066 | Mikko Koskinen | From Rye to Category: Building a Distillery Brand | Kyrö Distillery

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In episode 66 of the Maffeo Drinks Podcast, Chris Maffeo speaks with Mikko Koskinen, the co-founder of Kyrö Distillery. They delve into the distinctiveness of Finnish rye as an ingredient, the importance of provenance and local culture in brand building, and the merits of being a distillery-first versus product-first company. The discussion also covers how to effectively convey a brand's story to both local and international markets, the genesis of Kyrö's products from creating rye whiskey in a sauna, and the significance of communality, Nordic minimalism, and rye's cultural relevance in their brand philosophy. Additionally, they touch upon the challenges and strategies of maintaining brand communication consistency, emphasizing the importance of building trust in premium spirits.

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00:00 Introduction to the Maffeo Drinks Podcast

00:38 Meet Mikko Koskinen: Co-Founder of Kyrö Distillery

00:45 Chris's Connection to Finland

01:35 The Evolution of Finnish Drinks

02:38 Brand vs. Liquid: What's More Important?

04:59 The Origin Story of Kyrö Distillery

07:33 The Role of Rye in Finnish Culture

17:12 Building a Distillery Brand

24:44 Simplifying Whiskey for Newcomers

35:34 Marketing Strategies and Challenges

41:40 Conclusion and Next Episode Preview

About The Host: Chris Maffeo

About The Guest: Mikko Koskinen

Interested in Group Subscriptions, Keynote Presentations or Advisory? You can get in touch at [e-mail] or find out more at maffeodrinks.com 

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

Guest

Mikko Koskinen

Co-founder | Kyrö Distillery Company

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Welcome to the Mafia Drinks
podcast.

I'm your host Chris Mafeo.
In episode 66, I speak to MI

Kokoskin and cofounder of Kyuda
Distillery.

We discuss the focus on Finnish
Rai as an ingredient and the

role of provenance and local
culture in brand building.

We speak about being distillery
first versus product 1st and we

dive into how to go from flavor
profile into a story that is

simple to convey to both local
and international markets.

I hope you will enjoy our chat.
One last thing if you enjoy this

podcast you will also like them
a fair drinks guys you can

subscribe free or paid on my
fairdrinks.com.

Hi Miko, how you doing?
I am fantastic.

Thanks for having me, Chris.
Absolutely nice.

It's a great pleasure.
Some of the listener may not

know that I used to live in
Finland, for I lived there for

three years.
So I feel a strong emotional

connection to Swami and to the
Finland's lands.

I can imagine and I hope that
you said you have recovered your

your time in Finland can
deliver, frankly, especially

during winter.
Be back in the days sometimes in

some, in some flights Helsinki,
Roma used to be the only person

with black hair on the plane, so
he was always very exotic as a

destination to go back and forth
from Rome to Helsinki.

It also can be good thing like
sometimes you want to have a

black hair and be among non
black haired people especially I

don't know maybe in the end bar
or so.

That's true.
Yeah.

So let's, let's start.
I'm really happy to have you

because I've been following your
journey for a while.

And then we managed to to get
connected somehow through many

people.
I saw the developments of the,

the finish on trade and the
finish drinks industry in the

last few years because after I,
I haven't lived there, then I

used to come back quite often
because I used to be a country

manager for Nordics and Baltics
for acai.

And I remember starting to see
your brands popping up on

shelves and I was always, you
know, keeping an eye on it.

I said this is really, really
nice.

A nice development for Finnish
drinks brands is not only about

Costco and Corvine Finlandia
vodka, but you know there is

something else coming from
Finland that is that is a little

bit different.
Yes, and that was actually one

of the things that we had in
mind when we Co founded Cura

that we wanted to make the local
spirit scene a little bit richer

on top of contributing to the
world of whiskey as well.

Fantastic.
Let's start with my usual

question about the brand or
liquid.

But I really want to understand
from you then after how did this

start and what came into play in
actually developing the new

category?
So does it start with the liquid

or with the brand?
I think it starts with the

liquid in the sense that you
need to have something to base

the brand on.
But quite often the brand is

around 90% of the value that you
create when you own a

distillery.
So kind of have to have both and

if your liquid doesn't stand
out, you can still do.

