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A board-certified family law attorney, Jaime Davis and her guests provide information and tips for getting through a separation and divorce without destroying family relationships or finances. From marriage therapists and financial planners to private investigators and parenting coordinators, learn how to navigate divorce without destruction.
Jaime - 00:00:05:
Welcome to A Year and a Day. I'm Jaime Davis, board-certified family law attorney at Gailor Hunt. On this show, I talk with lawyers, psychologists, and other experts with the goal of helping you navigate divorce without destruction. In this episode, I'm talking with Karen McMahon about personal transformation through divorce. Karen, the founder of Journey Beyond Divorce, is dedicated to helping men and women navigate the emotional challenges of relationships, breakups, and divorce. Her journey through her own tumultuous divorce led to profound personal transformation and inspired her to support others in achieving a fulfilling life. She is a certified coach from the Institute for Professional Excellence in Coaching and a member of the International Coaching Federation. Thanks for joining me, Karen.
Karen - 00:01:00:
Hi, Jaime. Thanks so much for inviting me.
Jaime - 00:01:02:
So tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do at Journey Beyond Divorce.
Karen - 00:01:09:
Yeah, thanks so much. So I think for so many divorce coaches, we all came through our own divorce. And so mine was many years ago now, but it was. My children were very young, barely in grade school, and it was highly contentious and lasted three and a half years. And I was pretty much a hot mess and did a lot of things wrong until I learned to do them better. And when I emerged, I just I was selling commercial printing and I just thought, well, there has to be something more important for me to do. And I found coaching and coaching is about. Helping people through transitions. And I was also a teenager when my parents divorced. And so I thought I'm kind of uniquely designed to help people through the transition of divorce. And so I started that in 2010. And 14 years later, I have a team of coaches coast to coast. I've pivoted into more of the high conflict and high net, those complex divorces. And, I get to pinch myself and that I get paid for it too, because people say, why would you work with such a. You know, people are at their worst and they usually are. And yet the opportunity to help people go from whatever broken or hot mess that they feel like they are to really being excited and feeling better about themselves and excited about the next chapter of their life, to me, if that's what I leave behind when I leave this earth, then I'll feel like it was a job well done.
Jaime - 00:02:48:
I love to hear you say that. I get asked that a lot too. Why do you work with people going through divorce? And I agree with you. I mean, you truly are helping people and you're helping them through something that really can be a great transformation for them.
Karen - 00:03:04:
You know, they say that when the student is ready, the teacher will come. And we're pretty darn ready when we're at the edge of ourselves and about to lose time with our children, lose finances. The uncertainty of what lies around the bend is so upending and scary. And so you can, I always say divorce is hard. So you can go through the pain and be the same person on the other end, or you can use the pain to fuel the transformation. And be a better version of yourself. And I think for me too, the other thing. I like to say right off the bat is those of us who've been in these high conflict divorces, high conflict being highly contentious, maybe personality disorders, maybe addiction or alcoholism, we usually came from some significant dysfunction ourselves. And then now we're raising our children in our family dysfunction. And so for me, the work that we do invites people to break those generational chains, to teach our children that intimate love can be healthy and good and in the hopes of them doing better and the next generation and next generation doing better. And I feel like that's a key component of what we can do by supporting people to divorce in a healthy way.
Jaime - 00:04:27:
Absolutely. Can you describe the pivotal moments during your own divorce that sparked your personal transformation?
Karen - 00:04:36:
Well, I mean, the first one was when I lunged across the kitchen and wrapped my hands around my husband's neck. And I was just so at the end of myself. And the very next day I called the therapist and said, I am so lost and in so much trouble, I need help. And even though what happened prior to that was all about, you know, what he did as well, that was a pivotal moment for me to realize as many complaints as I may have about that person, I just behaved in a way that is, you know, just terrible. So I went into therapy and then And then I left and things got worse again. And then we tried marriage counseling. So that was another really hopeful moment. But one of the big things was I joined a 12-step program. And when I joined a 12-step program, my dad was an alcoholic. My ex had another substance that he preferred. It really, you know, 12-step programs, whichever one you go through, they talk about keeping your side of the street clean. They have these little sayings like, how important is it? Great little question to ask. They talked about serenity. And I sat there thinking, I have no idea what the definition of that word is. I have no idea what the experience of that word is. And that was a pivotal moment because it helped me see that I was raised in chaos and conflict. I married into chaos and conflict. I'm living in chaos and conflict. I don't know what serenity means. Like I can't define it. And so that was a pivotal moment and really helped me to start. Focusing more on myself and focusing more on What do I want? And it also connected me with God. I mean, I was raised Roman Catholic, but I never really had a relationship. And so in 12 Step, they teach you to have a relationship with your higher power. And that was transformational because it's really hard to go through a complex divorce without any faith. Whatever that faith is, right, that trust, that belief that this is happening for me, that things can be better on the other side, that we can really turn this crisis into something that benefits me and my family. And those were moments for me.
