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The Grateful for Hospitality Podcast features candid conversations with founders, operators, and experts shaping the sector. Practical insights, honest stories and ideas to make you think.
It takes quite a strong leader to sort of say, yeah, we are a people first culture, hand on heart, and actually mean it.
Mason:Retention has been a problem for forever, I'm guessing, or for a long period of time. Yeah. Why do you think that still is?
Jo:I have a thing at the moment about not all retention is good. The labor market at the moment, we've shifted back into an employer market. You know, you put a job application out, there was no shortage of people that want a job now. Mhmm. But what are we doing about the people in the business already and helping them move their way through the organization?
Jo:The thing I hear about most is we don't have time. Managers are like, oh, we don't have time to sit down and have a conversation with our people. And I'm like, what what? How how can you not? But at the end of the day, people need to come to work to do a good job.
Jo:Yeah. And I think most people do want to do a good job. I think where organizations fall down is that they don't know what good looks like.
Mason:I'm Mason from Grateful. We're sitting down on the Grateful for Hospitality podcast. I'm about to sit down with Joe Harley, the founder of Korero, talking about her rise through hospitality, the story of getting her own license at the age of 25, then going into Bacardi to fund sales in the heydays, then moving into career conversations, talking about the power that people have in the hospitality industry, the importance of feeling valued, and ultimately what's going on with recognition in 2026. Tune in. We touched upon it earlier.
Mason:Like, how did you how did you end up having a license for your pub?
Jo:Well, so I suppose I didn't really know ever what I wanted to do. And you know, I was a bit sort of average at school and stuff. And I went to university, I went to Loughborough.
Mason:Right.
Jo:And I did recreation management, which is a really weird non degree, but basically I was quite sporty.
Mason:I was gonna say d sport,
Jo:most people
Mason:would do
Jo:sports in love, bro. Either sports or engineering, and I definitely wasn't doing engineering. Yeah. But I wrecked my knee, I wrecked my anterior cruciate ligament. And so I was going there, one of the reasons I was going there was to play netball and to, yeah, to do the practical side of PE sport science.
Jo:But because I did that, I couldn't. So recreation management was purely theory, but it still sat in the Peace Sport Science department. And in between my second and third year, I went out to Greece on holiday with one of my friends and just stayed for the summer
Mason:working I remember in me telling you actually, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jo:Saloon sixty nine, It was in the nineties. Things were a bit more, not as PC as they are now. I know. Yeah, you would not get away with some of the stuff that happened in those bars in those days, I'll tell you that right now. Yeah, I mean tipping there was a different story.
Jo:Yeah, I know of course, yeah. But you know, I earned my fair share, it was fine and I did that and I did it again after I graduated. And I came home, my mom and dad had moved house and I moved back in with them. And my mom was like, that's it, no more money. You know, you need to go and get yourself a job now.
Jo:And I was like, well, I'm a graduate, I shall get a graduate job. Which is easier said than done when you've been messing around in Greece and all all the graduate jobs have gone. And she made me walk down to the job center in Camberley where they were living, and there was a job center on one side of the road and there was a pub on the other, And I looked at both and thought that looks more fun. Walked in, asked if they had any jobs, they did. I started that night and I was in Greece, we were working on commission, right?
Jo:So behind the bar, working on commission and working for tips. So we were, I could serve three, four people at the same time, but I was using my hands to get ice and put it in drinks.
Mason:Yeah, of course.
Jo:And you know, at some points I had to, don't tell my kids, I had a fag in one hand, a drink in the other, slice of pizza. You're up on the bar dancing, you're down, you know, And reaching so, but I got behind the bar, but I was there, it was a Thursday night, was DJ, DJ night, was busy. It was two or three deep at the bar and I was serving two or three people at a time. And all the other people, all the other staff, they were just standing there like, all right, let the new girl go because it didn't mean anything to them. You know, they were just coming in, working, going home.
Jo:Yep. Whereas I was like, well, know, come on, where's
Mason:the
Jo:Work
Mason:your room,
Jo:talk Yeah, what's going on? And then I was offered a graduate position at then it was Allied Mec and I worked for old, old school landlord, landlady. I mean, they were like sort of the earth, sit at the end of the bar, literally brandy, fag watching him and I did massive Alsatian in the pub that used to sort of Yeah, exactly. And I was like, oh my god, you know, I'm this little blonde thing. How am I supposed to tell people like this how to run their businesses?
