Behind The Brand

Welcome to Behind The Brand, where we don’t just scratch the surface – we go all in.

This isn’t just another business podcast. This is where the real stories get told. Where founders in food and drink pull back the curtain on what it actually takes to build a brand that lasts, not just the glossy moments, but the grit, the breakdowns, the rebuilds, and the heart behind it all.

We’re Jon and Rosie Winter - founders of the multi-award-winning premium gifting service, EDEN Treats, trusted by FT100 companies such as Disney, BMW, and The Premier League. We're also the driving force behind Buy Artisan Made, a growing movement supporting the collective power of independent food & drink producers. We’ve lived it. From judging the UK’s biggest food awards and mentoring startups, to surviving health scares and making hard calls behind the scenes - we’ve seen the full spectrum of this journey.

Through Behind The Brand, we tell the stories we wish we heard starting out. From kitchen table dreams to factory floor flops, from Dragon’s Den pitches to all-night packing sessions, every episode is a reminder that behind every business that ‘made it’, there’s a human who nearly didn’t.

So if you’re building something that matters, or backing someone who is, you’re in the right place. Let’s get into it.

What is Behind The Brand?

Welcome to Behind The Brand, where we don’t just scratch the surface – we go all in.

So if you’re building something that matters, or backing someone who is, you’re in the right place. Let’s get into it.

Today I'm speaking to John and
Rosie, the co founders of Eden Treats

and by Artisan Made.

You've known each other since school.

Tell us a bit about those
early days.

How did you meet?

Go on, you probably knew this
story better than me.

Well, we actually met
September 1996.

Gosh, how long ago is that?

Crumbs.

Back in those days, your
teachers didn't really seem to care

very much about you until you
really got to DCSEs, it's fair to

say GCSEs, A levels.

That's when you actually need
to start applying yourselves and

they really needed to start
actually knowing who you were.

So we were always advertised,
my studies, Walker Johns, Winter.

So we were advertised lesson
in, lesson out, day in, day out,

month in, month out for years.

So that's how we got to know
each other, really.

I went to university slightly
further up north than Rosie, so I

was in Derby and she was at Birmingham.

Rosie studied nursing.

Whenever I would go through
New Street Station, I'd always pick

up the phone and give her a
call or we'd drop a text and then

catch up with each other.

And then we had two groups of
friends which kind of overlapped.

We'd always catch up once a
year, probably at Christmas at the

pub when we were home or in
the summer.

So we always kept in touch
with each other and then it wasn't

until actually after
university we'd kind of both gone

our different ways.

I think Rosie's qualified in
nursing, I'd qualified in business

and we were both at a mutual
friend's Scissor Sisters tribute

act.

It was strange.

They often say that sometimes
love comes like a firework, but sometimes

love just comes quietly.

I think that's pretty much how
it happened for you and I.

You were just, you were around
a lot and I quite liked it.

And then it was just sort of,
were you around even more?

And then suddenly you realize
actually your lives are kind of merged

into one.

So there wasn't really like a
point where we got together.

It was just more like, oh,
well, this seems to be working.

And we just sort of carried
on, carried on ever since.

Space.

Yes.

It sounds like you have very
different career paths until that

point.

What made you come together as
a business?

And did you always know you'd
be able to build a good, strong business

together?

When I was at school, people
would say, what do you want to do

when you're older?

And all my friends were like,
I don't have a clue, I don't know,

I don't know.

What I want to do.

I just, I knew from the age of
four I wanted to be a nurse.

It was a easy thing for me.

I was virtually brought up in
a, in a hospital where mum was very

unwell and I was small, cute
and adorable and you know, small

fat, round kid and we just,
every day we would come and visit

my mum and she would, she'd be
so excited to see us and so would

all the old essentially
grannies that were there and we just

brought so much joy and when
we stepped onto the wall they were

all really happy and excited
and I just thought this makes people

feel good.

I think I should just do this more.

And I associated being a nurse
with the feeling of, you know, doing,

doing good as well.

So I qualified as a nurse.

It was during the nursing
crisis I actually qualified where

you couldn't get a job.

You had a 1 in 1 in 6 shot of
just getting an interview back in

those days.

So I came home and I worked in
a care home for people with long

term chronic conditions.

Not what you want to do, you
want to be, you know, being punched

in the stomach and a knee or,
you know, looking at brain surgery

or.

And at that point I just
thought right, Australia, let's just

go, go abroad.

That's the recruiting, all the
big nurses.

And yeah, it didn't work out.

We ended up getting together
meantime but that kind of led into

a bit of a segue of I fell
away from nursing and I went to work

with people.

That was what I enjoyed.

I loved getting to know people through.

I found myself in HR for quite
a long time and so it was always

people that I kind of came
back to and that kind of feeds back

into when I was little of
making people happy or bringing joy

to people.

I suppose alongside that you
were in another company next door

as it happened, which is a bit strange.

But I was always mischievous.

I didn't do particularly well
at school.

