Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
This podcast offers business solutions to help listeners develop and implement action plans for lean process improvement and implement continuous improvement projects, cost reductions, product quality enhancements, and process effectiveness improvement. Listeners come from many industries in both manufacturing and office applications.
Patrick Adams 0:00
Hello and welcome to this episode of the lean solutions podcast. My name is Patrick Adams, and I am joined by one of our other amazing hosts, Catherine McDonald. Hey, Catherine, how you doing? I'm good, Patrick. How are you? I'm doing great. I'm excited for this episode. We're going to talk about something a little bit different. We're going to get into science, which I think I may have failed in high school, but hopefully, hopefully I'll be able to hang with the conversation today.
CATHERINE MCDONALD 0:28
Yeah, different kind of science, Patrick, you'll be okay.
Patrick Adams 0:32
I appreciate that. Well, for the past 13 years, our guest, Tina ginaldo, has educated future health professionals about how to work on teams through interprofessional education. Tina is an expert who teaches and guides members of health teams to improve the quality of care they receive or provide through an intra, inter professional approach. So welcome to the show, Tina,
Tina Patel Gunaldo 0:57
thanks for having me. You said that quite well. Interprofessional collaboration is a very long term.
Patrick Adams 1:04
It is. Interprofessional is almost like a little bit of a tongue twister, kind of hard to get out there, but we'll talk, I'm sure we'll talk a little bit more about that and what it means, and you know, all the science behind it, so but we're excited to have you on the show. This is your first time on the Lean solutions podcast, and we're just excited for our listeners to get some value from from the conversation.
Tina Patel Gunaldo 1:28
Yeah, thanks for having me. A matter of fact, I listen to the podcast because interprofessional collaboration is a tool, and it's a framework, just like lean is, and if you can actually combine the two or find where they have overlaps, right, or when they're distinct, but you're the way you lead, the way you manage, becomes very powerful when you can grab what you like from different frameworks. Or thanks for actually having the podcast. I appreciate it, and I've learned so much
CATHERINE MCDONALD 1:55
that's great. Yeah, and Tina, I know we've had these conversations over and back on LinkedIn as well, about the links between our work, even though the language is not the same, the links between between what we do and, yeah, we're going to have to start using some acronyms or something, because there's a lot of long words. And also, I was, I was just looking at your bio earlier, and I know Patrick read out a little bit about what you do and focused on really highlighting the work that you do, but I would love if you could let everybody know about how you got into this kind of work. So tell us about your background, and tell us a little bit about what you're currently involved in as well, because you are involved in a lot. So I leave that to you, Tina,
Tina Patel Gunaldo 2:35
okay, and I will try to be very short when I say this. So I am a physical therapist by training, and to have always been in the healthcare industry, came in to the industry as a physical therapist, went into academia for 18 years, and just recently, last year, re entered the healthcare delivery system. And so it was actually during my time in academia where I was introduced to that term that Patrick was saying before inter professional education, or I will call it IPE, and that's where we actually take all of our students from various programs together, and we educate them in a collaborative way. So generally speaking, if you come into any type of healthcare academic arena, medical students will learn on their own. Dental students will learn on their own. Nursing Students will learn on their own. And we know that's not the best for our customers or our patients, right, and how we bring value to them. So actually, interprofessional education is how we educate and train future health care professionals on how to best collaborate. So I was introduced during academia to that concept, and in order to have interprofessional collaboration, or interprofessional collaborative practice, that acronym is, I see IPCP interprofessional collaborative practice, but you need interprofessional education as your foundation and training in order to know how to collaboratively practice. So spent 810, years in a healthcare delivery system, 18 years in academia, and then now re entered last year into the healthcare delivery system again, but now, instead of formally training healthcare professionals about how to interprofessionally collaborate, we actually do the work. And when I say do the work, it's really kind of how I think we've connected over time Catherine through team science. And so I will mention that a lot is that we're integrating the science of teamwork and collaboration into how we interprofessionally collaborate, so I'll leave it there, and I hope that was enough for right now.
Patrick Adams 4:46
Yes, and I love your use of acronyms. It's just like when I was in the military, everything has an acronym. It's an easy way to remember it, right? Yes. So I'm glad you left at team science, because I mentioned that science. Science was not my strong suit back in my younger years, but I'm hoping that I can can hang in and stick with this conversation so team science. What is team science, and why is it so critical in healthcare and in research today? What you know based on your background. Why would you say that that's such an important concept?
