Hannah Brotherton | BJT17 - Main
[00:00:00] Hannah: your career is not you and you are not your career. And it is okay to have jobs that are not perfect. You likely will. Um, and that you are going to need different things at different times. And that's okay. And it's okay to, you know, figure out that like, Oh, at this point in my life, you know, that's not actually what I want.
[00:00:16] Hannah: And it was before. And that's okay. Like, I think that just being okay with that you are evolving and that sometimes what you want might change and that it's, it's not a reflection of you not being the smart and amazing and capable person that you are. It's more just a reflection of you being aware. Of where you're at and making like a conscious choice to pursue that moment.
[00:00:39] Cesar: Hey friends. Welcome to another episode of beyond the job title podcast. I'm your host Sessa Ramiro. And this is the podcast where we showcase the stories of underrepresented talent in tech. And in this episode, I have the pleasure of hosting. Hannah brought her term. She's a customer success [00:01:00] professional with over nine years of experience, creating data-driven strategies and streamlining. Customer operations. And in this episode, we talk about her career journey into customer success. People in from design. Uh, into tech. Uh, leadership imposter syndrome. Uh, what's like to. To be in a parent. And so much more.
[00:01:23] Cesar: So, whether you're seeking inspiration, mentorship, or actionable strategies to advance your career. Then this episode is for you.
[00:01:31] Cesar: And before we dive into the episode, please. If you enjoy this episode. Please make sure to subscribe. So. You don't miss out on any future episode. Thank you so much for the opportunity. And here's my conversation with Hannah Brotherton.
[00:01:45] Cesar: We'll go ahead and get started on. Thanks so much for coming on the show. I really appreciate you taking the time and I want to start off with rapid fire icebreaker. I'll basically ask you a question and you give me your top of mind 30 to 45 second [00:02:00] answer.
[00:02:00] Cesar: All right, let's do it. First question. Uh, one book that has greatly influenced your life.
[00:02:07] Hannah: I want this book to be cooler, but it's not. Um, it's, it's a Byron Katie book called Loving What Is. Uh, and at first, it's been a book that's stuck with me. It's very much about like understanding your thoughts and kind of like approaching your thoughts and how you're experiencing things in, you know, A way that's more conscious, and it was given to me by my sister when my mom was really sick, and I was really struggling, and I remember looking at the book cover, and I don't know if I can curse, but basically being like, F this person, she looks so relaxed, and I don't like her.
[00:02:43] Hannah: And then reading the book and I still carry like that practice through my life and have sense reading it. So it's been very impressionable. Do not recommend the book cover. It's like way too chill looking, um, but good context.
[00:02:57] Cesar: Why do you think it's important to [00:03:00] understand our thoughts?
[00:03:01] Hannah: Well, if anybody else is like me, there's a lot of them.
[00:03:07] Hannah: Um, and I like to tell myself that I can be an unreliable narrator of my own life. And I think especially in times of like stress, or even times of like great joy of being able to know that your thoughts are not necessarily you, or always true. And to have that, like, kind of ability to take a step back and not just, like, go down the path with them and be like, do I, do I want to be angry about that?
[00:03:43] Hannah: Or do I want to, oh my gosh, she keeps calling me. Do I want to react to that? Like, sometimes, no. And that's okay. And I think that that part is really important. And it's helped me a ton. Yeah, happens
[00:03:59] Cesar: to me all the time, you [00:04:00] know, um, with my thoughts, and it's hard to sometimes remind yourself, you and I are thoughts, right?
[00:04:06] Cesar: Whatever you're thinking, it could be a positive or a negative. Totally. The choice
[00:04:10] Hannah: is yours. Totally, totally. And that ability, like her like saying is, where would you be without that thought? And I think for me, that's always super powerful of like, when I have these thoughts where I can like, you can feel.
[00:04:23] Hannah: Like your emotions starting and I have this reaction of like, Oh, I don't want that emotion to be here. And it's like, sometimes. Okay, cool. Like if I, if I choose not to, you know, go on a journey with this thought right now, that's okay. And I don't have to have that. And I can say. No, that's Joe. I can like talk about you later, or maybe never.
[00:04:42] Hannah: And I'll talk about you 10 years later with my therapist.
[00:04:45] Cesar: Absolutely. All right. Next, next question here. Um, one of the most worthwhile investments that you have made, uh, in recent memory. And it could be a physical thing, a relationship, something financial.
[00:04:58] Hannah: The, the one thing [00:05:00] that comes to mind, I am. The mother of a human child, um, and for me, like a lot of being a working parent is gives and takes and deciding like what you're going to own and then what you're going to what I say is outsource and what the value is of that. And so for me, I have somebody clean my house.