Jo:I wanna do it myself first. And so I started working towards that. Right. And, yeah, so by '25, had a license and was running the King of Wessex in Basingstoke.
Mason:Wow.
Jo:I mean, that's not the
Mason:Twenty five minutes of your
Jo:own license is impressive. Good. I mean, I was earning $13 a year and thought I was made because I we were living in and I was getting up at six and not going to bed till midnight. But yeah, I loved it.
Mason:Loved that also.
Jo:I really loved it. Yeah. And I think it the people that came in, they were proper regulars. And in my first pub as well, I was telling someone this the other day that you really had to remember stuff then like till the point of sale wasn't as sophisticated. And we used to have to remember, I remember being part of the one hundred club which was remembering a 100 people and what they drunk.
Jo:So you remember their name and what they drunk. So someone would walk in and you'd have their drink ready for them by the time they got to the bar because it was such like a locals place. Yeah. So, yeah, was fun. Meat raffle on Sunday, stellar Sundays.
Jo:They were messy.
Mason:And what period of time was that over like from like choosing to go left or right into the pub and then getting to that point like how?
Jo:About three years, I think. From yeah. Two to three years. I I started doing relief shifts. I would look after the pub when they were away, lived in, and would go off and do I remember when
Mason:You lived in their pub?
Jo:Yeah. I lived in their pub and lived in a mine, and we would go and do relief shifts. So I did a couple of relief shifts at other places just to get the training, just to understand what it's like. To be fair, my dad, when I came back and said, I'm gonna run-in pub, my dad literally rolled his eyes and said, you'll get bored. And I did.
Jo:Right. So at that time, Allied Demec were being bought by Punch Group and I decided that I wanted to go less in towards the area management side and more into the learning and development side. But that amalgamation meant that there were jobs being lost at head office. I would've had to move. And so I went and worked for Bacardi Martini doing sales and marketing where I lived with two girls in a flat in London when Bacardi Breeza just took off.
Mason:It was Yeah. Yeah.
Jo:Crazy. We had a boss called Danny, and we had to plug our laptops into the wall every night to tell you know, make sure we'd made seven effective cords calls and Yeah. Yeah. Making sure we had, you know, double optics up on the Bacardi and breezes in the fridges. And we used to ring up Danny.
Jo:It was three of us. We covered a lot of London between us. He'd be like, hi, Danny. He'd be like, hi. I mean, it was so cliche.
Jo:But again, we had a really good time. But again, no real progression. There was nobody that really sort of took a massive interest in me. I'm generation X. If somebody is nice to me, I will probably stay and work there forever.
Jo:And I saw an advert in the back of the catering magazine because there were no online shop ads in those days. I am so. And it was a woman called Jane who'd started a business to help businesses retain their talented people. She'd run a recruitment business for fifteen years. Before that, she'd run hotels, food service.
Jo:And yeah, and so I started working with her and that was in 2001 and the rest is history, twenty six years later. And I was still helping organizations to retain their talented people. So I have a thing at the moment about not all retention is good In the market, the labor market at the moment, we've shifted back into an employer market. So Right. There's no, you know, you put a job application out, there was no shortage of people that want a job now.
Jo:Mhmm. Do they have the right skills, capabilities, experience, you know, all the things that you you would want in your business, they have those things. That's getting people in the door, but what are we doing about the people in the business already and helping them move their way through the organization?
Mason:Yeah.
Jo:So, you know, that's that's what I've been doing for a really long time.
Mason:Yeah. So tell tell me about, like, what what does Korero do for those that, like, don't know the the thesis and the, I guess, the Yes. Idea behind the
Jo:Pereira is a tech platform and it's all about encouraging leaders at all levels to have really good conversations with people about their careers. Mhmm. We know that it's all very well engaging people. So engagement obviously is a hot topic. It didn't exist as a concept again when we started and we've gone through employee engagement, employee experience, the employee life cycle, sort of all the same thing really.
Jo:But I think there's a real, I suppose misunderstanding about what engagement is. And a lot of people think that what engagement is, is the score that you get when you do a survey once or twice a year. And that's a useful measure. It's a check on a sentiment of something that happens right now. But actually there's no correlation.
Jo:So Pineapple who do a report, I think most people I hope would have come across Pineapple Report. Lots of organizations within hospitality take part and submit their people data and we haven't been able to really prove it in the industry before but there is definite correlation between retention and profitability. But there's no correlation between an engagement score and retention. So it's mainly zero. If you wanna see more on that report, then drop Abby Dunn at Pineapple Align.
