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Andrew McIntosh is a first-gen entrepreneur. And so am I. And we both needed help along the way. From building a sustainable and inclusive community for first-gen entrepreneurs to discussing the power of business coaching and growth mindset, you'll gain valuable insights into the world of entrepreneurship without a safety net. Learn from a successful underdog's story and get inspired to take your own entrepreneurial journey to the next level. No matter what your parents say.
Andrew on Twitter: https://twitter.com/andrew_drives
The blog post: https://thebootstrappedfounder.com/andrew-mcintosh-first-generation-entrepreneurs/
Andrew on Twitter: https://twitter.com/andrew_drives
The blog post: https://thebootstrappedfounder.com/andrew-mcintosh-first-generation-entrepreneurs/
The podcast episode: https://share.transistor.fm/s/e49eaaa6
You'll find my weekly article on my blog: https://thebootstrappedfounder.com
Newsletter: https://thebootstrappedfounder.com/newsletter
My book Zero to Sold: https://zerotosold.com/
My book The Embedded Entrepreneur: https://embeddedentrepreneur.com/
My course Find Your Following: https://findyourfollowing.com
This episode is sponsored by Acquire.com! Go to http://try.acquire.com/arvid/ to get started with making sure you run a sellable business.
- (00:00) - Introduction
- (02:08) - Learning by doing by making mistakes.
- (06:04) - The importance of having a support network.
- (10:43) - Entrepreneurship is a rollercoaster.
- (14:07) - Have you always been crazy or is this a new development?
- (20:41) - Coaching vs. coaching.
- (24:28) - Building a digital community that is asynchronous.
- (28:19) - Community building and accountability in business.
- (32:47) - Entrepreneurship starts with a community.
- (37:35) - Share your wins and losses.
- (42:20) - Entrepreneurship as a vehicle for freedom.
- (49:35) - Getting people to the point where they graduate.
- (52:41) - The importance of sharing your story and building a community.
Creators & Guests
What is The Bootstrapped Founder?
Arvid Kahl talks about starting and bootstrapping businesses, how to build an audience, and how to build in public.
Arvid Kahl: Welcome to The
Bootstrapped Founder. Today, I'm
talking to Andrew McIntosh. He
is a first generation
entrepreneur. Andrew leads a
community of people just like
himself. And in fact, myself
too. I'm also a first generation
entrepreneur. And it's very
likely that you are one, too.
Andrew and I talk about dealing
with families that don't
understand why we do what we do,
finding the people just like
ourselves, and how we can build
profitable communities to help
our peers that really need help.
And before we get to our
conversation, let me introduce
the sponsor of this episode. Now
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What should you do? Well, the
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Wouldn't it be a cool story? But
the reality is not that simple.
Situations may be different for
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if this is the right option for
you. All right, here is Andrew
McIntosh.
So what's the most common issue
that first generation
entrepreneurs run into that
founders who come from
entrepreneurial backgrounds,
families that have an
entrepreneurial background
rarely ever experienced? What
have you found?
Andrew McIntosh: Well, for me,
this all starts back in 2006
when I started my business. I
got connected with this other
guy who was a few years younger
than me. And it turns out, he
was a second gen entrepreneur.
I'm a first gen. And it really
kind of made it obvious the
differences between all the
things that he had. And let me
preface this by saying I'm not
going to mention this person by
name. But he was undoubtedly a
hard worker, he was undoubtedly
smart. But he had all these
advantages that I didn't have.
So what I mean by that is, every
time I talk to this guy, I would
see him probably every month or
two. And in 2006, he was
building websites for a living.
And if you recall in 2007 is
when the iPhone came out, right?
So he pivots to I don't do
websites anymore. Now, I do
apps. And every time I see him,
he's on to some other completely
different, you know, wildly
different app idea. And it would
never, whatever he had would
never last more than a month or
two. And I was always like, man,
you need to sit down and just
focus, just stick with
something, just stick with one
thing and do it really well.
Well, then one day, this guy he,
like falls off the face of the
earth, doesn't respond to calls
or texts or anything. I don't
know what's happened to him. And
then I find out through the
grapevine. He's already sold his
business for seven figures. This
is in 2008, probably. And I was
like, what? What gives? How, you
know, at this point, I'm three
years into my bootstrapped
business. I'm an IT guy by
trade. So I'm just fixing
people's computers. But a few
years into my business, I'm
still doing this full time and
then cleaning offices with my
wife after hours, like we're
just barely scraping by. He's
already sold his business. He's
like 26 years old and early
retirement. And I'm like what
gives? So come to find out after
the fact, his dad was the CEO of
a pretty sizable company here in
town. And his dad was floating
him financially. He was covering
his apartment and all of his
personal expenses. So this guy
actually had, it's like, he had
50 darts in his hand and he
could just keep throwing them
until he hit a bull's eye.
Whereas I'm standing over here
going, I got one dart, man. I
got one shot at this, you know
and so on reflecting on that
now, just kind of looking back.
It's like, again, not trying to
minimize what he's doing because
if he wasn't smart and
hardworking, like this never
would have taken off, right? But
he was able to get connections,
his dad was able to pull some
strings, help him find his first
few clients. Here's my
accountant. Here's my lawyer.
Here's how you set up an LLC.
Here's how you market yourself,
here's how you sell. Here's the
education you need to be able to
develop apps. Here's all these
things none of which did I have
when I started my business,
right? So for me being the first
in my family to start a
business, my parents were like,
super proud, like and
supportive, which was awesome.
I'm very, very grateful for
that. But in terms of
mentorship, support, advice,
connections, financial backing,
I had none of that whatsoever.
So in the long term, I think it
was actually a good thing for me
because it's kind of that
bootstrapper mentality. You
know, it's not just the
financial aspect of it, but it's
also learning by doing, by
making a bunch of mistakes. You
know, I kind of learned
everything the hard way, it's
the school of hard knocks,
right? But I couldn't help but
look back on it. Now that I've
sold that business all these
years later, which I know we'll
probably get into. But it's
like, man, if I had had access
to some of those types of
connections, my first few years
in business probably would have
gone a whole lot smoother and
been a lot less painful and
gotta change the trajectory even
better than what it was.