[00:05:25] Hannah: And it is one of the things that allows me on weekends to not worry about that and spend that time with my kid and my family. And so I feel like that's something. That, like, is just the gift of time for me, and has been, like, the thing that has just insistently been a gift. It's just one of those things where it's like, oh gosh, every single time this house gets cleaned, I think to myself, I don't have to do this, and I can go on a bike ride for two hours with my kid on Saturday, instead of stressing about getting our house clean so we [00:06:00] don't look like we actually live in a tornado.
[00:06:02] Cesar: Did you always have that mindset of leverage or did you realize at some point, you know, I can either clean the house or spend time with
[00:06:11] Hannah: my kid? I didn't. And I think it's a huge privilege, like having, having that as an option set is something that like I didn't experience until I'd say like the last four years, my child's six.
[00:06:27] Hannah: And so for like her early. Childhood, to me, it was one of those things of like, oh, you know, like you do all the things plus all the things that you did before. And there's a lot of like societal pressures of like, you know, you're a super parent and a super employee and like a super huge like all this stuff and I kind of just came to this perspective of the things that.
[00:06:52] Hannah: I can say no to and that I have the privilege of saying no, I don't think I want to do that. I want to use that time in a different [00:07:00] way. Uh, I've decided that that's the best investment I can make like groceries being delivered. I don't spend an hour on the weekend doing grocery shopping. And so. Now, I spend that time with my kid, because truthfully, bringing your child to a grocery store is going to cost you more money than having somebody else get the groceries for you, is what I've also found out.
[00:07:25] Hannah: Yes. I'd save money now.
[00:07:27] Cesar: Taking your kid to the grocery store, just, just be okay that, you know, unexpected things. Not
[00:07:32] Hannah: much random stuff. Oh my god, yes. Like, why? So that, that's felt really worthwhile.
[00:07:39] Cesar: Since we're on the topic of parenting, uh, what, what was the biggest shift for you when you became a mom and what would you like your child to say about you when they're in their twenties and their thirties?
[00:07:56] Hannah: Wow, that's a good one. I would say becoming [00:08:00] a parent was really hard for me, truthfully. I, I had in having our daughter, I almost passed away giving birth to her. Um, and it was a lot. And so her first, I'd say like the first two years of her life, I had really intense postpartum depression and had a really, like, it felt like somebody had taken the person that I knew.
[00:08:25] Hannah: And, like, drowned them. And so I had a, like, I had a really, truthfully, like, horrible and traumatizing first experience with being a mother. And did not think that would be the case. I was, everything in my life before that I did really well. And it turned out that... I, a lot of the tools that I had that made me super successful in life, in my career, and things like that were not necessarily the things that were going to make me super successful as a parent.
[00:08:59] Hannah: And [00:09:00] so for me, a lot of it was relearning who I was and how, how to be the person that I was then and how to accept that and to say. It's okay to care so deeply that it is that I can't even understand it. About this thing. Literally, it's so annoying, and so soul sucking at times. But that like, I just, I, all I want is to create a world for her that allows her to it.
[00:09:37] Hannah: express like her true self, whatever that looks like. Um, and so for me, it was a huge learning experience. And I think it is like that for so many parents. Um, but I think for me in particular, because of like the level of birth trauma and having intense postpartum depression, which I didn't even know about, I had never been depressed before in my life.
[00:09:57] Hannah: I had no idea that these [00:10:00] feelings could even exist in this way. That for me, I think the thing that I want her to know is that your parent is a person that you know, and I've never tried to impress her with my perfectness. Um, I'm very honest about, like, and you know she's only six so like, for example, I changed my mind, and it's okay to change your mind because sometimes I have information beforehand.
[00:10:29] Hannah: that isn't actually what I think in the end. And so I think it's this ability to teach her and for her to realize that like, I don't actually know everything. But like the one like deepest, truest thing that I know is that like, I care about her like with all of my heart and soul. But what that looks like is going to change.
[00:10:49] Hannah: And I will continue to change and she will continue to change. And like, my hope is that like, we continue to change on paths where like, we always feel really like. love and respect for each [00:11:00] other. Um, and she's only six. So like, she like does think I'm pretty cool at this point. Um, but that will change too, you know, like I will likely be a person that she cannot stand because I am too very annoying and very strong willed and we are both like that.
[00:11:17] Hannah: So yeah, I think parenthood has given me incredible perspective that was very painful to get to.
[00:11:26] Cesar: But that's important, right? That, uh, we have that growth mindset and that we embrace change as our child
[00:11:33] Hannah: changes. Totally. And everything changes. I mean, you have a little one, like, we had kids and then there was a global pandemic.
[00:11:42] Hannah: And the world has changed so much in just their little lifetime. That the pace of change that they're experiencing and just the way they interact with humanity. Like. I remember, like, her being, like, when the pandemic, you know, like, slowed and came to an end, of, like, she wouldn't go more than, like, [00:12:00] six feet from another child.
