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Interesting people, insightful points of view and incredible stories on what’s popping and not popping in marketing, tech, and culture you can use to win immediately. Brands, Beats and Bytes boldly stands at the intersection of brand, tech and culture. DC and Larry are fascinated with stories and people behind some of the best marketing in the business. No matter how dope your product, if your marketing sucks your company may suck too. #dontsuck
DC: [00:00:00] Brand Nerds. Brand Nerds. Brand Nerds. Oh, you know what it is already. You know what it is? Brands Beats and Bytes podcast. Back at you. Larry, this one takes me back. This one takes me back.
LT: Tell us.
DC: Brand nerds, before I started my career in marketing, I had two foundational experiences that I didn't know were connecting me to brand management and marketing.
My first job, first job out of undergrad, was selling cars at the largest Chevrolet dealership, one of them in the country called Dexter Chevrolet in Detroit. My job after that, literally following on that was in retail, at a department store. Long since gone [00:01:00] called JL Hudsons. JL Hudsons. JL Hudsons was at one point I think acquired by major retailing operation out of Minneapolis that went on to do other things.
Why do I mention both of these experiences? Because they were both sales. Both sales, and we describe our marketing craft as a combination of psychology really getting into the mind of the buyer and entertainment. I will tell your Brand Nerds, retail and particularly at at in stores is one of the hardest chops you will ever have in your career.
LT: So true
DC: and I, I was a department manager first. I was a trainee, then I was a department manager. The level [00:02:00] of stuff that we went through to get someone to buy whatever it was in the store, it was enormous. And that like understanding how to sell something no matter where you were in the corporate labyrinth, if you were in the retail game, you understood what motivated people to buy things.
And it was seminal to me to learn that I would not be on this podcast without that experience and Brand Nerds, today we have someone who understands retail marketing and selling things across a spectrum of different retailers, frankly, lt, about our, our next guest. I don't know how she continued to stay in the game and go from company to company and rise up.
Me. I tapped out. I was like, I can't, I can't do, I just [00:03:00] can't do this anymore. But she continued to do it. Brand Nerds, special day today. 'cause you are gonna hear about someone who is a marketer, high level marketer that knows how to sell shit at retail. Larry, can you tell the peoples who we have in the building today?
LT: What a great setup, D. That's awesome. Uh, DC We have Shawna Hausman in the house today. Welcome, Shawna.
Shawna Hausman: Nice to see you. Nice to be here.
LT: We we're really thrilled to have you as DC alluded to. And, and, uh, Shawna, now's the time that we have to, uh, tell the Brand Nerds really the full scope of your background.
DC said, did such a great job in the setup. Alright. Brand nerds. We are coming to you today with someone who steadily rose through the ranks, first in finance. Then as an innovative digital marketer driving great results in becoming a super successful CMO. Let's walk you through Shawna's fantastic [00:04:00] journey, starting with her graduating from Brown University with an undergrad degree in international commerce and Hispanic studies.
After graduation, Shawna and friends figure, eh, it would be fun to spend the summer in San Francisco before coming back to New York and starting quote unquote real jobs. But while in San Francisco, a family friend is running real estate for the Gap Corporation and Shawna obtains a obtains a real estate strategy internship at the end of Summer, real Jobs in San Francisco seem like a really good idea.
I can relate, Shawna. Also, this is the late nineties and the Gap Corporation is thriving. Shawna seeks a job there in marketing, but at the time, only Old Navy finances hiring. Shawna has advised, taking a job, learning, quote unquote, retail math is good for her career long term, and she takes this position after doing this job for a couple of years and dabbling in some ill-fated startups.
Yes, this is the late nineties, early two thousands in the Bay Area. Shawna decides to go back to business school at Columbia [00:05:00] University where she earns, earns her MBA in marketing. While at Columbia, Shawna obtains an internship with Bed Bath and Beyond and receives an offer post-graduation where she works as a Business Planner and Buyer.
While at Bed, Bath and Beyond, Sean is inserted into the Harmon Health and Beauty division, building a consumer goods store within a store concept for the main Bed, Bath and Beyond stores. After four successful years at Bed, Bath and Beyond, Sean is boss at Old Navy, recruits her to join the new Martin Osa division of American Eagle.
The positioning for this brand is higher end and older think, um, than, than the American Eagle consumer think at the time. Similar to Banana Republic positioning in the Gap Corporation, which they messed up later. We won't get into that now. Shawna starts as a finance manager and after two years she fully transitions into e-commerce, e-commerce marketing, where she runs the point on the launch of the, of the M and O website.
For context Brand Nerds, this is going down in [00:06:00] 2008, which happens to be the worst economy since the Great Depression. Given this economy, Martin and Osa is shut down at this point, Shawna then joins retailer, West Elm as director of E-Commerce, where she runs e-commerce and CRM. Working closely with the tech team, they establish West Elm as the tech innovation hub for parent Williams Sonoma Inc.
Who has old school catalog roots. D, check this out. West Elm e-Commerce becomes the fastest growing business unit within Williams Sonoma, Inc. With a 116% two year growth rate. After this great success, Shawna gets a great promotion opportunity to join Giggle as their VP of E-commerce and digital marketing, where she has full control for e-commerce marketing and creative.
Giggle offers children's basics with a twist designed to take kids from school time to playtime to bedtime and beyond. At Giggle, Shawna rebuilds and re platforms, the giggle.com website while launching a registry rewards loyalty [00:07:00] program and related native app that drives a 16% increase of registry value and a 61 per percent increase in registry purchases.
Again, getting those sales that DC alluded to so hard. Brand Nerds, as you continue to chalk up wins like Sean is doing, people take a notice. An interesting op opportunities come your way. It is 2016 2016, and Sean is recruited to join Mission Athlete Care as their EVP of E-commerce and digital marketing Brand Nerds, Mission is the Cooling towel company co-founded in 2009 by a group of world-class athletes, including Serena Williams, Dwayne Wade, and Drew Brees, who just made the Hall of Fame. Shawna is brought in to build a website and eCom and an e-commerce team, and supports a new apparel line, and she has full P&L ownership for all direct businesses.
In typical Shawna fashion, Shawna and her team drive a 67%, that's right, 67% year over year e-commerce growth, and a [00:08:00] 132% year over year Amazon growth. When one is an accomplished marketer like Shawna, you relish challenges. In 2018, Shawna's presented with one of those challenges where she joins Victoria's Secret as VP of E-Commerce after being a cultural phenomenon in plateauing in the early two thousands.
When Shawna joined the company in 2018, the Victoria's Secret brand is dealing with many challenges. Shawna is a central part of the team collaborating on the strategic plan to bring more body type and skin color diversity to this heritage lingerie brand with arguably the most significant cultural impact on body positivity worldwide at the time.
But then Brand Nerds. Sean is presented with a great opportunity to become CMO For FSA store. FSA store is a digital marketplace that serves 60 plus million consumers with tax free health and wellness accounts. Responsibilities include managing digital P&L while overseeing performance and brand marketing, e-commerce, site analytics and creative.
An integral part of the work. Sean and Team, uh, [00:09:00] executes is redesigning the brand and replatforming the website. In Sean's three year, 10 year CMO, they drive a 300% increase in top line sales. You heard me right? 300%. Talk about real results after leaving FSA, Shawna has focused on consulting and in September of last year, Shawna became founder and CEO of AAA Growth Agency where they help 50 to $100 million retail and consumer brands assess, align and accelerate growth.
There's the, your triple A, through hands-on digital and e-commerce leadership. Additionally, since 2018, Shawna serves on the Board of Advisors for Commerce Next, a community event series and annual conference for e-commerce and marketing executives at Direct to Consumer Brands. Brand Nerds, you can see why we're really looking forward to this one.
Welcome to Brands, Beats and Bytes. Shawna Hausman.
Shawna Hausman: Thank you. Thank you. Really happy to be here. I'm dizzy when I hearing back at the career and all the moves, I'm, I'm dizzy just thinking about it.
LT: Well, [00:10:00] when you generate the results you have, Shawna, that's what happens. Really.
Shawna Hausman: It is a really, uh, as you know, the CMO type roles are, you know, it's like a, a two year expiration date, right.
You say, I, I've heard you guys talk about that and I, I totally agree. It's like the minute you walk in that door, they, the clock starts ticking.
LT: Yep. So true.
DC: It, it has been that way for a long time. Uh, Shawna, and I'd like to say to the Brand Nerds that, Larry and I see that changing as in the time expanding.
Uh, as we look into the future, we do not. Yeah. Right. I think it's, it's going to be shrinking, but that does not mean, that does not mean that marketing is, in some way losing its relevance is even more important today.
LT: Yeah.
DC: It's just more pressure on it because it's such a vital part of, of an organization and I like it when Larry does these introductions, watching Shawna, our guest [00:11:00] listen to it and it's as if they are watching a movie or listening to a narration of something that they didn't do.
It's like, oh, mm. Okay. It's something that, that you did and that o other guests do. And those are your flowers, Shawna, those are your flowers. Well earned. Well earned.
Shawna Hausman: Well, thank you. I really appreciate it.