Arvid Kahl: Yeah, yeah,
absolutely. That really rings a
bell like with me. That is my
experience too. My family was
they're hard workers, right?
Like, people work hard. They try
to make a living but they did
not have any knowledge outside
of their domain of work that
they were in. So when I tried to
start things that were outside
of that, I think I'm glad they
were kind of supportive to begin
with, right?
Arvid Kahl: Because I want to
talk about this too because
Andrew McIntosh: Right
that's something a lot of people
struggle with, like they have no
support, in addition to having
no mentorship, no guidance and
no actually like actual help,
actual, initial fundamental and
foundational knowledge that
might travel in there from from
their family. They don't have
access to any of this. I, at
least, had a supportive family
in a way. And I kind of wanted
to talk about this. I think
mentorship and guidance,
particularly, they are a must
have for entrepreneurs, like
they definitely need this. And
at some point in our life,
hopefully, we find that
somewhere. A lot of people have
the advantage of having it with
their parents, which is great
because it kind of permeates
your whole education, right?
It's not just you turn, like 21
years old or something. And then
somebody comes in and gives you
kind of the pamphlets that you
need to read. And now you know
everything. It's been instilled
in you if you have parents and a
family that has this kind of
approach to life. But if you
don't, at least having
alternative groups of people
that can bring this into your
life as early as possible, that
would be great. At least, that's
what I want entrepreneurs to
see. So I do want to talk about
the actual support network too,
right? Because that mentorship
guidance, that's kind of
intellectual. But there is an
underlying feeling for me that I
have only recently in the last
couple of years develop that I
feel surrounded by supportive
people. Because I didn't really
have that before. Short
excursion into my family story,
like I said, everybody is kind
of hard working and working for
the government or working for
private enterprise somewhere but
in a paid position just really
as an employee. So when it came
to just understanding risk,
financial risk or even
understanding money,
understanding like how money has
this cumulative effect, if you
invest it, it becomes bigger
instead of if you just save it
and never touch it, right? There
are these narratives, these
stories that we have in our
lives, where our families are
kind of telling us a thing that
worked for them. But in the end,
we need a different story. So
how does kind of support
network? How can you build this
if you don't have that in your
family? What are your
suggestions when you need that
support network, but you can't
really source it from your
relatives?
Andrew McIntosh: Well, it's
interesting, I'm finding that
there's kind of two camps when
it comes to your family and your
support network as a first gen
entrepreneur. Either one, your
parents are like mine or yours,
where they're supportive of what
you do, but there's a danger in
that. Because in some cases,
they think you hung the moon,
they think you're just
fantastic, right? They love you.
You're their child and they
think you can do anything, but
then they fail to point out to
you the pitfalls or the mistakes
you're about to make or the
things that you're doing wrong
because they don't know any
better, right? So they give you
this false sense of, you know,
confidence, perhaps as you're
going into this or it's the
other camp where they're overly
critical of you. And they know
what your shortcomings are and
they think that you're not cut
out for this and they'll make
comments like you sure this is,
you know, this business is
really gonna work out for you?
And like maybe should just go
back to a day job and that is
super discouraging for people.
And so for me when I think about
a support network, you know what
I'm already witnessing happening
in this community that I've
started which is still in its
infancy, frankly. But you know,
a lot of people talk about
imposter syndrome, right? And we
see it openly discussed on
social media and things like
that. It's super, super common
thing. But once you kind of rub
shoulders with your peers and
you know that they have it too,
but then you see what they're
able to accomplish in their
business, there's kind of this
sense of like, okay, yes, maybe
I'm the first in my family to
start a business. I am the
Trailblazer here, but what I'm
doing isn't actually all that
different from what he's doing
or from what she's doing. I'm
also saying where, you know, I
talked about this a lot.
Entrepreneurship is a roller
coaster, man. I mean, it has
higher highs and lower lows than
just working in a normal day
job. And when you're
experiencing those lows, it's
like everything feels like it's
crashing down on you. You know,
you start to question, it's not
just imposter syndrome. It goes
way, way beyond that. You're not
even thinking, am I an imposter
here? You're thinking is this
whole thing gonna come crashing
down? Is it even going to be
able to pay the bills by this
time next month? And all that
self doubt starts to creep in.
And that can actually lead to
depression, you know, where you
find yourself struggling to get
out of bed. So when you're
talking to people who aren't
entrepreneurs, then all they're
focused on is the fact that,
yeah, you know, you're depressed
and here's how we can, you know,
try to fix that or whatever. But
when you're talking to people
who've been there, done that,
have experienced the same exact
thing and have gotten through
the other side of this thing,
they can validate the way that
you're feeling. They can tell
you that it's going to be okay
and you actually believe them
because you know, they've
experienced it for themselves.
And it's like that can make or
break your mental and emotional,
you know, outlook on whether
your entrepreneurial journey
here is actually going to, you
know, fall off a cliff or if
it's actually got a happy ending
on the other side.
Arvid Kahl: That just speaks
right from my heart, like I've
experienced the exact same
thing. It's understandable that
people who have a nine to five
job cannot relate to this
really, like they don't have
this fundamental risk in
anything they do. That what
they've been building for years,
might just come crashing down on
them, like immediately and
forever. We had this with our
business, too. It felt after a
while, that we had something
really valuable, that if we
stopped working on it for a
couple days, we just implode.
And that is a risk that most
people who have a job don't have
like they think about job
security and how quickly can I
find another job doing the thing
that I'm already doing right
today? But for a founder, the
risk is so much more intense.
And that is something people
just really don't relate to,
right? Unless they have done
this themselves, which as I said
earlier, if you had that in your
family, people will raise you
with that understanding that
certain things. You know, they
will come they will go. That's
fine. You will find another way
or invest your time wisely. And
then kind of diversify because
they understand the concepts
underneath these. But if your
family doesn't have this and I
come from a family like this,
they looked at me like why would
you do this? Why wouldn't you
just, right? That's always the
argument, the default path. And
I'm thinking about like Paul
Millerd spoke here, the Pathless
Path. I read that recently. And
he puts that so clearly, you
have the default path that
everybody takes where the
outcome is guaranteed if you
follow these steps and for most
people, that's their work life,
that their whole work experience
is that default thing. And for
you to take another path, being
kind of non compliant, that
often creates some kind of
emotional distress that most
people deal with by just kind of
isolating you to the side. Like
I've seen this in families. You
have a lot of when it's
Thanksgiving dinner and people
ask you what you're doing? And
you tell them, oh, I'm building
a business and they just look at
you like, I don't know, should
you really let's just talk about
something else, right? That kind
of sucks and not having this.