Jo:I'm sure she'll Mhmm. Send it to people if they want to see it.
Mason:Why why like, why do think that is? Because obviously when when people talk about people tools and things like that, they refer to engagement and then therefore, automatically that means retention. Like, what what do you think the mechanics are behind that that mean there's a bit bit of a disconnect?
Jo:I think there's a disconnect because people talk about engagement as a sentiment on the moment, and engagement is a temperature check. Right. Whereas what I like to talk about and what Carrero helps is embed people into an organization. So embedding is much, much harder than engagement in terms of it's around do people is there a fit? Like, do you have a real fit within the organization?
Jo:Do you get on with the team? Does the culture match? Does it provide you with what you need to feel like you belong? It's also about the links that you make, so the links with the team around you and the leader that you have and with the company yourself. And for people not to leave, it's like, what would I be sacrificing if I left?
Jo:And it's really quite difficult to embed people so you could have a highly engaged workforce. They're telling you that they're happy and it's fine and yeah, you know, I've had a great week this week and it's lovely and yeah, someone was nice to me and I, you know, this happened, I'm going on holiday next week, I'd be really engaged but that doesn't necessarily mean that they're embedded and embedding somebody into a business, really making them believe they belong is a lot, lot harder than sort of engagement on that surface level. It's all semantics really. Yeah. But it's about, for me, it's about giving people that sense of belonging.
Jo:So research that we did and that is backed up by your Blessing Mites and your Charles Watsons and your Deloitte's is that for people, what's important to people about coming to work is that they have values that match that of the organization, that they have inspirational leaders, that they have individualized development, that they can see a clear pathway to progression. And that the communication is adult, two way and transparent. And if you hit those five things, the money goes down the list. So we'll talk about, because obviously what you do.
Mason:Of course, yeah.
Jo:We talk about, you know, it's all very well me sitting here going, money doesn't matter, money matters a lot. Yeah. That's a base. If you think about hierarchy of needs, you know, it's one of the things that sits at the bottom of that for me. The basic things you have to get right is get people's pay right, get transparent, let people understand exactly what the transaction is from I'm doing this job, I'm getting rewarded in this way.
Jo:That's super, super important. You can't do my stuff unless you get that stuff right first.
Mason:Yeah. And I think a lot of people say like you need to just get the basics right. I think people really appreciate the basics. I think now, I don't know why, but the general sentiment is that it's just become the norm and they expected that all these things need to just be done as part of working in a professional work environment and then it's all the things on top of that.
Jo:It's still, like, in, you know, we do, we run the technology behind best places to work in hospitality and still getting paid correctly on time, it still comes up. You know, it's not a given for a lot of people and I think there's a lot of technology out there as well that makes it sound easier than it is to get it right. And I think it's a shame that there are some tech providers out there that do let their clients down and do let people down by not being really robust, really transparent, super fair, people just being able to understand exactly what, you know, what that transaction is meeting that contract.
Mason:Yeah. And obviously you've been interviewing hospitality teams and people for, you know, a long time and you've said recently I think that it's not really, what they want hasn't really changed
Jo:No.
Mason:Over the course of the whole period.
Jo:But No.
Mason:I guess why do you think operators still aren't hitting the mark, and why do think there's a a fundamental, like, retention problem? Because, you know, for the time that we've been in the industry as Grateful, retention has been a problem for forever, I'm guessing, or for a long period
Jo:of time.
Mason:Why do you think that that still is?
Jo:Because it's really hard and it's not something that can be done to somebody like creating the conditions for people to stay isn't easy. So when you say, okay, well we need to invest, you know, at a time where there's huge pressure to cut, to cut costs, cut labor, there's huge pressure to head office teams are shrinking at the moment, there's less resource to step back as an operator and say, but actually I'm really going to invest in developing people and providing great career pathways for them. I'm gonna let my managers have time out with every single person to have a really good conversation. You know, the thing I hear about most is we don't have time. You know, managers like, oh, we don't have time to sit down and have a conversation with our people.
Jo:And I'm like, what? How can you not? And you know, it's really hard. I sit in my little ivory tower in the Cotswolds, how lovely and telling people they should do this and I get it, operationally it's hard and it comes from the top. So if your pressure from the top is we need to cut costs, we need to make more, but great, you know, you're running a business, absolutely.