[00:12:01] Hannah: And I'm like, oh, no, you can go lick their face, like, live your life, kid. And it's like, of course they don't think they can do that. They were told most of the life that they can remember that. They shouldn't do that. Yeah. And they're having to learn how to adjust with like really rapid changing expectations in a rapidly changing world.
[00:12:19] Hannah: So I feel like that's the best kind of model that we can instill on them is that like, you can thrive and grow through change and keep refinding yourself in the process.
[00:12:32] Cesar: Yeah. And that never changes. Right. Uh, even right now, let's say you're in a job, in a career, you still have to embrace that. Mindset of continuous improvement, growth mindset, embracing change, because that never stops, right?
[00:12:48] Cesar: So if you can do it from early on, I think you're, you're setting up that human to become, uh,
[00:12:54] Hannah: resilient. Right. And that the, like, I think it's [00:13:00] like all the things around you can change, but if you can hold onto that, like piece of you, that is like, I don't know, like gold that is like precious. End. Like solid and continue to like cultivate that whatever that looks like and how you cultivate that looks different over time like it's been a big change for me and figuring like how do I cultivate, you know myself when I probably have like a total of seven minutes a week to do that like what is really really like efficient self loving cultivation look like, you know, whereas before it's like I had an entire Saturday day to just hang out like to my jam.
[00:13:36] Hannah: Um, and I think learning that, like, everything can change, you can change, and that is not a threat to, like, that gold that you hold. Like, that's not something that you have to let go of. It just continues to evolve. And that's, like, my favorite quote is, like, the only constant is change. Because it's true.
[00:13:53] Hannah: And it is. Like, every, every single thing changes. And we can fight it as much as we want, but we don't really get a [00:14:00] choice.
[00:14:00] Cesar: Now within the constraints of being a parent and having full time work and a team, um, is there any habit or ritual that you have implemented recently that you have noticed that has helped you get grounded and impacted you in a positive way?
[00:14:18] Hannah: I think Well, like, the first thing I would say is like, I love to go to bed early. Um, so for me, like, sleep is just really important. I've known this my whole life. Um, I'm not a night owl. I am like, I feel so great being in my pajamas by like 8pm and like hitting like a I mean like if we're being honest like an 820 bedtime, but like maybe nine, maybe we're feeling crazy.
[00:14:40] Hannah: Um, so I think sleep, uh, is like for me like a huge form of rejuvenation and I know that I need that. I think the other thing that I find and that like I am very protective of is that like my life and my family's life is so scheduled. Like, you know, it's like, all [00:15:00] right, we got to get to school. I got to get on this meeting.
[00:15:02] Hannah: Okay, I should eat food at some point during this day. When will that happen? All right, I'll do it in this 15 minutes. Okay, we'll pick up the school, we'll go to, we'll make the dinner, we'll go to bed, we'll read the stories, we'll do the thing. Like it gets into this thing which like for me, I find to be super flaming, shockingly.
[00:15:20] Hannah: Um, and so I'm very very protective of what I call like, float time. Um, and my partner kind of makes fun of me for this, but like, I love to just float on the weekends and be like, wake up in the morning and like, Are we going to do something? I don't know. What do we feel like right now? Oh, we feel like doing that?
[00:15:35] Hannah: Cool. Maybe we walk out the door and we're like, oh, we don't want to do that anymore. We're going to change our mind. Um, I find, I find that balancing that like rigidity with like a lot of flexibility in the spaces that I can helps me to kind of balance those things and be able to still have that ability to feel flexible, to feel spontaneity again.
[00:15:56] Hannah: Um, and so Yeah, on the weekends, like, I am the person [00:16:00] when my friends ask, like, Oh, do you want to do something Saturday? I'm like, I don't know. Talk to me on Saturday.
[00:16:05] Cesar: Yes. No, it's important to leave space for serendipity. Right. Right. Like, because during the week it's, it's hard, right. As, as parents, we need to have that structure of the schedule.
[00:16:15] Cesar: Otherwise things don't work.
[00:16:17] Hannah: Everybody will be on fire. Yes.
[00:16:21] Cesar: Um, no, I'm going to, I want to shift gears here into your career. Right. And I wanted to ask you what inspired you to pursue a career in customer success, right? And what is one of the most rewarding things that you find in this field?
[00:16:37] Hannah: I mean, truthfully, I feel like.
[00:16:39] Hannah: It was both fate and like a small level of thought. And so I had been in operations for quite some time. And I think one of the things that became super apparent to me and was apparent across all of my experience prior to being in customer success is that it all comes down [00:17:00] to the customer. Like literally it does not matter in any business.
[00:17:07] Hannah: If you do not have the customer and what they need and how you present that and how you continue to hold that promise, figure it out. And so for me, I moved from operations to managing a customer success team, and it was very much. To me it was like, oh, well, yeah, that's the NIST. That's the core of success is if you can figure out the customer, if you can figure out how to deliver and create something that really drives value for them, all the other things are gonna, like, you can figure out all the other stuff, but that customer is always the heart of, should be the heart of your solutions.
