Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Regenerative by Design Podcast where we get to the root of health, climate, economics and food. Host, Joni Kindwall-Moore, is an RN, an Ethnobotanist and the founder of Snacktivist Foods. Join us on this journey as we explore the ideas, stories and personalities behind the regenerative food system movement including climate change, human health, economics and food as well as other deeply interconnected topics.
In this podcast, we will be “going there” and leaning into topics that might make you squirm… just a little. We want to challenge ourselves to think outside of the box and to discover the deeper side of our world’s problems so that we can better understand how to solve them.
We aim to unpack some of the most dynamic issues of our day with some of the most inspiring minds who are pushing the boundaries of our current norms and thinking paradigms.
We have seen incredibly disruptive events in the past few years like pandemics, climate events, disasters and war. These often trigger system changes that are reactionary and have short term gains. When these are practiced over the long term, they often have a degenerative effect on health and the environment.
Regenerative design thinking is the opposite, and is an intentional, premeditated process that involves a high level of observation, analysis, creativity, and looking beyond reductionistic principles while embracing systems thinking and additionality to create regenerative solutions.
Regenerative agriculture has become a powerful force for positive transformation and hope in todays world. And no discussion about agriculture is complete without a conversation about food.
Food is the connection between people and the planet so grab a cup of coffee or your favorite running shoes and get ready to take a mental and philosophical leap into the future of food and our planet.
Joanna, hello, everyone. You are
listening to the regenerative by
design podcast where we will be
getting to the root of health,
climate, economics and food. I
am your host. Joni quinwell
Moore, join me on this journey
as we explore the stories of
individuals and organizations
who are working to realign our
food system with both human
health and the health of our
planet. Welcome everybody to the
regenerative by design Podcast.
I'm Joni your host. I'm so happy
to have you here today because
we have one of my favorite
regional farmers joining me
here, Aaron Beier Brock, who is
from Eastern Washington, or
Central Washington, and he's
going to tell us today about his
farming management. He has a
large farm and does all kinds of
incredible things. And in my
mind, Aaron, and then also one
of his good friends and neighbor
farmers, Douglas pool, are two
of the leaders in our region
that are really proving that we
can change the paradigm around
at scale, dryland, AG, and do it
better for us and better for the
planet. So welcome, Aaron. I'm
so stoked that you're here with
us today. Hi,
Joanie, thanks for having me
today. Yeah, yeah. So I
feel like we've gotten to know
one another over the last couple
of years. And I was first
introduced to your work via our,
you know, our bio farming and
farm smart group of farmers that
we're so lucky to have. And for
those of you who are listening
and you didn't catch the episode
where I interviewed Ty Meyer and
then Scott Gale, years back
during season one, we are so
lucky in the Inland Northwest
that our Spokane Conservation
District and Pacific Northwest
direct Seed Association years
back, put together a regional
regenerative verification
program to make soil health a
huge focus for at scale, dryland
ag and and you guys were really
early movers in that whole
thing, weren't you? Yeah,
we're super lucky to have Ty
Meyer and the Conservation
District working on this for us,
because in our area that Doug
and I farm, there's no one else
doing what we're doing. It's
really nice to have a group that
we can share stories with and
successes and failures and
people to bounce ideas off. And
I think it would be very hard to
do if we were the only ones
doing it
100% and one of the things I've
always loved hearing from your
group of farmers a it's really
cool, because I feel like you
guys are all really genuinely
committed to what you're doing,
and you're all friends and like
good people. And every year I
see you guys come together and
really swap notes, and I feel
like you get, like, 10 years of
learning in in a season by
sharing your experiences in a
really raw way
to be true, it's great. You
know, we just got back from the
conservation districts farm and
food symposium, and I'm starting
to notice that every time our
group gets together, it's more
and more like a family reunion,
that with a family you really,
yeah,
cousin family. Yeah, it really
is. It really is. And, you know,
I just feel like, um, it's
really great to to learn from
you all, because I'm not a
farmer. I mean, grew up with a
foot in the farm, but not ever
running a farm. And when I'm out
in the world talking about
regenerative and I'm always on
the market side, or the more of
that kind of thought leadership,
evangelizer stance, and I always
hear from people, but that's not
possible. There's no way that
you can do at scale productive
agriculture not being completely
dependent on chemicals. That's
what we've been told for
decades, and that's what we know
to be true. Do you find that to
be true, Aaron, we're
trying to disprove that as best
we can. Yeah, yeah. No. Doug and
I both farm in a seven to nine
inch rainfall zone here in like
a desert. It's like a desert.
