Think Fast Talk Smart: Communication Techniques

A full life isn’t about the quantity of time, but the quality.
Our lifespan might describe how long we live, but it doesn’t say anything about how well we live. For that, Kerry Burnight says, we need a different measure: joyspan.
Burnight is a gerontologist, former professor of geriatric medicine, and author of Joyspan: The Art and Science of Thriving in Life's Second Half. In her decades working with older adults, she noticed a gap: “I would have a lot of people who lived long lives and were in pretty darn good physical health. They were miserable.” That observation led her to dig into the research on well-being — and to find what it takes to enjoy a long life, not just endure one.
In this episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, Burnight joins host Matt Abrahams to explore her joyspan framework, explaining how growth, connection, adapting, and giving contribute to a full life. From changing the conversation around aging to communicating more effectively across generations, Burnight offers practical wisdom for living better at any age.

Episode Reference Links:
Connect:

Chapters:

  • (00:00) - Introduction
  • (03:20) - Defining Joyspan
  • (05:27) - The Joyspan Matrix
  • (11:03) - Learning to Adjust
  • (11:57) - The Power of Stories
  • (15:38) - Internalized Ageism
  • (18:40) - The Final Three Questions
  • (25:58) - Conclusion

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Creators and Guests

Host
Matt Abrahams
Lecturer Stanford University Graduate School of Business | Think Fast Talk Smart podcast host
Guest
Kerry Burnight
Gerontologist | Author | Former Professor of Geriatric Medicine

What is Think Fast Talk Smart: Communication Techniques?

One of the most essential ingredients to success in business and life is effective communication.

Join Matt Abrahams, best-selling author and Strategic Communication lecturer at Stanford Graduate School of Business, as he interviews experts to provide actionable insights that help you communicate with clarity, confidence, and impact. From handling impromptu questions to crafting compelling messages, Matt explores practical strategies for real-world communication challenges.

Whether you’re navigating a high-stakes presentation, perfecting your email tone, or speaking off the cuff, Think Fast, Talk Smart equips you with the tools, techniques, and best practices to express yourself effectively in any situation. Enhance your communication skills to elevate your career and build stronger professional relationships.

Tune in every Tuesday for new episodes. Subscribe now to unlock your potential as a thoughtful, impactful communicator. Learn more and sign up for our eNewsletter at fastersmarter.io.

Matt Abrahams: A truly fulfilling
and meaningful life is not just

about lifespan, it's about joy span.

My name is Matt Abrahams, and I
teach Strategic Communication at

Stanford Graduate School of Business.

Welcome to Think Fast
Talk Smart, the podcast.

Today, I am really excited
to chat with Kerry Burnight.

Kerry is a world renowned
gerontologist and advocate for the

elderly, who has spent over 20 years
improving the lives of older adults.

She is a former professor of geriatric
medicine at the University of

California, Irvine, and currently
at the University of Chicago.

She specializes in using technology and
compassionate communication to change how

society values and interacts with elders.

Her latest book is called Joy
Span: The Art and Science of

Thriving in Life's Second Half.

Welcome, Kerry.

Thank you so much for being here.

We have friends in common, and
I am so thrilled to actually be

talking to you in person, not
just via text and on the phone.

Kerry Burnight: Oh, well, as a listener of
your podcast, I feel especially excited.

Matt Abrahams: Well, thank you.

Shall we get started?

Kerry Burnight: Please.

Matt Abrahams: I would love to
start with the concept of joy span.

What is it, and how is it different
from lifespan and healthspan?

Kerry Burnight: As a gerontologist,
I spent the last 30 years talking

about lifespan, how long we live.

And it's a good start.

But more recently, in the 1980s, we have
added the concept of healthspan, which

has been really helpful because you want
to live as healthy as you can for as long

as you can, physically and cognitively.

The problem was I would have a lot
of people I would work with who lived

long lives and were in pretty darn good
physical health and were miserable.

So then the question is: why is it that
some people are enjoying these long lives

and some people are suffering so much?

So I really dug into the literature
on wellbeing, which I know is one of

your interests, and what I learned was
there's so much that we can be doing to

impact the quality of our long lives.

So joy span Is simply how
many years you enjoy living.

And it's a biggie, and joy is often
not clearly defined, so I wanted

to start with that because what joy
is not is toxic positivity, happy,

happy, pretend things aren't hard,
because growing older is hard.

There's a lot of challenges.

I don't know anybody who escapes
all the challenges of growing older.

But joy, as defined by the American
Psychological Association, is

well-being and life satisfaction.

And I love that Desmond Tutu and the
Dalai Lama wrote a book called The

Book of Joy, which is such a good book.

And they really differentiate
between happiness and joy.

So happiness being often circumstantial
or outside in, whereas joy is more akin

to contentment and being able to feel
some wellbeing regardless of circumstance.

And that's when I knew I had my word
joy span because it is the regardless

of circumstance that we're after.

Matt Abrahams: Really interesting.

So it's not about the context, it's
about the internal perspective.

You know, and people who listen
and watch know, that I love words.

And a word like joy span is one that's
very inviting and makes people curious,

and I think that opens them up to learning
the, the many things you have to share.

Speaking of sharing, you have
created a joy span matrix, which

consists of four components,
grow, connect, adapt, and give.

And in your awesome book, you
dedicate a chapter to each.

So I know we won't do it justice in
just this brief conversation, but

can you give us a little bit of an
overview of those four components?

Kerry Burnight: Yes.

I just scoured the literature
on wellbeing in longevity.

Why, why, why some people from the outside
have the same health conditions, the same

socioeconomic status, the same exercise,
eating, and yet such different experience.

And what I found was there were these,
they grouped into four elements, and

I spent a ridiculous amount of wasted
time trying to make a cute acronym.

And one day I was just sitting
in my coffee shop where I write

and I thought, in this occasion,
it is just the words that it is.

So it is four words that the listeners
can take to heart, and they're all

verbs because they all take action.

They take effort.

And there is a little way to remember
them, and it starts and ends with a

G, so there are G's on the outside.

And then I, the author, happen to be from
California, so there's CA in the middle.

So we're gonna start with the
G, and that first is grow.

So what the literature shows us, that
those people who enjoy their long lives,

who age well, are people who are committed
to continue to develop themselves.

So as younger people, we're all
the time saying, "Matt, climb up

on the diving board. Do this, do
that." Things you've never done.

As we get older, understandably,
sometimes we lean out.

And the reason for it is that we have
been programmed through a multi-billion

dollar anti-aging industry telling
us that it is bad to get old, it

is ugly, it is less than, you're,
you don't have as much to give.

And because of that, we then are
not leaning in to keep growing.

But the reality is there are many
things that get better as you

get older, and we'll probably get
into that later because it's not

publicized, because it's not lucrative.

So we started with grow,
continuing to keep going.

Next, we're going to the
C, and that's connect.

So we know from the literature
that connection between humans

is a non-negotiable, regardless
of how introverted you are.

You can be lonely in a marriage or in a
group, or you can be fulfilled, but we

require some back and forth, and that
we simply can't rest on the oars of

longtime friendships because when you,
like my patients, live into your 90s,

you outlive your friends, or they move
away, or they have cognitive impairment.

The sentence I use here is to be that
friend who picks up the phone, who

remembers it's been two years since
your father's passing, who says, "May

I drive you to chemo?" Who says, "I'm
making a book club, do you want to

join?" You got to put yourself out there.

Matt Abrahams: And
proactive and persistent.

Kerry Burnight: Yes.

Then brings us to the third.

We've got grow, connect.

The A is adapt.

So that literature was actually out
of a researcher in Israel who found

that people who could enjoy their long
lives were people who could adapt.

Because,

Matt Abrahams: Right.

So not set in your ways.

Kerry Burnight: Not set in your ways,
but also recognizing that circumstances

are going to come regardless of all
your burpees and green juices and

plunges, and all the things we're doing.

There will be changes, and they're
not things you necessarily anticipate.

Even things, for example, when I was
writing the chapter on adaptation,

our 25-year-old daughter was
diagnosed with a brain tumor, and it

was devastating because I thought,
well, that can't possibly be.

And then here I'm writing about adapting.

I was like, no, that is life.

Another word for aging is living,
and you're going to have these things

come your way that you didn't expect.

And when they do, not if they do, when
they do, how we adjust to those is what

predicts how we will experience our long
life, and indeed how we'll be remembered.

So this ability to adapt to these things
that you never asked for really matters.

And then gets to our
final G, and that is give.

And so there's a big literature
around purpose and contribution.

And again, when we recognize all that
we have to give as we get older, and we

reject the notion that we have less to
give, we recognize the world needs what

older Matt, older Kerry have to offer.

For example, as we get older, we have the
potential for increased problem-solving,

increased appreciation of connection,
increased and deepening spirituality,

appreciation of beauty, humility.

I mean, can you imagine if we all
step up and lean into our humility,

what this would do as a nation?

So society needs us to give what
this older version has to offer.

Matt Abrahams: So these four
together make the joy span matrix.

And we can work on each of these
components to help us build

and appreciate our joy span.

I have to ask, is your daughter okay?

Kerry Burnight: Yes.

Thank you for asking.

So she was packed up to go to
medical school, got this diagnosis.

We were all devastated, and she wasn't
able to then go because she then instead

moved home and was on the patient
side instead of on the doctor side.

And as life does, we
adapted, and she adapted.

And so now she has an
MRI every six months.

She went to a different school
that's next to her neurosurgeon.

She's gotten used to
some of the side effects.

So did we pick it?

No.

Is it life and there's
still so much goodness?

Yes.

So thank you.

She's doing just fine.

Matt Abrahams: I'm glad to hear that,
and what an example of adapting.

And speaking of examples, one of the
things that was so touching about

your book is with each of those
four areas, you not only explain

them, but you use a person, a real
person, and walk through how they

are realizing and actualizing that.

And one of the things that brought a smile
to my face is you use your own mother,

who is in her 90s, as an example as well.

As you were writing, I just want
to get a little meta about your

thought process, why did you decide
to tell personal stories of people

to help understand these concepts?

Because it really helped me to get it.

Kerry Burnight: Yes.

People love aspirational examples, and
we have that in other parts of our lives.

We look ahead to our professors, and
yet we haven't traditionally had as

many role models so readily available.

But now, happily, with things like
social media and a recognition from

this beauty industry that there
is great beauty in so many of us.

And so with my mom, it was
such, it's a mutual learning.

And so she'll be 97 next month, and
she wasn't particularly fitness guru.

She didn't eat perfect.

She had a cocktail and a dessert
most nights, and she wasn't even on

a path that was particularly great.

But happily, as I, 30 years ago, would
learn things in my studies, I would say,

"Oh, Mom, did you know that something
as simple as doing a gratitude journal

can statistically change da, da, da?"
So she started incorporating these

things, and now I'm the one always
learning from her because she is the

best version of herself right now.

She is vital, hilarious, humble,
beautiful, radiant, and I, I felt

I couldn't keep her to myself, so
I started sharing her on social

media, and now millions and
millions of people are watching her.

And what they always say is, "I want to
be like her." And what I type back is,

"You can." It isn't accurate that aging
is just something that happens to you.

In fact, the research shows
us that between 14 and 25% of

how you will age is genetic.

So the rest, we have something that we
can do both with our physical, what we do

moving these bodies, continuing to learn.

But a lot of the emphasis right now is the
exterior, the meat bag, the carrying case.

And it does matter, but I'd never go to
a funeral and have people say, "Did you

know that guy's VO2 max? It was really
impressive." They say things like, "Wow,

when nobody was looking, he mentored me.
He took me to the side, and he gave me

a shot." A lot of these interior things
that end up being the biggies in life.

Matt Abrahams: Wow, the power of
stories to motivate, and I love

that you've made your mom a social
influencer, and that she's embraced it.

And how lovely to be able to teach her
and have her teach you simultaneously.

Kerry Burnight: Oh,
she teaches me so much.

So just yesterday, I was at her house,
and I had the thought, "She doesn't

complain." And she did, she used to
years ago when she was only in her 50s.

And so I said, "How is it that you don't
complain?" And I just, in one shot,

turned my camera on her, and she talked
about how she just inside her mind says,

"Oh, Betty, knock it off." And so then
there have been thousands of people who

have laughed, "Oh, Betty, knock it off."

Matt Abrahams: Another technique that
you use in your writing, which I love

because I am a quote collector, you use
lots of quotes, and some of my favorite

quotes in your work are quotes you had.

And one that really stood out to me
is, "Your habits have more power to

shape your health than your genes
ever will." And you've talked a little

bit about the percentages there.

But can you give us some insight into
what are those habits, and are there

habits that we should adopt for mind,
body, and spirit, and connection?

Kerry Burnight: Yes.

And the step one that I want
you to adopt today is how you

think about growing older.

Because most of us, understandably,
see it as all decline, and we've

been taught that, and to think, name
something, it's gonna go downhill.

Well, when you expect that,
that is really what happens.

Matt Abrahams: It's a
self-fulfilling prophecy.

Kerry Burnight: The problem
is it simply isn't true.

So I think in terms of ways that you
could make a difference in your own

aging is to just today say, "Every
time I hear my internalized ageism,"

so I think of it, we all talk about AI,
this is IA. For example, you can't find

your car for a moment in the parking
lot and you think, "Oh, there it is.

I'm losing it." No, you couldn't
find your car when you were 23.

And so you could replace that
thought with, "Don't be silly.

It's not an aging thing." Or when you say
to yourself, "It's too late," or I say

to myself, for example, I'll be looking
at my phone, and it will flip around, and

I'll see like 25,000 chins under here.

And my first reaction is like,
"Oh, no." And then I think,

of course, I'm in my late 50s.

That's what necks do.

It's no personal shame.

It's not a tragedy.

It's not ugly.

It's okay.

And it's so liberating to
combat our internalized ageism.

And nobody's gonna do it for us.

So a 20-year-old is not going to go,
"Ah-ha, growing older is..." It needs

to come from us, those who are aging.

And so, for example, I work with a lot
of people in their 80s and 90s, and

some younger people think it's such
a compliment to say, "Oh, Matt, you

don't even look like you're 85." The
thing is, we've already been young.

The goal is not to stay young.

So what we say now is when people
say, "You don't look 85," you say,

"This is what 85 looks like." Or they
say, "You don't even seem old." I

want to lean into it because that's
how we're going to revolutionize and

change aging, as a new longevity.

It's a new way to maximize all 100 years.

Matt Abrahams: I really like that
approach, and I appreciate the

specifics there because I find myself
saying some very similar things.

Kerry Burnight: We all do.

I do, too.

And there's no way we couldn't, because
ever since you were a little boy, they

read you a story and said, "Hansel and
Gretel went out, and this old witch

with a long nose was going to eat them."
And that was our introduction to old.

Matt Abrahams: My mother is in her
late 80s, and I'll say, "Hey, you're

doing great for somebody in your
80s," and she hates that last part,

and it reminds me to stop saying it.

Kerry, I knew this was going
to be a great conversation.

It certainly has been.

I'd like to end with three questions,
as you know, as a listener, the first

one I'm going to make up just for you.

The other two I ask everybody.

You up for that?

Kerry Burnight: Yes.

Matt Abrahams: Excellent.

I'm really curious.

As somebody who's studied joy and joy
span, what is the one thing that you have

found in your own life that has really
made a difference in your experience of

joy and do you think is setting you on the
path to having a healthy, long joy span?

Kerry Burnight: If I had to summarize
it in one word, it would be choice,

that we have a choice in how we live
and experience these long lives,

even if we lose our vision, even if
we are confined to bed, even if when

our partners pass away, we have a
choice in how we respond to those.

So that's like Viktor Frankl's Man's
Search for Meaning, where he says,

"The one thing that we have..."
Here he was in a concentration camp,

and he said, "We can choose that
spiritual freedom of how we respond."

I just, I find that so comforting.

Matt Abrahams: Thank you for that.

It's very empowering, and I appreciate
you choosing choice as your answer.

Question number two, who's a
communicator that you admire and why?

Kerry Burnight: I am a big fan these days
of Helen Mirren, who is an actress who is

leaning into being beautiful and radiant
and strong and irreverent in her 80s.

And when people say, "You're
young," she'll say, "No, I'm

not, and I don't wanna be.

I've been young.

I'm old." And to use those words to take
back, that it can be absolutely, it's

our definition of what it means, and
that it's not... And when if somebody

says you look old, that is not an insult,
or you don't have to take it as such.

And it's not a compliment to
say you look good for your age.

You just, you look good, and
who cares even how you look?

But I, when Helen Mirren speaks, I listen.

Matt Abrahams: Absolutely.

Not only is she a phenomenal
actress, she's got a wonderful

resonant voice, and I love that she
is adopting what you said, choice.

She's making choices to really lean
into her age and her profession.

Kerry Burnight: And she's changing
it for people who come behind us, and

that's something that we can do for
our children, is that we can change,

I'm seeing it in my lifetime because
in the beginning when I, 30 years ago,

it was people sitting in wheelchairs in
the hall, slumped all the way over with

loud TVs blaring nonsense, and it's not.

We're changing that.

And so within our lifetimes, we're
changing and how great we can set

it up for our kids and grandkids.

Matt Abrahams: Absolutely.

Absolutely.

My wife and I are making conscious
choices to help make sure our kids

see their grandparents aging, but also
our aging, so they can see what that's

like and the choices they can make.

Final question.

What are the first three ingredients that
go into a successful communication recipe?

Kerry Burnight: Okay.

Could I change it to do a successful
communication recipe when you're

working with older adults?

Matt Abrahams: You may do that.

Absolutely.

Again, making a bold choice.

But yes, please.

Kerry Burnight: So the first is listen.

Close your mouth for a minute
and slow down and listen.

The second is particularly if
you, like me, you have a higher

voice, to lower your voice.

We lose hearing in our higher register.

So what happens is I'm talking to
somebody, and to make it louder, I come

higher, then they really can't hear me.

Go a little bit lower down here.

And so I do this with my patients of,
"It's great to see you today, Mrs. Jones.

How are you?" I don't have to go louder.

I can just go lower.

And then the third component is
to always be eye level with people

who are older because this thing of
standing up above and leaning over

down to somebody's chair or wheelchair,
it doesn't set up the right vibe.

So if you can, just to get to
face to face, and then we can

hear better, we can read lips, we
can connect better face to face.

Matt Abrahams: The three Ls, I love it.

Uh, listen, lower your
voice, and get to that level.

And I think that's advice that,
that transcends any communication.

I really like that idea of lowering
your voice, being conscious of not

just what I'm saying, but how I
say it can really help somebody.

Kerry Burnight: Yes.

My husband has a very deep voice, and
occasionally I can't get to the place that

I need to, and so I'll just quietly say
to him, and then he says the same thing,

and the person can understand completely.

Matt Abrahams: Kerry,
this has been fantastic.

Not only have you taught us tips and
tools that we can use when working

with people who are older, but you've
also shared with us things we can do to

increase our joy span and really make
the best of the lives that we have.

And the communication
advice transcends age.

It's all about just how
to connect and be present.

Thank you so much.

Kerry Burnight: Well, thank you so much.

Matt Abrahams: Thank you for
joining us for another episode of

Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.

To learn more about aging and
communication, please listen

to episode 176 with Bob McCann.

Because Kerry provided so many useful
tips, tools, and techniques, we

created a Quick Thinks episode with
more of her advice and guidance.

Check it out.

This episode was produced by Katherine
Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.

Our music is from Floyd Wonder, with
special thanks to Podium Podcast Company.

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