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Small group leaders, pastors, and more discussing strategies for growth and community in church groups. The Small Group Network is an international ministry that equips churches to engage in deeper discipleship and community.
RODECaster Pro II Main Multitrack:
Hey everyone.
This month's episode of SG Squared,
Steve Gladen on small groups, is
going to be a little bit different.
In the world of small groups,
a giant recently passed away.
Chris Surratt, who has written several
books, taught hundreds of conferences
and seminars, and mentored countless
individuals, including myself, was
suddenly taken home to be with the Lord.
In honor of Chris and his incredible
impact in the small group world,
we reached out to Brian Daniel,
Chris's co host on the Group Answers
podcast, and asked if we could share
an episode featuring Chris and Steve.
Brian graciously agreed, and that's
what we are presenting to you today.
As you're listening, please don't
forget to say a prayer for Chris's
wife and family, and thank God for
the impact that God had on churches
around the world through Chris.
Let's listen in.
Hey, this is Brian with
the Group Answer Show.
So, how are your Bible
study groups doing after the
disruptions of the past few years?
Recent data from LifeWay Research provides
valuable insights into the state of
groups leading to practical steps for
fostering vibrant and healthy groups.
The State of Groups Insights report
provides an inside look at how churches
across the nation are conducting their
group ministries, the key ministry for
making disciples in the local church.
Packed with insights for your group
ministry, the report equips pastors and
group ministry leaders to multiply kingdom
impact by equipping group leaders to
make disciples through groups ministry.
Visit lifewayresearch.
com slash state of groups to read
the full report, explore the data
and learn how to establish a healthy
and thriving groups ministry.
Lifeway Leadership Podcast Network.
You're listening to the group
answers podcast, a weekly show
designed to resource train and
encourage small group leaders.
Each episode considers current trends
and resources as well as timeless
truths and methods of discipleship.
It's hosted by Brian.
Hey everybody, welcome back to
another episode of group answers.
My name is Chris Serrat and I
am your host for this episode.
My cohost, Brian Daniel could not
be here, which, uh, I told him was
actually probably a better thing.
Um, if he's not, not on the cat,
cause he, he holds it back really.
I mean, you guys know that
you listen every week.
No, I'm just kidding.
I love Brian, but, uh, he couldn't be
here, but I am joined by my good friend.
Steve Gladen.
Hey, Steve.
Hey, it's great to be with the, my
favorite, uh, host of group answers.
Good answer.
Speaking of group answers,
that was a great answer.
Steve is a true friend of the podcast.
I don't even know how many times
you've been on this podcast, Steve.
Um, but, uh, if you haven't heard
him before, he is a pastor of small
groups at Saddleback church in,
uh, California and other places.
He, uh, has been there for.
Uh, longer than I've been
alive, I think, right?
That hurts.
That hurts.
24 years.
But I think you're just a smidge over 24.
Yeah, I know.
Uh, double that.
And that's, that's about where I
am, but no, he's been there a long
time, which is amazing because that
is definitely not normal in, uh,
especially the ministry world or really
the small groups world, which is kind
of sad, but, uh, quite a legacy that
he's leaving, uh, as he, uh, dies.
No, that's.
Sounded terrible.
It sounded like I'm setting
you up for, uh, Wow.
I was going to say, well,
who's he talking about?
Terminal disease.
No, he's leaving a legacy and
continues to do that at Saddleback.
And I'm so excited to have Steve on.
Steve and I have known each
other for many, many years.
And I think we've told the story on
group answers before, but I met a bit
of conference that they were putting
on at Saddleback and, uh, Somebody
introduced me to him and I was like,
Hey, Steve, it's great to know you.
I'm reading your book.
And he goes, okay, well,
here's my cell phone.
And I said, I hope that's great.
I figured it was probably the cell
phone of his assistant's assistant.
And so I called him one morning at
two in the morning and he answered.
So it is Steve.
Yeah.
At two in the morning, I will
answer six in the morning.
It's voicemail.
That's true.
That is true.
No, but that's just the kind of guy he is.
We, uh, we host, uh, co host, co teach
a conference together called a line
that we just did one in accelerate.
We did accelerate.
That's true.
That's true.
Um, you're a point person.
Well, you'll see one of the two of us.
That is true.
But we just did it in a line
in, uh, Irvine, California.
I got to host it at my church
Harvest Christian Fellowship, so
that was a lot of fun last week.
And then as of this recording,
we're doing another one in Atlanta,
Georgia, which will be fun.
And then I think we're doing
one at the end of the year in
Nashville, but you can check all
that out on the website, correct?
Yeah.
It's a, it's a great conference
that we both love to do because
we put our heads together and.
We got, you know, close to 60 plus years
of groups ministry, uh, putting together
a conference that if, if you're new to the
game or you don't have your footing under
you, we give you some great essentials.