And especially in the world of
work, the taste differences are

not huge.
So that's where the brand

matters more.
In the world of whiskey, brand

does matter, but there's more
variety and taste of and quality

of the of the liquid as well.
It's a little bit like a like a

Ying and Yang of a brand and
liquid because the liquid is

what makes the the brand starts
the ignition of the fire, so to

say.
But then if you don't

substitiate it with a proper
brand and with a strong brand,

then it becomes difficult to to
sell in the in that sense,

because ultimately the brand is
visible before the liquid.

But let's say you have, I don't
know, 10,000 liters of liquid

and you don't have a brand.
Somebody will buy it, but the

price should be, I don't know,
€10,000.

But when you build the brand
really, really well, like

suddenly somebody can can buy it
with like 10,000 or 20,000.

So you kind of have to have
bolts and its quality of the

liquid has a huge impact.
But also the perceived

experience on that on the liquid
is also affected by the brand.

I think it creates more value
than the liquid.

But I am coming from the brand
side myself.

Tell us the story of your brand
and your liquids.

How, how did it start?
I mean, I, I'm biased because I,

you know, and I also saw the
video that is super funny.

I will put a link in the
description because I think

everybody should, should watch
it.

And what struck me there was
really the interlink of liquid

provenance.
You know, like it's a bit of a

mix of everything that I really,
really loved.

And I think it explains the the
company philosophy and the

distillery philosophy very well.
The story of Kura stars in sauna

as most of the stories in in
Finland.

The year was 2012.
Me and some other of my Co

founders were sauna.
One of us had brought a bottle

of rye whiskey in that sauna.
There was also a time when there

wasn't like rye whiskey wasn't
really a thing in Finland yet.

Maybe not worldwide either.
But as rice like essential part

of city's culture.
We decided that somebody's do

rye whiskey in Finland.
Then we drank a little bit more

and we decided that we'd be the
people to do it, which sounded

completely crazy as nobody had
any experience in spirits

business.
I'm engineered by trade.

I did stand up comedy as sort of
side gig, but no marketing or

the spirits industry background
whatsoever.

And the same goes with like all
four of our Co founders, maybe

the closest things to an
experience is our head distiller

had brewed beer as a student for
a student party and our current

CEO had built a logistics
company so he knew something

about moving things across
borders.

Other than that, we had to learn
everything.

And so that was 2012.
We got the idea then we needed a

place.
We searched for the place in

many locations.
Miko, one of our founders had

invited us to use of Kuda in
Ostrobathnia, which is known for

growing rye and we went to see
his family farm for location and

eventually didn't use that.
But there was an old dairy that

had like all the infrastructure
for building a distillery or

like kind of in place.
So we found our home and the

first liquid that we did was in
2013.

We distilled that in a small
distillery and that new make

because we really couldn't tell
whether it's equality or not if

you're not in spirits industry
Moonshine in order to get some

feedback, me got smuggled that
into the whiskey fair and had a

couple of industry experts taste
it and we got really good

feedback on that.
Sort of gave us the confidence

to tip our own money in and and
build a distillery.

Wow, that's a that's a real
bottom up story that.

Is exactly that, I have to thank
my father and mother because

they get like they backed up my
loan that I needed to cheap my

part for the distillery.
So without them I wouldn't be

here and probably that I
wouldn't be here either.

That's a great story.
And how so you mentioned rye.

It was a bit of a shock for me
with the lack of white bread in

in Finland and everything,
every, everything was rye bread

in.
Even in McDonald's, there were

sandwiches with rye breads for
me, like, you know, rice very, I

mean, it's not Italian at all.
I know, I know how it's called

in Italy because I had to, I had
to Google it when, when I moved

there to understand what it,
what it was meant by that.

What I love about this story is
that, you know, it's super local

in the sense that, you know,
like rye makes such a big part

of, you know, Finnish culture,
Finnish food, and it's really

something that runs in your
blood.

You took that kind of route
from, you know, like to to make

something that actually wasn't
really existing in the country.

