Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Two deranged lawyers talking about our deranged obsessions.
Raven Sinner (00:01)
Thanks for watching!
Raven (00:26)
Welcome back, derangers. This is your favorite podcast and ours, Deranged Dure. I'm Raven. I'm joined by my co-host. And yeah, and we're Deranged Dure. We are two deranged lawyers talking about our deranged obsession. So first of all, happy International Women's Day,
Pisha (00:33)
That's right.
Peace-ah!
Thank you and happy International Women's Day to you as well, Raven. It's a glorious day, even though it's the night before.
Raven (00:55)
Yes.
Yes, but it will be coming out on International Women's Day. So
of course, you know, we have to be talking about the thing that, has revolutionized women in so many ways. Like our lives are just so much better because of the thing we're going to talk about today.
Pisha (01:10)
Right.
Raven (01:15)
So having been single for seven years, I felt like an expert this here topic that we're going to be covering, which I keep alluding to and then not saying. We're going to talk about dating apps
So in honor of International Women's Day, in honor of our topic,
I am going to refer back to our Valentine's Day episode, where we opened with saying, fuck all men.
Pisha (01:44)
all of them. Again, not the ones who listen to the
Raven (01:46)
Yeah.
right. But no, I actually went back after that episode and I was like, you know, I kind of feel bad. And then I keep reading these things that I'm like, I don't feel that. I just want to say no. Thank you guys. Just, you know, just do better. That's all I got to say.
Pisha (02:00)
DO I THOUGH?! It does kinda seem like the perpetrators of all of this are men.
Okay, but anyways, we're talking about online dating apps. And you've got some good anecdotes for us.
Raven (02:12)
Yes. Yeah.
Yes, yeah, we're going to talk about it.
I do, as well as some good stats that you will actually you're the one with the stats.
Pisha (02:25)
I went a little crazy with the graphs and charts on this one.
Raven (02:28)
Yeah, you know what, it's really interesting. I think that overall, like social media and the internet is a really interesting sociological topic. And dating apps really kind of like highlights the worst of the worst. I don't know that I have anything positive to say about them. I personally have not used dating apps and God, I don't even know how long, but I will never again, especially after doing this research.
Pisha (02:53)
Oh yeah, definitely not. I think I used Tinder once for less than 24 hours because I matched with someone that I went to middle school with and that was just weird in the last straw after so many bad things. So I can't wait to talk about what I've learned about the online dating world because I don't have as much exposure.
Raven (02:53)
Um, yeah.
Oh yeah. I not-
Yes!
Yeah, I actually ran into a client once and that was like kind of the last straw for me. So, oh no, I can't do this anymore.
Pisha (03:21)
You were like, no.
That's fair.
Raven (03:28)
where did they come from and what is their history? So, can you guess like how early, how far back I'm going to go, Peshia?
Pisha (03:37)
from 1996 when Al Gore invented the internet.
Raven (03:44)
That's right, you're exactly right.
Pisha (03:46)
No way!
Raven (03:50)
Well, actually, I am, uh, you know, well, actually, uh, wait, hang on. Well, actually.
Pisha (03:59)
Are you mansplaining to me right now? This is great.
Raven (04:03)
I did, I totally did.
We're gonna get into it.
Pisha (04:04)
WHAAAAAT?
Raven (04:05)
So, well, I'm going back to 1959. So I know. Yeah, yeah, 1959. So.
Pisha (04:15)
Okay, you're gonna have to explain further.
Raven (04:18)
Yeah, so the Happy Families Planning Service it was started by Jim Harvey and Phil, I'm gonna butcher that name, Fialar. They started this class project in Stanford where they were using a questionnaire and IBM was new at the time. So they used this questionnaire to match like with the men and the women. Obviously this is all.
heterosexual and like, and I have to like kind of put the caveat on here that a, like both of us are heterosexual and like we are going to try and cover some of the like LGBTQ topics, but a lot of this is going to be based on that cause it's our experience. But what we do want to know more and we said in the last episode, you know, if you have information that you want to share with us that we should be talking about, we want to hear it. But in any case.
Pisha (04:50)
Right.
issues, right?
Raven (05:08)
The IBM 650 used that questionnaire to match 49 men and 49 women. And so that was the start of matchmaking using some kind of data thing.
And guess what year?
Craigslist Personal Ads started.
Pisha (05:22)
I'm gonna stick with my Al Gore answer in 96.
Raven (05:26)
But it's 1959. It was, you're much closer, it was 1997. So yeah. Yeah. And then in 1994, kiss.com launched, which is the first official dating website. J-Date actually started in 1997. So the Jews always ahead of the curve, truly.
Pisha (05:27)
What? Oh, wrong again!
Oh, okay, cool.
Oh, Jews, I was like, lawyers?
Raven (05:55)
It's like JD now, JD. I mean...
Pisha (05:57)
Yeah, JD date. And I'm like, oh God, I would hate to be matched. Oh wait, I am married to a lawyer. Oh boy. Don't tell anyone, you'll never listen.
Raven (06:02)
Oh god, yeah. Uh oh. I won't tell. He'll never hear this.
Oh, God. So then in 1999 is the first gay website that came out, which is Gaydar. And then eHarmony came out in 2001, Christian Mingle in 2002, Christians always behind the curve. And then not coincidentally, Ashley Madison came out in 2002, the year after Christian Mingle. And then in 2012, Tinder and Hinge.
finally launched and those are probably the ones we're going to talk about the most today. So that's our history of dating apps. So what do dating apps look like today, Pisha?
Pisha (06:35)
Yep, I think so.
Well, I got a nerd out for a second. I found this super awesome Pew Research Center report with all kinds of statistics and graphs and charts. And it was like reading a foreign language for a little while, but I found some really cool stuff. And in regards to the demographics, who are using dating sites or dating apps, both generally together online dating.