Jo:But what's happening six months down the line is you're not working to embed these people into the business that then won't leave and that will be more productive and will up performance. So it takes quite a strong leader to sort of say, yeah, we are a people first culture, hand on heart and actually mean it. I mean, the number of businesses out there in specialty hospitality, oh, it's all about people. No, it's not. You know,
Mason:Well, they say it is and then it ends up not being.
Jo:Yeah. Which in the first place, you know, that's completely goes against everything that we've just talked about in terms of trust because, you know, you can put something out there on your website. We work a lot with values based businesses and unless have, unless your values are backed up by really robust behaviors that then you measure and you reward if things go right and there are consequences if things go wrong, then, you know, there's no point in having them.
Mason:Yeah. The whole consequence and reward thing is like really interesting. Like how do you think businesses, it's not a linear answer and a black and white answer about getting it right or wrong. But so we have conversations like this all the time Yeah. With our customers about the the net effect of something not happening or something happening and, like, that that whole consequence piece.
Mason:Like, do you you encourage businesses to have conversations around consequence of stuff not going right as well as recognition for stuff going well? And like how do how do they manage it? How do they navigate it? Because legislation and discrimination, everything like that always becomes quite prevalent, doesn't it?
Jo:But It's contentious in post COVID certainly. I think there's a lot of fear with first time managers, inexperienced managers to have conversations around performance. I think there's a, there's a fear. Yeah, you're right. There's a fear that, oh, you know, am I gonna be accused of bullying this person?
Jo:Is this person gonna take it the wrong way? What happens if I do something that I think is right and it's not right? So there's this big fear about getting it wrong. And all I would say is that for us it's about expectation setting. So from the off, if you absolutely know this is what my job is, these are the things that I have to get done every day and these are the behaviors that are expected of me.
Jo:This is how I'm supposed to behave and these are my goals. These are things that I need to do to push to get ahead. If you can be really clear about that, it becomes non personal. It's very black and white. Did you turn up on time?
Jo:Yes or no? Yeah. Like it happened or it didn't happen. And if it didn't happen, we ask why. Yeah.
Jo:And we coach through it and we give opportunities. But at the end of the day, people need to come to work to do a good job. Yeah. And I think most people do want to do a good job. I think where organizations fall down is that they don't know what good looks like.
Jo:So a number of people I talk to and I say, oh, so what does good look like here? And they're like, oh, that's a really good question. It's like, well, yeah. So how are you And if your culture is the difference between the behaviors you reward and the behaviors you tolerate, then, you know, you have to understand what those behaviors are.
Mason:Yeah. It's interesting, isn't it? The question I'm gonna ask you is do you think businesses, especially in hospitality, but businesses just in general, need to do more prescreening in that interview process to be very upfront about this is the situation? Because when we're hiring somebody or when I'm interviewing somebody, I'm very clear about, look. It's not gonna be easy.
Mason:There's a lot that's at stake here. There's a lot that's gonna be required of you. It's gonna be long hours. It's gonna be stressful, but it's also very, very rewarding. And if you want this type of role, then, you know, thanks, but no thanks.
Jo:Mhmm.
Mason:People do walk away from it, they're like, look. All all due respect, that's fantastic, but we're not the place for you rather than trying to take everybody in and trying to convince everybody to come work for us. Yes. Do you think that that's what businesses are doing inadvertently, or or is there is there some screening and then the expectations aren't set properly and the reality of then joining is is different?
Jo:I mean, think it goes it goes throughout, you know, if you if you understand what what it is that you expect of someone and you're super clear about what the job role is and the behavior is, then that starts from even before they get to interview. That should be out there, this is what the job is. I think it was years ago now and I'm pretty sure it was Five Guys. I was judging an employer brand award and it was one of the best things I've ever seen. It still makes me think of it today.
Jo:There was a video and it was like people like cleaning and it almost their video to get people in was like, can you handle it? This is probably not the worst job, this is the hardest job you will ever have. Like are you obsessive about cleaning? Do you do stuff to their nth degree? And it was that real sort of, at the end I was like, yeah, can handle it.
Jo:I want Yeah, I'm really clean. But what it did was right from the outset, it was like for anybody who was like, oh, actually, I just want a bit of an easy life. People like, oh my god, don't go and work there. But for anyone who's up for a bit of a challenge, okay, now I know what that culture is about.
Mason:And then when you turn up, it's like, oh, well, we told you this. Absolutely. And from the very beginning.