Desert moisture is absolutely
our limiting factor. But that
doesn't mean that it's just a
smaller scale than what the guys
that have irrigation, a lot of
water are used to. You know,
about 10 years ago, we started
doing no till, and NRCS has
great programs to pursue the
conservation side of things, and
they're starting to catch on to
the soil health side of things,
but it's kind of slow, so we're
kind of on our on our own here,
and so we're trying to use their
conservation dollars to to do
the conservation side of it, but
also to increase our soil
health. And one of the things
that I'm that I'm starting for
the first time this year, is
continuous cropping. I you know,
follow, we live in a
conventional fallow area, but
we've been doing no till, like I
said, for 10 years, and it just
drives me crazy having that
fallow ground sit up there and
you're spraying, you know, three
to four applications of Roundup
or other harsh chemicals a year.
There's no living roots in the
soil during that period. Yeah,
wasteland. And then come August,
when it's the hottest, hottest
part of the year, we're praying
that we've got moisture left
over to. Had a crop in the
ground, and it would always just
give me heartache at night. So I
was lucky. Counter intuitive,
there's just nothing growing out
there, so it's just a dead a
dead, massive soil. And so I was
lucky enough to get about half
of my less desirable ground into
the sage grouse program through
NRCS equip program, and that
left me with about 1500 acres,
and I didn't want to follow 750
and and harvest 750 so I got
this bright idea, why don't we
just continuous crop every acre
every year, and we'll try some
different crops so we can get
some diversity in the soil. And
this will be my first full year
doing that. 100% I've been kind
of playing with it. But you
know, last year here in
Waterville area, we had no rain
after we planted our spring
wheat, and it still yielded 20
bushel the acre. Now we live in
a 40 bushel the acre average
winter wheat area, so to me, not
having that herbicide expense to
fallow. It's a no brainer. I
don't Yeah, right. Honestly, the
herbicides, my chem fallow
expense has been my highest
expense annually. Easily, it's
about way above everything else.
Now, Aaron, for our listeners,
because there's probably people
out there that, you know, I when
I think about who our listeners
are, I'd say there's a there's a
percentage that are farmers, but
far more are people who are
interested in learning more
about regenerative agriculture,
and they're coming from other
industries or from other
verticals outside of actual
farming. Could you explain a
little bit about, you know, what
your farming experience has
been, and you know, like, a
little bit more about the crops
that you grow, and why this,
this concept of chem fallow,
like a what is chem fallow? We
know what it is, but I've heard
this from many people before who
attend conferences and stuff.
Nell Newman and I were talking
about this, and she came to our
artisan Inland Northwest artisan
grains conference a couple years
ago, and she said, chem fallow.
What is chem fallow? And why do
we do it? So I'm gonna have you
back up for a second and talk a
little bit about your farm, what
you farm, and this whole notion
of chemical fallow, like, what?
What is it, and why do farmers
do it? Yeah,
sure. I'll back up a little
farther and go to before chem
fallow, when we were doing
extensive tillage on the ground
to keep the weeds down and kind
of and hold the moisture. And
you know, there's still farmers
in my area, and I'm not saying
they're doing it wrong. It's
because it works. It's just, I
think there's a better way. But
they're going out 678, times,
and tilling the ground. And
every time you pull steel
through that ground, you're
releasing carbon in the air.
You're burning diesel. Yes, you
are killing weeds that way. And
yes, you are. You know, setting
sort of a moisture line that you
pretty much will last all
summer. So you have, you're
preserving moisture that way,
but you're also letting it go,
you know, to a certain depth,
and
a lot of soil erosion. I mean, I
know when I drive around during
tilling season, there are,
there's like epic dust storms
that are kind of starting to
develop
the water every spring. Yeah,
there's ditches in these fields
because there's just not there
to hold all that moisture. So it
runs, it cuts ditches and and
guys, just till I'm in and I
think if you know, there's a
creek right by my house. And
every time we get a
thunderstorm, it is brown as can
be, all that soil is just
washing down into the Columbia
River. Yeah, so when we started
doing direct seed, we, I guess
the idea was that, the original
idea was for erosion. But, you
know, there's, it's not all
that. It's not, it's not all
great because we're, we're going
out in the spring and applying
about 20 ounces of Roundup,
glyphosate and probably another
broadleaf chemical like 240 or
Banville. And every 30 days,
we're doing the same thing, but
we're upping our dose every
single time we spray. Yeah, that
to the point of, you know,
probably an import of Roundup
and and so we were putting on,
you know, terrifying, really,
total about three quarts of
Roundup per acre, along with
some other chemicals and
surfactants that are bad for the
soil. It's interesting at the
farm and food symposium are you
didn't go to the Advanced soil
health day, but I did, and it
came out there that the World
Health Organization has declared
that Roundup, or glyphosate,
they recognize it as a
carcinogen, and so I would
imagine that the roundup usage
in the United States will start
being jeopardized. So I. After
four applications of Roundup and
heavier doses every time, on the
dry, old soil. Now we're
expecting an auger, hoping in
August we have moisture to see
the crop and and it for me, it
was about 5050, sometimes we
didn't.