Yes, and by the way, I'm shocked
of the lack of dark rich when

I'm abroad.
So it goes both ways.

Rice such a like in the crop
part of the of the food culture.

In order to justify our
existence, we felt that we need

to somehow contribute to the
world of whiskey, makes the the

whiskey culture richer.
And we've seen like some

distilleries that essentially
made whiskey that you could make

in Scotland, but they just made
it in geographically different

place.
And we felt that that was a

little bit silly.
So you want to take something

that is special for that area
and build the liquid and, and

made it the brand on top of
that.

And for us, it was nice
naturally, right.

You mentioned that there's a big
food culture around rye.

And that also means that the
right that we have is on fire

quality because it's not made
for animal seed like in some

parts of the of the US is
actually like controlled.

And we do have rye mold
available because it's, it's

used in like a Easter dish and
some beers, which is not the

case for all the locations.
So we decided that we're going

to do 100% right.
It also makes sure that we easy

for us to communicate what we're
about and it helps us focus.

We on top of rye whiskey, we do
other spirits, but everything is

100% right and that's something
that we don't give in in that

principle.
I was talking to Nick Gillet

from Mangrove in UK, the
distribution company, and, and

he was mentioning his business
partner was saying like, you

know, that it's what you say no
to that defines your business

and defines your strategy.
And I, I really love that quote

because, you know, it's quite
clear.

We do right.
We do 100% right.

You know, it's not about 51% and
makes it very, you know, like

people can agree or disagree
with it, you know, with the

philosophy, but it's a clear way
and it's clear to communicate,

you know, and I'm a big fan of
what I call the traditional

occasions.
Know when when you're talking

about drinking occasions,
because if you think about it

and something that nobody really
talks about is that all the

drinks from beer, wine, milk to
to anything to spirits, to

whiskeys, you know, they are
connected to the food culture.

You know, historically it was a
way of consuming food.

Basically, if you think from the
Egyptians, you know, and the

Babylonians down to us, you
know, through the Roman and

Greek, Romans and Greeks, you
know, like, so it, it is a way

to preserve food and, and it's
automatically an accompaniment.

And, and all the trainings that
I've done when I, when I was

living in Copenhagen in, in
Kasberg, the guy that was doing

the, the course, like the beer
tasting course was, was always

saying, if you're thinking how
to match this beer, look at the

food culture in that country.
Because any drinks that is

invented is optimized for that
cuisine.

Then it goes modern and then it
becomes more of a novel cuisine

and you know, New Nordic, the
fancy Italian food and you know,

all these kind of things.
But then ultimately mezcal goes

with Mexican food, Italian
amaros goes with Italian food.

And it's quite a link.
And what I like about it is the

clarity on what you was you were
doing in saying, OK, like we

don't want to be and like, let's
say a Scotch not made in

Scotland or any anything, any
other, you know, whiskey of the

big nations of the whiskey
producing countries.

But we want to add and
contribute to it, which is

another of my points that I
really love.

That is, how to bridge
categories and not look at

categories from a very, let's
say, puristic perspective.

Definitely.
And there's a couple of

interesting brands things that I
could touch on to that.

And one of one of them is that I
think that there's like kind of

two kinds of liquids in there or
two kinds of new brands.

There are piggyback brands.
They want to take an existing

category that is on the rise and
they just do, let's say, another

miscall, another something.
There are more takers than

givers, and then there's
contributing brands that want to

do something more interesting,
like part a new trend or make

the world of whiskey more
interesting.

In our case it's much harder
route, much much harder route,

but I think it's more fulfilling
and feels more meaningful as

it's not just about moving
leaders on my leader cases, it's

more about like reading culture
that just happens to and be made

made possible through 9 liter
cases.

I agree totally with you because
what you're creating, if I

understand it right, like it's
what I would call like a mini, a

mini category or like a niche
category or, you know, I now

call them bottom up category,
category within the category.

But it it's is not only within,
you know, it's called whiskey.

So you automatically think you
sit within whiskey, but then if

you look at it from a taste
profile perspective, you know,

starting from rye, then you can
start from an organoelectric

perspective and then you could
tap into many other categories.

