Hello Hydrogen!

If we want to use hydrogen, we have to produce it. We can do this via a process called electrolysis. To find out all about this process, Celwin talks to Afkenel Schipstra from Uniper and Rene van der Meer from the PosHYdon project.

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Hello Hydrogen visits some of the world's most prestigious events and talks to world leaders in the field of hydrogen and energy. What needs to be done in order to switch to a hydrogen-based power grid? Is hydrogen in fact the fuel of the future? Listen, subscribe and find out!

Celwin Frenzen:

Welcome to Hello Hydrogen, a podcast series by the Port of Rotterdam Authority about the world of hydrogen which is coming to life in Rotterdam. In this second episode, I will dive into the world of electrolysis. Hydrogen is not something we dig up, like oil or gas, but something we have to produce. We do this via electrolysis. And to find out all about it I am talking to Avgenell Schibstra of UniPear and Rene van der Meer of the Poseidon project.

Celwin Frenzen:

First, I'm talking to Afkennel Schibstra. She leads Hydrogen Business of the Benelux and the h two Maslachte project at Uniper. H two mass flux is the electrolyzer Uniper intends to build on its existing site on the mass flux. But before we dive into that, I ask Afganel to explain how an electrolyzer works.

Afkenel Schipstra:

So an electrolyzer is a device that is uses electricity to split water. Water is h two o.

Celwin Frenzen:

Yeah.

Afkenel Schipstra:

So it splits it into hydrogen, h two, and oxygen, o two Alright. Through a process called electrolysis. And the electrolyzer consists of electrodes immersed in water Yep. And an electrolyte solution. And when an electric current is passed through the electrodes, the water molecules dis are dissociated into hydrogen and oxygen gas.

Celwin Frenzen:

Alright. So the, electrolyzer you're looking at on the Maasvlakte, can you tell us a bit more about that? What are what are the exact plans?

Afkenel Schipstra:

Yeah. We've got a beautiful location at the Maasvlakte. Of course, I'm sure you'll agree with me. On the coast, and it's where our coal fired power plant is located.

Celwin Frenzen:

Mhmm.

Afkenel Schipstra:

But there's a lot of space left, so we can easily develop a 500 megawatt electrolyzer there.

Celwin Frenzen:

Yep.

Afkenel Schipstra:

It's a brownfield project, so that means that a lot of utilities and other things are present already. So we've got the cooling water, of course, from the sea. There's also plenty of damon water, demineralized water, that you will actually use to produce the hydrogen.

Celwin Frenzen:

Yeah.

Afkenel Schipstra:

And we also have a grid connection available. So it's a very nice, site. And of course, probably the most important thing is that you have the landing of the offshore wind.

Celwin Frenzen:

Yep. We

Afkenel Schipstra:

have a tenant substation next door. Okay. And that's where the offshore wind, will come onshore.

Celwin Frenzen:

Yeah. And then you take the the electricity from there to use to power the electrolyzer.

Afkenel Schipstra:

Exactly.

Celwin Frenzen:

Yeah. Alright. Perfect. And you said it's going to be 500 megawatts.

Afkenel Schipstra:

So we'll start, likely with 100 megawatts. Mhmm. So it's a stepwise approach. Okay. But we already did the permitting for 500 megawatts and we've just finished the FEED studies, the front end engineering and design studies, also for 500 megawatts.

Afkenel Schipstra:

So we can easily scale up. So in case, of enough interest from the off takers, we can also scale up to 200 megawatts or 300 up to 500 megawatts.

Celwin Frenzen:

Okay.

Afkenel Schipstra:

And I told you we have, the coal fired power plant there.

Celwin Frenzen:

Yep.

Afkenel Schipstra:

This will stop working in 2029. That's, the law in the Netherlands. Mhmm. So all the coal fired power plants will stop.

Celwin Frenzen:

Yeah.

Afkenel Schipstra:

And that means that the coal yard will be removed and we can use that, space also for other additional 700 megawatts.