That's about three out of 10 American adults who are using either a site or an app to find love. And that's about 57 million people, I think, right now. This was a report from February 2nd, 2023. So it was last year. But the dating sites are more popular amongst young people. I
53% of people under 30 say that they have used a dating app or a dating site at some point. So in addition, men tend to outnumber women two to one on some apps. Most of those are like hinge. But the only apps where women outnumber the men are Christian mingle, Coffee Meets Bagel and eHarmony. I think all three of those are known for being like.
Raven (07:36)
Wow.
Pisha (07:58)
less sexualized and more long-term relationship seeking. Does that sound right?
Raven (08:06)
I think that's right. Yeah, it's so stereotypical, but I mean, it makes sense that those are the ones that would be dominated by women are the ones that are seeking actual, more long-term, I guess, commitments.
Pisha (08:19)
Right. And so the other group that tends to use dating sites more often, we'll talk about this in a second, is the LGB group, the lesbian, gay, bisexual group. And I bet you're probably wondering why I left out the TQ plus. And I suspect it's because either the data hasn't been gathered. There's so little data on it, or it hasn't been studied and developed, which I also suspect. And there's a lot of transphobic stuff going on.
but we'll talk more about that later. So just keep that in mind when I'm talking about the LGBT community.
it's popular amongst the LGB community as well with about 51% of the community saying they've used these apps. It's interesting to take note that a Belgian study suggested that men with a college degree have more success with online dating while education has no significant influence on the success for women.
So of course, like these guys are out there looking for some, for some, you know, yeah. And we're, and women are looking for more like deeper qualities. Yeah, substance, that's the word.
Raven (09:27)
I think it just means, you know, substance. Yeah. Oh, and I think that, you know, that goes to this is again, this is anecdotal. But I think that for at least the men that I've run into, intelligence is something that can be somewhat intimidating to men in women who don't like to view women as human beings.
So as some people might say, I don't think the straight men actually like women. So yeah.
Pisha (09:52)
Right.
Yeah, no, it's really weird. It's like they're sexually attracted to us, but they're so mad about it. Me too. So, but on that note, men tend to use dating apps more than women. So they're outnumbering them all the way around. And like I said, mostly in the sexualized, like casual relationship apps, like Tinder.
Raven (10:04)
Hell yeah. Well I'm mad too. Who am I messing with?
Pisha (10:26)
which is the most popular dating app currently, with about 46% of people who have used apps saying they've tried Tinder. Match and Bumble come in very close second and third. So Tinder again is more popular amongst the under 30 age group. We were laughing about this earlier, about like 65 year olds.
about 65 year olds being so horrified by the internet.
Raven (10:59)
Oh no! Hahaha Yes!
Pisha (11:00)
Yeah, so anyways, I just need to do that. But no, so these apps are being used by younger people, not older people. Users 50 and older are more likely to use Match if they're gonna use dating apps. So out of the partnered adults out there, about one in 10 of them met their partner through online dating. One in five under the age of 30 have met their partner through online dating. And one in four,
in the LGB community have met their partner through online dating. Right. So there's some pretty good success rate you can see for the under 30 group and the LGB group as well. So there is some prevalence of use and some trends there, but, uh, I, what I really want to know about is the psychopathy of dating apps. Raven.
Raven (11:32)
Interesting.
Yeah.
Oh, you do, do you? Well, let me tell you, they are absolutely deranged. When I said, you know, this is a deranged topic, I was not joking. So, yeah, so I mean, some of the problems come from the commodification and the like, uberization, I think that's the word that is used now, of sex and dating. So people, you know, particularly men, I know
Pisha (11:55)
I do.
Raven (12:19)
I know I'm harping on men particularly harsh today, but there's a reason for that. And I hope that we can talk about why I think it's also deranged for men.
I think that's part of the problem is that men aren't able to create that level of intimacy that they're actually looking for and instead choose to look for sex, which is the quicker gratification.
They tend to make it so that people treat sex as being at the tip of their fingertips. So they're not being seen as a human being beyond their profile. So similar to like what you would see in like social media,
makes it so that men
behave worse or tend to behave worse behind the guise of a profile, an online profile. So for whatever reason, and we can talk about the psychology of this or whatever, and maybe we should at some point, but They tend to make themselves more confident and they create this more confident persona that's not real in
And so that leads to some of the sexualized messaging and just kind of dehumanizing type of messaging that women tend to see. So that's A, the first part of the psychopathy and the
Pisha (13:31)
Right. Like you said, you're almost emboldened by the anonymity of that profile picture or that keyboard warriorism. You know what I mean? Like it's just you've got like more power behind the profile than you do in reality.
Raven (13:48)
Exactly. Like, I think, you know, as an example, so, you know, if you're on Tinder, everyone is on Tinder, like you were talking about the statistics.
you have to talk to many more people that you might not be able to talk to with in real life. You know, whether that is you still have to match with them. So there's, you know, not a great chance of that if you're a zero and they're a 10.
But you can put your profile to be fucking kin if you want to. So that may cause a match. And at that point, you're able to talk to someone that you might not otherwise talk to, which could be good and could be bad. And the reason that it's not good is because then the people who might not otherwise talk to you can say whatever the hell they want. And let me tell you, it's not good.
So and there's like there's a certain level of a dopamine fix that you get. dating apps are extremely addictive. And especially for people who are lonely, which is like which makes it even sadder. So like you're looking for connection and you do that through.
swiping through on dating apps. And it just becomes more and more addictive. And the sad thing about that is the studies show that the more you swipe, the sadder you become. So, I know it's very sad. It is, yeah. it's really, it's changed the dating scene really. I mean, I think that older people might tend to say oh yeah, we all used to be monogamous and all this stuff.
Pisha (15:04)
What? So sad.
Raven (15:18)
Yeah, okay Sally. Yeah, tell me about your husband's secretary.
Pisha (15:21)
Okay, Susan.
Yeah, tell me about your monogamous relationship to your philandering husband who goes on alcohol binges.