[00:17:47] Hannah: And so it was very much like, I just want to get closer to the problem. Like I want to be as close to that as possible and have the biggest impact. And so I started managing a customer success team. And then I got,[00:18:00] uh, did that for a few years and loved it. Um, and loved having a big team and understanding like how to really drive the customer and the value for them.
[00:18:11] Hannah: And then moved into customer experience operations where I was. Holding more of that entire end to end journey of the customer experience, which was also really fun. Um, but to me, it's the heart of the problem. Do you want to be successful? You have to be good at getting the customer, maintaining the customer and making them want to stay with you.
[00:18:33] Cesar: Yeah. I mean, if there's no customers, there's no business,
[00:18:36] Hannah: right? It doesn't matter. You can have, everything can be the coolest. But if people don't want it, it doesn't matter. And those people are your customer. So like, I want to know what they want.
[00:18:47] Cesar: Now with your, with your background in design, right. Um, I'm curious if there are any design principles or practices that you find particular valuable and that you bring that into your [00:19:00] customer success role and problem solving and
[00:19:03] Hannah: strategy.
[00:19:04] Hannah: Yeah. I mean, I can't. Like I was an interior designer prior and got a degree in art therapy. So like very much have that as like my foundation and to me, everything we do. in any role is design. And it's all about how you curate an environment that drives the results that you're looking for and then how you understand, you know, where those friction points are and how to optimize and how to, you know, curate joy within that experience.
[00:19:42] Hannah: So for me, I'm a very visual person. So when I think about Even when I, like, I work in CS ops now, like when I think about, like, technically I'm really designing for our CS team, like our CSMs, our leadership. And to me, it's like, I want [00:20:00] them any time they go to do something to feel like they're walking into a room with like bright windows and like a soft breeze.
[00:20:09] Hannah: And, you know, they know where to go. They understand where the cups would be. Like, it's very much like it's designing. So that they can live their life and be successful in what they do. And that means moving things around sometimes. That means changing the colors. To me, it's not necessarily about, like, just the steps to get through a process.
[00:20:32] Hannah: It's about the experience of moving through that process and what that individual feels like in the end, in terms of their energy. Like, Are they annoyed? That's not good. Yeah, maybe they did the process, but if every single time they do it, they leave being like, honest sucks. I want those vibes. I want them to leave and be like, I love this.
[00:20:54] Hannah: Great. Like, I love what you've done with the place. So I think for me that [00:21:00] always is part of it. How you move through physical or technological space or just your job in general, um, it's all environmental design.
[00:21:10] Cesar: I love it. And now a lot of people struggle with with tying their foundational background into whatever it's next in their career, right?
[00:21:20] Cesar: Um, was this obvious to you? Or at some point you realize, wait a minute, you know, everything I learned in design, I can actually apply it to business. It
[00:21:29] Hannah: was not obvious at all. Um, and sometimes even when I think back on it, I'm like, huh? Wow, way to, way to tie that in, girl. That was good. Uh, no, I, I'm a very detailed person, but like to me, details builds.
[00:21:48] Hannah: like the bigger picture. Um, and so like I, I very much like in, like when I was in art school, like I was a mixed media, large scale sculpture major. [00:22:00] So very much about like integration, but how, like, how do you carry a message using a lot of different materials and a lot of different like structural elements?
[00:22:12] Hannah: But how do you keep all those things together that's like your details. And so for me that's always been something like I love to switch elevations like that. And I didn't think about the fact that like, I was working for, like an equipment designer and I you know, made a lot of spreadsheets, mostly, and maybe, maybe I'm assuming wrong, but like, I don't know a ton of artists that, like, get really excited to make spreadsheets.
[00:22:38] Hannah: Like, this is something that I was like, Ooh, I will make the coolest spreadsheet ever. Um, and so, for me, it's all about that same thing. Like, how do you take the things that are very necessary? So, data, uh, structure, processes, systems, how do you take all these things that are very necessary? And make them beautiful, you know, and so to me, [00:23:00] I ended up.
[00:23:01] Hannah: Uh, working for a company and sending them like a bunch of spreadsheets to be like, Hey, if you actually, you know, yeah, you're doing this and making these things, but if you actually did it this way, you would save a significant amount of money. And they're like, no designer has ever said this to us before.
[00:23:20] Hannah: I'm like, Oh. Well, you would. And, you know, they, and I ended up going and working for them and doing their operations. Um, so it was, it was not intentional at all. Like, I was committed to being an artist of physical things. Um, and now I just make really, really pretty spreadsheets.
[00:23:38] Cesar: Design matters, right? And I know that you're, you were able to, um, work on what you had in front of you and make the best out of it and even find a gap that, hey, you know, there's, there's this gap here and here's how you can solve it.
[00:23:54] Cesar: And that mindset will get you far in life, right? Because that's, that's what people want. People want problem [00:24:00] solvers.