I failed all bar one of my GCSEs.

Not probably because I
couldn't have done them, but I just

didn't apply myself.

I had two groups of friends,
one that was very intelligent and

the others that just wanted to
have fun.

The earliest story I remember
actually is my mum taking and mum

and dad taking them to a very
expensive solicitors in London and

I took apart their gas fire,
literally took it apart so much so

they had to close the whole
building to have it re gas inspected.

So I always had a flair for
just wanting to understand how things

worked and why they worked.

Qualification I could take So
I took psychology because I just

loved understanding people and
ended up then going into a degree

in business and marketing and
then started to focus more on E commerce

and psychology.

And the more I kind of went
down that path, the more I really

enjoyed it.

And then went to work for a
user experience company.

So it brought together the
tech side and the psychology side

as soon as they came out of
university and, and the first clients

I was working with were really
high profile and it became a very

stressful situation very quickly.

So I was there for a few years
and they said to me, you'll never

be cut out for a developer.

You haven't got the right personality.

Which, again, going back to my
childhood was the worst thing you

could say to me.

If you say you can't do this,
John, it's literally like red rag

to a ball.

I have to prove I can do it.

So I went through the web
exams, qualified in the top three

to ever take them.

I qualified through my
university degree in the top 25%

of the course as well.

And all of it probably
motivated more by the fear of failure

and shame after the school eras.

And I think that motivated me
for a lot of my early business career.

I then went freelance, started
my own, my first business, which

was as a web development
company, ironically.

And I was vying for the same
work that a local web company was

and I'd missed the connection
with people I was working on my own.

The early years of me and
Rosie being together, she was still

nursing at the time on their
biggest contract I think they'd ever

taken on.

It was my first one that I
took on with them and it really grew.

We became really good friends
over the period of five, six years.

We got to the point where I'd
kind of reached director level and

we discussed me potentially
taking the company on.

It was more of a friendship, I
think, with the owners than anything

else at that point.

And I spent a year then
wondering, should I take this business

on?

But it didn't feel right.

And largely I finally
concluded after doing some career

coaching, that it just wasn't
my dream and I couldn't pursue something

that wasn't my dream as much
as it fitted all the other boxes

in my life of wanting to own a
business, run a business, look after

a team of people, help them grow.

It just didn't, didn't fit,
didn't tick the box.

And Rosie had left nursing at
that point, was working next door

for another startup.

So we happened to be in the
same building working together at

that point.

I Decided I wasn't going to
stay there.

And I'd got really into
fitness and decided to create my

first big project, which was a
web app called Rated Fitness.

It was also my first and
probably biggest failure to date

as well.

We managed to rack up £30,000
worth of investment in terms of web

development costs and never
actually launched the app.

And I learned the biggest
lesson, which is you have to make

sure that you refine in the
marketplace, not be afraid and build

what you think people want and
never actually get to the stage of

launching it.

So from that point onwards, I
changed my mindset very drastically

and actually trained as a
personal trainer then in nutrition

and DNA and genetics, and went
and worked as a personal trainer

for five years while still
doing web on the side.

We absolutely loved going to
markets because we love supporting

small businesses and we have
all these different snacks with us

all the time, different snack
bars, different energy bars, just

different products that we
loved having.

And I'd end up giving them out
to clients more often than we got

to consume them.

So he said, well, why don't
you just do like a subscription box?

So Rosie started piecing this
idea together shortly after we'd

had the discussion.

And I remember the very first
iteration of it was this kind of

little brown pizza box with a
stamp that went on top of it and

there was literally the length
of a radiator with our stock underneath

it, which Rosie pristinely
ordered in date order underneath,

because we were terrified it
would go out of date and we wouldn't

sell it.

I think £300 is the amount we
spent on stock for this.

So given the £30,000 we'd run
up in cost the first time around,

we were slightly hesitant.

We went on holiday and thought
nothing of it and then came back

to just this absolute flurry
of orders.

And we were like, what is this?

What have we done?

And they just kept asking, can
you do gluten free?

Can you do vegan?

So we looked into the
nutritionals on these products and

most of them were handmade.

They were made from natural
ingredients, they were really good

quality.

So they just fitted the bill
of being gluten free and vegan by

chance.

So the majority of them just
were like, okay, this actually just

works.

So we ran with that for about
a year.

I think that's when things
started to change in terms of the

business becoming vegan as well.

Yeah, I think I had the idea
of, actually, why don't I just pose

as one of those customers
that's just received this box of

goodies And I'll pose in a
vegan group and say, hey, look, I've

just got this stuff, what do
you think?

I highly recommend they're
over here, why don't you take a look?

And that was my plan.

And I actually never got even
round to posting it because as I

troll through the Facebook
page, there's a lot of stuff on animal

agriculture and animal welfare
and on it, on.

And I found myself just
feeling incredibly hypocritical here

with someone that I've
considered myself as someone who

has always loved animals.

And here I am eating animals.