Jaime - 00:07:03:
Yeah, I mean, when you're going through a high conflict, complex divorce, your whole world feels like it's upside down. And just... The amount of turmoil, and truly, you feel like you're lost. You know, I've been through my own divorce as well. And so it's this... Level of fear and anxiety that you really... Can't describe to someone unless they've experienced it themselves. But, you know, everything that you have known is changing and you have to figure out. How you're going to navigate this new reality that you find yourself in.
Karen - 00:07:41:
And when you start looking at, well, what do I bring to the table, right? You could be conflict diverse, right? And so you're just, you want them to read your mind and you're angry that they didn't do what you thought they should, but you didn't vocalize it or you're a people pleaser and you have codependent behaviors. And so you're all angry and bitter and a martyr because you do so much and you don't, like there's so many different things that go on. And if you're not slowing down enough and have a sounding board to understand, and to look at what you're doing, then it's just so easy to blame the other person. And in your position, I'm sure you see so often how tens of thousands of dollars and months, if not years, can go by without resolution because people aren't doing that hard work.
Jaime - 00:08:33:
Yeah, I mean, I think it's really hard for folks to accept. Their accountability in the relationship. I mean, you know, it takes two, right? Like it is the rare case where the separation and divorce is completely one-sided and one spouse did not at least have some role in what was going on.
Karen - 00:08:54:
Absolutely. I think I had one client over all my years where she really didn't know, and her husband was a severe sex addict, and it happened early on. And I was like, all right, I'm thinking this is pretty lopsided, but it is so the exception to the rule because we're adults, we step into these situations and just because we choose to put blinders on doesn't mean that we don't have responsibility.
Jaime - 00:09:21:
Right. I mean, that's actually what I was getting ready to say that just because you are sometimes willfully ignorant to what is going on in your marriage, it doesn't make you guilt-free in the process. I mean, in a lot of these cases, I'm sure there probably were signs that people either didn't pick up on or they chose not to.
Karen - 00:09:43:
And I want to say at this point in the conversation, Jaime, I think it's so important for your listeners to understand there's a very big difference between blame and fault and responsibility. So you may be listening. And if you're in a high conflict situation, you've already been blamed and accused, you know, how many six ways from Sunday. That's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about. Just owning your 100%. Two adults get married, there's 200% responsibility. All we're saying is own your 100%. I know that I came from dysfunction. I know that I did have people pleasing and codependency. And I then learned that I actually had some of my mom's ragefulness. And I wasn't able to control my emotions until I learned how to. But if I didn't take those signs as opportunities to heal and refine myself, I could have made so much more of a hot mess out of my kids, my divorce, my settlement. And so there's such a huge opportunity that, take responsibility with gentle kindness and self-compassion. Take responsibility. Don't beat yourself up. You've probably been beaten up by others, but to own it and to truly be courageous enough. And I think it takes courage to look in the mirror and say, what are my parts? What did I bring to the table?
Jaime - 00:11:10:
Absolutely. So you mentioned you had participated in a 12-step program. With the program and anything else that you did post-divorce, how did that change your outlook on future relationships?
Karen - 00:11:26:
Yeah, I think that for me, my situation was so chaotic that my number one. Priority when I was out of the marriage was helping my children navigate the chaos in the other household. I think a lot of us can feel almost survivor's guilt. Like I was able to divorce and walk away. Actually during 2012, during Hurricane Sandy, I was invited to live with my in-laws for a couple of days and my ex-husband and my kids because, you know, electric was out and things were pretty bad. And it helped me to see what they were living with when they were in the other household. And so for me, my intimate relationship interests were shelved to take care of them. And right, wrong, or indifferent, I don't know. But my feeling was I don't want to invite another partner into my life and into this chaos. I want to navigate this and be there for my kids. And yet, the other part of my answer would be, I realized that I had learned so much and grown so much that I could be a better partner. And so I did end up having one long-term relationship after my divorce. It's funny, you think you've grown so much and then you end up in a new relationship with a new partner and it's like, oh, still some work to be done. And I guess that's probably my mantra in life is, you know, until the day we meet our maker, you know, we have an opportunity to heal and refine and become the best person we can be. And so that's kind of how I raise my kids and how I talk to my clients about going forward.