That's frustrating. And it's
good to have community for that.
I think it's necessary to even
have the impetus and the
motivation to keep working on
your thing. And for that you
need people around you.
Andrew McIntosh: Yeah. So when
people come into my community, I
asked them to create an
introductory post, you know,
tell us a little bit about
yourself. And I ask a series of
questions, you know, to kind of
help start the conversation as
to what you do and why you do
it, what industry you're in, who
you serve, all these things. But
at the end, I asked this last
question. So as a first gen
entrepreneur, have you always
been crazy? Or is this a new
development, right? Because the
truth is, you have to be a
little bit crazy to take on a
venture like this as if you're
the first one in your family to
do it. Because you're right, the
safe option is just well, let me
rephrase that the "safe option"
is to just take a job, which
this is a whole other
conversation, I think is a
totally false sense of security.
I mean, just look at all the
layoffs that are happening.
You've got all your eggs in one
basket. Things could be going
great for 20 years and then you
get a new boss. And now
everything changes overnight,
right?
Arvid Kahl: Yeah, job security,
this is really a mirage at this
Andrew McIntosh: Yeah, exactly.
Whereas if you're an
point, right?
entrepreneur, you know, in my IT
business before I sold it, I had
45 clients and my largest client
represented 8% of my revenue. So
on my worst day, I can lose 8%,
like the chances of me losing
100% of my income overnight,
were virtually none, right?
That's not true if you work a
day job, end of tangent. But I
think yet to be the first person
in your family to go start a
business, you're a little bit
crazy because this is totally
uncharted territory. It's scary,
it's stressful. It's fraught
with risk or at least perceived
risk. And you don't have a
roadmap, you know. You don't
have this like clearly laid out
path to get from point A to
point B. You feel kind of blind
as you're going through doing
this. And that to me is kind of
where just having that network
of fellow crazy people like,
hey, you know, even if it's the
blind leading the blind, at
least we're all in this
together. But that's not the
case. It's, you know, you've got
your peers, you can bounce ideas
off each other, they can tell
you if what you're saying is a
bad idea. And they're not going
to hold back the way that you
know, someone who is a close
family member might or they
might be supportive in a way
that a close family might. And
just being a help you validate
your ideas to know that you're
not alone. To help, you know,
kind of decipher the crazy, I
think is just a huge benefit.
Arvid Kahl: I guess that's very
much true, like particularly
from the perspective of somebody
who's not doing it. It
definitely looks crazy. From the
inside, it just looks ambitious.
I think we just reframe it as
something positive, right?
Andrew McIntosh: Right! Yeah,
these are people who get it, who
get you, you know, because I do
think that if you're an
entrepreneur, there are a pretty
decent group of people who are
what I call accidental
entrepreneurs. You know, they
were kind of had a change in
circumstances, lost their jobs,
whatever and sought out
entrepreneurship as a backup
plan. But then there are others
who are kind of born this way.
You know, they just, they enjoy
building, they want to be able
to build something for
themselves. They don't like
making other people wealthy.
They just want to build
something that they own, right?
And for those, I think it just
it does wonders for your mental
and emotional state to be able
to rub shoulders with like
minded individuals so that it
just makes the whole thing a
little easier.
Arvid Kahl: I assume you were
trying to look for these people
and you couldn't really find
them. So you built your own
community around that. Is that
right? How did that come to be?
Like what's the spark that made
you make that choice to build
the 1st Gen Entrepreneurs Community?
Andrew McIntosh: Yeah, so it's
interesting. So I started my
business in 2006. I sold it 15
years later. So I'm jealous of
guys like you, two years. That's
impressive. For me, I'm a slow
learner. So 15 years was my
journey. I actually hired a
business coach, though, after I
had been in business for about
six or seven years is when I
hired this guy. And it was
awesome. Like, I finally had
that he was like a father figure
in a business sense. And it did
wonders for my mental and
emotional state like I could,
I'd be freaking out about
something. And he would help me
understand like, this is not as
big a deal as you think it is.
And here's why. And here's what
you need to do. He was like the
psychiatrist. I could lay on the
couch, so to speak and just, you
know, pour my heart out. Because
you can't share these things
with your employees, you'll
freak them out. You can't share
these things with your family
because they won't understand.
And it was just like, it was
phenomenal. I would absolutely
recommend that someone get a
business coach. But here's the
problem. I would have hired him
much earlier in the process if I
could have afforded it. He was
like $1,000 a month. And that
was a decade ago. And that was
his discounted rate because I
was still small potatoes and he
was trying to help me out. And I
couldn't help but think what if
I had had access to that type of
mentorship and support from day
one? Like my first five years
would have been completely
different. And so after I sold
my business and I was thinking
about what I want to do next, I
kept kind of reflecting on that.
And reflecting on that story I
told you earlier about that
second gen entrepreneur. I
actually was describing myself
as a first gen entrepreneur. I
just kind of, after repeating
the story of enough times, I
kind of coined that term and
immediately had people send me
DMS, like, hey, I've never heard
it put that way, but I'm a first
gen entrepreneur. And then you
instantly realize we all have
the same emotions and the same
struggles in common. And so my
thought was, man, if I can do
something that gets people that
mentorship and advice and
support to help you just keep
your sanity the way I got with
my coach, but do it in a way
that's accessible for people
who, you know, inside their
first five years, I would have
jumped at that opportunity if I
had had it. So that's kind of
how I came up with the idea.
Arvid Kahl: That makes a lot of
sense. That's just yet another
way of an entrepreneur finding a
lack somewhere, just filling it
with a product or with a thing,
right? A solution to a problem.
I love this. And I love, the
coach thing always, it blows my
mind to just only have learned
about this over the last couple
of years. Like I'm like, almost
40 now. And most of my life, I
thought I could do it all or I
had to do it all. I had to be
able to do it all, deal with it
all just all by myself and
nobody should need to help me.