Can you do that?

Can you love something and eat
it simultaneously?

I think 2017, we ourselves,
the business went vegan first and

we went vegan afterwards.

And I think you found that
incredibly hard given that you, at

that point in your personal
training, you were in a very male

dominated setting where it was
protein, this, you know, how much,

how much chicken are you eating?

You eating your chicken and
your broccoli and your rice and all

that kind of stuff.

And actually you found it a
lot harder than I did.

But yeah, it was a massively
male dominated industry.

I think I was studying, I was
prepping for a bodybuilding competition

at the time as well.

It was very different from now.

And yeah, I really struggled
with the whole concept.

Interestingly though, I was
studying DNA and genetics at the

time and I was away in London
with top Harley street medical practice

and we had to do a DNA test
and part of that DNA test was, are

you allergic to anything?

My lactose intolerance was off
the top of the scale and I'd always

thought like, when we went on
holiday I was fine, but the rest

of the time I'd really struggled.

Every time we'd have
breakfast, every time we go out and

have coffee, I just never kind
of pieced the two together.

And then when I stopped, it
just suddenly disappeared.

And I remember mentioning it
to my parents and they said, oh,

yeah, the first time we gave
you dairy, we had to rush you to

hospital, you stopped breathing.

It's like, great.

You could have told me this 30
years ago.

So it's very difficult to run
a business that you're not 100% aligned

with.

So I think within a year we'd
started to.

I went from the nutritional
perspective of it was healthier for

me.

Rosie is very much the animals.

And then I think between us,
the trifecta of the environment,

the animals and ourselves,
kind of the three aligned.

And I found myself in a place
that I never thought I would have

ever been in terms of my
beliefs and feeling towards food

and it just actually, it
really inspired us.

Our cooking got much better
from that point.

We always really loved cooking.

One of our things we've always
done is traveled the world and cooked

in different places.

So we've cooked everywhere
from Vietnam to Thailand.

We've even did a bit in
Australia, been to Cuba.

We've really kind of traveled
in different places and tried to

kind of learn different
cultures and it just seemed to get

bigger from that point.

Year two for us, after going
vegan, BMW contacted us and said,

will you do our Christmas
campaign for all our FT100 clients?

Which is like the likes of
BMW, Tesco's, HSBC, all of the mini

dealerships.

So we at that point hadn't
even left our house and the business

had grown to the stage that we
were having to produce a thousand

hampers, custom made, custom
printed, custom built with all their

inserts and delivered to a
thousand different locations with

a month's notice.

So we had to grow up very quickly.

But we realized, I think being
aligned and because it was for their

electric car campaign, that a
lot more can come out of things when

you are aligned with the
mission that you're.

And I think from there it
really continued to grow.

We took on Quorn a couple of
years later, again did all of their

clients.

It was a similar sized contract.

We started doing celebrities
and things since we've done gymshark,

worked with their athletes.

We did do Dame Judi Dench,
which is actually for the highlight

of my life.

There's also been a couple of
other ones in there, Olly, Merz,

Gabby Roslyn, the few of them.

But yeah, it's been.

Have you had to go out and
look for the business?

As always, it always come to you.

Seven years.

I don't think we did a single
penny of marketing.

It was just something that
organically grew.

We were working with quite a
few of the food platforms at that

time, so Yumbles, which is, I
think the biggest UK indie food platform

now.

We were one of their original
sellers and we are still one of their

top five sellers, I believe.

So we work literally directly
with the owners of that and we know

them quite well.

We've worked with Knott on the
high street for years.

Apparently we were referred to
as one of their success stories,

whatever that means.

We've always felt that Snack
Pack and now it is Eaten Treats has

always been the child that
you've kind of forgotten about.

It's always the kid that's
just excelled beyond your wildest

expectations.

But without you really doing
anything, they kind of just got on

and did it.

And, yeah, we never gave it
the attention that it warranted or

that it really deserved.

So tell us about the cafe.

You launched a cafe.

We went through an absolute
business roller coaster, I think,

where we probably learned a
huge amount in a very short space

of time.

So we were in Vietnam, I
think, originally at the time, and

we fall in love with this idea
of starting a cafe.

And we kept talking about it
and kept on what it looked like.

A couple years later we went
to Australia.

Rosie's family were out there
and we came back and we thought,

you know what, we could live
here, we could move to here.

But being from a big family
and Rosie being close with her family,

we thought, do we move there
or do we stay here?

So we thought, you know what,
we actually really like the idea

of the Australian brunch
scene, but there's just nothing really

around here that ticks those boxes.

So why don't we create it here?

It could be a good way for us
to start working together and leave

employment altogether.

So we decided to take the jump.

I left working in web and
personal training.

Rosie left HR at the time,
actually, no, you were working for

the Ministry of Defence at
that point.

And we did a snack pack at the
same time as all those other things.

Snack pack is always just kind of.

And it no longer fitted
underneath the radiator either.

It is now.

