Defining Hospitality

This week, Dan Ryan sits down with John O'Sullivan, hospitality executive, published poet, painter, and Regional Vice President & General Manager at Four Seasons Resort Punta Mita, to make the case that great hospitality isn't a service standard, it's a soul practice. A GM at just 25 who started peeling potatoes in a small Irish hotel at 12, John has spent over three decades opening and leading luxury properties across seven countries, building a career on the radical belief that belonging is borderless, failure is just success in progress, and heart intelligence will always outperform artificial intelligence.

About the Guest: 
On this episode, Dan Ryan sits down with John O'Sullivan, Regional Vice President and General Manager at Four Seasons Resort Punta Mita in Mexico. With 31 years at Four Seasons and properties across Cairo, Bali, Jakarta, and beyond, John has spent his career quietly proving that the most powerful management tool isn't a system, it's sincerity. When he's not leading a team of more than 1,000 warriors, he's painting, publishing poetry, or stealing cookies from his director of rooms' office. He moves through the world the same way he runs his hotel, with curiosity, warmth, and zero interest in being the most important person in the room.

Chapters:
00:35 Meet John O Sullivan
02:25 Defining Hospitality And Belonging
03:06 From Ireland To GM At 25
04:18 Making Room For Others
10:30 Mentors And Ripple Effects
16:22 Travel Memories And Magic Details
20:56 Why Punta Mita Wins
26:21 Creativity Process And Failure
34:02 Potato Peeler Origins
34:34 Curiosity Becomes Calling
37:06 Heart Intelligence Hospitality
38:13 Creativity Fuels Positivity
39:14 Recharging Through Adventure
41:56 Fun as Leadership
42:56 Vulnerability and Forgiveness
47:46 Egypt Opening Hope Story
54:33 Future of Authentic Luxury

Quote of the Show:
"Hospitality is the almost sacred act of seeing another human being and saying, without words, that you authentically belong here." - John O’Sullivan

Building a hotel, brand, or guest experience? Reach out to Dan on LinkedIn or hit reply on the Substack to share what you’re working on.

Links:

🏨✨ Defining Hospitality is Sponsored by Berman Falk https://www.bermanfalk.com/ - Check out their impact page! 🌍🌱 https://www.bermanfalk.com/impact/ 

Ways to Tune In: 

Creators and Guests

Host
Dan Ryan
Host of Defining Hospitality
Producer
Serena Johnson

What is Defining Hospitality?

Welcome to Defining Hospitality, the podcast focused on highlighting the most influential figures in the hospitality industry. In each episode we provide 1 on 1, in depth interviews with experts in the industry to learn what hospitality means to them. We feature expert advice on working in the industry, behind the scenes looks at some of your favorite brands, and in depth explorations of unique hospitality projects.

Defining Hospitality is hosted by Founder and CEO of Agency 967, Dan Ryan. With over 30 years of experience in hospitality, Dan brings his expertise and passion to each episode as he delves into the latest trends and challenges facing the industry.

Episodes are released every week on Wednesday mornings.

To listen to episodes, visit https://www.defininghospitality.live/ or subscribe to Defining Hospitality wherever you get your podcasts.

DH - John O'Sullivan
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[00:00:00] What I do is inconsequential. Why I do what I do is I get to shorten people's journeys every day. What I love about our hospitality industry is that it's our mission to make people feel cared for while on their journeys. Together, we'll explore what hospitality means in the built environment, in business, and in our daily lives.

I'm Dan Ryan, and this is Defining Hospitality

This podcast is sponsored by BermanFall Hospitality Group, a design-driven furniture manufacturer who specializes in custom case goods and seating for hotel guest rooms

Dan Ryan: Today's guest is a hospitality executive, global hotel leader, and creative artist. He spent nearly four decades leading luxury hotels around the world. had his first job as a general manager at 25 years old. He's also a published author and painter, blending creativity with leadership and hospitality. I'll be sure to put links to his books at the end, so be sure to check the [00:01:00] site. He's also the regional vice president and general manager at the Four Seasons Resort Punta Mita in Mexico. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome John O. Sullivan. Welcome, John

John O'Sullivan: Happy to be here and lovely to be part of the journey

Dan Ryan: I'm very happy for you to be here as well part of my journey for a bunch of different reasons. Number one, I think Four Seasons globally really sets the bar for service, experience, hospitality. of my mentors was Stan Bromley, and his son Mark was on here, and Michael Donof as well, and I just love digging in and learning from people who I perceive as doing it among the best in the world.

So thank you for that. Number two, you're in Punta Mita. I got married in Sayulita just up the road, uh, in nine-- no, 2000...

oh, my wife's And one

me. [00:02:00] 20- 2002. Oh my God. Sorry, Alexa. Um, but it's changed so much down there, and I wanna dig into that. And number three, one of my best friends, Trevor Klein, loves your hotel.

He travels all over the world, and he goes to your hotel multiple times a year and says, "You guys do it the best of anywhere," and he has very exquisite taste. So shout out to Trevor. Shout out to you, John. And so before we get into everything,

Yeah

I tee you up with all of these accolades and just adoration, he-- throwing olive branches at you and heaping all this praise, what does hospitality mean to you?

John O'Sullivan: I think hospitality is the almost sacred act

Hmm.

Seeing another human being and saying without words that you authentically belong here. I think it's a, a soul practice, and I think it's a heart practice, and I think it's something that in a lot of cases comes very naturally to the [00:03:00] warriors that live the journey each and every day

Dan Ryan: I love that. How did you know how to become a general manager at 25 years old? That seems very young to me to become a general manager

John O'Sullivan: Yeah, it's actually too young in, in hindsight. Um, I, I started working in hotels when I was 12 in Ireland, taking, uh, the eyes out of potatoes in a very small hotel, which would've made me a very original serial killer.

Mm-hmm.

Every summer, uh, every holiday, I just became obsessed by the journey of what hotels were and how you create a home away from home, charge people money from it, and they leave with just memories or mostly just memories.

