, because I think he has a conversation with Dalinar where Whit says he will do what he can for this world, but if he has to let it burn in order to get what he wants, he will do that. Yeah. Whit says that to Dalinar in this book, I believe. Yeah. And that might be the same conversation where he says,

It is words of radiance, right?

JT (56:56.215)
Yeah, he does.

Spenser (57:01.524)
about your question there, Jonathan, but...

So Witt at one point says, never trust anyone who says they can see the future.

That is an annoying thing that I dislike about the pattern, or sorry, what do you call it? The diagram. Is that he's not some sort of god, and yet he's just coming up with all of these different things. What is he mathematically deriving the name of, what was it, Moacath or something like that? Moalak? Moalak. Is that a known name, or did he just magically come up with that?

in his deranged mind.

I don't know if we have an answer to that because it's not a name that comes up in other books from what I can recall.

Casey (57:43.446)
Poirier if you want to answer it or

Spenser (57:51.958)
I believe we do find out what Moaloc is later. I don't remember which book, but it comes up.

was that book 5?

Hmm. Okay. So it's, I guess to answer your question, it is a known name if you have that level of intelligence, we'll say.

So, Taravangian has... ...the old magic and that's where the diagram comes from. And we'll find out more later about where the old magic comes from too.

visited the old measure

JT (58:22.594)
The old magic gave him this flip-flopping intelligence which he used to create the diagram.

Correct.

So the old magic, which I think is just briefly touched on in Words of Radiance, is you get a boon and a curse. And so his boon is this ridiculous intelligence, and his curse is this overwhelming compassion, I think is what it was, something like that, where it's like, that's the flip floppy.

So he's more intelligent or when he's most intelligent, he's completely un-compassionate. And when he's completely compassionate, he has no intelligence.

Put simply, yeah. I mean, I think that that's what we see playing out as well.

Casey (59:00.878)
Right. It makes sense then that when he's in the middle somewhere, that's when he's actually functional as a human being.

I think that's a fair statement. have a favor to ask you. If you like what we're doing, the simplest way to support the show is to hit subscribe. In return, we'll keep leveling up. We'll listen to your feedback and read authors that you suggest. Of course, we'll take side quests all along the way. So anyway, Casey, back to your point about the diagram and being for himself, like with this quote about like never trust anyone who can see the future from wit, Slava was even asking me.

probably like a month ago, Spencer and I, we don't have all the answers about wit in general, because Slava thought we were holding back from him. We're not. Anyway.

there we are.

I was.

Slava (59:49.294)
And you were too.

Keep your secrets, then.

I will.

Wrong book, Casey, wrong book. That's a quote from Lord of the Rings for those who didn't catch it. Yeah, I lost my train of thought.

don't trust people that see the future.

Jonathan (01:00:04.064)
Right, right. How do your thoughts change knowing that Wit, a character that we don't know a whole lot about, we don't know what he wants, we just know he's really, really old and he gets to exactly where he needs to be at the right time? How does it change your thoughts on Taravangian and the diagram and what Taravangian wants?

doesn't change it too much.

Okay.

Hey, question then. Next person. Keep going, Casey.

Okay. It doesn't change it too much, but I would say that given the fact that he is trying to eliminate the night's radiant, simply to the fact that they shift the diagram and make it unreliable says to me that he can't even trust his own diagram in a way now because he failed to assassinate Dalmar. He failed to assassinate the night's radiant. And now his diagram is thrown into question because they are wandering.

Casey (01:00:56.574)
zeros that show up in the diagram and cancel out whatever equations he has in there. So you can't trust his future now because his future is in flux.

So you can't trust the diagram. Wait, say that again. You can't trust the diagram because it features in Flux.

The futures and flux can be changed by the night's radiant. That's why he's trying to eliminate them. It says in like the, some of those four words, the epigraphs or whatever, at the beginning of each chapter, you know, some parts of the diagram get stated. And one of them in particular was, you know, got, we have to eliminate the night's radiant. They cause too much variance in the diagram.

The epigraphs?

Jonathan (01:01:38.382)
I remember that. The epigraphs are also like a letter written from one character to another, from a character that's on one planet to a character that's on another planet.

Mm. Because I the first one, it was a lot of the death rattles. Though she was also responsible for.

Now,

Jonathan (01:01:52.63)
Yes. Yep. Yeah. Did you know death rattles are a real thing in real life?

I mean, know like your body emits sounds or whatever when you're dying.