It's a real crap shoot with
moisture in August, in the
Inland Northwest, so bone dry
and so dang hot. Um, I mean, for
the for folks who are listening,
who aren't from around here, you
think of the Pacific Northwest,
and you think, like, lush, like
Seattle, Portland, rainy all the
time. But where you guys are,
you're truly in the rain shadow
of the Cascades. And you're in
the rain shadow of, like, the
really high part of the
Cascades, like Northern Cascades
National Park, which is, like,
it's, like, Glacier. It's huge.
Yeah, be the mountains from
our fields. They're right there,
yeah, causing that moist air to
blow right over the top of us
and land in clic city and East
Exactly. Yeah. So, you know,
it's, it's interesting to think
of, like, all those chemicals
being put on the ground. Also,
because we know that water
drives biology, biology is what
breaks down those chemical
residues. And so being in a
really arid area, you're you're
at much higher risk of
accumulating kind of just
residues of a lot of these
chemicals, just because they're
not breaking down as fast.
That's what I've always
hypothesized. So, yeah, it's So
what made you think like, one
day Owen's like, or, you know,
like, Hey, I'm kind of tired of
this, like, I want to do
something different. What was
that moment all about? For you,
talking no fall terms, when we,
when we buy all of our chemical
in the spring and summer, and,
yeah, finally pay that bill and
October, it's really eye
opening, yeah. And not only
that, you know, it's the fact
that in the fallow years,
there's just nothing growing out
there. I mean, they, the
principles of soil health tell
you that you have to have a
living root out there is often
all the time, which isn't really
realistic in our area. But we
aren't by going to an often as
possible, as often as possible,
and by going to an annual
cropping situation, I'll go out
there in the spring and put a
light rate, around, up, down,
you know, 12 ounces. And I think
I could even cut that out with
some different chemistries. Just
need to look at how they
actually affect soil health. But
if I put a light rate, say, 12
ounces, round up down in the
spring and clean that ground up,
because you want to start with a
clean slate. With a clean slate
every time. And seed our seed
our crops. I mean, it's about a
70% reduceage in glyphosate for
our farm, which is huge,
huge. 70% reduction is a big
deal. That's a
really big deal. The biggest
problem in the spring is grassy
weeds. And so I think if we
there's a we there's a, you
know, there's, there's grass
herbicides that are a little
safer, that break down in
sunlight, like we might be able
to use instead, and which, if we
can do that, we'd cut out our
glyphosate 100% now, I'm not
ready to do that full scale yet,
but it's a thought I had, yeah,
and who knows what the, you
know, potential externalities
are of those other chemicals? A
lot of times we just don't know.
But I know a lot of farmers are
really like, in that delicate
fine line of like, we want to
reduce our chemicals like, as
much as possible for so many
reasons, but we still can't
sacrifice huge amounts of loss
of productivity because you're
fighting the weeds so hard. And
I I work with a lot of organic
farmers in the region because of
my work as the value chain
coordinator for our Montana
gluten free project, and it's a
USDA grant funded project, and
we're working with organic
farmers throughout the region,
and we have a processing
facility in Belgrade, Montana,
and I have been really shocked,
actually, to hear how intense
the weed pressure is. And I feel
for these farmers, because a few
of them have, have, you know,
admitted that they're worried
that they won't be able to keep
their organic certification,
because the weeds are just
getting so bad that they're at a
point of, like, they don't know
what else to do. They're like,
losing the battle. And so I
think we need to talk more about
this, like, happy medium of
chemical use, like, because we
can't just, like, stop feeding
the world and not have food, but
then we want to reduce the
chemical usage. And at the end
of the day, if we really get
real about soil health and
repairing the soil and making
sure we have the healthiest
beginning ecosystem to start
with, it seems like the weed
pressure and the disease
pressure starts to correct
itself better, like you don't
have as deeply endemic weed
problems sometimes. Is that what
you see? Yeah,
and one, I think one way, you
know, if we wanted to go
organic, the way we would have
to do that, is add some tillage
in the spring. And you know,
tillage is the one thing we want
to get away from, because it
kills your soil. I don't know
what's worse, a little bit of
Roundup or a little bit of
tillage, but if we did a little
bit of tillage, we would be
cutting out our chemical now,
another common practice in our
area is after the wheat
established is to hit it with a
broad leaf to kill any broadleaf
weeds, your mustard, your
thistles. Are growing out there.