So, uh, save yourself a lot of pain
points and, uh, spend a day with us and.
Make the mistakes we made from us.
We always say it's the essentials
and it is, it really is getting
the essentials of small groups, but
there is so much more gold in there.
Um, I mean, we're having some really
large churches that are coming to these
that are, you know, getting a lot out
of it and it's a great first step.
before accelerate.
So if you're looking at how, uh, kind of
a development pathway for your ministry,
a lion is a great place to start.
And then accelerate is kind of
your next step where you can bring
your team and make plans together.
And, uh, yeah, so it's a great pathway,
but I'm especially glad to have Steve
on today because as we were discussing
before we went on the air, I am a St.
Louis Cardinals fan.
I've been my entire life, grew
up in the great city of St.
Louis and, uh, Steve lives
in, uh, in California and I
believe you're an angels fan.
Is that correct?
That's because God's God has angels.
So that's why we like this team.
Yeah, well, I'm so glad it's
the angels, not the Dodgers.
Uh, I would have serious issues with that
because the angels never win anything.
So who cares?
But, uh, one of the best Cardinals
players ever, Albert Pujols, uh, The angel
stole him away, uh, several years ago,
I guess it's been about a decade ago.
And, uh, so he left 354 million for 350
more, $4 million in greener pastures.
And how many World Series did
you guys win during that time?
Yeah, we, we don't, we don't.
Count on such miniscule things
like trophies and that but
it's more about life together.
Yeah Well, either Cardinals won the
same amount, although they went to a
couple of World Series during that time,
but Did not manage to win But anyways,
it was just announced that Pujols is
coming back for one more year with the
Cardinals at 5 million dollars So thank
you Anaheim Angels for the gift If
you ever wondered if California didn't
know how to do business and run their
state, we just put an exclamation point
on that little exchange right there,
Yeah.
Yeah.
Although, you know, if you, if you
figure in the cost of living the $2.5
million is probably equivalent
to the $354 million that he
was getting in, uh, California.
So , you know, it's
probably a wash actually.
That's, that's probably true.
Yeah.
But one reason I start with this
story is we're gonna talk about data.
Or stats, as I like to say,
cause I'm a, I'm a baseball
freak, but data is important.
It's something that we need to
think about as a group's people.
You know, we don't always have the
best data at our fingertips, I think as
groups of people, because you know, small
groups, discipleship is not always as
quantifiable, I think as other ministries.
I mean, if you are Trevor
Burrus That's true.
A youth pastor, you probably have either
a midweek service or a Sunday afternoon
service or whatever, where you have kids
and you count them, hopefully you say we
had this many kids come to youth service.
And so that's a stat.
If you're a kid's pastor, same thing,
you've got this many kids coming to our
Sunday morning programming or whatever
it is, and you're counting them where
if you do small groups, especially
off campus, small groups in homes.
Coffee houses, planes, or
in Steve's case, yachts.
True story.
Um, you can't always count them
or it's not as easy to count them.
So sometimes we just go, well,
we hope they're showing up.
We really do.
Uh, we have this many groups.
Do we know how many are attending?
It's ish this many.
So we don't always have the greatest data.
So what I want to talk about
with Steve, because I think
they do about as good a job as.
Is any church that I know, and he
talks about this in a line by the way,
um, but at capturing not only those
hard stats, which are those numbers
that we should know, and I wanna ask
Steve what those numbers are for them,
but also what he calls soft stats.
And we'll get into what
that means in just a minute.
But let's start with the hard stats.
I think it's important
that we know what they are.
So for you guys specifically,
Steve, what are those hard
stats that you want to know?
Maybe you look at weekly, maybe,
maybe it's monthly, but to make sure
that you've got a healthy ministry.
Yeah, and I'll just let me, I'm going
to back up just a second, just preface
it because you do talk about data.
And a lot of times, uh,
obviously we know Jesus is king.
We will say that over and over again.
Everyone on this podcast, we give a
big nod in their room that they're
listening to, uh, towards that.
But the, the thing in small group
ministry, what we don't realize is
that really data is king because data
is so important to help us understand.
Uh, are we achieving what we're wanting
to achieve and temple courts, uh, kind of
has their own set of data that are, are
they hitting the marks and in small group
ministry, we have our own set of data.
And as Chris alluded to, we,
we predominantly most churches.
And I will say I have done in
the five churches, I've been a
part of staff, uh, their staff.
We tend to focus on what
we'd like to call hard data.
And what, what I discovered is
that we, we missed on soft data.
And so, but to answer Chris's question,
cause I know we'll get to both is
what is that hard data and that hard
data is the data that you need to
measure health in the individual.
And the health of your group, because
we know it's not just about attendance.
We, we have learned long, long,
long ago that attendance doesn't
give us spiritual health.
Uh, this pandemic showed
out in, in countless times,
there were a lot of people.