I was literally just having a conversation the other day with one of my best friends Ryan and he's like going into occupational therapy he was at his uncle's bedside just recently like two three weeks ago something like that and His uncle had a death rattle, but the death rattles from my understanding are actually more like a body Unction like it like a body jerking after they've kind of died rather than like spoken words, but it could also be spoken words. I'm not entirely sure

but I didn't know that they were real thing. Yeah. So JT, about five minutes ago, you asked about wit. Bring us, bring us over there.

Apparently.

JT (01:02:40.962)
So really quickly though on Taravangian, he is Kaladin's functional opposite or thematic opposite, let's say. In that Kaladin represents deontological ethics and Taravangian represents utilitarian ethics. Taravangian, he's completely focused on the outcome being the most important. I am willing to commit any act of any atrocity in order to

Say more.

JT (01:03:10.026)
achieve my, what I would consider to be the best ending, whatever that is. Even from his perspective, he knows he's doing wrong, but he believes it is in the pursuit of what is right. A lot of characters use this in this book. think Amaram also says the same thing. Moshe says the same thing. And it's Kaladin's realization of, can't do this, where you see him choose the other way. So deontological ethics.

is essentially good is good rules, not good is good ends. So following what is right, even if you do not end up in the best situation. I do like the difference that sets out because it's more, morally gray, because you're still getting, there's good on both sides. Each side thinks it's doing what is right. It's not trying to do what is evil, but going about in two incredibly different ways.

Have you watched Code Geass, JT? Okay. So I will send you guys a link. We can drop this in the show notes as well. I had a full conversation about deontology versus, I don't think it was utilitarian. It was deontology versus what's the, what's the contrast in Code Geass?

Yes, I have.

JT (01:04:28.398)
It's the same contrast. It is good and good means.

So anyway, we watched the whole first season, my friend and I, Christopher, and we have a full episode where we discuss deontology. So it's just interesting that you bring it up because not a lot of people get that deep into like picking a story and then going like, okay, let's look at the philosophical choices that the character makes in contrast with the other character. So I'll send it to you guys in the...

in the link here afterward if you're curious about watching it. First off, I have to find it. It's somewhere on a dead YouTube channel rotting away from years ago, but.

Lelouch represents utilitarian ethics in that story versus Suzaku represents deontological ethics.

Yeah, yeah.

Jonathan (01:05:20.174)
It's a fun conversation to get in, but the play out is always difficult, I think, because it's very quick to go like, you know, if one person can taravangian their way through, and then you go, okay, but what if it's your family who's on the receiving end of the negative?

I mean, think that this is the entire principle around the trolley problem, which is if it's already heading towards a track with three people on it and I shift it to a track with one person on it, I've saved two lives, but I have made the choice to kill somebody. Deontologically, that's, you may not be able to stomach that, but utilitarianly they'd say, well, no, yeah, you've saved two lives. It's the same thing with the whole

Batman doesn't kill people. That's a deontological ethics. That's a deontological ethical position, but it becomes more and more ridiculous the more you, the further you take it. He says what? If you murder a murderer, the number of murders in the world stays the same. Kill. Okay. What if you kill two murderers? And now you've decreased the total number of murders by one. And that...

it becomes more and more ridiculous the further you take that. So well, if I kill 30 murderers, if I kill 100 murderers, am I not making the world a better place at this point? Even if I'm doing terrible things?

So now we've stepped into Death Note. Yeah.

JT (01:06:49.642)
Exactly, I was about to bring that up actually. Yeah, that's what Light Yagami's stuff is. That's another utilitarian versus deontological ethic.

almost sounds like the implication here is like a lot of good guys stem in the deontology camp moving forward and then bad guys or others live in the utilitarian where there's some sort of ethereal greater good barring the joker who just wants to see chaos, which is fine too.

Yeah, well think you'll find that in real life as well, that the villains tend to rely too heavily on utilitarian ethics. Not to say that you can entirely rely on one or the other. You need a mixture of both, because you need utilitarian ethics to inform whether your rules are good or not. But everybody who's ever done some kind of atrocity has done so in the name of a utilitarian ethic.

Mmm.

JT (01:07:48.088)
They're willing to commit any action. A lot of people will feel like they have the license to do whatever they want, whatever they think they need to, because their goal is perfection. Their goal is utopia. And so they say, what is worth utopia? And the answer is everything. And so you can commit any atrocity to do that.

Are you quoting Chinese philosophy to us right now?

No, it's just communism in general. think this because that's the whole workers revolution. That's the yeah, well, we'll kill all the bourgeoisie and then we'll have achieved utopia. That is the constant refrain you hear.

was actually going to say, think we see Kaladin actually wrestle with this question too. Him and Moash, right? When Moash wants to kill Elokar and he's trying to set up this plot to do so and Kaladin, I mean, that's one of the main things that he wrestles with throughout this book. like, well, Elokar is such a bad king, if I remove him, will that make the world a better place?