Jo:Yeah. That's it. And and again, so important where a
Mason:lot of
Jo:people might fall down is that those sort of check ins through the sort of that first six months and especially now with the Employee Rights Act coming in and that sort of six month window that we've got to make sure that somebody is really right and that's a two way thing. You know, having check ins, like real proper check ins at week one, week four, week eight, week 12 and week 20 is another thing that Korero facilitates is, you know, it's so important step away from the day to day, you know, how are you feeling? What could we have done better? People haven't, you know, in those early days, people are seeing stuff with fresh eyes. You know, always somebody new will see stuff that could be better and could be changed that somebody that's been here for three years won't see because it's just how we do things now.
Jo:Yeah. So those, that first six months is so important. And it's so important to stop, take people off-site, sit down, have a really, really good chat with them about, you know, what's going well. And again, just rechecking in. Are you doing the job?
Jo:Are you living the values? You, you know, meeting
Mason:Bringing the
Jo:call. Yeah, Maybe. And fail fast. If somebody's not right, deal with it. Yeah.
Jo:That's the thing that I also see and giving managers the confidence to do that. So another thing that Korero does, we've just, we've beta testing it with some of our clients is a little, I must say a little coach alongside which is advising people on how to have the right conversations and the things to ask because I don't think people are necessarily developed and trained in how to have these great conversations. Often people in hospitality are promoted because they're really, really good with customers. They're really, really good with food prep. They're really, really good at what they do.
Jo:And that's a very different skill set from being really, really good at leading people.
Mason:Yeah. It's it's all around the point of when you talked earlier about like an employer's market. Yeah. And the more, I guess, corporate term that I hear and that we talk about sometimes is that managed versus unmanaged attrition in the workplace. Yeah.
Mason:And do you think that the industry needs to separate that out a little bit more and like actually focus on well who do we need to bring into the business and understand them and you know get rid of you know really really quickly if they're not right or is that something you have encouraged people to have conversation about as well?
Jo:Totally. Yeah. Not everybody is right for every place and that's okay. You know and you know often, you know, there's that conversation where you sit down with someone and go, look, are you happy here? And they'll be like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jo:And you'll like, okay but really.
Mason:Ask you again.
Jo:Let me give you some examples that are showing that actually probably this isn't the place that you've got the best chance of success. And certainly with people that have been, that I've worked with, that have been with us for quite a while. It's about, you know, how, if you can have conversations with people around what's your dream? Where do you want to get to? Because often in hospitality, it's not, I want to be a GM.
Jo:It's, I want to be on the West End stage or I'm an artist. And it's like, well, are there things that we can do here that could help you get to that point? You know, I love the question, what's your, you know, what's your ideal job? Or, you know, if you could Blue Sky Time, if you could have any job in the world, what would it be? What would yours be?
Jo:This. Is it? Yeah. Really? Genuinely?
Mason:Yeah. Well, when I was in my previous job, I was I I always wanted to run my own business and do something that's actually making or having a positive impact, but Yeah. Work with people I really enjoy working with. Yes. And, like, continue just have continued success, basically.
Mason:So have something in a text base because text are very interesting. Yeah. And that's why the hospitality industries work so well because it's so personable. It's everybody always wants to help each other. It's very collaborative, but it's so nice to see that we will think of a feature or something that we're bringing to the platform that will then come to fruition, you know, six months later.
Mason:Well, it's much quicker now because of AI and everything like that. You know? A couple of months. Yeah. And we're then getting feedback from our customers or from team members to say, oh, like, this has been really helpful.
Jo:It's really good.
Mason:It's just like it it it grows the fire.
Jo:Good. Yes. That is it is a good thing. There's very few people that I meet that say their current job, funnily enough, but it is usually business owners, actually. I shouldn't have been surprised about that.
Mason:Yeah. I mean, look. I mean, obviously, there's there's days where it's really, really difficult. Obviously. Yeah.
Mason:Swings around a bunch.
Jo:I mean yeah. Yes. Yeah.
Mason:Yeah. And especially in hospitality as well, it's you know, we we sometimes think it's difficult, but all the stuff that gets that has been and continues to be thrown at operators, it's it's tricky.
Jo:Yeah. It's enough.
