So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People

“The goal was never to be the department of ‘no’. The goal was to find a way for the business to proceed while identifying the risks that you are willing to take and those that you are not.” - Brittany Johnson

What do in-house lawyers actually want from outside counsel?

After spending more than a decade inside one of the most recognizable brands in the world, Brittany Johnson has a surprisingly clear, and uncomplicated, answer.

In this episode of So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People, Megan Senese and Jennifer Ramsey sit down with Brittany Johnson to talk about her journey from Big Law associate to leading licensing and expansion work at a global brand, and why she recently made the decision to return to private practice.

Along the way, Brittany shares what life inside a global brand really looked like, the lessons she learned working alongside business leaders, and why the best outside counsel don't just identify risks, they stand by their team and share in the responsibility of all decisions made.

You’ll hear about:
  • Why Brittany left her "dream job" to begin a new chapter
  • The anxiety dream that perfectly captured career transitions
  • What surprised her most about moving from private practice to in-house
  • Why in-house lawyers are rarely the most important voice in the room
  • The difference between identifying risks and helping businesses make decisions
  • The business development mistakes that immediately turn in-house counsel off
  • Why relationships with in-house lawyers are often a long game
  • What outside counsel can do to become indispensable partners
  • The brands Brittany is watching right now
  • How a non-billable assignment changed the course of her career forever

About Brittany Johnson:

Brittany Johnson is a franchise and licensing attorney with more than a decade of experience spanning both private practice and in-house legal leadership. Throughout her career, she has advised brands on growth, expansion, licensing, and strategic partnerships, helping businesses navigate complex legal and commercial challenges.

Today, Brittany brings her unique perspective as both a former in-house business partner and outside counsel to help emerging and established brands grow thoughtfully and sustainably. Her practice focuses on franchising, licensing, and building practical legal solutions that support business objectives.

Learn More:

This episode is brought to you by: Vista Consulting

Vista Consulting helps law firms navigate the rapidly shifting landscape of private equity and MSO-driven transactions. They serve as strategic advisors to firms preparing for acquisition, merger, or partnership, strengthening operations, aligning leadership, and pressure-testing financial performance. Their hands-on experience ensures firms enter the market organized, confident, and positioned to maximize value when it matters most for long-term success ahead. For more information, check out their Law Firm Owner’s Guide to PE Readiness here or explore Vista Consulting’s M&A advisory services for law firms considering a sale.

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Want to go deeper? Curious about 1:1 coaching with Megan or Jen? Or want the inside scoop on stage? Hit us up below, we’d love to chat!

Creators and Guests

Host
Jennifer Ramsey
Host
Megan Senese

What is So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People?

Welcome to So Much To Say: A Legal Podcast For People where we explore the behind-the-scenes of work, law, life, and everything in between. We’re your hosts, business development and legal marketing coaches Jennifer Ramsey and Megan Senese, and we’re here to showcase the human side of the legal world, from marketing and consulting to the very real challenges of balancing ambitious careers with being human. This isn’t your typical, dry legal show. Instead, So Much To Say is a human-centered leadership, marketing, and culture podcast through the lens of law. We bring you real stories, candid conversations, and thoughtful insights that remind you that outside of being a lawyer or legal marketer, what makes you human matters too. So whether you’re navigating billable hours, building meaningful relationships, redefining success, or simply trying to stay human in a high-performance profession, this podcast is for you.
Stay human. Stay inspired. Namaste (or whatever keeps you human).