Because if you actually think
about it, the old brands that we

know now, even Scotch when it
started or Irish whiskey when it

started, I mean Aquavita when
when it started, like they were

all like categories on its own.
And then they got big in a way

that then they became a category
and now they can be easily

tracked on IWSR.
But you know, back in the days

there was probably no such
category now.

So in I agree with what you say,
you know, like the first movers

are the initiator of something
that is totally crazy and nobody

knows how to drink it.
But then like when you start to

really build the occasion and if
you think of, for example,

trends like the espresso martini
or or the Negroni and the boom

that they've had in the last few
years, you never know it.

What was it the coffee liquor
that pushed the espresso martini

or was it the 1st mover on the
espresso martini that made

espresso martini so big that
then everybody wanted to

contribute in it?
No.

And with Negroni is the same
with bitters, with Amari, with

red vermouth.
You know who did something and

there must be someone who was
the the crazy guy that has that

idea and drags everybody on that
crazy journey, so to say, you

know?
That is absolutely true.

If I remember right, this book
called This Fit will never sell,

and it's by the guy who invented
Bailey's and he did that when he

was like, I don't know, 23 or
something and never copped like

throughout his career, never did
anything bigger, which I think

is kind of like Tratica as well.
But then actually like started

from a need of doing something
with a lot of milk and then they

just created that like creamy
cure and made it big.

Another thing that is
fascinating on like a brand

standpoint is that most of
brands in the spirits world are

kind of like single brands for
category.

That's like our back for
whiskey.

Let's say there is Henrix 14 and
so forth, but there's very

little like cross category
brands like us like good at us,

right whiskey, but we also do
gin cream to cure RT DS.

And I think that's because
historically you would have the

local like Terror or spirit.
The company would do that like

no, that's too accurate for 200
years and then a bigger company

buys and you end up in a like
House of brands.

When you start with distillery,
you don't have to follow that

way.
However, what we've learned is

that this kind of structure
works really well the closer you

are at the distillery.
Like you can have huge amount of

schools close to the distillery
and categories, but the further

away you go, more cost like the
communication becomes and like

you have to be more and more
economical of your

communication.
And that usually means that you

kind of have to be 1 category
brand first in faraway markets.

OK.
That's very, that's very

interesting what you're saying
and how do you use it?

So like when you are
communicating, you're

communicating as cuter
distillery rather than a

specific brand or the rye
whiskey or the the gin or you

like you, you communicate as a
distillery as such.

Yeah, we communicate distillery
first, then category or or

product, usually product and
category.

Our products are named like Gura
Gin, Gura Rye malt, Gura with

smoke, Walt Whiskey, Pea smoke
and so forth.

So we have the distillery name
or we make the product names

using distillery name and then
the category or category and

something else.
And that way we make sure that

we built a distillery brand.
We're starting to see people

that have like all of our SKUs
in their home bar.

Yes, they are fan of the
distillery, not just fan of the

whiskey that we make or so
forth.

That also brings to the point
that being a curator, no.

And not only a distillery
because you know, in the end,

when you build the brand as a
distillery, it's like a seal of

approval.
No, because then of course I've

tried the gene.
I liked it.

I've tried the Ray Whiskey.
I liked it.

You know, I tried this bulky one
and I liked it and then all of a

sudden it's like whatever they
do, I like it, or at least I

want to give it a chance.
No, So it's almost like makes me

think when people open
restaurants.

No.
And they are successful in one

restaurant and two restaurants
and three restaurants.

Even if the concepts are
different.

Then all of a sudden you're
like, OK, I know what these guys

do.
It could be a pizzeria, it could

be a Nordic food, it can be
burger joints.

But because this guy or girl is
behind the concept, so I know

how they select things.
And it doesn't matter if it's a

burger or pizza.
I trust them because I I know

that the way they select the
ingredients, the way they select

the staff, the way they select
their chefs, I trust them.

And whatever they do, it will be
successful in that sense

because, you know, people trust
it.

You've mentioned trust and that
is extremely important in

premium spirit because if you
compare premium spirits and

beer, the cost of trial is much
higher in spirits.