Mason:And then when you talk about career conversations, if you're worrying about your p and l or your your kitchen's down or something's on fire, it's really I'm guessing it's really, really hard to prioritize those walks around the block with with one of the team when you've got a bar three people deep or you've not got anyone in the bar and you're really worried about, like, how is everyone gonna get paid at the end
Jo:of gonna get paid. Totally. And, I mean, and that exactly how you just put it there. That's why I am not sitting on an island right now, sipping a cocktail. Because it is, you know, the companies and like it has changed.
Jo:I have seen a shift more and more people are doing career conversations and have stopped calling them appraisals and stopped just doing it once a year and it is happening. And I think it has always happened. I think recording it is difficult, right? It's that sort of, you you say to a chef or a gym, they're like, yep, I'm having these conversations all the time. You're like, yes, you are.
Jo:But there comes a point when you get to the scale where actually it's really important to record them. So from a organizational perspective, we can start properly talent mapping, succession planning, looking at development, seeing ready when they're gonna, you know, what's gonna happen, but also just knowing that it is happening and that people are doing it. But I do get it. I have been on that side that, you know, taking the time out to speak to somebody isn't always the easiest thing in the world, but it pays off. One of our clients did sort of, they had done nothing for years and years, big, big, massive company and they hadn't done anything for a long time.
Jo:And they had, they launched Korero in 2024, 2023, sorry. And the people that had career conversations in 2024 were six times less likely to have left the business by 2026 than those who hadn't. Basically, if you have a career conversation, if you'd had a career conversation, you're six times less likely to leave than the people that didn't have them. Wow. That's not our platform necessarily.
Jo:Obviously, we can now collect that data. That's the fact that they're, the people that had the career conversations have got managers who took the time to sit down with them who now understand their career path have probably put them on some development pathway Yep. Have done stuff as a result of the meeting. You know, we can't say it's the tech. It's the people using the tech that have done it.
Jo:But we've now you know, we can now see that people that using it over time, it does make a difference to retention.
Mason:And that's almost like the catalyst, I guess, those conversations for that open world
Jo:For the billing. Exactly. Yeah. For the embedding, getting, feeling like you really know somebody on a deeper level more than just and also we don't just talk about performance in the conversations. We encourage people to talk about obviously what people want to do with their futures, how they want to develop, how we can get them there, but also their well-being.
Jo:One of my favorite questions is, is there anything at home at the moment might be stopping you being the best you can be at work? Because you never know what was going on in someone's life. So many people will walk in and be like, yeah, fine. Yeah, fine. And, but when you sit down-
Mason:They're carrying the weight of the world on Yeah, the
Jo:know, and especially in hospitality when, you know, things are tight at the moment and we do have a lot of people who are working on or around minimum wage, you know, things are tough. Yeah. And it's important I think to recognize that you can't fix everything, but to understand, to recognize, to ask why. So although I'm very much like you can deliver any message with kindness and if people aren't doing what they're supposed to be doing, then we need to deal with it. I'm also like, but let us understand why and let's help and let's support and coach and see if we can get somebody to where they could be.
Mason:Yeah. And I guess those having those conversations, recognition probably isn't the right term, but it's in, like, a very similar realm because those conversations is just, I guess, generic. How are you doing? How you know, how can we make you feel valued? But recognition, obviously, is a really important thing.
Mason:And I think when just looking at consensus data, it seems like recognition is starting to to be more of a prominent thing in in the workplace now so more than ever. But then talking about having those conversations on a on a manual basis but utilizing tech to facilitate those, where do you think the line starts and stops with what you can automate with recognition and where it needs to be that human to human connection?
Jo:I mean, I think there were two parts to recognitions and there's the people want to feel valued. So a lot of people at the moment, the reason that people leave organizations typically is because they feel undervalued and overwhelmed and they can't see a future. So I think the first part of recognizing somebody is thanking them when they've done a good job and making them feel appreciated. And then the second part is actually, is there something more over and above what you're contracted to do if you're going over and above, you know, for us, can we go over and above for you and what does that look like? So then you come on to recognition in terms of, I suppose technology and the, it's quite old now, isn't it, PerkBox?
Jo:Don't know when it came on the scene, but your PerkBox is your reward gateways, sort of, you know, the types of recognition platforms. I still don't know how well they're utilized and how well and how much uptake there is. Mhmm. I've certainly gone into organizations before and talked to people about reward and recognition and they're putting stuff out there, but it's not being used at all.
Mason:It's not sticking, it's almost like they're necessarily able to have some type of platform to have a platform. The utilizations really low.