It probably took over the
majority of the house and at one

point we had to have the
garage converted.

It was just, it was everywhere.

So after a year we were about
ready to give up on this dream.

And then I think we were just
off on our way to London.

Something came up online.

There was a cafe that had just
gone up for sale 50 yards from where

my parents took me every
Saturday growing up to this little

patisserie in the centre of
Clifton Village.

And we literally walked in.

It was exactly what we wanted.

It was in the heart of
Clifton, a road over from the Ivy,

which is the aspiration that
Rosie always wanted to get us to.

And we put an offer in and it
went through and we both gave up

our jobs as soon as it had
gone through.

And we found ourselves in this
position of suddenly moving from

employment and having some
safety to being full time entrepreneurs

in an industry that we had no
experience of.

So we trained as chefs, we
trained as baristas.

We also did a very high end
plant based cooking course and the

concept was always to bring
the Australian brunch scene to the

uk.

But In a completely plant
based way that didn't feel like it

was in your face.

We wanted to create community,
wanted to create an environment where

people could just sit, enjoy
food, feel healthy and leave feeling

A healthy and B like they'd
had a good time with people.

What we didn't plan for at
that point was the fact that Covid

was just around the corner.

So we had a business that was
doing pretty well in the background.

It was building.

We were due to go onto TV to
one of the morning TV shows.

We'd ordered all of this stock
in, we'd invested the final amount

of savings we had into
building the refurb for the cafe.

And then the day that we were
due to open the cafe lockdown kicked

in.

So we had no money, we were
completely unemployed.

We'd left our previous
employment, we hadn't had a paycheck

from the new employment so we
couldn't claim any money.

So we were officially bankrupt
at that point.

We couldn't be furloughed.

The only good thing about it
is that because when we signed the

contract on 31st January 2020,
we were due to open six weeks later

which did tie in with the, the
weekend of the first national lockdown.

So the only saving grace is
that we had a fully stocked stockroom

and we had more toilet paper
than anybody had in the uk.

So that was the only, that was
the only good thing about it really,

wasn't it?

And yeah, we closed the doors
and went home to lick our wounds

and just think, well how is
this ever, how are we ever going

to get through this?

And then suddenly we suddenly
flip an egg, what's happening over

on the snack pack side?

And it was just exploding.

Everybody wanted, we'd gone
through the stage of like this is

two weeks, let's all go just
go nuts and just eat loads of chocolate

and rubbish at home.

It ends up being the case that
when we've gone through, everyone

had gone to the stage of like,
oh actually this might actually be

lasting a little bit longer
than a couple of weeks and people,

so people wanted stuff in the
mail and they wanted stuff that was

healthy and it's like, well
that's us.

And so suddenly we were just
absolutely inundated with orders

and it was, it got to the
point that we had to have the have

arctic lorries at our house
probably on the regular.

They were probably their most
days much to our neighbors, absolute

disgust and hatred.

And you know, we would then
threaten with the police because

they were just there so much
in a Lot of ways it's frustrating

because had we had our own
premises at that point, there would

have been no holding us back.

The thing that prevented us
from doing, from going even bigger

and harder was that we just
didn't have the space to manage the

demand.

So it really kicked off for us.

Two weeks in, one of our
suppliers contacted us and said,

all of our supply chain has
gone down.

We can't go to any of the
impulse places like service stations.

All of that's gone for us.

What do we do?

Will you buy any stock?

And we were like, I don't know
what to do.

We obviously can't buy any
stock, we've got no money.

And then it dawned on us at
the same time we had all these orders

starting to come in, we
thought, do we just take a chance?

This is the first time we've
ever done anything where we're going

to be so far into the red that
we don't know if it will work.

But the orders are coming in
so quickly that we took the chance

and we just ordered way more
stock than we needed and at that

point actually turned out to
never be enough.

We just couldn't keep up with
it to the extent that one of the

breweries that we work with
currently, we kept them open and

they still are, they're now
two, three locations.

I think they grew that much.

We took a peanut butter brand
from Mum's Kitchen to national, like

with the amount of ordering we
were doing and just.

We've always worked with the
brands that we work with to help

them.

It's been 10 years for us of
judging on panels for food and drink

and watching brands grow and
marketing and working in it ourselves

and knowing what sells and
what doesn't.

So we've all been able to lean
back into that and guide them.

Eventually we managed to open
the cafe on the 17th of July, so

a little bit later than mid February.

But we did open and it was a
huge, huge success actually, wasn't

it?

I don't think we give it
enough credit for what it was, but

we.

Knew that when we opened we
had to do triple the income to just

get to a point where it was
manageable from what it was doing

previously.

So we started with three of us
on day one.

My mum was the third person
and we took on the other two reins

and thought we need to do it
from the ground up so we learn what

happens.

Within six months, there was a
team of 14.

We hit queues down the street.

We had a couple of celebrities
that came to visit Us, we had people

traveling from Cornwall for
our afternoon teas because we were

the only people that did.