[00:00:00] Brittany Johnson: When I think back on my time in-house, the goal was never to be the department of no. The goal was to be, to find a way for the business to proceed while identifying the risks that you are willing to take and those that you are not. Because i- in private practice, it could have been, and it can be easy to just identify risks and say like, "Here are the risks," but that wasn't gonna cut it in, in-house.
[00:00:23] Two interesting things. One was being willing to stake a claim which one you thought was right. I'm gonna put my own skin in the game and I'm going to say, "Here's the way that I think that we should go." When you do that, and you're signaling to your teams that you are sharing in the upside if it goes great, you're gonna share in the downside if it goes horribly wrong.
[00:00:44] Megan Senese: Welcome to So Much to Say: A Legal Podcast For People, where we dive into the beautiful chaos of work, life, and everything in between. Outside of being a lawyer or a legal marketer, we want to know what makes you human. And with that, let's get started. Every time we have a new guest come on our show, I always anticipate that I know what they're going to talk about, and I'm always and I'm always wrong.
[00:01:09] I love finding out more about people that you can't see on their LinkedIn, that goes beyond the content that they post, even if they're a regular poster. And so I love hearing the story of our next guest, where she essentially falls into franchising and branding work because a partner came into her office late at night when she was an associate, dropped a Franchising for Dummies book on her desk and said, "Give me this assignment by tomorrow."
[00:01:41] And it was an overnight project that was not billable time. We love things like that. The rest is sort of history. She moves on from her associate position to one of the largest, most recognizable brands in the entire world, and she talks about that experience, and then how she leaves her sort of dream job to find the next dream.
[00:02:01] And dreams change, and we love talking about that. And to be honest, she opens up this interview talking about an anxiety dream that she had, and we do a little analyzing of that as well. And so every time you pop onto our show, we hope we're bringing you something new and insightful, and this episode is hopefully no different than the rest. Enjoy.
[00:02:26] Megan Senese: Thanks for being on.
[00:02:27] Brittany Johnson: I’m so excited to
[00:02:28] Megan Senese: like finally- Welcome ...
[00:02:29] Brittany Johnson: finally get this. Thank you. And meet my business
[00:02:31] Megan Senese: partner, Jen. Jen, meet Brittany. Nice to meet you.
[00:02:34] Brittany Johnson: Nice to meet you. Thanks for having me on, ladies. This is so fun and so exciting.
[00:02:38] Megan Senese: How's your Monday going? How's it going for you?
[00:02:41] Brittany Johnson: My Monday is, is great.
[00:02:42] I, I had a very interesting dream last night.
[00:02:45] Megan Senese: Oh, yeah. Tell us.
[00:02:46] Brittany Johnson: Yes, which I woke up and I was like, "I have to text somebody and tell somebody about this."
[00:02:50] Megan Senese: We love dream work. Let's, let's hear it.
[00:02:53] Brittany Johnson: I'm very recently in a new job, and, um, in my dream last night, I went to my old office on Monday, and I just sat down and I started doing work until people were like, "Ugh, what are you doing?"
[00:03:02] And then I was like, "Oh, yeah,
[00:03:07] like, I'm very embarrassed and I should go now." And it was just one of those like really interesting... I woke up and it was so funny to me, like how your brain processes new in different ways, right?
[00:03:19] Jennifer Ramsey: Did you post about this on LinkedIn?
[00:03:21] Brittany Johnson: I did. I woke up this morning, I texted one of my new colleagues, and I was like, "This has to go up because this is classic anxiety dreams."
[00:03:30] Jennifer Ramsey: By the way, what was the picture that accompanied that post? Because it was beautiful.
[00:03:35] Brittany Johnson: Thank you. Um, it was, um, actually just like an art installation, like a floral art installation that I saw when I was traveling abroad, and I try to take pictures of beautiful things wherever I go. I love wisteria.
[00:03:47] Wisteria's one of those things, it's absolutely beautiful, but it will destroy you- Mm ... if you let it. Mm-hmm. And I saw a full fence that was taken down this week. Yes. By, based on- Wow ... wisteria, and I was like God, she's- Okay ... there's some sort of metaphor there, right? But it's beautiful
[00:04:02] Megan Senese: Your dream is beautiful.
[00:04:04] It's a great segue, right? So you have your old life, and so talk to us about what your old life was, and then you can walk us through into your new life where you, the office that you are currently in, and deserve to be in, and should be in. Oh, look at you, Jen.
[00:04:17] Brittany Johnson: I mean, I've heard there's a siren. The siren calls.
[00:04:19] Yes, she does.
[00:04:20] Jennifer Ramsey: My, my husband, I, I, I, just a little side, um, I was telling him today that we were having you on Brittany- Yeah ... and that you were in-house formerly at Starbucks. Yeah. So I asked him if he would go get me a chai tea latte, and, and deliver it while we're speaking so that I can, like, hold it up. So to the people list- to the pod squad listening, we're, like, looking at this beautiful brand-
[00:04:44] Brittany Johnson: Yes
[00:04:44] Jennifer Ramsey: That is Starbucks.
[00:04:46] Brittany Johnson: Yes. And
[00:04:47] Jennifer Ramsey: Brittany, take it away. Tell us all about you.
[00:04:50] Brittany Johnson: Well, um, yeah, I would love to tell you a little bit about my journey and where I've, what I've been up to lately. So, um, for the last 12 years, um, I spent my career in-house at Starbucks, um, leading domestic and global expansion by licensing.
[00:05:04] Um, and it, it was an amazing, incredible ride, for which I'm very, very grateful. And still, you know, many friends, so many good memories, and, um, just experiences that I could never have imagined for myself. So you know, it, the siren will always have a very, um, spot in my heart. That said, I've made the choice to, to move on back to private practice, which I'm really excited about.