Celwin Frenzen:

Okay. So you're already looking to expand even further be beyond 1 gigawatt.

Afkenel Schipstra:

Yeah. Because Totally. I'm sure you'll agree with me. Rostam is a fantastic place to

Celwin Frenzen:

Yeah.

Afkenel Schipstra:

Build electrolyzers

Celwin Frenzen:

Mhmm.

Afkenel Schipstra:

Because we have the landing of offshore wind. There's about 7a half gigawatt plants

Celwin Frenzen:

Yep.

Afkenel Schipstra:

In total. And of course, we have the industry here that uses hydrogen. Yeah.

Celwin Frenzen:

So the off takers are here as well. So will the the plant then also be connected to the hydrogen backbone that's being developed at the moment?

Afkenel Schipstra:

Yeah. Absolutely. So we're talking to high network services now.

Celwin Frenzen:

Mhmm.

Afkenel Schipstra:

We have the connection study agreements, under review. And, we definitely want to be connected to the backbone, the hydrogen backbone.

Celwin Frenzen:

And the hydrogen you're going to produce, what is it going to be used for?

Afkenel Schipstra:

You can use it for a lot of things. You alluded to a couple of them already. I think initially, big use will be hydrogen as as feedstock

Celwin Frenzen:

in

Afkenel Schipstra:

the chemical industry.

Celwin Frenzen:

Mhmm.

Afkenel Schipstra:

For example, to make ammonia, for fertilizers or to make methanol. You can also use it for high temperature processes, and this is where you wouldn't normally electrify the process. So, perhaps it sounds strange coming from me, but if you can electrify a process, I would always choose that because that's much more efficient.

Celwin Frenzen:

Yeah.

Afkenel Schipstra:

But there are some parts of the energy transition that you can't. Mhmm. So that's where hydrogen can, play a good role.

Celwin Frenzen:

Yeah. And which parts are that?

Afkenel Schipstra:

So it's indeed feedstock, because you need some molecules. Yeah. Also in refinery processes, but also, for example, for, heavy duty mobility.

Celwin Frenzen:

Okay.

Afkenel Schipstra:

So trucks or trains, or even the maritime industry.

Celwin Frenzen:

Yeah.

Afkenel Schipstra:

Because, you can go much further with hydrogen than with an electric, ship or Yeah. Car.

Celwin Frenzen:

And when is the planning to for the plan to be operational?

Afkenel Schipstra:

Yeah. That really depends, of course, on a lot of things. But the planning for now is that we take a financial investment decision in 2026. Mhmm. And then we'll become operational in 2030.

Afkenel Schipstra:

So it would be September 26, operational in 2030.

Celwin Frenzen:

Okay.

Afkenel Schipstra:

And that also has to do with the, offshore wind that we contract. Mhmm. So the PPA that we will, sign Yeah. The per power purchase agreement, because it depends on when the offshore wind park is ready.

Celwin Frenzen:

And then, you you mentioned 2030, but the coal plant will close in 2029. So there will be a year overlap before everything is up and running for the electrolyzer.

Afkenel Schipstra:

Yeah. That's right. But it's it's a big site. So there are many different activities. Mhmm.

Afkenel Schipstra:

On the side, we're also looking at, for example, building a power plant that uses natural gas. And that will be, hydrogen ready.

Celwin Frenzen:

Mhmm.

Afkenel Schipstra:

So that we can use hydrogen in the future when when green hydrogen is much more available. Yeah. So there are many activities on the site. We even have a whole team coordinating all those, different activities.

Celwin Frenzen:

Okay. So in the end, the coal plants, will be gone entirely and then replaced with electrolyzer and the natural gas?

Afkenel Schipstra:

Yep. Yeah. But the electrolyzer will be on a on a spot that it's already available now.