Who grew old in the church,
but they did not grow up in,
uh, spiritually in the church.
Uh, they may have perfect attendance,
but boy, oh boy, were they cantankerous,
were they vocal, were they mean, uh, I
got emails from some people that, uh.
I knew Jesus longer than, uh, closer than
I've been a follower of Christ myself.
And uh, it was just like,
wow, as my brother likes to
say, some sheep like to bite.
Oh boy.
Thank you.
I'm going to steal that story
because man, not only did they bite.
Uh, but then they had
friends that bite too.
So, but, uh, but part of what we
got to realize is that, uh, you've
got to first understand, do you have
measurements for individual health?
So if you've got a disciple,
do you have measurements that,
that can, you know, and, and like
Chris said, Discipleship isn't
too quantifiable, but what you can
quantify is, are they engaging with it?
Um, and you can lead them
towards that, that part.
And so, like, one of, two of the, one,
two of the data points we love the most
are, have you done a health assessment?
Have you engaged with trying to
figure out, where am I at with where
we at Saddleback Church would say,
This is where we'd want to drive you
towards, towards spiritual health.
And that's balancing the five verbs of
the great commission, great commandment.
So we have to say, uh, a simple 35
question assessment, just so you
as a veteran Christian or a nominal
Christian, or maybe not even a
Christian, you could take an assessment
just to say, Hey, let me just.
Kind of pinpoint where
might be some growth areas.
I need to have and then and I'll tell you
this Chris I'm sure you experience it too.
People love to assess themselves.
I mean every time a new spiritual
Personality test comes out people
love to learn about themselves
but they don't like to apply it to
working with others and so I would
say Unfortunately, we hold the true.
We have a lot of people that love
to engage in our health assessment.
But when it comes to engaging the
planner and putting accountability
around you that you choose, I mean,
this is the crack up, you know, the
stats start to drift off a little bit.
But so 1 of them is, you know,
the health assessment and that
helps us with the individual.
Then there's another assessment.
We have a group assessment,
a little bit lighter.
It's only about 10 questions, basically
two on each purpose, kind of working at
two angles of the purpose on measurables
and and how are they engaging with it?
Or I should say understanding it.
And with that one, We used to just
send it to the leaders and, you
know, Hey, would you just give
us a snapshot of your leaders?
It literally takes less than
a couple of minutes to, to
engage with it and complete it.
And, uh, one particular time when we sent
it out to all our leaders, uh, all of our
stats got, they were just off the charts.
And what happened was, is we went
back to our IT team and said, what,
what, what in the world happened?
What, or first off, we were
going, what happened in our last
calendar year, our last six months
that that took us in such a dip?
And what happened was they accidentally
sent it to everybody in the group.
And what we discovered was, is our
leaders have been, uh, well, what shall
we see in a, uh, a very, they're very.
Uh, they have a great gift of faith
in how they view their group and, uh,
the leaders had a little bit more of
a realistic, I mean, the attenders had
a little bit more of a realistic view.
Yeah.
So it was.
Yeah.
Figure that right.
So have you guys continued sending
it to everybody since then?
Oh, yeah, since then, you know,
we'll send it to everybody.
So those are the 2 big ones that we
would like to really press on all of our
campuses and with all of our connections
pastors on, you know, how are we doing
it in those areas once done yearly.
The other one is done, uh, the
group one is done every six months.
Um, but then there's other things that
are, are, are very hard stats data.
You know, we have a training
pathway for our group leaders.
How far along are they
on that training pathway?
Uh, with how they're doing,
there's a curriculum pathway.
How well are they engaging
curriculum and, uh, what type
of curriculum are they engaging?
Um, the different tools other than
the health assessment and the group
assessment that we have, you know.
Uh, from ideas.
So there's different hard metrics there.
And then there's obviously the
um, you know At your campus how
many people are helping you manage
your small group ministry based
on the number of groups you have?
And do you have that those ratios done?
So the that's a broad spectrum of
hard data That is important to us and
obviously beyond that Then you start
to get into the group life itself.
You know, uh, who's on
the roster in your group.
We don't take attendance.
We're more concerned about have
they taken a health assessment or
a group assessment is a stronger
mark with us than, than attendance
because, uh, the, our assessments will
guarantee us attendance is happening.
Whereas attendance doesn't always
guarantee health is happening.
Uh, but there's, you know, what day
of the, what date is the group meet?
Is the group open?
Is the group closed?
Uh, where's the leader at and their
developmental process with our overall
church and different things like that.
So there's a lot of there's.
As many stats that you can think of
that are hard stat, the thing I would
say, though, is before you start asking
for data and stats from your group
leaders, make sure it's the data that
helps you get your groups healthier and
make sure anything you're asking for,
you're using just don't collect stats
to sit in some room that We'll never,
ever be used or we'll never, ever give
you a clue on what you're trying to do.