Um, and I then decided to do a degree in hotel management. Um, and I just loved the fact of being able to travel to other countries, being able to see other [00:04:00] countries, because hospitality is truly about the portal into other people's cultures, other people's practices, and realizing that, you know, if more people traveled, if more people experienced hospitality, there'd be an awful lot less judgment in the world, and I think an awful lot more enjoyment

Dan Ryan: And I think that that enjoyment and seeing others, as you've said, as they are and giving that sense of belonging, it's very resonant for me just this week I hosted a dinner in Washington, DC for a bunch of, um, on the brand and design side for Marriott. And a, it's a, it's a really interesting dinner where everyone goes around, there's one conversation, and there's a prompt.

But the, the theme of this dinner, it was belonging. So was, "Tell us about a time someone made room for you when they didn't have to." Right? And I think-- I know I mentioned Stan [00:05:00] Bromley earlier, but I met him at my mother-in-law's retirement party, and I told him I was in the hotel business furnishing hotels.

I was living in San Francisco, and he's like, "You know what? have tea, ha-have coffee with me. I'd love to take you around." It was right when the, the new Four Seasons on Market Street opened. And I'd say, I don't know, two or three times a year I'd meet up with him, we'd walk around, he'd have coffee, and I just picked up so much from him. And to me that, that's an incredible idea of belonging because he didn't have to make room for me, he just did. it really impacted me, and I felt connected me to something much longer. And I've never really been in hotel operations at all, but just to see how h- how he would go and take notes. He had these little note cards that inspired me to always carry note cards to take notes of everything I see and not-- was interesting is he would never reprimand the person, like if there was a fingerprint on the [00:06:00] door or the handle, he, uh, he wouldn't reprimand the guy at the door or the gal at the door. would take that as an-- Because he would feel that the manager of that person would miss an opportunity for leadership, so he would bring the whole list to the manager of that person give them an opportunity. And I-- One of the things that came out of this dinner and this prompt, it was all about storytelling, 'cause everyone had a story to tell. if I were to ask you about a time that someone made room for you that they didn't have to, and how that impacted you, what, what story do you have for us?

John O'Sullivan: You know, i-i-ironically, um, first of all, I think is that, you know, belonging is about creating the space for others of where you are an echo of that transaction as opposed to being the lead actor.

Mm-hmm.

Belonging is about a sense of giving to others and creating an opportunity or a runway for others. Mine, ironically, if I think of belonging, when I joined Four Seasons in 1995, I [00:07:00] was sent, uh, on a three-month orientation program because typically, you know, Four Seasons, uh, do not bring in people as general managers.

And I was sent to New York, uh, and guess who I met in New York? Stan Bromley.

Dan Ryan: No, but he wasn't working there, was he?

John O'Sullivan: he was the ORVP for the, uh, Four Seasons in New York,

Dan Ryan: Oh,

John O'Sullivan: and a guy called Herbert Pleisnik met me in New York and took me to my first, uh, Jewish deli in New York, 'cause I'd never been to a Jewish deli, and I had told him this, and I had lived in the Middle East before, et cetera.

So he continued that journey of, uh, creating a space at the table, or in this case, in the queue, uh, to be able to show me around. Uh, so ironically is that, uh, Stan's legacy, uh, which Mark very [00:08:00] strongly, uh, has the traditional values but with a more contemporary patina, delivers the sort of the Bromleyite, uh, values, uh, and they continue to this day.

Dan Ryan: first of all, which d- which, which deli did you go to? Do you remember?

John O'Sullivan: I knew you were going to ask me, but I can't remember 'cause I was trying to figure out who is this dude, uh, 'cause his language was a little bit, um, interesting. And, uh, I, I don't know, but it was beautiful. It was an amazing experience, and I belonged. And I, I, you know, I think, uh, after 31 years, uh, with Four Seasons...

And this really isn't a prompt for Four Seasons, it's more of a prompt for positive humanity. Um, we create environments of authentic belonging, which really start with the way that we treat each others and how we treat our, our staff. And, you know, [00:09:00] the-- it's an overused rule of, you know, treat others as you wish to be treated.

Uh, you know, in-- on my journey and in my last 31 years and having worked all over the world and having opened our first Four Seasons in the Middle East in Cairo 27 years ago, um, the storytelling is all about authentic belonging, and it's about creating that safe environment for people to be themselves.

And that safe environment is to treat people with respect, dignity, uh, the, uh, very accurate definition of what boundaries are, and ensuring that they are applied with sincere consistency without a political affiliation. And I think, you know, uh, that is-- that's what belonging is. And whenever I think of Cairo, I think of Bali, I think of Jakarta, I think of Mexico, I think of San Diego, it's the same-- it's the s- they're the same [00:10:00] portals to allow people to authentically be themselves.

And I think that sincere belonging and the personification of it truly is the-- a non-judgment and just allows people to be authentically themselves without having any labels of what their sexual orientation is, their religion, their ethnicity. Belonging, belonging is borderless if applied sincerely and with authenticity

Dan Ryan: One other thing, and I've only heard this anecdotally going on with that theme of belonging, is I also heard, and I don't know if this is true, but for any kind of up-and-comer in the Four Seasons e- ecosystem, usually they would go work under Stan and learn from Stan. And I'm sure there were other people globally, but maybe that was just a Western United States thing or something else. But as you were in Bali and [00:11:00] Cairo and all over the world, who were, who were other memorable mentors that you had made space for you on your journey within Four Seasons and learning to do things the best?

John O'Sullivan: Interesting. I, I, I had, um, a wonderful area president, uh, called Wolf Hengst. Uh, and Wolf, uh, then became, uh, president for Six Senses Hotels. Um, and Wolf just had this ability that he was always accessible to you. And ironically, there's a connection with Stan, 'cause when I was living in Bali, Stan had never been to Asia, had never been to that part of the world.

And Wolf and he were very good friends. And I remember hosting a dinner for the both of them in my house in Bali. This is going back twenty-two, twenty-two, twenty-three years ago. And seeing Stan in a position of, [00:12:00] uh... for he wasn't the, he wasn't the main fiddle player. He was the, he was the fiddle player to Wolf and to me, u-understanding the Bali culture and stuff.

