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Tim Kilroy is back for a third round on how agencies are leaning on AI to do the same work faster, why that makes their marketing blander and easier to forget, and what to hand AI versus what to keep for yourself.
Agency Forward explores the future of agencies as tech and AI drive down the cost of tactical deliverables. Topics include building competent teams, developing strategic offers, systemizing your business, and more.
New episodes delivered every Tuesday.
Chris DuBois 00:01
It's easier than ever to start an agency, but it's only getting harder to stand out and keep it alive. Join me as we explore the strategies agencies are using today to secure a better tomorrow. This is Agency Forward. Tim, welcome back. Third time caller here.
Tim Kilroy 00:23
Threepeat.
Chris DuBois 00:24
Yeah, you were the first guest as we were just talking to. I think have been on three times. Yeah, second
Tim Kilroy 00:31
Chicago Bulls.
Chris DuBois 00:32
Yeah, yeah. I wanted to give you this little tidbit. You are are also now the the holder of the most downloaded episode of Agency Forward, and so yeah, yeah. So you, it's great.
Tim Kilroy 00:46
Yeah. So I like I I think my work here is done.
Chris DuBois 00:50
Yeah, but if you can, if you can take like the one, two, and three slots for okay,
Tim Kilroy 00:56
yeah. Like so, I don't know. I don't know where I am in those. You'll have to share the only top secret information. Yeah, yes,
Chris DuBois 01:03
we'll get there. Okay,
Speaker 1 01:05
all right,
Chris DuBois 01:05
but yeah, today let's talk about just how agencies are using AI and how they maybe are using it incorrectly or with a lot of optimism when they should probably bring in some more realism.
Tim Kilroy 01:21
Oh yes, and very little like Dadaism, and you know, like no Cubism. Really, you know, that was an art thing for you people who, you know, for you children out there. That was yeah. Anyways,
Chris DuBois 01:37
catch up.
Tim Kilroy 01:38
Yeah. So so, I think in amongst my clients, to some extent, and and certainly other places that I see, there's folks who are like they are all in on on AI to you know to like do the stuff that they've always done, and and they're investing a bunch in sort of like tools and and workflows and you know, and I I'm not sure that everybody you know I well since you're an army guy, you'll I think you'll you'll appreciate this. I think that a lot of people are arming themselves to fight the last war.
Speaker 1 02:32
Yeah,
Tim Kilroy 02:33
so they're using AI to to like build the stuff that they've been doing instead of thinking about the stuff that they will be doing, and I and I you know and it's like super and I fall into that all the time because I'm I'm always thinking like, oh, this used to take me a long time and now it doesn't, so therefore it must be better, and so I should do that, but I think I think what we're we're really facing is the fact that the world is just a totally different. It's going to be a totally different place, and I think some of the fundamental mechanics of marketing are changing.
Speaker 1 03:22
Yeah, I can get behind all of that.
Tim Kilroy 03:26
You know, and I think I mean, whenever, whenever, actually, in in my newsletter today, I'm actually writing about this about this particular thing where I saw and I saw these series of ads from different companies that they were all clearly written with AI, and so there's like this sort of very high context, very kind of insider speak approach. Like, so it's like the ad is is is saying things that don't make sense necessarily, unless you know all the stuff that went into it. Because AI is really good at understanding the context that goes into it, but not very good at understanding the context that somebody else might have. Um, and I and I think that we are like we are exchanging the the fundamental premise of what marketing is supposed to be doing for something that is just faster and easier.
Chris DuBois 04:38
Yep, you just got me. I'm doodling now because you just got me thinking. There is something there to the the context piece where it's like AI has a certain amount of context, but then there is like the user's context, and I think it's like a Venn diagram, and where those overlap is like is what you want the ad to or whatever marketing asset you're putting out there that should be like the target. It's not like all of the context. We have it's just like that sliver that overlaps with their context. Yeah, exactly,
Tim Kilroy 05:04
exactly. Now
Chris DuBois 05:05
we merged, and that's a great way I think to.
Tim Kilroy 05:07
And and I think AI is not super good at like empathy or or like AI projects a lot of stuff.
Chris DuBois 05:21
Yep,
Tim Kilroy 05:21
you know, you know it. It's like, oh, I you're you're this is your audience, therefore you must say this thing because I saw that in a Reddit thread, you know, seven months ago, and therefore it is universally true. And you know, and I think I think that we're we're running into this this this space where where as marketers we are like I don't know we're like we're doing extra work and we're being lazy.
Chris DuBois 05:54
Yeah, I can definitely see that. Yes,
Tim Kilroy 05:56
you know like like we're we're building these massive infrastructures to like suck in every single piece of data and every single piece of of you know of like all the calls and all that sort of stuff, only to generate something that's like meh,
Chris DuBois 06:13
right? Yeah, because if you in the past had just done it yourself, even with less context, you would have probably came out with a better result because there was some thought that was going into the actions you were taking. Exactly.
Tim Kilroy 06:28
Yeah. It's yeah. But but you know, like if you can just click a button and it happens, like that's better, right?
Chris DuBois 06:35
Yeah, for someone.