Celwin Frenzen:

The h two mass flux electrolyzer by Uniper will see a significant upscale in capacity over the years, starting at 100 megawatts and possibly increasing to 500 megawatts or even 1 gigawatt. And Uniper is working closely with a familiar partner in the phase leading up to the construction.

Afkenel Schipstra:

I thought it would be nice to mention that, we're working very closely with the Port of Rotterdam. Mhmm. Also, on on thinking about our, project and thinking about, ideas for offtake, for example. So very recently, we've been put in touch with a maritime company that is interested in liquid hydrogen.

Celwin Frenzen:

Okay.

Afkenel Schipstra:

So that's that's just a great collaboration. And I think in general, the energies and transitions sees much more of this because nothing is is completely sure yet. We still have to discover our ways.

Celwin Frenzen:

Mhmm.

Afkenel Schipstra:

And I think there's just much more collaboration, than competition that you would have in the traditional energy.

Celwin Frenzen:

You mentioned liquid hydrogen. Is that, if they would need that, do you can also can you liquefy the hydrogen?

Afkenel Schipstra:

We would need a liquefaction plant for that. Yeah. So we're looking into that now. But it it's an actual, different, plants that you would need to

Celwin Frenzen:

Alright.

Afkenel Schipstra:

To accomplish that. You

Celwin Frenzen:

can't get it in a liquid form out of the electrolyzer? No.

Afkenel Schipstra:

That will be gaseous. So at Okay. At, and then depending on the temperature or the pressure, you can, liquefy

Celwin Frenzen:

it. Yeah. We're shifting our focus from onshore electrolysis to offshore. Most electrolyzers are being built on land but the Poseidon project is running a pilot on offshore production. To find out how this would work I'm meeting up with Rene van Emier, head of New Energy at Neptune Energy and head of the Poseidon project.

Celwin Frenzen:

He explains what the project entails.

Rene van der Meer:

Poseidon is quite a unique project. It is about a 1 megawatt electrolyzer, which we put on on one of our offshore facilities, which is a q 13. And if you're standing on the beach of Scheveningen, you can actually see it. Mhmm. And the nice thing of this platform is that when you're physically on the platform, underground, so in the underground, so in the form of oil and gas.

Rene van der Meer:

Yeah. But you also see in the surroundings, the, the wind turbines are being built for Sonoske site, and bringing that all together in the form of offshore hydrogen production. You actually have the 3 energy systems, together, and that's really unique for for Poseidon.

Celwin Frenzen:

Once the the the hydrogen is produced, how are you going to get it from the platform to land?

Rene van der Meer:

Yeah. The electrolyzer is is sitting on the platform, indeed. And, there, the hydrogen will be produced. The hydrogen will be brought to shore in a commingled stream with the natural gas.

Celwin Frenzen:

Mhmm.

Rene van der Meer:

And at the end, it will land on the mass flux, where it just disappears in the natural gas grid.

Celwin Frenzen:

And, what is the status of the project? Where are we now?

Rene van der Meer:

Yeah. We are currently in the, yeah, in the final phase, I I would say. So, our partners in the Poseidon projects, for example, Hadenbur and Nel, they have started delivering their their equipment

Celwin Frenzen:

Mhmm.

Rene van der Meer:

Which will be assembled on the Investa premises of Taka in Augmar, and that will become done in the coming months, actually. Yeah. And there, we will, connect it as such as it will be positioned on the offshore location. So we do ultimate testing and commissioning, and we will also produce hydrogen onshore. And, at the point that we are fully confident on the installation and works, like we want to, achieve in the ultimate case, then the whole, installation will be, will be disassembled, and it will be sent to offshore where we reassemble it again.

Rene van der Meer:

And then we start producing hydrogen, probably before the end of the year.

Celwin Frenzen:

Yeah. And how long will the pilot run when it's on the platform?

Rene van der Meer:

Yeah. Officially during for the, the diplus subsidy because this, this project was subsidized by means of, Mhmm. And, we need to produce hydrogen for for about a year. But, yeah, we need to see how how that actually works. And, yeah, at at some point in time, you probably capture all the learnings.