Um, so there, there's been people like that, uh, punctuated or sprinkled throughout one's career. And a lot of times they're not permanent features. They're a little bit like waves, high tides that come in and out, that make an impression, that make a new level on the sand. Um, a-and I think that that's really, again, when you think of mentoring or you think of coaching, it, it should almost-- it shouldn't necessarily be a committee of people.

It's events, and it can be over a short period of time or a longer period of time, and they come in and out when they're needed. Uh, and, and if I think of my role, uh, you know, and I think of two [00:13:00] general managers and one area president we have within Four Seasons that I hired as a non-English speaking security guard, uh, and a back server in Bali, in, in, sorry, in Cairo.

Um, and you know, they'll tell me to this day about, "Oh my God, you won't believe the impact you've had." I think the most important part of mentoring or coaching is that not knowing the impact you have, because if you know the impact you have, there's almost a level of subjectivity about it. Our purpose in life, uh, is to support and help other people find their purpose in life.

And should that imprint that you make on it be totally indelible for the rest of their life or for a short period of time, I think that that's what our res- that's what our responsibility is. And I think that the, the people who make the biggest impact in life are the ones who don't actually know they're doing it, because they're doing it from the heart and they're doing it from a place of, of wanting the world to be a better place by caring more

Dan Ryan: Something that resonated with me [00:14:00] that what you just said about the mentorship is oftentimes that impact... I, I can't tell you, one of the things in furnishing hotels, I just, I have a lot of collisions with architects, designers, developers, owners, um, from to junior. Mm. And I don't know, maybe 100, 150 collisions a month, right?

Let's just say that. And it's really amazing that o- over the years that I've been doing this, sometimes, well, many times, people will come up to me and say, "Oh, when you shared that information or me with that or said this certain thing, it, it impacted me in such a way." And many times I don't remember the conversation, but I think I'm talking to the person and all the people that I collide with, I really try and be open-hearted and listen and see and hear them, and be curious about them, 'cause I love [00:15:00] shortening journeys of others, and I've learned so much.

I'm like a sponge and a wealth of use- useless information, but sometimes it comes in handy for others. And I th- find that, yes, I've mentored many people, but oftentimes it's those impacts that I don't realize that have the, the biggest effect later

John O'Sullivan: Yeah. And I think it is, uh, philosophically, collisions become emotional crossovers.

Dan Ryan: Mm-hmm.

John O'Sullivan: So I think by-- from the case of humanity, I think the more humane and I think the more sincere you are, you, you decommission the, the, the, the negativity of what a collision implies, and you take that to a crossover or a transition into another space.

And I think that that's a gift.

Mm-hmm.

It's a gift of listening. I think it's a gift of non-judgment, and I think it's a gift also of allowing people to authentically be themselves. [00:16:00] And when it's a crossover, you can access vulnerability. When it's a collision, you just meet vertical brutality

Dan Ryan: Well, yeah, I guess in the truest sense there's vertical brutality, but I always try and make those collisions as a, as a way of forcing

Yeah

an exchange of information and experience

John O'Sullivan: yeah. Yeah, I hear you.

Dan Ryan: I also want our listeners to know, I couldn't re- I couldn't believe I couldn't remember the, the year I got married, but we almost came in contact with each other in 2002 because my dad offered to buy us or pay for our hotel wherever in the world we wanted to go after getting married up the road in Sayulita in Mexico. I picked the f- I was like, "Even, like, the Four Seasons?" And he said, "Yeah." And they had this service at the Four Seasons Bali where you could stay up in Ubud, and then they would pack your, your bags and bring you down on one of those little buggies, and then be down at the beach. But there was that bombing that happened right around then, so we

Yeah, man.

[00:17:00] It.

Yeah

wound up staying in Mexico and stayed at all these wonderful places i- around Mérida, um, beautiful old haciendas.

John O'Sullivan: Beautiful

Dan Ryan: one of the things I remember is one of the first places that we went to, they set up... There were only two groups. It was a man my, my wife and I staying there, and they set up this beautiful dinner on the veranda.

He had a table, I had a table. They had a microscope- or a telescope to look up at the stars. Mm-hmm. And my wife and I were just starting out on our life journey together, and then we started talking to him, and it turned out he was supposed to do this trip with his wife, but she had recently passed away. And he w- and he would-- they would go there, it was their annual trip, and he talked to us for a little while, and it just really impressed on, on me that that idea of love and journey and partnership, it could just [00:18:00] end at any moment. And he was honoring his wife by continuing on that journey and sharing some of his life experience with us.

And I, it just, I think it just deepened that memory of our honeymoon, sitting there with the telescope and, and it was sad, but also beautiful and amazing. Um, so I'm sad I didn't get to see you in Bali, but I al- we also had this incredible experience in the middle of the Yucatán.

John O'Sullivan: Yeah. I mean, you know, you touch on so many things there, don't you? The difference that traveling and not being a tourist, but being a traveler versus the whole idea also of just places have got different echoes, different memories. And if I think of Bali, um, one of the things we used to do, by the way, just to not mess with people, but, um, just I think an obsessive attention to detail was that before, if you were moving from one, uh, property to the other, which is [00:19:00] about from Jimbaran Bay to, uh, Ubud, we would actually video your room So that when we then would get to the next hotel, we would play the video and make sure is that everything was in the exact same location.

So for example, if the book was at a 45-degree angle on the table in the hotel room that you left, it would be at the exact same angle w- when you arrived in your other hotel. So I think it is also the, the, that one-- And I, you-- I, I think it's, again, one of the things from hos- from the hospitality industry and specifically Four Seasons, is this total healthy obsession for wanting to do something memorable.

Not, not to try and be smart about it, but to create those amazing memories for people.

Hmm

Uh, it's, it's, it's almost intellectual hospitality or cerebral hospitality of where, [00:20:00] yes, you know you're going to have your name used, but how do you, how do you go above that to be able to also make those truly memorable moments go, "How did, how did they know that?

How did, how did... Why is the book at the exact same angle as it was in the last room, at the last place, but they've changed the bookmark?" Which is the other thing I used to love to... I'm sorry, I apologize. It's not that I'm a manipulative person. I just love the magic a- a- and, and the abilities that we have in the hospitality industry.