We'd created a trademarked
clotted cream which was completely

vegan and it still is
trademarked now.

We had a couple that visit us
four times on weekend on their holiday.

It was hard.

I don't think you can ever
plan for what it takes out of you

energy wise and you're
learning to be married in the first

place is hard.

But learning to be in a
business and be married are very

different things and you have
to learn very different patterns.

Especially when you work
together and are both 50% directors.

Neither of you has an opinion
that's stronger than the other.

We just started fertility
treatment as well after being told

we couldn't have children.

And that was always on the
plan for us.

The business was growing
quicker than we knew what to do with.

The staff were particularly
challenging during COVID because

they could go anywhere because
jobs were just available.

We would get eight messages
eight in the morning from newly qualified

18 year old chef saying, I'd
like to be on a salary of 35,000,

I can go somewhere else and
get that.

We're like, you can't go and get.

Well, you can if you want to,
but this is just unrealistic and

you can't sell food for that
and also pay those kind of salaries

at that point.

So it became very, very
stressed very quickly.

We rebranded snack packs at
Eat and Treats.

At that point we'd wanted to
go more down the luxury hamper end.

The cafe was achieving
everything we dreamed it was the

Ivy.

But in Australian brunch
scene, people that were coming in

were experiencing exactly what
we wanted.

They loved the community aspect.

They were leaving feeling
happy, healthy and we weren't embodying

any of those things that we
set out for and we'd completely lost

track of that.

So we took stock I think at
that point and decided that we needed

to move on from the cafe that
we didn't realize at that point would

create a cascading series of events.

The co packer that we had for
Snack Pack now become Eden Treats

because we rebranded
everything in line with the cafe,

hiked up our prices in the
same weekend that we were due to

put on a cocktails and canape
evening for a bunch of about 20 millionaires.

So we were incredibly stressed
trying to serve them because we realized

the other business couldn't
stay where it was and we couldn't

move it.

The accountants were getting
the figures wrong on our stuff which

was rapidly growing.

The accountants were Also, the
people that had given us the nod

to move in with the kpax
because they knew them so well, so

they had linked us up with
them, so we couldn't tell them that

we were looking to move, but
at the same time we needed to go

through them to sell the business.

The business.

We couldn't tell the
management team that we were selling

the cafe because the whole
dream of what we created and the

idea of it expanding didn't
fit with that.

And on top of that, the whole
deal of it being sold needed a management

team that didn't require us.

So we were stuck in this
horrible loop of situation where

we, we needed to move
accountants, we needed to move the

hamper business very quickly
and we needed to get the sale of

the cafe to go through whilst
the management team didn't know what

was going on.

And the quicker the team was
growing, the harder it was to financially

keep things stable at the same time.

And it was just, yeah, it was
beyond probably what we were experienced

enough to know what to do with
at that point.

So we were learning very
quickly about hiring, firing, training,

running a business, being able
to pivot quickly and then thinking.

That you were doing fertility
treatment at the same time as they

started at this point.

So we, I've known there was a
problem years ago and I had decided,

I don't want a kid at this
point, but I want to get to the point

where I do want one and things
to be working.

So right back into, just
before COVID hit, we were working

with the nhs.

Everything was going well and
of course at the moment Covid hit,

everything stopped.

The only priority was Covid
and probably cancer and that was

it.

So fertility just didn't get a look.

And so during that process we
were fortunate enough to, to go privately

and we had done.

And your mother in law.

My mother in law said, just
try the NHS route because you never

know, they might.

If all you need is just, you
know, one, one free round of funding

and if it works, it works and
you haven't lost anything.

So we did, we hopped back onto
the NHS system and they gave us funding

for a year, but you have to
use it within 12 months.

So basically you've got
literally 12 months to use it and

if we don't use it, it's gone.

So month one came around and
that's when we parted ways with your

mum.

So that was a no.

That was way too stressful.

We couldn't cope with it, so
we waited for the stress to die down.

The following month we were
Then hit with our chef saying, I

want more money or I'm going.

So that was a no.

The following month, our lead
waitress decided to take some time

out for mental health needs.

That was a no.

And it just went on and on and
on to the point of which it got to

June, which was just before my
birthday, and I collapsed in our

sockroom and just, I can't do
this anymore.

This is just.

What are we doing?

Like, we are, we are killing
ourselves on two fronts.

We're managing two fledgling businesses.

Neither one can, can flourish
their full potential because we don't

have the capacity to give
either one the time it needs.

So I just said, I can't do
this anymore and you shipped me off.

I shoved, I was shoved out the
back door and went to, you know,

went to convalescent at my mom
and dad's for only a few days.

At that point our consultant
said to us, you need four things

to.

For a pregnancy to flourish.

You need no stress or limited
stress as possible.

Literally managing two
business is completely ridiculous.

Full stop.

You need to eat more.

I think at that point we were
eating breakfast at quarter to four

in the afternoon and the next
meal was at 11pm, so not great.