DC: We are going to go to the Get Comfy section. Brand Nerds, as you may have noticed in the introduction, Larry talked about Shawna graduating Brown University and saying, Hey, you know, my friends, and I think we're gonna leave the, the, the Northeast and kinda kick it out to the west, upper West Coast and in California, in San Francisco.
So they decided they were gonna hang out there for the summer and with every intention of coming back to the east, but she didn't make it back to the east. She got a [00:12:00] real job. And the real job was in the world of, uh, of gap. Now, brand nerds, when we say the gap as a retail store today, we're mentioning this in 2026, some of you all may be thinking, yeah, I know the store.
Yeah, it's, it's kind of okay. Yep. Good brand, good company. Brand Nerds, let me just tell you. When Shawna went there, like The Gap was The Gap. It it there, it was not like amongst those retail stores, it was a juggernaut. Dare I say The Gap was one of the few brands in this country and the world that could move culture.
LT: Yes.
DC: That's how important The Gap was. Mm-hmm. It was not some also ran retail store. I'm not suggesting that's what it is now, but in the pantheon of brands back then, the gap was something really, really special. So
LT: Ian, I wanna just add one quick thing. Not only was the [00:13:00] Gap itself a brand, but the corporation also had the Banana Republic.
Yep. And then Old Navy was fledging, which again, in my opinion, ended up doing, being their downfall. But they were a a, a few brands that really resonated. Yes.
DC: Great point Larry. Great point. And when you have a brand that, and a company, thank you for that, Larry. That is at literally the tip of the spirit driving culture.
It's hard to get in.
LT: Yeah.
DC: Like you, you can't, you can't just open the doors to anyone.
LT: Right.
DC: You've got to be selective. And by the way, brand nerds, when you have brands like that, everybody wants to work there.
LT: That's right.
DC: They're beating on the doors to work there. So for every one job there's innumerable candidates.
So now Shawna, you arrive at the gap. You are, you're like, you're going in intern. It's your first day. And Brand [00:14:00] Nerds you've heard us say before, we know this phrase. We've heard it before. You only get one chance to make a first impression. So our, our question to you, Shawna, is can you let us know about your first day as an intern at the Vaunted The Gap Corporation.
Shawna Hausman: Yes. It, it, I remember it literally like it was yesterday. It was such a, it was, it's so memorable a moment in my life. Um, so I, it was a little unique because I had already graduated from college when I did this internship. Most of the people there were going into their senior year. But, you know, I kind of wiggled my way in, uh, with a connection because I said, you know, we're just gonna be out there for the summer, as you mentioned.
And I said, yeah, you know, can you get me into this program? I need something to do for the summer. This seems interesting. And, um. You know, so I show up on the first day and they [00:15:00] are kind of shuttling us around, telling us what's where, and they say, all right, we're gonna take you into the, into the executive conference room and you're gonna meet Mickey Drexler.
So, you know, I don't know if everyone, uh, listening to this really knows about Mickey Drexler. You know, at the time he was really the retail god. Right.
LT: Give a little background. 'cause I think most, uh, you know, some of us do, but many of us don't. Just give a quick snippet of, of what Mickey was at the time.
'cause he, he was a legend. Go ahead.
Shawna Hausman: Yeah. Um, you know, he, he was someone who really could, could build up these companies and, and create brands. And he understood product like no one else, you know, at that time, you know, they ultimately dubbed him the Merchant Prince.
LT: Mm-hmm.
Shawna Hausman: You know, he, he was the one who really.
Took denim and turned denim into the foundation of your wardrobe. Mm-hmm. You know, you had Levi's in San Francisco [00:16:00] and they were making great denim for, you know, from forever.
LT: Mm-hmm.
Shawna Hausman: And they had a great vision for the denim. But, but Mickey said, I'm, I'm gonna do the denim, but I'm gonna turn that into an entire wardrobe.
Your whole, that's gonna be just the foundation of your look. So, you know, and he really hit on something. He kind of created this look that I would say to this day. I mean, you ask anybody. What are you wearing on a normal day-to-day basis? And they'll say, well, I throw out my jeans and, uh, then I pick out a sweater or shirt or whatever, and maybe they're, maybe it's, you know, black denim or blue or light or dark or whatever.
LT: Mm-hmm.
Shawna Hausman: And you kind of, you know, almost everybody I know, at least that's what you do. You get up and you pick that, and then you figure out what you're gonna put with it. So that all really started, um, with Mickey Drexler.
LT: Yep.
Shawna Hausman: And in addition to being this retail genius, he also was, let's just say a big, big personality.
Mm-hmm. You know, and, and he was notorious for this, [00:17:00] you know, he was moving fast and he, you know, really wanted to hear from everyone. He really listened to, everybody wanted everyone's point of view. And he was just like, you know, he was really, he, he was like moving faster than everybody else. And so he comes.
Like running into this conference room, you know, like, I've got five minutes, everybody. All right. And, and everyone's sitting around this huge board table and he comes in and he is like, all right, all right, good to meet everyone. You know what's going on? What's going on? What do you think, what do you think of the brand?
Tell me something. Tell me something about the brand. What do you think? What do you think? What do you think? And everybody's at the table, and they're all like, because he's like, you could tell the energy is really high.
DC: Mm-hmm.
Shawna Hausman: And everyone's sitting there totally silent. And I'm looking around and I was like, so I raised my hand.
And he says, all right, yeah. What, what? [00:18:00] And I said, I don't think you're doing a very good job marketing to college students.
DC: Oh, oh, oh, coming in hot.
Shawna Hausman: And he says, what do you mean? Why not? And I said, well. Um, and I might have said selling, but I, I, I kind of, you know, it all kind of got rolled into one. Mm-hmm.
I said, you know, when I was at Brown, right in the, the main area where the campus was, there was a Gap store, but because it was kind of a, a, a fancier area and people would come as tourists and whatnot, they would take all of the sale product and ship it down to downtown Providence to a different store.
Now, at the time, I didn't really understand this kind of store tiering strategy, and this is something that's very common in retail, right? You have mm-hmm. They might be your flagship stores. You have in cities that are really, like, they have special products. You've got, you know, mid-level and then lower [00:19:00] level where they're mostly gonna be sale product.
I didn't really understand that as a strategy, but I saw it happening.
DC: Mm-hmm.
Shawna Hausman: And I said, college kids don't have the money to shop full price. I said, so you're missing out on all of these? All of these kids, I said, and I said also, you know, you're not really marketing to college student, like college age kids.
You know, you've got a lot going on and there's big, you know, capital "B" brand, but it's not really speaking to these college students who like, don't really have a ton of money to spend and this and that. And I think the whole room was like, Ooh, I can't believe she said that.
DC: Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
Shawna Hausman: And he was like, all right.
He's like, I want a, I want a report on my desk. I want a proposal on my desk tomorrow what you would do. I wanna know what you would, what you suggest. And then he walks outta the room. So I'm like, oh my God. You know,
LT: What did I get myself into?
Shawna Hausman: Anxiety levels [00:20:00] going up, right? So. I go home and I'm like, I gotta, I gotta write this thing up.
DC: Mm-hmm.
Shawna Hausman: So I, I start thinking about it now, my brother, who was also in college, he was younger, had been recruited to work for something called, um, the Student Advantage Card, which was kind of like a discount card before anyone really knew about these kinds of discount cards. And it was something that you could get it as a college student and people would participate.
You know, you bring it in, you get 20% off this or whatever, 30% off that. So I wrote up a whole thing about, you know, a, the whole thing about getting more discount product in the stores and you, the college students, but also, um, to potentially use this, be a part of this program, the Student Advantage Card.
So I wrote this whole thing up and I got some information on it. I put it in a, in a document, and I bring it to his office the next day. And he reads through it and he says, I don't agree with any [00:21:00] of this. But I like that you said something and I was like, okay. And he says, I'm gonna, I'm gonna send you, talk to the CMO.
I'm gonna, I'm gonna call him and set up a meeting for you, and so you can go talk, tell him what you, what you think we should do differently. All right?
DC: Mm-hmm.
Shawna Hausman: So he sets up this meeting and I have to go over and I'm in the room now. As you were saying, this is the moment of gap, at the height of its influence, the height of its marketing power.
And at the time there were these campaigns running, which were actually not so different from what's running these days.
LT: Mm-hmm.
Shawna Hausman: Which they called the khakis. Khakis swing, khakis, groove. Um, you know, khaki's Rock, I think, and they had all these people dancing and it was very, uh, um, they were doing that kind of filming where, you know, where they kind of do a stop motion.
A, they were like spinning it around, you know? Yeah. When you, they have the, and then they can stop and they [00:22:00] would stop on people up in the air doing these jumps and jives. Mm-hmm. And I mean, it was like winning every award. This campaign was so successful. It's TV campaign. So I walk into this guy, Michael McCadden, I swear if I could reach out to him and say, Michael, I'm really sorry.
I walk in as this 22-year-old kid. And he's like, basically, why did Mickey send you to meet with me? And I said, well, he wants me to talk to you about my ideas for college, for marketing to college students.
LT: Mm-hmm.