And it's not about cost. It's about a, a, a sincere desire to extend the journey of amazingness that, that sort of people have. Uh, and, and I think it's, it's a gift that we are, uh, that we have been allowed to have and that we need to be able to share with other people.

Dan Ryan: I think that's a wonderful segue to personalize this [00:21:00] about Trevor. So he travels everywhere, right? And he has very good taste. do you think it is that he puts you and your property and your whole team at the top of his experiential pyramid at that property there?

John O'Sullivan: I, you know, I, first of all, Trevor would be, is very, very kind to link me to it. I, you know, we have More than 1,000 Mexican warriors, and I call them warriors, we don't have staff. Uh, and you know, the way I describe Mexicans is that they're Irish people with a better suntan, is that they, that they are just the most genuine, hardworking, uh, playful, uh, people.

And, and what I love about it is that there are different parts of the world of where a transaction between a guest and a warrior or a staff [00:22:00] member is one of where it is not necessarily one of e- of, of equality. Um, and where there sometimes is an implied level of servitude, either from a body language point of view or from a communication point of view.

In Mexico, that's not the case, is that it is about establishing eye contact. It's about talking to you, and you may have a, a Ferrari and I may have a ferret, but the, the the reality is, is great. I've got a great ferret, and I'm really happy about you. There's a level of, of, of equality that Mexicans give situations that just make it, um, you know, so real and so genuine.

I think also families and, you know, with, with Trevor and his extended family, is that Mexicans love fam- The, the family unit because s- one could argue that the political, uh, unit does not necessarily work all the [00:23:00] time. I think is that families and multi-generations have create their own little micro units.

So there's nothing that I love more than just seeing on a-- going to a, a, a local beach on a Sunday and seeing a panga or a boat, uh, come up and see, you know, grandfather and grandmother getting off the boat, the big boombox, 17 different ice buckets coming out. Uh, a- and within five minutes you have a colony that's been sort of created.

That's-- Everything is, is so beautiful and, and so family-centric, and that translates naturally into, into a, a sort of a work en- a work environment. And what we, in, in all locations, we try and be authentically the preferred employer by looking after people, ensuring that they are financially benefit-wise, mental health-wise, in every way, you know, treated as we would wish to be treated.

And that translates to, [00:24:00] uh, that translates to, to the guests. We've also been given a sort of an amazing 400 acre blank canvas of where we've been able to, to innovate, create, sometimes fail, uh, in just wanting to always push the boundaries of possibilities and potential Whilst having sincere, proactive care as the foundation and the springboard for everything that we do, but from the heart and real.

There's nothing more, you know, contrived than some restaurants you go into in certain parts of the world of where you know you're kind of being emotionally played rather than being spoken with or being spoken to. Uh, and I think Mexico, uh, and having been to 97 countries and lived in seven, uh, Mexico has everything through the, [00:25:00] the, the blood that pumps through the veins of these remarkable human beings who love to have fun, who are incredibly playful.

Yes- yesterday-- Okay, real example. Yesterday, once a month is that... And it's typical of Four Seasons, management serve in the restaurant, uh, behind the line and serving staff and st- I was there yesterday for an hour and a half, and it also coincided with a, uh, it was a housekeeping celebration, and it was housekeeping karaoke.

Um, now, I don't know if you've listened to all the housekeepers sing sort of songs, and these are all without alcohol, I'm afraid. Um, there was a little bit of a coyote factor going on in the corner. So I was liter-literally serving the food and to the people in the background, and then the other staff who were eating or in the line were just howling back at me.

And it wasn't because I'm John, general manager or [00:26:00] VP. It's what we do as a community. There's a, there's a sense within Four Seasons of egalitarianism because we're all trying to do the same thing. But I think within Mexico, it becomes even more accentuated because fun and, um, latent silliness is also the sort of currency of exchange.

Dan Ryan: So as I'm hearing you share that, I'm getting this sense of creativity, right? And balancing creativity with all of the operations and the team and the systems and the processes and... You've also said a couple times, like, a canvas, and you are also very creative. You have published poetry books. You're a painter. In your day-to-day, how do you balance... You s- I think you said you had four... How many people work there? 400?

John O'Sullivan: Well, more than a thousand

Dan Ryan: than 1,000. Okay. So 1,000 people,

an [00:27:00] incredible team. How do you on top of all of the management that you have to do operationally, but then also dedicate time to publishing and creating, and how does that feed and, and rejuvenate itself?

John O'Sullivan: I call it duality of purpose. Uh, and that is there's 168 hours in every week, regardless of how much money you have in your bank account. Uh, and I just think for me, it's about intentionality, about what you're consciously doing. And if you think of what is h- you know, what is hospitality?

It, it's art and science or science and art. And, and I think is that there's a very strong symbiotic relationship between creativity and process, and I think that they both joyfully, uh, can feed off each other. So, for example, I'm going through a phase at the moment of where, uh, I'm painting [00:28:00] like crazy. Um, and that would be creative.

When I'm in work and when I'm thinking about items, that creativity of art totally helps me make decisions from a business point of view because I think of spaces, I think of how we can repurpose spaces. I think of how we can constantly reinvent purpose. And what got us here is not going to get us there.

And, you know, uh, the idea is that being nostalgic is beautiful. I'm actually nostalgic for the future 'cause I'm nostalgic for the thought of what we have the ability to create based on the foundations, um, that we have got. So I think there... I, I think that, uh, creativity and the implementation of that and, and, and business, 'cause it's a huge business, happily sort of coexist together.

'Cause what it does is that if you take business in isolation, it's a tunnel. [00:29:00] If you take business and creativity together, it's a funnel because it allows you that sort of ongoing ability to expand potential rather than being restricted by practices.

Dan Ryan: And then how do you do that in your daily routine? Like, are you doing it in the morning, at night? Are you... when do you fi- in that 100... I agree, there's 168 hours. How do you find the time to publish books of poetry and, and paint?

John O'Sullivan: I think I, I get up at 4:00 every morning,

Dan Ryan: Hmm.