Tina Patel Gunaldo 5:24
Okay, so I think you know science is this is not rocket science. That's what I always like to say, team science is not rocket science. So you don't have to be a physics major, or like chemistry, or even like yeah, or even like Biological Sciences. But what you need to appreciate is that what we all do in terms of our everyday interactions and how we get the results that we do is based upon what type of evidence have we integrated into our workflows, into our processes, etc. Maybe some of that information or that evidence has been pulled from quality improvement cycles. But some of that information has also, that has been pulled into quality improvement cycles, has also been pulled in through the research or the science. And so I think we've all know the scientific method. We've all had to develop some type of research question that might have been in secondary school, but we understand that concept. So it's the same thing with teamwork and collaboration and communication. And I say all those terms because most people will refer to those activities related to collaboration and communication as soft skills. And I think we've heard it enough. Those who are passionate about it, all of those terms are not soft by any means. They could be considered very difficult in nature, right to implement, but we can learn about them. We can improve in our knowledge. We can improve in our behaviors, about them, our attitudes. And then we can also take that knowledge and learn how to integrate it. So I'll go back to team science. It is the study of how we best implement communication, collaboration, teamwork, roles and responsibilities, and there is a science behind that. Now, when you look into the literature, I'll just geek out for one second, because I do have my PhD. So in terms of team science, how you will mostly see it referred to when you read journals or when you read reports, will be related to research. Patrick and you said that, but they are talking about what supports do research teams need in order to best collaborate, best communicate, not just within a single profession, but across professions, not only within a single organization, but across organizations and communities, and making sure that the customer, or in this case, in the Healthcare Industry, the patient or the client or the community is involved in that team. And so we need support at the individual level. We need support at that department level, at the organization level, but then also at that community level, where legislation might be supportive, right or just rules and regulations might be important as well, and how we collaborate together to determine what's the best practice to teamwork, communication, etc. I hope that was helpful.
Patrick Adams 8:35
Very helpful. Yes, okay, definitely.
CATHERINE MCDONALD 8:37
There's a lot to digest there, a lot and your explanation of team science really good. And then you brought in the concept of inter professional collaboration in there as well. And so am I hearing you right when you say, really, it's how we basically communicate and collaborate. And you said, across different professions, across even different organizations, across different communities. So it's this is not just within the one place, the one location, and it's not in the same department. You're talking about how we bring people together from different areas to work on progress, continuous improvement projects, all these things. Yeah, correct. Okay, so how new is this, Tina? Because I suppose growing up, we would have just heard the term teamwork, we wouldn't have been so familiar with the term interprofessional collaboration. So how is it what you're talking about so different to what we would have heard about years ago in terms of teamwork?
Tina Patel Gunaldo 9:35
I think when we heard about teamwork years ago, it was really within your team, and the team was probably most defined by your department, right, or your division, if you're thinking about a work setting. So let's just start there, and so you can see it within a healthcare industry. When you go to a health systems website, they're they're going to have, here's the Respiratory Therapy department, or here's the phone number, here's the phone number to the emergency department. Here's the phone number to financial services, right? And so when we think about teams, generally speaking, it was within a department or within a siloed area. That does not mean within that department. You could not have had multiple professions, but more than likely, you were looking for similar professions to hire. And so when you think about interprofessional collaboration, it's intentional. It has to be more than two professions sitting at the table and specifically related to healthcare, because I think it might be different in other industries. When we think about a physician, there are orthopedic surgeons, there are neurologists, there they are cardiologists. We are not talking about the collaboration within a profession. We're talking about that collaboration across. So when I think about engineering, I think about mechanical engineers, industrial engineers, they're within a single profession, and I think they are trained significantly different in terms of healthcare versus, you know, engineering. But I would say even if you're thinking about interprofessional collaboration in management or engineering, you you want to go outside of that department or that scope to really call it interprofessional collaboration, and to value what that means in terms of the fundamental competencies that are defined within interprofessional collaboration. So I'll just say those four, just so we know it's roles and responsibilities, it's communication, it's teams and teamwork and values and ethics. So those are very broad categories, but underneath those four, there's very specific behavioral competencies that will guide the work that you do.