[00:05:30] Ooh. Mm-hmm. So, um, I was in private practice before I joined Starbucks, and, um, you know, I think that one of the things that's really exciting about coming back to private practice is I can take all of those things that I learned and all those experiences, and help the next generation of brands grow. And that's what I'm so excited about, is working with more people, um, building bigger and better connections, and watching and helping that next generation of who's gonna be next?
[00:05:57] Who's gonna be the next big thing? And being able to help that is so exciting. So that's my story. That's what I'm doing.
[00:06:02] Megan Senese: I lo- I love that, and I love that, you know, we're, we kicked off with, right, you know, talk, continuously coming back to the dream, but it was, like, essentially closing one chapter. Now you're in this new chapter.
[00:06:13] If you had to think of a couple of moments that defined, you know, your in-house career, in-house, uh, uh, in, of, of a company, and now you're at, back into, to big law. Can you talk to us about a couple of defining moments for each of those chapters?
[00:06:29] Brittany Johnson: Yeah. Well, I would say, you know, uh, this, this new chapter, I'm just now reading.
[00:06:34] I just cracked it open and- Mm ... I'm figuring out what's gonna be- Page one. I know, page one. It is pa- it is page one. Um, and so I don't, I don't know what it holds yet, but I'm, I'm excited. I've just cracked it open and realizing there is another chapter, right? That like, oh my gosh, there's something else to read here.
[00:06:49] Um, so that feels, um, exciting, and I don't, I don't know what lies ahead. Um, and that's, that's good.
[00:06:56] Megan Senese: Yeah.
[00:06:56] Brittany Johnson: So, but it's good to be back in private practice. I'm, I'm in a, a regional law firm, and, um, I was in big law, and now I'm- This is going to be another interesting set I've never done. I've never been in this particular type of environment, so I'm excited to see what that holds.
[00:07:09] Is it different from BigLaw? What's it going to be like? I don't know. Um, so that's really exciting. But you know what I think about my, my in-house time, and maybe it's because I'm in this moment of being a bit of new, I'm kind of reminiscing on what it was like to be new then, right? And one of the, the memories that come to mind is what it was like my first few weeks when I first became an in-house lawyer.
[00:07:30] And I remember going to various meetings, meeting business leaders. We were talking strategy. We were talking about financial performance. We were talking about what was going to happen in the next five years, what products were going to be rolled out, what the, what the plans were. And I remember at the end of the week speaking with my boss at the time and kind of being confused Because I learned so much.
[00:07:53] It was incredibly enjoyable, but I, I hadn't written a memo, right? I didn't write a brief that week. Um, it was a very strange transition, and I remember him looking at me and saying, "Um, this is the job." Right? The job is for you to become part of the business engine. It's to be so fully integrated that you know what's coming and you're part of the decisions as they're being made real time.
[00:08:19] And so that was a real shift for me, and maybe that's kind of what I'm going through now too, is just that shift of, well, what does this mean and what does it look like? Because that's how you're able to be effective as an in-house lawyer. If you're not part and fully integrated into the business, then you're reactive, right?
[00:08:33] And you're being brought in at the last minute. You're fixing problems. You're fighting fires. Um, and so that was just a real, um, eye-opening moment for me when I first got there.
[00:08:43] Jennifer Ramsey: Did you work with outside counsel? Did you have outside counsel hiring decisions w- when you were in-house?
[00:08:49] Brittany Johnson: Yes, I worked with, uh, a, a lot of different legal teams, including the firm that I'm at now.
[00:08:53] I mean- Okay ... so one, one of the interesting things with this path is, uh, when you're an in-house lawyer, you're, you, you sometimes work with lots of different law firms, and you get to see what everyone is like and where you, you know, you know, how everyone works and what their style is. So yeah, I've, I've had, um, great, amazing outside counsel that I've worked with over the years.
[00:09:11] Jennifer Ramsey: The people who listen to... Our audience is composed of legal marketers, business developers, private practitioners. We have... There's the whole gamut of the legal industry. So whenever we have someone like you, who has direct in-house experience, we always like to ask about your experiences with outside counsel because what has happened in the past is we've had some of, um, CMOs at big law firms and regional law firms, they will, they will share this podcast with their legal marketing and business development team so that the legal marketers and business developers can understand what is on the mind of in-house counsel.
[00:09:50] What do they care most about? Why do they make the decisions that they make in terms of picking outside counsel? So, with that whole setup, would love to hear, of course, and we won't name any names, but I would, I'd love to hear, like, if there's one experience that you had with an outside firm that you were just like, "That was awesome what they did."
[00:10:11] I love them. That was, that was unique. I've never had that before. And then on the flip side of that question, maybe an experience with outside counsel that really soured you, and you were like, "Don't ever do this"-
[00:10:25] Megan Senese: Ooh ...
[00:10:25] Jennifer Ramsey: if you're listening.
[00:10:26] Brittany Johnson: Oh.
[00:10:27] Megan Senese: Well, yeah, we can't help ourselves- ... on the bus- we're like, "We wanna help people win work," but yes, we can't help ourselves.
[00:10:32] Yeah.