Like you buy a craft beer, you
might maybe pay, I don't know,

three to €5 per can and that's
your investment to find out

whether that's that's a good
spirit or a good beer.

But if you buy a spirit and
that's easy like 40 to €80 or

like 10 times as high.
And that's why I think brand in

spirits and especially whiskey
becomes usually important

because people have to have a
lot of trust on the producer or

distillery or or the brand that
this is a good liquid.

For us, it was kind of natural
that we went through that like

distillery brand route partially
because we are based in Finland

and legal terror or Sinland kind
of dictates that you can't do

product advertisement.
So we didn't have a way to get

our like word out there by
talking about our product.

But what was allowed is to talk
about the distillery.

So it makes sense for for us to
highlight the distillery and

build the trust there.
And then when people see the

distillery, maybe they have the
trust to product as well.

Finnish regulations are always a
little bit crazy, but crazy in a

good way.
Some parts are great.

I think Germany has for example,
has much more regulation on

produce like production of the
spirits and that's because they

haven't had like state control
system.

But Finland, we went through
prohibition and then for 60

years all the spirits were
product produced by the state,

sold through state outlets.
So the legislation on, on

manufacturing spirits is
actually like it was designed

for a state owned and controlled
various production, which makes

this makes it easier for for at
least our like production group.

But it's bit of a hell for the
for the marketing people and

brand people like me.
You you mentioned like the money

at stake to trying a new
product.

That's where the so-called
liquid and lips comes into play.

You know, that is the easy way
to get into the consumers

repertoire.
Now how do you play with that in

terms of you know distribution
for example, like did you, did

you approach I mean like being
finished and being made in

Finland and with the finish
ingredients and so on.

Like I am assuming I don't know
that you started from the what I

call the home turf?
Yeah, we started with with the

home turf and the distillation
starts and started in 2014.

We essentially were like one
full time and two-part time

founders working for the
distillery for the first year.

The way that we started to grow
the brand was that we

essentially like build a small
pop up bar to get people to try

our liquid experience, what we
are all about.

And we put a lot of effort on
like designing the menu stories

behind each string and so forth.
So that we got kind of got the

work out and that was great.
But it's like limited impact

marketing thing.
Excellent by the way, because we

essentially didn't lose or we
didn't invest any money.

We got everything back from
running the bar with our friends

at Son of a Bunch in Helsinki.
But then what really made it for

us was when our team was
selected as best in category for

tonic genes in IWC.
And because Finland is so sort

of strict on regulation, we
managed to make it into news big

time.
And as nobody else can

advertise, we broke the category
like completely.

We gained like 13% of the
finished gene market like

overnights.
Wow.

And where where was that bar
that you opened there?

It was in.
Helsinki, it was in Helsinki in

in Compton, Finland, like 17
seater very small, but I think

it did the trick and it was
small enough so that we could

fill it with our own friends and
who then brought their other

friends.
Yes, they know a guy who has

this bar and.
So it was almost like breweries

do with tap rooms.
You know, like you build, you

build the bar to to sample your
products.

That is exactly right.
You created the Apple store of

CUDA Distillery.
One of my dreams certainly have

the budget and and everything to
do it really well.

My background is in product
development and industrial

design, so I love to like build
philosophy into the world

through design.
For example, when you have

whiskey, there's so many things
that you could do differently so

that the experience is much
nicer.

I think whiskey is in a sense
still like in APC era where you

have to know a lot about like
the hurt is the numbers, how

much memory it has and so forth.
And I don't think that anyone

has managed to to do something
that's just like work works and

gets those kind of things out of
the way of enjoyment.

For some people, numbers and all
that is part of the enjoyment.

But I think there's much wider
category or like much wider

group of people that just want
to have like a really good

experience and not to spend once
in advance and like rehearsing

the pronunciation of the
distillery name before you go to

the bar and and manage to do a
perfect brand.

Call.
Let's talk about this, about the

simplification I saw.
I mean, I remember when I spoke

to you like you also wanted to,
you know, to make it simpler,

remove how intimidating, you
know, the whiskey world was not

for many for many consumers.
How do you recruit people into

your product like you know, from
a messaging?

So how to explain it?
And how?

And what do you mean by removing
that intimidation?

One of our sort of core values
is communality, like bringing

people together.
We wanted to manifest that in in

our products by like designing
whiskeys that both the

connoisseur and newcomer could
enjoy together and it would be a

great experience for both, which
is a like really hefty target.

And the way that we approach
that was on from the liquid side

that we use like 100% rye and
predominantly new barrels where

we essentially build big pillars
of taste like vanilla, caramel,

those kind of face that you
would usually associate maybe

with bourbon.
On top of that, we have long

fermentation time with Bill's
complexity.

We use also more interesting
barrels.

We managed to create like layers
of complexity that is

interesting for people who might
have made that into like two

simple tastes.
And that's where you can go back

to that liquid as your
unnecessorship evolves and you

can find new things each time.
So that's from the liquid side,

like the design or whiskey
philosophy.

Design wise, if you take a
friend that knows nothing about

whiskey and bring that person
blindfolded and open a blindfold

in front of a, a whiskey like
that person is completely lost.

There's so many things that you
have to learn the meaning behind

like, OK, that is an highly
whiskey.

What doesn't highly risky mean
If you're in whiskey, you know

that there's saltwater feed moke
in that comes as part of melting

process and that affects the
taste of that whiskey and it

comes from this area and so
forth.

It's almost like another
language that you kind of have

to learn in order to enjoy and
that world.

And it's also look might look a
little bit alien, like bottle

shapes, coloring and so forth.
Everything has historical roots,

but that's there's been more and
more expert.

It has created unintended
complexity in many cases.

So us as a newcomer for our
liquid who tapped into ripe for

our messaging and visual design,
we tapped into like Nordic

minimals.
For people who go to IKEA, they

might find our packaging and
visual world being typography

heavy, something that is easier
to approach and that creates

certain ease of entrance to our
brand.

Lastly, Nordic minimalism can
get a little bit boring at some

point.
So we use like rough nudity and

humor to sort of balance that
and making making it more

interesting and and also more
lovable.

Like it's not sterile.
It's there's some like really

cool things that communicate
quality and that we actually

mean business, but there's also
that fun and curvy side that

makes us more interesting and
approachable.

And what I would like to know is
like, how do you play with rye,

you know, being right at the
center of everything you do?

How does that play from, let's
say, a taste profile perspective

and drinking occasion
perspective?

Is, is there something we
mentioned before, like I don't

know Finnish food or Nordic
food?

Or is there something that treat
you hook on as a foot in the

door?
Or, you know, how does that play

into?
When is the right occasion for

drinking each kind of SKU, so to
say?

That is a a great question.
So in the video that you

mentioned earlier, we had kind
of like one liner liners for

each product, like a good agenda
gin for finish summary in a

bottle, but it's kind of
communicates both face profile

and occasion.
So it's a summary drink and

there's a certain like freshness
for this associated with that

dart in the gene for when the
weather sucks.

So it kind of describes that
occasion, but also like what

kind of seal that gin is.
And it's definitely not the

summer, summer din gin for
autumn and winter.

And you can have it hot as well.
The cream liqueur is something

that we designed to be had with
coffee.

So we intentionally didn't
overload it with taste so that

you can fine tune your cream
liqueur by adding a little bit

of coffee in it.
And that like built into that

Swedish thing, having something
sweet with your your coffee.

When it comes to our whiskeys,
rye build certain like pepper,

like it gives peppery after out,
but in our case, it's not as

pronounced as in column still
distilled grain rye if we use

potsils and molded rye.
So there's more complexity.

These kind of like brown spirits
were mostly consumed in Finland

like as kind of like an
aperitid.

Or if you go and do outdoorsy
stuff like hike, hunt, fish and

so forth, you would have
something that like we're

Germans would use schnapps.
Like we would have maybe cognac

in the future.
Definitely more and more of our

whiskey.
I really like how you separated

and you know, like you, you have
that occasion in mind when you

are building the products and
it's, you know, I'm, I'm a big

fan of these iterations now.
So it's always like there must

be a starting point somewhere.
But then, you know, it fits into

each other now because you can
create a liquid with an occasion

in mind.
And then the occasion also

feedbacks into the liquid back
so that in the next batch, you

know, until you actually find
the right way.

And then as you said, we didn't
over stress the taste profile

because we, we want you to have
it with coffee.

There is a lot of this trial and
error kind of thing until you

name it or at least you're happy
with that outcome.

No, but there is also like for
me, very important to give some

guidance.
It doesn't mean that, you know,

there's no one that drinks it
without coffee, but at the same

time, you know, you give a
little bit of a, of a hint and

you'll give a little bit of a
reminder for, OK, that's that

moment of the day where I can
have this one, you know, or

that's that kind of food or
drink or weather or, you know,

and, and everybody can have it
in a sort of different way and

you can be flexible.
But at least going back to the

simplicity in the communication,
you know, if you can explain it

in that sense, you know, if you
can explain what does it mean to

be a whiskey for when the
weather sucks.

Maybe that translate into a
fuller body or a fuller taste or

get certain kind of notes that
reminds you of that.

Because the assumption is that
then you may have like heavier

food and maybe you need
something different.

I, I remember when I was working
with SAV Miller, you know, I was

selling in Finland and in the
Nordics, I was selling at the

same time, Peroni and Pilsner
Rourkell, 2 totally different

brands.
They're both tapping on the

intrinsics of the brand on the
liquid, but then Brazilian lager

has maize into it.
So obviously there is that

elements of the taste profile.
And if you go back to the foods,

you know, it works better with
Mediterranean kind of food, you

know, so lighter, you know, like
a more like a Mediterranean diet

or it could be the, you know,
ham and cheese and mozzarella

and whatever olives while a pill
Seroquel that is made in Pilsen

in Czech Republic.
I mean, obviously there's no

fish in the diet.
And I always joke that Czech

vegetarians eat chicken, yes,
because it's very meat forward

as a, as a cuisine.
So automatically, you know, you

can have that.
And, and then for me, if I'm

sitting on a terrace outside and
it's like 35° or 40°, I want to

have a Peroni.
I don't want to have a

Pillservoquel.
Yes, but if you're and it's like

sitting in front of that fire
and touring to like autumn storm

outside, you might go for this
network well.

Exactly.
And and that's exactly where it

is.
So there is this element of

education that consumer needs.
No, and that's where bartenders

come into play, where shop
owners come into play into

helping you to navigate that
narrative, so to say, because

also like they don't know what
they don't know, you know, like

they just like go on a shelf and
buy a bottle and they have no

idea what it means.
And I love what you were saying

about the rye that gives these
peppery notes because otherwise,

you know, then they get stuck
into OK rye.

What does that mean?
It's easy to get into the trap

of the Isley, you know, you
know, because then it's it's

easier because at least if you
know what to expect.

But probably it's easier to
communicate rye to a Finnish or

Nordic audience than to, you
know, Southern European

audience.
Right.

I had a chat with an Italian
gentleman and he didn't speak

English, though there was a
translator and I thought, all

about, right, I speak some
Spanish.

So I mustache the conversation
with the translator and the

person.
That's like, right, what's that?

And the translator said it's
what we feed to the horses.

That is fantastic starting point
to get someone interested in a

super premium brand that you
make out of horse feed.

And what what is always
fascinating for me is basically

how to translate that message
because I always explain it like

there is the founders and they
share the same philosophy,

probably with some misalignment
that that at some point gets

aligned on a manifesto of, you
know, of the brand.

But then, you know, then there's
the employee, the first round of

employees, then it starts to be
third party distributors, then

bartender shop owners, brand
ambassadors and and so forth.

So it's a little bit like that
game the the wireless telephone

that you play as a kid that you
whisper one word and then after

15 kids, you know, the word is
totally different because either

one smart fella was making fun
as Witcher or maybe, you know,

the first one didn't really get
it or the third one didn't

really get it.
Now, how do you ensure that

communication stays, let's say
as consistent as possible to the

to the sources?
That's a great question.