[00:24:00] Hannah: Yeah. And I think you can, you can solve a problem. Um, but making. The solution beautiful is hard. And I think that that part, like, to me, that's always, I love the process of coming to an answer.
[00:24:16] Hannah: I really love. the process of like making that answer sparkle. And I feel like that because, you know, you can, you can solve a problem all day long, but man, if that doesn't have like some glitter to it and some appeal, it's going to be impossible to adopt. And it does not matter if you have the best solution in the world, but nobody can do it.
[00:24:38] Hannah: It doesn't matter.
[00:24:39] Cesar: I agree with you. Now I was, I was going to some of your LinkedIn recommendations, right. And I noticed that collaboration and laughter. Um, humor, it's, it's part of how you approach your problem solving and team building. And I wanted to ask you if you had any, like, experience that, that stands out to you, um, where you, uh, incorporated these elements of [00:25:00] collaboration, humor, and, and problem solving, you know, when building out a team.
[00:25:03] Hannah: I, when, when I got hired to manage my first CS team, Who, if any of them are listening, we all love each other so much now, but I will say that I was probably one of the most hated people. Really? They were not happy about me coming in. I was one of the first people to be hired externally. Um, I was friendly.
[00:25:28] Hannah: I was annoying. Uh, the vibe was definitely not welcoming. Um, hostile territory, like 100% hostile. Like there were a few things that happened where I'm like, Oh, you guys are gunning for me. Cool. Cool. Cool. I will make you love me. Like you have no choice here. You will love me by the end of this. And I think that for me, like everything we do, like, And this comes down to the design thing, too, is like, If it does not make people see [00:26:00] feel seen and valued and actually help them.
[00:26:05] Hannah: Why, like, why do it. And so for me like going into that leadership role. I cried a lot during my first week in private, not in public, but I did cry every day that I came home because it was mean, um, for me, I just knew that. People want to trust other people, and people want to be connected to other people, and the way that you do that is to be yourself.
[00:26:32] Hannah: And so, I am weird. Like, I am goofy. I do not believe in going to, like, I don't believe in getting on a meeting and being like, cool, Tom, like, what's the agenda? All right, great. We'll just do these items. Like, no, I want to know about your day. Like, if you're having a really bad day or something is going on in your life, this meeting is not the most important thing.
[00:26:53] Hannah: Like, let's, let's figure that out because we're not going to be able to do these other things. And so for me, like, especially in that role, my approach [00:27:00] was, I want to see you so you can see me. And so my first thing is to understand you and how does that work, what does that look like and levity is a gift, not everything like I know that like work is work, whatevs, but like, I don't want to spend my day being boring and not finding joy in the things that I do.
[00:27:29] Hannah: I'm at work. The majority of my time. I want to, I want to laugh. I want to feel empowered and excited by the people that I'm around and motivated by the solutions we're trying to find. And so I, I often like joke when people are like, talk about, especially in operations, like if you don't get things adopted, it really doesn't matter.
[00:27:51] Hannah: And for me, I'm like, Oh, I can do this. Like, yeah. People have to understand that the person behind the process [00:28:00] genuinely cares about them. And if you can do that, and you can actually not like bullshit generally care about them, like I genuinely do care about them, then you can get a lot of people to do a lot of great things and you can have fun doing it together.
[00:28:14] Hannah: And that that's like at the end of the day, what I want, like I want to laugh, I want to do really hard stuff. And I want to do it with people that I want to bring up that I want to like, Rise with me and it just makes it feel better.
[00:28:31] Cesar: I love that. And I love that you create that environment for the people that you work with.
[00:28:35] Cesar: Right. And you care about about the work, of course, but you also care about the human. on the other side that's doing the work.
[00:28:42] Hannah: And you can care about both and I think that's something that like as grown ups we lose but you think about like how kids interact with each other it's often fueled by like joy and just like a genuine need to connect and they solve a [00:29:00] lot of really cool problems we might not look at it and think like oh wow they're like building the future but they are they're solving these problems that But they're doing it in a way that is building a community and they're building relationships and they're growing themselves.
[00:29:12] Hannah: And for me, like, that's, that's what I want to do. And I mean, it's something that, like, I guess I, I forget that, like, that's not how everybody interacts, but like, you better be damn sure if you come to a meeting with me, you're going to have a good time. Like, it is my personal mission to make sure. That you leave feeling good.
[00:29:34] Hannah: Yeah, it's
[00:29:35] Cesar: so important, right? Because if someone gets off that meeting feeling inspired, they're going to go to battle for you.
[00:29:40] Hannah: Totally. Totally. I, I had somebody that when I was in a role previously, that like, really didn't like me. And my director at the time was like, you know, like, I don't get it. And I was like, Oh, don't worry.