Jo:Yeah and the awareness, you know, if one of the things that comes out of employee surveys is, you know, being, know, is career progression and being recognized and that kind of thing. The other thing that comes out is always communication. Yeah. And so I think a massive lack of communication, if you ask people, you know, what do you get in rewards? You know, they won't be aware.
Jo:Also there's a lot of top down stuff I think with recognition. I remember somebody putting a cycle to work scheme in, you know, and spending months and months and months doing it. And literally two people signed up. Another business that I've worked with, like they could get, you know, a round of golf for 50% off once they'd been there for two years. And you're like, number one, the demographic of the people don't play golf.
Jo:Yeah. Number two, they can't afford it even at 50% off way. And number three, who's waiting two years to be able to go and play a ground of golf where you work. Yeah, You know, for the business, they were like, but what an amazing perk this is. So anything to do with recognition, ask, ask.
Jo:It's like employee value proposition when you're doing anything about employer brand. The people in your business know, you know, so what do people want? That's, again, that's where I would go with them.
Mason:I think it's definitely like we're in a we're in an era or a time now where there is no excuse that you shouldn't be delivering a curated experience in terms of recognition for team members because you look at one restaurant, you've got such a varying array of demographics of people working in there, and they all might want to be rewarded and recognized in in really different ways. When you're looking at these latent platforms, it's they're there because that's what's there. Obviously, you know, like, you know, it's very topical for
Jo:us at the
Mason:moment is that's why the uptake is really low because everyone's just it is a top down approach and everyone's having the same thing and it's not really then resonating with people, which therefore means that they don't feel like they're being Exactly. Recognized.
Jo:So the top best places to work in hospitality, the one of the top three things that has come out, I think for the last three or four years, maybe five, is working for a business that cares about me. The way that you show that you care about someone is to make sure that their experience is individualized. Yep. And one of the best ways to individualize an experience is for them to be able to choose how that how they're rewarded in some respect.
Mason:Yep. And how far do you think we can go now, you knowing what you know about the industry, how far do you think we can go with using tech to recognize in certain aspects? So if you're measuring loads and loads of different KPIs and metrics or soft skills of of brand values
Jo:Mhmm.
Mason:It's probably very difficult for a business to expect a manager to go and personally recognize every single thing that every single person is doing on a regular basis. But we also know going the other way, you can't just file loads of notifications at team members saying
Jo:No.
Mason:Well done, well done, well done. Where do you think that balance sits in your opinion?
Jo:I think peer recognition is really important. I think people being able to say, yeah, you did a good job.
Mason:Yeah. And for that to then get recognized by the whole org as well or is it just peer to peer communication?
Jo:No, by the whole organization. I mean, manually, one of the places that I've seen it work certainly for values is literally, I think Byron did it back in the day and one of my clients do it as well, is you have values cards and you could do this on tech, I'm sure. You have values cards and you have a certain number and when you see somebody displaying that, you give them the card, they collect so many cards, they get reward. Yeah. You could facilitate that with technology.
Mason:Yeah. Because you are still getting recognized. It's just taking out the the lack of accountability from a manager's perspective. So now I'm having these conversations, I'm recognizing people, but it's not getting tracked. Yes.
Mason:So making it easier to do that basically. Is that what you're saying?
Jo:I think so. And I think everybody likes to feel they've been seen and that they feel like they belong. I think it's about really, you know, what are the behaviors that you're trying to drive by recognizing somebody for it? You know, what are the things? I think anything done really well and like with any with anything, it has to come from the top and it has to become part of how we do things here.
Jo:And I think a lot of the time with technology, it's sort of taken for granted. You can just launch something and people use it. And actually, there's quite a lot of sort of change management that needs to happen and culture change for things to move from, oh, we did it this way, now we did it this way. So people have to understand what's in it for them, what's the point, you know, if you give somebody a load of values cards or whatever it is and just say go and do this, and then why, what's the point?
Mason:You just forget about it.
Jo:Yeah. So it has to become important to people.
Mason:Mhmm. And do you think I mean, it seems like everybody in hospitality is measuring some type of metric, whether it's a soft skill or a specific KPI on sales. But do you you think reward and recognition should be linked to performance? Or is it a wider is it a wider thing that people need to be recognized for, for example?