[00:10:32] Brittany Johnson: Okay. Um, well, things that, that wowed me and that I loved as, uh, when I was in-house counsel, I loved working with outside counsel who would provide their advice in a business-friendly format. I'm talking bullet points. I'm talking, uh, sound bites, sentences or two, bold, themes, right? Things like that, that I can take and that I can put in front of my business clients almost immediately.
[00:11:00] If what I get back is, um, uh, verbose and very long, I have to do a lot of work myself to package it so that it's ready for the business. So the ones that meet the mark where I'm like, "Yes, this is what I want," um, they have, they've, they've done the hard work of the analysis and bringing it all together, but then they've, um, they've exercised some, some restraint, and they've thought about what the business actually needs so that I don't have to do that myself.
[00:11:25] So I thought, I think that that's really great, and I'm always so excited when what I get back is something that is business-friendly. I love when outside law firms, um, also say something along the lines of, "Would you like me to X?"
[00:11:38] Megan Senese: Mm-hmm.
[00:11:40] Brittany Johnson: So as an in-house lawyer, I will come to you with a project or with a matter, and you might think that there's this, these four walls, right?
[00:11:47] This is what I want you to do. But you know that there's other pieces, uh, and other pieces of work and things that need to be done to really make this shine. Um, and so y- you, you don't just go and do that, but you come to me and say, "Would you like me to X?" That gives me the opportunity to say, "That's really smart.
[00:12:04] Um, you are thinking around corners. You're thinking about what's gonna be useful for the business moving forward, and yes, I want you to do X. That's very helpful." Um, so I love that. I love when, um, outside lawyers are able to feed me what's happening in the broader industry, what's happening at other brands, what's happening in the franchise industry.
[00:12:23] That's my beloved and chosen niche practice. Things that I don't see, because when you're in-house, you can become pretty confined by what's happening with your, in your own organization, right? So if I have outside lawyers who are giving me that outside broader view, it informs how I show up. But then here's what's really beautiful.
[00:12:41] I can go to my business clients and say, "Did you know that blah, blah, blah? Did you know that this is happening here?" Yes. "Did you know that this trend is happening?" And you know, my outside lawyers are okay with me selling that as, you know, something that I have learned, but I learned it through them. And so they're, they're making me look good, and they're also providing more value to the business outside of legal work that's based on broad, broad client base.
[00:13:02] So those are things that I l- I love, and I'm like, it, it's good for both of us, right? It's not just good for me. It's good for both of us, right?
[00:13:08] Megan Senese: Love, love, love, love. When people are giving you your, previously giving you the industry trends and insights, again, is it down to the bullet point situation, or is it you want to be invited to a lunch and learn, a CLE?
[00:13:23] Do you want 8,000 different law firm client alerts that are 500 pages long? Like, ta- talk, I'd love to learn just, like, a little... This is the business developer in us. We can't help ourselves. So,
[00:13:33] Brittany Johnson: like, a little bit of that. And I wanna learn this stuff too, right? So I think client alerts never really did it for me.
[00:13:40] Um, there, there, there are too many of them, they're too similar, and they're too long. I understand why you, why you do that, um, and why you have them and prepare them. I think it's really good for, um, younger, um, I wouldn't say younger, early career lawyers who are maybe learning the law and they want to find a way to hone that practice while also exercising that marketing muscle in a new way.
[00:14:01] So I think that's great for them. It's ne- I've never given work based on the client alert, ever. Um, so how I wanna learn about broad industry trends and what's happening in the market is I wanna just have a conversation. I wanna have an off the books, off the record, off the clock conversation about what you're seeing.
[00:14:19] And, and, and that's just really beneficial. I do love events where you're bringing other outside... your other clients together, um, where we can network and talk together in a friendly environment where you're the host. Um, you are, um, the, the, the party that's bringing all of us together where we, where we can learn from each other.
[00:14:39] So those, you know, GC panels, love them. That's where I learn- Yeah ... a lot and bringing that back to my own organization. Yep.
[00:14:46] Megan Senese: Yep. This is mus- music to our ears. I mean, it's all the best practices. Mm-hmm. Love, love that.
[00:14:50] Brittany Johnson: Yes. Yeah.
[00:14:51] Jennifer Ramsey: What
[00:14:51] Megan Senese: about the flip
[00:14:52] Jennifer Ramsey: side?
[00:14:53] Brittany Johnson: Well, I'd be interested to hear what you think as legal marketers on this one.
[00:14:56] Megan Senese: Sure. Okay. Tell us.
[00:14:58] Brittany Johnson: I don't like the hard sell.
[00:15:00] Megan Senese: Yeah.
[00:15:01] Brittany Johnson: Um, it, it's very uncomfortable. Um, and so I, I have been in situations before where I've, you know, started to build a relationship with someone, and then they get impatient and say, you know, "When is this going to, you know, is this gonna turn into work?" Um, after, like, not a long time, right?
[00:15:19] And I think with the messaging, the wires get crossed because I've, I've, I've said this before in other forums, and the outside lawyers have raised their hand and said, "But we're told to ask for the work." And there's a difference there between, you know, asking for the work, um, letting, letting in-house clients know that you're available and willing and excited, but then being demanding or putting them in an uncomfortable position.
[00:15:41] And I think that, like, that's something that needs... That, that, uh, we shouldn't have to say it, but apparently we do. So, you know, think about that.