Tim Kilroy 06:36
Yeah.
Speaker 2 06:37
Yeah.
Tim Kilroy 06:37
You know, I mean, yeah. You know, and so I and so and I think that that lots of agencies are investing way too much in. I think they're investing way too much in feeding the machine and not enough in analyzing the stuff that the machine has made.
Speaker 1 06:58
Right. Yep.
Chris DuBois 07:00
All right, I can support that. So, I guess what is the solution to it?
Tim Kilroy 07:06
Well, fucked if I know.
Speaker 1 07:07
Yeah, no, I mean,
Tim Kilroy 07:09
no, no. I mean, obviously, no. I think that I no, that's that's not true. You you know, the longer that I stay in this in the world of marketing, which at this point I started in the 1840s,
Chris DuBois 07:21
I can tell the gray and
Tim Kilroy 07:22
the yeah yeah totally. I did get rid of the mutton chops though, which you know, which I'm I'm a little sad about. But we're going to come back
Chris DuBois 07:29
eventually. Everything it's cyclical, right?
Tim Kilroy 07:32
Yeah. But the longer that I'm in marketing, like the the More clear that fundamentally nothing has changed. You know the tools have changed, the channels have changed, but the the fundamental job has not. And I think that is, and that's still a that's the the job is still incredibly difficult, which is to take a bunch of ideas that a brand has, and a bunch of experiences that an audience has, and finding the overlap where they connect. And and I think that is that is it's certainly data driven, and it's certainly you know it's there's there's certain elements of of you know creating attractiveness and and urgency, but I think that finding that connection is really a a very that's a very human thing, and I think that's what we are forgetting is that although artificial intelligence, you know, like it's it's really freaking smart. I mean, like it figures out shit that I, but like it's missing a really big element of of knowing what it's like to be a human being, and being barraged with messages all the time in every respect, you know, from all aspects of your life, you know, you know, in my Instagram feed, I am likely to see things about men's skincare because I just started treating rosacea. I'm and because I'm of a particular age, I get all sorts of ads about like, holy shit, you're a fat fuck and you're gonna die soon unless you do this Tai Chi exercise on a chair. Fun ads. Yeah, no, those those are great. And then I get the like the the 22 year old marketing bro who's like, dude, you must do it this way because I made $8,000 last month. Therefore, I am a genius, but so. But those are like those are all sorts of, you know. Oh, and I bought a sweater recently, so now I see lots of sweaters.
Speaker 1 10:12
Yeah, that was,
Tim Kilroy 10:14
and it's a it's a really nice sweater. I got
Speaker 1 10:16
it.
Tim Kilroy 10:17
Yeah, I mean, with using cash only and wearing a disguise, so the flock cameras don't see you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So now I see. So I'm seeing lots of ads for sweaters. You know, and but most like it's super hard for brands to understand that that like their target customer. You know the attention that their target customer has for any particular you know brand is is like is very it's you know you get like half a percent of their attention, and I think that AI is terrible at understanding that, and I think that agencies are are forgetting that their primary job is to create something that that you know grabs attention and has some sort of relevant meaning. I mean, other than I did do my Tai Chi chair exercises today. You know, that's super important. Yeah, but you know, it's it's it's got to be meaningful to the audience, and I think that we are we are a little bit like over optimizing and over automating stuff so that we're trying to reduce all the mistakes and the outcome is we are making oatmeal, boring, bland, unflavored out oatmeal. Yeah, yeah. I mean, not even like the good brown sugar kind, right? The stuff you give your kids, you know, or me.
Speaker 1 12:00
Yeah,
Tim Kilroy 12:01
you know, because we we just talked about you know how I'm I'm I'm a fat fuck and I'm going to die according to the ads. So
Chris DuBois 12:08
well, and now you're going to get a bunch of different ads after this. So the that's true. That's true. Which I'm
Tim Kilroy 12:14
sure Riverside is is is actually sending this right in my phone. They're all listening to me.
Chris DuBois 12:19
So I mean, I my oldest daughter had a sleepover a couple weeks ago, and her and this other girl were watching the movie 13 Going on 30, and never seen this movie before. Haven't thought about it ever. Like maybe I heard about it when it came out or something, but I asked my wife, "What what are they watching? And she told me, and I'd come up to the office. I had opened my phone to look something up on YouTube, and of course, the first like short that popped up was from 13 going on 30. I'm like, what are the odds? Like, so they're
Tim Kilroy 12:53
well, 100% because you're coming from the same.
Speaker 1 12:56
Yeah.
Tim Kilroy 12:57
Well, no, it's it's your IP address like this.
Chris DuBois 13:00
They're not listening to you. Yeah. Well, I get different different internets, different, and I don't know. Anyways, but
Tim Kilroy 13:05
they but they they're all tied to a location. Like everyone, it's
Speaker 1 13:08
yeah. Your phone isn't listening. It's it
Tim Kilroy 13:10
would be too data intensive to decode all of that text. It's all yeah. It's all
Chris DuBois 13:16
right. You just like pulled the curtain into yeah wonderful yeah
Tim Kilroy 13:20
no I like. Yeah, it's it's it's it's true. So they're not listening to
Chris DuBois 13:25
Netflix being being tied into YouTube though is pretty. Would still be pretty impressive. Yeah, absolutely.