I'm curious as to your guys' thoughts on on Moash and whether what he's doing is good or necessary for the betterment of Roshar or maybe Alath'kar, maybe more specifically.

Casey (01:09:14.702)
I mean, in a utilitarian aspect, he's looking at like Elokar is not a good king. He's not going to make these good decisions. We need Dalinar in charge. So just get rid of Elokar and there you go. The issue, and it's what Kaladin comes upon that convinces him that he needs to stop Moash from doing this, is that he realized Elokar is Dalinar's

little brother again. And if you kill Elkar, that's going to be same spirit breaking thing and you won't have the same Dalinar after.

The TN

yeah.

Spenser (01:09:58.766)
words.

I think that that was an excuse on Kaladin's perspective because to that, that's him going, well, maybe there's less utilitarian sense than I thought, but he already hated the idea of going against his deontological leanings of, like, don't want to be involved with this. I feel dirty. I feel this is wrong, but I see all the benefits. And it was his internal.

I don't think it was an excuse. think it was him putting voice to words on why it felt so terrible for him and realizing, I can't let this go through. You're like saying, you know, this is just an excuse. This is the excuse he came up with for his deontological. He is deontological.

I disagree.

JT (01:10:47.406)
No, he's not lying. He's not lying. I'm not lying. He's not lying. I'm not saying he was lying when he said that.

The way you said it though, was like he was making an excuse.

It was that thing that got him over the hump. Because what you're saying is, he realized that that was his Tien. That's not deontological ethics. That's utilitarian ethics. That's him going, that's, Dalinar will get negatively affected by this, which will result in a worse end. That's still utilitarian.

I think I could see, but maybe I didn't say it well on my end. He was perceiving the, you know, through his own history, Dalinar and what Elikar is to him.

Right? Yeah.

Casey (01:11:33.442)
going with this anymore. It's it's phased out of my mind.

JT, you mentioned wit a few minutes ago. What was your question that you had?

What do you think of characters like Wit in stories? When I say... I don't mean, he's that weird trickster guy that you don't understand his motivations. It's more of a character that seems to be sort of outside the story controlling things in such a way that you're like, well why don't you just solve everything right now dude? Come on.

I

I said, mean Loki?

JT (01:12:12.458)
I can kind of tell you seem to have the power to do that as far as I can tell. You've got this weird all knowingness going on. He sort of seems like a Tom Bombadil, which for those who read it, Tom Bombadil is the character in Lord of the Rings who Tolkien himself has said was his self insert into the story. He could have actually fixed everything, but he didn't because he was interested in seeing how the story played out.

and the moral and ethical and the heroism and all that. It feels like that to me and sometimes those characters I feel like can be very annoying. Yes.

think they're always annoying. When you have someone in power who doesn't care about being in power, but also chooses not to interact, it throws our minds into a quandary of like, then what are you doing here? Right.

Well, I think we see that in referencing the conversation earlier where Dal and I are in wit are chatting and wit is like, I have my own agenda and you know, if I have to see the world burn in order to achieve that, then I will. So we know that wit has some sort of agenda. He's only interested to see how the current things are playing out will play into his own agenda. From my perspective or my own.

thoughts on this. I'm curious to see like what is like I want to know what Wit's agenda is then if if he's not gonna help out or if he's only just kind of monitoring things until they take a turn away from how he wants them to go. You know what what is that then that's you know that was my question and honestly still is my question even even after five books in the series.

Casey (01:13:56.782)
Whit seems like another interesting foil to Taravangian, not from an ethical standpoint, but from a method standpoint. Whit seems to be someone who isn't like forcing things, but he's just like nudging. a little piece of advice there, a little conversation there, and perhaps my plan will come together. Who knows? Whereas Taravangian's like, the diagram must be followed. It must be followed to the letter. Anyone in the diagram?

who is not supposed to be there must be killed.

Well I feel that's because Wit is more in control than Taravangian is. He's got the sort of casual control over events that Taravangian wishes he had.

He also seems to be far older. I think it's stated somewhere that he's far older than he seems, which screams to me that he's been pushing things in the background for a while, trying to get things to work out in his favor. So he just has time to do it. The Taravangian does not.

So on this topic of wit, based on everything you know, be it one book, three book, five books, all the Cosmere, what do think he wants? Spencer and I will go last.

JT (01:15:07.981)
new flute.

Jonathan (01:15:11.672)
Can confirm. Can confirm. Yes, eventually wants it. Can confirm eventually does want a new flute.