Raven (15:32)
Exactly. Yeah. No, it's made it more out in the open. And I do think that it has changed the way that we view dating. part of the problem is that, when you are on a dating app, the assumption is that you are talking to multiple people at a time. And that can become overwhelming really quickly,
it
removes the intimacy that comes from just getting to know one person at a time. And it also becomes a game. Part of the problem with dating apps is the gamification of it, which you'll hear about in
and what the problem with that is. And so I think the problem with that comes down to the fact that if you're viewing dating as a game.
then you're less likely to be able to create real connection, which is what the dating apps are for, or supposedly
one of the other things that you'll hear another cute dating app trope is that it's equalized the playing field and made it so that women have the upper hand in dating. And we're about to tell you why that is not the case at all.
But no, not at all. But the idea is that women are more selective than men. And so men will just swipe right on every swipe, which is true, it's ultimately true. But here's the thing, when you are a woman dating and your chances of being assaulted or violated
Pisha (16:39)
Not even close.
Raven (17:04)
are, I don't know, 60%. Yes. Then your chances of agreeing to more people is much lower. You have to be more selective out of necessity.
Pisha (17:05)
infinitely more.
It's, I mean, it's survival, like it's a survival thing. If you open your boundaries to more potential predators, you're more likely to get harmed. So you have to, as a woman, be more selective.
Raven (17:24)
Exactly.
Right, right, exactly. going into some of the problems with, lookism, obviously, like, the only thing you're seeing on a dating app is someone's look. And obviously, like physical traction plays into dating, I guess. But the problem is that it allows for some of the worst of the worst of humanity to come out where you might
meet someone face to face and be able to talk to them like a human being and not say racist things, for example. But if you talk to people who are people of color and they're on dating apps
you'll hear often, I mean, people say the worst shit. They're openly racist in their profiles. They, will say these little racist microaggressions, calling people exotic, that kind of thing.
And people of color have a much lower matching rate, I think, than white people, I guess. So just all around, it's just a shitty, microverse of the world that we live in. Just kind of highlighting, the worst of the worst.
Pisha (18:23)
I think that's true, yeah.
Raven (18:36)
you know, along with that.
Pisha (18:36)
Well, and we had talked about like with transphobia and the LGB community and how their trans community is getting left out of that group. But I've got to imagine that that's got to be dangerous to be trans in using these dating apps. If you identify yourself openly as trans, you'd be the target of harassment and threats and...
whatever, everything, I'm sure, all the most horrible shit like you're talking about. And, or do they keep it secret and wait to find out if they're gonna be a victim of violence at the hands of a man who finds out that maybe they're pre-op?
Raven (19:08)
Exactly.
it's just an unfair Catch-22, like completely and terrifying and ultimately fatal. I mean, people are killed constantly as a result of dating apps, or they're assaulted. We'll get into some of the worst parts of it here in a second.
which is awful. So, yeah, so, we've been talking about some anecdotes. I thought it would be fun to tell you some of mine. Like clearly I'm not gonna go into some of the darker edges of my past experience.
Pisha (19:50)
Yeah, please
Raven (19:51)
So we're just going to talk about some of the stupider ones, we'll call it that.
So I met a wind technician from Cheyenne, Wyoming, and for whatever reason, went out with him for a couple of times before she hit the fan. And the way that she hit the fan was that he told me that women had never built anything in society.
Yeah, yeah, and I had a few things to say about that. So,
Pisha (20:23)
I'm sure you
Raven (20:25)
So after that happened, I got an awful phone call from my parents, speaking
telling me that the dog that was mine, that they were caring for at the time, they had to put her down. Yeah, and so I am going to read you the text messages of the...
Pisha (20:39)
Oh.
Raven (20:47)
Pretty much the moments right afterwards, because I was just sending things with him. And right afterwards, I got this phone call from my parents. And then this is my text messages with this man who doesn't believe that women have built anything in society. You know, this is gonna be good. So my message to him is, my parents called this morning and they're putting my old dog down that they were caring for. I don't think I can handle this. My heart is shattered. And he says, I'm sorry to hear that.
Pisha (21:02)
So good.
Raven (21:14)
I wish I could comfort you more. And I said, I wish you could too. And then he says, I almost called for phone sex last night. Good God, you turned me on more than any women I've ever met. Just something about you women. Yeah, not woman. Just something about you and your voice.
Pisha (21:27)
Women?
I hope he's listening. You're a knobhead.
Raven (21:35)
I hope so too. He knows it. And
he says, sorry, if that was inappropriate, I'm sorry about your dog. And then I said, I just can't think about anything else right now. I'm sorry. I know it's not on you to keep talking to me. I'm just devastated. And then he says, you should go for a walk and get outside with some headphones and escape a little bit. You've had a lot going on.
Pisha (21:46)
Too little too late, sir.
Raven (22:04)
My fucking dog just died, dude. My fucking dog just died. And then I said, I can't get off my couch. He says, get off your ass and stop being sad. It doesn't help.
Pisha (22:17)
Oh.
It's very Kim Kardashian of this man.
Raven (22:23)
Yeah, so that's what's out there, ladies. Get out there on Hinge or wherever the fuck I've met him. Anyway, seriously,
Pisha (22:26)
Wow.
Oh gosh, a trash can.
Raven (22:35)
so that's the fun that you have to look forward to in dating apps. So yeah, but I mean, he also wrote a song about my boobs. So.
Pisha (22:46)
You can't just end with that. What was your favorite lyric?
Raven (22:46)
So there's some pros too.
Oh, God, I don't remember. I have no idea. I'll have to go and ask our mutual friend. She probably, I think I sent it to her, so I'll have to look it up. Maybe I'll post it somewhere. It was good. It was really good. Yeah, so, you know, there's...
Pisha (22:55)
Now.
Oh man, hilarious.