Shawna Hausman: And he's like, oh yeah. Um, and I proceed to tell him that, you know. At the time, everything was like, I don't know if you can picture this, but everything was in this blue box.
There was like, gap was written a certain way and it was in a blue box. Yep. They did a whole campaign, like a magazine ad campaign where they had people like kind of sitting in the box, sitting inside looking very like, she,
DC: I remember. Yeah.
Shawna Hausman: And there was one person in a box and I [00:23:00] said, you know, college kids, they don't see themselves in this like sad box situation.
They don't wanna be alone in a, in a box looking sad and depressed. Mm-hmm. I said, you should have them, you know, doing fun group activities, you know, playing volleyball or throwing a Frisbee on the beach or something, you know, that's gonna make them feel excited and part of a, a fun experience. Now, at the time, what I didn't really realize, of course I was basically describing American Eagle.
I mean, that's what has, right. American Eagle has taken advantage of. So I'm kind of explaining this whole thing to him and uh, and he basically says to me. Something to the effect of, I have the world's like
DC: Shawna, Hold on a second. Be before you get through. What is it? As you are explaining this? Yeah. And, and, and Michael's looking at you.
What are the vibes? So before you get done and he gives, like, what's happening as you're talking to him,
Shawna Hausman: seems like [00:24:00] he was just like, like, get out, get outta, get outta here. Like I, he was just like, I can't even,
DC: okay. Okay.
LT: Why are you here?
DC: I get it. Yeah, I get it.
Shawna Hausman: What's, you know, he was just sort of like, um, and he says something like, I am running the most successful award-winning marketing campaign in the country right now.
Maybe the world.
DC: Yeah.
Shawna Hausman: He's like, I think we're doing okay.
DC: Mm.
Shawna Hausman: You know, something like this.
DC: Mm-hmm.
Shawna Hausman: And I was like. Okay. I can't even believe that Mickey sent me in to go tell this guy what I thought about, uh, marketing to college students. Uh, he didn't appreciate that very much. I think that was kind of Mickey's way.
He, he always liked to hear what the youngest people were saying. You know, he would go into a store and the first thing he would do in a store walkthrough was find the newest [00:25:00] employee, you know, the kid that was folding t-shirts over there in the corner and say, what are we doing right? What could we be doing better?
DC: Mm-hmm.
Shawna Hausman: I wanna hear it. He didn't wanna hear from the senior executives who maybe like, were kissing his ass. Right. He wanted to know the unfiltered, you know, fresh eyes point of view. Um, so, you know, Michael McCadden was not thrilled with me coming over there and telling him this, but. Um, you know, this whole thing definitely got Mickey's attention because a couple days later I'm sitting at my desk.
Um, now my mind you, I have an internship in real estate strategy. That's the, that's where they could squeeze me in because the thing had already been full for months. They're like, well, we'll, we'll give you an internship, but you're gonna be in San Bruno. And Larry, you know what that is? Like, I'm taking a bus down south every day from the city and real estate strategy.[00:26:00]
So I'm at my desk and I'm like, you know, and I get a call and I hear someone's like whispering and she's the, it's it's Mickey's assistant. And she says, you know, Mickey wants to know if you can be at the private jet hanger in 20 minutes. And I said, what? I said what? She said, he wants to know if you can come on a stores trip, can you be there in 20 minutes?
And so I asked my boss, he's like, yeah, go, go.
DC: Yeah.
Shawna Hausman: And I end up on this, his, the corporate jet with him and other senior executives. And he is doing a, like a, it was probably a regional manager's conference. He had to make a quick appearance out in Vegas. And the idea was he was gonna do that real quick and then do a bunch of stores in the area with the executive team and like looking at what's, look, looking good and not, so I'm, again, I'm like having a nervous [00:27:00] breakdown.
I think that this was like, you know, I think it took me a year to recover from the anxiety of these first two weeks at this job. Um, so I end up on this jet and he is actually giving, at the same time as we're flying, he is doing an interview with Fortune Magazine, when, which is the article that he was on the cover of in the jeans and the white button down with the headline of Mickey Drexler Merchant Prince.
And that was the moment that they, he re this guy really dubbed him the Merchant Prince, which has carried throughout his whole career. So I'm on this plane and I'm like, oh my God, it is crazy. And you know, and I'm sitting there and next to me is this woman is the head of merchandising for the corporation.
So she's like the EVP of merchandising and she is getting sicker and sicker from the, from the flight. And she's like in and outta the bathroom, like throwing up in the bathroom. And, you know, we [00:28:00] get, get on the ground and we're in this, these huge SUV right? And we're going towards the conference and he's gotta be there at a certain time.
And she's like. You gotta let me outta this car. So they pull, the guy driver pulls over the side of the highway and she's like, I gotta get outta this car. So she hops out, they're like, well send the car back for you. And I'm like, you can't leave her alone on the side of the road. I'm like, I'll go, I'm gonna go with her.
You just send a, I don't know what to do, but this woman is like totally sick and you're gonna leave her on the side of this like highway in, in, you know, Vegas, outside of Vegas. So I'm on the side of the road with her and she's like, she's throwing up and she keeps turning to me saying, if you ever need anything, just call me.
I feel, thank you for staying. If you ever need a job, just call me.
LT: What a story.
Shawna Hausman: This is the most bizarre thing that's ever. What a story. And, and the weird little side note is that this woman that was his assistant, his personal [00:29:00] assistant, this woman Aileen Lee. Has gone on to a very successful career in venture capital, and she is the one who coined the phrase unicorns.
LT: Wow.
Shawna Hausman: Really? She came up with that terminology. She was doing that job out of Harvard Business School. She was his like body person. She was with him at all times. And, um, you know, so she, she was, it was considered a special assistant role. And, uh, and so yeah, she went on to do a lot. She, she became in, uh, very successful in her own right, down the road.
LT: What a great story.
DC: And, and Shawna? The, uh, it, was it Aen? Aileen,
Shawna Hausman: yeah. A-I-L-E-E-N. Aileen Lee.
DC: Okay. Aileen. Now, was Aileen, uh, the person who was on the side of the road, or was that the person that called you and asked if you could be at the hangar in 20 minutes?
Shawna Hausman: She called me. She's the one that called me 'cause she was probably in a room with him.
DC: Okay.
Shawna Hausman: Alright. Got it. In the [00:30:00] meeting. And she's like, can you get there?
DC: Okay. This, this, I've never heard a story like this. This is an incredible story. Larry, do you have any reactions or thoughts? I do have some, but...
LT: please go.
DC: Woo woo Shawna. Okay. Uh, you were, did you say 22 at the time?
Shawna Hausman: Yeah, I was 22. 22.
DC: Alright, so let's take yourself back to your 22-year-old self. Not now your 22-year-old self. You get a job as an intern. You're not in school, you're outta school. Everybody else, everybody else there is in school. Drexler pops up in the meeting. Ask, Hey, talk to me. Talk to me. What, what, what do you like?
What's going on? Nobody says a peep. You sheepishly raise your hand. They call on you [00:31:00] and you basically say you're not doing well in marketing to college students. He asked,
Shawna Hausman: That's correct.
DC: For a uh, he asked for a report The next morning, you then do this report. You find your way into the merchant princess office, and I have to say probably I'm going out on a limb here.
Larry and Shawna, you were not on his agenda for that next day. That's right. There was not a spot that said, Shawna Hausman is coming to see me at the give me a half hour. Right?
Shawna Hausman: That's correct.
DC: This was a drive by. You go in. Yeah, you go in, you go in, you talk to him. He makes the time. He's a busy dude. He makes the time.
You talk to him and he basically says that idea is crap. The how, but the what? The what and the why. There's something there. You need to go talk to Michael, the CMO. Yeah. He organizes a meeting [00:32:00] with the CMO who has no idea why you're sitting in front of him.
LT: He is like, who is this person?
DC: Yeah, that's right.
Who is this 22-year-old person who's not even in marketing? Okay.
LT: Who's telling me I suck.
DC: Right.
Shawna Hausman: Real? I was in real estate. Real
DC: estate. I'm working in real estate. She's, you are working in real estate and you're sent by the president to go tell the marketing head how he needs to do a better job on his marketing.
Shawna Hausman: That's
DC: right. And then as you are in your real job trying to get your retail game on, you get a call from the special assistant who ask you if you could be on a plane. In 20 minutes to go do store checks. Do I have all that right? Shawna,
Shawna Hausman: That's, that is, that is correct DC That is correct.
DC: You also said s Shawna, that Mickey, when he does his store checks, you said they were [00:33:00] going to Vegas to do a speech, but he organized going to see stores 'cause he likes to go see stores.
And you also said, when he goes to see these stores, he looks for the person who's the newest on the job, folding t-shirts in the corner and and goes to ask them.
LT: I love that by the way.
DC: Yeah,
Shawna Hausman: Yeah.
DC: This is what you said about Mickey and Mickey Mickey's that guy. I want to contrast something here for you, Shawna.
One, it took incredible courage for you to do.
LT: Yep.
