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For long-form interviews, news, and commentary about the WordPress ecosystem. This is the companion show to The WP Minute, your favorite 5-minutes of WordPress news every week.
Matt Medeiros (00:02.486)
Everybody welcome back to the WP minute special guest today Jared Rethman. Jared, welcome to the program.
Jared Rethman (00:08.964)
Thank you Matt, thanks for having me on WP Minute.
Matt Medeiros (00:12.298)
So I was just scouring my LinkedIn feed a couple weeks ago, and you popped up in the algorithm. I see that you've been working on something called WPSignal.io. I thought it was very interesting the way that you had framed it. I reached out and I said, hey, wouldn't it be great to chat with Jared to learn a little bit more about this? You do have
quite a seasoned background in WordPress. Again, cheating and having my LinkedIn open. You've started at Tenup many years ago. You worked at Automatic for a little bit, and now you've built, of course, WP Signal and Worldhouse. And we want to talk all about that stuff today. So, for those of folks that don't know who you are, how do you sum up the professional career in WordPress for Jared?
Jared Rethman (01:11.088)
Cool, well thanks for that introduction. So first and foremost I'm a dad and a husband and I've been in the WordPress game for over 15 years. Started out in the publishing space, back in South Africa.
And then was fortunate enough to land a couple of gigs with US based companies, Tainup being one of them many moons ago, as you said. And after that, worked a little bit in the crypto space. After that, then I went and worked back back into WordPress at Automatic. And that's pretty much wrapped up beginning of last year.
and I was fortunate enough to have a couple of clients reaching out to me for some extra work and decided to start my own company, Waldhaus.
kind of like a boutique little agency where we service predominantly WordPress, touching on more of the AI sort of engineering space at the moment. And I'd say a little over a year ago, decided to, I got wind that it was gonna be the real-time collaboration, getting introduced into Core. And it got me thinking about...
just some of the limitations that come with a with traditional WordPress stack, the Lemp stack and knowing that there isn't really a formal journey to get to real time behavior on a WordPress stack. I, the WP signal was birthed from the idea of creating real time infrastructure for WordPress sites, which would allow
Jared Rethman (03:02.992)
real-time collaboration to be a lot more smooth and stable. That's been put onto the back burner. But over and above the real-time collaboration, at its core, WP signal is a word socket, a web socket relay. And what that boils down to is that you can make send off HTTP requests to WP signal and have those messages
send back to the client of your website in real time using websites. So yeah, I've kind of been in the last few months exploring what that means and what sort of capabilities that can give to a WordPress site. Yeah.
Matt Medeiros (03:51.17)
Yeah. I want to break apart that or unpack a lot of that stuff. I realize I dumbed it down to something that is probably too, you know, too minuscule of a feature, right? When I first had seen this, I was like, we can do things like maybe build and obviously, correct me if I'm wrong, but a tool like WP Signal would allow a developer to build something like a chatbot.
in WordPress. Am I getting that right? Like it's giving them the infrastructure, the layer to maybe I want to build a chat bot, maybe I want to interface with an agent to my WordPress site. If that's correct, help me unpack that more. Like what are the capabilities that something like WP Signal can unlock for a developer?
Jared Rethman (04:40.432)
Cool, yeah. So I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head. It's that real time behavior. If you've ever been on a financial website and you see those financial tickets where the digits are changing all the time, that's happening through a real time connection to the website. So WP Signal was...
and is built for developers to be able to give them the capabilities of building something like a chatbot. But it's not limited to chatbots. A chatbot...
a chat is, or the way that we've that I've created this plugin is it's it's it's really pushing the boundaries of what that real time behavior looks like. Having typing into a message and then on the other on the receiving end, seeing that someone is typing immediately, kind of like what you would see inside iPhone messenger or WhatsApp. That's all happening through a.
dedicated web socket connection between the client and webs and WP signals infrastructure. I mean the possibilities are or are kind of endless. I kind of see a lot of value within the e-commerce space.
Changing inventory over here and someone on your website seeing that there something is out of stock and before they leave your website They can you change the inventory and it immediately appears while they are still visiting your site and haven't everything from from that type of experience to
Jared Rethman (06:19.94)
I don't know, a flash sale, Black Friday, those types of things, those immediate. So say for instance, if a visitor is on your site and this is the last page they're gonna see, they get to the end of the page and they leave. What that real time behavior allows you to do is kind of send them a little tidbit to keep them on your website to maybe direct them to another page or another product.