Jaime - 00:13:19:
Oh, absolutely. I mean, we are all just a work in progress and we all grow and change just depending on whatever we happen to go through in our lives, for sure.
Karen - 00:13:31:
In fact, running my business is, they say that sometimes the greatest self-growth is when you're an entrepreneur and you're running your own business and running right up against your shortcomings. Insecurities and your challenges.
Jaime - 00:13:46:
Oh yeah, it can be quite humbling for sure.
Karen - 00:13:48:
Yes.
Jaime - 00:13:49:
Well, so how do you create healthy friendships after divorce? And why are these friendships important for personal growth?
Karen - 00:13:58:
You know, I think that one of the hardest parts of divorce is that, is that you're not just losing your partner. I had a great relationship with my in-laws, right? So you may be losing a whole family that you really loved and adored. Your friends are going to pick sides or they're going to be uncomfortable and kind of like not be with either of you. And so there's this whole shift that happens on the social front. And your life is different. Your life is very different as a single parent or single individual. And developing those relationships. Rebuilds community. And one of the biggest things I encourage my clients to do is to go on meetup and just meetup is such a great meetup.com is such a great platform for individuals to meet other individuals who just want to get into friendships. Because when your children are young, you usually become friends with your kids, friends, parents, right? And if you have, I have a house of worship. So that's great, cause then whether it's a church or a temple or whatever you meet people, but so many people don't have that. And here you're in middle life. You don't have a partner. You don't have your kids all the time. And it can be very isolating. It can be very lonely. And the value of... Finding ways to connect with people like-minded, right? And so you get to dive into your hobbies and your interests and find like-minded people. And then you continue the journey because I like to say that human beings are like porcupines. You know, we bump up against each other. Our quills kind of poke each other. And you learn. You learn what works for you, who you want to stay away from. You learn what a boundary is. You learn how to communicate more effectively. And so there's not just the joy of having the friendship and the social circle. There's that ongoing interaction with people that really helps us figure out who we are, who we want to be, and how to keep moving in that direction.
Jaime - 00:15:59:
Yeah, I think it can be so hard because so many people get caught up in that role of being the wife or being the husband. And maybe all of their social circle is made up of couples' friends. And so then you go through that separation and you're right. Folks either choose sides or they're uncomfortable and they don't want to hang out with either one of you. It's almost like they think, oh my gosh, these folks got divorced. We're going to get divorced too if we hang out with them. And so yeah, you do find yourself in this weird spot of where are my people? Who can I hang out with? Who can I go do the things that I enjoy doing with? And it does take some work. You have to put yourself out there. And I think meetups is a great idea for folks to find like-minded individuals to hang out with.
Karen - 00:16:48:
And I think the other thing is mindset. So, you know, we coach a journey beyond divorce. We coach men and women. And I think you'll run into some people where they just want to jump into the next relationship. And, you know, That's fine. As long as you're intentional about what you're doing. So if you've been in a dead marriage and you just want to go out and have some sex and, you know, feel your woman or your man again, like that, as long as you know what you're doing. The danger, of course, is when you're using it to soothe or to fill that vacancy. And then typically, if you haven't done. The healing and refining work, you're going to go out and you're going to find the same man or woman with a different face, a different body, and you're going to rinse and repeat. And then you're going to say, geez, why does this keep happening to me? As if you weren't a participant in it. And so we always encourage, like, if you need to go out and play, just know that you're playing. But if you're looking for an intimate relationship, like your next romantic relationship before you have really understood your role and work through your hurt, your bitterness, your pain, it's a very dangerous path. And I was just talking to somebody about the stats that first marriages are 50%, second marriages, a divorce rate is 67%, and third marriages is 73%. So these are the people who aren't taking the time to actually do that work so that they find a healthy and long lasting. So there's nothing wrong with wanting love, but sometimes looking for the friendship first and working on that before you go back into the dating world is really valuable too. You find out who you are and what you like. And so you're your own individual the next time you connect with someone.
Jaime - 00:18:45:
Well, and you need to be really careful too, I think, about not getting too involved in dating before your underlying issues have been resolved. Because most likely your new partner is not going to want to be a witness in your custody case, and you're probably not going to want to drag them into that. And so if you want something that is going to withstand time and maybe be a forever partner, you really need to make sure that you have the first separation and divorce taken care of first before you jump right back into that.
Karen - 00:19:14:
Yeah, I concur completely.
Jaime - 00:19:17:
So something interesting that you mentioned before we started recording was that C-suite women are divorcing at a higher rate. What trends have you seen and why do you think that is?
Karen - 00:19:31:
There was a report that came out in 2020 that said, it was so interesting. It said C-suite women are. I think it's 30% more in the first, within the first three years of the promotion, there's 30% more likely to divorce than their male counterparts. And so if we look at it, there's a couple of things I've seen in my clients, C-suite women. One is Often my C-suite clients were also taking care of the kids and doing a lot of the stuff at home. And so there wasn't a balance, right? And so their partner wasn't necessarily what the stay-at-home mom is for the C-suite dads. So what does that do? That engenders bitterness, frustration, exhausting. There's no sex anymore. We're fighting over money. So all of these things happen. And I think the other thing on the flip side is it's really hard when you have that level of commitment to be as involved as a mom, as your average, just your average working mom. Forget about the stay-at-home mom. And so there's a tension that is created in the household that's different because the traditional roles are flipped. And so a number of my C-suite women. And their spouses had a hard time with their
Jaime - 00:20:59:
power, had a
Karen - 00:20:59:
hard time with them not being around as much. It was just, it was where it seems more it's been the way, the traditional way with the stay-at-home mom. There's been a lot of tension when there's been a stay-at-home dad.
Jaime - 00:21:14:
That's really interesting. And I guess, too, a lot of it probably goes back, you know, to circle back around to something we talked about earlier about how the spouses themselves were raised. I mean, I would be curious to know if, you know, I would say usually we're talking about the male in the relationship. If the C-suite partner is female, if the male partner was raised by a stay-at-home dad or perhaps in a house where the mom had the bigger job, for lack of a better term, if that would make a difference in the divorce rate.
Karen - 00:21:47:
And I would imagine, right, because this is more and more the norm now, that you're going to have many less husbands who were raised by, you know, mom being out in the world and being the primary moneymaker. And so I do think that that's part of the tension that comes up. And I think the power dynamic is a big thing. And for a number of the men who I've spoken to, just... It's hard. It's hard on the ego. It's hard on there's this feeling of not good enough or embarrassment. And it all depends on where they are too, right? So if you love what you do and your wife just makes more and your home more, it could be beautiful. And those marriages absolutely exist. So we're really talking about where that power imbalance creates tension and a rift. And a number of the women that I worked with, it was just Um, Dad wasn't like the stay-at-home parent. So mom was doing kind of everything. And I think the pressure of that, right? The pressure of being at work. And then if your marriage isn't going well, right, you have your women will always say, you know, I have to work twice as hard to get the same position. Now you have to put on your game face. And even though things aren't good at home, you have to you can't show that there is all this like you have to show that you're at the top of your game. You've got all these people who report to you. And it just creates this this. This cocktail ready to explode because of the amount of pressure on that C-suite woman. And then you add in, now you're the one who's going to have to most likely pay alimony. And you're the one who might be more worried about the custody and how that's going to work out because of your commitments or your travel or the hours that you work. And so it really does I think there are a lot of unique complexities that C-suite women face.
Jaime - 00:23:52:
Do you think this same issue plays itself out with same-sex couples, or do you think it's just with heterosexual couples?
Karen - 00:23:59:
That's a really interesting question. I don't have enough experience. The same-sex couples that I coached with. We're either more equal or there aren't children involved. I think when there aren't children involved, it's also very different because it's kind of easy to go, okay, you know, we'll split things up. You go your way. I go my way. I think when the children, there are children, it becomes all more contentious.
Jaime - 00:24:25:
Yeah, that's a good point.
Karen - 00:24:27:
Yeah. And I think that, so you're dealing, the C-suite woman is also, she's dealing with social judgment or at least internal judgment where she thinks there's social judgment. Like, how can I be? I've had a whole panel of women talk about like, yeah, I'm all that at work, but then I feel so guilty and like, I don't have enough time with my kids and they're always asking for, my spouse is always asking for. And so I think that what is understandable and expected for men that there's still a double standard, even for those who break through the glass ceiling, there's a little bit of a double standard. Then you add divorce and it can get very, very prickly.
Jaime - 00:25:12:
Why do you think setting boundaries is crucial during and after a divorce? And how can a person start to establish those if they have not been very good at boundary setting before?
Karen - 00:25:25:
Yeah, I think that so many of us... Are boundary oblivious people marrying boundary oblivious people. And then raising boundary-oblivious children. So all of that is, so at the end of the day, what's a boundary? A boundary is a way to take responsibility first and foremost. People don't actually start here, but I'm going to start here. A boundary is first and foremost to take responsibility for yourself. What you feel and what you do and what you say is your responsibility, regardless of what the other person said or did. So that's where boundaries begin. Boundaries begin with, I am fully and completely responsible for my feelings, for my words and for my actions. And then from that point, I have, I have my needs. I have my need for personal space. I have my need to not be spoken to badly. I have my need to have, have respect in a relationship. And so every healthy relationship needs healthy boundaries. Without boundaries, it's like the wild west. And so there can be disrespect, there could be nasty words, there could be, and disrespect could be like just not showing up or walking in on or looking at somebody's email or, you know, opening somebody's bag and looking in at whatever it is. When you're going through a divorce, it's such a great opportunity to learn your own internal boundaries and then to be able to not be the victim of what the other person is doing. And when you have boundaries, you never have to be the victim because you can say, this is my boundary. You know, if you're going to continue to speak to me that way. We're going to have to stop the conversation now, or I'm going to hang up the phone. If you're going to do that thing that's disrespectful, I'm not going to engage with you. And I think with boundaries, Jaime, what I've learned, I have a five-day boundary bootcamp. And one of the most fascinating things is people think that the way they uphold a boundary is to say it over and over again, or louder, or meaner, or with more emotional energy behind it. And the beauty of boundaries is whoever is setting it is the person who's 100% responsible for upholding it and respecting it. So you don't ever need the other person to change their behavior. Great if they do. Wonderful if they do. But if they don't, and we could take your child, for instance, if you tell your child to do something and they don't do it, how many parents just say it louder and over and over again? It's like, okay, how about there, you know, that there's a carrot or a stick here. There's another way of doing it so that if you're not going to abide by the boundary, I am going to change my behavior in a way that you're going to find displeasing. And therefore, you're going to, you still may not uphold it, but I'm protecting my boundary. And I think that that's the key is people to understand that the beauty of boundaries is when you learn the skill of upholding your boundaries. You no longer need anything from the other person. And it allows you to be in any relationship you want, no matter how difficult or eccentric or whatever the other person is, because you now have a way of keeping yourself comfortable and safe.
Jaime - 00:28:51:
Yeah, boundaries are so important for folks going through a separation. And I think part of that is because so many boundaries get crossed as the marriage is ending and folks are gathering their evidence of whatever misbehavior the other person has been partaking in. And always, as I'm watching folks go through this transformation throughout my representation of them and the emails back and forth, because I read a lot of emails between divorcing spouses, you know, they can be nasty and they're nasty to one another. And then finally, my client will get it. And I just, I can tell in her responses because then she is not engaging in the conflict with the other spouse. She is just responding to the actual issues that need to be responded to. And then she's done. I mean, like you said, ideally, if you could change their behavior or get them to change their behavior, great. That's the icing on the cake. But at the end of the day... You can always change your reaction to the behavior. And it's like, that's when that light bulb goes off. And I'm just always so happy. When I see my clients communicating in that way, that they are not engaging in the back and forth with the spouse that they're divorcing.
