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The Healthcare Leaders Podcast by Medico Digital is a fun, straight-talking look at the world of healthcare and pharma marketing - the good, the bad and the ugly!
With interviews from industry experts on everything from creativity to compliance, The Healthcare Leaders Podcast is every health marketer's guide to staying ahead and getting results.
You can expect:
- Interviews with top healthcare marketing experts and influencers.
- Unfiltered insights and advice on the latest healthcare marketing trends.
- Actionable tips and strategies to help you elevate your healthcare brand.
- A behind-the-scenes look at some of the industry's hottest topics.
Whether you're a healthcare marketing newbie or a seasoned veteran, this podcast is for you. We'll give you the insights and inspiration you need to elevate your healthcare brand online in an easy-to-digest, jargon-free podcast!
Find more at https://www.medicodigital.co.uk/
Louis (00:01)
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Healthcare Leaders podcast with Medico Digital. I'm your host, Louis Melichu, Marketing Director at Medico and today I'm delighted to be joined by Pippa Short, our strategic engagement lead and Michelle Riddle, the Chief Executive Officer at the PAGB, the Consumer Healthcare Association. The PAGB is the trade association for manufacturers of over -the -counter branded medicines, self -care, medical devices and food supplements. A number of our clients are full members of the PAGB.
At Medico we are associate members so we work very closely with them on making sure that the content that we produce is compliant, medically accurate and upholds the strictest levels of medical and regulatory review. But support in content production, medical accuracy, claim validation is helpful for us but it's only a very small aspect of what the PHEP do. Recently Michelle and the team have been focusing on pushing the national agenda for self -care and there are so many reasons for that.
not least the billions of pounds the country could save annually by reducing the primary care burden on self -treatable conditions, but the work they do impacts every level of the healthcare industry, from consumers and patients to providers and the life science industry at large. So we wanted to lift the lid on their far -reaching impact and shed some light on the brilliant work that we think can sometimes be taken for granted or not discussed enough. So without further ado, welcome to the podcast, Michelle.
Michelle Riddalls (01:20)
Thank you very much for having me.
Louis (01:22)
Great. I know it's not easy to get a chunk of your time, so I really appreciate carving out a few minutes for us. And what we wanted to do was just to talk through some of the most important objectives that the PAGB have at the moment and how they're impacting the world of OTC, the clients we work with, the brands we work with, and what that's looking like for the whole space, especially when it comes to self -care. So I wouldn't know, I don't know if you would mind just talking through very briefly for anyone that's unaware.
the primary goals of the PAGB as they sit at the moment in the current landscape.
Michelle Riddalls (01:57)
Yeah, no, that's great. And as I said, thank you for having me. So here at PAGB, we represent the manufacturers of the OTC medicines that are branded, self -care medical devices and food supplements. And our main mission really is to empower self -care by being the expert voice of the UK consumer health industry. And we do that through supporting self -regulation and also shaping our environment through policy engagement work.
that we do. And you asked kind of what some of our key objectives at the moment. I think we've probably got four that we work around, really. So one is promoting best practice in self regulation. So in advertising and regulatory influencing the government and policy. And that could be on lots of different areas that may be happening. There's been Brexit, but there has previously been COVID. We're doing stuff on reclassification now.
empowering self -care and also we help members navigate regulatory complexities and some of that is falling out of government changes but others can be around issues that are arising within the environment of self -care and those kind of product portfolios we oversee.
Louis (03:16)
Great, thank you for that. And you mentioned the importance of self -care, and I think that is a particular topical one as the burden to the NHS increases year on year for reasons that we don't need to delve into. How important do you think it is for the NHS and to alleviate some of the strain that it's under to really promote self -care and get a handle on how...
the population can take care into their own hands at that early stage or for some of those minor conditions that take up a lot of the NHS time and budget. Is that something that's always been a big part of the PAGB's remit and focus?
Michelle Riddalls (03:53)
Yeah, it definitely has. We've been talking about self -care, I believe, since about 1973, so a long, long time ago. And we've been looking at various ways over time on how to empower self -care. And more recently, we've been looking at trying to get self -care policy onto the government's agenda. So when we're talking self -care, we're not...
Louis (03:59)
Wow.
Michelle Riddalls (04:19)
we're not kind of talking no care. And I think some people worry about that a little bit. It's the actions that people take for themselves to look after their health and that of their family. So it isn't doing nothing. And what we've been pushing for is a policy to kind of enable self care, help the NHS drive people to pharmacy and to retailers and to utilize pharmacists.
Louis (04:24)
Hmm.
Michelle Riddalls (04:48)
and some self -care to treat those self -treatable conditions. We did a survey last year and we know that 96 % of the population suffers at least one self -treatable condition a year and in fact 43 % have five or more a year. So that's an awful lot of treatments to be done and if somebody can go and use self -care it's quick.