And we're going to play around
this year with some companion
cropping. Now, if you look at a
cover crop that's got different
varieties species out there,
grasses, broad leaves, you
really don't see any thistle.
This was our biggest problem,
thistles and mustard. You really
don't see any of that out. I
think what happens is, is in a
monoculture situation, your
biology say we're planting
wheat, and the biology needs
diversity in the soil so it it
has a seed bank available
sitting there. We all got piles
of weed seeds in our fields,
just from things rolling across
and blowing across. And so that
biology says, Hey, there's a
thistle plant here, or a seed.
Let's plant that so we can get a
broadleaf plant. I think if we
do some companion cropping,
which we're gonna small scale
play with this year, we're
planting a planting our wheat,
for example, and a broad leaf,
maybe a clover or something like
that, a lamp, I don't know,
something we wouldn't even take
to harvest. So we're providing
that soil with a broad leaf and
a grass so it's got diversity. I
I'm, I'm really hoping that we
can eliminate our weeds from
growing. Yeah,
that is such a provocative
concept to me, that it's like,
by being intentional about the
ecosystem community that is in
the field, that that actually
signals and regulates the
ability of certain weeds to
become a pressure like thistles.
And I've yet to read the book
when weeds talk is, I think
that's what it's called. You
read that? No, yeah, I've seen
excerpts from it. I've heard
many people like quote things
from it. So, oh, and you and I
are going to have to have our
own little book club this
winter. That'd be great that,
because I saw my list of things
that I just really want to, I
want to dig through, because I
find that to be such a cool
concept that, you know, the the
allelopathy, or the plant today,
it's or whatever happens in the
biology that helps to regulate
the the presence or absence of
the other crop, the other plants
that grow in the field. Like, if
we can really start to
understand that, which I know
that there are people out there
who are working very hard to
understand that, um, that's,
that's, like, a kind of a
revolutionary concept. And so,
like you just said, planting a
broad leaf poly species mix with
your wheat or whatever, suddenly
you've you've accomplished weed
control without tillage or
chemicals, and you're using
chemicals that are naturally
present in the plants that are
planted there. Yeah, absolutely
what that means. We observe, you
know, what happens in our
fields, and we do some cover
cropping. And like I said, when
we see a cover crop out there
that's got a good stand and
healthy and a diverse mix of
species, you don't see weeds. So
it makes sense that when you're
doing a monoculture crop like
wheat, why there would be weeds
out there? Yeah, you know, you
got this one plant competing
against itself for all the same
stuff that biology is pretty
smart, and when it has of seeds
available that are going to
fulfill a need, it'll take that
thistle or that mustard or that
Kosha or whatever, that strictly
lettuce, and get it going so it
can satisfy what It needs. Yeah,
yeah. It's so fascinating. Now,
you know, if you're going for
another crop, like a clover or a
legume of some sort, now you're
going to get some other nitrogen
fixation too. Would that help
change your nitrogen
applications? Or would that be
like for the following season?
Well, Johnny, since we are, we
are, I guess you can say now
we're 100% regenerative. We are
not putting any fertilizer in
the ground.
Oh, yeah, let's unpack that,
because that is a cool concept,
like, let's, let's take a minute
to Could you tell our listeners
what that means and how how this
works from your perspective?
Well,
we're lucky enough to have a
good soil health agronomist on
our side. Mike Nestor was
throwing out a geronto me, yeah,
and I so when we go to these
conferences, I he's taking
notes, and I really don't,
because it's just important for
me to understand the concept,
and I need him to understand the
1000 foot level. You know,
what's really going on with the
soil, but we've the soil biology
will provide the plant with what
it needs to survive. So my 20
Bucha spring weight last year
had no no synthetic fertilizers.