Otherwise, it wasn't my
accomplishment, which is
obviously bizarre. So thinking
about coaching or therapy, I
kind of feel that coach of yours
is both therapist and coach at
the same time. That should be
way more normalized and there
should be also more accessible
ways like the one that you're
providing for people to get at
least a glimpse of this. Just
even the presence of it, knowing
that it exists, probably changes
your mind in a certain way. So I
love this. How are you building
this kind of coaching guiding or
guidance mentorship into your
community? How are people
helping each other there?
Andrew McIntosh: So that's a
great question. Because this
thing, I like to tell people
that I am very much building the
airplane while flying the
airplane here, which the irony
is not lost on me. That, you
know, here I am talking about
entrepreneurship, the first in
your family to do it. And I am
once again figuring this out as
I go. So I guess it is what it
is. That's just who I am. But
this community is still like I
said in its early stages, but
what we're doing right now
primarily revolves around
holding weekly events. And we
just do it right there on Zoom.
We've got people throughout the
US, London, Israel, New Zealand,
a person in the Philippines,
it's basically the English
speaking world is kind of the
limit right now. And so with
these weekly events, what I'm
doing is trying to figure out
the needs of the members. So
maybe you feel like what you
need more than anything is
accountability. Well, we've got
a format just for that, where we
can kind of check in weekly and
keep each other held accountable
in a way that our friends and
family wouldn't. Maybe what you
need is to generate more
business and to do leads, well,
I'm working on a format for that
to help you do that. Maybe it's
just strictly social hour and
sometimes a place to just show
up and just kind of vent and
tell people what's going on in
your business a little bit.
Every time you facilitate
conversations like this, magic
happens, it just kind of happens
all on its own. And it's really
cool to see because as much as I
would like to take credit for
it, it's really about getting
people in a room, kind of
setting the stage for here's
what we're here to talk about.
And then you watch as
connections are made, as people
unearth these new opportunities
or share these tips and tricks
they've picked up along the way.
And we had one yesterday, that
was just like, this thing that
had been bothering one of the
members of the community for
months now. And we just teed it
up and one of the fellow members
like, have you ever thought
about doing it this way? And
he's like, oh, my goodness! You
know what I mean? And so it
really revolves around those
weekly kind of live events. I
think that that's where that
sense of community really starts
to, you know, get fostered,
those connections are made. We
also have some additional spaces
where people can post questions,
you know, so it's more of like
an asynchronous type of thing,
you know, posts and comments and
likes and that style of thing.
So there's that and there's the
live event. So those are the two
main draws.
Arvid Kahl: That is very
interesting. Interesting that
that's exactly the last thing
you were saying because I kind
of wanted to ask you about that
particular part because most
communities like in the real
world, as we have them are very
synchronous, right? You show up.
A community center is that,
right? You go to the place, some
thing is happening, a meet up or
an event where people contribute
to something and then you leave
and the communities kind of
paused until it meets again. But
in digital communities, that's
different. You have the option
to have a large synchronous part
like what you've been doing and
it kinda reminds me of a
community center because people
come to your community center in
the virtual space. And then
there's these different rooms
they can go into and do
different things. But something
is there for whatever they need.
That's really cool. And then you
have the asynchronous part where
I guess knowledge can be stored
or made applicable when you need
it, instead of having to be
present for it. I'm saying this
because I'm working through
building a similar community
centric thing with my friend,
Tyler Tringas. We try to build
something around Calm SaaS
companies right now, like
businesses that slowly build
like sustainable business models
and that stuff. And we want to
build a community based approach
as well. And we've been thinking
about this a lot. We have this
little podcast where we talk
about this every week and just
try to brainstorm a new thing in
public into being because
building in public, obviously,
it's the best thing you could
possibly do.
Arvid Kahl: The idea is that we
want to get feedback from the
Andrew McIntosh: Right
community as much as we can
before we start the community.
And that is, one of the things
that a lot of people have been
reaching out to me about is
like, hey, guys, if you want to
build a community, make sure
that it is both synchronous when
we need it, like having the
opportunity to talk to other
people when we'd have this
problem. And asynchronous for,
you talked about this. You have
a global community, people in
New Zealand and people in the
states try figuring out when
like a good time is for them to
meet, right? How are you dealing
with that? Like the globalness
of it all?
Andrew McIntosh: Yeah, so that's
a great question. And it's
something that is an ongoing
thing that I'm trying to tackle.
Because I have these awesome
ideas and plans on how exactly
I'm going to fix that problem.
But it's dependent on me having
like, 1000 members in the
community, which I don't as of
this exact moment because once
you have a large enough
community, then what happens is,
is people even at the small size
that we are today, I've already
had people raised their hands to
basically, volunteers like
ambassadors, essentially. You
know, they love the mission of
what we're doing so much.
They're like, hey, how can I
help? And so if you do that, I
think what you can actually do
is you can say, alright, well,
here's a format that we've
designed for this. I'm going to
host one of these at noon
Eastern, but then this person is
going to host it at 4pm. And
this one's going to host at 7pm.
Andrew McIntosh: If you can
build the structure and then
Arvid Kahl: That was a great
solution. And kind of an almost
Arvid Kahl: Thats good!
kind of have these ambassadors,
these volunteers, you know, who
want to moderate these meetings
and you give them a little, it
wouldn't take much, you know, to
help kind of train them on what
the format looks like. I feel
like we could actually have a
calendar full of events, you
know. Every day of the week, you
might have three different time
slots and different formats. And
you can now just kind of opt in
to what suits your calendar, I
think would be the best way to
do it.
meta perspective, it's yet
another entrepreneurial thing
that nobody teaches you, unless
you have entrepreneurial your
peers, like the idea that you
can just kind of franchise out
parts of your business, just by
designing them in a process
based structure, give that to
other people and have them do an
equally good job as you could.
Because you know, in any
business, you tend to delegate
eventually. And this is just
another smart way of delegating
business work in your community
to somebody who's better at and
better for that particular job.
I love this. This is already
super helpful. Like just to even
talk about that kind of stuff
among entrepreneurs, right? This
community building right here. I
love it.