Patrick Adams 11:46
I think, I think I may have experienced this, but I want to, I want to, I want to verify that with you. Tina, so I was over in Kazakhstan a couple months ago, and I went to, I work with a construction company. And this particular construction company, they have, you know, superintendents Foreman that are doing the build. And now, this particular site that I went to was a reconstruction of a hospital. And the the really cool thing that I that I experienced when I was there, they showed me a video that was that they put together of the foreman and the site manager and everyone meeting with the doctors. And I thought, wow, this is amazing. Like, I have never seen something like this, where it's a construction project and that the project manager and the foreman are meeting with the doctors to go, Okay, before we start this project, like, what are the things that we need to do in order to allow you guys to continue to serve the community and that we don't become a distraction or cause any issues for anyone that may need medical assistance or medical help while the construction project is going on, and they sat down at a table and had this conversation. Now I know that's not within a silo. It's like two separate entities. Does that still fall within the team science and the interprofessional category?
Tina Patel Gunaldo 13:17
It absolutely does, and so interprofessional collaboration is that's a perfect example, Patrick. And then I will say this, so you can apply the science of teamwork or collaboration within a single profession, absolutely any team. If we're all made up of a team of all managers at a certain level and a particular organization, we can still apply the principles of team science. So how to best collaborate? Those will look slightly different if you're looking at interprofessional collaboration or integrating it within interprofessional collaborative practice,
Patrick Adams 13:52
okay, well and during that. So during those, those conversations, I was asking them, you know, you know, what went well? What didn't go so well during this whole thing? And they were explaining to me some of the struggles and the challenges that they had with that, and I'm curious to hear from you, like, what, what are some of the biggest barriers that you see with, you know, this type of collaboration, or in, you know, in the healthcare environment, with with this, what barriers, what challenges come up?
Tina Patel Gunaldo 14:23
Okay, so I'll, I'll start with two that come to my mind, because it's always seems to be a challenge. So one, within healthcare, there has been this traditional hierarchical system to where physicians sit at the top of the hierarchy, and then after that, maybe everyone else kind of falls below that, right, if you're thinking about something like an organizational chart, so there is no, there is nothing wrong with a hierarchy within an organizational chart, because that could help provide us best communication practices, right, of being able to communicate our concerns or to communicate ideas. But when you think about how just a profession, regardless. List of an organizational chart is seen as a single profession that drives the rest of healthcare now, that can be a problem, and that can be a problem over time, because more healthcare professions. And I should say, let me switch back. If I really want to be more inclusive, I would say more health professions, because we have biomedical researchers and we have public health professionals who might not consider themselves in the health care delivery model, because they might not be in front of the patient or the client that they're serving. So health professionals have increased their autonomy, whether that's through a degree. So it might have been associate's degree. It might have been a bad baccalaureate degree, a master's degree. Now it might be a clinical doctorate or a PhD. So there's some hierarchy within degrees, the levels of level of degrees, and so that's a huge challenge, many times, with insurance companies, other people, such as myself, like a physical therapist, might not be able to engage in my role to help others optimize their movement or function, because I'm waiting for a physician to write an order, and then that physician has and that's required from an insurance company in order for my patient to be able to receive that service with underneath the constraints of any type of insurance plan. So I would say this traditional hierarchy of one profession sitting at the top of the others is a huge challenge, and it is a barrier to what we do. The second one, I would say, is scheduling, and so most of the time when you think about teamwork and communication. You think about I bet you if we googled it, now, actually, we would put in their teamwork. You would see these images of people synchronously collaborating, whether that's in the same physical space or virtual space. But what we all have to realize is that a part of that science of teaming is learning how to asynchronously communicate. Right, and asynchronously collaborate. And so I would say the two biggest challenges are hierarchy and then how we vision collaboration, okay?
Patrick Adams 17:17
And can you just explain asynchronous, just just for anyone listening that may not like. What do you mean by that when you when you use that word?
Tina Patel Gunaldo 17:25
So asynchronous collaboration, so we're here collectively together on this podcast, but in order to get to this podcast, I had to asynchronously communicate with the podcast manager, and then had conversations as well with Catherine, in order to come here today at a particular time, right, in order to think about the topic that we were going to have a discussion about, so Asynchronous means that it's not happening in real time,
Patrick Adams 17:52
perfect.