All we did was we put some
organic rock phosphate, which is
mostly calcium, in the ground,
because I have hard soils, and
we're trying to break those up
so we can get some oxygen in
there, so the biology can thrive
more, yeah,
and he was a huge part of that,
absolutely.
And he puts together a, it's a
extract made from worm castings
to get the biology really
moving. And that's all we put. I
put that in furrow with the
seed. And. And the rock
phosphate also, and that's all I
do. Wow.
So no outside fertilizers at
all.
Now, you know, Doug's still
doing some winter wheat, and so
he will top dress his wheat with
with fertilizer, but with the
spring wheat, you know, we're
not going to yield that high
with it anyway, and I'm not
going to put any more into it.
In fact, our spring weight this
year, the 20 Bucha crop, which
it all went about 20, it had
about a 12 and a half percent
protein level. And so without
adding nitrogen, that's actually
impressive.
So you learn with soft white
wheat, the Ideal Protein level
is about 10 and a half percent.
And so a higher protein level
means it had enough nitrogen for
a higher yield. It just didn't
have the water, yeah, so at 12
and a half percent, we had more
nitrogen than we needed, yeah,
had you had a little
bit of water, it probably would
have pushed that nitrogen level
down a little bit. It's so
interesting how that protein and
water availability are inversely
related in so many crops,
yep, and yield and so we had, we
had what we needed for more
yield, just, just not water,
yeah, no nitrogen applied, we
had more than, more than we
needed.
What did the test weights on
that wheat turn out like
it was all number it was all
number one wheat, right at 6061,
62 pounds, actually. So it was
good. It didn't suffer any from
not having synthetics in the
soil. And I don't know, and
we're playing with other crops,
you know, we're doing sorghum
and millet, and we haven't been
fertilizing those. And I our
sorghum didn't work out that
well this year because we
planted too late. It froze
before it can before it can make
a seed. But the MEL worked out
pretty good. And it was it was
harvested this in October, and
it had a great stand. Where it
was good, you know, where it had
a great stand. Other areas it
just dried out this summer, but
none of that was fertilized
commercially or, you know, with
how's that affect your
profitability? I mean, that's a
big deal when you're not
purchasing a bunch of extra, you
know, inputs.
Well, it helps a lot. You know,
the worm castings and the rock
phosphate aren't free, yeah,
yeah. They are starting to save
our own seed. I think that that
seed grown in our own soil, when
it comes out, it's, it's, it's
changed a little bit to adapt to
the environment it was grown in.
So I, you know, I think there's
something to that sort we're
gonna start with having our own
seed. We're gonna eliminate that
expense. And the The hope is,
once our soil health is better,
and we have a little bit our
soil is not as compact. It's
broken up a little bit where
oxygen can get down in there.
It's got more structure that we
will have to that we will be
able to reduce
infiltration of water too, I'm
sure, absolutely, and that we'll
be able to reduce or eliminate
these inputs that we are using
incredible. Let's
go back to this continuous
cropping then. So, you know,
we've, we've just kind of
experienced your trajectory, and
like, you know, the kind of
farming you had been doing, and
this, this, this journey that
you guys have made to being in
this regenerative zone, so
you're now going into continuous
cropping. And how is that going
to affect your need to use
chemicals like herbicides during
the rest of your growing season?
Well, we're back to this
companion cropping thing. If
this works, then that it's going
to be great. Yeah. You know,
last year I did spray 240 hertz,
you know, some broadleaf
herbicide on the spring wheat.
If we can get away from that,
that's going to be great. Yeah,
yeah.
Every time we can get rid of a
chemical, in my mind, that's a
big deal, because it's just, we
don't know. I look at it like a
nurse, you know, I'm like, every
time we can get, not give a
patient a chemical and then
impact their health. Like,
that's the gold standard, you
know. And absolutely, when you
need the chemicals in this
emergency, or you absolutely
need them, you've, you've, like,
you know, you really need it.