You also need, you know,
limited to no stressful exercise.

Well, the exercise thing was
the only thing I was doing.

I was doing heavy CrossFit,
which was, you know, not great, but

I needed to release some of
the stress somehow.

And the last one was sleep.

And if you're up at stupid
o'clock in the morning and you're

going to bed late at night,
you know, it was just, it was ridiculous

on all fronts.

So every single, every single
month went just tick by and you were

just watching, you know, got
to half of the year and we're just

thinking, this is just isn't
going to happen.

We can't, we cannot even get
enough space to start to have a family.

This is ridiculous.

So our broker came on board in
May and he said, look, guys, once

you find a buy, it'll be quick
and you'll be out of here probably

by September.

Which is perfect because we
had John had his brother's wedding

in the Maldives lined up in
October, like, this is brilliant

everything.

And then you're going to come
home and we're just going to start

ivf.

We'll be pregnant by the end
of the year, next year we'll have

a baby born in September,
which is, everybody wants sorted,

you know, jobs are good.

And so the process of the cafe
being sold was horrific.

I've Never known anything like it.

And right at the last minute
she threatened to pull out.

And we just thought everything
was just riding on this one girl

who.

Well, we managed to sell the
dream, didn't we?

We had done exceptionally well
of selling, selling the showpiece,

as it were.

So bear in mind the cafe was
shut for a large part of COVID We

sold it for 230% more than we
bought it for in two and a half years

worth of growth.

We did learn quite a few
lessons during that initial period.

I mean, when the hamper
business really started to take off,

Rosie literally locked me in
an office and said, you can't be

part of the team.

And that was the first part
for me of learning that actually

you have to run a business,
you can't be in a business.

And that was a really hard
lesson to learn.

Racy's always been better with
the team in terms of the HR side,

the camaraderie, than me anyway.

I've always been better at
strategy, so we started to learn

some of those lessons.

We were very fortunate.

The CO packer we had for the
hampers was incredibly good at Amazon.

They were really good Amazon.

We learned a lot from them.

Sadly, the downside of that
was whilst we were going through

all this, we then had a
lawsuit taken out against us for

trademarking against our brand.

It was a big German company
that was multinational and they didn't

want us to register our stuff
in the same domain as them, effectively,

so that was thrown into the mix.

We did manage to sell the cafe
in October.

We managed to find a unit, a
brand new ecobuilt unit.

Fortunately, thank our lucky
stars, due to Covid, there was this

gorgeous new estate that had
been built and they couldn't finish

it because they couldn't get
the ironworks in.

So either the businesses went
under during COVID or they rebought

somewhere else and all these
amazing units became available.

So we moved into a unit that
was far nicer than our house.

It was literally, it was air
source, heat pumps, super eco, right

in the middle of the greenery
of the forest.

It's beautiful.

We're still there now.

So that moved.

We managed to move accountants
at the same time and everything largely

we just about managed to
recover, I think by the October November

after we sold the cafe and it
was all starting to kind of just

line up into place.

We had to stay on board for
three months after we sold it.

That was the deal that it
couldn't fall through within three

months afterwards.

I found that really hard, I
think Rosie was freed up at that

point, but largely they wanted
to use me for the business knowledge

and for how the team was
managed and to keep things on board,

hand over all the recipes that
we created because everything was

cooked from scratch.

That for me was incredibly, I
felt incredibly trapped and had several

panic attacks during that period.

Coming up to Christmas, we got
to the December and I'd slowly be

getting worse, I think whilst
we'd be coming out of the sale.

Like everything by all
accounts looked better at that point,

but my health, I think I'd
felt like I was in the ring for the

whole of the nine months and
now I'd taken off the gloves and

I was like, I'm free but I'm
still, still stuck to this three

month deal.

And as we almost got to the
end of it, my health just got more

and more worse.

Mental health, Yeah, I was
having panic attacks, literally would

just be in stages where I'd be
like almost paralyzed, couldn't breathe,

just be just kind of collapsed
in the stockroom and everything else

around me was starting to get
better and, and we were due to go

out for our Christmas social,
business was doing really well again

and I just started suffering
with these stomach cramps to the

extent that I couldn't stand up.

And then they rushed me into
ae, spent a night there.

They couldn't work out what
was wrong with me so they just sent

me home in the end.

Got home about midnight and we
went to bed.

Woke up the next morning, felt
kind of okay.

They'd given me some
medication to kind of numb the pain.

Rosie had started to feel
unwell at that.

Yeah, I've been feeling off
color for like a couple of weeks

and just thought, well, maybe
there's something going around that

maybe like if I diagnose
myself, it might be what you've got

too.

So we, I just thought, well,
you know what, I need to make sure

I'm in good health.

We're due to start ivf.

So this is December at this
point and we lost the entire 11 previous

months.

So everything was now hinging
on this last month to make sure that

you're well to get pregnant
from the last cycle of IVF that was

possible.

So I was due to start the
following week and I thought, you

know what, I just feel a bit
off color.

I've still got an old
pregnancy test kicking around just

for a laugh, let's just do it.

And I did it.

And there it was, two lines.

We were pregnant and yeah,
that's how it happened.

And I remember running down
the stairs, like, screaming and you

thinking, what the fuck is
going on?

And I said, I showed you this
little white stick and you're like,

that's not possible.

That's not possible.

So there were a lot of things
that we didn't get to do because

everything was so delayed.

We never got to go to your
brother's wedding in the Maldives.

You know, there were so many
things that we, that we missed out

on and yet suddenly there was
like this tiny, tiny little ray of

hope of like, shit, we need to
keep this baby well.

And suddenly everything, just
everything we had a whole new focus

of, you know, we walked into
Christmas feeling like, right, this

is.

We've got to stabilize this business.

We've got to be strong and
resolute and, and because next year

we're going to have a baby.

We can have a baby.

And suddenly it was just, it
was really real.

When you see that little
message, there's two little white

lines on that, on that little
white stick, you just think, oh,

that's amazing.

Everything just changed.

So you diagnosed yourself.

So you presume John wasn't
pregnant too, at that point?

Unless he's having a fancy predicate.

I didn't do a test.

No, but, but weirdly, you
started to get better.

Like, you had that blip, literally.

We were on our way to our
Christmas do and you were climbing

the walls of the train station
in pain.

And so when we nipped at ae,
there was no way that you could have

gone that year.

So we just abandoned everything.

We planned everything that we
had into the business and we just.

That was probably our December
5th and December 14th was the final

date of our contract that they
could bring me back in at any point

or say, we're not buying this.

So I think from the 14th of
December, I was probably released

mentally and we were at a
stage then where we're like, we're

learning how to run a business
rather than be in the business.

We've now got another central focus.

We sold the capo, we've
switched accounts and we had also

moved from our co packer into
our own, completely in control of

our own business now.

Everything was rebranded as
Eden Treats.

It was beautiful.

It just felt like everything
had slowly started to align and we

went on that year to have the
biggest Christmas we'd ever had with

the business.

It just absolutely skyrocketed
at that point and we came into the

next year and booked our first
holiday in five years.

So in the spring, we finally
got to go away for a couple of, couple

of weeks.

And things just felt like they
were normal.

And we came back and we're
like, we just need to now work out

how to just build on the
success we've had.

That, that period I gave
myself, I was due to have, you know,

a few months off.

You're never really off if
you're a business owner.

But I had, I think, I think
August off, didn't I?

And then September we're now
we have a, the setup with Eaton Treat

side of things is it's the two
of us and we have one other who is

John's sister.

She started to become unwell
with like a phantom situation going

on.

And as her condition kind of
worsened, you know, the C word starts

to be mentioned and starts to
mentioned a lot more and suddenly

she's out of the business a
lot more.

And by November she was largely.

She'd been booked in for a
thyroid cancer operation by November

and they weren't sure whether
she did or didn't.

I'd stepped back in a lot at
that point because she managed our

operations to try and cover things.

Rosie was then backfilling my
space from her maternity leave and

Christmas was getting nearer
and bigger because it had already

got bigger from the year before.

We'd started to do a lot more
within the industry so we were, we

were more well known because
we're now just focusing on one business.

Oddly reminiscent of the year before.

The.

My health started to suffer
again and we got to November and

my weight just suddenly
started to drop really rapidly and

I couldn't keep any food down.

I think within a week and a
half I'd lost almost two stone.

So finally the doctors
admitted me to hospital, thought

I was going in for a day case.

I got in, they couldn't find a
vein because I was so dehydrated

and hadn't had to keep any
food down for so long.

And they said, you're not
going home at this point.

Like Christmas is in full swing.

It's our biggest part of the year.

We do sometimes like up to 80%
more than the rest of the year.

During December, November,
Rosie essentially had to manage all

of the business.

A six month old child, I
literally five months old at the

time.

Yeah, I was hospitalized and
couldn't, I could not walk up two

stairs, like not even a set of
stairs at that point.

Going from someone that does
crossfit five, six days a week at

that point and was incredibly
healthy to being able to do nothing.

I couldn't pick up our five
month old daughter and hold her.

I literally was Just like a
skeleton of what I was capable of.

So I was having to manage the
orders, which Kate would have managed

had she been in at that point
from the hospital bed around going

in and out of different procedures.

There was one time I literally
came out and within 10 minutes Rosie

was messaging me saying, I've
got to dispatch all this, all these

orders, what can, what do I do?

And I was like, just give me
10 minutes.

I didn't move from the gown in
the hospital bed and put the orders.

So I was diagnosed with
ulcerative colitis at that point

and they put me on my first
set of medicine.

I was on IV steroids for about
a week, I think at that point.

And then they gave me, I was
on 18 tablets a day.

When I came out, it didn't take.