Andrew McIntosh: Yeah, that's
like meta twice there. But yeah,
so and to your point, like, what
I'm finding, too is the members
of the community have come to me
with their ideas on what we can
put forth, even on the format.
So take the accountability
thing, had a member come to me
and say, hey, I think we should
start doing these weekly
accountability meetings. I'm
like, oh, that's funny, you
mentioned it. I was planning on
doing one every month. And I was
going to build this whole system
where we can like track each
other's goals and do all this,
you know, kind of cool stuff.
And she's like, that's terrible
idea. And I just love the
brutal, most straightforward
honesty, but she immediately you
know, tore it to shreds. And I'm
appreciative of it because she
was able to like help me see
instantly, like no, short, sweet
bursts, you know, 30 minutes
every week, just get to the
point. And let's just kind of
keep the needle moving. So not
only did she help refine
something I was already working
on but then she was one who
raised her hands like, hey, I'll
run one of these. So now we're
doing two of them. And we're
taking two different time slots
to help accommodate people. So
even at a small size, we're able
to do that. And then the other
thing that's really cool and it
excites me to think what this
could become long term. I've had
more than one member already
come to me and say hey, you
know, this could be more than
just a community like this. One
person is an attorney who was
like we could provide like legal
coaching services as part of
this or financial advisors like
I can help implement Profit
First, if you're familiar with
that one. I'm a big believer in
that system and we could
actually help people with, like,
the implementation of these
fundamental things for their
business. So it goes beyond just
a community that's about
support, but it's also about,
we'll give you the playbooks or
we'll even help you with
implementation on things. So
it's like, as this thing, you
know, kind of gets Frankenstein
together, though, it's exciting,
you know, in a good way because
you're just seeing all these
ways that we can help each
other, collaborate, joint
ventures, you know, and
partnerships and all these types
of things. It's just, it's a lot
of fun if you're into that kind
of thing.
Arvid Kahl: I really love this.
I think that reminds me very
strongly of how, like human
settlements start to appear like
somebody settled somewhere. And
then people need different jobs
solved differently. And people
volunteer into those jobs,
either by having the skill
already bringing it like through
the path of, you know,
pioneering. You know, they came
with you, they had their little
wagon and they came with you on
the trail or they just learned
the thing that needs to be done
and then become the local expert
added. That feels like this
community that you're currently
building is going from little
village that just has a couple
people living in farming there
to a whole bigger like a town, a
city, maybe even with specific
people doing specific work, but
all for the benefit of the local
community. It's so awesome to
see this happening.
Andrew McIntosh: you said you're
almost 40, so we're close to the
same age. There were two video
games that I played growing up.
One was Oregon Trail. Did you
ever play Oregon Trail?
Arvid Kahl: I heard about that.
I never played it. But everybody
here in Canada talks about this
game because apparently, it's
the only game people ever play.
Andrew McIntosh: Oregon Trail
was like every grade school kid
ever who grew up you know, born
in the 80s is going to identify
with this. But basically, you
know, you're tasked with getting
all the way to Oregon in the old
wild west. And it's fraught with
like, risks and dangers and all
these other things. You know,
you can get attacked by wild
animals or you can get dysentery
and die from it and all these
other kinds of things. And I
think that that's a great
analogy for entrepreneurship
when you're by yourself. It's
just riddled with dangers and
risks, right? But on the flip
side, to your point about kind
of the village, the community
concept that's more like
SimCity. Did you play SimCity?
Arvid Kahl: Oh, yeah. I sure
did.
Andrew McIntosh: Okay, I got you
on this one. So how cool is
that? That you can start with,
you know, didn't start with like
one little square or whatever
Arvid Kahl: Yeah, you had like
the little the home, the houses
zone, the industrial zone and
the business zone. And that was
it, right?
Andrew McIntosh: Yeah, exactly.
And it starts with this small
thing. And then over time, it
just sprawls into this big,
thriving village or town or
community or whatever. And
that's what I feel like
entrepreneurship can be when
you're part of the community.
It's not just this thing, this
path that you're on your own,
you don't know what dangers
you're facing. It's like, no,
you're part of this functioning
thing where everybody's helping
each other out, which is really
cool. So thank you for putting
that idea in my head. That's awesome.
Arvid Kahl: Oh, you're most
welcome. I'm also very grateful
for you just bringing up some
city because I'm not thinking
about it. In many ways.
Entrepreneurship is just like
architecture ng are being the
architect of a complex system of
individual things that all need
an expert in them eventually,
like when you start a little
city, and on SimCity, you kind
of figure out oh, yeah, I'm
going to draw the power lines
here. And all of that kind of
stuff, you have these details,
and you need to figure things
out to understand each part of
your city. But as you scale it,
these things become more
independent units that have
their own purpose. So I'm just
thinking of my own video game
experience and how much that
actually influenced. I think I
learned that's the thing I
learned more from city about
entrepreneurship than from my
parents. That's what I'm kind of
figuring out just that. And that
is both sad. And it's both
awesome that the game the video
game can actually supply this.
Now in retrospect, that was
super helpful.
Andrew McIntosh: Yes. My parents
always gave me a hard time for
my addiction to video games. But
now I'm a grown man. And I want
this me like, look, this was
good. For me. This was good for
me.
Arvid Kahl: It probably was
right. I think video games in
particular as interactive
problem solution scenarios, they
do train you to just never give
up like the amount of times that
I played luthier to the
wonderful Super Nintendo role
playing game. And these puzzles
in the game. They were so hard,
but I would just sit there for
four hours trying to figure it
out and eventually did and I
knew I knew that it was figured
out double because the game was
designed to be hard but not
impossible. And I think most of
entrepreneurship is really that
it's hard but not impossible.
And if it looks impossible, and
sounds and smells impossible,
then maybe you just need to
shift your perspective a little
bit and look at a different
angle, and then becomes possible
again. So, again, videogames,
probably a solution to all our
problems. That's what I'm
saying.