John O'Sullivan: I sleep for eight hours.

Thanks

and I paint at weekends, and I'm all the time writing things down. Stan had his little cards. I just have notes within, in my phone.

Dan Ryan: Mm-hmm.

John O'Sullivan: I think that this may seem a bit strange. I just think at times that I'm lazy because the fact is that I think there's so much that can be done almost on a simultaneous or parallel basis.

And the more intentional you are, I think the faster you are at achieving things. [00:30:00] And I don't mean the completion of it, but I just... allowing yourself and forgi-forgiving yourself about not putting a s- not putting a straitjacket on when you're in that creative mode and just becoming an, uh, almost like a cross between an amoeba and a starfish of where you're just there absorbing, engulfing, projecting, reshaping, and they all blur.

They all blur into each other. And the other most important thing, which I found out when I was a GM when I was 25, always surround yourself by people who are better than you.

Hmm

if you're, if you're an Irish passport holder, that's pretty easy anyway, at any age. but honestly, and I love when I'm interviewing people and, you know, as the, the warriors, the senior leaders we have here, is that I'm wrong so much of the time.

And, and what does wrong mean? I mean, I've come up with a, an idea that I think is great, and it will be reshaped, and it will end up, because of the non-fear-based culture, to having [00:31:00] something that's infinitely stronger and better. And a great example of that, we created a new resort next door to us called Navida, which is 48 acres of land, 15 bungalows that we created over six years.

It's been an amazing success. It's, it's pri- the, the idea was to make it non-transactional. There's no check-in, there's no check-out, there's no reception, there's no children, there's no televisions, there's no menus. It's fully inclusive, and there's a, there's no signing, and there's a shaman on the management team.

Well, we created this over a period of six years, and I thought we had it nailed. And we have-- the general manager of it is a, a Spanish gentleman. He's a bit of a lunatic, to be honest. But anyway, um, and his name is Eduardo. He has taken it to a level that I could never have possibly got to, but he could never have got there if I hadn't had the original idea in the first place.

So I think it is this idea that, [00:32:00] that work and management is almost a petri dish of culture growth that is to almost infinity and beyond when you remove the boundaries and you get rid of the, the linearity of rules and whatever, and you allow everyone to play in the sandbox of, of, of potential Whilst having a level of accountability, but just allowing people to, to fail.

Because I probably am the biggest failure within Four Seasons because I've tried more things that have probably not gone right. But probably a large amount of them have gone right. And I think failure... I reward people for failure because it's them trying to try new things.

Mm-hmm.

In so many cases, it's a natural prelude for success.

So why does there have to be this polarity of right, wrong? It's not. It's a blur. It's a bit like people talking about, you know, "What's your life balance?" I [00:33:00] have a life blur, and I think right and wrong is sort of blur. If you go back to Bali and you think of Hinduism, you know, it's not about, you know, too much right isn't g- isn't right.

Too much wrong isn't right. But there should be a healthy relationship be- between both, and I think the same is right between failure and success. Light bulbs, 12,000 experiments and it was wrong. And the f- the 12- around 11,598 was right. So what are you judging on? The statistical failure or the eminence of success?

I prefer to go for the, the, the, you know,

I think it's

fail

Dan Ryan: I think it's definitely the eminence of success. And as you're talking and stringing all these words together and reflecting on your poetry, it's almost as if you're... And your Irishness, like this James Joyce of hospitality who's been on this 40-year odyssey, [00:34:00] right? Like

Ugh.

And, but-- And it all started when you were 12, and I know you mentioned that Yeah when we were talking, but you were, you were working in a kitchen peeling potatoes.

Like, how did that happen? And then how... Normally, someone who starts peeling potatoes in a kitchen, um, might not wanna go into hospitality at 12, right?

Yeah.

They would be like, "Okay, well, I'm-- maybe I should become a doctor or a lawyer or something else," but you, you doubled down on that. So tell us about that origin story

John O'Sullivan: Yeah. My father was 54 when I was born, and I was born into an Irish Catholic Victorian family, so we never really needed to go to a museum 'cause I lived in one. Um, and I, from a very early age, just thought, "Wow, what's out there?" And I remember lying on my back, uh, looking at the jet streams, which in the northwest of Ireland would've been coming from [00:35:00] Heathrow going to North America, and wondering, "Where are those people going?

Who are they gonna meet? What are they gonna be eating? What are they gonna be drinking? Oh my God, this is amazing." And I remember then the hotel I worked in, um, they allowed me to, uh, take the eyes out of potatoes. Then I was allowed to clean the kitchen, and then I was allowed to lift luggage to American tourists.

And so I would do my little Puss in Boots impersonation with the little pussycat lost, and I realized that when I smiled at people, they gave me money. This was a good thing and a bad thing. And I just reali- I just loved... I lo- I loved the currency of people being on a journey, and you could be the interface, and you could make it feel wonderful for them.

And I, and I, I, I had a, a, a hotel school reunion two years ago, and it was the sort of 40-year graduation of the class. And there was a quite a lot of jaundiced people [00:36:00] there. Uh, there was a lot of people who may not necessarily have totally looked after themselves or were just tired of what they were doing.

And I had to totally suppress myself, is that I have never after... And I'm 64, 52 years ago, I, I feel more excited and vibrant each and every day. And I don't know why other than there's so much, there's so much still to be done. There's so many people from a-- to be nurtured, to be cared for. Our purpose in life is to support other people find their purpose in life.

And that's just not just warriors. That's the guests. The amount of interaction I have after guests have left that we're... You know, you generate sincere relationships with people because I'm not after anything. I'm after weaving a narrative for them that is sincere and genuine [00:37:00] and makes them feel that something sincere and authentic is, is happening.

We, we had a person, again yesterday, and this is yesterday, you know, who was taken to hospital in Puerto Vallarta. I become obsessed about that. Who went with them? Uh, can we send a care pack for them? When they're coming back, who's meeting them on the driveway? How do we make their room when they come back to the room, not a hotel room, but one that's even more laced with love?

Now, I didn't read that in a book.

Hmm.