CATHERINE MCDONALD 17:54
It's so interesting because you're talking about healthcare systems, and I'm trying to think of organizations where I see this working really well, or where it even does happen because outside of healthcare, you know, they're not every organization works to that level, but I'm thinking of one example, I think, from last year. So I work with a sports club. And within this sports club, the guest, the community of members wanted to do up. They wanted to improve. They wanted to renovate, like the house, the club house, inside. And I was just thinking to myself, as you were saying, the hierarchy gets in the way. I think the reason this worked so well, and the reason it actually got done, and got done pretty quickly into a to a good standard, was because it's largely a flat, A flat organization. You know, it's voluntary. The members all work together. So you've got a guy who does concrete come in and did the outside of the clubhouse. You've got a guy, a member who's an electrician doing the wiring inside. You've got someone who's interior decorator putting the touches on the hall inside. And all these people were coming together from different areas and different works of life, and they made it work. And I had another question leading on from that. So you mentioned the barriers of hierarchy and scheduling. What about the barriers of, I think you mentioned the word there with vision and like passion and purpose and all of these things, and then the whole, I guess, aligning people to that, where does leadership come into all of this? Or a shared kind of, yeah, passion for the work,
Tina Patel Gunaldo 19:30
so that okay, so that there's a couple of questions in there, or how I perceive that. So one is having a shared goal, having a shared vision, having a shared mental model. So having a shared goal of what you all are working towards, and then having a shared mental model is, how are we going to reach that goal, and are we in agreement with that? So that's one part, and that's one aspect. And then the second aspect you had mentioned was, how does I think it was? Kevin, how does leadership support that? Is that correct? So there's there's many ways, and I think one of them stems to actually what I read today and what you were talking about on your LinkedIn post, which is we have to provide our team members with the time, with the knowledge, with the skills, the training to become leaders themselves, if not in a specific organizational role, in terms of, like a human resources role, but we have to be able to support them and provide them that knowledge of how to be a leader, right within their role. And so I would say, being able to provide that knowledge in that time. So that's how leadership could help support each team member at the individual level, but then at the collective level as well, in terms of and maybe you've seen some of this being highlighted in some other industries, but we only have meetings within our organization from one to two. That's our meeting time, or maybe that's the no meeting time. So setting up policies or procedures that can help teams be supportive, because if every you know, the hardest thing to do when you have more than three or four people on your team is to find a common time of everyone scheduled to meet. So could leadership define team oriented times for team members and say, Hey, here's specific times where you you will gather, there will be no other competing meetings or phone calls or work at this time. So that's one way leadership could support is that a good example?
CATHERINE MCDONALD 21:37
Or, yeah, yeah, like a supportive environment. It's not like you we want leaders. Are not the ones doing the work, but they're shaping the right environment for this kind of communication and collaboration to happen. So, yeah, great example. Yeah, good. Okay, perfect.
Patrick Adams 21:52
And so you and you guys are talking specifically about established leaders. I want to ask a question about the next generation of leaders, or, you know, individuals who are, you know, being coached or trained, or have an aspiration, or maybe a leader has been identified to grow in the company. How does inner interpersonal, interprofessional education play a role in helping to develop the next generation of leaders within an organization?
Tina Patel Gunaldo 22:21
So I will say this in terms of interprofessional education, specifically in healthcare, specifically within the United States, it's quite young. It was in 2010 where the World Health Organization actually provided a definition, which I know is global. And then it was shortly after that where an organization called the Interprofessional Education Collaborative came together in the United States. I believe it was around 2015 so I hope that's correct, around that time. But I mean, if you think about it, is about 10 years young, formally, where they establish those competencies. And so after the establishment of those competencies, also came along where now your educational accreditors said, you know, if you want to be able to provide a degree in dentistry, we are going to require one of your standards is to deliver interprofessional education, so you then were required to have that training. And so since that time, what we've learned, Patrick is that it is the expo. It is the best practice, exposure to teamwork and collaboration. And I say that because I think many of us will say that we when we were put into group projects in second grade, in eighth grade, in high school, in college, some of us did not have very good experiences. Some of us did. And so it is that intentional arrangement I think of educational curriculum, and that's kind of where I'm talking about education, and this is the team science. So you have to, you have to integrate that team science into how you organize that curriculum so that the team that you're trying to develop doesn't stay at the level of a group, and I think that's so important. And so if you can expose your healthcare professional students pre graduate to interprofessional education to where they now consider it as a habit or a thought when they get out into practice, they might, and you can't guarantee it for everyone, but they might have that in a professional lens, which just says, You know what, I need to help out my patient, X, Y and Z. Oh, but you know what they said they were having this other problem that doesn't fit into my role or responsibility, but I do know that it falls into the role and responsibility of another colleague or another profession. Let me see if that patient's willing to go see that other profession. And so then, instead of not, instead of ignoring what the patient said, or just not addressing it, because I don't know who might be able to help them, in that case, I address. That concern in a very timely manner, and make sure that that's something that the patient wants. So interprofessional education supports someone in developing their inter professional identity as compared to just a professional identity, and then allows them to think in a more collaborative way, instead of a siloed way.