DC: What you did. That's brave. And we say that about the brands, beats and Bites brand lover. We want them brave. We want them curious. We want them restless in their root to becoming CMOs. That was you at 22. Yeah. You were the Brand, Beats, and Bytes brand lover.
Incredibly brave. Here's the other thing though. Mickey the Prince, the Merchant [00:34:00] Merchant Prince, is that what he is? Or
Shawna Hausman: Prince Merchant Princes? Yeah.
DC: The Merchant Prince who is president, who is on the cover of magazines, who is lauded industrywide for his knowhow, ask you a 22-year-old intern whom he does not know, to come to his office and give him a report, which he listens to.
He sends you to the CMO and is impressed so much that he invites you on a trip, on a plane with people who are double your age and quadruple your experience level. That's Mickey.
Shawna Hausman: Yep.
DC: Michael on the other hand was, what the fuck are you doing here? And why should it by matter? We're doing fine.
LT: That's right.
DC: Here's the point.
Shawna Hausman: And I don't blame him. I don't, I honestly
DC: don't, I don't blame him either. Don't blame.
LT: I don't either.
DC: But there is a difference. And there's a quote that we love by someone also in the California area, Southern California, UCLA [00:35:00] basketball coach, famous, arguably the best basketball coach in history.
John Wooden, have you ever heard this name? John Wooden uc? No. UCLA basketball coach. Larry, can you tell Shawna one of our favorite quotes by Mr. John Wooden?
LT: So, uh, John Wooden said this, um, and, um, he was, he was famous for, for, uh, for quotes. And, uh, John Wooden said, it is what you learn after you know it all that counts.
Shawna Hausman: Ah, I like that.
DC: That Shawna is Mickey. Yeah. That is not Michael.
Shawna Hausman: Now, to now to just say one thing here.
DC: Okay. Okay.
Shawna Hausman: I don't want anyone to, I, I don't wanna paint Mickey as this, uh, angelic, uh, giving. Oh, I'm not.
LT: No, I'm not.
Shawna Hausman: Because on the flip side of listening to the [00:36:00] youngest person in the room, you can, you have to imagine being a senior executive.
LT: Yes.
DC: Oh yes.
Shawna Hausman: His attitude towards that was, uh, mistrustful and, uh,
DC: Very true.
Shawna Hausman: You know, it cuts both ways, right?
DC: I mean, it does. That's fair. Good shout. Good shout. What a story, Larry. I know I took a long time on that one, but just what a story.
LT: It, it, it's a great story and I, I think it's really interesting when, uh, we'll call all of our ourselves more seasoned.
That, um, your 22-year-old self to speak up is super cool, Shawna, and says a lot about who you are and how you've navigated yourself through your career because you're, you're not gonna be the one who's the wallflower, who's sitting in the back and, and not making something happen. And that's clear from all the, the great work that you've done.
D, take us to, uh, the, uh, the [00:37:00] opening questions, if you would.
DC: Here we go. Uh, Shawna, this is called next section Five Questions. Larry and I go back and forth with questions to you until we arrive at five. I'm in the opening position. Take us back to the first branding experience you had. First one where you just were enthralled with this brand or brand experience.
You could not get enough of it. You thought about it. It touched your heart a bit, like your first love. What was that brand or brand experience for you?
Shawna Hausman: Um, I think it was Old Navy actually. Wow. You know, even though I was in this Gap sphere, um, old Navy was really, it was a startup and it had a lot of heart.
It was very scrappy at the time. Um, you know, that was, it was very interesting [00:38:00] branding experience. You know, they were doing two different things that were kind of unusual and, and weird and cool. One was Magic The Dog was this mascot of sorts. Mm-hmm. And the other was the woman, Carrie Donovan. I don't know if that name means anything to you, but she was this, I think she was like someone from fashion originally, almost, like, maybe she was an editor of a fashion magazine. I don't know. She was famous wearing these really big black glasses and she did all the ads.
LT: Oh yeah.
Shawna Hausman: And she
DC: mm-hmm.
Shawna Hausman: She was very quirky and I know she probably had a catchphrase. I can't, I, we'd have to look it up. Um, but it was like, you know, it, it was very interesting.
You'd go into the stores, they were unlike anything else and you know, it really had a vibe, as my kids would say. Mm-hmm. No doubt. It had, it had, it had a vibe. Um, and it really did. I felt very immersed in [00:39:00] that brand at the time, and I was able to see a brand really kind of coming to be, you know, it was, they didn't have a website at the time.
They weren't getting the ad budget, you know, that a Banana Republic or a Gap would get, um. You know, it was funny, you'd be in the elevator, especially with the Banana Republic people, and they would just look, look at you like, you know, like you were chopped liver. They were like, oh, because they all would dress to the nines every day, and we would come in wearing like fleeces and uh, you know, Old Navy jeans.
Mm-hmm. Um, but there was really a moment of comradery there because we all really had that vision. Everyone in any, in any role there. It was really that startup moment and it felt, it felt like being in a startup. And I think because of that, everyone felt an ownership of the brand in some way. And, um, it really stuck with me for a long time.
You know, I, I don't consider myself really to be an Old Navy shopper [00:40:00] these days, but more and more, a lot of people I know are, are going back to the brand. I think it hasn't really ever gone away. It's kind of gone up and down and it's, you know, relevancy, but. Back then, it was really, it was very cool. It was a very cool brand.
LT: Any thoughts?
DC: None. None from me. I like that.
LT: Uh, it's very cool. Uh, before we get to the next question, I have some thoughts, and we've talked about this on the show a few years ago, uh, Shawna, um, and again, this has nothing to do with the folks like you in Old Navy and the people who were stewards of the Old Navy brand, the Gap brand and, and uh, banana Republic brand at the time.
I think that quite honestly, the Fisher family who owned the company and the, and, and, and I don't know, I know Mickey left in the early two thousands, but somebody along the line did marketing fell malfeasance. And what I mean by that is they didn't steward each of these brands to have their own distinct positioning, [00:41:00] right?
Yes. And so what happened is they overlapped, especially Old Navy and The Gap overlapped and Old Navy was. Was less expensive. The jeans in Old Navy might've been a little bit different than the jeans in The Gap, but they were, they were less expensive. The t-shirts are less expensive than the Old Navy, and they traded people down in my, in, in my opinion, from The Gap to Old Navy instead of carving out each of them having their own lanes.
Right. And so that was awful that they, that, that, uh, Old Navy encroached The Gap and took down the gap. If anything, you'd want to do the opposite because The Gap was a little bit more expensive. And so, um, I, old Navy's done a great job, but I think unfortunately they ate their own in doing that. Yeah. You know, and, and, and that's, that's one of those things that you can't go back in time.
But, um, I never understood that at the time. I'm like, Old Navy's great, but they need to carve it out a little different. Because even the Magic The Dog and Carrie, as you're describing, [00:42:00] just very similar to, to the Gap, right. You know. And anyway, um, that's just the thought that
Shawna Hausman: No, I I see what you're saying.
Yeah. I see what you're saying. Yeah. I mean, I think they could have, they could have taken Gap brand higher
LT: Yes.
Shawna Hausman: And maybe a little more fashion.
LT: Exactly.
Shawna Hausman: Or, or take Old Navy really fashion, you know, you're right. Right. It, it is, it did start to kind converge in the, in the mushy middle, as you say. Right. I mean, and that's, no one wants, wants to be in the mushy middle.
LT: Very exactly. You don't want to be in the mushy middle. We're gonna quote you on that. That's really a good one. All right, so next question, Shawna. Um, who is haters having the most influence on your career?
Shawna Hausman: Um. I would have to say, you know, at, at risk of sounding like an Oscar award acceptance speech, um, my mom, my mom really set me off on the business path.
She was, um, really a businesswoman back when that wasn't the norm, you know? Mm-hmm. Back when I was a kid, my dad [00:43:00] was, um, is a doctor and she ran his office and, you know, she was 100% the reason he was successful because she was managed the whole team and the staff and all the accounting and all the, you know, when they got computers for the first time, she's the one who had to learn it and do that whole thing.
And, you know, watching her, um, you know, and she works. What
LT: are your parents' names?
Shawna Hausman: Um, my, my parents are Jay and Kathy Kaplan.
LT: Are they still with us?
Shawna Hausman: Yes, they are.
LT: Oh, awesome. Shout out to Jay and Kathy.
Shawna Hausman: Um, you know, but our, our life was a little different than everyone I knew. You know, we didn't eat dinner at five, we ate dinner at eight, you know, and mm-hmm.
They came home from work at six ish, and my brother and I would come home after school and, you know, we'd be eating junk food and watching tv, but we would get the call, go marinate the pork chops and make the salad and set the table and this and that. And I mean, that's, you know, they say that, right? Gen X, that's how I, we, Gen Xers grew up.
Like that's, I [00:44:00] think how we all ended up, you know, being, being the way this generation is. Um, and that's really where that started. But I watched my mom really running the show and being a business person and, and also there were times when she would say, I feel bad that I'm not around more, you know? And I say, well, listen, we actually, we enjoy it.
We, we don't mind. My brother and I were very self-sufficient and. That's just, it seemed normal to us, and I think it really did set us off on, on a good path for, for being independent thinkers and, you know, having self-reliance and not worrying what everybody else was doing. We were doing our thing. And, um, you know, so, and over the years she's always supported me as I've made various career moves.
She's not someone who's like, oh no, you're not gonna have a job, you're not gonna have money, you're da da da. She's always like, yeah, that sounds [00:45:00] interesting, or, you know, when I'm looking for a job, don't worry. You know, something's gonna come. Don't take something you're not gonna like. So I really think that having her as this, um, example for me, set me off at least on the, the business path overall.
LT: Love that. Great stuff. Kathy, shout out. Uh, Dee, you wanna take us to next question?
DC: I do. You've had a wonderful career in marketing in retail, and even when you did your real estate intern, it was still in retail, it was real estate mm-hmm. For retail, and you've had quite a number of successes. All these growth rates that Larry talked about in your, uh, introduction,
LT: it's actually mind boggling the growth rates that Shawna has had.
DC: They really are. Yeah. And they're [00:46:00] consistent. Yes, they're consistent.
LT: Yes.
DC: That means that you've had a lot of what we call Ws, all Ws, but this next question has nothing to do with the Ws. This has to do with ls. Okay?
LT: Yes.
DC: Yeah. What is your biggest F up Shawna on you, not on someone else, not because of a market shifted or something like that.
You just made an F up a big one. And more important than the F up, what you learn from it.
Shawna Hausman: You know, there it happens. Right there have been more than one. Um, but one that really sticks with me that like, gives me that like ugh, feeling when I think back on it. Um, when I was at West Elm, they, you know, I was over on the e-commerce side and still at the time it was really all about stores and catalog, primarily in the company overall.
LT: That's William Sonoma. Just to let people know, uh, because that's
Shawna Hausman: That's right.
LT: That they, they start, they're very, you know, store catalog driven, that's where you're [00:47:00] going.
Shawna Hausman: That's right, that's right. And, you know, I was over on the e-commerce side and I was always looking to ahead. To what was gonna be the next technology that was gonna enable shopping and, and beyond just, Hey, here's a website, let's put some stuff on it.
LT: Right.
Shawna Hausman: Um, they started to run a program called, um, home Home Services, I think Home services where they would send, um, personnel staff, I don't know if they were in the stores or what, but they would come to your house and they would look at your decor and they would talk to you about, you know, this, this sofa might work in this space, or this rug could be nice or get a lamp right here.
And this is a couple options. Um,
LT: So interior designer consultants almost?
Shawna Hausman: Yeah. Design service. Design services is what they call them. Yep. Design services. Okay. Alright. Um, and you know, so, uh, I had that, that was a moment when apps were becoming a big thing, you know, iPad apps and [00:48:00] uh, iPhone apps and all that.
And I, you know, I wanted to have an app. Kind of like everybody wanted to have an app. And as I started thinking about it, I thought, you know, we could create something that would almost be like a pin board, you know, something you could use to create your mood board, your look. Mm-hmm. You know, and Pinterest was really hot at that moment in time.
LT: Right?
Shawna Hausman: It's like, this could be like a Pinterest where you're, you're pinning West Elm things together to create a look. And, and it would be really cool if this app could be on an iPad and these folks that are going out and doing these design services could have it and be sitting with someone and flipping through, you know, the pictures of the sofa, like, which ones do you like?
Okay, let's pin it to the mood board and here's some rugs that would go with it. And, and. Pinning them in these pin boards we were calling it. And um, and even I said, even in the stores, because [00:49:00] you're sitting in this in the store, right? And you're sitting on a sofa, but you're sitting on it in like beige, but you also could get it in black or tan or whatever.
So it could be cool, like you're sitting on it, it's comfortable. Here are all the options it comes in. So I start working with a, um, this company that wanted, that was starting up doing these apps, and they came in and they basically said, we will design this thing for you for free because it will be a big win to have a, you know, a West Elma app out there.
They could use that as their, their calling card, their marketing. Um, so they were doing this thing for free and we were doing it for a while now. I was working closely with the CMO of the West Elm division on this project. Um, so she was involved all every step of the way and. The thing was ready to launch and they said, we need, we need, and they'd always said, we're just going to charge you $40,000 to launch this app.[00:50:00]
And, you know, some, at some meeting, in some meeting that I was not in the CMO went in with the, with the senior, you know, with, with the CEO and the head of the West Elm division. And they said, what is this $40,000 for? And instead of really saying, this is this app we're about to launch and we really owe them this money, it was like, I don't know, it know, it's not necessary.
So the thing got cut and I had, not only was I really disappointed because I was, you know, I felt like it was going to be a great product. And really today everyone has this Right. Then it wasn't a thing back now where you go into any home goods store and they're gonna take the iPad out and they're gonna design your whole room.
Right. You know? Mm-hmm. Using ai. But, um. I then had to go back to this company that just put all of these hours into building this thing and tell them it wasn't gonna launch and that weren't gonna get the $40,000. [00:51:00] And I, there's nothing I could do about it. And you know, what I didn't do properly was I didn't get all of the buy-in I needed to get, like in retrospect, you can't really just hide behind.
You can't, you can't just expect one person to necessarily like totally champion you unless they're really explicit about it. And I should have gotten the head of the division's approval. I should have gotten, I was talking to a lot of people who were supporting the project, but none of them had any skin in the game.
They didn't. Mm-hmm. There was no reason, and I just did not get the buy-in I needed for this thing to go through. I just figured like, well, this is logical. And I, and I have that problem sometimes where I'm like, obviously they're gonna wanna do this. This makes sense. Not thinking about all the politics out there and budgets that you may not know about or just, you [00:52:00] know, or maybe they're getting pressure from the CEO of the whole company and they don't, so you never really totally know all the, all the factors.
It, it was a big F up and. And it became a thing. Like, I think that was part of why I left, because it was clear that I wasn't really gonna recover from that. It, it kind of like stained my reputation within the division. And, you know, even people I used to work with for a while would say, you know, you could never say app again at all in the, no one ever wanted to hear the word app ever again within the division.
After that happened. And I kind of like, I kind of took the fall for it and was mad at, really mad at myself and felt terrible for this company that
LT: Oh yeah.
Shawna Hausman: You know, we may have bankrupted them. I don't know. It was, it was horrible.
LT: Ooh, that, thanks for sharing that because that, that's a vulnerability branders.
We've all, we all have [00:53:00] multitude of f ups and for Shawna to tell us that is, uh, is is really great. And I think you also said what you learned from it. Getting the buy-in if you don't get full buy-in. And, you know, it's always been tricky. DC I'd love to hear your thoughts on this too. It's always been tricky when you have something for free and people hear that and then all of a sudden, well this is $40,000.
And again, it's the old expectations and, and, um, I think in situations like that, it's even more important to, to explain what's going on so people really understand, yeah, they're doing all the services for free, but to us to, for us to actually consummate it, it's 40 grand and oh, by the way, it would've, I'm making this up, it would've cost $800,000, right?
If they didn't give us the services for free. So anyway, that, that's just thoughts. Uh, uh, do you wanna share anything before we go to the next question?
DC: I'll say this really quickly. Thank you Larry. And I'll go to the next question. Great answer. One of my former bosses at the Coca-Cola company, [00:54:00] all lauded, CMO, named Sergio Zeman.
One of the things he used to say to us on the brand team is. You have to do marketing for the marketing. And what he meant was internally marketing what it is we wanted to ultimately get out to consumers and customers. This is a case of, of that Larry, next question.
LT: Yeah, exactly. Okay. So Shawna, when thinking about, um, uh, technology and marketing with your digital pedigree, man, it's really looking forward to hearing what you have to say here.
Can you really help enlighten us for where you think marketers should lean in or best leverage tech? Or you can, uh, talk to us about areas you think that they should be leery or simply avoid?
Shawna Hausman: Well, I mean the hot topic right now is obviously AI.. Mm-hmm. Um, I think, I think you have [00:55:00] to lean in, I mean. It's gonna be scary to a lot of people, but so was e-commerce, you know?
LT: Right.
Shawna Hausman: Every, every step of the way. You know, there's always an anxiety that something's gonna do something. You know, even when we started to first personalize messaging to customers, you know, sending personalized emails based on what they clicked on on the site seemed like really creepy.
Right. And showing them things via an algorithm based on where they're clicking on the site, showing them banners, or even showing them products that they would like, that would be different from the person sitting next to you. You know, people were like, oh, I, people aren't gonna like that. They're going to, you know, unsubscribe.
They're gonna think it's weird. We shouldn't do that. There was a lot of that at the time. Um. You know, every step of the way there is, when there is something new that people don't yet [00:56:00] understand, there's always a hesitancy, but you can't really stop, you can't really put the brakes on the progress. Right.
I mean, I think,
LT: yep.
Shawna Hausman: Back in the early days when people were launching the websites, the stores divisions were nervous that it was going to eat their lunch. They didn't really want web.
LT: Oh yeah.
Shawna Hausman: You know, and even at Williams Sonoma when I was there, which wasn't so, so long ago, they would still refer to the website as essentially just the destination you would go once you received your catalog.