Louis (05:08)
Wow.
Michelle Riddalls (05:15)
It's convenient, it enables access and it takes some of that pressure away from the NHS. And again, in some research that we produced last year, we could show that there were at least 25 million GP appointments and 5 million A &E appointments for self -treatable conditions. So if you converted that and enabled wider self -care, that then means that you're...
potentially save the NHS £1 .7 billion per year without having those appointments. So there's a big impact to be had if you can really harness it as you go forward.
Louis (05:48)
Wow.
Yeah.
And I think you mentioned 43 % of people there. I think I'm probably in the 1 % that has 10 and above self -treatable conditions for a year. And I'm not sure if that's through my daughters bringing them home from nursery or if I'm just cursed with an immune system that doesn't quite do what it needs to. But I completely understand that. And just to bring it back to layman's terms, when we're talking about self -treatable conditions, we're talking about common colds, things like indigestion, things that are taking up GP's time to diagnose and treat when it properly doesn't need to be.
Michelle Riddalls (06:04)
Yeah.
Yeah, no, very much so, like cough, cold, basically anything that you could go into a pharmacy and buy over the counter, see on the shelves in a supermarket to treat. So yeah, cough, cold, things that children bring back from nursery, stomach aches, upset, travel sickness. But even now, there are wider things with some of the switches that have taken place of erectile dysfunction.
Louis (06:49)
Yeah.
Michelle Riddalls (06:56)
You can now buy the pill over the counter as well. So there are some longer term ones, but I think, and obviously they were included, but generally the kind of small ailments, blocked nose, ears, you know, throat type of things that we all get. And I think I'm definitely one of the person that gets more than one, probably around at least five a year as well. Children are a great source of challenging your immune system for sure.
Louis (07:11)
Yeah.
Yeah, definitely. And so when you've been in discussions with the government, or when you're speaking to the government about improvements that could be made or policies that could be put in place to support self care, broadly, what does that look like? If you had free rein, if you were brought into parliament tomorrow and can put in place some of the things that you've been working on, what would you be asking the government to do to support this?
Michelle Riddalls (07:49)
Well, I think some of the key messages really are around empowering people to self -care by increasing awareness and education of self -treatable conditions. And that includes harnessing some of those digital tools to direct people to self -care information in the first place. There was be ensuring a supportive self -care environment through fully integrating a pharmacy's role in primary care.
and help retain our leadership in reclassification. So that means you're then widening the access to medicines that you can buy from a pharmacy. And then also recognizing the OTC sector as a cornerstone of the UK life science industry and ensuring an attractive regulatory environment for innovation. So I think all of those pieces marry together and certainly.
when we're talking to the current government, to the Department of Health, to the NHS, and also we're now reaching out to kind of opposition parties with the forthcoming election to ensure that they are also aware of the asks that we have.
Louis (09:07)
Yeah, so it's probably a good time to speak about that. I'm aware that you were on a panel discussion recently with the Shadow Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, Wes Streeting, and given what looks likely to come with the next general election, I think that's a really important conversation to have. How did that go and how receptive do you feel the government are to these types of questions that you're putting forward?
Michelle Riddalls (09:31)
Well, I think it went really well. It was great to be able to have an opportunity to speak with Wes before the panel and then actually obviously have the discussion on the panel that we had. And I think, as I mentioned, some of the figures that I've just mentioned here to you are the same figures that I was sharing with him and during the panel. And I think that does make quite an impact on people because, you know, it's like...
Louis (09:39)
Mm.
Michelle Riddalls (09:59)
really there's no loser in this, like the NHS wins, pharmacists win because you're driving football into their shops and you know it's enabling them as great clinical healthcare professionals to support people where they can and it's the convenience and access point of view for individuals as well. So you know it's much easier, pharmacists and retailers are open outside of
Louis (10:03)
Yeah.
Michelle Riddalls (10:29)
know, GP's hours, you can get there much, much easier. So he was very open to that. He seemed very receptive. We also talked about digital. We know that he's quite keen on digital and we did a digital audit last year on the NHS website and the app and what they were looking like. And they were showing that it was quite fragmented and some of the information.
it wasn't easy to find. So we are recommending the idea of a self care hub where you can use your app or go on to the NHS website to get that kind of information. And certainly he did feedback that that was seemed like a good idea going forward. And, you know, that was an area of interest for him. So I think there's potentially not that we can hopefully do going forward.
Louis (11:24)
Right, yeah, and the toolkit is an interesting one. I'll put a link to that in the show notes for anybody that wants to go and have a look to it because there's a lot of great information in there. How, it might be too early to say, I suppose, but how much of what you're putting forwards in terms of the policies you think should be in place and the hubs that you've mentioned there, how much of that aligns with...
what the government might look to be doing with the NHS themselves, do you think? Or is this something that's still quite far away in terms of understanding and plans and that there's a lot of work to be done between now and then?