[00:15:51] Megan Senese: So Jen and I are relationship first. It's nuanced, and when... I, I think the, the coaching and best practice is that you have to understand what works for that person and the person that you're talking to, right?
[00:16:03] So when we are s- when people are saying, "Ask for the work," it means don't forget to remind people that I have some clients who are only friends, and they, like, never talk about work. They're building these relationships, and that's beautiful. At some point, you do need to say, "I'd love to be able to help you with," fill in the blank.
[00:16:24] But it has to be this give-and-take conversation of, like, what are you working on right now? Oh, would it be helpful if I Sent you some materials. Would it be helpful if I invited you to our GC panel round table? Right? And that is how you start to ask for the work, not, Brittany, you and I have talked 16 times, and I was told after the 16th interaction that I'm supposed to get work.
[00:16:46] Like, what, what's in it for me? Maybe that works for some people, but that's not how Jen and I approach business development with our lawyers.
[00:16:53] Jennifer Ramsey: No. No. No. And you said a, a key word, Brittany, impatient. Yeah. Yeah. You know, that's business development and, and relationship development and all that, it, it requires a lot of patience and just, you know, being there and wanting to have a conversation, like you said.
[00:17:09] So yeah, I'm... We, we strongly believe you and back you and validate you on asking for work in a way that is more of a, a foregone conclusion, like it's going to happen, rather than coming at it from a supportive point of view or just asking, you know, to be considered. I mean, sometimes that's... 'Cause we, we do have clients who are like, "Oh, no, how, how do I, how do I ask for work?"
[00:17:32] And it's, like I said, it's nuanced and it's, it's by listening first. Like, understand what they need. You have to go above and beyond the legal course of, of just giving them l- giving people legal work. You have to give them something like you were talking about, like something that is business focused or related or that helps the business.
[00:17:52] And all those little trust points add up to a place where all of a sudden it might just be a natural segue to be like, "Well, hey, the next time that you are, you know, looking into XYZ, would love if I could be considered for that," or there's a relationship that has developed and flourished and... But from the point of view of the private practitioner, there hasn't been maybe, um, an opening or a glimmer of potentially moving forward in-
[00:18:19] Brittany Johnson: Mm-hmm
[00:18:20] Jennifer Ramsey: a business relationship. Mm-hmm. So saying something like, "I would love to be considered the next time you are looking for XYZ," how would that land?
[00:18:29] Brittany Johnson: It's creating it, an opening and, um, saying, "I'm interested," right? And while, while also not forcing action or being overly presumptuous, right? Just so, so I mean, it's, it's a lot of, of the principles of what we talk about generally in our careers, that if you don't ask, you're never gonna receive, right?
[00:18:50] If you don't tell someone that you want that leadership position, if you don't make it known that you want to work on X type of projects, you can't expect those things to, like, naturally flow, right? Yeah. So I... That is, that's just a human thing that we should all do as professionals. So that, to me, feels not jarring.
[00:19:07] It feels natural and sort of, you know, of course. You know? Of, of course I would, uh, think of you, right? The other thing I would add there is it's also a slow burn. So building relationships with outside counsel and turning them into business developing, um, opportunity, that's a slow burn. It can take years, right?
[00:19:28] And that's in part because of how in-house counsel careers are structured. So when you're new, um, a new in-house lawyer, if you're kind of early in your career, or you're maybe new to an organization, you are, you are learning the business first, right? And you're probably trying to solve problems on your own for a while.
[00:19:48] You might not, um, have a need or a desire to hire outside counsel because you're trying to show value in your own worth, right? But over time, as your s- as your scope grows, and as you, um, feel more comfortable bringing o- outside voices in, and, a- and as you develop the ability, like, to tap a budget, then you might have more opportunity to bring a- in-house outside counsel in.
[00:20:11] But that's not always the case on day one for a lawyer. Right. So that, that requires you, as an outside lawyer, being patient and developing that, that relationship over the long term, and also being okay with knowing it might never happen, right? Yeah, being patient and, um, spending, just spending time getting to know the person's really important.
[00:20:30] Jennifer Ramsey: I love that. I think it's good for, for outside lawyers to think about how is the in-house person's career structured. You mentioned taking it to your business team, like your business contacts. Like, who are those people? I think, I'm, I'm generalizing here, but as legal marketers and business developers, sometimes we don't spend a lot of time thinking about, okay, our client is the in-house counsel, general counsel, deputy associate, whatever they are.
[00:20:53] But they also have a bunch of other people to whom they are part of the team, perhaps they report to. They're making decisions, too. Like again, giving our legal marketers and business developer compadres out there, like, who are, who were your people-
[00:21:08] Brittany Johnson: Yeah ...
[00:21:08] Jennifer Ramsey: who you were also speaking with on the business side?
[00:21:11] Yes.
[00:21:12] Brittany Johnson: So, um, this is a really great point. So my, my people that I'm speaking to on the business side, we call those our clients. And I think that in-house lawyers should be thinking of those people as the client too, right?
[00:21:25] Megan Senese: Uh-huh.
[00:21:26] Brittany Johnson: Um, and so, um, those people are, um, uh, folks who are leading expansion organizations, who are, um, leading functions within those organizations, leading entire teams of people.