Raven (23:09)
This is kind of a lighter story. Obviously, it's terrible, but just as far as not being a kind human being. But there's a lot of issues with dating apps and the increase of violence that comes with it. So there's an increase that's happened with stalking, with sexual assault,
with murders, unfortunately, and with dick pics. So yeah. So all around not good.
so Dick
Pisha (23:34)
Yeah, yeah, dick pics. It's a real thing. It's awful. It's not fun. And honestly, there appears to be certain types of victims of these horrible behaviors. Unfortunately, the demographics are pretty divided over whether or not online dating is generally a positive experience. 57% of men report it's positive. Of course, it's positive if they get their dick wet.
Um, and then only 48% of women report positive. So it's, it's a little less. And part of the problem is that women are more likely to get overwhelmed by the number of messages when they open an online dating profile. That's 54% of women as compared to only about 25% of men. So men are also more likely to feel insecure as a result of not getting messages.
So 64% of men reported feeling insecure as a result of a lack of messages, whereas only 40% of women. So that seems like pretty good motive to get angry, maybe get a little violent. It's not looking great. And then also statistics show that men are more likely to use these dating apps for casual sex. That's about 31%.
of the users reporting that that's what they use it for, male users, whereas only 13% of female users say that. So 52% of users say that they've encountered a person that they thought was trying to scam them. This kind of confused me because I was like, do they mean catfishing? Do they like, you know, oh, I look different than who I am versus I'm a Nigerian prince, give me money. You know what I mean?
Raven (25:23)
I think I have an answer for that. And this may just be in talking to the male users of dating apps. There are actually a lot of like fake female profiles that are out there that are either, I mean, they're either gonna be scams for like Insta models or only fans type of girls. And they see those as a scam because
Pisha (25:25)
Ooh!
Okay.
Well, yeah, and 63% of men say that they've reported dealing with someone that they thought was scamming them. That's a
Raven (25:52)
So yeah, I mean, I guess we're, you know, again, we're talking about it kind of from the female experience. I know that the male experience is not good on dating apps. I'm not saying that like, you know, men are crushing it out there. Because, you know, the thing is that I think if one party is not doing well, then the other party is not doing well either, whether they know it or not. So.
Pisha (26:06)
Right, right.
Right, right. Well, and just to kind of go a little more in detail about some of the behaviors that women are having to deal with a little bit more than men on the dating apps. Women aged 18 to 49, 56% of them reported being sent a sexually explicit message or image that they did not ask for. And that's compared to like 25% for men in the same age group.
Another issue is someone continuing to contact them after they said they weren't interested. 43% of women aged 18 to 49 reported having this issue, only about 21% for men. In addition, women are called offensive names at a higher rate. 37% of women aged 18 to 49 reported this.
whereas only 19% of men aged 18 to 49. I'm leaving out the men and women age 50 plus because we've established that they don't use dating apps because they're skeptical of the interwebs.
Raven (27:17)
I really...
I really just want to hear you with that, elderly voice again. It was so good.
Pisha (27:24)
I'm sorry.
Ask and you shall receive, my child.
Raven (27:35)
I think that's my favorite one on you. I love it.
Pisha (27:38)
I know, I really like that one, but baby's really fun too. Baby's super fun. Okay, so last one is being threatened with actual physical harm. Women age 18 through 49 reported, 11% of them reported having this threat made. Only 4% of men in the same age group. So this is the one that made me feel kind of sick to my stomach was how many...
Raven (27:41)
Baby is fun. Baby is fun.
Pisha (28:04)
women versus men experienced at least one of these four things, like at least one, so maybe more. And the women, 66% of women reported at least one, maybe more. Men, only 36%.
Raven (28:11)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that doesn't surprise me at all. I'm actually surprised it's not higher. Every woman that I've ever spoken to who's been on a dating app has received an unsolicited dick pic or some kind of nasty message. So.
Pisha (28:24)
Right.
Well, and right, and I think that probably gets into some of the reporting issues. Like, we're not going to talk about that in this episode, but, you know, I suspect that these numbers are probably much higher because there's an issue with women reporting harm that's done to them. Um, as you'll see, not much is usually done. So some women see it as pointless to report.
Raven (28:58)
Right, yeah. And some women may not even recognize the harm of it. And that's kind of like one of the harder things to reconcile with when you're someone who's now older, I consider myself older, and seeing some of the younger girls and not, you know, and them not being able to recognize harmful behavior. so all of those are, unfortunate, side effects, I guess, or consequences.
Pisha (29:02)
Right.
Pfft
I get it. Yeah, yeah, it's downside of youth.
Raven (29:24)
of the dating apps? that's good. That's not good. Yeah, so what are some examples of these dating app profiles you may be asking yourself? And I think we can deliver on that as well.
Pisha (29:29)
Just kidding!
So yeah, we gave, so the derangers know, we gave each other the assignment of finding the worst dating profiles we could find. And I want everyone to know that I have two backups in case Raven and I pick the same one. So I'm excited to hear what she's got.
Raven (30:01)
He doesn't have a name, but he's 33 years old. He's a technician. He is a straight man. And about him, he is pure blood and taller than Tom Hardy.
Pisha (30:15)
Pop Hardy isn't that tall if I am not mistaken. He's like only six foot. I mean, not that six foot isn't that tall. I'm just saying like in the scheme of tall guys, like why would you pick someone so average?
Raven (30:15)
I'm here.
Because he's probably not that tall and like six foot, six foot on dating apps is like five foot nine. OK, that's another. We could go into all the psychopathy of what people say they are on their dating profile when they actually are so he says you must be younger. No addictions, including to food, tattoo free, no piercings of special parts.
Pisha (30:35)
Okay, good point, good point.
Raven (30:55)
I don't know what those are. My nose is fierce. This is pretty special to me. No dogs, low, low body count, unvaxxed, no exceptions. Even if you're an 11, sorry, but you're too dumb. I can't even put the wrong spellings of everything in here, but, and now worthless to me, if you have taken it.
Pisha (31:00)
It's very special.
Raven (31:20)
I made 80k last year. If you're smart enough to figure out what I do, you will know I'm telling the truth.
Pisha (31:28)
What?
Oh
Raven (31:33)
Oh, this may be my favorite line though. Extremely ambitious with warlord potential. Warlord, warlord, warlord. Yes. So here's your man, Pisha. Oh my god. And he says, if you have kids, that's really great, but you should have kept your man.
Pisha (31:40)
With what person? What? Warlord.
Oh, everything I've been looking for.
What an unnecessary jab.
Raven (32:03)
Yeah, I mean, like, it's just, it's so, I mean, the blinders on these people, like, first of all, okay, so let me just like say a couple of things here because this is just, this is one profile. I've run across, God, a thousand of them. I'm actually like extremely entertained by really bad profiles, so I follow all of the sites
So, I mean, but the common denominator that I see in a lot of these is like, is the entitlement of it. It's like,
like you must
these things I'm you create and like in you
all of these criteria for me to like you and you're like well dude like you look like a fucking booger on a you know
yeah anyway so yeah
Pisha (32:48)
Well, that was pretty good. I now know which one I'm gonna-
Raven (32:54)
Alright, great. I can't wait.
Pisha (32:56)
So we don't know this person's name, but he is 24, and he's two miles away. Just kidding, I don't know. I don't know if that's true. But here's what it says for his profile. Norwegian business development manager, obsessed with travel, expensive restaurants, Bojack Horseman, and existential nihilism, Norwegian flag. And...
Raven (33:00)
Okay.
Wooo!
Norwegian flag, yes.
Pisha (33:26)
Yeah, and then he has a bunch of exes. No, no want these. So here's what he doesn't want, right? Number one, he does not want militant feminists. Number two, he does not want anyone with a BMI of more than 24 because in parentheses, laziness is unattractive. Blech.
Raven (33:32)
Perfect.
No!
Oh, let me guess, let me guess this guy's VMI real quick. I'm guessing like at least 30. Go ahead.
Pisha (33:55)
Right? Oh my God. Okay. Oh yeah. So his next don't want is unnatural hair colors.
So I guess blue or purple, I don't know. I mean, my hair is blonde, but that's not my natural color. So I don't know if that counts.
Raven (34:05)
Okay, sir. Yeah.
I know, I was gonna say, well, most blondes, I mean, you could tell me if I'm wrong about this because obviously I am not the expert. But.
Pisha (34:20)
Because I have blonde hair, I am endowed with all of the knowledge of blonde.
Raven (34:25)
That's what I thought. Yeah, so, so most people who are blonde aren't actually like naturally blonde, right? Like, yeah.
Pisha (34:26)
I'm sorry.
Yeah, no, I'm pretty sure there's all these studies saying that the gene responsible for blonde hair is going to completely disappear in the next like 50 years or something like that. But yeah, no, we're not real. We don't exist. We're like unicorns.
Raven (34:45)
Great.
Well this guy's not gonna want you, I don't know what you're gonna do with your life now.
Pisha (34:51)
He's gonna hate me and just wait, it's gonna get worse. Not with this next one though, this one makes sense. Like I would have to do this anyways, but okay. So he doesn't want someone who tries to be a Kardashian. And then he uses a bunch of quotes from this point going forward. He doesn't want someone who uses the quote, I identify myself as. He doesn't want someone who uses the quote, due to the patriarchal society.
Raven (34:54)
Okay. There you go.
Okay.
Oh, okay.
Oh boy.
Pisha (35:22)
Also, he doesn't want to quote unquote have her instead of a quote unquote doer. I guess he just made words up now. And okay, here's where I'm ruled out immediately. Kurt Cobain fangirls. He does not like them.
Raven (35:31)
Cool, yeah.
It's so specific and weird!
Pisha (35:41)
So specific. And I thought about this for so long. At first I was like, what's wrong with us? But then I was like, oh yeah, we're super feminist because Kurt Cobain was hardcore feminist and was really outspoken against violence against women. So yeah, of course. Anyways.
Raven (35:45)
Heh.
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, these are all red flags like all over the place on this guy.
Pisha (36:05)
Well, that's what I think's funny is like, there's these big red X's and I'm like, are these red flags or is this what you don't want? And so I've got four more. Yeah, he doesn't like people who believe that we need to raise the minimum wage. I don't know what this one means, but no X slags or current slags. Is that like a European word or something?
Raven (36:16)
great!
Oh god, I don't know. I'm not up on the... Yeah.
Pisha (36:33)
Maybe like, like a, yeah, I don't know what that means. So, okay, so he also doesn't like when people say, I am offended and I have rights. And finally, this is also gonna rule me out because I've been all about these lately. Baggy jeans.
Raven (36:45)
Okay.
Mm, yeah, well, that is a red flag right there. Baggy jeans. Baggy jeans means more room for snacks.
Pisha (36:54)
Yeah, so...
Yeah, and, um, yeah, no, snacks, sneaking snacks into the movie theater. That's right.
Raven (37:06)
Yeah, so he should actually want that. I don't know what his problem is. Yeah.
Pisha (37:10)
I don't know what his problem is either, but he's some Norwegian guy. And so that was what I found, but I need everyone to know that my second place was a guy who created a game where you added one if you had these qualities and you took away one if you had these qualities. And then if you had a certain total out of 20, that's all it takes by the way, only 20.
Raven (37:15)
Well, red flags.
Oh god.
Yeah, well, that's not much, but in any case, yeah, I mean, like the time it shows like men just overestimating their market value. That's what it is. Yeah.
Pisha (37:45)
Right? And like, we'll talk about incels later this month, but my question is maybe the problem is your standards and how unlikable you are.
Raven (37:56)
Like you can't say you have to be all of these things when you're literally a piece of garbage. Yeah. Fucking dumpster fire. Anyway.
Pisha (38:02)
Exactly.
Yes. So, those were my really great profiles. And I don't know how this leads into all the legal stuff, but we got to talk about the legal stuff because we're the two deranged lawyers. We do not think that part through. It's okay. It's okay. We're here for it. We're here for it. So, I will. So, dating app liability overview. You know, I just am going to read straight from the PowerPoint. Hint.
Raven (38:11)
Love it.
Yeah, we didn't create that segue very well.
Okay, if you should take it away.
Pisha (38:35)
There really is none. Like there's really almost no liability against these dating apps if your date becomes violent. So the Communications Decency Act generally bars liability of any dating app for harm happening from a third party user. Under tort law and negligence theories, a duty of care only exists if the parties have a special relationship. So...
Raven (38:38)
There you go.
Pisha (39:05)
The special relationship is defined as something that's above and beyond a relationship you'd normally have with just a person you're passing on the street. You know, a reasonable care relationship. I'm going to argue that there is a special relationship, but the courts don't agree. When match.com matched Kay Beckman with Wade Riley, Wade viciously stabbed and beat her.
Beckman brought a lawsuit against match.com and argued that match had a duty to warn her that her date was dangerous, but the courts disagreed. With no special relationship established between match.com and with Kay Beckman, match didn't even have a duty to warn, let alone any sort of duty to protect.
The ruling of the Ninth Circuit determined that no special relationship exists between a dating app user and the app itself. And I want to say, but why the fuck not? Because these apps are completely distinguishable than the other platforms online like Facebook or Pornhub, right? Where you're buying a product and you're being given something or you're using a platform to free speech, whatever.
Raven (40:08)
Yeah.
Pisha (40:25)
This is a different situation where you have a company collecting people profiles to recommend, to match, to suggest, to other clientele. So I would argue that they have an increased duty, a special relationship, in other words, to their users because they are intentionally matching them and profiting off of these matches. So
I just, I don't agree with it, but that's where it stands right now. There is no special duty, I mean, special relationship existing between the users of online dating apps and the dating app companies. So they really don't have to do anything. If however, a dating app has actual knowledge that someone using their site has been found guilty of committing violent acts so similar.
that they would rise to the level of foreseeable harm. That's like, this is so much legalese that makes me really mad. Like there's so many places where these companies could attack, you know, whether or not they have a duty or having actual knowledge. They could just be like, oh wait, the act wasn't similar enough. Oh, we had no knowledge because they, we didn't know, you know what I mean? There's just so much.
Raven (41:28)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Pisha (41:50)
wiggle room for them so they're never held accountable. And so there might be a duty to warn only if the acts are similar enough that there's a foreseeable harm of them continuing again. Unfortunately, dating apps will not go out of their way to find this information. They won't do background checks. They won't...
Raven (41:51)
Yeah.
Pisha (42:14)
do, they will maybe put in their user agreements, oh, if you violate community standards, we'll ban you, but they really don't take any effort to find out whether or not people are violent. And so, in the...
Raven (42:30)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I can tell you exactly how effective their, like, oh, we're going to ban someone if we get a report of you is. Like, I've reported people on the apps before in the past who have done heinous things. And, um,
Pisha (42:44)
And does anything happen?
Raven (42:45)
No, no. So, so of course, I mean, and that's the problem. And I guess that's like, that's the whole point with this is that, you know, the dating apps have not made, like dating better for women as like, as a lot of men out there like to think, because they have a lot more options. The problem is that men continue to be violent against women.
and there's zero liability for it. And so then the onus is always placed, and I'm sorry to
to cut you off here, but the onus is placed on the women users in order to figure this shit out for themselves. When these companies have people who are using their sites, who they know and have easy access to know that they're sex offenders, because that's a public fucking thing to know, or that they have prior convictions and things like that. And so, you know, so there's, you know, I don't know how much more you wanted to go into.
Pisha (43:29)
Right.
Raven (43:39)
the cases that you were talking about, but we did have some ideas for, you know, trying to make it better, at least.
Pisha (43:47)
Yeah, no, I just wanted to say quickly that in the Beckman case, Ridley actually did have a history of criminal violence. I think he'd had a few even prior rapes reported on Match.com. And so despite all of this, criminal history of domestic violence and battery.
Raven (43:56)
Yeah.
Pisha (44:08)
about 10 years before the attack where Kay Beckman was raped and stabbed. And so despite this, Match was unaware of his criminal record and therefore did not have any actual knowledge of the foreseeable harm. And despite the fact that they were warned by at least two other women who were sexually assaulted by Riley,
but for completely bullshit reasons that I can't remember. There's something like, oh, the emails got lost or oh, they used lowercase Ls instead of ones in the username, so we won't. Yeah, some bullshit. And it's like, oh, so they didn't have actual knowledge. So there's ways of holding these companies accountable, I think is the overarching point I wanna make.
Raven (44:44)
I think that was it.
Mm-hmm.
Pisha (44:56)
but it is so difficult the way it stands. Like look at this case where this woman after this guy had used match.com already to rape two other women, and they reported this to match.com, he was still able to rape a third woman and stab her.
Raven (45:13)
Yeah, yeah, it's...
Pisha (45:14)
But no liability, no liability on match.com because no special relationship.
Raven (45:19)
Yeah, that's crazy. And so that breeds predators, right? Like, I mean, that says to predators that they're able to use these people's or these websites, you know, platforms, create those profiles and continue to victimize women. You know, yeah, and I'm saying women, I guess I can, you know, add in people, generally, because I know that there's, you know, there are cases that I know of that have happened on sites like Grindr. That
Pisha (45:33)
Exactly.
Raven (45:49)
target men, typically gay men, unfortunately. So in any case, yeah, so, I mean, this may not be much of a surprise, but as a result of the fact that there are literal predators on these apps, the perception of safety differs between men and women on these sites. So for, I
of Americans all around support companies requiring background checks to create profiles. But there's obviously no obligation right now to do so. But the
overall, like US adults, 49% of US adults think that in general dating sites and apps are a safe way of dating people, of meeting people, and 48% think that it is very safe or somewhat safe.
splitting that up by gender, 41% of men think that it is not safe, 57% think that it is safe, and the exact inverse is what you'd see with women. 57% say of women say that it is not safe, and 41% say that it is safe. So, and then, you know, kind of transferring that over to what
people believe should happen. I think 60%
people believe that dating apps should require a background check to create a profile. And 15% think that they should not. And exactly as you would believe, less men that 60%. It's only 54% believe that there should be, and 18% believe there should not be.
While with women, it is 64% that believe that there should be a background check and 12% think that there should not be. So there's clearly that difference and that difference is reflected in the fact that, like I said, there's direct threats to women that they're facing on a daily basis on these dating apps. So,
Pisha (48:02)
Yeah, it's kind of bleak.
Raven (48:04)
It is, it's not looking great for dating in America. So yeah.
Pisha (48:12)
No kidding. I mean, we really examined America, but some of the statistics in Europe were just as shocking. So it's just so weird. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So I mean, it's just not safe out there to be a woman in particular. And it's so shocking to me that these companies resist the background checks because it means they escape liability. What just
Raven (48:20)
Yeah, Australia too actually. I looked at some in Australia. They're really bad. Yeah, so anyway.
Pisha (48:42)
can take the accountability. Like, come on, like do basic background checks, like all you got to do that like, for Uber, one of the comparisons when I was reading about the, communications decency act. One of the things I read about was
Raven (48:56)
All right.
Pisha (49:00)
in my studies, I found that Uber dealt with a lot of safety issues that the dating apps are dealing with right now. But Uber requires background checks and identification verification. Identification verification. Is that a thing? Identification verification. There's too many shuns. So yeah.
Raven (49:15)
Yeah, that's right. It is identity, identity. Yeah, it's fine. We know what you're talking about.
Pisha (49:23)
Thank you. But yeah, it's just Uber started making these safety checks. They didn't have any obligation to make them, but they started doing things like, for example, they made it possible for friends and family to track rides that you were on and just little features like that to make things safer. Right.
Raven (49:46)
support, right? Like they have a 24-7 support for people who have been assaulted. I think that they had been sued quite a bit, and that's probably why they made some of those changes. But I agree.
Pisha (49:51)
Exactly.
Right, but the difference is the drivers are employees. So there's like employer liability and not, there's a special duty there because they're an employer versus there's no special duty to the users here because they're not technically being employed.
Raven (50:12)
Well, technically speaking, they're independent contractors, but we don't have to get into that. But I know what you meant. No, no, but I know what you mean. I know what you mean. So like, these people are being hired to do a service. And so if that service provider is hiring people or allowing people who are rapists or whatever, who have convictions of rape and things like that,
Pisha (50:16)
Right, right, but yeah, we don't have time to get into that shit.
Raven (50:39)
then obviously they're gonna have some liability. They're not quite the same thing, but at the same time, I do think that, you know, our first proposal that these companies be required to make at least the men have background checks for other violent crimes. Like, I don't, I mean, obviously, like, I think it's stupid if it's like drugs or whatever. And, you know, like, I'm all about ban the box. Like these, you know, people who've been convicted of crime should get a second chance,
Pisha (51:01)
Right.
Raven (51:09)
I do think that there needs to be some level of warning by these companies because some of the stories that I was reading about this are truly horrifying. There are people who have been convicted six times of rape, like of violent rape, and they're still allowed back on the dating apps of the sites. So I know that Match had to make some major changes and did make some changes.
But I did read that Plenty of Fish, which was a subsidiary, I guess, that they didn't do that and that led to the unfortunate murder of a woman. So yeah,
Pisha (51:47)
Right, yeah I remember reading that one.
Raven (51:50)
it's a problem. I mean, it's part of a more broader problem that in this month that is ours, Women's History Month.
that I think is an important thing to talk about. Next month is actually Sexual Assault Awareness Month. But in the same vein, I think that women need to band together, like we have in many, many ways. But we also need to be vocal about the things that are affecting us, which include fucking dating apps being bullshit.
Pisha (52:19)
Right?
Raven (52:20)
I'm in favor of like requiring or at least having some regulation that is does more than what it does now. Cause like, to be honest with you, some of the things that these dating apps are doing is quite frankly like offensive to me because you know,
Don't leave your drink out and like don't go home on the first date and all these things. And it's like, do you? Right.
Pisha (52:47)
Go to a public location. Don't go to a remote cabin in the woods where he can skin you alive. It's like, oh my God. We watch so many true crime documentaries. We watch so much true crime. We know how to escape murderers and predators, although it still fucking happens no matter how hard we try. The risk is just, it exists all the time and it's exhausting and you can't always keep your guard up.
Raven (52:54)
do you honestly think that women haven't heard this our entire fucking lives? Seriously, like, ugh.
Yeah!
Seriously. Right. It is. Yeah, exactly. I mean, and it's placing the onus, like I said, again, on the victims. And like, am I saying that like you shouldn't be careful and like, accept that this is the reality that we live in? Like we do, we have to. Like we do have to be careful. You know, I'm not saying that those tips aren't true. I'm just saying that it's unfair. And it is, and it like,
ignores the greater reality, which is that it's allowing, what it does is it allows for those predators to continue doing what they're doing without being held accountable at all and like, and not targeting them to stop their shitty behaviors.
some of the things I've seen, you know, with women that are, that are kind of funny is they'll take like the dick pics that they get from these, these dating apps and they'll send them to their
the guy's mom's, those kinds of things. It's vigilante justice.
But in any case, yeah.
I guess that's my one solution. It's, I mean, it's not the only solution. I think it's multi-passed that I think we need a lot more education that men need to have. Like, I think again, part of the problem is that
men are seeing these dating apps as being like a service so like that they're entitled to the women that they are seeing as a product rather than seeing as a person. And so they're not respectful of the women that they're seeing on these apps. One of the profiles that I saw today said something to the effect of like, I learned today that there are these sites that women have that talk about the shitty things that men do to them.
So you have to be respectful. And I was like.
Pisha (54:55)
Oh, you poor thing.
Raven (54:58)
I guess that's how you're gonna learn respect then, good on you, sir. God. Yeah. I'm sorry.
Pisha (55:02)
Wow. Oh my God. Well, I mean, there's really not a ton of hope for holding companies accountable either, unless we could get them to start enacting some of these safety measures that Uber has. We see, I think, Bumble has a anti-cyber flashing feature, which blurs out potentially sexually explicit photos.
Raven (55:12)
Mm-hmm.
Pisha (55:32)
And there's, I think all of the dating apps have an age verification to protect kids, at least because kids, but not women. Um, yeah, but I mean, there, there has to be some way to hold these companies accountable or else they're not going to change their behavior. And so I don't know what it is because the communications decency act really prevents us from making any real changes.
Raven (55:32)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Pisha (55:59)
but really it's just you're right. This is not on women to fix. We are the victims of this and the dating apps and the men have to figure out how to get their shit under control. And if that means like calling each other out, like ditching the bro code, I don't know. Just think of some ideas, please. And you guys modify your behavior. That would be cool. Thank you.
Raven (56:12)
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, yeah. There was, so have you heard of Daniel Sloss? Do you know who he is? So he's a comedian and he actually talks about this. He had a friend who had sexually assaulted a woman and so he goes on to his special and he's like, you know, he talks like very earnestly about how awful it was to learn that and how important he found out that it was to talk about it like with other men, with authorities, those kinds of things.
Pisha (56:30)
Uh-uh.
Raven (56:54)
it should not be all on women. It is not a women's issue. In fact, I would call it a men's issue. Let's just call it what it is because they're the ones who are doing the thing. So that is a men's issue. So that's part of the thing that I take issue with in reading about this is like, it's really very much targeted at women. And I really think that it should be targeted at men. I think that men need to learn the concept of consent.
Pisha (57:00)
Yeah, absolutely.
Right.
Raven (57:22)
And that should be taught in much, you know, more bold ways. So that they can finally fucking get it through their thick ass goals. So.
Pisha (57:28)
Right?
Yeah, and we decided collectively, you and I, that if none of these things work, we can just stop dating altogether. And for you, yeah, yeah.
Raven (57:42)
Which I have. This is just so, I mean, like, yeah. I'm already on my way to becoming like a wood switch. That's what I've been telling everybody. So, yeah.
Pisha (57:47)
Right. You want to be a woods witch and I want to be a swamp goblin with a lot of cats if I ever had to date again. But luckily I like I'm so grateful after reading all of this terrible stuff and all of these awful stories from women and people from minority communities, just the horror stories. I'm so grateful I don't have to date. And so if Jason ever leaves me,
Raven (57:53)
Yeah!
Pisha (58:12)
I'm going to move to a swamp and, and just collect cats.
Raven (58:17)
Yeah, well, I'll be next door in the woods so we can hang out. The other... Oh, dogs, you know. You know how I do. Yeah.
Pisha (58:21)
What are you going to collect in your woods?
Oh, okay, so you'll have dogs, I'll have cats. We'll make sure that they're adequately separated.
Raven (58:31)
Yeah, I'll try my best. But yeah,
Pisha (58:32)
Hahaha
Well, I mean, I think we covered it all for this week. Do you feel like we did
Raven (58:41)
We
Pisha (58:42)
say that we're going to cover some of these like really terrible online dating horror stories where women have been murdered.
some of the most heinous crimes you can think about and talk about really specific cases, including the Wade Riley case. So we're going to talk about that in the future. But we wanted to really cover the basics because these are very, this is our reality as women. These are the dangers we deal with. And to be honest, when we're just walking out in the world, we're exposed to a certain amount of danger. But when we're online,
The danger is limitless. There is no end to the danger because like you said, the exposure to men that you maybe wouldn't encounter just walking around and you're having to do those
Raven (59:19)
Mm-hmm.
Pisha (59:31)
risk assessments on these guys. So, it's a very real reality for us and I'm glad we talked about it.
Raven (59:33)
Right.
to make it a little bit lighter than our prison riots, which covered a lot of like beheading and like dismembering and beatings and things like that. But it's still, you know, it's still
know, it's still
you
on society. But yeah, I mean, it's also something to be aware of on this International
Women's Day of 2024.
Pisha (1:00:00)
That's right. And join us next week for a special episode. I think I alluded to it in our most recent live, which by the way, everyone join us for those. We have so much fun doing those live events. So, keep, keep your eye out. Yeah, we will. I think we've got one planned for the end of this month, but we'll talk about that more later. anyways, next week we will be.
Raven (1:00:13)
we'll do another one soon.
Pisha (1:00:22)
honoring the two-year anniversary of a friend of mine's disappearance. My friend Eric Ray Brazil went missing in Oregon about two years ago on March 14th. And so we're going to take a very quick look at his case and just the really quick details about it because I think you and I want to do an in-depth investigation on this and see if we can't.
get the ball rolling, see if we can find where Eric is. We just need to find him.
Raven (1:00:54)
Yeah,
absolutely. I look forward to it and you know, and I'm
But I'm,
around his anniversary of his disappearance and maybe it'll bring some awareness, we hope.
Pisha (1:01:05)
Yeah, absolutely. Anything we can do to kind of reignite the fire under the investigation so that we can find them would be awesome. And we'll talk more about that next week. In the meantime, like, follow, subscribe on all those socials and stay out of law school and the infirmaries.
Raven (1:01:26)
Bye!
Raven Deranger (1:01:29)
Remember to like and subscribe to Deranged DeJure on your favorite podcast platform and follow at deranged.dejure on all the major social media. Contact us by email at deranged.dejure at gmail.com. This has been a Raven Kink production.