It's not just indiscriminate use
or it's very conditioned
a lot in this it does. I
see crazy stuff out there, these
chemical
companies that are pushing their
products. They're very good
salesmen, and they've got for
forever. They've they've made
people believe they have to use
their products. I would like to
get to a point where we're only
using those, you know,
chemistry, when we really,
really have to, because I
wanted, I would much rather rely
on the biology of the soil to
correct these, these issues that
we have. Yeah,
like Keith mortar always says,
um, it's fun, because I, I loved
this quote, and I was doing an
interview with him, and so I put
it on some some stuff. It said,
Well, do you want to be a slave
to the chemical company, or do
you want to be a. Slave to the
soil he's like, I'd rather be a
slave to soil biology all day
long. And I just thought that
was, like, a great quote, you
know, because he's like, look,
we're gonna have to be working
with something like, you gotta,
you've gotta choose,
and that means we have to do
something to to help that soil
biology along, to, yeah,
feed it. I mean, the plants are
also farmers and people often
forget that that plants are
farmers too, and that they're
dedicating a huge portion of
their sugars and metabolites to
the soil to nurture the
microbiome of the soil so that
it provides the best food for
them. And in conventional
systems, we've kind of like we
kind of have assumed that plants
operate in a vacuum, so that if
we just sterilize the soil and
then give them exactly what they
need, they'll just grow and
flourish. But what we've found
is that they're high
susceptibility of disease and
pests and don't produce this
high quality food. And I would
imagine that with what what you
and Doug are doing up there you
and Douglas, it's, you know,
it'd be great to do some
nutrient density testing, if you
guys haven't already, and see
where you're at compared to
other conventional commodities.
Yeah, you know, at the farm and
food symposium is when they they
kind of told us that nutrient
density in foods doesn't depend
on organic or conventional or
all these other kinds of
farming. It depends on soil
health. Healthy soil produces
nutrient dense food. No, I'm not
sure how we would measure that
ourselves, but I know there's
something to that. Yeah,
absolutely. And then the other
thing, I'm sorry, Johnny, one of
the other things, go ahead. It's
fascinates me that kind of, you
know, it turn the light bulb on
for me is this whole rhizophage
thing, and how this, the roots
interact with the microbes in
the soil for to get nutrients.
And when we put synthetic
fertilizers in the ground, it
shuts off that cycle.
You know, the last guests I had
on the podcast were our friends
from Tania biologicals, and
Bruce and Dennis, and we talked
a lot about rhizophage and that
whole feedback system. So, like,
I'd love to actually hear a
little bit more from you about
that. And like, what you've
seen, I know that's like, it's
there. I mean, they take it to,
like, really fun, super nerd
level, which I might do that for
you. I'll send you the link. It
is probably one of my favorite
podcasts I've ever recorded,
because you know how it is with
those guys. You get them going,
and it's, like, just incredible.
But like this whole concept of
like that that we've
underappreciated how the use of
chemicals shut down the plants
innate natural abilities to
regulate their own nutrition and
their own environment. And a lot
of the time when I'm when I'm
talking to farmers that have
gone down a regenerative
management pathway, that's one
of the more beautiful takeaways,
is that they they're like, we're
actually allowing the plants to
actually take care of themselves
better by getting out of the
way.
Well, you look at the pasture
ground around, it's never been
fertilized, and the plants are
pretty healthy. Yeah, right.
There's something to it, yeah.
Another thing we're not doing
anymore is putting seed
treatment, on our seed factor,
inoculating it with the worm
casing.
That's a hot topic, the seed
seed treatment. And you were
using everything synthetic in
the soil. That's, that's the
Yeah,
yeah, that's the goal. So, you
know, with your continuous
cropping, you mentioned that
you're doing that this year, and
what, what kind of crops are you
looking at? We've talked about
sorghum and millet, which, if
you know me, you know, I get
excited about sorghum and
millet, wheat. What other crops
do you grow up there?
Just to note on the sorghum, I'm
not going to say we've been
successful on sorghum yet. You
know, the first, yeah, first
year we grew it. Never dried out
enough to harvest it. I mean,
he's harvestable, just not
enough to store it. So I let sit
all winter. And then we got
lucky in March this year and had
a worm spill, and I went out and
harvested and it worked out
great. I kind of had heartache
leaving it out over the winter,
but if that's what we do, and
then this year, you know, we got
hooked up with Larry Richardson,
he recommended that we seed it
later. So the first basket in
May 17. And then this year we
see it May or June 7. Yeah,
about the time it was setting
ahead in the a colonel in the
head. It froze. So,
so frustrating. And we had a
like, a odd summer in our part
of the world, like August was
cool and wet, in which it
normally isn't. Did you
experience that
that didn't even throw ahead
because it was so dry?
Wow, no kidding. So
our solution is seed earlier.
Get the plant established. If it
freezes out, then it freezes
out. I would rather have it
freeze out early than late. At
least if we freaked out early,
we can come in there or
something else, or even if we
have to follow it, we follow it,
or put a cover out there, or
something like that. Yeah.
No, that makes a lot of sense.
And what other crops are you?