Peters didn't tell me that all those 30 years ago. It comes from the heart. Yeah. And I think that authentic hospitality, yes, is also now today is an intersection of AI. But I always say to people, "I, I don't suffer from AI, I suffer from HI." That's heart intelligence. If we still use the heart to guide us, we're still gonna get [00:38:00] to, I think, a much better place.

And maybe the process will be a little bit slower, but it'll be an awful lot more layered with authenticity and truth and memories, uh, and, and, and joy.

Dan Ryan: okay, on the joy front and g- and back to that reunion that you had where you c- where you felt different than,

Yes.

Different than

Yes

of your other colleagues who, who just have s- settled or they're on their journey and, and it is what it is. But I think, I think that your practice of creativity and poetry and painting every day, I think that that opens up your heart because you have to be on that vibration of creativity, and I, I think that that fuel in and of itself. What are your thoughts on that?

John O'Sullivan: Yeah, I totally agree. I totally agree. I also, uh, as my, uh, daughters say to me, I suffer from a disease called, um positivity. I just, I-- positive delusional [00:39:00] syndrome.

My wife

think that...

Dan Ryan: me of that.

John O'Sullivan: Yeah, but hey, you need to work on your memory from-- for wedding dates, but that's a separate thing.

Dan Ryan: She's gonna... I, I, I can edit that one out. I, I won't though. We're, we're gonna be human

John O'Sullivan: Yeah, I know that that's a, that's, yeah, the... But yeah, I, I, that's, that's what it's about.

Dan Ryan: when you go on vacation

John O'Sullivan: Yeah

Dan Ryan: From living in paradise, w- what do

Yeah

do you like to do? How, where do you get your inspiration or, or do you ha- d- or do you just go back to Ireland and see family? Like, how do you recharge from a place of always recharging?

John O'Sullivan: extreme high altitude trekking without using oxygen or without using ropes or ice picks, uh, is, is what I do. And I take me time every year between a week and two weeks. Last year I went to Albania for the first time. I've been going hiking. I've been going to Bali for 35 years. Uh, Bhutan. Uh, so I do a lot of stuff for me, and that's where I go with my backpack.

And people ask me what I do, and I just say, "I write poetry and I paint." I don't [00:40:00] That's one part. Uh, I s- I, I love just nature. I, I need an awful lot of solitude, and the only thing closest to solitude is being with my family, which gives me the same sense of, of inner love. Um, I will, because of the joy of some of the benefits we receive, I will go, as I'm doing next week, going to Mauritius,

Dan Ryan: Oh,

John O'Sullivan: my family.

But I don't go...

wow

I'm not there as the inspector. I go there for an awful lot of it's just talking to the, to the staff and just chilling out and re- and, and, and, and relaxing. And also, 'cause I've been around for a long time within Four Seasons, you just, you, you just want to, in some way, impart that level of, of, of energy, uh, to other, to other, to other people.

Uh, I love, uh, I do-- I've done four, uh, exhibitions of my paintings in different parts of the [00:41:00] world. I have done five literary festivals reading my poetry and moderating, but not as Four Seasons. And people might say, "Well, okay, John, you are now describing the advanced stages of schizophrenia." And I-- my answer to that would be, "I wish it was that simple and there was only two of us."

Uh, I have a quorum of, of, of different parts that are not in conflict with each other. And I think, I think, Dan, you, you, you kind of nailed it. It's that sort of, uh, the creativity feeds the business side. Uh, and, and, and you have to be good at business because you have to be making results. You're making money for other people.

But I just think there's an awful lot of really great ways of doing it. And I think people become, I don't wanna say seduced, but they want to be part of that creative journey rather than that mechanical process journey. Because you can cover all the mechanical processes, but you can just do it on a more creative...

And the other most important word is, is fun. I, I'm really sorry. [00:42:00] Is that the day, uh, that this become... And, and yes, we have challenging times that happen, but the day that this becomes sort of, "Oh my God, I'm not enjoying it anymore," or, "I'm not having fun," or, "I'm not being silly." Like going in today to my director of rooms next door, who I know has got a bag of cookies, and he's got his back to him, and can I go into his office and remove a cookie without being found?

I did it 10 minutes before our, our, our, our, our chat. And there's two people in the office who then, when I come out, are sort of going, "Yeah, yeah, yeah." Uh, is that leadership? Is that being alive? Is that fun? Or is it, "It's blur. It's blur."

Dan Ryan: It's thievery.

John O'Sullivan: You can't be thievery with cookies, Dan.

Dan Ryan: bastard.

John O'Sullivan: No. No, I'm not.

Dan Ryan: So I love also how you said earlier that you, uh, you reward failure. And I'm curious for you, w- from the time that you became [00:43:00] a gen- a general manager at 25 years old until you sitting here with me, Yeah worst mistake you've ever made as a general manager?

John O'Sullivan: probably not acknowledging people, earlier on in my career when I was probably, uh, have a level of fear about my position, uh, as opposed to the vulnerability of reality. and, and I think, you know, being vulnerable as a leader, in a hotel business 40 years ago was not necessarily a strength.

Whereas I thi- you know, I see now I think one of my greatest, uh, and it's a convenience because vulnerability is quite often when you don't do something totally right, which I don't do everything totally right. But instead of trying to bury it, I showcase it, and it allows other people to be vulnerable.

It allows other people to be mis- make mistakes, and it makes other people find what's the learning. And I say to people, "Here's the deal. We've [00:44:00] messed up. What have we, what have we learned from it?" Okay, we've learned this and this. Okay, great. Is there anything else we've learned from it? No. Then can we just jettison all the other baggage, all the other stuff, and take those things and add it to our toolbox of potentially great for the future.

But don't become a victim to, I could have, I should have, I would have. If only it was a full moon, I could have got... Get, get rid of all that stuff. And don't allow stuff to remain on your hard drive of life that really shouldn't be there. Forgive everyone. Don't allow... I-- If I had to die tomorrow and you said to me, uh, "So you're gonna die tomorrow.