Michelle Riddalls (11:55)
Okay. Yeah, well, the current government has already put seven of the nine kind of recommendations that we had had around self care into the primary care recovery plan, which came out in May last year. So together with some other partners, which include...
the Royal College of GPs, the Self Care Forum, some of the pharmacy associations. PAGB had put forward in 2021 a plan, a blueprint of what self care policy could look like with nine recommendations in it. And last year, seven out of those nine were included in that policy. So that was really positive. So I think.
it's already now getting embedded and work is happening to ensure that that's implemented. The self -care strategy group that pulled that together that I've just mentioned is now provided what a delivery plan should look like and what they need to check against to make sure it happens to kind of keep them accountable. And, you know, as far as I'm aware at the moment, obviously, if there is a government change,
they're not looking to come in and change absolutely everything. So if you've got something that's going to empower and continue, we hope that that would continue. We're not hearing that there's going to be a massive, dramatic change from that perspective. We do know that Labour is focused on pharmacies, that it is wanting to bring self -care and empowerment back to the patient and utilising resources outside of the NHS. So I think all of those things coming together.
given that we've got a piece now happening and moving forward within this government, that that can continue but then actually be built on as we move further forward because I think there is more that can be done. We've seen the rollout of pharmacy first, which we believe is a positive thing in empowering pharmacies and getting people to go to pharmacies. So building on that could be a future success as well.
Louis (13:50)
Mm.
Nice. So it's more picking up the baton from the work that's being done already and making sure those relationships are in place with whoever's going to be the next government, as opposed to looking at needing to kind of start from scratch, I suppose.
Michelle Riddalls (14:25)
Yes, that's very much and that's why we're trying to develop some of those relationships with the potential future government so that we aren't starting from scratch and they understand what's there and what's important. Yeah.
Louis (14:35)
What's already been done.
make sense.
Pippa (14:40)
Yeah, I think that makes sense. Just to kind of counter that the other side, I suppose, though, thinking about maybe the challenges, I suppose, and those barriers in terms of self care and access. I mean, you talked about wanting to promote education and awareness actually of self care in terms of, I suppose, those challenges that maybe hinder adoption of self care. We talk a lot.
mainly about health literacy, health inequality, that type of thing. I suppose, how do you think the PAGB and the self care industry can really help and try and remove some of those barriers?
Michelle Riddalls (15:22)
Well, one I think is continuing shouting about it and making it aware, which is kind of what we do as part of this kind of campaign. One of the asks going forward is looking at how children and younger people can get educated at school level around self care and try and get that on the.
kind of curriculum in the educational side of things to help push that forward. That was one of the things that wasn't included in the primary care recovery plan, but we're already in discussions with the Department of Health about that. And it's just that they're different departments in the government, so you're not going to get one piece, but that's definitely one. I think the other that's, you know, puts...
our members in a really unique position is that brands are very well thought of and brands that are out there. You know, if you think of Calpo, if you think of Neurofen, you know, Panadol, Gaviscon, Caniston, you've got all of these big brands that have got great resources and websites behind them. And our members are experts at communicating with consumers as if they're consumers, as if they're empowered, not in a patient.
kind of way is in providing knowledge and support so that they can understand in user friendly terms. You know, if you go and look on a website, it's not written in technical language. It's written in easily understandable language. And a lot of those websites have additional information on there, not just about the product, but about the illness state behind it, how to treat it, what to do.
when you should see a doctor if there are red flags. So what we're also saying is that our members can help support some of the healthcare literacy issues because we could be good conduits in helping provide information, providing government messages because that's our key area. We are used to talking to consumers and so the government could utilise that support.
Previously, quite a few years ago, it's probably five to eight years ago, I can't quite remember. Things begin to, it was before I was CEO, but when I was in industry, there was an initiative already where the NHS and industry worked together with something called Treat Yourself Better campaign, and it ran during cough cold season. And the idea was to drive people to pharmacies and to stop them going to see GPs about cough cold related things.
So there was a lot of messaging about go to your pharmacist for support. And what companies were able to do was to put the tag on adverts. So they could then have it on their cough cold medicines, which may then be appearing in the middle of a coronation street. And it actually had at the end, you know, go and see your pharmacist first and, you know, talk to them about cough cold. And the aim was then to, you know, prevent people from going to GPs about it.