[00:21:39] Maybe they're s- individual salespeople who are trying to source new, uh, new opportunities. Maybe it's, uh, someone in HR, maybe it's someone on finance or accounting, but maybe it's also the ultimate kind of business revenue-driving business leaders. Those, I would all consider those to be my clients. To my earlier discussion about bullet points and speaking clar- with clarity and in a really concise way, that's not for me.
[00:22:04] That's for my clients, who are actually your clients. Yes. Right? Yeah. Um, and um, so I think that you should think not just of the in-house lawyer as your only client. Your client is the in-house lawyer, the broader organization, and the business partners, um, that the in-house lawyer, um, serves.
[00:22:22] Jennifer Ramsey: That is such a great, important point.
[00:22:24] We, we worked a lot with industry groups when we were, when we were in Big Law. I thought it was one of the most effective ways. It, it's more market-facing to help our c- our clients like you when you were in-house at Starbucks. It's, because it's not like, "Oh, let's just talk about litigation or bankruptcy" or whatever the, the practice area vertical was.
[00:22:41] We were looking across the market and the industry.
[00:22:45] Megan Senese: Were you often the only lawyer in the room when you were with your, with your clients?
[00:22:51] Brittany Johnson: Yes. Very, very often I was the only lawyer in the room. Yeah. And it, that was a change from being in private practice, right? Because in your private practice,
[00:23:00] Megan Senese: everyone's a lawyer.
[00:23:03] Brittany Johnson: Right? Um, and so it was a, it was definitely a transition when I moved in-house because not only am I the only lawyer in the room, I'm also realizing, and you come to realize very quickly, the lawyer is not the only voice, and that's by design, right? You are part of a group. You are part of a business team.
[00:23:20] You bring legal expertise, but that legal expertise does not make you more important than or uniquely qualified in comparison to your other partners, right? Y- your legal background is just, um, part of the unique capabilities that you bring to the table, but that doesn't make you the only voice or the most important voice.
[00:23:40] Interesting shift because in, in, in the private practice world, um, I think we're very lawyer-centric
[00:23:47] Jennifer Ramsey: Right. Yes. Yes. Yes.
[00:23:48] Megan Senese: Like, whatever the lawyer says goes- Yeah ... right? Like, you- I'm the lawyer, so I know, right? Like, I know all the things. And that still might be, like, the case. You know, sometimes you hear, oh, the, like, in-house is the department of no, right?
[00:24:00] Or we're the always, the, the lawyers are always the ones having to say, like, no to the risks and, and so how did you navigate through... Was that the same, was that the perception when you were in-house, or was it different? Talk to us about what that looked like and how you navigated those, those
[00:24:15] Brittany Johnson: obstacles.
[00:24:15] When I think back on my time in-house, um, the goal was never to be the department of no.
[00:24:21] Megan Senese: Yeah.
[00:24:21] Brittany Johnson: Sure. Right? The, the, the goal was to be, to find a way for the business to proceed while sharing the risks and i- identifying the risks that you are willing to take and those that you are not, right? And, um, and I think that how that, that was, that was a learning curve, right?
[00:24:33] To
[00:24:40] figure out is that comfortable or not. Because i- in private practice, it could have been, it can be easy to just identify risks and say, like, "Here are the risks," right? But that wasn't gonna cut it in in-house. Uh, you, you needed to share the risks. You needed to provide some options on a path forward. And, and the, the thing that was really interesting, two interesting things.
[00:24:59] One was being willing to s- stake a claim in which one you thought was right. So there were a few times early in my in-house career when I would give the menu of options, and I would say, you know, "Here, here are your options." And then the business partner would be like, "Yeah, but I wanna know what you think."
[00:25:12] "Which one do you wanna do?" I'd be like, "Well, you know, you have all these options, and here's how they rank in terms of risk." And he's like, "You're giving me lawyer stuff." "What do you
[00:25:21] Megan Senese: think?" Yeah.
[00:25:21] Brittany Johnson: Yes. And so being comfortable in, um, saying, "You know what? I'm, I'm gonna put my, uh, cards on the table. I'm gonna put my own skin in the game, and I'm going to say, 'Here's the, the, the way that I think that we should go,'" was, one, scary, but really empowering as well, right?
[00:25:36] Jennifer Ramsey: Yeah.
[00:25:36] Brittany Johnson: The other thing, too, that I think comes along with that is, um, when you do that, you are sharing and you're signaling to your teams that you are sharing in the upside- Hmm ... if it goes
[00:25:48] Megan Senese: great. Sure.
[00:25:49] Brittany Johnson: And you're, you're gonna share in the downside if it goes horribly wrong, right? And so by forcing you to take that position on what you think you should do, um...
[00:25:56] And then it doesn't always go your way, right? But either way, you have to lock arms and say, "We're gonna figure this out together. Um, and we're gonna own the consequences." Um, I think that's what really gains trust for an in-house lawyer.
[00:26:10] Megan Senese: Yeah. I, I was just thinking about that word, like, trust, trust, trust.
[00:26:14] Brittany Johnson: Oh, it's all
[00:26:14] Megan Senese: about trust.
[00:26:15] That means, that means not only do, does your, you know, your colleagues and your clients have to trust you, but you have to trust yourself, right? And that can be pretty terrifying, particularly when you're like, "Don't give any opinions. You just say, 'Here's the risk, here's the facts.'" Right? Mm-hmm. Where I, I gave you the risks, and so now having to move into that new, to that new framework.
[00:26:35] So what, what would you say to someone who's maybe just starting out in their career or still trying to figure out how to trust themselves? Well, how would you advise people or g- what best practices and tips would you give for those who are just starting out?
[00:26:52] Brittany Johnson: Well, I, I think it takes a lot of reps.
[00:26:56] Megan Senese: Mm.
[00:26:57] Brittany Johnson: I don't think that you come into your career as a lawyer having that trust in yourself.
[00:27:03] I think it's something that's cultivated over time. It- because if you, if you, if you automatically have that trust, I'm raising my eyebrows a little bit and wondering if you're making rash, risky, and cavalier decisions, right? I wa- I want there to be some level of, you know, um, like introspection before you're giving advice.
[00:27:22] But yeah, I, I think that you, it just, it takes time to develop a baseline amount, number of experiences that are similar enough from, that you can draw from so that you can make choices and recommendations moving forward. And that's why I think those first few years of practice are so hard because you're doing...
[00:27:42] Every new e- every experience is the first one ever. Everything is new in greenfield, and it's terrifying. Um, but eventually you will start seeing patterns. You'll start seeing, um, themes. You will see, have seen a flavor of the same argument before, the same problem or the same issue, and you can draw upon your past experiences to help you formulate, um, your thought on what happens moving forward.
[00:28:06] So, but that takes, that takes effort, and that takes time, and there's, there's no substitute for being in it, um, and, and going through those growing and sometimes painful moments to get you to the confidence that you need. I think I'd read something a long time ago. I'm trying to remember it exactly, but it was like, um, to, t- today's, um, discomfort breeds confidence for tomorrow.
[00:28:31] Megan Senese: Oh. Well, we love that.
[00:28:34] Brittany Johnson: I know. It's like Pinteresty. I'm sorry about that, but- No,
[00:28:37] Megan Senese: I like it. I love it. We
[00:28:38] Brittany Johnson: love it ... it, it's not mine. Um, but it, it, but it's, it just helps you realize that those turbulent moments that you're experiencing now ar- are- aren't for naught. They, they build you, they build up your confidence moving forward.
[00:28:51] Megan Senese: It, I mean, it also makes me think about the, the word we talked about before, which is patience, right? So like business development takes a long time, building trust in yourself takes a long time, starting new roles takes a new t- like every, like so many things it takes, just takes time, and it's hard when a l- so much of our just general culture is immediate, instant gratification and reward that when things don't go our way instantly, we're like, "Well, obviously this is because I'm a failure," right?
[00:29:20] Like you know? And so it just, it takes, it takes a really long time, so that, I think that's like a overarching theme here is that we ha- like patience and, and trust take, take a long time. It takes a long time to, to build all of that up.
[00:29:33] Jennifer Ramsey: I'd love to know, since you have worked for one of the most iconic brands in the world What brands right now, whether emerging or established, have caught your eye or catching your eye and, and that you're interested in?
[00:29:48] Brittany Johnson: Hmm.
[00:29:48] Jennifer Ramsey: Just even from a personal level, not even, not even professionally, or both.
[00:29:52] Brittany Johnson: Oh, man. Um, so brands that have my eye right now, as a consumer, um, I, the brands that I'm liking right now are kind of building on some of the success that you've already seen with other large companies. So I think Alo's doing some really cool stuff.
[00:30:10] I was just
[00:30:10] Megan Senese: thinking of them. Yeah.
[00:30:11] Brittany Johnson: Yeah. Yes. In the women's apparel space, I'm kind of intrigued by Abercrombie and what they have going on right now.
[00:30:17] Megan Senese: Right? And
[00:30:17] Brittany Johnson: their turn,
[00:30:17] Megan Senese: and their turnaround?
[00:30:19] Brittany Johnson: Yes. I think, I, that's, that's a company that I'm definitely watching with a lot of interest because, you know, elder millennial here, um- Yeah.
[00:30:27] Abercrombie was a, was a part of my youth, right? And, um, and then it became, you know, not fashionable, not cool. There was a, you know, brand crisis, but I mean, they've repositioned themselves now in a really unique and interesting way that, that kind of draws on that nostalgia that we might have for the brand, and I, I, I love seeing them expand internationally.
[00:30:48] That's, that's what I love. I love seeing and working on helping brands grow globally. And, um, so that's one where it feels very uniquely American to me, and I wonder how it's going to show up abroad, and, um, I'm just fascinated by it, and I'm following along and, very closely, Abercrombie.
[00:31:08] Jennifer Ramsey: You mentioned, like, expanding outside of the United States, which when you were at Starbucks, you were responsible for Latin American Caribbean, in the Caribbean region.
[00:31:17] So first of all, did you get to travel to those places?
[00:31:19] Brittany Johnson: Yeah, I did get to travel to those, uh, places, and oh my gosh, some of the most incredible memories of my career.
[00:31:26] Jennifer Ramsey: From, from the point of view of you being a franchise and licensing attorney, what did your job look like when you went there? Like, what did you do?
[00:31:35] Brittany Johnson: Yeah. So one of the things that's really important for brands when you expand internationally is that you make sure that your brand is still showing up the way that you would want it to, right? So, um, one of the things that we would always do is spend time in market, was what we would say, in market, understanding, um, how the stores look, how they're merchandised, how, how products are selling, how the people who are working behind the bars are feeling.
[00:32:01] That was always, um, important as a licensor, franchisor to understand. It's also really important as a franchisor to understand the local market. Right? Uh, to understand what consumer activities and behaviors are. Um, where, where are they buying food? Where are they buying their clothes? Is the product that you're selling a daytime occasion or an evening occasion?