So, um, it's hard data, super, super
important, but as I think we're going
to be heading into pretty soon is
the soft data is what's more better.
Yeah, but let me uh,
go back just a minute.
You just stumped a lot of,
uh, a lot of stuff there.
One was you don't take attendance,
and so I wanna, I wanna go back to
that for just a second because I've
gone kind of across the board on this.
I, I used to, if you've read my
first book, I said, we don't want our
leaders to have to do math, and so.
We don't require they take attendance,
but this was when I wrote that book
there, there weren't a lot of great
easy tools for taking attendance.
Um, it was more work, you know, you had
to actually log into a website or, uh, do
it on a spreadsheet and all of that where.
You know, a lot of the tools now, a lot
of the databases have it built into it.
Um, you know, it, it'll automatically
send an email to the, the leader and
all they have to do is check off a
name, and that's, that's it, basically.
So it makes it super simple.
So I've come around a little bit
on that because the, you know, at
Harvest we do attendance and one
thing, it just gives me a pulse.
On week to week, especially looking year
over year, you know, looking at the dips,
uh, one thing it has shown me is that
I saw over the last year when we had
major dips in attendance, it was because
we were distracting them with events.
Um, I could point out, okay, we had this.
event that week.
And so we had half the number of
people go to small groups, uh,
you know, all throughout the year.
And so it was a little bit of a,
of a, just a light bulb of, wow, if
we offer other things, people are
going to, you know, not go to group.
And then here's something
interesting to Steve.
After every one of those dips, our
average attendance went down so it didn't
recover to where it was before the dip.
So, you know, we had this many and we
had about the same, and then all of a
sudden we'd have an event and it dipped
down to about, you know, a half or a
third, and then it would come up to
about, um, 75 percent or 80 percent
of where it was before the dip, before
the event, and it would stay there.
And so all of this, uh, data has kind of
given me some knowledge and for planning
for the future, you know, if we're
going to, how many groups do we need?
So how do that doesn't play into,
or do you get enough surveys and
all that you can tell that way?
Sure.
No, I think it's, I think you bring up
a great point and I definitely wouldn't
poopoo so much taking attendance.
I think a lot of it forms out
of our own language, Steve.
Uh, yeah, I know this is life way.
I was trying to say pools,
uh, but I wouldn't poo poo attendance,
but a lot of times, uh, that's where
groups will leave it at, uh, part
of the, you know, the, the honesty
is that, uh, we're a proprietary
software, we create our own stuff.
And so for them to create that as
this something, I don't want to,
I have other tools at my means to
get me what I need something else.
So just to kind of.
Keep helping to tweak people's minds and
get them to think in a different way when
you read acts 242 to 47, which we always
always, you know, talk about so much
about that's what group life is all about.
We want to do everything that's
in that chunk of scriptures
because it's modeled to us.
What is interesting is that.
Frequency is never talked about
in those passages, uh, temple
courts, it is, uh, throughout the
scripture, but frequency is not talked
about on the house to house side.
So, um, the, the question
is what we're more after.
And maybe I should
learn to state it clear.
Um, is who, as a leader,
are you caring for?
And again, our groups
are launched for life.
So they're not getting the decks, not
getting reshuffled or anything like that
is happening, but there are five couples
in my group and whether all of them
come or not, uh, isn't as much, uh, as
are we giving the right care for them?
And so it's just important that.
Uh, you're right.
There are a lot of tools.
We, we know lots of great, uh, guys
that are running software companies that
build groups software that you're right.
Attendance is much easier to take, but I
also wouldn't want it to, uh, discount.
Is the care really happening in there?
So I think it's just a blend of both.
I hear what you're saying, but it's one
of those blends that sometimes attendance,
we tend to count noses and nickels.
All through church.
And as long as you're getting a
lots of both, then life is good and
sometimes it's a false positive.
Yeah, absolutely.
Um, you know, the other, like
you said, I love what you said
on the attendance piece too.
The other side of it, I attended a
groups conference several years ago
and I was in a breakout and somebody
asked the, the person who was doing the
breakout, well, how do you know if people
are being discipled in your groups?
That's always the question, which we're
going to get into, I think with soft.
Soft data, but the answer was, we
figure if they're showing up to
group, they're being discipled.
Maybe, maybe not.
Uh, probably not.
So let's get into that
a little bit, Steve.
I think you, you have captured
something with, uh, the idea of not
only getting hard data, but even
more important getting soft data.
So talk about what that means.
Yeah.
So there's.
There's two things.
One would be a story that I,
I tell usually at conferences.
And when Lisa and I first came on at
Saddleback, a very well meaning couple
invited us over for dinner and, uh,
you know, a little bit older than us.
We were excited to meet them.
Obviously we didn't know very many people.
And so, uh, when we drove up to their
house, GPS systems and all that.
I'm almost scared to
think that I think we, uh.
They may have even had a Thomas
guide with us to get to their house.
That's how long ago this was.
I don't even know what that is.
A Thomas guide.
Yeah.
Just Google it or, you know, yeah, it
was the forerunner before map quest.
This is how bad this is.
Uh, but anyway, so as we were going
to their house, figuring out where
they were located, you're like, Oh my
goodness, this isn't a great neighborhood.
I think I'm really going
to love these people.
And you're pulling up in their driveway.
And, uh, you're getting buzzed in
and you're like going, Oh, my, these
could be new great friends for us.
We would love these friends.
And so you're having dinner with them,
talking about them, and you have a
beautiful, uh, view of the ocean.
And so we're just like going,
we're going to be lifelong friends.
And so we're in this whole
conversation and having a fun
time at dinner and at dessert.
Uh, they had brought out some catalogs
and it wasn't that that was such a bad
move, but it was such a, uh, it was
like, it just tilted our heads a little
bit like on, Oh, what's happening now?
And they were just saying, Hey,
we know that, you know, sometimes
being in ministry can be hard and
we want to help, you know, this is a
great way to supplement your income.
And we found it to be great and all that.
And it was, you know,
appreciated the pitch, appreciate
everything they had to say.
But Lisa and I left the dinner feeling
a little bit hollow because, um, we
came with one expectation and we left
like, I think this may be our last time
we see him if we say no, and it was,
and, uh, and, but the, the, the, the
point was, is that a lot of times we do
the same thing with our group leaders.
Uh, we come along them saying, Hey,
we want to be your best friends.
But yet we're always going after
the hard data we talked about.
We're always talking about, hey, did
you, did you jump through the hoops?
Did you do everything we asked you to do?
Did you fill out the forms?
Did you do the latest curriculum?
Did you push the health assessment?
Did you push the group assessment?
And you're, you're going.
They're, they're coming in saying,
Hey, this is a relationship.
And at Saddleback, we're always saying,
Hey, we're a family, we're a family
together, but yet we found out that a
lot of our engagements with our leaders.
Didn't feel like family.
They felt like, you know, I
need something from you and our
data is stuff that you want.
But the thing that we stumbled
upon is that soft data is what
they're wanting to talk about.
And when you look at the life of Jesus,
when Jesus walked this planet, you
kind of look, look through this is
that he generally, uh, not every time,
but almost all the time, when he met
somebody, he took care of their needs.
And then.
He, he, uh, he met their physical needs,
but then he, he, you know, talked about
the, the living water and the, and the
bread of life and, and minister to them
and then walked them through the gospel.
And a lot of times we don't get
that page out of his playbook.
And we always want to say, Hey,
I want my stuff first, and I want
you to do what the church wants.
And, and what can happen is, is you,
you, you miss the relational side.
And so part of sex soft data
is simply just making sure.
That you get to know the person first
that you get to know what they're
about and who they are as a leader.
And again, when you think through a
family system, we know that the more time
you spend with your kids when they're
younger, if you have kids, or if you
don't have kids, you can remember when
your parents, you know, parented you.
But the more time you spend with them,
the more likely you are to have a
better relationship where when the hard
conversations come, they're more apt not
to leave the room than to, uh, they're,
they're more apt to stay with you and have
a conversation than, than leave the room.
And I can think of that as our
kids are in their twenties.
Now, we have had much more robust
conversations because we didn't
violate them by saying, Hey, I'm
not gonna spend any time with you.
Kids are better.
Not seen.
I grew up in that generation
where kids were best not to
be heard from or engaged with.
Uh, they were just, you know, hey,
get through school, go to college,
get a job and get out of the house.
And so mom and dad can have fun.
So the soft data is simply just engaging
with your group leaders, discovering who.
Who they are in, in the period of a
calendar year, what's important to them?
Like I've known Chris, I
know that if I'm in St.
Louis and I buy him a St.
Louis hat, which I'll never waste
money on something like that.
But if I did that and I brought it to
him at a conference, he'd go, Oh my gosh.
I may bring you mine now that I
have, uh, actually I have a St.
Louis one from him.
So I may have to give that to you.
But the, but the point is, is that, you
know, there's an equation we have is that
when you want to speak truth to somebody.
To your group leaders in the truth is your
hard data when you want to speak truth
to somebody it is built on a platform of
trust that means if I'm going to speak
the truth do I trust the person enough
who's giving me the information and then.
You can only be a trusted resource
if you've spent the time with them.
So you have truth that's built on
trust and trust is built on a platform
of did you spend time with them?
And so when we're talking about
discipleship, you know, I have parents
that will say hey I told my kid what
to do and they didn't do it You know,
we have that too, uh, but you know,
the ability to follow up with them
and ask the harder questions of why
it requires that you've spent time
with them so that they can trust you
so that when you speak the truth,
hopefully they change their behavior.
And if you go to any sporting event.
Uh, like a, uh, St.
Louis Cardinals game over
in Busch Stadium, if that's
what it's still called in St.
Louis.
Uh, you go out there, there's going
to be some person on a microphone,
uh, screaming into the microphone.
If you don't know Jesus,
you're going to hell, which is
going to be a true statement.
But the problem is that that source
that's speaking the truth isn't trusted.
So people walk by and they're
paying no attention to them.
And in the same way, when you
want discipleship to happen into
your small groups, it has got
to be built on a foundation.
that you've spent time with them.
When you look at Peter, when you
look at Paul, when you look at Jesus,
the number one part of discipleship
is the relational part of it.
Do they, do you, is it
relational discipleship or
is it you're checking boxes?
And so it's going to be super
important that, you know, all the
critical information for them.
And I'll never forget when I
stumbled upon this, I was talking
to a group leader, happened to be
a lady, uh, at the time when I was
first on a saddleback, I was the.
I was it there.
We didn't have any infrastructure
or anything like that.
And I came meeting with her and I said,
Hey, you know, talk to me about your life.
What's important to you?
And, uh, and, you know, I'll give you
some formula to, to help you with this,
to engage this, this part of it out.
But she was talking about certain
dates and she goes November 15th.
And I'll never forget.
It's the day after my wife's birthday.
But she goes, November 15th is important.
I go, Hey, why is that important?
I thought it was a
birthday or an anniversary.
And she goes, that's when
my sister committed suicide.
And in an interior moment, it
was a, it was a point where
I could connect with her.
And back then, you know, texting
wasn't around or stuff like that.
So it's much easier to communicate
with people, but I sent a card to
her every year as, you know, she
was one of our group leaders and I
just said, I know this week is hard.
As I can't even imagine what
you're going through, but just know
that I'm praying for you, and it
didn't matter that I was a pastor.
What mattered was is that I cared about
the things that she cared about, and
it's the same thing in evangelism.
Only your friends.
And so if you're not building
friendships with the people that
you want to see walk across the
line of faith, you're gonna miss.
And in the same way, soft data
is those simple things that
where you get to know him.
I, I, I talked to our community.
There's got a community leader
retreat coming up at the end of
the, at the end of the month.
Right now, community leaders are the
people that help us to navigate, um, You
know, working with our, um, our group
leaders and, and always tell me if you
can't tell me the spouse's name, if you
can't tell me their kids names, if you
don't know their anniversary, if you don't
know their birth dates, those are just
prime, simple things to engage with a
group leader on that can get to know him.
But if I could.
Could I be a, a, a, a pure Saddleback
geek and give a an acrostic?
Absolutely.
You have to you have to
do that before you leave.
So, so if you're, I, you know,
it's just, it's burned into you.
You're gonna, you're gonna do, if you
don't know how to do an acrostic, boy,
you're just a loser at Saddleback Church.
But, uh, think of the word speak.
And because you may be sitting out
there and you're like, well, you
know, I know how to get the soft data.
I mean, the hard data.
I mean, that's hardwired into
most of us as group pastors
to go after that that piece.
But sometimes the soft data
doesn't come as easy for us.
So let me just give you just a quick
little acrostic that can help you out.
And it's just off the letter speak.
And in speak, uh, all it is, is the S is
just saying, Hey, what, what's your story?
Tell me your story.
Now, the beautiful thing about this is,
is they will pick up where, wherever they
want to, uh, now, if you're talking to an
older person, they said, well, I was born
in, you know, Omaha, Nebraska, you're,
you're, you better buckle up because
there's going to be a, uh, it's going to
be a long conversation, but, you know,
as a leader, they'll, they'll, they'll
start where they are comfortable with.
And the great thing is, is the more
conversations you have with them, the more
you're going to learn about their story.
I, I've seen that in our small
group, like when we've done communion
before and you know, we say, you
know, how did you find Christ?
Well, 20 years ago when we first met each
other, it was pretty a generic version.
Uh, but now we're at the place
where I find out, Oh, you, you,
you were a drug dealer for how
long and you left the cartel when,
and you know, you killed people.
Uh, you know, no.
None of that happened, but you find
out more about the person's story.
So the S stands for just,
you know, what's your story.
Just give it to me.
And that's a great place to start off.
The P is as you're telling them
the story, you want to learn what
they're passionate about because.
Generally, people will start to give
glimpses into what they're, what they
like, what they're passionate about.
I've got a neighbor that
is passionate about plants.
I got another neighbor that's
passionate about tools.
Uh, I got another neighbor that's
passionate about dogs, uh, you know,
and so you, you pick up different things
from, you know, where they go with.
And so you want to be listening to the
passion areas with your group leaders,
because you want to speak back into that.
Uh, there's a lot of them that are very
tied around different sports teams, and
they're, they're excited about that.
But it builds a rapport that can start
to give you windows to be able to get
the hard data that you're wanting.
Uh, the E is just encouragement.
How are you giving them encouragement?
And hopefully every time you meet a group
leader, you're giving them encouragement.
Uh, you always want to be able to give
them a look, a word, a touch to be able
to To be able to bring, uh, excitement
into their lives and, um, you know, and,
and when you're giving encouragement,
we always say, listen with your eyes.
So make sure you're,
you're looking at them.
If you're giving encouragement, good
Lord, there's nothing worse than getting
distracted by your phone in the midst of.
Right.
Heartfelt conversation.
And just be careful with
that touch part too.
You want to, yeah, well, that's true.
I, I knew this would, you know, well,
this is with Lifeway and I knew that
would jump into that, that part really,
really quick, but you know, look, a word
of encouragement and then a touch, I will
say it's, it's fascinating, especially
during this pandemic that, uh, you know.
There's studies done on infants that
without certain touch that have a
failure to thrive and in the same way,
uh, adults, uh, and you're right, you
need boundaries, you know, I think
that goes without saying, although
there's been some very public, uh, we'll
skip over that, but there's been some
public figures that have gone down for.
Yeah.
And there's a lot of studies, uh, in,
in, you know, people who take things
and going down a slippery pathway
that Chris was dissolving to, and we
were not going to go into the names or
anything like that, but it's fascinating.
It does usually start with a touch
and this is why it's super important.
It's not so much for.
You going after them, although that
could be a problem, but it's also you're
maybe communicating the wrong messages.
And I'm not trying to get too prudish on
anybody here, but Guy, if you're going
with the opposite gender, just be careful.
Uh, I, I saw a beautiful picture
of this actually the other night.
Um, the Oscars, I dunno if you
watched the Oscars, but there
was a, everybody knows about it.
A slap.
The slap.
Was that the touch you're talking about?
It was the touch, no, that, yeah.
And, and why I won't get into, you
know, was it Chris Rock's falter.
or Will Smith's violence is never the
thing anyways, but they showed some video
or pictures between the, when, after that
happened during the commercial break and
it was Tyler Perry and Denzel Washington
had Will Smith on the stage and Tyler
Perry had his hands on his shoulders.
Um, and Denzel had his hand, I like
on his arm and it was just this.
Posture and picture of, Hey
man, it's going to be okay.
You know, and they were
speaking truth into his life.
And obviously I think they have the
trust and all of that that went along
with it, but it was just a picture
of them just putting their hands on
him saying, Hey, we're here for you.
Yeah.
And just the, so the rule of thumb
and encouragement is you just want to
think through a look, a word, a touch.
And obviously, uh, sometimes encourage me.
Is needed in a tough time and, uh, in
hard situations and the bottom line is
the greater the pain, the less words
you need, the more presence you need.
And so if you're talking to one of
your group leaders and they need
encouragement in a real hard time.
Your presence is more valuable.
Your look is more valuable than the
words you, you could speak with that.
So probably enough on that.
We're, we're, we're digressing
very quickly on that.
Although I would want to
dip deeper into the Oscars.
So we got story, passion, encouragement.
What's the A?
The A is abilities.
And part of what you're trying to look
for here is what natural abilities do
they have, uh, your group leaders, uh,
have incredible abilities and obviously
what You're looking for is selfishly,
do they have abilities that can help our
group ministry go to that next level?
Uh, but if you put on your whole
church hat and they're doing, they're
modeling the same thing in their
group, they're helping find what are
the abilities are sitting in my group.
That could help our church in a great
way and I have way too many stories
on this where we have done this wrong
Where a group leader just was sitting
on gold in their group I mean people
who had talents that that could help
our church in incredible ways And we,
we stumbled on it, not through the group
leader, unfortunately, but there are a
lot of great stories where we do find
it through the group leader when, you
know, Rick needs something and all that.
So you're looking for
the abilities they have.
And then the K is just knowledge.
What are they reading?
What are they listening to?
What's their podcast?
Uh, you know, what do they have
wisdom on and stuff like that.
So the whole speak across it can
be used for your group leaders.
It's also a great evangelism
tool to speak people to, you
know, starting from ground zero.
And just having a way to
start to get to know somebody.
Yeah.
I had, uh, Greg Laurie, our pastor, I
mean, he's always been an evangelist,
uh, evangelism is his thing with the
crusades, but he always talks about
how the hardest part and even for him
is how do you, where do you start?
How do you start that conversation?
And it's so funny.
I was out riding motorcycles
with him one time, and we
were just stopped for a break.
And we were beside this, this real pretty
kind of a lake where a guy was fishing.
And I watched him live this out.
He, you know, the guy came up
and he started talking to him.
He asked him about his story,
you know, why he liked to fish.
Uh, got in by the end of the conversation.
He had invited them into church
and had shared a little bit of the
gospel with them, but it started
with what you just talked about.
So I think it's, it's brilliant.
Yeah.
And I think most, uh, most people.
Who are running a small group ministry
a lot of times you get paralyzed because
you may be listening to this and go
I know much about my group leaders
and they just like he said Chris This
is a great place to start to start
to get into the story You don't have
to go with an informal apology Maybe
they've been your group leader for
20 years and you don't know anything
about him You might start with that go.
Hey, you know what?
I'm a I'm not a great pastor in this
moment, and I want to make up for
that and take it to this next level.
That's good.
And if you missed it, I love
the, uh, the picture of truth
is built on a platform of trust.
And I don't know if you mentioned it this
time, but in the conference you talk about
trust is built on a platform of time.
And so the more time you spend with
somebody, the more trust, obviously
that they have in you, and then you
can speak some truth in the hard data.
And I see that short circuited.
All the time.
We start with the truth before we've
given the time and gotten the trust.
And that's probably a lot of what's
wrong with our society at this point,
because we love spitting the truth.
Don't we?
Yeah.
It's, it's funny just how, uh, you've
already formulated your opinion and
you've already got your, your data
points in your, your, your stump speech
already ready to blast somebody out.
And you don't take the time to find out.
Why they're doing, you know, why,
why they look the way they look,
why they act the way they look.
Yep.
And, uh, yep.
And that's, that's why
Chris Rock messed up.
Back to the Oscars.
Yes.
Uh, Brian and I did an Oscars
episode a couple of years
ago and, uh, did really well.
We missed the boat by not doing this year.
Cause that would have been.
That would have been a fun
one to talk about, but, uh, at
least Steve and I got into it.
So, so that's, that's the two
sides of what we're talking about.
You got your hard data, which
I think everybody should have.
And one thing we talk about is
be honest with your hard data.
Once you know where you are
with your numbers, you know,
with your leadership, make sure
you're honest with where you are.
And then the most important
thing is that soft data.
So getting to know somebody.
Uh, spending time with them,
knowing what's important to
them through a calendar year.
I love Steve walks through an exercise
during our, our, our, uh, conference,
a line conference where you just ask
somebody, what are the important dates
this year in the anniversary, birthday,
you know, kids, uh, stuff and all that.
Those that's the stuff, soft data
that we really should care about.
And, and, uh, yeah, I know there,
I mean, I say this, I don't know
if I said it at a line, but.
Really what a classic example of
this is when we were taking our
daughter to college, which the same
city that Chris lives in, which is
Nashville, which she now lives in.
And I, I hate his city
for stealing my daughter.
Uh, but, uh, the, the classic line
is, is that six years ago, rewind
the tape or seven can't remember
right now, but, uh, Rick was, uh.
Just engaging with me through
email and, um, I think it was,
it could have been texting.
I'm not sure the methodology, but he
just said, Hey, I know that tomorrow is
going to be a hard day for you because
you are going to go on a plane as a
family of four and you're going to
come back as a family of three because
you're dropping your daughter off.
And he goes.
It's a hard time, and I just
want to let you know that Kay
and I are praying for you.
Now, the great thing was is he's
listening to me enough that he knows
the situation of what's happening.
He sees that I'm not, I'm going
to be gone, and he understands
why, but he vocalizes it.
To me through text or email or
however, however it happened.
But, but the point is, is it,
the by product is it endeared
me to him that much more.
Uh, my, my joke is it always endears
me, endeared me more to him that day
than his last six sermons, which I can't
tell him that because he'd be depressed.
Uh, but it's the same thing
for your group leaders.
When you text them to say, Hey, this one
is Sam praying for you on your birthday.
You know, Hey.
You know, I know it's
your kid's birthday today.
Could you give him this first from me?
And just let him know I'm praying for him,
you know, that will build the endearment
so that maybe when the group leader
isn't doing what you want and you have
coffee with them, you say, Hey, this,
we're all about, we're all about changing
lives, changing destinies of people.
And you kind of got to lean
into the truth a little bit.
You've got the time with them.
So they actually trust you and
they'll play ball with you.
So.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No pun intended there.
Uh, uh, back circled at a back.
We're back to baseball.
So that's, that's good.
Way to, way to wrap it up there,
Steve, and that is going to
wrap it up for this episode.
Thanks Steve for hanging out with me.
I think it was better without Brian.
Don't you, don't you feel that way?
Brian, who?
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
No, we kid.
Brian will be back on the next one
and we love, I Brian, I love you.
I really do.
We love him.
So, uh, we miss him, but, uh,
thanks for hanging out and we
would love if you would rate us.
If you'd like to do that on iTunes
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I have subscriptions, so I have
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