Tim Kilroy 13:30
Yes, that's that's totally freaky.
Chris DuBois 13:32
But in other other news, so I guess when you look at like agencies actually using AI effectively, I think there are a lot of them right now that are trying to like create their own apps so that they can have like an app of some sort or some tech that they could be selling kind of on the side to say say up with AI. Whether it's like, hey, we're an SEO agency, and so we're going to give you this tool to be able to see how how AI is ranking you in the citations, and now they sell that platform. The where I'm leaning into is more. I think some of those are fine, some of those applications, but rather than selling them, I like the idea of it being like a value add to working with you. So it's like if you are working with us, you get our service, but then we also give you access to all of these things, so that you know now it's like it's it's just a little other reason that someone would want to work with us besides this platform that's probably not going to sell compared to every like everybody can create the same platform, right? So, yep, I'm using it with Atlas. I have a marketing platform I use with all my clients, but it's only if you are a client can you actually get into this and use it. And it's I'm kind of bullish on that concept. What are you?
Tim Kilroy 14:50
And yeah, yeah, and I and I you know I give I so I made a couple of tools myself. I made a discovery call tool and a a sales call review tool. Yep. Yep. And I give those to all my clients. But the so tell me so tell me about Atlas. What what what cool what cool thing did you burn a million tokens on?
Chris DuBois 15:10
Yeah, that's the fun part. I didn't even have to burn that many. So we have basically their position when we when we finish positioning, it all gets locked in inside this, like in a single page, super simple. Same thing. ICP is stored in here. Any marketing tests that we want to run, we get to. We have all the data, like so. Everything from Google Analytics gets moved into here, or like HubSpot, whatever platforms we're using, so that we can then create tests in this platform and decide. Okay, we know. Say it's a landing page that we're going to be working on. We want to just tweak it in order to get this lift in performance. We can track all of it in there, as well as all the tasks that are associated with that test. Then anyone, like all of the users for the from that agency, are in there, so they can actually, you know, project management wise, track that test. But then when we finish it, we can actually track the data in there, and over time, we can see see all the trends on different performance for these tests. For my side, I get to look at all of the data across all clients to find patterns for like what's working right now in marketing, and it'll like pinpoint all the different. You know, for this ICP, these things seem to be doing well. So now, if a new client comes in, I can just deploy the same type of marketing and and see results way faster. But like other things, we got a sitemap tool so that it'll actually show your pillars like for content on the site, and then are all of your posts like linked to that pillar? Like just simple little tools, your calendar for publishing. That's all connected to like your LinkedIn's, everything else. It's an outreach tool, so that when once a week I can pull your ICP contacts from LinkedIn into here, so that the client can just open up this outreach page, click on one of the contacts, it'll bring them to LinkedIn. They leave a message, and then it logs it in the tool as well, so now I can see how much outreach they're doing. What else? We got a bunch of other
Tim Kilroy 17:06
right. So, so, so what you're you're telling me is is like you've built a flock camera for your clients. Yeah. So it started
Chris DuBois 17:13
because I I was I had one client specifically who they needed to be publishing more on LinkedIn, and I came into one meeting. I'm like, "All right, so are we publishing now? And they said, "Yes, we are. We have nailed it. We're 100. Like, we are publishing. Like, "All right, how much did you do last week? I said, "One post. I'm like, "Okay, well, we're getting there, right? Yeah, I mean, like, compared to zero, that is an enormous proven. But I won't. But we had talked about doing three posts, like to get started, and then ramp up to five, and so this was a way of like just having accountability, and then it just kept building from there. And yeah, now there's an MCP in it, so all the clients can like if they're writing a blog for themselves, they can from their like quad code instance or whatever tool they're using can reach out, and it'll pull their ICP, it'll pull their positioning to make sure that everything is coherent, and we're not like having some random marketer on the team is creating something new that doesn't actually match the direction that we need to go in. Yep, yep. And so it's yeah,
Tim Kilroy 18:12
and and and so and by the way, I like I do think that that that sort of like a tool tied to service, I think is is a is a a model that's got some some real benefit. I I do think that you were entirely correct that it's really it's really difficult, if not a fool's errand for an agency to create something that you know is that that works without the agency. I think that's I think that's a I think that I think that is really really difficult, and probably not worth doing.
Speaker 1 19:04
Yeah,
Tim Kilroy 19:05
because they're going to
Chris DuBois 19:06
be competing with like a company that's only doing that.
Tim Kilroy 19:10
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
Chris DuBois 19:12
You're not going to make it.
Tim Kilroy 19:14
Yeah, because you know a VC funded company,
Chris DuBois 19:19
right,
Tim Kilroy 19:19
has just got way more money than you do, and they've got access to things that you don't have, and you know the their world that their world is just different,
Speaker 1 19:30
right?
Tim Kilroy 19:31
You know, you know your your cash flow might be way better than theirs, but their available, you know, their their available ammunition is, you know, they have their stockpiles are way bigger than Pete Hag Seth's, so not even a single reaction to the Pete Hag Seth mention.