Karen - 00:30:06:
One of the best boundaries... Especially for communication, comes from Bill Eddy. You know, the king of high conflict. That's the High Conflict Institute. And it's BIF,F Brief, Informative, Firm, and Friendly. Brief, please don't send a page or two. Informative, just the facts. Just not your opinions, just the facts. Firm, not wishy-washy. And friendly, or at least neutral if you can't be friendly. And what that does... It boundaries you just like that. And so, so I'm always saying to my clients, you know, you may get an email inviting you to six fights, but that doesn't mean you have to accept the invitation. You can just write back and say, actually, Johnny will be available at 3:30 tomorrow. I'll expect to see you then. And that can be the, that could be the extent of it. You don't have to, because I think the other thing that happens, Jaime, is in the high conflict situations, it's like a deflect and defend dance. Right. And so you're, my clients are always on the defensive. And when I asked them like, what, How would you respond to that without defending? Typically, they literally look at me like a deer in headlights, like I have nothing. I do not know how to respond to that accusation without defending myself. And so they get into a dance as opposed to, you know, I noticed you have a lot of opinions about what I did and I'm feeling a hostile tone. The fact of the matter is like there's such an easy way to not defend. And when you're defensive, then you're triggered. You're feeling like a victim. And those boundaries just start falling off.
Jaime - 00:31:53:
Right. It's like not necessarily that you need to defend yourself, but, you know, in some cases you do need to set the record straight. Right. So if they're, you know, if you're still involved in some sort of litigation and they're saying lots of stuff in their communications to you that is simply not true, you can with without emotion and without being hostile, you can just correct that record and set the facts straight.
Karen - 00:32:16:
Absolutely.
Jaime - 00:32:17:
So what advice do you have for individuals struggling to let go of things they can't control in their relationships?
Karen - 00:32:25:
That's such a big one, isn't it? And it's where people can feel the most like a victim and disempowered because you're trying to control your attorney. You're trying to control the court system. You're trying to control your soon to be ex, which that's the one that we can bring the most humor around. Right. So it's like, how many years were you married? How has that worked for you the last 26 years? You know, and I do I try to bring humor because if we can laugh about it, it's like I think that ship has sailed. And so if you're trying to change your soon-to-be ex, the ship has sailed or you wouldn't be listening to this podcast and heading through divorce. And so there's a different way, right? And so I think that the key I say to people is, what is it that you need and how else do you get there without their participation? Again, because I live largely in the high conflict where, you know, we're talking about parallel parenting. Even, you don't have control. You don't have control. You can state what you would like, but once it's clear that you guys are going to be parallel, that there's not going to be that collaboration and that cooperation, and sometimes that could just take one person saying no, then if you keep trying to control them, that's so much energy and frustration going to, it's like banging your head against a wall, whereas you can determine what you're going to do. And what I typically encourage people when it comes to the parenting piece, Jaime, is, stop telling your ex what he or she should do and start talking to your children about the ramifications of their behavior. So I had a son who would stay up until two o'clock in the morning at dad's playing video games because he could, I could call dad and say, you shouldn't let him do that. And that's not good. I could talk to the wall too, or I could sit down with my son and say, you know, let's look at your grades. Let's look at what's happening and help him start to make good decisions because I actually have some control there, some authority there. I have none with dad anymore. And so I think that part of it is determining what's your relationship with your ex. If it's good and you can collaborate, great. But when you find yourself trying to control and the other person's not participating, you have to find another way. You have to let that go, or it's only going to cause you and the already fractured relationship more harm.
Jaime - 00:35:02:
Yeah, and with a lot of that stuff too, unless it's a true health and safety issue for the children, you really just need to pick your battles and come to the realization, okay, is it gonna be detrimental to my child to have junk food two nights a week at dad's or is that something I can let go and just make sure that I'm feeding my child really healthy food when he's with me?
Karen - 00:35:27:
Hugely. Exactly. And I've seen so many people just... Continue with the dance. And it's like that you're supposed to leave the dance floor when you got divorced. You know, like that's not serving you. It didn't work then, it's not working now, it's not serving anybody. And letting it go whenever you can let it go. And also I would strongly encourage, don't be calling your attorney and going back to court and every little thing. Like, first of all, there's one of the things I like to say to people is once you finally put all this time and energy and money into the settlement, there are no settlement police walking around after you're divorced. You know, it's like, everyone's like, I have the settlement now, he or she absolutely has to. It's like, no, you have to rehire your attorney, you have to go back to court. So back to picking and choosing your battles. There are some things that are, I, at one point I really needed to think long and hard about whether I was going to go back and change the custody to protect my kids. So sometimes you have to, but I have seen so many times where you don't. And so what you do is you end up living in. An extended period of contention. You're spending money. Your attention isn't on your kids because now your attention is back in the battle. And there's just so many negatives. So it really, really needs to be worthwhile to go back into that fight.
Jaime - 00:36:53:
Yeah, I think that is a great point and something that people don't often think about. And at least in North Carolina where I practice, judges tend to lean toward 50-50 custody schedules provided both parents are fit and proper folks to have equal custody of kids. And so to change from a 50-50 type schedule, it takes a lot. That's a really high bar. I mean, just a few things that the other parent did that you may not agree with is probably not going to be enough to sway that needle. And especially once there's already a custody order in place. I mean. To change custody, you have to show a substantial change of circumstances affecting the welfare of the children. So even if there has been a change, if you can't show some impact on the child, that's still not going to get you there either.
Karen - 00:37:45:
And I think there's, look, bad parenting is not illegal.
Jaime - 00:37:49:
Right.
Karen - 00:37:51:
Right. And so, I mean, we could between you and I, we could probably run through a dozen situations right off the top of your head. You know, the spouse who invites their new girlfriend or guy friend over with young kids in the house and and maybe even to spend the night or maybe even to start moving in. And you're you're. You're shocked and devastated that your kids are exposed to this and they shouldn't be. It's bad parenting. You know, there's so many things where... You can communicate, you can ask. In a case like that, if someone went back to court in North Carolina, would they win more custody?
Jaime - 00:38:32:
I think it depends. I think it depends a lot on the parent's judgment and who they're having the child around. I mean, I think we would be having a different conversation if the new boyfriend or girlfriend was a sex offender, right? Like, obviously, that's going to be a whole different ballgame versus just, you know, an ordinary relationship.
Karen - 00:38:52:
Yeah. Or they always show up late or they don't show up at all for the kids or, you know, you enrolled your child who's a brilliant soccer player and travel soccer and they won't take them to any of the, like, there's so many things that can be so frustrating where your child could come to you and be like, mommy, daddy, please help me with the other parent. And sometimes you just can't. And that's really, really hard. And that's when I see people just like, I'm calling my attorney, I'm going back to court, but it's, it's, it's. It's not great parenting. It's not enough to win a battle.
Jaime - 00:39:34:
I mean, one way that we do try to fix those situations here is that in some cases, high conflict cases, a parenting coordinator can be appointed who can make the decisions if mom and dad can't agree on what the thing is, whether or not the kid should participate in a certain extracurricular activity, whether or not a child needs therapy, all sorts of things. And, you know, once that parenting coordinator issues a directive, it is binding like a court order. And so that can help get folks in line pretty quick.
Karen - 00:40:08:
And I think we used to have something much more ironclad like that in New York, and it's not anymore. And I know it varies so much from state to state. So everybody can hire a parent coordinator and a parent coordinator. And I know that's a position that you hold as well, right? It's like the right parent coordinator could be really, really helpful. But there's also a lot of states where it's not like their decision rules the day either.
Jaime - 00:40:36:
Right. Yeah. It really just does depend on where you are.
Karen - 00:40:40:
Yeah, yeah.
Jaime - 00:40:42:
Well, if you could only give one piece of advice to someone going through a divorce, what would it be?
Karen - 00:40:49:
Only one. Well, if you have children, I would say... Make every decision a child-centric decision and do everything you can. To protect that child or those children from feeling like they're being fought over. So child-centric would be the first and most important thing that I would say. If I had a second one, it would be work on your emotional regulation. If ever there were a time where you're going to be on your ear. Where you're going to be triggered, where you're going to be reactive, where you're going to say things that can fly out of your mouth before they even cross your rational brain, it's when you're going through a divorce. And so learning what your triggers are and how to regulate yourself in a few moments. And there's a ton out there these days on emotional regulation so that you can be the best parent, so that you can partner effectively with your attorney, and so that you can put this phase of your life behind you and get on with the business of living a good life.
Jaime - 00:41:54:
That is excellent advice. Thank you so much for joining me, Karen.
Karen - 00:41:58:
Thank you so much for having me, Jaime.
Jaime - 00:42:05:
Thank you for listening. If you like this episode, be sure to follow the show wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss the next one. While the information presented is intended to provide you with general information to navigate divorce without destruction, this podcast is not legal advice. This information is specific to the law in North Carolina. If you have any questions before taking action, consult an attorney who is licensed in your state. If you are in need of assistance in North Carolina, you can contact us at Gailor Hunt by visiting divorceistough.com. I'm Jaime Davis, and I'll talk with you next time on A Year and a Day.