[00:32:24] Who are your target demographic? What are they buying when they're there? So it's really doing market research was one, and of course, um, meeting with your franchisees there. Those are the people who are the face, uh, of your brand. And so checking in with them, building, you build relationships with them, right?
[00:32:42] To understand what their challenges are, how you can help as a franchisor. Um, so that was some of the work that, that we, we were doing, and it's, it's a lot like business development like we're talking about here today. You need to stay close to the, to the people who are bringing your brand to life in a market.
[00:32:58] And, um, that was a way for us to do that. And then also just keeping the... And, and staying close with your colleagues and d- developing those ties. So all of those things, um, all of those things really mattered. So yeah.
[00:33:09] Jennifer Ramsey: I love this area of law, and if I were a lawyer, I'd want to go into this area of law.
[00:33:13] It's just the most interesting to me.
[00:33:14] Brittany Johnson: I'll tell you, Jennifer, how it came, uh, it came about, mm, 'cause who goes to law school wanting to be a franchise lawyer? Not me.
[00:33:23] Jennifer Ramsey: Right?
[00:33:23] Megan Senese: Maybe
[00:33:24] Brittany Johnson: there's someone.
[00:33:24] Megan Senese: We don't know.
[00:33:26] Brittany Johnson: There's, there's actually a line. Do you remember the show Girls on HBO?
[00:33:29] Megan Senese: Yes. Mm-hmm.
[00:33:30] Brittany Johnson: Okay. There was a line in there where Lena Dunham's character is, uh, looking for a lawyer, and sh- they s- you know, talk about somebody's uncle, and they're like He's not a lawyer, he's a sandwich lawyer.
[00:33:40] He's just a franchise lawyer. And I was like, "Yeah."
[00:33:44] Megan Senese: That's funny, sandwich lawyer. That's what I am, I'm a sandwich lawyer.
[00:33:47] Brittany Johnson: Yeah, I mean, you're, I mean, it, it's, on paper you might not think it's the most interesting thing, but I think it, it was fascinating. How it started for me, I was in big law as an associate working away one, um, afternoon, and the partner who'd just joined the firm came to me, and he opened my door, and he dropped a book called Franchising for Dummies on my desk, and told me to read it, uh, by the morning, um, because he had a franchise case that he wanted me to work on.
[00:34:15] And I was upset about it, um, because I had other things to do, and this was not gonna be billable work, and I thought that title was insulting. And, um- I read it anyway, and I realized, um, there's a whole body of law out there- Yeah ... um, I didn't know anything about, and, um, maybe there's work here and a career here that others aren't tapping in the same way, and maybe there's a need here.
[00:34:40] Jennifer Ramsey: Yes.
[00:34:40] Brittany Johnson: Um, and I found out that book later is a very famous book in the franchise world. It's written by Dave Thomas, and another very famous au- author, um, in the franchise world, and it really- He's
[00:34:51] Jennifer Ramsey: from Wendy's, right?
[00:34:52] Brittany Johnson: Yeah. He, yes, yes. But yeah, so that, that's how it all began with, um, uh, Franchising for Dummies.
[00:34:58] Megan Senese: So your, your career began with a assignment- ... an overnight assignment- Yes ... that you didn't want to read- Yes ... that was non-billable. Glamorous. Just, okay. That, that might be how we open up the episode.
[00:35:10] Jennifer Ramsey: Well, and the title was Franchising for Dummies. I mean, right? Like, okay. Like...
[00:35:14] Brittany Johnson: I mean, but who would've thought, right?
[00:35:16] Right. Um, and I, I've, I've told that story many times over the, in the past, because it could've been very easy to turn my nose up at it all, right? And to not take it seriously, or not try to see through my own emotions about- My non-billable assignment. But, um, it, it just piqued my interest in a way that I kind of continued to pull that thread a little bit, and it, and it's led me to a whole career of franchise work.
[00:35:41] So, yeah.
[00:35:41] Megan Senese: That's very cool. So as we're wrapping up, what's next? What's next
[00:35:46] Brittany Johnson: for you? What is next for me? Um, so what I know is next is I'm joining a team that I'm so excited about. I'm joining a firm that I've just been blown away by the welcome that I've received here. It feels so good-
[00:35:58] Megan Senese: Oh ...
[00:35:58] Brittany Johnson: to be just, like, welcomed with open arms.
[00:36:01] It's just, it's amazing. I am so excited about helping the next generation of brands, about serving our existing clients, and about seeing where this goes. Um, I've just opened up this chapter. You know, I, I wanna take what I've learned as an in-house lawyer, what works, what doesn't, and I think that will help me provide great client service.
[00:36:18] Um, but this is a new muscle, and so you better believe I'm gonna listen to So Much To Say.
[00:36:23] Megan Senese: Oh. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Thank you. We love that. It feels like a beautiful place to, to, to end, and we really appreciate you giving us your time, and, you know, so many of our conversations are be- became where I'd, you know, cold call, essentially, outreach, but I'd seen your content, and I think that's a beautiful thing in terms of how people are able to come together.
[00:36:44] And so thank you for, for being on and being open and sharing your story with us, and it's just been a pleasure to hear and share and get to know you.
[00:36:53] Brittany Johnson: Thank you for the opportunity, ladies. This has been so fun, and, um, I'm excited to get started with you.
[00:37:01] Megan Senese: This episode is brought to you by Vista Consulting.
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[00:38:02] They really are priding themselves on trying to be a consultancy that gets in the trenches with you, that's going to stand beside you the whole way and cheer you from the sidelines, and be part of your team. For more information about Vista Consulting, visit them at www.vistact.com.