Rene van der Meer:

And, but after the the pilot, the the electrolytes will be sent to to shore again.

Celwin Frenzen:

Mhmm.

Rene van der Meer:

And there, it will have another duty as potentially a a fuel station for for hydrogen.

Celwin Frenzen:

Okay. Okay. And once the pilot is over and and you know all the learning, what what is the next step then?

Rene van der Meer:

Yeah. The the ultimate goal after Poseidon is, yeah, to build upon that in a in a larger scale.

Celwin Frenzen:

Mhmm.

Rene van der Meer:

So the the government has set 2 demonstration projects in the market, or we'll do that, in the future, which is demo a and, demo 1 and demo 2. Yeah. And this is about wind farms to be built, off grid. So these wind farms will produce hydrogen instead of, electricity, and that's, our ultimate goal. So together with, our partner, RW, we have been, in what we call the project.

Celwin Frenzen:

Yeah.

Rene van der Meer:

We've been doing that for for 2 or 3 years already, and we really like to participate in the tender of the demo 2, which is a 500 megawatt off grid wind farm to be built in the 10 order from the wind area.

Celwin Frenzen:

Alright.

Rene van der Meer:

So, that's our ultimate goal, at least, to, to to target off grid, wind power production Yeah. By means of existing infrastructure. And, yeah, and the and the the rationale behind that is if we can reuse or repurpose the this infrastructure, which is being used for decades for natural gas production.

Celwin Frenzen:

Mhmm. Yeah.

Rene van der Meer:

It could accelerate the energy production, sorry, the energy transition, but also, yeah, it keeps it affordable for the, for the for the energy users, in and around the Netherlands. Yeah. So reusing the existing infrastructure could really accelerate and, keep the energy transition affordable. And other, advantages is, yeah, we all have, environmental sensitive areas, for example, like the Wassersee. Mhmm.

Rene van der Meer:

We have pipelines being built in the in the seventies, which could be utilized, actually to, to host this this, tremendous amount of power in the form of molecules. So that prevents, the the the waters say to be crossed by means of, power cables.

Celwin Frenzen:

I see. And the tender you're talking about, when is that being, being released?

Rene van der Meer:

Yeah. That's not, clear yet.

Rene van der Meer:

I

Rene van der Meer:

think the government is preparing for that, tender. Also, what, the tender criteria should be.

Celwin Frenzen:

Mhmm.

Rene van der Meer:

So they do that, yeah, very precautious, and that's and that's all fine. So, I see that, for example, via the government. So I think that's that's a good preparation to work towards this tender. But when it will be, on the market, we don't know yet.

Celwin Frenzen:

How safe is hydrogen production offshore?

Rene van der Meer:

Yeah. That's a very good question. Of course, as oil and gas company, safety is on top of our priority list.

Celwin Frenzen:

Yeah.

Rene van der Meer:

So handling, hydrocarbons offshore, yeah, needs to be done in the in the in the safest way, and that also applies for hydrogen. Hydrogen is a flammable gas, just like natural gas, but on the other hand, it's not new. So, if you see the amount of hydrogen being produced in the Rotterdam area and being used in refineries, but also in food processing, It's it's not unique, but the combination of an offshore facility, handling hydrogen, yeah, that's that's, unique. So what we did in the form of Poseidon is we cross checked all safety measures, procedures, certifications. So we went through all the process of these, safety elements.

Celwin Frenzen:

Mhmm.

Rene van der Meer:

And, so the, yeah, the offshore hydrogen production will meet the safety standards, which we are used to for hydrocarbon production.

Celwin Frenzen:

Yeah. As we know with electrolysis, there's a lot of byproducts such as oxygen and warmth. What are you going to do with that in Poseidon? Yeah.