Uh, who do you want to forgive?" I have forgiven everyone because they're not worthy of being on my hard drive of going, "Oh my God, you've done me wrong," whatever. Great. I have forgiven everyone. I have asked for forgiveness from everyone. Uh, and if you do that, then I think, you know, and I go back to [00:45:00] your canvas.

Your canvas is waiting to be re-primed rather than sort of, you know, taking a square inch and working on it. And I think, you know, and don't take ourselves too seriously. We're not, we're not doing brain surgery. We're doing a lot of heart surgery, though.

Dan Ryan: Oh my God, I love that. Because it is heart surgery, because oftentimes people are coming to you on your property and they, they need, they need that vacation. They're, they're at a breaking point and their heart is closed, and that's amazing to- 'cause you're really doing whatever you can to help them open up their heart and just get into

Utley.

Relaxation and escape

John O'Sullivan: and the joy I have, the biggest joy I have, one of the biggest joys, is meeting someone on arrival who has sent me an email saying, "You know, I wanna put my program together. I'm from New York, uh, and I wanna do... I'm, I'm here for five days and I want..." Yeah. Like, they're, they're here to four of them.

Uh, "And I wanna, you know, do this, this, this." I go, "I hear you. It's not the busiest time of the year, you don't need to do that. When you arrive, let's talk about it." And seeing that person, and then [00:46:00] seeing them four or five days later suffering from a beautiful con- con- condition called jellyfishitis, which is what I call it.

And where they can hardly get up and going, "Yeah, you were so right, man. I, I've just been by the beach. I've just discovered mango margaritas," which you should have discovered earlier in life, "and volumes of them. And I just love, I love the way I feel." And that, you know, going back to Trevor and why he likes it so much here, because you can go to all the bar...

You can go to the bars and the beaches, and everyone wants to share a story with you.

Dan Ryan: Mm-hmm.

John O'Sullivan: Yes, we have standards, but our job is also to remove the transactions. So it's heart to heart underpinned by consistent service, not by these sort of roadblocks of, "Well, I can't do that. That's not right. Let me call my supervisor."

I empower everyone. Do whatever it needs to fix it. Doesn't like it, replace it straight away, apologize, find out behind the scenes could we have done something [00:47:00] better, and learn from it. And go back to the guest and say, "You know something? You were totally right." Is, uh, spoke with the sh- "Glad you enjoyed the replacement."

Spoke with the chef. "You're right, it was a little bit salty." And the chef will come out and say, "Really appreciate." And all of a sudden it's not the Spa- it's not sort of Monty Python Spanish Inquisition on steroids.

Yeah

the opposite. It's thank you, love it. And, and it's just make it real.

Dan Ryan: So as an artist and poet

and a storyteller, Yeah

also celebrating failures and sharing your struggles and failures with others so that they learn, what, what's a story that you find yourself telling over and over because it teaches something none of your other stories tell?

John O'Sullivan: you know, opening our first Four Seasons in the Middle East and not necessarily having the infrastructure there and the culture in Egypt before that was that staff were subservient.

Managers ate in their own restaurants. Staff did what managers [00:48:00] said, and there was no level of camaraderie. And I remember interviewing for the first time people and saying, "You know, here's what we're gonna do. We're Four Seasons. This is how we operate." And people just laughing in my face. And I'm going, "No, we- we're going to," just like I did yesterday, "We're going to once a month serve you food in the staff restaurant."

"No, you're not." "We're all going to eat in the same restaurant together." "No, you're not." "We're gonna treat you as equals. We're gonna give you all the training you need, and our goal is to, uh, allow you to grow and to benefit." And, and I remember that sort of rather turgid initial few months and, and not saying it to anyone, but going, "How are we gonna do this?"

And it's a bit like, uh, and I'm sorry, I'm dating myself, but the, uh, wonderful, uh, movie, The Magnificent Seven, uh, with the wonderful Ennio Morricone music, uh, and tumbleweeds in the background. And one by one, we're gonna ride and one by one taking that... And, and, and I remember [00:49:00] the opening, uh, s- because in a-- when a Four Seasons opens, the first people who experience it are the staff, which is a couple of days beforehand, they're allowed to experience the property, the restaurants, the food, everything.

And I remember getting special permission from Hosni Mubarak, the president, because you weren't allowed to have more than 12 people gather at one stage. And I wanted to bring my 400 warriors and walk them around the Four Seasons in first residence. And I remember being in that ballroom, and I get emotional just talking about it.

I remember being in that ballroom And just seeing people who totally believed and n-- and actually knew that, that there was a n- there was a new dawn for their possibilities. And I fast-forward, one of my best friends was the general manager of the Four Seasons in Dublin. Wonderful man, John Brennan. And he was really short of staff, and we [00:50:00] sent 15, uh, Egyptians to, to Dublin.

We knew that they were never coming back because it was a great opportunity for them. Um, and I remember going... Whenever I would go to Dublin to go to one of my favorite pubs with John, I would always go to the hotel. And two years later, all the Egyptians had Dublin accents, and they'd be going, "Oh, yeah, we start at 11.

Great seeing you." And I'm going, "Dude, you got the wrong script. You're, you're from Zamalek in Cairo. What's going on?" And then coming back, they would all take me to a Middle Eastern restaurant, and we would smoke shisha, uh, it's all legal, and sort of eat a beautiful food. There-- That's the story. The story of hope and the story of giving people the possibilities to liberate themselves from the tyranny of history, which at times just sort of oppresses them.

Dan Ryan: Yeah

John O'Sullivan: w- we gave them the op- and, and we, we, we worked it out. [00:51:00] Five years after that hotel opened, we had given 150 people to different parts of the world, uh, and today I think we have 17 hotels in, in the Middle East. And that's not about me. That's about creating that culture and real people who believe in the fact is that doing the right thing will always be stronger than doing the thing that suppresses people.

Dan Ryan: Yeah, and I wonder, did the, in, in addition to the d- uh, developing the Irish accent, did they also take on a name like, "Oh, now I'm Paddy Hasan," or something like that?

John O'Sullivan: No, they did-- But what they did do is that they all got m- they all got, were married, um, uh, either with me- people they met in Ireland or their families coming over. And they would tell me about the factors of the second home they had, the business that they were doing on the side, which I'm not supposed to say.