And within a week I was
getting worse again.

So they sent me back in, back
to square one.

And eventually after three
months, they put me on immune suppressants

which effectively stops part
of my immune system from attacking

itself.

So when it does start
attacking itself, I lose all energy,

can't keep any food down.

It's like having someone take
away all your peripheral vision.

All of your vision just kind
of shuts down to what you can manage.

You can't do anything.

There is no energy within your
body at all.

Almost to get out of bed is
too much effort.

Can't even keep myself warm, literally.

I have to wear like a full
outfit to bed and then a duvet just

to keep warm.

So yeah, within, I think I
didn't leave the house in January

of that year at all.

Just wasn't strong enough to February.

I could just about walk around
five minutes the block outside our

house.

And then by the spring I'd
just about got myself back to doing

part time at work.

And we realized at that point
that we needed to change how we were

running the business.

It needed to be not only that
we were running the business, but

that it was stable without us.

So we really started to make
big changes from that point.

It's a diagnosis that I will
have for life now.

So every eight weeks I have to
go in to have an IV top up of immunosuppressants

to stop it flaring up.

And for the last year it's
been, I haven't had any flare ups

at all, which is great.

So I'm back now to being able
to train and to run the business.

But in that time we have
radically changed things and learned

a huge amount about business,
which I think fortunately for us,

we've been able to share that
with a lot of the other businesses

we work with.

We started a podcast also,
largely because one of the things

we promised when we moved out
to the countryside and our new unit

is that we wouldn't become
separate from the rest of the world.

We became very much our own
kind of entity and I really missed

being connected with the industry.

So we started the podcast to
tell the stories of small brands

at that point.

And we realized that it wasn't
just us that went through these difficulties.

It wasn't us that was just
lonely or found it hard to get advice

or know what to do next or
struggle with scaling growth, business

management, how to make decisions.

And I think at the same time,
I went through four months of coaching

as well and we decided coming
back that we weren't going to be

the same business that we were.

And since then we've radically
changed what we do.

We signed up to Business
Accelerator as well and really started

to take outside advice into
the company company.

And by the end of that year,
we were part of almost every one

of the food judging panels we
were involved in within the industry.

So now we judge for Farm and
Deli, we judge for the Free From

Food Awards, Nourish Awards,
the Great Taste Awards.

We're part of the Plant Based
World show in the UK and hopefully

New York as well.

Soon we managed the Innovation
Panel, well, part of the Innovation

Panel, we're one of the
Dragons for the Dragons Pantry for

Farmer Delhi.

And we now get to do a podcast
where we get to hear the stories

and help advise.

And off the back of that,
we've now also started a new business

which we're hopefully going to
bring public in the next couple of

months.

It's been growing over the
whole time we've already had, which

is where we've very much
enjoyed, just supporting and looking

after small arts and
independents and helping them grow

and share what we have learnt
through this process.

And we now just get the
opportunity to connect them with

other industry experts.

Whether it be people that are
buying within the industry, whether

it be design and packaging,
whether it be wholesalers, retailers,

consultants, you name it,
really, we've grown that network.

Fortunately, we've got about
600, I think, artisans in our network

now and we're bringing that
together in this phenomenal platform

which we're just so privileged
to have, where we get to connect

those two together.

We're finally at the stage
where we have also got the industry

coming on board.

So we've got people like the
Vegetarian Society that offer huge

discounts to Work with us off
their yearly membership, staying

with us enough to cover their
whole membership.

That's how big the discount is.

We've got free stands for them
at places like the International

Food Exhibition.

We get to sit on panels and
then be able to advise backwards

what's going on in the trends
in the industry.

We get to help them towards
judging because we're part of the

audience and it really has.

It's changed a lot for us.

We're now looking at bringing.

We're growing our team, but
growing in a very different way now,

where each of the team members
is empowered to run the business

in the way that they need to
within their section and without

us very much needing to be
there all the time.

And we finally are at a stage
now where that is starting to flourish.

And it's taken us a long time,
well, a good part of 10 years, I

think, to realise these lessons.

And it's still not easy day to day.

And we still fall into the
same traps.

We've been through the marital
difficulties, the coaching, the.

I mean, going through one of
these things would be enough, but

I have the whole bunch and,
you know, I thought there should

be some sort of reward for the
amount of negative prizes that you've

claimed.

But it has been an incredibly
challenging last five years.

And there.

And there's a lot of what we haven't.

We haven't, you know, we
haven't got peace about, especially

things which to do with the cafe.

It's still.

It sounds so pathetic.

It was a cafe, but it wasn't.

It was so much more than that.

It was.

I wanted it to be.

If.

If the Ivy had a baby, it
would look like that.

And that's what we created and
that's what people said when they

came in.

It was just like flipping it.

This is amazing.

Yeah, it really was.

It was something incredible
that we poured our heart and soul

into.

Okay.

I mean, it's been, honestly,
an incredible, incredible to hear

your story and.

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