Oh, sorry, go
ahead. No, the challenge is the
markets, finding a market for
these crops. Oh,
as you and I know, well, we
have, I have spent 10 years.
Trying to grow markets for
sorghum and millet, and there
has been no help. Um, like,
literally every invest, almost
every investor in the world,
except for ones that are in the
sorghum industry, literally pat
you on the back. And they're
like, God, this is such
important work. Good luck with
that. And I'm like, Okay, so
we're expected to build markets
for novel, underutilized crops
and have no marketing budget and
no help and little
infrastructure. Like, it's
ridiculous, and it's been, it's
been a real lesson to me,
because it's like, you know, the
UN invited me to speak about
this topic, but I can't get
anybody in North America excited
enough to, like, blend, you
know, to lean in, like
retailers.
Don't you think, though there's,
there's just too much money in
the way things are right now? I
guess so. But you'd think that,
like the whole foods and the
sprouts and like those more
influential natural products,
channels would want to lean in,
but I have found them to be very
resistant to the messaging. And
I'm like, you guys, you're
getting behind regenerative but
regenerative corn, wheat and
rice, is not going to solve
things. No, we actually need
diversity in order to
regenerate. And a diversity in
the field is driven by diversity
on the plate, because that's
what drives the market. And if
they expect farmers to invest in
all the crop diversity while
only supporting markets for
Regenerative wheat and rice and
corn, then they're setting you
guys up for failure. And I
actually kind of hold them
responsible for it. I've really
taken them to task lately
because I'm tired of it. I'm
really tired of them ignoring
people like us and leaving us
out to dry and being you know,
when you're the bleeding tip of
the spear and you're leading the
way, it's like you're already at
risk. And then the fact that
they don't offer any support
just adds adds to it. So
and I think the the conventional
wisdom is that we need to have
mass produced food in order to
feed the world, even though
there's, there doesn't, it's not
a nutrient dense product. It's,
yes, it does feed the world, but
people look how many people are
sick in the world too. Yeah,
you know exactly, calories and
health do not necessarily, um,
correlate in a perfect in a
perfect manner. Um, like the
United States is just a perfect
example of excess calories with
still having gross micronutrient
deficiencies, yeah, and, you
know, and that just drives over
eating, because the body still
thinks it's starving. So, you
know, we really got long lines.
We've really got to work on
that. Yeah, we've really got to
work on that, and we'll continue
to, of course. I mean, you know,
you know, you know me, but it's,
it's been frustrating because
I've, I've heard loud and clear.
Now, working with the farm smart
and bio farming group since I
think 2018 like that, that that
was the biggest deal was we had
to drive market development for
diverse crops. And we, I feel
like we haven't made any
headway. Unfortunately.
Oh, I think, I think you've made
headway. Joni, well, it doesn't
feel that way,
but thank you. It's good to know
at least people are talking
about it. But we'll, you know,
we'll keep pushing. Yeah, I
think education and people being
aware of what, what really
happens is, is a big thing. I
think if they know that,
they're, you know, if they had a
choice at a grocery store to buy
nutrient dense flour or any any
food, carrots versus something
that's mass produced on a farm
that full of pesticides and
chemicals that they're going to
go with, the more healthy one,
it
just feels like the flavor is
better too. Absolutely,
absolutely, yeah, the flavor is
better. So, you know, we'll keep
working, but boy, you know, we
sure have a long ways to go. But
I love talking to farmers like
you and Douglas and many of the
others that are in this bio
farming and farm smart group.
It's really incredible, because
you guys are proving that it can
be done. And, you know, I've
often sat down with Ty and and
I'm like, gosh, we need to,
like, get some updated numbers
so we can say, hey, as a cohort,
this many 10s of 1000s, well
potentially over 100,000 150,000
acres. Do you include bio
farming, farm smart like the
whole group. You know that you
guys as a group have reduced use
of chemicals by x like those are
like some really influential
statistics, especially when you
start thinking about runoff into
the Columbia effects on
downstream communities, like
effects on our health, of
course, but building soil, I
mean, it's really cool to look
at building soil per acre, but
when you look at building soil
per 100,000 acres, like suddenly
it's, it's a really provocative
argument.
It is, it is a little bit
discouraging as a producer, when
we are, you know, doing these
practices, and then we just get
our wheat mixed in with
everybody else's Exactly,
yep, off to the local silo. But
as is Deanna Lewinsky says she's
like, well, at least we're
adding some valuable nutrition
to the pool. Well, she's a
commodities, I know, and I'm
always like, Tiana, that just
crushes me to hear that like,
but yes, you're. Right? However,
I would love to see, and what
I'm working on now, as you know,
is, you know, really trying to
find bigger markets where we
have at scale purchasers that
want to make a commitment to
supporting an at scale
regenerative program across the
region, like you guys and and
say, let's, let's do this. Let's
commit to buying this wheat.
Let's commit to buying this
sorghum. Let's actually move the
needle. And let's, let's become
part of the story of
regeneration, instead of an
outside participant, which for
too long, I think a lot of the
market kind of feels like it's
an outside participant, not
realizing that they're actually
driving the manifestation of
what happens at the field level.
They just don't think that they
do. It's a radical disconnect.
So if we can mend that
connection, and we can really
empower the purchasers to
realize that they are actually,
you know, contributing to the
destiny at the field level,
that's a really powerful
position, and they need to step
it up and make sure that they're
contributing. To what needs to
happen, so that we're repairing
soil and and growing better
food. So Well, it'd be
interesting to see with the new
Trump administration, with RFK
in there, because he's touting,
yeah, doing things like this. So
it'll be interesting to see if
there's anything to it.
Yeah, exactly. We're it's kind
of a watch and wait. I think
right now everybody's like
waiting to see what happens with
this incoming cabinet and all of
these folks in positions that
will influence policy, and
that's a whole nother
conversation for another day.
But you know, when we do need to
get policy and insurance and
everything also aligned with
regenerating our soil, and
that's another big barrier that
we'll have to solve that on the
next podcast, right? Aaron,
yeah,
and that is, that is one issue
is the insurance, you know, our
sorghum and not insurable. And
so when we have here like this,
where it freezes out and we get
nothing out of it, that's a
little discouraging. I mean, you
get crop rotation and all that
kind of stuff. Yeah, at the same
time, if I was plant wheat, I
would have got some money on the
deal. Well, that's the whole
thing. We do need to, we've got
to get some policy people behind
adding these diverse crops to
the insurance crop programs.
Some farmers hate the idea.
Other farmers love it. So I've
not figured out exactly what the
best approach is, but I don't
want, I think it's something
we've got to do. I don't
want to have to rely on crop
insurance. But you know when,
when commodity prices are
depressed, like they are this
year and have been, yeah, nice
to get something out of it if it
fails Absolutely.
Yeah. Now I agree with you 100%
so, Aaron, I hope that this
conversation, it will be
insightful to people. I feel
like we need to have more
conversations with farmers like
you that are just out there
learning every season and trying
to optimize and your farm and
how many, how many total acres
again, are you farming?
Well, I farm about 4000 about
but I'm down to about 1500 acres
of actual farm ground that's not
in program right now, yeah,
yeah, the rest of it is in
conservation programs, whether
it be CRP or sage grouse
habitat,
sure, sure. Well, it's been
awesome. So thank you for taking
time out of your day to join us
and share your experiences with
us, and for folks who want to
maybe follow up if and ask you
questions, like, how can people
get a hold of you? Are you on
social media somewhere where
they can send you a message? Or
what's, what's the best way to
get in touch with you?
Oh, anyway, Joan, you can get
people my phone number. I'm on
social media under O and V
Brock, under Facebook.
Yeah, okay, whatever. They can
always message messenger you
that way, or, or
I've given you permission to.
Okay, cool. Yeah. Listeners,
if anybody wants to reach out
and talk to Owen, I am happy to
pass along his information so
you guys can swap notes and
continue to learn every season,
and eventually, we're going to
make this regenerative thing the
new norm so our kids have better
food and a better environment.
So thanks for sure. Yeah,
absolutely. So you know, if
you're if you're out there
listening and you enjoyed this
session, please take a minute to
share it with your friends.
Share it with your community.
Definitely leave a review if
you're on the Apple I on the
Apple podcasting app allows you
to leave reviews, and let's just
continue doing this great work
and supporting the farmers that
are leading the charge, and
thank you so much for listening.
Thank you, Johnny for all your
work. Yeah, you're welcome.
Have a good one. You too. This
episode of the regenerative by
design podcast is brought to you
by snack device nation elevating
climate smart crops and
regenerative supply chains
through innovative products and
transparent market development.
Thank
you for joining me on the
regenerative by design podcast.
Please take a moment to review
our channel on your favorite
podcasting service and share
this session with your friends
and colleagues via LinkedIn,
Twitter, Instagram, Facebook or
wherever you connect with your
community. You.