They, you know, the idea of what they were doing, whatever. And they, you know, they have... There's some of them are still there, even though the hotel is now an Intercontinental, beautiful hotel. Um, [00:52:00] they're still there. And whenever I'm in Dublin, I always nip in there to see if there's any one of them left

Dan Ryan: I think that goes back to idea of belonging as well. And if I think about how my thinking has changed in this conversation, started teeing you up as like the Four- Four Seasons as like the best service, amongst the world at what they do. But I feel like, especially after hearing the, the story you shared of the guest where, where the chef came out and said, "You were right, it is salty," it's almost as if rather than serving the guests, the-- in that s- story where the chef came out, you're really making them feel like they're a part of the process, and that's that sense of belonging, and you're making them belong and, and giving them license.

That's pretty awesome. I mean, you changed my thinking there. I wasn't about

John O'Sullivan: if you create the macro environment to allow people to do that, and rather than sort of living in a house with six rooms, you're living in one floor that's a loft, [00:53:00] and everyone can be in the loft at the same time, then it nurtures a space and environment for people to do that.

Now, there are certain guests who have no interest in, in, in that, and they want the traditional verticality of service. In this day and age, uh, and, and with the joyful disparity of, you know, the person who's very wealthy is not the person wearing the three-piece suit. They are the ones on holidays who are wearing the flip-flops, who are wearing the shorts, the T-shirts, whatever.

When you provide that environment for them, it just allows everyone to, to, to benefit from it. And it also creates, from a business point of view, a repeat rate that is sort of considerably higher than other properties because, you know... I, I can remember being here for-- and I've been here for thirteen years, and sort of at festive, uh, you know, kids are arriving and the, the staff from the Kids from All Seasons are waiting for the guests.

I've seen people [00:54:00] who are 16 get out of the car and run to the people from Kids for All Seasons. I'm thinking, "This is a bit weird." And they're the people who were looking after them when they were two, three, four, five, six.

And they're the ones it, it, it becomes a matrix of, of, of untraceable possibilities from the past that weave themselves into, in, into future generations authentically and genuinely, and not because the fact that someone created a standards of performance, uh, manual that says you have to be nice to people

Dan Ryan: Other than what I can imagine is going to be one of the most atrocious, atrocious flights from Puerto Vallarta to Mauritius,

what's exciting you most about the future?

John O'Sullivan: I think we have never been more on the precipice of greatness. and I think that from a hospitality, uh, discovery, traveling, wellness, uh, perspective is that truly the best [00:55:00] is yet to come. And I think if we get out of our own ways of, you know, becoming totally obsessed about AI and about harnessing the values of AI, how do you interface that with, uh, with service?

Uh, I, I, I think, you know, I, I see the new parts of the world that are opening up. I see the transition from non-- from process to non-process. I see luxury as being authentic experiential as opposed to very rich. I see it from the movement from, you know, excess to authentic access. Uh, I, I think we've never been more poised, uh, for, for, for more greatness.

I, I think is that competition is so important because it, it, it segments to the reality of future expectations rather than the past. Uh, and I think [00:56:00] that we have got a huge responsibility within our industry and with adjacent industries to just create joyful, authentic, real experiences that resonate and mirror the hope and expectations of people

Dan Ryan: Love it. And then the John O'Sullivan I'm s- I'm speaking to right now,

John O'Sullivan: Yeah

Dan Ryan: to magically appear in front of your 12-year-old self with the paring knife or whatever you were using to cut the eyes out of the potatoes, do you have for yourself?

John O'Sullivan: Rock on

Dan Ryan: Nice

John O'Sullivan: yeah, you, you made loads of mistakes along the way. Uh, and, you know, you've had a profound amount of fun, and you have had a lot of impact unintentionally on other people's lives and you, you know, and great stories along the way and, and, and, and such silliness, um, [00:57:00] which I can't really tell you about here.

Um, but we will when you, uh, come back to celebrate your twenty-fifth year of-

Dan Ryan: my-- I think I'm gonna have to get Trevor to organize a trip for me, and

John O'Sullivan: But he's be- he's been trying to, he's been trying to for years. So the, the-- now you have to say, "Trevor, I've got to go and see John."

Dan Ryan: Maybe Joy.

call

But

Joyce of the Jungle. We get the alliteration

John O'Sullivan: what is interesting is the fact is that, uh, William Butler Yeats is my favorite poet because he's from the same town I was born, which is Sligo.

Dan Ryan: I went to his grave there

John O'Sullivan: Yeah. " Cast,

Dan Ryan: two

John O'Sullivan: cast..." Cast a cold eye on life and death, horseman, pass by." That's his epitaph

Dan Ryan: Yes. And I think we need to end it here because you can't go on from that quote. Um, this has been so wonderful, wonderful for me and I know for all of our listeners. And I-- my takeaway is, and I'm on this path already, but really [00:58:00] rethinking those 168 hours. And I'm already pretty efficient with them, but I want more creativity and, and heart opening and heart surgery, like you put it. So sure this is gonna resonate with all of our listeners, but for me, selfishly, this was a fantastic and wonderful conversation. I appreciate you so much

John O'Sullivan: And it was equally beautiful to be able to share authentically with you, Dan, and with those lovely people listening

Dan Ryan: Thank you. And for all of our listeners, I'll have links to his books. Um, also any information on Four Seasons. And John, if people wanted to get in touch with you, what's a good way for them to do that or learn more about you or f- your awesome resort down there or your books?

John O'Sullivan: I would say I, I have a very simple email, which is irishmanbali@outlook.com. That's, that gets to me and that sort of looks at the other stuff. And the other is johnosullivan@fourseasons.com

Dan Ryan: Perfect. Awesome. [00:59:00] Um, I appreciate you so much. Thank you to all of our listeners. If you think that this and reevaluating how your 168 hours or someone else could use their 168 hours a little bit differently, please pass it along. We grow a lot by word of mouth in spite of social media and AI and all that other stuff.

Um, I appreciate you. Don't forget to like, subscribe, pass it on, and we'll catch you next time

John O'Sullivan: Thank