Chris DuBois 19:49
I got it. I have to. I'm still serving, so I have to watch what I like. Okay, all right, all right. Yeah, as my retirement goes away.
Tim Kilroy 19:56
Yeah, yeah. So. And you don't do you have to refer to him as dear leader
Chris DuBois 20:04
or no comment. No comment.
Tim Kilroy 20:06
Okay. Though though I I have noticed a lot of hair gel happening with you and um yeah and and how's your nailed the mustache so and and how's your how's your testosterone?
Chris DuBois 20:20
It's a. I'm ready for more. That's a. Let's do it.
Tim Kilroy 20:27
Anyways, we we we digress. So so so so. Where do you think? You know, where do you think the the the like? I I truly Think that as as sort of as I mean, I think it's going to be a long time before there is truly agentic commerce or a you know or agentic purchasing. Just because I don't know. I I cannot imagine my wife saying to Claude, like you know, I I I want to buy this thing. Go do it for me. Like that's I figure I feel like there's a lot of like that that is a bridge that's that's really far for a lot of folks. But I do think that there will be a a place where the interfaces of you know the inner the the purchase interfaces matter less. Yeah, you know, and I and I'm going to like jump in the wayback machine here, but I I just I was looking through some stuff recently, and I looked at an at a blog post that I wrote when I was working at another agency, like back in 2008 or something, in 2009 maybe, where Facebook had just come out with their Facebook stores, and the thinking in the industry was like this could completely and totally disrupt the idea of having your own commerce website, and we have been there a lot of times, so we Facebook did it. Amazon was supposed to do that. You know, Amazon at one point had Amazon sites where you could make up like your own little Amazon doodad store. And I feel like I I do feel like finally the idea of of AI and agentic purchase. like, can make that a little bit more of a reality, and I think that this, like, it it does, but it it does seriously disrupt the the things that we're talking about earlier, the like the human part of marketing, and so I there's a I think if you are a a an an agency who is really AI pilled, like I think that that the world really moves a lot more slowly in terms of changing of of you know people have largely purchased things the same way for I don't know like 200 years you look at something then decide to make a purchase and I don't know that that's going to change a lot sooner. You know, I don't like. I don't feel like there's like there's an imminent change where where where we are suddenly going to not have a person making the decision about what to purchase and what not to purchase. But I do think that there's that that that there there is I think that that the the coming wave for for marketers and agencies specifically is how do we honor both of those things the very human side of advertising where you've got to get that like Venn diagram of what matters To everybody, versus the you know the sort of agentic idea of like it doesn't really freaking matter what the like what the positioning is. We're looking at the product and we're making a decision based on the intrinsic value of that product rather than its position or marketing, or brand, and I think that's really complicated. But I, I think that the, I, I think that the the fundamental, like the the fundamental thing is if. I like. I don't know that there's a there that there's a real world for agencies as we think of them in a in the agentic world of purchasing. I mean, there's it's a different probably a different kind of of of you know different kind of agency. But I think that that I I don't I don't know that that focusing on that human piece is actually going to go away anytime soon. You know, like in the next 50 years.
Chris DuBois 25:30
Yeah, I agree. It is. Yeah, I think the shape of agencies will change, or like what they're doing and stuff. But I do, yeah, I do agree. The agentic purchasing is going to take a lot longer to actually like catch on and use. There is still a ton of resistance to to AI just in general. Like, I mean, half the the mainstream media companies are saying, you know, it's terrible. It's like don't do anything with this, and so everybody who follows those are going to say agree with it, and then the other half are incredibly bullish on it. But they're based on the team that I talked to last week, who's like a multi-billion-dollar corporation that, like, they their team has no idea how to use AI. Like I did basic, like I was talking to them about basic prompting, and they were still like, "Whoa, this is revolutionary. So, like, even there, it's like they're not there. And if people don't understand how to use it, I don't think they're going to trust it at the level that they right right probably should. So, like, you're not going to give it your wallet, right?
Tim Kilroy 26:34
Right, and and and also, you know, for for my my kids are in their early 20s, and they are all AI disbelievers. You know, like it does cool stuff, but it is it's it's a it's a mechanism for fakery,
Speaker 1 26:58
right? Like
Tim Kilroy 26:59
it is it's not to be trusted.
Chris DuBois 27:01
Yep. Actually, my kids saw me using Claude the other day and said, "Oh, you're cheating. I'm like, "Cheating a lot? Like, and like, well, that's what the school is telling them is like, if you use AI, you're cheating. And so, like, yeah. So, I mean, that's how they're coming up with it. And then they, I made some funny pictures for them, and they were like, "Oh, cool! Like, it's not all cheating. But
Tim Kilroy 27:23
well, no, it's like no, actually, what you're teaching them, Christopher, is that cheating is fun,
Speaker 1 27:27
right? I mean, it should be. Yeah, I had to get the call. Yeah, like if
Tim Kilroy 27:31
it's yeah, if cheating is serious, why, like, what's the point, really? Right.
Chris DuBois 27:35
But yeah, I do think there's also just a ton of value in people finding ways to like improve their own life with AI, and then just leaving it there. Like it doesn't have to be something you're selling that you're marketing. It can just be I've made this tool for myself that helps me do X, Y, and Z, and now my I don't have to worry about that. I can go focus on the other stuff that actually requires my mental effort, like here, and so like I mean, one of we were talking right before this. The I built like a tool for tracking all of our home projects. It's just a little app on my phone, and then I have one for tracking like family vacations and stuff like that. Because putting keeping all this in my brain has been too much, and then I like I finish work, and then my wife will ask me a question. I'm like, I have no idea what you're talking about. She's like, we just talked about this, like, yeah, five hours ago during lunch or whatever, and and I have no no recollection of this. And so I'm like, I need to put it somewhere. But now we have it logged, and I can throw in budgets and itineraries and like all these other things. I don't have to think about it anymore, and so I can spend more time focusing on whatever I want to be,
Tim Kilroy 28:44
right? And my wife and I just celebrated our 25th anniversary. Hey, Chris, that's
Speaker 1 28:49
a long time.
Tim Kilroy 28:51
And you got to get better at faking what you know what your wife did,
Chris DuBois 29:00
but she asks really hard questions. She's so good at figuring it out.
Tim Kilroy 29:05
Yeah, yeah, no, but you should feel like, oh, that's like, yeah, I really liked what you said this morning. What was that?
Speaker 1 29:12
You know, yeah, yeah. Like,
Tim Kilroy 29:16
just until like I'm telling you, like you, you got to at least pretend to listen.
Chris DuBois 29:20
We hit 15 years in March, so I still have I still have time. Yeah,
Tim Kilroy 29:26
I mean, I mean, if you're if you're at 15 years, like it's you know, like you've you've been good enough so far,
Chris DuBois 29:32
so far.
Speaker 1 29:33
Yeah. So yeah, the but no,
Tim Kilroy 29:37
I I I agree. Like like this is like this is such a stupid thing. So, I realize that I I I have like I have so many like my my CRM is just full of I don't know like 1000s and 1000s of agencies. And and then when I I look at you know when I look at agencies or you know look at how agencies get discovered, I just thought like all of these places like you know Clutch and whatever those agency directors are all terrible, and so so I I made one, you know, and I don't know how to do any of that, so I did it all with with AI. But one thing that that one of the the one of the things that I I learned like one of the rules that I made was you can only be in this directory. It's called agency field guide. You know, if you have a certain amount of of evidence on your site, you know, like you have to be willing to say, like we worked with this person. If you're not, if you can't say that, or you, or we got these results, and so, and and so when I launched that a few weeks ago, there's a submit your agency page, and all of these agencies started submitting their pages. And first of all, I don't know how they found it because I, whatever, but they did. But I, you know, like the first the first couple of days, I was getting all these agencies, and I was like, "Okay, I got to go check out this site because they weren't in any of the ways that we sourced it. So I have to make sure that these folks are okay and that they're not scummy and skeevy. And then I realized, like, "Oh, I could just have AI do that for me. So we just set up some rules, like if you don't if you don't hit there's 25 things that we look for that I look for and if if you don't hit 15 of them you don't get in and so and so then I just told I I told ChatGPT like please like do this every time someone comes in. Go check out their site. If they have more than 15, you can put them in the directory, and if they have 15 or less, they can't be in the directory. Um, and like that is a really stupid thing. Like that's that is like it's a it's a like a dumb use of automation, but it just took this like vaguely irritating thing off my plate, and so now it just happens automatically. And I and I you know I also built another little doodad to say you know to ask ChatGPT. So look at everybody that you approved last week. Would you know? What did you learn from that? And you know, is there anybody that you know, based on what you saw in other places, that you wouldn't approve? And it's like, oh shit, yeah, like no, I put these people in, and they shouldn't have been. And by the way, I I do get my my. You'll be you you will be happy to know this that my AI tools sweared me.
Speaker 1 33:15
Perfect. Mine do too. Mine fire back. They're yeah, they're
Chris DuBois 33:20
aggressive. Aggressive.
Tim Kilroy 33:21
Yeah. No, that's that's good. I mean, because I like I it it makes me it makes me feel like I'm talking to a person. You know, I yeah. It's always nice
Chris DuBois 33:29
to have
Speaker 1 33:30
a friend up. Yeah,
Chris DuBois 33:32
I feel you. I feel you.
Tim Kilroy 33:34
But yeah, no, I I think that that idea of of of allowing, um, you know, allowing tools to you know hold on to a little bit of context for you so that you don't have to carry it all is is really good. Though I do think that there is a there is a there's a there's a downside to that as well. You know, there are a friend of mine is a college professor, and I we were talking about we were we were talking about something that was in the news that the you know that the the average college student now cannot read a an entire book,
Speaker 1 34:16
and I was like that's extraordinary, and Chief is just like, yeah, it's true. She's an English not professor, right?
Tim Kilroy 34:25
Yeah, she's like, yeah, like I can't, I can't tell my students like read this book by Thursday. It's like they just can't do it.
Chris DuBois 34:34
Man, I wish I'd gone to college now. So I know an English major, so like, yeah, man, me too,
Tim Kilroy 34:41
me too. Yeah,
Chris DuBois 34:42
the amount of reading we had to do.
Tim Kilroy 34:45
Well, no, I, I mean, well, when I was so I didn't go to class a lot. Which, by the way, it's age. Yeah, like it's not. That's that's kids. Like that's not the way to go through college. Though actually, you know what? Don't listen. Yeah, no, it's it's no, it's fine. It's like go like that's how you got to go. That's fine because the classes are done, you know, just the conversations that matter. Like, anyways, but but yeah, no, I but I I do think that there is a there is a a reliance on like there is there is the the risk of outsourcing your brain a little bit um that that happens, yeah, yeah. But and and I think agencies do that plenty. That you know that they were like, oh yeah, we like we have to do it this way because the you know because the we looked at all the data and it says the only way to optimize is this, and I think that that there is a there is a point where that where that fails. You know, several I guess it was probably close to a year ago now. This guy Venet Mehra, who was the chief growth officer of Chime, the bank, wrote this this LinkedIn post that I've I've I've written about it in my newsletter, where he says like what what brands really want from agencies. One, he said he wants them to be AI native, so the the agency can explore all the stuff for the brand before the brand in you know you know before the brand like so the agency can help bring the brand into the future, but he he also he said this really interesting thing. He says he doesn't want agencies to be campaign factories. Like churning out campaigns is not what he needs from the agency. He could do that himself. What he wants is for them to be culture factories. So bring the culture that their target audience is in. You know, bring or the sorry that their target audience is experiencing and bringing that to the brand. Yeah, because you know he knows like the Chime knows how to create a great banking experience, but they don't know the cultural influences that impact their target audience.
Speaker 1 37:13
Right, right.
Tim Kilroy 37:14
And I think, and I think that is a, I think like that is, in in a in a like in a nutshell, I think that encapsulates everything we're talking about. That AI is really great at some stuff, but there is this essential human piece where where there's a like the understanding that can only come from being a human being is mandatory.
Speaker 1 37:48
Yeah, I like that. Actually, send me that post when after that as well. Yeah, that's a like to read that one. But
Chris DuBois 38:00
yeah, I think there's something also to be said for, like, we do have all this context that like AI is able to process, but how many people are letting AI just make decisions for them versus compiling all of that context into some sort of framework so that they can make decisions just faster? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Go
Tim Kilroy 38:22
ahead. Well, no, I think I think that is that that's the that's the crux. That like that's the outsourcing of your brain, right? You know, like like fine enough. Like if you think of AI as your assistant who can go gather all the context, cool. But if you're outsourcing the part where you where you think where you're saying like oh like the data says this my experience says that and you know and this thing this ephemeral thing that I'm feeling says a different thing and I've put all those together into a into a different solution but I do think that an awful lot of people are like well yeah no that's it. Like the the page ought to be that way because that's how the AI wrote it. I mean, if the AI doesn't know, how am I supposed to know?
Speaker 1 39:11
Right, and that's where you lose.
Chris DuBois 39:14
Dun dun dun. Yeah, but yeah, I got in my CRM now. I've got it built in. Like, there's multiple pages for strategy and like for my revenue tracking all that, but it's just feeding all of the information it has access to into specific dashboards I've created so that I could look at this one page and any given day and say, okay, here's the current state of my business. This is what I believe I need to be doing. You know, here are the things I should care about. I don't have to go find all of that information because I've used AI to now set it up so I can just see it, but I still get to be the guy, you know, kind of steering the ship. Yeah, I've seen a lot of agencies kind of not doing that, and then they get frustrated with why things aren't working. It's like, well, because AI is going to default to the average, right? Like it's it's going to do what. The best practices and what everybody else is doing, and so it's not taking in necessarily what what makes you unique that you should be leading with because others aren't using that because it's unique to you. Yeah,
Tim Kilroy 40:12
exactly, exactly. So,
Tim Kilroy 40:14
and and I think and you know, you know, in the quest for optimization, you know, like every ad looks the same, every website looks the same, you know, the same phrases show up. That's why one of one of the things that I I built as a lark was this thing called the Wawa detector, which is you know, which is you know a reference to the adults in Charlie Brown cartoons. You know where they'll go wah wah wah wah wah, and it's and I I it's made for agencies, and it looks at your website and it says like, here's the stuff, here's all the stuff that you say that sounds exactly like everybody else, and your and all people who read it here is wah wah wah wah wah wah wah, and and if you rely on AI, you're gonna wah wah all the time, and you know, and unlike the, you know, unlike the the the great wawa, you know, gas station convenience store chain in the Mid Atlantic, which is a they're awesome, but you don't want to you don't want to be a wala. Like you, you like there's there's this whole marketing agency thing is a drive not to be the most efficient or the most technically advanced. It's to be the most unforgettable because nobody can possibly buy anything, which is fundamentally our job. We're trying to get people to buy things. Like if nobody, if nobody's paying attention to you, they cannot consider you for a purchase of any sort,
Speaker 1 42:08
right?
Tim Kilroy 42:10
And I think I think the the over reliance on AI just makes you more forgettable Because AI, like it, it rounds off all of the sharp edges.
Chris DuBois 42:28
So it's a let's start to bring this one in. If 8020 rule, then what few tasks would you recommend an agency do so that they're not over reliant on AI and they are commanding attention and. yeah, doing all the things that they need
Tim Kilroy 42:44
to do. So, so I I would actually really focus on on a a handful of things, finding data. AS really good at going out and like Finding stuff, you know, if you like, if you're doing research about a particular company or a particular audience, you can say like, go find all the stuff in Reddit and go scrub some podcast and go figure out what's in the like, and so AI can give you an extraordinary conglomeration of of information in a really short period of time, and it's you know, let's call it like 95% good. You know, there's 5% of stuff that it doesn't understand and makes mistakes, but you know, so I think I think finding information and categorizing it is really, really, it's really excellent at that, and so, and that can, and and I think people are fairly terrible at that. So I think that's a place where, if you're going to over-index on AI, it's like you using it as a as a tool to create context for yourself, and then the the other thing that I would really use AI for, and you know, it is it's really good at this, and is you know sort of like, what's the stuff that I didn't hear? Like, what are the things that I'm missing? Like here's what I think, and here's what's going into my decision. You know, challenge me, and I think AI is actually fairly good at that. But writing, I don't know that you should let AI do very much of that. I mean, some of it's fine. Like, there's some writing that just doesn't matter. Like writing whatever instructions, or who cares? And I do think that you know AI allows you to to to to like do stuff with. With output that is that's really interesting. Like I like I can now edit videos when I don't know what the fuck I'm doing there, but the script helps me a lot. Then you know it's fantastic. But I think that I think that there's a but I think that anything where you are where you are following what AI says, like this, is a good design. This is the right idea. This is the conclusion that you ought to make. I think anything where you are when where you are allowing the AI to make a decision for you instead of helping you make a decision. I think that's the that's the place to to stop. So you know, it's a perfect example. Your AI trip tracker isn't telling you where to go on family vacation, is it? It might tell you what to like. It it might help you figure out what you're going to do when you get there. But it's what's back.
Tim Kilroy 45:57
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 45:58
Yeah, yeah.
Tim Kilroy 45:59
You know, and and you know whether or not you should buy those Disney Fast Pass doodads or not.
Speaker 1 46:04
Yeah, yeah.
Tim Kilroy 46:05
Which, by the way, I I I've worked with the travel brand. You don't have to.
Chris DuBois 46:11
Yeah, my wife's very good at doing Disney planning. So all right, okay,
Tim Kilroy 46:15
good. Wait, are you secretly a Disney adult?
Chris DuBois 46:17
No, we're not. But my wife really likes being able to. She went to Disney a handful of times as a kid, and is very good at like choreographing the day. So like we never have to wait more than 30 minutes in line. Like she just knows that this time the like she's like AI for creating a an itinerary at Disney. Okay, all right. These rides are always busy from nine to 10, so let's do it this afternoon at these times. We can avoid the sun at this time by doing, right? Because
Tim Kilroy 46:48
because you're all you're all pasty white mainers, right?
Chris DuBois 46:52
And that's yeah,
Tim Kilroy 46:52
and and and you might spontaneously human combust. I know I totally get that.
Chris DuBois 46:56
Yeah, 100%
Tim Kilroy 46:57
It's a real risk. I know. Yeah,
Chris DuBois 47:00
but uh, and
Tim Kilroy 47:02
so what? What? And so let me throw the the same question back at you. Well, like, what's what would you say, or the what's the 8020 for you?
Chris DuBois 47:09
So I think it's figuring out what, like, using AI as an intern to just like, how do I make my life easier? So you would not trust an intern to like go into a client engagement and make all these decisions and do all this critical work, like and even if you gave them a task, you would still go review that task heavily before giving it to the client. I think treating it like the stuff like that, where it's these are all things that I need done, but I want to save the thinking. Like I'm not going to outsource the main thing, which is my brain. Like, and if you're in a service based industry, it's like we're knowledge workers, right? Like we're we have to think, yeah, and that's what sets us apart. And so, I think that's first. It's treating your AI like like an intern, and then if you're going to make tools and systems, figure out how, like, how can you show your effort, even if you are using AI for various things? And so, for example, like in in Atlas, the ability to show their sitemap and like the pillars and all the pages linking those pillars, and how many are they all connected to each other, and what's are they indexed? Are they performing? Like that's something I care about when I help an agency because I do think that like SEO is still going to be there, but more importantly, now AI searchability is a critical piece, and so we have to get this right in order to do it. I use AI for a bunch of like help with that. Otherwise, I'm combing through pages and like instead I can just say, "Hey, find me what pages don't have links to their pillar page, and like, because that's a simple thing for indexing, right? To help with with searchability, so I can just say that. But then me saying I'm using AI to do all of this kind of for a lot of people reduces the value of that exercise because they see it as less effort. They're like, "Well, then I could just ask AI to do it, like you could, but it's not trained the same way as like that I have at all.
Tim Kilroy 49:05
And also, but but also the the bigger like you could, but you didn't,
Chris DuBois 49:11
right? So why didn't you? Yeah, that's a because you didn't know, and so you would be reliant on some other best practices that people are putting out, which means you're going to rank average like the same as everybody else instead of
Speaker 1 49:24
like
Chris DuBois 49:24
take pulling the experience I have from running an agency where we did SEO and stuff like this and using that knowledge for how do we actually get you to the top of the rankings here, and so I'm trying constantly with AI if I am using it like how do I show my work so that people can see the effort that went into this? And it's not just a hand wave. Oh, AI did it. It's like, yeah, but you're getting all of this value. And so agencies, I think, should be thinking about it the same way because, like, I had clients who their their client has come to them and said, why can't you just do this cheaper or faster with AI? And so, well, because we're still doing all of these things, like yes, it can help with this, but like you're still paying for us to like go in and think about to know what to do with it, right?
Speaker 1 50:09
Right. I mean, so it's
Chris DuBois 50:10
showing your effort. I think finding ways is going to be more and more important in not only keeping clients but like getting new ones to be able to show them how you doing?
Tim Kilroy 50:20
Yeah, you know, our our you know we are both part of the the David C Baker fan club, and he's got this this like this great the this you know great way to think about your agency. Like there's two rooms in it. There's the strategy room and the execution room, yeah, yeah. And for the last 50 years, agencies have mostly been paid for the work that happens in the execution room, like making the image, you know, resizing all. Like it's and it's all been very, it's all been very task driven. And I think that the that the idea of of you know I think AI now allows or mandates that you spend much more time in the strategy room because the execution part is does take less time, and I think that that's. I think there's a lot of agencies that are are they're going to learn that lesson in a difficult way.
Chris DuBois 51:30
Yeah, and I do think the future is how can I lead with a strategy and then deliver all of the execution as well. Because it is easier, it means I can take on more of that, but it still requires me having a clear strategy and being the expert on that side. Whereas, like before, you kind of it was like we almost saw so like they were all tactically like execution driven,
Tim Kilroy 51:53
and then everyone
Chris DuBois 51:53
started making the shift to strategy entirely, and then people started. But like clients were basically getting all of this strategy and all these ideas, and then it's like, what do I do? Like, I don't have enough time to do all of these things, and so like AI has kind of given a shortcut to some of that. But if the agency can say, "I'll do all of it, like this is a like I can do the strategy and deliver on that strategy for you, right? Yeah, I I I do
Tim Kilroy 52:18
think the the the big like the the big disconnect is marketers are not used to paying for strategy because agencies have given it away for free.
Speaker 1 52:32
Yep,
Tim Kilroy 52:32
and and I think that there's that that they there's a fundamental shift in the value proposition of knowing what to do and why to do it, and not necessarily. And I think the the value of knowing how to do something is lower. Yeah, you know how how to you know how to how to make the machine, you know how how to create the output. I think that's I think that's that's less that's less valuable than it once was. But knowing what to do and why to do it is significantly more valuable because you know the the democratization of of output has just you know it makes all output shittier.
Chris DuBois 53:15
Yep. All right. With that, oh thank God we solved it. Like it's done. Yeah. Well, we'll see. We'll see what questions come from the from this podcast going live. But last two questions for you first. What book do you recommend every agency owner should read?
Tim Kilroy 53:31
Oh, okay. So this is not this is not a a a business book. All right. Do it. Yeah. It's a it's a it's a book. Oh, I'm blanking it, so it's it's called it's called Trust by Hernan Vasquez, and it's it's actually and it's the and it's this it's this it's this story of a guy who's a a he's a business tycoon in the 20s, but it's told from three different perspectives, and it's it's stunning, and the takeaway for agency owners is that the context with which you tell a story or hear a story matters so much, and so this this actually ties right into the the whole idea of of you know marketing being essentially humane that storytelling is highly contextual and so if you're thinking about how to make your marketing work better is you really have to understand the context of you know whoever's speaking and whomever is listening. Last question is where can people find you? timkilroy.com. Spent a lot of time coming up with that domain. Also, I have a twice weekly newsletter. At agencyinnercircle.com, and if um and if you would like um your your agency to be listed at in the agency field guide, go to agencyfield guide.com.
Chris DuBois 55:14
All right, you're good at domain names. I like it. Yeah, no,
Tim Kilroy 55:17
yes, really, really, really. You know, a lot of thought, a lot of insight. You know, creating whatever is cheapest. Yeah, exactly.
Chris DuBois 55:28
But anyway, hey, thanks again for joining three episodes now. So we'll have to line up a fourth at some point. Yeah, I know, but I think the fourth one, like we're gonna have to do something big. Yeah, I'll bring in some balloons and stuff, and we can. Yeah. Okay. All right. Good deal, man. All right. Bye. That's the show, everyone. You can leave a rating and review, or you can do something that benefits you. Click the link in the show notes to subscribe to Agency Forward on Substack. You'll get weekly content, resources, and links from around the internet to help you drive your agency forward.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai