Join Derek Hudson as he explores Essential Dynamics, a framework for approaching the challenges facing people and organizations. Consider your Quest!
Welcome to Essential Dynamics. I'm Derek Hudson. I'm the creator of Essential Dynamics and host of the Essential Dynamics podcast, where we learn about the principles of essential dynamics through deep conversations with interesting people. I'm really excited to have, my friend and colleague, Mike Palmer, on the podcast today. Mike, welcome to the essential dynamics.
Mike:Thanks for having me.
Derek:Mike, Mike is the founder or one of the founders and the and the CEO of Valley Landscape Inc, an Edmonton Landscape Construction Company. And, Mike's got a really interesting background. He's got a really interesting business in an industry that, let's say, isn't a leader in management innovation. And so Mike's, Mike's a little maybe a little bit ahead of the game. But, first of all, Mike, maybe we'll get you started with, you didn't choose to be a landscaper coming out of, high
Mike:school. I did not.
Derek:You did not expect to be in this business? In fact in fact, when you come you came in out of high school, what did you wanna be when you were gonna be A
Mike:doctor, actually.
Derek:Yeah.
Mike:I was planning to be a doctor. That was the plan.
Derek:And so maybe help us understand, how landscaping was a better alternative for you than that. Oh, yeah.
Mike:That's a great question. So I came out of high school, and I wanted to be a doctor and a good family friend. He's like, you know, before you go to school for twelve to fourteen years, you might wanna make sure that's what you wanna do. And so he's like, you know, find a shorter medical related program, which I did. I went and studied respiratory therapy at at NAIT.
Mike:And it was about halfway through the program, like, I do not like this. I almost actually quit the program, but he's the program director is like, Mike, you gotta keep going. You're you're you're excelling at the study part of it, and your clinical is good. And I'm like, okay. Well, he's like, what do you wanna do?
Mike:And I'm like, I'm gonna go to business school because my mom had a business growing up, and, like, I'm gonna go to business school. He's like, well, that's great. This will help support being a respiratory therapist will help support you through business school. So I did that. I after finishing respiratory therapy, I worked for a year, and then I I left actually for a couple years to, go and volunteer for my church in Southern California.
Mike:And some people like that, that's not really a volunteer. It's more vacation, but it it really was. It was a awesome experience. And while I was there, we we volunteered. Once a week, we had to go and do community.
Mike:Well, we didn't have to. They they invited us to go and do community service, which we did, and we went to the Castaic Water Conservatory Agency in in Santa Clarita, California, and we landscape every day. They're doing service, basically teaching people how to do landscaping with very little water. And, at that point, I I definitely didn't, gain a love for landscaping other than the only thing that I thought of coming out of that was with a sore back. But I remember joking around the the guys I was with, and there's a couple girls as well.
Mike:They're like, yeah. So what do you wanna do when you get back home dead? And I'm like, you know, I I'm gonna have my own business. It doesn't matter what it is. I could sell dirt for a living if if that's what it meant.
Mike:And lo and behold, here I am essentially selling dirt.
Derek:Selling dirt. Oh, wow. So, there's a bunch of stuff I wanna get to. So first of all, on this podcast, we've talked about I've talked about my mission Yeah. Which, was not in sunny Southern California.
Derek:So it does sound like a vacation to me, but my dad served in California in the fifties. So Wow. That's cool. And second thing is you excelled in your respiratory therapy program. Some of our listeners on this, this podcast are young people, and I'm really interested in helping young people understand the principles that we talk about.
Derek:And one of the things I pick him up picking up from what you're saying, we could extrapolate it into a principle a little bit is, just because you're good at something doesn't mean you have to do it for a living.
Mike:That's right.
Derek:So what was it where was the gap between what you were good at and what you actually enjoyed doing, and how did how did that, how did you under under come to understand that as a respiratory therapy student?
Mike:Well, that's a great question. So two things happened. So when I graduated from high school, I was barely 17. I'm a January birthday, and so I was super young. And I really loved the study of biology and chemistry and the body as a whole.
Mike:Hence, why I thought being a doctor would be great. But when I got into the field, for me, I there is there's a lot of gratification in serving others and helping people's health. But but literally for me, Derek, it was I still remember in my rotations, your first year in respiratory therapy is all school. And what I mean all school, it was a two year program at the time. Now it's three, but the reason it used to be two year program was because I don't I don't think I saw the light of day for the first year because we'd start at seven in the morning and go till four, and then usually you're staying at school afterward for practicing.