You lost my flute. The thing with him is the goals of these like jester style characters are so inscrutable most of the time that you only fully realize it when the curtains pulled back and he says to the audience, ta-da. But it seems to me, given that he's pushing the night's radiant in the right directions, that he wants them to come together for something. Perhaps there's.

some threat that he wants them to deal with that he's gathering, not gathering them, but like pushing them in the right directions in order to confront at the proper time. Or it could be that he wants a distraction or something. And the night's radiant are the biggest distraction that you could possibly do. Just like how you say the Theravangian, the diagram is being messed up by the night's radiant. Maybe they're acting like a smoke screen for him.

Question for the crew, besides Spencer, are you aware that Brandon Sanderson's company is named Dragonsteel? First question, yes or no? Okay, Dragonsteel is the series that Sanderson actually wants to write. Dragonsteel is a series about wit. He won't be writing that until he's written everything else.

Yeah.

JT (01:16:25.057)
No.

Jonathan (01:16:37.474)
Dragonsteel is the prelude to the Cosmere as a whole. Supposedly. Yeah.

Interesting.

He's got this whole thing with powerful forces and gods and what have you in the background. There's just something with Odium. And I think each of these different series are just stages for a larger conflict which is going on.

That's Stormlight books one through five occurs between Mistborn era one and Mistborn era two timeline wise, which is why I went to Slava and was like, Hey, to know what's going on, to have the impact. A quick example, like JT, you didn't know what the talking sword was talking swords, night blood from warbreaker, but you didn't read warbreaker in the suggested order. I don't want to say right order because you can really

Yep.

JT (01:17:11.01)
Okay.

Jonathan (01:17:29.826)
do this in any order you want to. It's just like there is an emotional journey that you could follow that most people do if you read it in the, I'll call it chronological order in quotes, right? Because it's like not necessarily that, but you just won't get the reveals or the connections if you read it in a different order that others have not or that Sanderson didn't write it for. So that's why I told Slava that he should read Mistborn one, because there are...

It's really funny, Spencer and I talk about this in one of our four conversations we've ever had. How really excellent Sanderson is to foreshadowing. He's even said words of Brandon, which is like for those in the audience, words of Brandon is when he's in a Q and A and people ask him questions. Oftentimes it's canon, what he states. He says that the ending of the Stormlight Archives is in between

What's it Spencer, books one and two? Like getting us shared already?

He's foreshadowed the end of the whole series, I think, in books one and two somehow. Something like that.

So all 10 books are in books one and two somewhere. This is, yeah, this is the level of detail that this man puts into his works.

Spenser (01:18:47.756)
He did the same thing with Mistborn where in the beginning of the book he foreshadows... Just yeah, just specifically Era 1. He foreshadows the ending of the series in Book 1. And when you go back and reread it, then you're like, wow, yeah, that's right there.

Arrow one. think you're talking about

Jonathan (01:19:07.81)
He literally just told me, cool. Got it. But the thing is even the Reddit subreddits aren't necessarily in agreement on like, well, I think it's going to be blank. There's still too many variables. Now granted, we're only halfway through the Stormlight archives. It's five books of 10. So there's a lot that could still play out. The other thing is we don't have enough information from other parts of the Cosmere to make better conjectures about what happens with Stormlight. So yeah, anyway.

Back to the question.

Can you repeat the question for us, Jonathan?

Yes, what do you think Wit wants based on your current goal? Readings and then my couple things that I've added.

I'll go next. think he's based on what I read and what I researched. This is my conjecture. He's working actively or directly against odium. He seems to have goals that are aligned with, not aligned with, that's not the right term. His goal seems to have an aspect of reassembling or restoring at a

Casey (01:20:10.126)
parallel.

Slava (01:20:17.376)
at an Alcium. So those two things, I guess, are connected.

Can you tell us what add an LCM is?

Is from another book?

And you tell us Jonathan, how about you just tell us

Spencer.

Spenser (01:20:34.069)
Adenolcium is... So there are 16 shards in the Cosmere. Honor was one of them, Odium was one of them, Cultivation, Ruin Preservation, there's a bunch, right? These shards were all together at one... They were all combined into this one being called Adenolcium at the beginning of the Cosmere.

being.

Spenser (01:20:59.192)
There are references to, and Witt makes references to, Aedonalsium throughout the books where they, 17 individuals came together to kill God, slash Aedonalsium. And 16 of those people ended up taking a shard or one of these 16 fragments.

of the that made up adenylsium.

Yep, and then they all went to their own planets, essentially. Or made their own, in the case of-

or made their own plan.

Spenser (01:21:32.738)
So that is what adonalsium is and that is what wit is referencing. When Slava said he wants to restore adonalsium, that's what adonalsium is.

There are also Dawn Shards, which there's a sub-book in the Stormlight Archives called Dawn Shard, which you can read about, and you'll discover one one hundredth of what a Dawn Shard is, and then you'll have more questions. Welcome to the Cosmere.

Yeah. And so my final point, he also seems to be world hopping and collecting information on different investitures. How that's connected to him working against ODIM in the hopes of restoring at an Alcium. I don't know because what I read leads me to my belief in what his goals are, what I just outlined and the few subreddits, which were so less than helpful. That was unbelievable. They talked more about ramen.

What does Witt want? I think he wants to build a ramen shop. Okay, great. And you know, you're two pages in and people are talking about ramen. That's my contribution to this podcast. Thank you everybody.

Don't go to Reddit for intelligent discussion.

Slava (01:22:40.577)
No, obviously not.

Well that's because there's another book that you should read called Yumi and the Nightmare Painter.

where Wit kinda owns a ramen shop.

Well that makes sense.

There is some sense there then

Slava (01:22:55.168)
Okay. Yeah, so people who have read that book have taken that subreddit the one I went to off the rails Talking about ramen. What kind of noodles do they have and all that?

Isn't that every subreddit ever things go off the rails immediately

It's the internet, yes. So anyway, quick final recap of my theory. My wittism, very good. My wittism. He's collecting information, researching investiture. That investiture, meaning on each planet, has information that he needs to help him restore adenalsia.

Wittism?

Jonathan (01:23:37.602)
Why do you think he wants to restore adenylsium?

I can't even conjecture because we don't have enough about him. I don't have enough about him as a person besides him being a little sardonic and witty and kind of like the foil to everybody. I don't know. I don't know. Maybe restore something from creation past, from Eon's past, restore something that he believes is essential for the world, for the universe.

feels like that lines up if he was there when they killed him and he's trying to restore him feels like an okay conjecture

I think so.

So I didn't realize that he was hopping worlds. That must be something from Mistborn.

Jonathan (01:24:15.5)
No.

Where's... where's Anna now?

He's on the planet where Mistborn takes place

He's on all the planets. You'll see him in every- There's a storyteller.

Not a spoiler.

Slava (01:24:27.512)
You'll find him in most books you read by Brandon Sanderson. So that's just a.

And he has the same description and he'll go by Hoyd or wit.

Okay, that point, I didn't know that, now it reminds me of something else. Do you guys know about Magic the Gathering and all? Yeah. He reminds me of a planeswalker.

Yes, this is all Magic cards.

that's on that. Wow.

Slava (01:24:54.382)
Right next to the Ouija

The Luigi board.

He reminds me of

Mr. Prezuzu.

Jonathan (01:25:05.912)
See what you did, Slaver.

You made Casey cry.

You keep interrupting the point now. I'm starting to lose focus on it What what's his name he's the most famous planeswalker he's the guy that started the brothers the brothers war Not Mithra not Mithra but

Blame Slava.

Jonathan (01:25:26.739)
just Google it, bro. You got the world at your fingertips and you're trying to use your brain. Stop it.

TechGPT is our friend.

am i part of the problem

John, I stopped using the brain a while ago.

Urza. Urza, not the dragon. So Bolas is the dragon.

Jonathan (01:25:43.404)
Yeah, the dragon. Yeah,

Jonathan (01:25:48.718)
Well, I was thinking a Nikolas, but I'm

I'm talking Urza, he's like the original two of the planeswalkers. And he, at a certain point, like stuck on the weather light as like a blind teacher covering up his like, might stone and weak stone eyes so that nobody could tell it was him. And just gave advice through that. He reminds me of that. He's powerful, but he's not really doing much with that power. He's just telling people what to do.

Yeah, yeah,

Jonathan (01:26:19.36)
Mm-hmm, JT you're contemplating. What are you? What are you?

looking at the copper mind right now. no. I'm trying to remember where Hoyt appeared in the Mistborn trilogy.

Spencer.

First book.

Yeah, in the first book he appears...

Jonathan (01:26:36.846)
I think

No, who? Kel. Talking to Kel.

Yeah, he's talking to Kelsier and I believe he appears as a beggar and he's got a very extremely limited role in Mistborn. he basically he just has a cameo. He's basically just a cameo.

You

Jonathan (01:26:58.166)
In Era 2, he's cab driver. then in Warbreaker, he's the storyteller that Ciri calls upon. He doesn't have a name, though. But his description will always be the same.

Carriage driver.

Okay.

Spenser (01:27:13.654)
He goes by Hoyt in Warbreaker.

He made no impact when I saw him in Mistborn because I hadn't read any other Cosmere books yet. Right.

Yeah, like I said, yeah, Mistborn, he's in the first trilogy. He's probably got the least amount of screen time of any book.

Elantris, he's not really around much either. First book, and Sanderson was like, I want to try this thing. And they're like, the publisher.

That's... mmm... yeah, I you're

Spenser (01:27:38.68)
There is a epilogue of wit in Elantris, yeah. Which I think it might have been like a 10th anniversary edition update or something. Or something along those lines, but he added it later after the initial first release.

okay. Fair enough.

Jonathan (01:27:58.286)
Interesting.

Right.

So JT, did you want to talk about what?

I think we've said all that I would care about at this point.

Okay. Spencer, what do you think WIT wants to wrap up? Because we did see, we did say that you and I would go last.

Spenser (01:28:21.6)
I honestly, think Slava hit it pretty good. He wants to restore Adonalsium because he mentions, and this is going off of some knowledge from later books. Yeah, but also I think he talks to, well, even in one of his conversations with Dalinar, which is either in the way of kings or words of radiance, he says, what would it look like if you split a man?

in one of his letters.

Jonathan (01:28:50.354)
yeah.

I'm going to forget, this is going to be a terrible quotation, but basically talking about like, what would it look like if you took a man and split them apart and then try to put them back together or how would you put them back together or something like that? And he's referencing what happened to Adenolcium. Obviously Dalinar doesn't realize that. Dalinar is just super confused in that conversation. Exactly. So I think there is a lot of credence to what Slava said about Witt wanting to restore Adenolcium.

Like everyone who talks to widows.

Spenser (01:29:20.6)
But as far as overall, think Wit is, there's something else out there, great, maybe not greater, but equal to the power that Adonalsium once had. And I think Wit is scared of that. And if he can put Adonalsium back together, there's a fighting chance against this other thing that's out there. Could be. I hadn't.

Do think it's a god beyond?

I hadn't made that connection, but I was specifically thinking of other magics that we see. Ather's in the Cosmere. Yep. Ather's. If you read Tress of the Emerald Sea, you'll see these Ather's, which are non-shardic magic. Yeah. It's, yeah. So there's this, there's other either people or magic entities in the Cosmere that Wit is afraid of. And if he can put Adonalsium back together.

Yeah, not shard investors sure.

Jonathan (01:30:12.846)
and

Spenser (01:30:19.436)
he can fight this thing. Yeah. Yeah. That's my theory at this point. Again, even after book five of Stormlight and all the other Cosmere that I've read, we still don't really. mean, we have an idea kind of what what it wants, but in the grand scheme of things, we're still we're still like kind of in the dark.

Maybe they stand a fighting chance.

Jonathan (01:30:38.05)
say one thing before you jump in Slava is so adenalsium when adenalsium exists there's things before him which we find out later called athers which imply from Sanderson that like adenalsium is not first God he's a God so like there was time and space and investiture and beings before adenalsium which is like very weird anyway

So in my research, I found people echoing what Spencer just said, that there's something

Worse.

then Odium, think if you'll correct me if I'm capturing what you just said, Wit is wanting to restore at an Alcium because if he doesn't, what might come will be, you know, world destructive, be cataclysmic, right? Is that what you were saying? Roughly? Okay. So does that thing, the potential of that thing or whatever that thing is, the worst thing,

Essentially, yeah.

Slava (01:31:40.494)
How does it affect, does it affect, and how, if it does, the desolations that come and the desolation that's coming? Are those connected or are those just separate entities, events just culminating into something grand in this world?

So you're asking, let me rephrase the question that you just asked so that you have like a context of the scope of it. So you're asking about the atom bomb, which is like this greater, bigger thing in the Cosmere compared to an ant.

If NNL seems the ant here, then yes.

Yes. No, desolations aren't ant.

the distillations are in. Okay then yes, that's what I'm-

Jonathan (01:32:23.564)
You're asking about two very different things. They still both happen on the same planet or in the states, Cosmere, but they're just like worlds apart in terms of like, know, yeah, are they related? Sure. But like, is water related to gasoline? Like, I mean, kind of.

both liquid. Exactly. you answered my question then. That makes perfect sense.

Does that make sense?

Yeah, and I think that desolations are caused by...

It's not a perfect analogy Spencer, don't ruin it for me.

Spenser (01:32:52.75)
Fair enough. it is investiture and the gods of Roshar are involved with the Desolations, the gods being Odium and Honor. So there is a little bit of like, a shard is involved with the Desolations, but on the grander scale, this greater entity in the Cosmere is way above that in a sense.