So we've shown that we can work together to empower people to do that. So I think there's lots of different things that we can do to help support those things. I think also in terms of inequalities, you know, it's a very difficult area, but I think we know that approximately 80 % of people in England are just 20 minutes walk from a pharmacy and...
that that actually rises to 99 % of people who are in the areas of highest deprivation. So being able to go to a pharmacy, you know, within a 20 minute walk and talk about health, you know, it is showing and helping overcome some of those things that is a place that people can go to get to and get help and advice. And I think what Pharmacy First is showing and you know,
hopefully when people are realizing that they can buy reclassified medicines is that the pharmacist is an expert in health and is another pool of call at the appropriate time to to to link in and learn and understand.
Pippa (19:50)
Yeah, completely. And it's I guess it's that accessibility piece as well. Accessibility in terms of what you can find online, but also who you can go and speak to, which is really important. And the piece you touched on a minute ago about getting self care into schools, I think as those generations get older, having that education and knowing where they can go is going to be really important. Brilliant. I think one of the other pieces we wanted to touch on, which I think you might have
mentioned earlier was just on the economic impact of OTC and the report that you guys brought out earlier in the year or last year I think, just in terms of what opportunities there really are for policymakers if they're going to really embrace OTC medicines.
Michelle Riddalls (20:24)
Yes. Yep.
Yeah, so I'd mentioned already that if we can kind of convert those GP appointments and A &E appointments, you could save £1 .7 billion a year. There's other work that can be done around reclassification and that's another key area that we're looking at. So reclassification is where you're looking to take prescription medicines.
and move them to a pharmacy state so that a pharmacist can sell them rather than them coming on prescription. And to do that, you need to be able to show a company needs to be able to show that that can safely happen when provided by a pharmacist. And if more products and we just give an example of if 5 % of products got switched from
prescription only to pharmacy, you could save the NHS a further £1 .4 billion each year because again, you're saving on prescription costs, you're saving on GP appointments going forward. So that's a really big opportunity as well. One of the other things that I found quite interesting within it, well,
I found two other things quite interesting. We'd never had this data before and I'd asked Frontier Economics when we commissioned to look at this, is how much money or it was saving the economy for people using OTCs. So this was if you took an OTC and you were unable to go to work where previously you may have had to stay at home because you were too unwell.
how many additional days per year did people think that they were actually saving? And the data that we got back showed that on average people were saying they think they saved five days a year going to work because they were able to go because they've taken a painkiller, a cough cold thing, they've taken an anti -diarrhea tablet, you know, something like that, the kind of things that we all take for granted. But you think if they weren't there, you would have not been able to go to work.
And so when that's then calculated up across the working population, that equates to 18 billion pounds worth of savings a year because people are taking an OTC and unable to go to work for the five days that they wouldn't have been able to before. So I was really fascinated like that. I was just, you know, the money is one side of it, but the actual thing, it was five days that it was saving per working person per year was quite amazing. And some of that as well was,
we ask them to look at parents of children. So treating children as well to make sure that you could then still go to work has quite an impact. Louie mentioned about getting things from nurseries. If you can't send your child to nursery, you can't then work. And so you get that knock on impact as well. So that was one other exciting stat. The other one which I found quite interesting.
And again, we hadn't had this type of information for was a bit around the prevention agenda. So again, when I'm talking to government, we people talk about critical medicines and the NHS and I, I always get the feeling that OTCs aren't seen as quite as important. They're just there. Well, we know that we sold in 2022 just shy of 1 billion OTC medicines.
Pippa (24:13)
Mm -hmm.
Michelle Riddalls (24:21)
self -care medical devices and food supplements. So those products that our members have was just shy of one billion. But if of that one billion, I think there were just over 12 million sales of antiseptic creams and antiseptics and things like that. And I'd again ask the team to look at, well, what could have potentially happened if people hadn't have used an antiseptic?
And when you work through those things, if an antiseptic isn't used, you could end up getting an infection. If that infection then proliferates, you can end up with sepsis. If you then end up with sepsis, you're in hospital as an emergency life -threatening condition. And we kind of looked through that. And in our report on this, there's kind of all the detail behind it.
But if you presumed that for every time you used 10 ,000 products that there was one case of sepsis that you didn't have, you were saving, I think it was ultimately four million pounds a year in just not being in the hospital, but also other savings behind it. But I think almost more importantly, you were saving that person going through a very traumatic...
life -threatening disease and illness. Now, of course, not everyone ends up in sepsis, and I'm not saying that, but even the amount of infections that that would have stopped. You know, if you think of the amount of times that you've had to put an antiseptic wipe on your child or yourself, or put a cream on and then put plasters on, if they weren't around, you're more likely, you know, people died in the olden days of things like that much more frequently because it wasn't available. And so it's just kind of saying to people,
look what we do without you even properly realising the impact of what if we weren't there. That's kind of where you're coming from.
Louis (26:25)
So interesting. I feel like the classification of OTC, because it connotes more safety, it also connotes at the same time, less impact. But I think from what it sounds like, a lot of the work that you have to do is just trying to reverse the situation where OTC and all of these products are taken for granted and really open people's eyes to what they've already done and what they could do if we lent into them in a stronger way or a more structured way.
I think that's super interesting.
Was there anything else you wanted to talk about in terms of the challenges bit there?
Michelle Riddalls (27:04)
I don't think so. I think, you know, it, I think really it's, you know, all a challenge, you know, can then become an opportunity as anybody who's done SWOT analysis or anything like that will know and Pippa and I were doing one earlier this week just on new PHDB strategy for our next five years. But I think, you know, the barriers there.
and do provide opportunities going forward. And I think, you know, digital piece adds opportunity if we can start getting self care hubs, if we can get people being able to utilize those areas, using our members for support, I think we can really make some important steps as we go forward. And then I think, you know, we're still really pushing reclassification because again,
One of the things that our members can do is bring new products to market, can widen access of medicines and trying to make that process as streamlined and easy as possible. Obviously, you know, you need to make sure it's safe and that goes without saying, but it's quite complex and time consuming and expensive to do it at the moment. And companies in general very rarely get...
any exclusivity around that. So we're trying to find ways of well, how can we make that better to then bring in more, more products and enable that widen self care as we move forward.
Pippa (28:47)
It's amazing really what goes into it. I suppose we work in healthcare, but, and like as a patient myself, I definitely take for granted just going down to boots and buying some antiseptic cream, but the amount that actually goes into it and that reclassification piece definitely, I think probably gets overlooked far more than it actually should.
Michelle Riddalls (29:08)
Yeah, I mean, reclassification is a really long process and, you know, I only moved to PAGB like five years ago now. And prior to that, I was in industry and I think, you know, I was doing these reclassifications. I was the UK lead and main person working with MHRA on Viagra Switch. And believe it or not, 20 odd years ago, you couldn't buy a cow pole bottle outside of a pharmacy.
and I was involved in switching that so that you could actually get it off a supermarket shelf. And you think of the long way that it's come and things that you take for granted. And we did a big 40 year celebration at the end of December last year on reclassification because it had been 40 years since the actual reclassification process got set up. There were things OTC before that, but nothing that...
had switched and that year in 1983, both ibuprofen switched from prescription as did Imodium. So in that year, you had the first two switches come out and that's now changed. We now have both of them available, GSL that you can now get off the switch. Interestingly, in Ireland, you still can't get ibuprofen GSL. It's still only a pharmacy product and a lot of...
people aren't aware of that. But can you imagine that you couldn't go and buy a pack of Neurofen somewhere in Tesco, Sainsbury's, as do your corner shop, the petrol station? It seems crazy to us. Yeah.
Pippa (30:33)
Yeah.
Louis (30:45)
Yeah, it does. It seems mad.
And it's really interesting to think in 10 years time what might seem mad that we previously had to go through that process to get.
Michelle Riddalls (30:56)
Yeah, and I think that's what's really exciting as well. And certainly, you know, when I was working in industry and not now, because I still find it exciting, but I was involved in some of these new ones as I was coming along. You know, Viagra was the first time something had been on the market for erectile dysfunction, brand new category, but other things have been out there that brand new category. We've seen Gina now come out for HRT. We've seen Levina and Hammer for the pill.
There was MalofProtect for malaria. So you're actually having some of these new brand new conditions and categories opening up, which is part of what we're looking at on the reclassification alliance of where else could you go with this? Because like you say, 10, 20 years ago, there were things that weren't even out there and now there are. So what could be next?
Louis (31:51)
Yeah, it's super interesting. Just to switch gears slightly, we've talked about access to information and we've talked about reclassification. Something else that's interesting to me, at least in terms of how we work with some of the brands that sit under the PAGB in our work for content creation and I suppose communication.
Pippa (31:52)
Yeah, definitely.
Louis (32:16)
the with the rise of how the digital landscape is for people looking for their own information. It's important to get access to that. But I think it's also just as important to acknowledge the prevalence of misinformation and the danger that can have. And I just wonder if you have any thoughts or the PHP generally around how
that can be managed because I can imagine being in your position that that would feel incredibly overwhelming because you pay such a pivotal role for us and with our clients in making sure that the information that is being created is validated and medically accurate and of the highest quality. But in terms of where people are going for that information, I think the members of the BGP probably present a relatively small percentage of what's out there and.
I don't, it's not for you to, to stand up and be able to go and deal with all of that. But is that something that ever comes up in terms of how can you possibly have the resource and capacity and oversight of all of those? Or is that something else that platforms such as, as Google technical, technology platforms, where people are going to that information need to have more of a, a forward facing stance on, on that type of misinformation being created.
Michelle Riddalls (33:34)
Yeah, I think it's a really interesting question. I think it is a difficult scenario. And I think one of the reasons why we're calling for an NHS hub is because the NHS is a trusted source of information. And I think in the UK, we're actually really lucky that we've got an NHS source of information. It hasn't got everything that we want on it at the moment. But if you or I...
you know, go and search for something and it's coming up on the NHS website, we are pretty sure that's trusted. And actually, we've done a survey this year, and this is some exclusive information because it's not published yet. But in the survey that we've done this year, we asked people, you know, where do you find trusted sources of information? This was on 4000 people and 84 % said they trust the NHS sources to find health information. So that's great.
Louis (34:13)
Nice.
Michelle Riddalls (34:30)
We also asked them about, you know, I was talking about brands and the trust behind that. And that actually came in at 60 % that they trusted the brands, which again is pretty high when you're thinking about all of those types of things. So I think there are sources. I think the trouble is how do you stop someone being influenced by TikTok, social media, what they're reading online or what's on X and Twitter, which may or.
Louis (34:41)
Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Michelle Riddalls (35:00)
may not be correct and then they're not picking up it's correct. And I think that's going to be a question that challenges everyone as we go forward. But I think all we can do is, you know, I think we hold our members to account and they, you know, they are on TikTok, they are using social media to get their messages across as well. So that's positive. But I think all we can do is ensure that we're pushing the message.
of where people can go. As I said, I do think we're lucky with the NHS here because, you know, if you're in another country and you don't have that central repository, you might be searching around more. But it's just, you know, directing people to the right place and things, I think, is really all we can try and do. And then, again, that's why having a self -care hub.
Louis (35:46)
Yeah.
Michelle Riddalls (35:53)
where it's easy to find that information is almost so important because the easier it is to get to, the more likely someone is going to use it.
Louis (36:01)
Yeah, that's a really great answer. I think Google, for example, with what they've done with the knowledge panels and they're doing similar trusted sources on YouTube are leading the way to some extent. And a lot of that is just trying to make that NHS information much more accessible. I don't think we're going to be anywhere close to getting that from a, from a TikTok or an X anytime soon. So I suppose it's picking your battles and just making sure that you're having that kind of positive change with the self -care hub that you've talked about how.
Michelle Riddalls (36:25)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Louis (36:31)
How soon, if we assume that that is something that can get done, how quickly do you think that could get done? Is that something that people, there have been positive discussions about? Is it purely theoretical at this stage and just an idea for how to categorize that information? What does it look like in a potential reality?
Michelle Riddalls (36:51)
Yeah, I think it's, there have been a couple of discussions, but they were a couple of years ago. And I think so it's kind of a theoretical piece at this moment in time. However, there is self care information on the on the webs on the NHS website. It isn't that it's not there. It's just, it's not always easy to find. So it may be a matter of coordinating and then adding to it.
Louis (37:06)
Hmm.
Michelle Riddalls (37:18)
rather than starting completely from scratch because we do know, you know, there is stuff there, it's just fragmented. I'm sure there's more that could be done and then making it more easily findable. Yeah, so, but I can't give an estimate. To be honest, I'm not technical enough and not down in that detail to know, but I think if at least it's got an aim, then hopefully it should then.
Louis (37:22)
Yeah.
No.
Yeah, and I think the way that you've described it there sounds actually a lot less daunting because it's maybe just as much about collating the right information and putting it in the right places than it is trying to start something from scratch, which I think in terms of the resource created needed to create something like that is going to be quite large.
Michelle Riddalls (37:47)
happen.
Yeah, definitely.
Pippa (38:04)
The piece you touched on just a minute ago in terms of the survey results as well is really interesting in terms of using the NHS as a resource, but also using those brand sites as well. I think that's quite high actually, but I think we as consumers also trust brands to be an authority. And I suppose those ones that are members of the PAGB are getting that validation and the authoritative nature of what they're saying is...
Louis (38:14)
Hmm.
Pippa (38:33)
validated I suppose and goes through a regulatory process.
Michelle Riddalls (38:36)
Yeah, definitely. I mean, there is the PAGB code for consumers. There's the one for HCPs as well. So, you know, as part of PAGB and we cover 90 % of the branded industry out there that, you know, they've never been allowed to say bad things, you know, since 1919, since we've been in place, there has been...
codes of conduct on what you can say around claims and things. So, you know, you can see how they built trust because they have been maintaining these standards the whole of the time and aren't out there saying outrageous things or outrageous claims that no one believes. And a lot of the products, you know, have been around for a number of years. And, you know, I was given cow poll as a kid and then I'm now giving it to my children. And...
you know, that does build all of that trust. Interestingly, I worked on CowPol for like six years before I had children and never fully appreciated it until I then did. But yeah, so it's, it is kind of interesting on where you can go with that.
Louis (39:31)
Mm.
Pippa (39:40)
you
Louis (39:55)
Another thing we just quickly wanted to touch on was some of the partnerships that you guys have set up. And I know obviously there's a lot of collaboration happens between the members that sit underneath you, but in terms of making sure that your objectives are aligned and working with other groups, is that a significant...
challenge and also opportunity I suppose in terms of making sure that people are pulling in the same direction and trying to achieve the same kind of positive outcomes.
Michelle Riddalls (40:27)
Yeah, I mean, we do a lot of work with a lot of different people and I can give you some examples in a second. But one of the things that I've realized actually through doing some of the strategy work that we've been doing to look at our next five year strategy, we got some feedback about, you know, you should be working more with some of the other trade associations or things that it's like.
We do, we're having meetings with them every week on different things. And what we realized is we're doing that and taking it for granted and not actually telling people. Again, yeah, and it kind of just stuff that's going on behind the scenes because we're doing stakeholder management. We're talking about them. We're aligning with them. And then you, like you say, you then presume that people know and some people will because we're talk about it in.
Louis (41:03)
assuming that everyone knows that that's happening.
Michelle Riddalls (41:23)
some of the working groups, but it's not widely known. So we've realised that we actually need to kind of up the ante and make sure that we're sharing what we do. So Fahana, our head of comms is now very keen on us taking pictures all the time to put on LinkedIn. And Pippo was involved in that when we had our meeting. Because, you know, it's a way of, and a lot of members do use that.
and see it. So if we posted that we've been with someone, I did one with BGMA a couple of weeks ago and I talked to Paul a lot as does my team. We don't always meet in person, but we're on a lot of shared meetings. And like Farhadah said, you're in the office, Paul, can I take a picture? And like both him and I are going, my God, you know, like, no. And then it was really interesting. I had a number of people say, I saw you were with BGMA and it was like,
Louis (41:51)
Hmm.
Michelle Riddalls (42:19)
yeah, yeah, and we got a lot of likes for that. And again, it's just us a bit taking it granted. So it's certainly something that we're going to be upping now. But so we work, we do work closely with ABPI and BGMA from a meds perspective. We work closely with HFMA and CRN on the food supplement side. We have, I think they're quarterly tripartite meetings.
with them. We have meetings with medtech forums, so they're a group, again I think they're quarterly, they're a group of all of the medtech trade associations getting together to talk about what's going on. So we do that and we're linked in pretty well with work with the pharmacy associations as well. I'm sure there's more that we can do in different areas. the other one that gets mentioned is CTPI because
A lot of our members also have cosmetics as well as the kind of products that we have. And we went as a management team, went over to meet with their management team, probably about eight or nine weeks ago, and we're doing a collaboration there. So it's always useful for us because we're quite small. There are other trade associations that are smaller, some that are bigger, but hearing what other trade associations do and how they're tackling things.
Louis (43:20)
Mm -hmm.
Michelle Riddalls (43:46)
is always super helpful because there are often synergies, especially in some of the challenges we're facing. All of us in medicines are having issues with MHRA at the moment and trying to make sure their performance is better in the sense of quicker. And since their transformation, they've not been as efficient as they were before. So we've all got joined up thinking on what needs to be done and things like that.
I think so that's from one side. We then working on the reclassification alliance, which I've mentioned, which is a, you know, official between Department of Health, PAGB and MHRA looking at reclassification, which is endorsed by number 10 and the work that's come out of that. We're part of the self care strategy group, which is this was originally this clinical consensus group that then.
this blueprint of what self -care should look like in 2021 which I mentioned earlier and you know that's been really positive. Fahana who's again the head of COMBS is on the Self -Care Forum board and I actually sit on the AESGP which is the European Trade Association for OTCs board and also the Global Self -Care Federation board so yeah.
Louis (45:08)
Where on earth do you find the time?
Pippa (45:10)
lot.
Michelle Riddalls (45:13)
Well, yeah, this is what I do struggle with sometimes, as you might see me going around being quite hectic. Yeah, it's, it can be quite busy. There are times it's busier than others. But a lot of the themes, I guess, with ASGP and global self care, we kind of interact quite a lot because...
you know, UK build and build out to Europe and things. So, but yeah, but it makes it interesting anyway. And I think one of the good things that we've seen is that the UK is looked at in terms of self care as well, as one of the kind of outstanding countries in the world. And actually, the Global Self Care Federation did a readiness index, I think it came out, was it two?
Louis (45:41)
similar here.
Michelle Riddalls (46:08)
three years ago, can't quite remember, two or three years ago anyway, Global Self Care ReginX index. And the UK was topping that. And, you know, that was great. But we were saying, okay, that's great, but there's still more we could do. We didn't have it in policy then. We still had big steps we needed to take, but we were, you know, quite far advanced compared to other countries. So, I mean, that's positive because I think...
the way we're set up, actually our legal status of categorizing medicines with prescription pharmacy and GSL, which means getting it from retailers, supermarkets, corner shops, petrol stations, really enables us to move products around and widen access. And as a result, last year I went to Sweden to talk with some members of their government.
it was via the trade association there on how we do prescription and reclassification and reclassifying medicines from palm to pea and how it works over here in Sweden. One of my team members did a podcast for the Australian, not Australian, Australian Trade Association. I did some stuff.