Mike:So I love the study of it. I loved my classmates. But when I got into the actual application of it, for me, it was it was very routine. Like, back then, they used to do a lot of flowcharts. So if patient is exhibiting this, you do that.
Mike:And it's it's differential diagnosis is what some people call it. And and I was like, okay. Well, I'm I I I just felt like I didn't have. I liked problem solving, but but the the problem solving that with my limited understanding at the time, and this is a no discount to those that work in the medical field because I have the utmost respect for them. But it was to come to a certain outcome, if that makes sense.
Mike:And and I realized quickly that I really like problem solving different things, and, you know, people could be different. And it just to me was very routine. And the things that we studied in school, we weren't allowed to apply in the field because I was a doctor. But so that answered the question. I I you know?
Mike:Okay. Well, then do I keep going to be a doctor? But secondly to that, I still remember it's actually interested in this question. I was I was meeting with somebody this morning. Somehow this came up.
Mike:And and, what did it for me was I was 18 years old. You could imagine that. And I'm sitting in the neonatal intensive care unit looking at these premature babies that are on life support. And for me, seeing them die, I just I I didn't have it. I didn't have the maturity to see it through.
Mike:And I literally went to my program director, Kevin, and I said, I'm done. And he's like, Mike, you can't quit. He's like, you're one of our top students. You cannot quit. And so that's what did it for me as is there's the study of it, but the application, it just there is there is a disconnect between the two for me anyways.
Mike:And I decided then that it just wasn't fulfilling. I wasn't happy. And I I always knew I wanted to have a career that I liked and enjoyed going to work every day. And my dad and mom always taught me that if you love what you do, it's not work. There's hard days at work, but if you love what you do, your work isn't really work.
Mike:And that was probably some of the best advice that that I had been given to this day.
Derek:I'm gonna emphasize that, probably tied back to some conversations we've had on previous podcasts. One of the things we look at in central dynamics is the drivers. And and when there's a driver that involves your passion, it's not work. And one of the things I know that you and I have talked about about your business is if you can, get your people to feel the same thing, then, you know, getting people on the same page, motivating people, it's it's not the same as as as trying to, you know, sort of force people or entice them to do something. It's just it's more natural.
Derek:It's more natural thing. So you gotta find that internal driver. And you and you you didn't find it in the medical field?
Mike:Definitely not. No. And, I I I started working in in home care in respiratory therapy because I knew that, hospital setting wasn't the best for me, although I did keep try to keep my skills up while I was going to business school at the U of A. And, I then that's when I got a little bit of taste. I'm like, okay.
Mike:I'm liking the flexibility that home health care has to offer. It's still very regulated by by the health authority. But I really did like like the the ability to to problem solve more and come up with specific customized solutions to solve a problem. And and that's one thing that I've just I really enjoy doing is I I I I I I do enjoy getting creative in problem solving. And this just happens to be a business where there's a lot of it.
Derek:So you have the opportunity to solve problems in business. So let's, let's pick it up. So you you volunteered in California. You came back and then went into business school?
Mike:Yeah. So I actually yeah. That's correct. I went into got accepted into the U of A, school of business and got married. And I was still working as a respiratory therapist when I came back.
Mike:And and, in business school, I, me and my my best friend, Tom, we're like, we wanna get this business experience. What can we do? And we're like, well, we know how to cut grass. We knew nothing. Actually, we knew absolutely nothing about landscape construction, maintenance.
Mike:And we're like, but you know what? We'll give it a try. And we we made a commitment to one another and to our clients that we would always be honest with people, and that included if we didn't know how to do it, we told people. And that honesty really went a long ways at first. We we people say, hey.
Mike:Can you do this? And, like, land developers came up to us in our third year of business. We're like, no. We we can't do that, which we'd actually work for that very land developer today.
Derek:Today. And one of
Mike:a very great client. Yep. We're actually finishing up some projects. But at the time, you know, seventeen, eighteen years ago, we just said, we're not comfortable doing that. We we don't have the skills and qualifications to do it.
Mike:And I was like, great. Thanks for being honest.
Derek:That's fantastic. I appreciate you sharing that. I wanna go back to business school for a minute. Sure. So you were operating your business and in business school at the same time for a couple of years?
Mike:Yes. For three years. All three years of business school. Sorry. Two years.
Mike:Two years of business school. We started at the end of our first year of business school, and then, yes, kept us.
Derek:So I, I have the same degree, same alma mater, and from time and I'm actually an instructor in the business school now. So come full come full circle. So I'm interested in what did you learn in school, and was it easier to learn it because you're running a business at the same time?
Mike:Yeah. So one of the greatest things Derek, we got asked this question by the Alberta School of Business, had a magazine at the time. Faiza actually interviewed me. And she's like, well, how does business school apply to landscaping? And I said, the one thing that that business school taught me was how to figure out, how it taught me a framework, how to solve and figure out problems.
Mike:You know, there wasn't one thing until this day that if there's a if there's a problem presented towards me, I feel that I have the tools to find the answer to that problem. I may not have that knowledge memorized, but I I and that was one of the greatest, gifts that the Alberta School of Business gave me was taught me how to critically think and especially in today's world when, well, what is a proper way to do something you're not? How to critically think, how to find useful information, and how to find the true information that actually applies and not some fad that's gonna be temporary and last a short term. But that's what it really taught me is is how to solve problems with a in an under an appropriate framework.
Derek:And was that in a particular class or discipline, or was that kind of the collective thing that you learned from all of your work at the at the school business?
Mike:I'd say that it was a running principle. It didn't matter if it was marketing, you know, accounting, which I know you're you're an accountant and actually thought about being an accountant one time, and I'm like, no. I'll just make sure I hire good ones. But even in accounting, right, there's a certain framework that have to you have to do things done, and this goes back to the respiratory therapy thing. Except the the framework that I was taught in business, I just felt that I had a lot more latitude, and I could figure out the answers as opposed to the answers being told to me.
Mike:And that's that's the difference I find between the two, in my opinion. At at at NAIT, I was, you know, very much this is the problem, and this is how you solve the problem versus U of A. This is the problem, and these are the tools that you can use to find the solution to the problem.
Derek:Yeah. That's, that's awesome. I I think what I wanna do now is talk about some of your problems that you've had, live problems that you've had as as an entrepreneur and how like maybe some examples. And you know, and on this podcast and in our conversations as well, sometimes you just you just kinda get stuck. Sometimes you know you're stuck, sometimes you don't, and and so you need a new way of solving your problem to kinda get past that.
Derek:So I just wonder if you have any stories for us on, some of the tough times. And I know you lot lots. We're we've got about ten minutes left in this episode.
Mike:So if you wanna interrupt any of this stuff and say, okay. That's good enough for that one. Just feel free. But, I think one of the first problems that happened quite early was, which is a real problem, I think, for any business. So where where we gonna find the capital to do this?
Mike:That is a very real thing. And and, you know, Tom and I, we we didn't wanna spend a lot of money because the landscaping business was never meant to be a long term thing. It was to be our summer job and to gain experience. And with that with that vision, well, why would you invest in the company? And, but as the company grew and, like, all of our work would come from referrals, and we needed equipment to do the work.
Mike:And so that that was a big, big thing. And and, you know, we were we were fortunate enough that Tom's dad had a bobcat that the deal that we had was he let us use the bobcat, but we had to maintain the bobcat, like any maintenance, any repairs, whatever throughout the years. And so that was a huge, huge, huge blood thing. I was still working part time as a respiratory therapist at the time, and so I was able to put money into that. But the capital thing as we you know, as you know, at the end of business school, I I I just you know, Tom and I were gonna actually sell it, and I looked at it.
Mike:And I'm like, this would be ridiculous to sell. It is a good business. And so, I purchased his half of the shares out, and I, self Tom allowed me to pay him out a lump lump sum and then to pay him some more over time. And that literally almost buried me afterwards because you have no idea the the the the amount of capital that you require to keep growing a business. And, that was one of the things as cash flow management, just extremely valuable.
Mike:Even I still remember going to the bank at one time and asking for operating line of credit, and he's like, well, this is what we can do, Mike. And I'm like, I'm getting all excited. He's like, you give us 50 thousand dollars and we'll put it in a bank account for you, and that can be your operating line. And I felt so insulted. I'm like, are you think I'm stupid?
Mike:Like, that's the silliest thing ever heard. And, you know, I I had a client at the time that said I, he he owns a bunch of real estate. At the time, he owned a bunch of real estate downtown. He's like, Mike, you gotta have a good relationship with your bank, which I I started working on. And getting having that good relationship with a with a bank was was a game changer.
Mike:We were able to get finance properly, which allowed us to grow. So that was one. The second thing is is having, one of the other concerns that we had was it was actually shortly after I purchased Tom's share of the business. We had a customer that, it was a huge job. I was finishing my last year of university.
Mike:Tom had already decided to move on to something else, and, we had a customer that didn't pay us. He had some concerns with some work done on our site, and we had put a ton of effort into fixing those concerns, resolving them, but it was wasn't good enough, and we never did get paid. To this day, we never did get paid. And we had paid all of our suppliers, all of our subcontractors. And and I I was on the verge of, if it wasn't for some money from my parents, Valley wouldn't exist till this day.
Mike:And so I learned from that point that, you know, when you're taking care of clients' concerns, that's great. We need to take care of clients' concerns, but it needs to be a clear, a clear, understanding of what we're gonna do. That once we're done these concerns, we will get paid this amount of money. Because I didn't I didn't go to faith. I said, okay.
Mike:This is what we agreed to do. We had a written contract for the main scope of the work, but, it it, we never did get paid that money. And, to this day, it's still one of my favorite yards we've ever done. And but, yeah, that. And then the third thing is, people.
Mike:Managing the people side of things has been a a great challenge, which that's one thing we've been working through together is how do I get the stuff that's in my head out? How do I get out of Mike's head out? And and so that we can grow the business. And that's been the biggest challenge for me that we're continuing to work on and and continuing to see. So
Derek:So, Mike, that's a that's a great segue to our next episode. If I if I could, maybe set it up this way. What you've told us so far was were things, and there's many more things that you did in the business, just to get the job done. You had you had to buy equipment. You had to, I I know you've got stories about landscaping, employees doing dumb things and costing you money.
Derek:Yes. I I was a landscape employee in this community years ago, and I did dumb things that cost money. I understand. I don't I don't know if I was if I was break even over about the three or four years that I did it in terms of value compared to damage. So so there's all that that's the day to day that just keeps, that keeps going and never stops.
Derek:And, you said that you like problem solving, you learned some of that in school, you've learned it on the job. And so I would say that your personal drive, energy and resourcefulness got your, company to a certain level, which was far bigger than you thought it would ever be.
Mike:That is correct.
Derek:And then just to set up for next time, but then you kind of got stuck again. You know, can you just describe what what that was like, say, maybe, like, three and a half years ago when we first started talking?
Mike:So, it's it's very difficult to put into words in a in a in a short amount of time, but it's it's literally like I've I felt like there's a big roadblock there that, you know, Valley Landscape's always, been very fortunate to have a lot of work, and a lot of our work comes from referrals, but you can you reach a capacity when that's all in in your head. And not only that, but if any other business owner like me, that burden of going home each night and feeling that everything is on your chest and on your back is it takes a toll on. And, it it it affects how you treat those that are most important in in your life and in terms of your relationships with your your, your spouse and your children. And and I was just literally at a point where I needed help, and I didn't know how to get that help because I never anticipated the the business to grow to where it did. And so that's when we reached out to you, and it's been working through systems and and getting that stuff out of my head and into the the heads of others.
Derek:So that's what we'll talk about next time. So I love that. This is almost a cliffhanger. This might be one of the best cliffhangers we've had on, our sort of two part episodes. So so, for those of you who are listening to, to our podcast, we're in great anticipation.
Derek:And two weeks from now, you'll be able to hear, how Mike got himself out of the roadblock. Mike, thanks very much for coming on the podcast. Mike said ValleyLandscape will, right, that's valleylandscape.ca. Do I have that right?
Mike:That's correct.
Derek:We'd like to thank Brynn Griffiths from Road fifty five who's producing the podcast episode. I'm Derek Hudson, and you can find us at getunconstrained.com. And until next time, consider your quest.
Robot:This series is proudly produced by the team at Road fifty five. Road fifty five creates content that connects. For more information, check our website, www.road55.