And I see real value in the publishing space where breaking news might happen, where you're reading an article and a breaking news pop-up shows up. That's all through, can happen through, relatively easily through WP Signal.
Matt Medeiros (07:04.269)
What does the I want to just shift gears just a touch on like the sustainability of your business when you or for this product like when you look at this product do you go what I guess the direct question is is what's the moat what's the moat for your product which is a dangerous phrase these days through the lens of AI of like you know what's the differentiator what's the value add of a product because I feel like so many people
are either threatened or have already been threatened by AI replacing their, let's say, utility plugin. So what's the moat behind this product? Could WooCommerce ship this in its core? Do you think about something like that? And I guess what's the value add if they do ship it? Like, what could you do more that maybe WooCommerce or WordPress at its core wouldn't touch?
Jared Rethman (07:56.379)
So at its core, it's really just an infrastructure layer. Any hosting company, anyone with technical know-how in a couple of months could probably build something like WP Signal. WooCommerce shipping with a web socket or service side, mean, service end to fence capabilities is...
possible, I think they might do, I mean, they could potentially do it, but I would see the vast majority, 99 % of hosting companies don't support WebSockets and server-sent events. So there's that, kind of like that niche, the moat that you were mentioning, that exists, and that's really at its core the value add from WP Signal.
Matt Medeiros (08:47.063)
Yeah.
Yeah, along those lines, you know, there's just a lot of chatter on Twitter, on LinkedIn. I guess I'll start from the top of like the demise of WordPress, of course, right? Like everyone's just like, I don't think WordPress can survive this AI phase that we're going through. There's so much competition. don't fully buy into that. I'm just, you know, reading what people are sort of like.
Jared Rethman (09:13.648)
Hmm.
Matt Medeiros (09:16.533)
where that noise is on socials. And then you kind of drill it down a little bit more to some of the product owners and the stakeholders in the WordPress space, who are also saying things like, yeah, my, plugin sales are down. There's a higher level of churn. I'm worried about customers replacing my plugin by just talking to their cloud code account. There's those types of things. How do you see, I mean, there's a lot to unpack there, but
But how do you see the defense of WordPress moving forward? Is it WordPress and AI? Is it WordPress and some other stack for the future? Or can the future hold like what WordPress has been for nearly the last 20 years, which is like, hey, throw everything into WordPress. I could build something really robust with a WP signal and customizing WordPress to make my own custom app or whatever that might be. Where do you land in the defense of WordPress?
through this new AI era that we find ourselves in.
Jared Rethman (10:20.814)
Good question. I think over the years, I've seen a lot of this type of chatter like WordPress is dead. This new system or framework is gonna kill WordPress. It's the WordPress killer. I think AI has real potential to disrupt that market and we've already seen stuff like N-dash come to light.
But I think at the moment, I think it's hype. Personally, this is how I feel about it. I feel like it's really hyped up right now. And we've got a lot of vibe coders thinking that they can build the next WooCommerce or Yoast plugin. I think to a certain degree, if you don't really care about the code and the optimization and how it runs, I think that's to a certain degree can be true. But there is a lot of...
a lot of things that you can't learn through vibe coding, like when your site goes down and there's a white screen of death and it's because of a syntax error inside your plugin. I think those calluses and that scar tissue takes time to learn and kind of keeps you really interested in doing.
these really interesting hard technical challenges and overcoming them and rinse and repeat. And as a developer, that's kind of what keeps me interested in and staying a WordPress developer. And I don't think that everyone's got that. I think.
I think once the hype's over, I think there are gonna be outliers where there will be vibe coders that kind of move towards having a higher technical understanding of WordPress and kind of take on that engineering developer role. But I think for the vast majority, think plugin sales will go down because, I mean, again, you could vibe code something.
Jared Rethman (12:24.826)
where you can achieve that. It's an interesting landscape at the moment. I'm a little uncertain of what's gonna happen, but I do think there's a lot of hype involved, personally.
Matt Medeiros (12:34.797)
Yeah. This is something that I feel maybe not at this level or at this extreme, extreme in like short amount of time. WordPress has always gone through this ever since I got into WordPress, was late 2006 and then started an agency mid 2007. But we've seen these phases of like when the Envato theme marketplace came out and, you know, for years,
Jared Rethman (13:02.34)
Cheers.
Matt Medeiros (13:04.717)
years. mean, yeah, for a short few years, people are like, I got to customize a WordPress site. I have to build a theme. I'm hand coding all of this, obviously. And then there's like the dawn of Envato themes. now web masters back then or web designers back then, all they had to do was buy a theme for $79, $59. And suddenly they're a web designer, right? They found this thing, they buy it, they implement it. Boom, they can start.
a web design agency. Fast forward a few years, page builders come out, right? And now suddenly people are like, I'm a quasi web developer slash front end developer. I can build things. I can move things around. And even before that, like when you started to learn how to just install WordPress, you had to kind of understand I've got a database, MySQL. I've got this coding language, PHP, and there's HTML and CSS.
I kind of got to understand this stuff and slap these together in a hosting account. And we've seen this, you know, time and time again of like the disruption of shortening that gap to build something and AI just accelerates that. That's just a long way of me getting to, I'm sort of torn. Like one of the best things about WordPress for all of these years have been those milestones that people could take it off the shelf, learn how it works.
and do something with it, whether that was to unpack it and write their own custom code, whether that was to buy a theme off the shelf, whether that is to get a page builder and start their own design business. It has enabled people to do a lot of cool things. I'm worried about that compression of AI and how people will never have to learn how to unpack these things again. That's like a real value for WordPress and open source to be like, I see it.
Jared Rethman (14:52.442)
Right.
Matt Medeiros (14:58.933)
I can unpack it, I can learn from it, and I can go multiple ways with this new knowledge. That AI just says, yeah, you don't even need that anymore. Let me just do it for you and skip to the finish line. And that's a real worry for me. So no real direct question there, but I wonder if you have those thoughts of that nostalgia of WordPress and how that shifts people from learning these days.
Jared Rethman (15:22.032)
Oh yeah. Funny you mentioned the VADA. I remember that disruption. yeah. It's been an interesting few decades to be honest. And I come from, I originally started out with Flash ActionScript and we all know how that ended. I think you're onto something. think that, you know, and going back to what you said about learning what a database is, that took...
That took a few days to learn to make that connection of how it all fits together.
you know, as you said, that's AI is just narrowing that down and there is that important for them to know? I don't know. I don't think I don't think it is. I think it's becoming less and less important. My wife, who's a she's a product owner. She is just vibe coding the crap out of everything. And and I speak to her about these things and
She built an app and I'm like, how are you saving this? How are you saving this data? How are you keeping up the context, the memory? How are you doing all of that? And she's like, well, I'm saving it to a markdown file. So like the database became the markdown file became the database. And like, to me, that'd be like, no, you got to throw in like SQL or do something legit here.
Matt Medeiros (16:45.741)
Yeah, yeah, we have to have global redundancy. We don't even need that stuff yet.
Jared Rethman (16:53.828)
Right. And for her, it didn't really matter. And she's still getting the value of what it is she's trying to using the tools that she has at her disposal. So I don't know. think those really technical understanding of things is still going to be really important, at least for the next five to 10 years. But I think it's becoming less and less important.
like WordPress core move towards having AI connectors inside the admin. Like there was a core decision to do that. And then we're gonna get a lot more slop, like AI slop articles. I don't know, it's a really interesting time and yeah, very nostalgic. Everything you made me think of right now.
Matt Medeiros (17:48.238)
On the AI connectors thing, again, this is another slice off the negative sentiment of WordPress pie that I see on social media. A lot of folks are just like, hey, I'm going to jump to that M dash. And by the way, I haven't seen anything really substantial come from M dash, or at least it's not hitting my algorithm recently. But anyway, you see these folks who are, just like when Gutenberg came out, which was a milestone, obviously, in WordPress time.
Jared Rethman (17:58.043)
Thank
Matt Medeiros (18:17.449)
where was just like a lot of people were up in arms about Gutenberg and they were just like, I'm out. I'm going to go try something else. They were staunchly against maybe JavaScript or how it was all being developed or decided on and they moved to a new tool, whatever. And I think maybe we're having that same thing now where people are like, OK, AI is here. I've been using WordPress for 20 years. I'm out. I need to go find a new shiny object. But a lot of criticism is, well, I just want to be able to open up cloud code and chat to my website and build it like
moving things in the site editor or in Gutenberg. That's the thing of the past. I just want to chat with it. And WordPress simply doesn't do that out of the box right now. The question to you is like, how do you like, do you feel like WordPress is moving fast enough? Too fast? Because I'm of the mindset that we're just just going to turn that corner and we will have that talk in plain English.
Jared Rethman (18:57.125)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Medeiros (19:15.401)
MCP connection up to WordPress will be easy-ish soon. And I think we just need to turn that corner and like people are just gonna look at WordPress and go, I can just, now I can just talk to it just like I do with a static site with Cloud Code or M-Dash or Astro or whatever product. What's your thoughts on how fast or not WordPress is moving for this AI era?
Jared Rethman (19:34.256)
Mm-hmm.
Jared Rethman (19:40.977)
Yeah, I think it's, I mean, they're moving at breakneck speeds when it comes to AI. I like the, I kind of like the approach that they took with the connectors. I think that's going to give some breathing room to developers and...
some opportunities to be able to kind of capitalize on that, you know. So like right now you can't talk in plain English to have it build a site. can, there are various things that you can do and whatever plugins you have installed and the capabilities that that plugin grants you. I think there is, I think there's going to be a few interesting months ahead where we're going to see other plugin developers launch these new plugins that are going to make that process a lot easier.
I've come across one or two interesting plugins that you're talking plain English in a separate window and it goes straight into the block editor but it creates block markup for you in a beautiful presentable way. But again, it required that intermediary to be able to facilitate that. I think there's still room for plugin developers to capitalize on that.
Matt Medeiros (20:52.919)
Yeah. Skip.
Jared Rethman (20:53.934)
Maybe in the short term, maybe it's going to change pretty quickly.
Matt Medeiros (20:57.869)
Yeah, I think that, I mean, certainly AI, we do live in a bubble where we're like, we're the early adopters, even though we probably, mean, specifically me, I guess speaking for myself, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but.
Like I use Claude code every day. I'm building stuff all the time, like, and I still feel like I'm behind. Like, I feel like I'm behind. But I know, like, the rest of the world is like Claude code. I don't even know what you're talking about. Like, what is this thing you speak of? Right. So I know that the average, let's say, business person who maybe people are afraid are going to start building their own websites, they're not going to touch this stuff. And ultimately, at the end of the day, they're probably still going to hire somebody to just be like, OK, even if you use AI, you just go do it.
I need to build houses, right? That's what I do. You go build the website, I need to build a house. Or I'm a publisher at a big media site, we need to create the content. We don't have time to build a website for ourselves, though we could. So anyway, I think that we have some time. And I think that WordPress can sort of live in that for a little while.
Jared Rethman (22:02.864)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Medeiros (22:11.725)
But here's my last working theory, and then I want to get back to talking about WP Signal. I think that what we'll see is probably, we will see the percentage of WordPress shrink, right, in terms of like that 45, 44, 43 % that's been around for quite some time. And I actually think it's a good thing, even though it might be a detriment to the WordPress economy.
But I think it's a good thing because I think what will land on is the use case for WordPress, which has been the struggle for like 20 years. Like, what is this thing? Who should be using it? Who's the best use case for this? It's been a general tool for a lot of people, right? From bloggers to folks like you and I who are building solutions for customers, to e-commerce stores, to the portfolio site. WordPress has always struggled with that identity.
Jared Rethman (22:43.578)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Medeiros (23:06.423)
And I think that this is an opportunity where WordPress can land on an identity and like be an open source tool for a thing. I don't know what the thing is yet, but I think it will be a thing soon. And that's just my own thoughts. I don't know if you, because you have a breadth of knowledge. Like you've seen large media scale, large scale media sites at TenUp and your other jobs.
Jared Rethman (23:30.096)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Medeiros (23:31.725)
And I just think that maybe there's an identity that WordPress needs to find and this might be the cause of that. I don't know if you have any thoughts on that.
Jared Rethman (23:41.585)
I mean, as you were talking, was like, it's such an interesting question, like whether it has its identity. I mean, it kind of did. It was the blogging platform and then custom post types came around and then the REST API happened and then that became like an application framework. I've got several clients that hit the REST API through their mobile apps. So it's, I don't know if it would ever find it's...
and like a granular identity. I think it's gonna be this general purpose kind of CMS solution for a while. I mean, what are the alternatives like Drupal, M-Dash, Payload, or one of those types of like headless solutions? I don't know. think there's too much experience, too big of a community to...
for it to go anywhere anytime soon. I do see that, as you said, that market share, I do see it shrinking, but I don't see specifically people jumping ship, leaving WordPress to go to another solution. I just see an influx, a plethora of new sites hitting the market, like these Astro sites and whatever it may be, whatever Claude decides is the best solution.
Matt Medeiros (25:02.477)
Yeah, yeah, whatever cloud makes you build and then we're all following that. Along the same lines again, I wanna go back to WP Signal for a moment. Some ideas just popped into my head. When real-time collaboration started to get developed, in core WordPress that is, did you see that as an opportunity?
for WP Signal, like when you maybe first had the idea before you even started building this product, and when it got pulled from 7.0, did you jump for joy? Or did you say like, no, this is not good for me? Like, how do you see competing or augmenting the real-time collaboration with WP Signal, if at all?
Jared Rethman (25:34.234)
Mm-hmm
Jared Rethman (25:50.349)
So the birth and the idea, the concept of WP signal was birthed from the real time collaboration initiative. So in the early buildup towards version seven, was a lot, mean, I was working at breakneck speed trying to get this plugin launched in time for version seven. But as I was following along, I started to notice that this wasn't really gonna happen just because of.
the performance issues that come with real-time collaboration and just hammering the DB to keep both browsers in sync and add, that's on two people, add three people, add four, five, six people. Then you've got one issue with the plugin inside and the block editor which can crash the entire editor. it's, I kind of had the feeling that it wasn't gonna make it.
But then I started to, like I mentioned, explore the possibilities of what that real-time behavior can kind of give a WordPress owner, a WordPress site owner. And then I started to look into the bi-directional chat. even created, I recently created a poker game that you can play between two WordPress logged-in users. And now I'm starting to explore and...
create examples of what you can do with e-commerce. So I'm augmenting it in that way. But I'm still closely following the real-time collaboration initiative. I don't believe it's going to make it in 7.1. I think it's going to still be, I don't know if we'll make it in this year, but we'll see.
Matt Medeiros (27:32.759)
From your product perspective though, when real-time collaboration does hit, if at all, is WP Signal set to augment that experience? Like in terms of like your own marketing messaging, are you able to say, okay, now that WordPress Core has this, I can bring this experience 10 times for you, like with all this other stuff that I can add to it. Is that the positioning for a product like yours?
Jared Rethman (27:56.177)
Absolutely, yeah. the lovely folks who've been working on real-time collaboration built it in and using a provider architecture where you can as a provider, as a WebSocket real-time collaboration, I mean a real-time WebSocket relay, I can just plug into that provider architecture and instead of using the polling mechanism that's implemented. essentially there's this HTTP polling
mechanism that exists within real-time collaboration and it's literally just sitting there hammering the DB every, I think it's currently set to three seconds. So 90 % of those messages are empty because it's saying has anything changed, has anything changed. What the WebSocket Relay allows is that you've got this open connection and only when things change, only when things need to be sent, are messages sent across that wire.
Yeah, I kind of lost my thought there, my train of But basically that's how it's automating it.
Matt Medeiros (29:00.075)
Yeah, yeah.
Matt Medeiros (29:05.387)
Yeah, I mean, I know from obviously I'm not a developer, but I vibe code a lot of things. And early on when I started using Cloud Code, probably a couple of years ago at this point, One of the first things I started to work on was something for podcasting, right? Like a way to communicate with you right now and have like a list of questions that you could see. And as we went through them, I could check them off and you could kind of see where we.
lived in this conversation. Not the best way that I like to hold interviews, but it was just an idea I was kind of playing with. And I learned quickly about trying to sync multiple browsers. And it wasn't as easy as me just, you know, typing some things. But what I found were like, well, you can answer this question, too, because maybe this is where you're thinking there are like hosted. I guess like WebSocket companies, right, or like ways to.
Jared Rethman (29:40.144)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Medeiros (30:01.527)
There are companies that will host this type of infrastructure to push messages and states around to different browsers. Is that a thing that you would eventually maybe get into with a product like this and not do the flat plug-in pricing? Because I'm looking at your pricing page, I see a lot of your higher tiers are still to be determined with a contact us button. So how do you think about the scale of the business when you think long term?
Jared Rethman (30:21.646)
Yeah.
Jared Rethman (30:29.808)
Right, so like I mentioned a little bit earlier that this is built for developers and right now it's just a passion project. I'm still trying to onboard users and until it starts costing me money, I don't really see the need to change that pricing page and it might stay for free forever. It's just a really cool, the way I look at it, it's just a really cool thing.
that I find a lot of value in and I see myself using it a lot going forward. But I do see, so there are other companies, web socket relay companies like Pusher is one of them. So Pusher is just like a general, you can through any sort of architecture use Pusher. I wanted to create WP signal that had worked really well within.
Matt Medeiros (31:07.533)
Push her, right, that's one of them, yep.
Jared Rethman (31:22.992)
It's sort of the way that you're comfortable and familiar working with in WordPress as a developer. So it uses hooks to be able to fire off HTTP requests when you're setting it up. yeah, I eventually, hopefully, see it moving into that space of becoming a, not necessarily a hosting company, but becoming a WebSocket relay.
infrastructure that people reach for when they're looking for real-time behaviour.
Matt Medeiros (31:56.238)
That's very cool. Very cool. Jared, thanks for hanging out today. Again, if LinkedIn is correct, it says you're in Kentucky. You certainly don't sound like a Kentuckian. How did you end up in Kentucky?
Jared Rethman (32:05.444)
You
so while I was working at Ten Up, they had their annual summit and in 2019 they had it at Disney World. And I'm originally from South Africa. So in 2019, I flew across to Disney World and my wife also working for Ten Up. We bumped into each other.
headed off, I moved back to South Africa. I mean, I traveled back to South Africa and a month later I moved to Kentucky just before COVID and we got married within the month. I got pregnant and nearly seven years later, I'm still married.
Matt Medeiros (32:49.097)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, so she lived in Kentucky. Yeah, and then she got you at the opportune time because it was like, you're in Kentucky now, you ain't going nowhere because COVID hit. So you were kind of stuck there. That's really cool. How does Kentucky compare to South Africa? I'm sure there's some major differences.
Jared Rethman (32:57.282)
Yeah, she's born and raised.
Jared Rethman (33:08.656)
Right.
Jared Rethman (33:18.062)
Major, major differences. I would say the only similarity is really nothing actually. The weather is completely different. People are completely different. No surfing. The humidity is just brutal. I'd never, I'd literally never seen snow until I moved here.
Matt Medeiros (33:29.739)
Yep. No surfing.
Matt Medeiros (33:42.445)
To be honest, I didn't even know Kentucky Guts know compared to where I'm at.
Jared Rethman (33:45.456)
Yeah, I think we get one snowfall at least once a year since I've been here. Yeah, and we get our tornado warnings, which is also completely foreign to me. But yeah, it's a beautiful place and I'm really fortunate and happy to be here.
Matt Medeiros (33:55.277)
Yeah.
Matt Medeiros (34:00.845)
Just in case, just in case his wife's listening. He is very happy to be living in Kentucky. Some great, some great bourbons, some great whiskeys, some great barbecue, I'm sure. All that great stuff. Jared Rethman over at worldhouse.dev. You can contact him there if you want to hire him to work on some projects. WPSignal.io. Check that out if you're looking for real time.
Jared Rethman (34:04.416)
Yeah. Right. Yes.
Jared Rethman (34:13.976)
Yeah? yeah. Yeah.
Matt Medeiros (34:30.571)
WordPress events in a plugin. It's a great project. Jared, thanks for hanging out today. Anywhere else you want folks to go to say thanks?
Jared Rethman (34:39.465)
no, I think you hit him, you got him all. Thank you so much, man.
Matt Medeiros (34:43.392)
Awesome stuff. Everybody else, WPMinute.com, the WPMinute.com slash subscribe. Number one way to stay connected. Want to join our free Slack community to chat with other WordPress folks? Just register for a free course right at the WPMinute.com slash courses. We teach you how to work on WordPress websites, sell WordPress websites, on board to WordPress websites. You can register for free. Join our Slack channel for free at the WPMinute.com slash courses.