CATHERINE MCDONALD 25:20
And of course, all of this benefits the customer, the end user, so much because they don't have to put up with the hassle of being asked questions 10 times from 10 different professionals, even in organizations, you can think of it the same way you've got you know, it frustrates customers when there isn't a point of contact and when there isn't a clear process. Isn't a clear process. So when we break down those silos, and everybody understands their role and responsibilities when it comes to the customer, it's just such a better experience for the customer. So I can relate what you're saying into organizations as well big time, and that whole this whole point of breaking down silos is what we're aiming for here with the inter professional collaboration, which is really, really important. I do think, just I had a question on what skills Tina, do you think are really important for organizations to start developing in their people to achieve this level of interpersonal collaboration you're talking about?
Tina Patel Gunaldo 26:18
I think it goes back to what you said. Okay, so how can you help develop it is but then what are you looking for, from a human resources perspective, in your new team members that you're asking to join your team? You're looking for someone who's attitude or their perceptions to collaboration are open, right? You don't want someone who has a who has who has negative feelings, I think about collaboration, or if they're willing right to learn more, to maybe change their motivation. So that's one thing. I think it starts at asking the right questions when you're hiring someone, and then I think as you then move along, is providing that training. I think we all know from the science and research is that we want these activities to become habits. And in order for things to become habits, you have to be motivated to make the change right, and then you have to have enough of that exposure to where then it becomes second practice. And so I would say a single one and done. Training is not going to get you a collaborative practice team. It is hitting them multiple times, not hitting in a negative way, but it is, you know, exposing them that would be a better word, but exposing them multiple times to the concept of collaboration. And it doesn't have to be all knowledge based. It could be through the formation of a project, and then you have a team manager who's an expert or who understands collaboration and a professional collaboration, and they design those meetings, they design the project, and provide some kind of framework to help support that team move forward. Eventually, you'll have to speak to that team and say, Hey, what were the elements of the project? What were the elements of the meeting that made it so successful? Right? It's almost like debriefing in the sense or briefing, right? So those are things that organizations can do to help support their teams. Provide individual knowledge sessions. That's pretty typical in continuing education, but then after that, really train some team managers to help promote in a professional collaborative practice in the work itself.
CATHERINE MCDONALD 28:27
And you you mentioned at the start. Sorry, Patrick, just No, you're Go ahead. Bring you back to what you said at the start. There's a whole set of competencies that goes with this anyway, which people are trained in. And as you were talking there, I was thinking like, competencies are, you know, knowledge, skills, attitudes, behaviors, values, and even things like values like humility, putting ego aside the ability to listen to other departments and professions. That's going to be huge for all of this. So it's so it's clear that it, this is not a training workshop. This is you, you you build this in and you build it in over time. So, yeah, great. Love that, Tina, sorry, Patrick, you hop in.
Patrick Adams 29:03
No, no. It's a great, it's a great. Lead into my question. Catherine, I was wondering, because Tina, you mentioned, like bringing an expert, or having an expert in the within the team, how does someone become an expert? Like, is it experience over time? Can they? Can they go get a degree is there? Are there workshops, classes like, how do they where do they get this experience to then bring back to their team? That's my first question. Then I have
Tina Patel Gunaldo 29:29
one more follow up. Okay, so there is no official degree. Now, there are PhDs in interprofessional collaboration. It's mostly situated, and I would say there's only probably a handful of those in the United States, and they are situated within a health care or a health professions program. However, though right now, I believe it is through being exposed to interprofessional education, I have to say that does start at the academic level, and then having the desire to, I think, just further your own learning. And when I think about team science, when I first. Entered interprofessional education. I i My thoughts were not quite going towards the science aspect of interprofessional collaboration. It was going more towards roles and responsibilities, communication, values and ethics. But once I started digging more into the research and learning more from fellow peers about this science. I think that's where, to me, it really helped propel like, this full circle embodiment of interprofessional collaborative, collaborative practice, because it does include those four domains, like I said before. So initially, I would say, get involved in interprofessional education, and that can be from different sectors, right, learning from what healthcare is done. And then after that, it will take the individual taking a deeper dive into those aspects that they think are important in the work that they do. I try to deliver that information through LinkedIn. I think that's important to say as wanting to create that vision or that lens, or maybe creating some habits or ideas that people can take back into their workplace, but I don't necessarily call it team science every single day.