You know, we would, we would show our results and the answer that would come back from the senior executives in the Williams Sonoma, like corporate executives was Yeah, that's great. It's because we had a really good catalog that month.
LT: And
Shawna Hausman: I would say
LT: like, the bias of people is incredible, isn't it? Like, yeah.
Yep.
Shawna Hausman: So you can't, you have to like, you have to really embrace it and I think. The part that I do think is, um, a little bit scary with AI is that it is going [00:57:00] to, you know, everyone was saying it's not gonna reduce jobs. It's not gonna, you know, reduce headcount. You still need somebody that understands, and that is true, but it is going to also reduce headcount.
And I think, um, as an industry, as a country, we're gonna have to figure out what that looks like. You know, and I hate to get doom and gloom, but like, you know, when you see what AI can do, you know, in, in a fraction of the time, you know, I put, I put together a PowerPoint the other day, or a, you know, on this, this, uh, app called Gamma.
And I literally had like a list of some general notes on something I wanted to present, and I dumped it in and it put together a presentation that you would've hired, you know, McKinsey to do that thing for a hundred grand back in the day.
DC: Wow.
Shawna Hausman: It just. Spit out a presentation like you've never seen, like I've never done Gorgeous.
And [00:58:00] it took, it was literally like in three seconds, right? It was populated and it added in language that actually got to the heart of what I was trying to say. Kind of like DC right? You can say something, but DC is able to say it again in a way that's even more elegant, more elevated, right?
LT: Yep.
Shawna Hausman: And that's what it does.
It was taking what I said and and implied, and it created a presentation that added in a language, you know, and you could, you can tell it like you put it in like professional corporate language or do you want it casual? Do you want whatever?
DC: Yep.
Shawna Hausman: And I was blown away. And you know, that would've been a couple entry level people working on decks, right?
Back in the day, you're sitting there working on decks and that's not gonna be a thing anymore. So. You can't really, you can't really, uh, avoid the new tech. You have to kind of embrace it, but you have to figure out next is really to figure out how it's going to be implemented, how people are going to [00:59:00] protect their data.
DC: Right.
Shawna Hausman: Um, because right now I think it's kind of the wild West, everyone's just sort of dumping stuff in. Even if they say you're not supposed to do that, everyone at every company's kind of doing it, but they need to have some parameters to, to protect that company's IP and their customer's data. But there's no slowing it down.
I mean, that's what I've learned over the years. You just gotta, you gotta ride the wave. 'cause it's, you can't go backwards. You can't put the genie back in the bottle. Right.
LT: No, we, we, we totally agree. Wholeheartedly agree. And by the way, like my wife's company Hub International Insurance, they have their own closed ai.
So they have so and so. That's what companies are doing. So they keep it, they're, they're keeping it within the house, which is very smart.
Shawna Hausman: That's smart.
LT: Yeah. We, we wholeheartedly agree. Lean in all the way, and if you're a young person, you gotta lean in. And so you're the steward of ai so people lean on you.
That's, that's our feeling. Everything you say is true, but we think lean in [01:00:00] DC You want to hit the last question?
DC: I do. Shawna, what are you most proud of?
Shawna Hausman: Say that again.
DC: What are you most proud of?
Shawna Hausman: Oh, um, that's a good question. I think, looking back, I was going to say something about growth and the company. I felt like I really was able, everything came together that would've been FSA store. I really, I was proud of what I did from a business point of view there. But I actually think when I look back on my career, I'm proud of the fact that I never was afraid to, to make a move.
If I thought there was going to be an opportunity that would help me grow, I was never afraid to take on a job I didn't know how to do. You know, I went, I went into a buying [01:01:00] position when I was at, um, you know, um, bed Bath and Beyond, and I had no experience in buying, but they needed a buyer. And I said, you know, I can go figure this out.
You know, I, I was never afraid to leave a job that when it was time to go without another job, you know, and, you know, just get out of a situation that wasn't working for anybody. I think that's, that's something I, I feel proud of that I never let fear keep me somewhere or prevent me from learning something new or trying something new or taking a risk to, you know, put it all out on the line and, and see what happens.
So that would be my advice for people, for younger people that are. In their careers. You know, don't, don't stay somewhere where you're miserable just for the money. I know people who do it and they say all the time, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna look, I'm gonna leave. And then they don't. And then all of a sudden you're 50 and you're in a job, you've been in [01:02:00] forever and you're just doing it for the money and like, you know, it can't, that can't, that can't guide you.
They can't hold you back. You've really gotta think about what's gonna help you grow and what you enjoy doing and what you're good at. You know, I think if they can, and when they all come together, that's, that's the miracle, right?
LT: Ooh, Shawna, that's so deep what you just said. And you should be incredibly proud of that.
And brand nerds. Heed that. Heed it. It's, it's awesome. Uh, D, anything to add before we go to the next section?
DC: Nothing.
LT: This is Shawna. You're dropping some deep stuff. Really. This is great stuff, Shawna. Thank you. All right, so we're gonna, we're gonna go to the next, uh. The next section, uh, Shawna. And that is what's popping.
What's popping, D?!
DC: What's popping?
LT: So Shawna, this is our chance to shout out, shout down, or simply air something happening in around marketing today that we think is good fodder for discussion. And Shawna, we have one we think is [01:03:00] really good fodder that we think you can speak really well on as well. So we all know the Birkenstock brand.
Shawna, right? Birkenstock?
Shawna Hausman: Yep.
LT: And so just read something recently at the end of, uh, 2025. We are sitting here in, uh, first quarter 2026, and the headline for this, uh, article is Winning Ugly Birkenstock. Keep, its Keeps its Grip on Full Price Demand. So I'm gonna read you a little bit from this article. Yeah, Americas may be cutting back on some apparel purchases, but there's plenty of room in their closets for Birkenstocks.
The German footwear brand reported a 15% jump in fiscal fourth quarter sales to 526 million euros, which is over 607, which is $617 million. Topping expectations and reinforcing the strength of a strategy built around discipline, supply, limited discount, and physical retail As a marketing engine, sales grew double digits across every [01:04:00] region, 11% up in the Americas, up 16% in Europe and the Middle East.
That's to together 16% in the middle, uh, Europe, in the Middle East, 33% in Asia Pacific. For the full year, Birkenstock sold more than 38 million pairs, a 12% increase. Net profits served 79% to 94 million euros, which is $110 million. A key signal of the brand's pricing power. About 90% of sales. Came from full price products, even as many of its comp, uh, of its competitors rely on a steady diet of discounts and promotions.
The CEO Oliver Wright shirt said, and I hope I pronounce his name rightly, uh, quote, we remain committed to maintaining relative scarcity. He said on our earnings call, the ultimate indicator for brand health back to school sales rolls 20% across the company's 10 largest retail partners suggesting the brand's appeal remains strong with younger [01:05:00] shoppers, even as trends, churn.
What do you all think about that? As I read that to you,
DC: I want to hear from the retail expert.
LT: Yeah.
Shawna Hausman: You know, at the end of the day, it always comes back to good product, right? You have to have a good product. And they, they do and they have for a long time. Um, they don't try and be what they're not, you know, the fact that they say ugly, right?
They, they've never tried. To take the brand and apply it to something fancy. I mean, they fancy for them is like, the buckle gets bigger. Yeah. And then the buckle gets smaller. Right. And there's like two straps and then one strap and they just, they just change it up, I think, to keep people coming back.
Mm-hmm. But they're never, they're never really gonna change what's core to their brand and their product. They've just been really laser focused now. I don't, I think that that trend has really kind of caught back on [01:06:00] since COVID. I'm curious to see their, their numbers throughout the years, but I think that since COVID where everyone stopped wearing real shoes.
Um, people said, I'm not going to go back. Right. I'm not going, I don't, I have a closet full of heels. I put them on for five minutes and I'm like, nah, I don't think so. You know, and I, I spend all, all summer in Birkenstocks, you know, and I've got some that are kind of cuter than others, and I wear them with dresses and I wear them too.
Company, you know, corporate events. Um, they've somehow, yeah, they've made it cool, I think by not trying to make it cool, you know? Oh, I don't know. It's a, it's an interesting case study. And now I had it forever and then my daughter last year was like, I wanna get a pair. She's like, everyone's getting them.
And the ones she wanted were like the original, original ones that I had when I was like, you know, 18 years old in purple. [01:07:00]
LT: Right.
Shawna Hausman: True story. Um. They're the oldest style, and she and her friends all wanted them. So then now she's wearing 'em. And it's not because I'm wearing, I'm not cool. So it's not like she's following my footsteps, you know, just kind of
LT: That's a hinderance. On.
That's a ance
if that was the case.
Shawna Hausman: But Say that again?
LT: I said that would be a hindrance that you were wearing them, that that's certainly helping.
Shawna Hausman: Absolutely, yes. Absolutely. Yeah. Um, I, I like that they don't, they don't try the, they've stayed true. They don't do a ton of marketing.
LT: Yep. Mm-hmm.
Shawna Hausman: Right. I mean, I, I don't even know.
I wouldn't be able to visualize a campaign really. And I think I like that about it too. It feels a little exclusive, but when you go into the store, you just wanna buy them. They just do a great job. I don't know. It's a weird, it's a really weird brand, right? I mean, they just, but they're like. I don't know.
I have to give it to them. But I do think COVID had a big [01:08:00] impact on how people were, were wearing shoes.
LT: That's a, that's a, that's an interesting take and I think important context. De I'd love to, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.
DC: I hadn't considered this point that you made Shawna, about COVID.
That's really interesting that the context has changed and because we now as a society are, uh, are given more freedom to dress casually overall, that the, the saying, all boats rise in a high tide. They are rising because you, you, you're not wearing pumps anymore. Right. And I'm, and I'm not, and I'm not wearing wing tips or hard bottom shoes.
That's a very interesting thing. Yeah. What I'm coming back to is. In retail, Neiman Marcus, not now, but back in the day when Neiman Marcus [01:09:00] was a thing, they got mm-hmm. Financial issues now have had it for, uh, had these issues for quite a long time, but back in the day it's COVID
LT: by the way.
DC: Yeah. Oh yeah.
COVID. Yeah. When Neiman, when Neiman's Marcus was, you know, they were at the peak of their powers. Uh, I would go there once a year to do shopping during the sales. Right. But they don't call themselves, they called it last call.
Shawna Hausman: Right.
DC: And brand, if you are at a bar and the last round of drinks, the bartenders announce its last call.
LT: They ring the bell.
DC: They ring the bell. Yeah. It, it's, it's a, it's a giddy feeling. You're like, oh, oh, this is the last opportunity I'm going to get to have that, that final old fashioned. Mitch Rye, if you'd like to know. Brand Nerd Mitch Rye, old fashioned two cherries. And the fact, [01:10:00] and the fact that they figure it out.
Neiman Marcus, I'm talking about here a way to position their sales as not a sale, but this is the last call on this wonderful item. Scarcity.
Shawna Hausman: Yeah.
DC: And that's my connection to Birkenstocks.
Shawna Hausman: Yeah.
DC: Scarcity. I don't think they want to be the Nike, if you will, of, uh, of, of, of, of sandals. They don't wanna be that.
Mm-hmm. They wanna be, I don't know, the, the, uh, Grateful Dead.
LT: Yep.
DC: Of, of, um, of shoes. They wanna be, that they don't wanna be everywhere. And I respect that about 'em. I really do. Yeah.
Shawna Hausman: They've got the heritage too. You know, I, I think everyone, younger consumers are really interested in the heritage, right? It's,
LT: yes.
Shawna Hausman: I think that's appealing.
LT: To be [01:11:00] clear, um, I don't own a pair of Birkenstocks. My wife does and loves them.
Shawna Hausman: Yeah.
LT: Uh, but I have such, uh, reverence for them. And it goes to what you both are saying. Uh, they are unapologetic. They lead in, in what their brand is and what it is not. Yeah. Those are key points. What It isn't what it is not.
Mm-hmm. And they're never gonna chase trends. They're never gonna do that. They, they're not gonna cut prices to, to gain folks. You know, you're either in and if you're in, by the way, DII love your connection to the Grateful Dead because I think, I think there's a lot of deadheads who are way at the Birkenstocks.
DC: There's absolutely, yeah.
LT: There's no question. That those brands are very much aligned, right? Yeah. And I, so I love the fact that they're unapologetic in who they are and know who they are. And they ain't wavering. No. And that's why they're not [01:12:00] gonna cut prices, and that's not why they're not gonna chase the, the, the most trendy thing.
And part of knowing who they are is, uh, and I think this is where you were going, Shawna, is they're so comfortable. That's what people say about them. They're so comfortable. That's the product side that then leans in. And Shawna, we will say, we'll take great brand with good product over the opposite. So in my opinion, they have both, they have a great product and a great brand, and they're unapologetic in both, and both product and brand are completely aligned, right?
Yeah. And that rarely happens. With, with a consumer brand over time. And so I, that's why we thought this was great. What's popping is, especially for you, Shawna, with your, uh, with, with your retail background, we had no idea brand nerd, by the way that Shawna and her daughter were even consumers are.
Shawna Hausman: Oh, I mean, I've got, that's all I wear.
LT: I know. You know, and, and, but that's the point of a strong brand. So, great conversation, [01:13:00] great conversation. All right. I think that was awesome, Shada. This is, this is such an amazing, you've been amazing. We're now in, in the last segment. That's what happens when, uh, when we have great conversations with awesome guests like yourself.
So we're gonna share our learnings, uh, Shawna. Um, and uh, then, uh, if, if we have a chance, maybe you can share what you've, uh, learned from this great conversation. So I'm gonna start out, alright, so I have, uh, five with a bonus we like to do here. So brand nerds. The Mickey Drexlers of the world, again, whatever you wanna say, positive or negative about Mickey.
He was certainly in incredibly successful, uh, in what he did. They're successful because they are listeners. Mm-hmm. And Shawna's, uh, story not only about herself, but when he goes to store visits and he's going for the most, most, uh, uh, junior person. That's because he wants to get the real truth and Brand Nerd.
Sometimes it's hard to heal, hear the [01:14:00] real, real truth, but if you really wanna understand what's going on with your business, you've gotta be listeners and not afraid to hear what may be not be good news for you. So that's number one. Number two, Shawna said this almost as an, as an aside, but brand nerds when you're thinking about positioning your brand.
You just don't wanna be, as she said in the mushy middle, you've got to figure out how can you be a, a brand from a positioning standpoint that's appealing to people in a most emotional way, and wherever that is, uh, as it relates to price. You don't wanna be in the middle as it relates to price. That's a bad place to be.
Number three, like Shawna's mom, Kathy, shout out to her. Be supportive of those around you. It's always best to be supportive, and that goes both with work and family. And you might see some things that bother you, but better to be supportive than to give that constructive criticism. So that's number three.
Number four, in any significant [01:15:00] project, like, uh, what happened with Shawna's big, uh, biggest F up, you gotta get full buy-in from the key overlords, and you've gotta do it from the start to the finish. Uh, number five, this one is just so huge, like Shawna said about being what she was most proud of. Brand Nerds, when you're navigating your life, don't be scared. You can't be scared. Step up, speak up, and move forward. Those are the things you want to do, and you want to do that from the place of strength and the place of hope, not from fear. And then the last one, Brand Nerds, like Birkenstock. Don't try and be what you, you are not as a brand. Be who you are and lean in all the way to that.
Those are my learnings and, and Shawna, these are great learnings from you. Thank you.
DC: Those are outstanding, Larry. Shawna Hausman, thank you for blessing the Brand [01:16:00] Nerds and blessing us at Brands, Beats, and Bytes. With your presence here today. You will know if you've listened to any of our podcasts. This is the part of the program where I make a valiant attempt.
To describe what I am seeing has been painted on this canvas that you have been painting upon for us. And sometimes what happens, Shawna, is at the beginning of the podcast, there's like a speck, a paint, and then over the course of the questions and the answers more paint brushing happens. And then at some point, I'm looking at this metaphor metaphorical canvas, and I'm going, ah, that's what Shawna is giving us, that if she doesn't give it to us, we're not gonna get it in this way from the other [01:17:00] 8 billion people on this planet.
I'm gonna attempt to describe that and what I've seen from you today, what I've learned from you today. I. When we were in the Get comfy section, you told arguably one of the greatest answers to a get comfy question we've ever had about your internship experience at the Gap Gap Corporation. One of the moments was Mickey Drexler, who you just mentioned, Larry bounding into a conference room president.
Everybody knows this dude is a legend asking you and the other interns talk to me, talk to me. What do you, what do you think? What do you think? And, um, the room goes silent amongst my people, Shawna, my, my black people here in America. We have a saying, when things get really quiet, we say, you could hear a rat piss on cotton.
Okay, this is what we say. That's, that's very, very quiet in this [01:18:00] quiet. You break it with raising your hand and then speaking your thought. There's a paradox there. There's this quietness in the room and you kind of sheepishly raising your hand, yet the boldness to say something.
LT: Yep.
DC: Then when we get to the five questions, and you talked about your first branding experience, you said Old Navy, and specifically you said you'd liked Old Navy because your word, not mine, scrappy.
Then you mentioned the person who was the brand ambassador. We didn't call them that back then, but we'd call 'em that now. Carrie Donovan, iconic for her black large frame glasses, and this is a woman known in Fashion Vogue, Harper's Bazaar, New York Time Magazine. So here again we have this scrappy [01:19:00] little Old Navy with this fashion icon carry together once again.
There's this paradox and then the dog magic. When we ask you the question about who's being the mo, who's been the most influential in your career? You talked about your mother, Kathy, and what you mentioned was she was a mom on the one hand, yet she ran your father's medical practice. There's this paradox again, mom and and back then different generation.
Mom, back then. Back then, uh uh uh, let lemme tell you, this Brand Nerds back then, the mom was not expected to be running a practice.
LT: Right?
DC: That was not common, LT.
LT: Wasn't asked to either. D, let's be honest.