Pippa (47:25)
Thank you.
Michelle Riddalls (47:29)
with IFA in Ireland as well, looking, sharing some of the stats that I shared with you today. I was sharing with them over there because they were looking at widening self -care. So yeah, we kind of get involved in a lot, but it makes everything varied and exciting, I think. So.
Pippa (47:50)
Yeah, I'd definitely say from those strategy meetings, I kind of I think I have kind of underestimated the actual scope of the PAGB and I've come away since both of them basically coming back to Louie and the team being like, my goodness, they do this, they do that. It really is incredible the breadth that you cover. And I suppose, like you say, you it's just what you do, you get on with it goes day by day, but actually hearing about it is such an interesting association and those collaborations.
Michelle Riddalls (47:59)
You
Yeah.
Pippa (48:19)
you are doing really do have an impact. So it's been really great to learn about it.
Michelle Riddalls (48:23)
that's really nice. It's great to hear that because you know, you don't. Yeah, I guess you all have your own little touch points of what we're doing and you don't necessarily always see the bigger picture. And so for us, it is trying to, you know, one of the challenges we have is how do we share the information that we're doing and not share too much so we're completely in your face. But but then how do we get the right messages across and.
wear and things like that and it isn't always easy sometimes.
Louis (48:58)
Yeah, that feels like a recurring theme here. And maybe podcasts like this can be a step in the direction to kind of look under the covers a little bit in terms of what's going on. And hopefully we'll be treated to more selfies as more of these meetings are going on and becoming more active on LinkedIn. Just finally, in terms of the strategy meetings you've had recently, I'm sure you're not going to want to divulge any of the...
Michelle Riddalls (49:14)
Yeah.
Pippa (49:15)
you
Louis (49:24)
the top secret information or being worked on information that's going on there. But in terms of the priorities for the PHP over the next year and, and the future, are they, are they completely set? Are there changes? Is there any changes in direction or things that upcoming that you've kind of got half an eye on that are going to be coming more into, into.
Michelle Riddalls (49:46)
I think what we've been saying in the meetings, because we've also been looking at member feedback as we've gone into those meetings, because we've had a previous five year strategy. And, you know, we're really pleased to say that we've had last year, it was 100 % member satisfaction. So, so we had, I'm just trying to, I think it was 31 out of the 46 members respond, which is quite a high response rate.
Louis (50:03)
Wow.
Yeah.
Michelle Riddalls (50:14)
that does involve me texting heads of company sometimes going, please put it in. So please respond. But when they have responded, it has all been despite my nagging positive. So what we realized from that is that we're doing something right. You know, a membership organization getting 100 % satisfaction is quite rare. So.
Louis (50:15)
Hahaha.
Yeah.
Michelle Riddalls (50:40)
We have really looked at the strategy in terms of evolution rather than revolution. So it's kind of going along the same line, but we have always and we've done this even in the last five years, we're looking at what we want in five years, but each year we adapt and can change as we go through. So you might have an overarching goal that you've got a plan for, but those plans may change.
Louis (50:46)
makes sense.
Michelle Riddalls (51:09)
as you go. So there's always ability to adapt. And then in the middle of everything, we started our last strategy in 2020. And, you know, obviously COVID came in and suddenly that was a big strategy piece we had to deal with, which was unexpected. So it's kind of not set in stone. But I think our overarching aims and goals are quite similar. That's how it's feeling at the moment. Anyway, I don't know Pippa if that's your take as well.
Louis (51:24)
Mm.
Pippa (51:39)
Yeah, I definitely would agree and I think that evolution not revolution is definitely really key. I think it's also in the in the last one we kind of discussed what's what's been done but what still needs to be worked on. We're not just throwing everything out, we're thinking about okay how can we enhance further so I think that's been a really great discovery piece I suppose. What's gone well, what can we enhance and what is new but yeah I think definitely that piece about
assessing the landscape, what's changing, what's happening definitely comes through which has been really really good.
Louis (52:13)
Great. Thank you guys. That was a really eye -opening conversation, at least for me and hopefully for some of our listeners as well. And we've just spent a lot of time discussing just how busy you are, Michelle. So I think we'll stop taking up so much of your time at this point and say thank you very much for joining us. It's been a pleasure.
Michelle Riddalls (52:33)
Well, thank you very much for having me. It's been great to talk with you and share my thoughts. So thank you very much.
Louis (52:39)
great.