Jo:I think that it depends on the organization and the journey, the individual journey they're on. I think some organizations it's right for and others it might not be and it depends on where they are in sort of an evolution of what things look like. I think if you're super, super clear about this is, you know, this is what you need to achieve and it's achievable and you can get there and all your behaviors and your expectations and everything is set and it's all going really well, then you can start rewarding it. When it becomes arbitrary or something that's done because somebody feels like it, that's when it's a bit more dangerous, I would say.
Mason:Right.
Jo:So I think it's a journey towards in terms of real, you know, when we talk about performance related pay and bonuses, it has to be really fair. It has to be really transparent. People have to understand how it works. I think that's the most important thing. If a business can't facilitate that process and that change, then I think it can be more damaging than it can be rewarding.
Jo:But I think if you're ready then yes, absolutely. It should be something that could be done.
Mason:One last thing, so you said the gap between the best and the rest is widening. Yes. What do you think businesses can do more of to ensure that they are doing more of the best?
Jo:I mean, talk to their people. However that's done, you know, you don't have to use Korero, talk to them in any way. I think understanding, having a real understanding of your workforce, the demographic that make it up, the fact that not everybody's the same, treating people as individuals, making sure that, you know, the people that you have got you care about and you're helping them be the best versions of themselves. I think it is genuinely caring about people. I always see a big shift in the culture of business when it goes from being founder led to VC backed.
Jo:Yep. And that's a natural evolution and that's why people get into it. You know, we're not all just doing it for fun and love. Yeah. You know, that's why, but things do change.
Jo:And I think that's hard for people on the ground that one minute are in this. We're all part of something really special. We know where we're going. We're part of a, you know, this we're on this amazing journey to suddenly, right now it's like this, this and this, Yeah.
Mason:It's militant.
Jo:Yeah. You know, and
Mason:And that's not why people work in hospitality, is it?
Jo:No. No. People yeah. You know, there's a million different people reasons why people work in hospitality, but none of it is because they, you know, wanna make their first million before they're 25. Yeah, yeah.
Jo:You know, it's hard, right? Yeah. You know, it's really hard. And the same for everybody that supplies into it. You know, it's not it's not an easy industry.
Jo:Everyone's always said to me, well, if you can do it in hospitality, can do it anywhere. I'm like, we haven't done it hospitality yet. So, you know, one day maybe we'll move on.
Mason:Yeah. But no, I think, yeah, I think that sort of hits the nail on the head going back to the point around it being such a people centric industry. Yeah. Having those conversations, making sure that people feel valued, it's almost like your people are your superpower. Yes.
Mason:And you really need to treat them in that way, not be like they're just part of the business. Yeah. People run hospitality. Yeah. You can't argue that point.
Jo:They're the USP, your competitive advantage, you know, it's everything, isn't it? You know, you go somewhere and you have bad service, you remember it and you talk about it, you know, and almost the food becomes secondary.
Mason:Yeah. It's so easy to get it wrong, I think. It's so hard to get it right, but it's people are so unforgiving. And when you walk in and see someone smiling at you, that sort of speaks a thousand words
Jo:Yeah.
Mason:I think. And that comes from the back end processes of having those conversations, making sure they're enjoying things.
Jo:Yeah. Definitely.
Mason:One last question. Yeah. What are you grateful for? You knew this was coming, didn't you?
Jo:I did know this was coming. And then I was also like, what am I grateful for? I spent probably an inordinately long amount of time on the train this morning thinking about this.
Mason:Well, it's given me a really long philosophical answer, didn't
Jo:It's really I did. And it's really easy to say, oh, my kids, but I'm not grateful for them at the moment because I do in my head in because it's summer holidays, so it's not gonna be them. I think I'm grateful that I've had such a long career in and around this industry and that's only made possible by continual sort of evolution and meeting new people and like working with different partners. And I think it's really, again, it's really easy to say, oh, it's the customers or it's my team, but I do a lot, you know, a lot of what I do gets done because of the partnerships that I build. And even though our technology might not necessarily integrate, you know, the fact that, you know, we work with people like you with, with Monitor, I've got partnership with Euda, the guys at Pay Captain, I'm meeting another potential partner later, John and the team at Sideways, all these smaller tech businesses.
Jo:And I'm really grateful for the opportunities during the podcast. You invited me to a dinner a couple of weeks ago. Yeah. That I wouldn't have if, you know, we didn't have these relationships. So yeah, I think the partnerships and the teams that surround the industry, I think that's what I'm grateful for today.
Mason:Amazing. Thank you so much.
Jo:Thank you.
Mason:Appreciate you coming on.
Jo:Pleasure.