DC: Yeah. Great. Not asked to. So we got this, this paradox of this [01:20:00] kind of the background role of mom in terms of business yet, and you said she was a business woman, yet business woman.
And then we got down to this question on the most five, what are you most proud of? And this is where you went into, yeah. Don't be afraid. Yeah. I'm not afraid. I'm proud that I'm, I'm not afraid, I haven't been afraid to make a move when I need to make a move in my career. I haven't been afraid to go from a job to another job before I have the other job.
You even advise the Brand Nerds don't stay in a job because you're afraid or because you just doing it for the money. It's not worth it. You talked about this, so here again, you've got this, this paradox of at the, and on the one hand these are pretty big moves that one could make that are filled with risks.
Yet [01:21:00] Shawna is re is willing to make those moves and is have made them. There's this paradox again and when you. Finished off your answer to the question of proud of you said, and when it all comes together. Once you get through all of these moves and overcome your fear, when it all comes together, that's the magic.
And I'm like, did, didn't she just say magic a few minutes earlier? The magic that you talked about there is like the magic in the dog from Old Navy. Mm-hmm. Like these things connect.
Shawna Hausman: It all comes back around,
DC: it all comes back around. And then Brand Nerds. I'm gonna say something here that might not make Shawna comfortable, but I'm gonna say it anyway.
Before we recorded one of the first things that Shawna said, Brand Nerds. He said, you, I'm really excited about this. I'm also a little nervous. And we talked about it like, Shawna, you don't, [01:22:00] there's no need to be nervous. It's all good. You're gonna do great. So Larry and Brand Nerds, Here she was starting, even before we hit the record button, saying, you know, I'm excited.
I'm a, I'm a little nervous. Yet, here we are, you know, 90 minutes in and she's killed, murdered this podcast.
LT: Mm-hmm.
DC: Paradox. Paradox. You have this paradox throughout your career and maybe even your life, which has me conclude that I think what you, Shawna Hausman are giving us in the world, both through when you say it and more when you do it, is you are the quietly courageous leader, quietly courageous leader.
LT: How does that feel, Shawna? [01:23:00]
Shawna Hausman: Well, I'm honored. I'm honored. I really, um, no, it means a lot coming from you guys. It really does.
LT: You've done it, not us. Um, all you shawano, uh, before we sign up, anything that, uh, you wanna share with the brand nerds about this great conversation we've had?
Shawna Hausman: I mean, I, it's been wonderful.
I feel like we could talk for another two hours. I really do. Do you could. Um, yeah. It's really, it's really fun. I mean, I think at this point in my career, um, you know, it's, you get to this age. I think you've probably had a lot of conversations about this where, you know, a lot of women are evaluating, do I keep grinding?
Right? Yeah. We're all grinding for years.
DC: Yeah.
Shawna Hausman: Or try something different. And I, a lot of people I know are, are kind of dropping out like I did and going into consulting because. You can [01:24:00] really have more control over who you're working with and what you're working on and
DC: Yeah.
Shawna Hausman: You know, I felt like at this point I could take everything I had learned over all these years and apply it in a way that it's hard when you're at a large corporation and here's your like, slice of the pie, you know, and you're just doing this.
Whereas when you're coming in as a consultant, you can really touch a lot of different aspects. And also you can be, you know, I can be much more honest because I'm not internal and I'm not part of the political structure. Right. I can, I can go in and say, this person isn't working out, or, you know, you may wanna restructure this, or, that's crap.
Don't stop doing it, you know, or whatever. Mm-hmm. You know, and I think it fits my personality, as you guys could tell.
DC: Mm-hmm.
Shawna Hausman: Um, I don't love being in, in the political system of these larger corporations. Mm-hmm. I, I, that was not really what had worked for me, um, in [01:25:00] terms of my career, what I ended up looking back and loving.
Um, so, you know, so this next move is really, um, something I'm excited about and it's something a lot of people are, are doing, and I think it's gonna be interesting to see kind of like all these very senior people that I know are moving over into
LT: Oh yeah.
Shawna Hausman: Moving out and moving over into consulting. And I'm kind of like, who's, who's gonna be doing these CMO jobs now?
LT: Yep.
Shawna Hausman: Who? It's, it's inter it's really interesting. We're at a weird moment, right. Now's curious to see how it all goes.
DC: Hey, hey Larry. Uh, we, did you have any thoughts to what Shawna?
LT: Nope.
DC: Just said I, I do. Shawna, this is the first time what I'm about to ask you to do that We have done this in the history of our podcast and we are nearing, I think 200.
In our catalog. Wow. And I never once, neither has Larry asked our guests to do what I'm about to [01:26:00] ask you to do now. And it's this.
LT: No pressure.
DC: No pressure, no pressure, Shawna. If you could give the Brand Nerds listening to this, let's just say there's some CEO out there in retail, maybe in some other area in digital marketing, whatever, and they're, they have gotten to this point in the podcast.
They're checking this out, they're listening to you, they're intrigued, and you had the opportunity to say to them, this is why you would want to bring me in as a consultant to help you. What would you say to them?
Shawna Hausman: I think, um, I'm able to really assess a situation very rapidly. And through observation, but also just through talking to people mm-hmm. On the ground in these [01:27:00] companies, a lot of times things are stuck. And I think when you're at that executive level, it's hard for people to figure out why. Mm-hmm. And they may think that the problem is one thing, but it's really not.
It's a whole different set of things or a different thing. Um, where I've been successful in consulting, but also, you know, in, in companies, even when I first go in, I'm able to connect with the people there and really listen and try and understand the business and understand what their point of view is and, and then get into their, you know, their operations, their operating model and start to piece together what's working, what isn't.
But maybe a little bit like Mickey talking to the younger people on the team who are at times really frustrated with how things are going. They're more open because they, they want to convey like, this could be really great, but this is holding us back. Or, you know, this person is telling us this, but we think we should be [01:28:00] doing that.
We don't know what to do. Um, I think that's really my superpower is coming in and using all of the background. I have to be able to come in and listen and observe and get to the heart of it pretty quickly. Um, you know, so it's, it's a little bit of a weird one because it's not just like, Hey, I'm gonna come in and run your like performance marketing campaign, you know?
DC: Right.
Shawna Hausman: It's a little bit more, um, of a specialized thing. It's for companies that are in a moment of transition that know something needs to change, but they may just not know why or how or what's going on, you know, and I think that's where I can come in and act as like an executive partner, um, to. Find out to be the investigator and to be able to come back and say, you know, and I've had that in the past.
When I went to FSA store, I was originally a consultant, and I went in and spoke to everyone and I was told [01:29:00] there's a marketing problem. And I went in and I talked to everyone for two weeks, and I came back and I said, you got, you know, you got 99 problems and marketing ain't one. You know, it's like mm-hmm.
You need a new website, you need this, you need that, and it's gonna cost you $2 million. Do you wanna do it? You know, and, and they, you know, it's not often it's PE or some new owners that are trying to figure it out, out. So, you know, that's, I think that's where I add a lot of value is in change management, but not in the scary sense of the term.
You know? Right. Not like, let me just come in here and fire a whole bunch of people. It's more like, let's really understand, let's get in and understand what's happening. So that. We can fix it for everyone. You know.
LT: That's a great answer. You've been there and done that, and you're, you're able to easily because of that, uh, you have the intuitive sense and [01:30:00] operational know-how, uh, and then all of your marketing toolkit to then figure out what needs to happen next.
That's amazing. Hey,
DC: Hey, Larry. I'm sorry, I, I know we are needing to close this out. I'd like to just say one thing
LT: Sure.
DC: To Shawna, after listening, uh, Larry knows this about me. Um, my mind works in threes. There is a reason behind threes is why we say ABCs and, and why numbers around the world. Start in th in threes or series of threes.
There is a science behind this, but in this case, I'll just stick with three. I've got three words for you to consider in what you do, Shawna, that would be unique to you. Given you are this, I believe this uh, quietly courageous leader. And it's these three C's, clarity, conviction, and courage. You come in because of your experience, you can clarify [01:31:00] help management and team, see what's going on.
You can analyze it quickly. Conviction, you can bring it forward with conviction because you're not impaired by the politics inside.
Shawna Hausman: Mm-hmm.
DC: And courage is you will say the things that need to be said that others may be afraid to say.
LT: That's it.
Shawna Hausman: I think I need to rename the agency. Triple C. Triple C, triple C growth.
LT: I was thinking that,
DC: oh yeah, I forgot about triple A. Okay. Uh. Larry I, I like that. I can do that. Cool.
LT: That's a great way to close. Shawna, thank you so much. You've been awesome brand nerds. Thanks for listening to Brands, beats and Bites, the executive producers of brands. Beats and Bytes are Jeff Shirley, Darrell d DC Co.
Larry Taman, Jade Tate, and Tom Dero.
DC: Ha f.
LT: And if you do like this podcast, please subscribe and share and for those on Apple podcasts if you're so inclined, we love those excellent reviews. [01:32:00] We hope you enjoyed this podcast and we look forward to next time where we will have more insightful and enlightening talk about marketing.