[00:29:56] Hannah: He's going to love me. He will like, and it was just like, [00:30:00] I just made it a personal mission and showed up was exactly who I am. Time in time out two months later, we're homies. And it's just like, You gotta build the bridge, you gotta let people get over that bridge, and sometimes, you know, it's like, yeah, I can be, I'm annoying, I show up on meetings, I'm happy, that's annoying, but like, you're gonna leave happy too, and that's okay, you don't have to hate me for it.
[00:30:25] Cesar: So it's just your, I guess your approach to building bridges with other people, it's really to show them that you actually care about them as a human?
[00:30:34] Hannah: Yeah, and, and you, like, It's not like I do. And I think that that's the difference is that like to me, there isn't another agenda. It's not like, oh, I want this person to like me or to work with me because I want X outcome.
[00:30:52] Hannah: I just know. That like, when I care about people, when I show up as myself, when I allow them to show up as [00:31:00] themselves, when I am honest with them, that is the outcome. And so it doesn't need to be manipulative or have another agenda. If we show up and we care, that happens naturally, and that just comes. And...
[00:31:19] Hannah: It also makes it more fun, like, working with people and being around people that you genuinely care about makes you genuinely care about the things you're doing.
[00:31:26] Cesar: What do you think is a misconception when people hear, oh, just show up like yourself or just be yourself?
[00:31:35] Hannah: I think that, I think that lots of us, and I feel this, and I have moments where I'm like, oh goodness, am I being too Hana right now? But I think the reality is that, like, the idea of being like a grown up or a professional, like, in the situations where I need to, you know, like, Put on my like, fancy lady shirt and be the like, [00:32:00] I can do that, but like I'm still always me.
[00:32:03] Hannah: And like, I'm going to crack jokes. I'm going to engage with you personally. Um, and I think the reality is, is that we're afraid that To do that because we're afraid that we won't be accepted for who we are. And I think that that's a very, very valid fear. But I also feel like I've just kind of given up on being afraid of that and feeling like if somebody really, really doesn't like me, because I want to have a little bit of fun and I want everybody to feel energy, not an energy stock when they leave a situation that feels kind of like a you problem.
[00:32:45] Hannah: Um, and I can't control that. Like, I can't control that. So, yeah, I don't know.
[00:32:51] Cesar: At what point did you make that shift? Or were you always like, like, like that? You know, if they like me, they don't like me. Well, that's, that's a problem.
[00:32:59] Hannah: I just [00:33:00] guess I don't even really think about it. Yeah, like I don't I just feel like I haven't had a situation that I can think of, or that I guess I know of where somebody is like, in the end they're like, I just hate that lady.
[00:33:17] Hannah: She is just. Too much fun. Like, I mean, like, come on, riddle me that. Like, no, I don't think so. Um, but like, you know, and there's people that at times, like, I don't vibe with, but I think that in general, if you, like, I can work with so many different kinds of people because of the fact that, like, I'm just interested in who they are.
[00:33:40] Hannah: And so like, when I get on a meeting with somebody, like, for example, like I was on a meeting, cause we were having an issue with our tool the other day and I was experiencing the issue and I'm getting on with one of our engineers and I never had like a one on one meeting with them before. And so, yes, like I want to solve this problem, but I'm also like, Oh my gosh.
[00:33:58] Hannah: Hi. [00:34:00] How are, like, we've never gotten the chance to have a one on one meeting before, like, I'm so excited, I've heard so much about you, like, please, and like, there's, you know, I've heard about this person, so I knew that they lived in this country that I was super curious about, so like, I would love to hear sometime, like, about your life, like, would you care that I put time on your calendar for us to chat some other time?
[00:34:20] Hannah: Like, yes, let's solve this issue. But like, genuinely, like, I feel less weird now that we've talked in person to, like, ask you for a meeting. And now I go and put a meeting on their calendar because I genuinely want to know about them.
[00:34:33] Cesar: Especially in a remote setting, right? Where it was just like, Yeah, we're connected via Slack or whatever platform you use, but just making that time means a lot.
[00:34:43] Cesar: Right. Yeah. I've, I've done that at other companies, um, where I've been remote and they're like, why you're, you're doing this, like you're actually dedicating time. People are
[00:34:51] Hannah: like, is there something wrong? Why do you have a meeting on my calendar? What do you want to talk about? I'm like, I want to talk about.
[00:34:56] Hannah: The chinchilla that you bought, because that [00:35:00] is interesting. Tell me more.
[00:35:02] Cesar: Now, um, you know, we all experienced moments of Imposter syndrome, self doubt, right, especially when we transition into a new company, a new role, right, we don't, we don't really know what to expect. Um, and I wanted to ask you, uh, if you have a particular moment throughout your career where you experienced these feelings and any advice that you could have, you know, for someone in the audience that might be going through something similar.
[00:35:27] Hannah: I mean, I think it happens every day. Like, I, I mean, there's, like, I'm no, I'm not, like, immune to, like, feeling insecure or having these questions about myself, but I feel like I try my best. Like, and I know that. And so when I do that, like, if I have those feelings that lots of time is because I just haven't experienced something before and just because you haven't experienced something before does not mean [00:36:00] that you are wrong or that you shouldn't be there.
[00:36:03] Hannah: And one, one of the women that I work with who is. Like, one of the smartest people and most, like, kind and thoughtful people I know. Selenia, if you're listening, it is you. Um, and she was, we were talking about imposter syndrome one day, and she was saying how somebody had told her that they don't believe in imposter syndrome anymore, because It's not that you're an imposter, it's that you didn't have, like, the system that you were trying to move into was not built for you.
[00:36:36] Hannah: And so you're not trying to be somebody else, you're trying to be you in a space that you aren't reflected in. And I think to me that takes the pressure off of you, and it doesn't make it a you problem and like think because I've been thinking about imposter syndrome, a lot lately. And one of the [00:37:00] ways that I think imposter syndrome and us saying that is.
[00:37:04] Hannah: Not necessarily beneficial is that it makes it the problem of the individual and I think that in reality imposter syndrome isn't a you problem, it's that, you know, maybe, maybe you didn't have this experience in the past because you didn't have the privilege of having it, or maybe the space didn't normally have you in it and so of course you didn't have the past.
[00:37:29] Hannah: happen or people around you don't look like you. That doesn't mean that you're an imposter. That means that like you're a warrior in some ways. Like you were the first person doing this and you don't have to emulate how it had been done by other people. You can emulate how it was done by you. And that's going to feel weird.
[00:37:50] Hannah: Like,
[00:37:50] Hannah: 100% that is going to be uncomfortable and it might be rejected. But I do think that, like, to me, [00:38:00] imposter syndrome is something that is, like, I don't want to subscribe to. Because I do think that it is saying that, like, you know, As a woman, yes. Like, there aren't a ton of women in leadership, or as a person of color, or a marginalized individual.
[00:38:18] Hannah: No! Like, just because you are here does not mean that you shouldn't be there, and that does not mean that you need to look or imposter.
[00:38:29] Hannah: And I think collectively, if we can say, like, imposter syndrome is not a problem of the person who is trying to gold and be in that space, it is us for not allowing them there, and not making the space for them to feel comfortable, and like they are an imposter, and we all have to try things for the first time, we all have to feel uncomfortable, we all have to make mistakes, and when you're doing that as somebody who doesn't see them Reflected in a [00:39:00] space.
[00:39:00] Hannah: It feels like so much pressure because you don't want to mess up and you also are not that other person you never will be. And I think that that's okay. And I think that that's actually really beautiful and super beneficial. And I think like the more imposter syndrome that we have, the better. Like the more we are feeling like, whoa, this is uncomfortable.
[00:39:22] Hannah: I don't really feel like I know what I'm doing here. Like, check that, that, that's like, that's the juice. That's, that's the space to like own and figure out and feel uncomfortable and not, and understand what that looks like. And I've transitioned industries a ton of times, like, I worked in manufacturing and the outdoor industry.
[00:39:40] Hannah: That's like pretty straight white guy territory. Uh, and as a woman coming into that, it was weird. Like it was hard and no, I didn't see myself in a lot of other people. Now I work for this company where our CEO is a woman. We have all these women in leadership. We have people all different [00:40:00] backgrounds.
[00:40:00] Hannah: And to me, I'm like, that is. A, so reassuring, like, I don't feel scared of being myself. I can be me. And also, we're, we're just like a bunch of imposters. Like killing it together. So like, let's play. It's okay. Um, that's a long winded answer, but I've been thinking about imposter syndrome a lot.
[00:40:23] Cesar: No, no. And it's, it's a very important conversation, right?
[00:40:26] Cesar: And I, I agree with you when we try to do something new, uh, bring it to a new industry, right? We tried to fit into this box and the box might not fit us. And, and when we're trying to do that, a lot of times we forget To be ourselves, and I think that's where the detriment comes from and
[00:40:48] Hannah: I think to that, like, so, for example, like, uh, the CSOps role I have now is my first role in SAS, and I think the reality of being [00:41:00] a good, like, change agent, being able to adapt and shift is also I wouldn't say being comfortable because I don't think anyone, and I am not comfortable not knowing things, I think that just automatically makes us feel uncomfortable.
[00:41:16] Hannah: But like, you're not going to know everything. And not knowing is not a, like, badge of not being worthy. Or, not that you shouldn't be somewhere. Just because you don't know doesn't mean that you don't belong. You'll figure it out. You'll learn it. You'll learn all the weird acronyms. That apparently everybody has in every industry, we're like, what does that even mean?
[00:41:43] Hannah: They're like, well, you're like, okay, Google.
[00:41:47] Cesar: Yeah. Especially in this, especially in this day and age, right. The, the, the pace of change is so fast that you not knowing things it's going to become common because it's just changing too much. Right. And having the mindset that we're talking [00:42:00] about earlier of You know, identifying problems, coming up with solutions, collaboration, some humor into that, caring about the human.
[00:42:09] Cesar: I think those are fundamentals that, uh, they're going to become more and more important as, as AI and technology advances.
[00:42:16] Hannah: 100%. And I think one of the things that I had a LinkedIn post on it a while back is that not knowing something is not a fault, not finding it out is. And I think that that's one of the beauties of like being alive in this moment is that people are so generous with their knowledge like it amazes me every single time I go on YouTube like I re Uh, modeled our entire kitchen by myself, did all the plumbing, all the, like, rewiring.
[00:42:47] Hannah: I've never done that before. I learned it from some homie on YouTube. And, like, just because you don't know how to do something, that's not bad. But, like, You damn better figure it out,[00:43:00] like, and you can, and use your resources, use your network, use YouTube, use the World Wide Web, like there's all this, all this knowledge out there that people are like, like this guy that I watched his plumbing videos on that was like in Massachusetts, he's like in his 70s doing these videos with his phone.
[00:43:19] Hannah: And I'm like, Oh my gosh, this is like the most generous person in the world. Like I would never have known this before and it would have been really hard to figure it out, but all this knowledge is there now and it's incredible. It's like, you can find, you can figure stuff out. Yeah.
[00:43:34] Cesar: Yeah. Awesome. I feel like we've touched on your career, um, some personal things and I wanted to bring it all home, uh, to wrap up the episode.
[00:43:43] Cesar: And I wanted to ask you, uh, if you have any advice to. You know, someone just starting out in the industry or perhaps pursuing a similar career path. Um, especially if, if they're, if they're parents, right? Like what, what advice would you have for them to wrap up the episode?
[00:43:59] Hannah: [00:44:00] Think that in, I guess for me, that like your career is not you and you are not your career. And it is okay to have jobs that are not perfect. You likely will. Um, and that you are going to need different things at different times. And that's okay. And it's okay to, you know, figure out that like, Oh, at this point in my life, you know, that's not actually what I want.
[00:44:27] Hannah: And it was before. And that's okay. Like, I think that just being okay with that you are evolving and that sometimes what you want might change and that it's, it's not a reflection of you not being the smart and amazing and capable person that you are. It's more just a reflection of you being aware. Of where you're at and making like a conscious choice to pursue that moment.
[00:44:53] Hannah: And I think that's okay. And I feel like I've done that for most of my life, life changes. There's different things. You need different things. Um, [00:45:00] I've worked across tons of industries, lots of different areas. And yeah, just like knowing that you'll figure it out and you will likely mess up and that's okay, but you're going to like, you'll learn from your experiences and it's not fatal.
[00:45:15] Cesar: I love that optimizing for whatever stage you are in your life, which is different
[00:45:20] Hannah: right for totally different. Yeah, I mean being a parent, especially like I went from having a big leadership role and decided, you know, a year and a half ago like, Oh, I. The person that I really, really want to deeply, deeply, deeply care about those are the people in my family right now.
[00:45:35] Hannah: Yeah. And that's okay. Yeah. And it, it feels great.
[00:45:40] Cesar: Yeah, no, it's okay. You know, a lot of times we feel this pressure of being something that we think we should be.
[00:45:48] Hannah: Totally. And your career doesn't have to be your only representation of success. And also it can be. And that can change throughout your life.
[00:45:58] Hannah: Love that. [00:46:00]
[00:46:00] Cesar: And thanks so much for coming on the episode. Uh, I really appreciate you sharing a bit about your personal journey with your career and giving us some advice on how to navigate this, uh, constant change. Um, if, if people wanted to reach out to you, what would be the best way for them to, uh,
[00:46:13] Hannah: to do that?
[00:46:14] Hannah: Well, I am on LinkedIn, Hannah Brotherton, um, and. Truthfully, that is the only social media I have, so that is your only hope. You could also, like, send me a messenger pigeon, I guess, um, but I feel like that's probably not as effective, so LinkedIn is probably the best way. Um, Hunter Brotherton and I work at Spackett.
[00:46:36] Hannah: Well, thanks
[00:46:37] Cesar: so much for coming on the show again. Um, I appreciate your time. And yeah, we'd love to do another episode down the road to catch up. Uh, but for now, thank you.
[00:46:46] Hannah: Oh my gosh, it was so much fun. I love it. all right. I hope you enjoyed this episode and thank you so much for listening all the way through. I appreciate you. And I hope that you get some valuable information that you can apply to our personal and professional [00:47:00] life. If this story resonated with you and you would like to support the podcast.
[00:47:04] Cesar: Please make sure to subscribe. So you don't miss out on any future episodes. Thank you so much for the opportunity. I appreciate you. And I look forward to serving you in the next episode.