Rene van der Meer:

That's a going very good question. There are byproducts. Indeed, oxygen is one of those. So for the Poseidon project, those volumes are really, really limited. Mhmm.

Rene van der Meer:

Project, those volumes are really, really limited. Mhmm. But, for example, for we will vent the oxygen, but there are also ideas of disposing the oxygen into the seawater because there could have, additional ecological benefits. For example, in the Baltic Sea, there has been a pilot wherein there's less oxygen in the seawater, and there they intend to dispose the oxygen to the seawater, which could be, having ecological benefits. Another byproduct indeed is heat because electrolysis will generate about 30% of, losses in the form of heat.

Rene van der Meer:

It's a low temperature heat, but at at, and it's of megawatt scale of wind farm. There will be quite a lot of heat.

Celwin Frenzen:

Mhmm.

Rene van der Meer:

But this heat could, for example, be utilized for the seawater desalination because you need ultra pure water for your electrolysis process. And, yeah, preheating the seawater actually helps in this case. So that's, that's another, utilization of the byproduct we, we intend to intend to have and and investigate as a form of this, these pilot projects.

Celwin Frenzen:

Yep. What are the main benefits of offshore hydrogen production?

Rene van der Meer:

Yeah. The the main benefits is actually, the other the the that you convert from, let's say, wind, wind power into molecules as close to the energy source, itself. Mhmm. We, as an offshore operator, we know that everything you can do onshore and you should do onshore. So, historically, we also got questions for, why do we do electrolysis offshore while onshore is is much easier?

Rene van der Meer:

And and, yeah, we fully agree. So everything you could do onshore, you should do that. But if you ask about where the electricity needs to come from, then everybody's in pointing to an offshore wind farm. And then the story is different because if you, need to build an entire electric infrastructure from offshore to shore and convert it there into molecules, yeah, then, the the story is different because you need to build this whole new infrastructure. It comes at cost, but also takes time.

Celwin Frenzen:

Mhmm.

Rene van der Meer:

And again, it's, yeah, you are, need to cross sensitive areas again. So spatial planning is still an issue. And, if you utilize just a system which is there, yeah, there's will be less, ecological pressure, but also you could accelerate the energy transition and keeps it keep it affordable.

Celwin Frenzen:

Yeah. And and countering that question, what are the main challenges at this point for Poseidon?

Rene van der Meer:

Yeah. The main challenges indeed, of Poseidon is is that it has never been done at scale. So, offshore electrolysis comes with huge offshore installations, and, and that's the challenging part here. So, we are working close relationship with engineering companies, how that could work, but also wind turbine manufacturers have have ideas about it. And you see that that all parties are seeking for, for the right solution.

Celwin Frenzen:

Yeah.

Rene van der Meer:

And, so it's a journey you do with the entire value chain in the industry. And, and but that's the biggest challenge. So it has never been done before. It has never been done in combination with an, oil and gas production. So it's, it's the right, mindset but also level of education of people working with it, but also the safety standards needs to needs to be met.

Celwin Frenzen:

Yeah. So the the the it's never been done before? Does that mean this is the first ever offshore hydrogen production?

Rene van der Meer:

No. There is one, offshore hydrogen, production also at minimum scale, and that's off the coast of Normandy. But, the difference there is that, this this project is not on an on a live oil and gas platform, and, the Poseidon project will be. So, it will still be, unique in the world.

Celwin Frenzen:

In the next head of hydrogen

Marthe Fruytier:

What you currently see with the energy mix is that there's not one source of energy. There are multiple of them, and it also changes on economical and technical and environmental factors.

Celwin Frenzen:

Yeah.

Marthe Fruytier:

And I think that also will be the case with the hydrogen carriers.

Celwin Frenzen:

Thank you for listening to Hello Hydrogen. Don't forget to subscribe and rate the podcast wherever you find your podcasts. For more information on this podcast or hydrogen in the Port of Rotterdam, take a look at portofrotterdam.com/hydrogen.