Andrew McIntosh: Yeah, well, and
legitimately, I think you make a
good point like there, there are
real lessons to be learned from
that. Because how many times did
you you know, throw your hands
up and throw the controller on
the ground out of frustration,
right? It happens. But then on
the flip side of that, how many
times do you actually finally
solve that puzzle, or finally
beat that boss or whatever, to
feel the immense satisfaction
that comes from that. And it's
like, that's what
entrepreneurship does, it is, it
is way more challenging than
just having a day job. But man,
at some point, you stand and you
look back on what what you've
accomplished, and what you've
built, and not just in a
monetary way, but just the sense
of pride and satisfaction that
comes from building something
that is truly yours. And it's
like that SimCity, it starts
small. And then next thing, you
know, you look back, and you've
got this sprawling metropolis.
It's just, it's so satisfying.
And I think that, honestly, I
think video games in some ways
can can train a person to
understand that it takes that
persistency and that grit to
kind of keep going until you,
you get to the other end.
Arvid Kahl: 100% I think so. And
one thing that I also remember,
like, among my friends, I really
enjoyed, like teaching them how
to beat the level, I teaching
them, how to beat the boss and
how to play something. So that's
also something that comes to my
mind, now that I do a lot of
this. Like, as, as a person in
our community, I feel a lot of
entrepreneurs through having to
deal with all of this themselves
and having to figure it out,
they still have the sense of I
kind of want to contribute this
back to people, so they don't
have it that hard. Do you feel
that there's a stronger sense of
volunteering in your community
than it normally is available to
people?
Andrew McIntosh: Yeah, I think
that this is just one of the
core traits of, of most decent
human beings is like, once
you've, once you've gone through
something tough yourself, it
genuinely feels good to help
someone else. either avoid that
pain entirely, or just help them
to appreciate like you'll you'll
get on the other side of this
thing, you know, and that, that
whole kind of pay it forward
mentality. It doesn't only apply
to quote unquote, successful
entrepreneurs, you don't need to
have been someone who's who
built the business and sold it
for eight figures or something
before you qualify to give
advice to someone else. I mean,
I've got a couple of people who
have reached out to me who are
in that category. And they're
like, Man, I love what you're
doing, I'd like to, you know,
kind of be like a mentor in this
community. That's awesome. I'm
all for it. But the reality is,
is for the rest of us that are
still kind of boots on the
ground, you know, just grinding
this out doing it one day at a
time, there are small wins every
single day, all these little
things that you pick up here and
there that I was able to do this
quicker, or I was able to charge
a little bit more for this, or
I've used this tool, and it
saved me some time. And sharing
those wins is is super valuable
to other people. And then it
also brings you measure
fulfillment to know that you've
helped somebody else and you
just being able to foster that
is it's really cool to see,
Arvid Kahl: do you leverage that
in your community do encourage
people to share all these little
things,
Andrew McIntosh: I have a
dedicated space called Share
your wins. And it's in there,
there's actually a little kind
of guideline up at the top that
says, share your wins for two
reasons. Number one is it's it's
spread some positivity, right.
And it's always nice for us to
hear and we're going to
celebrate along with you. But
more importantly, share what
steps you took that led up to
that win, right? Because now we
all have something that we can
we can learn from and maybe put
into use and so it doesn't even
have to be something big. Right?
There's like I said small wins
every day, little bits here and
there. And now now that just
kind of helps all of us, you
know, pick up little pieces as
we
Arvid Kahl: go. How do you deal
with the small losses? The
little things that don't work?
How do you encourage people or
do you encourage people to talk
about this? And if so, how?
Andrew McIntosh: So I have
another space called Share your
learns. And we don't call it
share your losses? That's right,
we call it share your learns.
That's interesting. So you know,
I personally started the very
first post inside that space
where when I completed my first
year in business I got a
surprise tax bill that I wasn't
expecting it was $14,000 and I
had exactly $0 set aside for
taxes and it just like was a big
deal right because I had I went
into debt to cover this and put
me in the hole and and all this
other kind of stuff. I still
have a bad taste in my mouth
from all these years later. So
that space isn't to just share a
story like a sob story. You
know, boohoo Woe is me. You
know, please feel sorry for me.
But it's more importantly, what
did you learn from that
experience? And how would you do
it over again, if given the
opportunity. And now there's
that Pitfall, there's that, that
thing that if you come from a
family business, you know that's
been built in, it's been handed
to you, your family is going to
have already avoided these
pitfalls, and they're going to
educate you on what to look out
for and how not to make costly
mistakes. But if you're the
first in your family to do this,
you're gonna walk right into it,
because you just didn't see it
coming. How could you you've
never done this before, right?
So sharing your learns, that's
another, you know, super
valuable thing that is just
like, here's the things to look
out for what to avoid. The
mistake I made, I paid the
price, but I'm sharing it so
that you don't have to,
Arvid Kahl: that's a good way to
rephrase it, right? A loss is
only a loss when you don't learn
from it. So just rephrasing it
into learns immediately makes it
useful. That's awesome. I think
I'm taking this away from that
little part of a conversation.
It's just like to look at wins
and losses as both like
celebrate double celebratory
write situations. That is really
cool.
Andrew McIntosh: Yeah, yeah, I
think that's a that's a great
way to put it. A loss is only a
loss if you don't learn from it.
So yeah, we'll put well let's
Arvid Kahl: let's look at
potential wins in the future. I
kind of want to know where you
want to take this community,
like what's your, your long term
vision for this? Or if you if
you even have one, because it
might just be a community of
practice, and you see where it
goes. But I do wonder, like,
where where do you want to see?
Or what do you want to see first
gen entrepreneurs in like five
years from now?
Andrew McIntosh: Yeah, that's a
fantastic question that I, you
know, honestly, I am partially
embarrassed to admit this, and
partially proud to admit this,
but like, I'm thinking about
this community 24/7, like, when
my head hits the pillow at
night, I'm thinking about what I
can, what I can do to make it
better and where it's headed.
And then when I wake up in the
morning, it's clear, I've been
processing it during my sleep,
right? And so that's a really
good question, that I'm still
trying to wrap my mind around,
like what this could be because
I come from an IT background,
right? So at my previous
company, we were fixing people's
computers, we're fixing their
printers. That's not the most
like fulfilling thing in the
world. If I'm being honest with
you, right? Nobody calls you up
to say, Hey, I just wanted to
say things are running great. I
love what you guys do. It was it
was a pretty thankless job. So
now with this, it's like the
complete other end of the
spectrum where it is so
fulfilling, to think about the
fact that you can make a
meaningful impact on someone's
entrepreneurial journey. And not
to get like too philosophical
about it. But like
entrepreneurship to me, you
know, I come from a middle
class, blue collar, Midwest
upbringing, and with that came
some limiting limiting beliefs,
you know, what I what I thought
was good money when I came out
of college, you know, what, what
it means to be wealthy terms,
like building equity for
yourself like this, none of
that. That was all foreign to
me, basically, right? And now
that I've kind of gone through
this whole process of starting a
business as a one man show,
growing it over a 15 year
period, and then ultimately
selling it, and, and rubbing
shoulders with all these other
people who who do this all the
time. It's like, I think
entrepreneurship is a very
valuable thing that can take you
from a lower class to a middle
class or middle class to an
upper class. Or take whatever
you define success as an help
you get there, it's a vehicle to
help you to get there. So
whether that's freedom of time,
freedom of money, freedom of
choice as to who you want to
work with, and what you want to
do for a living, like, once you
get a taste of these freedoms,
you never, you never want to go
back. Right? So to me, it like
brings an immense amount of, you
know, purpose and satisfaction
to know that like this
community, or zooming out a
little bit, this organization
can be something that helps
people to achieve their their
definition of success. And so
the idea of being able to help
say, 1000 people, you know,
having a meaningful impact on
their lives is like, super
fulfilling. So that's like my
big, hairy, audacious goal as
this awesome. Yeah. Now the how,
you know what, what that
actually looks like, is still
like I said, building the
airplane while flying the
airplane. So I think it's going
to be a combination of obviously
supporting people so that
they're not doing it alone is
probably always going to be the
the baseline, you know, kind of
thing. But then to what extent
can we not just give them
support, but actually help them
with the implementation of
systems that really set them up
for success, I think is, is what
I'm still kind of charting out
but that's the part that excites
me.
Arvid Kahl: I bet has also like
that feels like it's both a
community building and business
building thing at the same time.
So it has these these two
connotations there. I do wonder
about the business part of this
because obviously, it's a it's a
community of empowerment, which
is awesome. I love that about
it, because it talks, it talks
my language, right, that's kind
of what it is. But it's also a
business. And that has to be
sustainable. So I do want to
know, if you can divulge it,
obviously, like, how do you
approach this to be a
sustainable and growing
potentially growing or hopefully
very much potentially growing
business? And what's your
business approach to this
community?
Andrew McIntosh: Yeah, so that's
an interesting one, too, because
I kind of have these opposing
forces happening right now. So
on the one hand, I, I belonged
to a, like a CEO roundtable kind
of thing. I won't name it by
name, because I don't know if
I'm gonna get myself in trouble
at some point, because I'm going
to badmouth it a little bit
here. So this unnamed executive
roundtable thing that I belong
to, for a couple of years around
2017 2018. And it was $1,500 a
month to belong to this thing.
So $18,000 a year. And they
really leaned into this kind of
exclusivity thing, right? So the
idea basically, is that if you
can afford to be in a room full
of guys who can afford to be in
that room? That they are all
doing something? Right, right?
These are all quote unquote,
successful business owners. And
so through osmosis through the
connections that you're going to
get, you might wind up doing
business with each other, it'll
pay for itself. And the truth
is, it works like it does
actually work that way. But they
are leaning into this whole kind
of exclusive thing. And to me,
that's like a boys club, like,
it really goes against the grain
of kind of who I am. I'm trying
to swing the other way, I'm
trying to be inclusive, I'm
trying to help the underdog
here, I'm not looking to take
already successful people and
just help them become even
wealthier. I'm trying to take
the people who are just trying
to provide a comfortable
lifestyle for their own family
trying to build something for
themselves, and help them out,
right? So my business model is
very different, like, at this
point in time, it's $75 a month
to belong to this community.
Wow. And so it's very
accessible, right? Like anybody
who is an entrepreneur who's
who's actually like, gotten
started, you should have 75
bucks. And if you don't, that's
kind of a whole different, you
know, I'm not in a position to
help you at that point. But for
people who are established
that's accessible and I want to
keep it accessible, long term.
But then to your point, there
becomes like the business model
for this, like, how's that going
to work? Because you really need
a lot of num, a lot of people at
that price point before this
becomes something that that you
can make long term, you know,
sustainability. So, I would like
to always have that accessible
entry point that makes valuable,
useful, tactical, tangible
resources available to first gen
entrepreneurs, I always want
that to be there. But then I
think what will happen is, is as
the community grows, and then as
members start to mature in their
own businesses, then we can
start to offer additional
services to help them with
implementation of of systems and
processes, or with you know,
kind of those a miniature
version of that, where it is
like a CEO roundtable type of
thing. But it's still a fraction
of the cost and a fraction of
the time commitment, with none
of the highbrow exclusivity kind
of vibe, because that's just not
not my people. And then if you
recall, at the beginning, I said
how much I enjoyed business
coaching and think that it's
awesome, and everybody should do
it. I'm just trying to build a
bridge to get people to the
point where they can afford that
business coach, right? So that's
that space that I'm trying to
fill. And it's it's always
evolving and adapting. And so
what it is today is maybe not
what it's going to be tomorrow,
but that's kind of my overall
vision is to help people
overcome the odds of failure,
which we both know is
statistically way too high, to
not only survive, but then start
to thrive and get to the point
where they can they can get
where they want to go.
Arvid Kahl: That's I think
what's what becomes very clear
when you explain it like this,
like the whole communities
purpose is to get people from
the point where they start at to
the point where they can kind of
graduate from the community,
which is something interesting
because most communities are
trying to be like this all
encompassing thing that just
grabs you and holds you on
forever. Doesn't sound
necessarily like that with yours
like was, is it intentional that
it's kind of this transition
there. Everything that you're
building, would you still want
to build like a long term place
for people to be, but just get
them to the point and then stick
around? What do you think about
that?
Andrew McIntosh: I think that
it's, it is intentional to do it
that way. Because what I have in
common with all of my members is
we're all first gen
entrepreneurs. But we all come
from different backgrounds and
industries. And that's on
purpose, because now you can see
one problem getting attacked 12
different ways, which is really
cool, right? But then when you
start to get up to this point,
you know, I'm not going to be
able to tell a trademark
attorney how to handle
trademarks, right, or I'm not
gonna be able to tell a
financial adviser how to how to
build their business, I actually
advocate for belonging to two
communities, you know, mine as
kind of like your general
entrepreneurial support
community, and then another one
that's really niche and specific
to your industry, where you're
gonna have very different
conversations there. So I think
there's space for both. But yes,
if someone graduates from this
community, because they've
reached this point of success,
man, I am just, I'm in your
corner, I'm celebrating that for
you, right? Like, that's
awesome. You beat the odds,
you're enjoying
entrepreneurship, it's had a
meaningful impact on your life.
And I think that's awesome.
That's like my mission. I think
what will happen is that if
people get to that point, by
that point, 75 bucks or whatever
it is, is like no big deal. And
they're probably gonna stick
around just now purely out of
loyalty and wanting to pay it
forward and help other people.
And if they opt in to do that,
then that's great. Those are the
kinds of people I want around.
But it's not some design where I
want to just get my get my hooks
into you and keep you around
forever.
Arvid Kahl: That's, that's nice
to know, it does remind me of
when we built feedback Panda, we
had a couple of conversations
with customers who cancelled the
product, because they found an
actual full time teaching job,
because they now had the time to
actually be using a product,
they had the time to file
logistics send out their their
CVs to companies and stuff. So
we enabled them to find a better
job that made using our product
not necessary anymore. This is
the happiest kind of churn that
I've ever seen in my life is
people graduating beyond needing
the product. So this sounds like
you're you have a different
similar mindset here, too, as to
if that is the success story,
right? The success story is
being at a point where you don't
need the community anymore, at
least not in a sense that it's
like, necessary to your
survival. You still need it for
different things. It's kind of
the pyramids, right? The you
know, the you know, which
pyramid ticket escaping my mind
right now.
Andrew McIntosh: But well, yeah,
that's just called being a good
person.
Arvid Kahl: Yes, again, that is
something that not everybody in
business has, like, for some
reason, people have been
trained. And it kind of harkens
back to what we initially talked
about, like the default stories
that we tell each other, like, I
have heard so many stories about
cutthroat competition, and about
like never sharing your story
with anybody, again, coming from
a family where people protected
what they had, because they
needed to have control over the
little things that they had
control over, right? They had no
expansive abundance mindset that
just didn't work for them. But
in our world now in the digital
economy, or even just our
economy that we're in an
abundance mindset is extremely
helpful, like sharing your
knowledge, sharing your story,
getting people involved getting
their buy in, and then having
them help you help them like
that is that is the kind of a
never ending cycle of growth,
that people who don't have that
experience would never think
about. It's a concept that is
just unimaginable to them. So
it's nice to have people in the
community. And it's nice that
you are building this community
for people, I'm really, really
happy to hear of this to know
that this is a concept, because
I am a first gen entrepreneur,
but I write, but I've never
expressly seen myself as one.
It's nice to know that the
concept exists. And now I have a
phrase to describe it to people.
That is That is really cool. And
I think with this Where Where
can people find this community?
Where can people find more about
you? Because I think you're such
a wonderful bridge into the
community that is the bridge to
their, their future capacity of
paying somebody to help them
with their business as a coach,
like where can people go to find
you?
Andrew McIntosh: Alright, so I'm
going to be very careful this
time. I was on a podcast a few
weeks ago that has a pretty
sizable following. And he asked
me that question. And I
completely bungled it. I was
just like, oh, just just get in
touch with me on LinkedIn. And
then I realized after the fact
that like, that was the lamest
call to action of all time,
right? And I'm i I'm still
beating myself up over it. So
here's what I'm gonna do. My
website or the website for the
first gen entrepreneurs
community is first gen dot biz,
and that's the number one S T G
n dot biz. I'm just going to
leave it at that because that is
a living, breathing website
that's going to change over time
and you know, how we how we
position the community and all
that is going to change. But if
you just come away with that one
thing, then we're going to
continue to make more resources
available with time, whether
it's courses and newsletters and
community and all these, you
know, kind of cool things that
we're building.
Arvid Kahl: That's a good call
to action. I think that you
didn't watch this one, this,
this one is perfect. And it's
also a great domain that is, as
a spectacular, short and
extremely clear domain name for
a project like this.
Andrew McIntosh: And I'll be
honest, I don't know I just kind
of stumbled on the term first
gen entrepreneur and then people
immediately started latching on
to it. And then I stumbled on
like that domain name was
available. And it just really
feels like I fell backwards into
this thing. But I love it. I
love the brand. I love how it's
self explanatory. And I love how
it connects with people, they
instantly go, that's me. And we
both know how we how we feel
about our journeys, just just by
a name. So I'm thrilled to have
it. Yeah,
Arvid Kahl: I'm so thrilled to
have had you on the show.
Because Thank you just so much
for explaining all these things
and letting me dive into your
community and learning from you
about building community,
learning from you about being an
entrepreneur and fostering
community. That was wonderful.
Thank you so much for being on
the show.
Andrew McIntosh: Well, thank you
very much. And let me just toss
it right back at you like the
bootstrapped founder, you've got
the same thing going there were
like the instant I saw that and
like, oh, that's me, you know,
and you know what, that you
know, what that entails, you
know, the emotions that come
with it. And you know, that when
you when you go to your website,
or you listen to your podcast,
you're gonna get real meat on
the bone in terms of the kind of
content it's this isn't fluff.
This isn't Frou Frou stuff. It's
like, I want to help the
Bootstrappers the underdogs, the
people that are doing this the
hard way to succeed. And so I
think I think we're both like,
that's why we're hitting it off.
So well. But thank you so much
for having me on the show. An
absolute
Arvid Kahl: pleasure. Thanks for
that, too. I'm glad that that
resonates with you just as much.
I should start a community
probably right. What do you
think?
Andrew McIntosh: It's a good
idea? I'm here.
Arvid Kahl: Oh, I'll give it a
go. Thanks so much for being on
the show.
Andrew McIntosh: Yeah, thank
you.
Arvid Kahl: And that's it for
today. Thank you for listening
to The Bootstrapped Founder. You
can find me on Twitter
@arvidkahl. You'll find my books
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have a great day. Bye bye.