And I think the manifesto film
that you mentioned earlier is

probably like one of the better
communications because it's

something that kind of explains
like all the product in a

nutshell.
It communicates the likes feel

of the brand there are and it's
entertaining so that it's easy

to share, which means that even
if we don't have direct contact

for you, like for example, I
don't know distributors fails

for us.
Most likely they will watch that

film, maybe even show that to
one of their accounts and that

account when they need the
consumer, they have that like

direct message from us.
So it kind of like works as a

like end consumer communication,
but also thought of aligning

everyone in the pipeline the
same direction.

But it's hard.
Like we've tried to also the

police strategy where like
everything needs to be approved

and then you take away the
creativity and it's hard to know

what is localization and
necessary and what is something

that person just likes that
those kind of things and he

wants to how self fulfilled by
doing an activation.

I think the best strategy is to
the like soft power approach

where you just do things that
are so compelling that they

become kind of legends.
And that's how you create that

word of mouth and see all this
probably one of the hardest

thing you can do if you're
entrepreneur in spirits.

I've been on both sides in my
past of and in my present as

well.
I've been a policeman and I've

been a thief in the drinks
industry.

I'm much more of a believer of a
legal system that somehow makes

sense so that you don't
incentivize people to break the

law, but also makes sense for
them to respect the law because

otherwise you cannot put
policemen everywhere.

You know, like it in in it must.
It must make sense.

And it has to be as simple as
possible so that that message

doesn't get hijacked or or at
least you know, partially, or at

least people don't say that.
Rise for horses.

I'm fine with that side.
I think hardest to serve the

best.
You're absolutely right.

And I think you need certain
amount of oversight.

If somebody's doing something
that's like really destructive

for the brand and goes like
completely against the values

like targeting minors or using
sex or like promoting drunk and

driving or whatever, kind of
borderline in some countries

illegal, illegal things.
So those who kind of have to

just like nip in the butt.
But then when it comes to like

localization of the brand, using
the same communication doesn't

necessarily give the same end
user impact.

But what you want is kind of
saying like same end user impact

seal, which means that you might
need to change the messaging a

little bit so that it's
understood in that culture's

context.
For example.

And I think Rice perfect
example, like in Finland,

commitment makes complete
completely sense.

We don't have to explain it, but
outside Finland we kind of have

to somehow associate right with
something ourselves before it

becomes meaningful for that
audience.

What are some examples of how
you use like, you know, did you

go from a face profile
perspective like you know, like

you explain how this or you know
what they're supposed to taste?

Or do you analyze some local
food that resembles that taste?

Or how?
How do you do that?

From liquid side, I think it's
kind of easy because the

ingredient is expected to have
an impact on the taste and then

you people are curious anyways
to know what does it mean that

it is made out of Ryan?
How does it impact taste?

What is harder is that we use
Rio like also in like cultural

communication, we kind of need
to assign some values to rye and

the SAS that we've used is that
like rice to toughest, like

softest grain to distill.
So there's that like, I don't

know, almost like Lutheran.
You have to suffer before you

get a good change in your life.
And it makes sense because it is

harder to distill and it grows
on like hard, like hard

conditions.
And that in a sense builds to

like entrepreneurship story.
Like entrepreneurship is hard

rice like.
Race hard and it also makes it

capable for winning something
that was hard to win or or you

can like translate through a
little bit of a stretch to to

the experience and an occasion
as well.

I like this, let's say the
bridge now from being hard to

grow because I mean like the the
soil and the conditions are hard

and it's the only cereal that
grows in Finland or is one of

the few that succeeds with your
welcoming weather.

Well, we grow and with private
change more and more varieties.

But actually that looks like
interesting small detail on

winter rye would probably became
popular because the winters were

really hard and winter rye you
will saw during autumn, which

means that it's not like you
can't access it.

So if your family is starving,
like somebody might die, but you

don't eat next year's rain that
you need to saw in the in the

spring.
So that sort of paints a picture

on how hard it can or it like it
used to be not every year, but

like some years.
That's all for today.

Remember that this is a two-part
episode 66 and 67, so feel free

to listen to that one as well.
One last thing, if you enjoy

this podcast, you will also like
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