Yeah, all right. That's what I was looking for. That's the clearest answer I've gotten from Jonathan and you ever.

you

So that's good. Okay.

I don't want a clear answer. He's doing the wit answer.

Jonathan (01:33:30.126)
Look, I told this to Slava. I spoiled a bunch of stuff for Slava because he complained to me. I won't. Yeah, he complained to me and so I gave him as many answers and he's like, you're holding back still and I was like, no, Sanderson still hasn't written like 57 books that he plans to write for the Cosmere So we don't know everything because he hasn't written it yet. So like don't get mad at me Don't get mad at me

Don't do that to me.

Casey (01:33:54.796)
It's just fun to speculate.

It is. But here's the thing, I will get mad. I believe you now that you're not withholding anything from me or withholding much more.

I'm not wit-holding anything from you? Yes, yes. Okay.

Yes, But Casey, for your, I guess, edification, the way I read things is so contrary to the way you guys read things. So no, I don't want everything spoiled, every single plot point laid out for me, you know, all the way from book one to book five, even before I started reading the series. But there are some things that when a question comes up and I think to myself, all right, do I want to know this or is this too much of a spoil?

And about seven out of ten times I go like, no, I want to know this because it'll help me enjoy the immediate context and understand the immediate context. And if it's something that maybe somebody who thinks the opposite of me, like you guys are like, no, that's a total spoiler for me. like, okay, sure. I spoil it. And that way when I get to it, I'm like, cool. So the questions that I ask of Jonathan, which frustrated the hell out of him in the beginning, was I'm like, no, I need to know this. I want to know this. And I think he's come around. So he's.

Slava (01:35:02.014)
After I read Misborn, he laid out a bunch of timeline items and a bunch of what you would call spoilers, like events that are gonna happen have happened, but I haven't read about it yet. And I was like, cool. Those make sense. That's good to know. It's the way my brain works.

That's on you, guess, but I prefer to stay baffled just so that it's more impactful when I finally understand.

JT, what are you thinking? You're present, but you're not consciously present. I can see you.

I prefer to stay baffled.

Well, you look like you're currently perusing the diagram in your mind.

JT (01:35:36.28)
Well, not that baffled. It's, I have a hard time giving up extra details like that. I'm going to close it down. I'm going to close it down. I kind of like receiving it as it comes as well, but then I'll dive down a rabbit hole and I have a really hard time putting it down. But I don't like following authors. I don't like, I need to like follow everything this author said, the implications here. I prefer to just receive.

what the books say and interpret it from there.

That's fair, and I think that's a common grievance too with lot of Sander fans where they don't, a lot of the stuff that we found out is through what Jonathan referred to earlier as the words of Brandon where he'll just answer questions from people during like Q &As and stuff. And some of the stuff you can take as canon, like there's a whole website and things where everything's laid out. And so if you aren't that invested in,

following an author, then yeah, you might miss some of that information. And a lot of the stuff that we know is because we've just got super interested in it and wanted to find out everything that there is to know. And so we go to the, the, the Cosmere Wiki page or Brandon's website where he's got a lot of that stuff laid out. So yeah, that's a fair point, you know, where it can be kind of annoying when there's this other information out there that's not necessarily in the books, but you don't get that because you don't follow.

you know, everything that he says. So that's a fair point.

Jonathan (01:37:09.698)
I'd also say that some of stuff we shared today about adenylsium and all that stuff is like, it's so high level. You've got to read all 20, what is it, 26 books, Spencer? Something like that.

Yeah, it's something like that.

This is like the deep one.

You gotta read all 27 books plus the words of Brandon plus be on the subreddit to like even put together the war of like, or the width of what's going on. The depth, thank you. The breadth, width.

depth.

Casey (01:37:37.9)
The girth.

Casey left the room, guys. It's weird. He just got kicked.

How weird is that?

Weird.

It's very strange, there's a happenstance thing. Diagram said to kick him at this time though. Yeah, so it's stuff like that that is fun to contemplate because it is an ever-evolving, or sorry, ever-revealing story at the moment. Hey, it's dangerous to go alone. So don't. You should always side quest with friends. Hit that subscribe button and join the party.

JT (01:37:49.592)
funny

Slava (01:38:15.372)
All right, gents, I think it's time to wind down. been going here for a while. So we'll end this episode with favorite moments and I'll start us off. And one rule for favorite moments. You can't repeat what somebody else has said. They have to pick a second favorite moment if you share something. I think, I don't think, I know my favorite moment in this book was when we get to see Yasna again, cause I was very upset.

when Sanderson decided to kill her off in the beginning of the book. And when she came back in the end and then the epilogue and it's wit in her made it doubly good for me.

My favorite moment was when Jasna died. Right? That's a joke. Not really.

No, please, please say that to your

That's great. So what is your favorite JT?

JT (01:39:12.076)
have to say my favorite moment was when Kaladin jumped into the arena to help Adolin and ended up going to jail for it. The climax followed by the letdown was extremely frustrating, but I love it because it's the setup for a huge payoff later.

Definitely.

Well, since my brother stole mine, I'm going to have to go with his duel with Seth on the plateau. Actually, Seth's entrance to begin with at the plateau is what really sealed it to me. Everyone's like, all right, we're in middle of a war. Who's that guy? no. no, not now. And just everyone in sudden.

despair slash shock as he just starts killing high princes.

Good time. Spence?

Spenser (01:40:08.802)
Well, I think that was just about everyone's favorite moment in the book. JT there with with Kaladin. I think, man, I think Kaladin's decision to, to finally save Elokar from Moash is probably one of my favorite moments. It's not a big flashy scene by any means. Just to see Kaladin wrestle with that decision and finally come to the understanding of, no, I can't let Elokar die. Is that his second ideal?

Jonathan. Yep. I will protect those I hate so long as it is right. I don't know. That was just a really moving scene for me and and just to fight with Moash and Moash's other buddy friend that I can't remember his name. Graves. Graves. Yep. Kaladin coming into that realization and he was fighting no matter the cost. He was willing to die to protect Elokar, someone who he hated. To me, that was just a really moving scene.

Thank

Jonathan (01:41:05.838)
My favorite scene is Shalon trying to get a stick to turn into fire. I am a stick. Don't you want to become fire? I am a stick. It's got actually pretty big implications in terms of investiture and the cognitive realm, but it's just like a great, know, she just washes up on shore. She's confused. She doesn't know what she's going to do. You know, her spren is like, well, you can give investiture over to this stick to turn it into fire. And she's like, that sounds like a great idea.

Thank you.

Jonathan (01:41:35.128)
can't actually do that unable to accomplish said goal.

Very good.

I am a stick.

Also, think Kate Redding, the narrator for Shalon's, well, for all the female perspectives in the audiobook, she does a great job narrating that scene. And so I think a lot of people love her narration of that. And that I think also gathered a big following online. It's a huge, huge meme in the Sander fan world of, am a sta-

I actually think there's a subreddit that's just iamastick.

Spenser (01:42:06.798)
I wouldn't be surprised.

I mean there's an fmoash subreddit so why not? Yeah. Anyway. Final words gents, before we bid adieu to Roshar for now.

Moish.

Casey (01:42:19.342)
I'm interested to see if we get side books on each of the characters in the Injulids, because they did one for Lyft, but I don't know if they did one for the others. What is it? The void, not Voiber, Parshendi woman. Eshenai. Yeah. Eshenai. If there's a pretty cool book he wrote for her in particular, because it seems like...

Who do you consider the others?

Slava (01:42:35.842)
Hello, Chi or

Casey (01:42:47.808)
almost like demonic possession what happened to her during this.

On the subject of Eshanai, actually, before we go, my closing thought, who do you think is going to be in the next book the, here's the full backstory to this person, because I think Eshanai is alive and it's gonna be

Eshena is in the prologue of the next book. I'll say that much because I read part of it. There we go. So we get some background info on her, but I won't tell you what.

think it's actually going to be either Adolin or Dalinar that we're going to start getting the backstory snippets of.

Mmm, Spencer, I can't say anything so right right guys. Yeah

Casey (01:43:29.496)
You already know those silence

Jonathan (01:43:35.344)
man, well this has been fun guys. I really appreciate you getting up early and joining us to talk words of radiance and Sanderson and Stormlight and the Cosmere. I always like geeking out about this stuff. People always ask me like, what are you doing this weekend? I'm like, I'm just talking to my nerd podcast and like, that's cool. was like, yeah, we get up at like 7.45 and we jump on and they're like, excuse me, like you should sleep in on the weekend. And I was like, why, for what? What's the point? Like you live one life. I want to do things that are enjoyable. So hanging out with you guys, always a blast.

Same same.

It's great to be invited on the podcast.

As we depart, we're taking another public break and we will be back in October. I believe it's going to be October 7th or 15th or 11th or something like that. the Tuesday. Yeah, the Tuesday of the second Tuesday of October, whatever that number is. We'll have some announcements this summer as we go through. Thanks for joining us again on SideQuest and be sure to comment things that you're looking for.

on the socials during the break.

Spenser (01:44:40.202)
These words are acceptable.

Well, you made it this far.

Why not go a step further? Rape the show. It helps more than you think.

I am a skit.