Patrick Adams 31:09
Sure, sure. Okay, and then the last question I have, and then we'll kind of wrap up here, but the last question I have is, if you did have an expert that came into your team, or you have someone on your team that you brought into to a meeting, what would the what would be some practical steps that you would see them take to really utilize some of these tools and techniques? Like, what would it look like if I was standing back watching this happen?
Tina Patel Gunaldo 31:39
So I think one of the first things, I think is so important, and it goes back to lean as well principles, is to have a plan and so a team. And if we think about combining frameworks and theories and applications, I think about this very often. When I have a new project that I've been that I've been given, one is, who do I need on the team to do the roles of the team? So if I need an organizer, if I need a communicator, I might the expert of that knowledge could be brought in and out, right? So the first thing I think about is planning who actually needs to be on the team to serve that team role, not necessarily the expert knowledge role. And then I combine it with Dunbar's rule, which says, you know, you have this capacity of getting to know five people in this very trusting, social way. So I try to keep, and then, based upon all the science that I've read, it's anywhere between, you know, three people to 10 people. That's the ideal team size. So then I try to say, Okay, I definitely don't want any more than 10. I try to keep it around six to eight people on my team. So here I am applying the science, which is, I know, Dunbar's rule that says, that talks about what's ideal. And, you know, teams take trust, right? And building that trust and socialization, and you need to allow for that time to happen during the times that you gather. And then I say, what within those six or eight people, what are the roles that I need to help us get through the project? And then I identify the individuals who need to help us in the project, but they don't need to be there for every single meeting or every single gathering. We bring them in and out. We get their expertise, we integrate it, we then bring them back around right for that closed loop communication, we bring them back to the meeting to share how we've integrated what they said to us, so they're still a part of that team, and get their approval before we implement it. So I if I'm thinking at the very kind of beginning of the stages and closed loop ending it with, don't forget the team members that you've intermittently invited to your team so that they get that information on how they actually are impacting that project. So I hope that was kind of Dunbar's role, number of team members, their roles, and then closed loop communication. It's a very small piece, but those are very important pieces.
Patrick Adams 33:55
I think that's great that you that, that you mentioned coming back to the team. Because I do think that that's something that maybe a lot of leaders forget to do. You know, they do a great job at going out and asking questions or involving the team in whatever they're working on, but it's going back to the team and saying, Hey, thanks for your your input. Here's how we were able to use that and the results that came out of that. So I think that's a just a great way to wrap that up at the end. Tina, it's been great to have you on. I know we only have so much time. We obviously this is a an extensive subject that we could probably go on forever, and there's maybe we need to have you back on for a part two that might be good, because I think there's some other areas that we could dive into a little bit deeper, but I appreciate you coming on, and I think there's probably people that maybe you've sparked some interest or have some questions, if they want to reach out to you for any information, what's the best way for them to get a hold of you?
Tina Patel Gunaldo 34:55
I would say the best way to get a hold of me is through messaging me through LinkedIn. I. I do have my own I do work full time for a healthcare system, but I also have my own small kind of side business where I like to increase awareness about interprofessional collaboration. So LinkedIn is one way. Tina ganaldo, G, U, n, a, l, D, O, but then collaborate for health, F, O, r.com. Is my website as well. You can grab my email address from there and email me to ask me any questions. Perfect.
Patrick Adams 35:26
We will drop those links into the show notes. So if anyone's interested to reach out to Tina, go check out the show notes. You can click on the link and get direct connection to Tina and reach out to her with any questions. Well, Tina, it's been great to have you on. Thanks again for being on the show. I feel like it wasn't that difficult of a subject. I appreciate how you broke it down and I was able to stay in the conversation with you guys. Thank you. You did a great job.
CATHERINE MCDONALD 35:55
She's a good teacher. You see, Patrick, good teacher makes all the difference.
Speaker 1 35:58
That's right, exactly. Thank you for having me. I do appreciate it absolutely. Thank.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai