047 | Jack Orr-Ewing | Nailing the Right Distribution Model; One Size Doesn’t fit All: How Different Models Suit Different Brand Life-Stages (Duppy Share Rum)

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In Episode 047 I continued the conversation with Jack Orr-Ewing from Ep. 046. He is the CEO of the Westbourne Drinks Company - The Duppy Share. He brings an incredible experience of the various stages of brand development from the start to reaching scale in a market. We dived into efficient marketing spend and how to align the route to market to each brand stage. I hope you will enjoy our chat.Time Stamps00:00 Introduction00:14 Shifting Into Management6:52 Dangers of Overeating as a Brand9:48 Systematizing Selling To 100's of Bars25:21 Adapting To Local Ecosystems29:01 Best Brand Awareness Tools33:15 The Fools Gold of Big Brand Events38:23 Sponsoring Events: Invisible Downsides & How To Capitalize43:38 Ending SegmentAbout The Host: Chris MaffeoAbout The Guest: Jack Orr-Ewing

Interested in Group Subscriptions, Keynote Presentations or Advisory? You can get in touch at [e-mail] or find out more at maffeodrinks.com 

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

Guest

Jack Orr-Ewing

CEO | The Duppy Share Rum

What is MAFFEO DRINKS?

The MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast is a leading drinks industry podcast delivering frontline insights for drinks leadership.

For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

Insights come from sitting at the bar.

Beyond episodes: advisory for leadership teams, subscription with episode deep dives and principles to navigate your own reality.

Beer, wine, spirits, Low and non-alcoholic.

Bottom-up Insights & Episode Deep Dives at https://maffeodrinks.com

Welcome to the Mafia Drinks
Podcast.

I'm your host Chris Mafia.
In episode 47.

I continue the conversation with
Jack or Ewing from episode 46.

I hope you will enjoy our chat.
So let's now talk a little bit

about the journey of your brand
like the brand started as an

independently founded brand and
then you know you go through a

journey and then you you need to
accommodate that growth that

comes with and the distribution
efforts and you know all the

things you mentioned earlier.
What is the biggest shift when

when actually starting to raise
money and and being funded and

then all of a sudden you're not
the only person in in the

founding team so to say.
Yeah.

I mean it's a great question I
think and a lot of spirits

brands, a lot of founders of
spirits brands do it to achieve

some sort of scale.
I think there are two types of

independent spirit.
You've got the kind of lifestyle

brand of someone that loves
making products and they love

the idea of selling, you know,
having that drink drunk in some

of their favorite bars.
And maybe their ambitions is, is

to sell a few 1000 bottles and
to kind of keep their, you know,

they might do it on the side of
running a bar or something.

And then then you've got a group
of people that found spirits

brands because they want to
create a profitable and

lucrative business.
And you know I think you as soon

as you start looking under the
hood of these brands and looking

at the P&L and to kind of model
out that P&L for multiple years

and think how big do I need to
get before I can start paying

myself a decent salary.
I can hire a team that can do

the job that's you know I'm
currently doing everything.

I don't have, you know, if I'm
going to afford A-Team, if I

want to have an office, if I
want to go on holiday one day.

You know those sort of things.
You know you sort of model out

what what that is and you
realize quite quickly within an

affordable premium category
you've got to sell an awful lot

of bottles and you've got to
sell, you know we're selling

half a million bottles the year
at the moment.

We're still lost making, we're
still reliant on on

shareholders.
We we're forecasting our first

year of EBIT positive, you know
grow next year, you know that

and that's still adding another
10,009 liters.

And I think next year we should
should deliver our first EBIT

positive year in year 10.
So you've got to have an A kind

of runway of an awful lot of
essential investors and have

people bought into your journey
if you'd fail to achieve that

source of investment pattern and
growth level.

So you know Duffy, we were
actually in the Distal Ventures

program.
So while we were on the first

people that went into the Diageo
incubator program, we were on

the first people to come out of
it.

You know because they we were
alongside same cohort as Seedlip

Seedlif for a phenomenal brand.
That timing was was incredible.

Ben and Emma Wikes who actually
now sits on our board created

that brand and they were so
successful that Duffy's modest

success within our first two
years we were doing 2009 needs

cases.
You know, Distal Ventures pulled

out of us, which suddenly meant
that having been a kind of well

funded brand George and had to
kind of lose most of his team

was going back to square one and
had to look for independent

investors.
You know that's when I joined

the brand in 2017 and the two of
us together almost had to start

from scratch and we had the
great product, great, great

brand, nice liquid and we had
listings and maybe couple of 100

bars and Sainsbury's at the
time.

And you know from that basis we
had to raise capital.

We raised I think 250 or 300K
for that first year.

I remember seeing that money
come into the bank account and

thinking well we are rich, you
know, fantastic, you know, never

have to raise money ever again.
And then sort of five months

later I looked at the bank
account and thought right we

need to raise a lot more money.
That was that didn't last even 5

minutes having raised that first
fund and we brought, you know

that was friends and family
basically you know my brother

and George's brother and a few
of our friends who were a bit

older who put put a little bit
of money in, you know that then

took us through to bus retail
listings as we added Morrison's,

I think Co-op came on board.
So we went from kind of London

brands with with Sainsbury's to
London brand with five or six

big national accounts.
You're probably doing 6 or 7009

liters by that stage.
So it's kind of getting up to an

interesting scale bit more
reliable income coming in.

This is all through 20/17/2018
where you've got kind of SIP

Smith going for 60 million,
you've got Cos Amigos going for

a billion.
So you've got all these kind of

lovely proof points going
through to all the investors

showing that if you get it
right, spirits Browns can be

very lucrative for investors.
So we then went back to our

investor base, got a lot of
extra introductions and raised a

£2,000,000 funds at it was an
11,000,000 valuation.

So that was a kind of nice big
step forward for us where we

felt that there was great
momentum in the brand.

That was 2019.
So that gave us a nice runway.

That was the first time we had a
proper office.

We had two employees and then
three and then four.

So we had a sort of decent sized
team.

That was quite a big difference
for us as a manager.

You sort of stop doing
everything, stop running every

bar, stop delivering every case,
you know doing every trade show

they have to do and you start
kind of managing people.

Since then scale has been about
more countries, more people,

more distribution and you know,
we've kind of grown and grown,

but it feels like a very, very
different business from where we

were seven or eight years ago.
It's bigger problems and bigger

worries you get with a bigger
business and you can kind of

can't control everything all at
once.

And when your business is a bit
bigger, the bit the big

difference for me is there's the
fear or the kind of concern that

you know the the numbers are
quite big.

So if you if you suddenly need
to order another tanker of rum,

you know that's a 200,000 lbs
order, you know, which is an

awful lot of money.
We have previously you could do

a production run which might
cost you 4000 lbs and that will

kind of keep you going for a
couple of months.

And if you don't have £4000 you
can quickly raise a bit of money

and make sure that all works.
But you know, nowadays it's my

job as ACEO is all about kind of
resource planning, financial

management, cash flow
management, making sure that,

you know, every commercial deal
stacks up that were being paid

for the invoices that we raise
very different worlds to

engaging bartenders and
desperately trying to kind of do

a cool enough event that you get
a listing in some place.

It's a much less kind of scrappy
day-to-day job and thinking bit

more than macro.
That's a crazy journey and it it

brings me back to one of the the
points that I often discuss with

guests here on the on the show.
With that be careful what you

wish for now because somebody
listening can can say, oh wow

you got a listing in whatever
Tesco or Morrison's or Sainsbury

or whatever.
But that comes with some rules

of engagement and if you don't
have a a cash flow, I mean if

you if you don't have enough
runway to make that order, that

will, yeah, there will provide
bottles for the next order.

And in the meantime you get paid
with the three terms, you know,

then all of a sudden you're
basically going bust just for

just for an order basically.
Yeah.

Well, one of our board members,
very sage advice that early

doors was there are plenty of
brands that fail because they're

too successful.
I if you get, if you get too

many listings all the same time
and you haven't got the cash in

place, you will go bust because
you can't all for their orders

and you run out of money.
So you can run our money by

being unsuccessful and not
selling enough or you can run

out of money, but being too
successful and running out of

money and and sort of finding
that middle ground is actually,

you know an enormous challenge
And you're so right about the

big, the big listings and we'll
go on to talk about distribution

in a moment.
But one of the things that you

get with working with a
distributor versus doing things

direct is that with a
distributor you've got, you

know, someone who can manage
your working capital for you.

You know they will buy from you
on the bond they will pay you in

30-45 days depending on what
your terms are.

You know that compared to
selling direct into Asda or

Morrison's or Tesco paying all
the duty on day one, now you're

selling something that has cost
you 12 or 13 lbs to build and

you're being paid 14 or 15 lbs
in 90 days time.

That listing might be making you
on pay for 30 or £40,000 a year,

but it's costing you £200,000 a
year in working capital to

create that.
So you know for the first four

years you're in a grocery,
you're in in negative cash

position.
So it's not really the kind of

panacea that you think it's
going to be, you know, when you

start, when you start going into
these big conversations.

Yeah.
And and this is, this is, this

is something that I think very
few people understand, you know

like the the cash flow kind of
issue, you know because you

think like what what the hell
are you guys talking about?

You got a nice order.
You get so many clients you do

you just have to deliver some
goods back or somebody has to

pay for the for those goods?
I'll be making so much money, I

won't need to care about cash
flow.

Trust me, Chris, I've thought
that many times.

You know, why don't you?
Tomorrow, you know I'm sending

so much rum.
You are not.

Cash flow is the most important
thing, and it's the most

difficult thing to understand.
Absolutely and and and and tell

me like like talking about
distribution you mentioned

direct, indirect and you know
without, without let's say

parking aside the the the big
retailers you know like this

huge orders and this negotiation
with with big accounts in the

off trade.
Talking about the the earlier

journey on the on trade you know
to get you mentioned at some

point that you were having like
102 hundred bars that you were

that you were selling to.
How did you sell that, like did

you, did you start direct, did
you start with the with the

third party, with distributor,
how did that start?

We've been through a lot of,
John, a lot of different setups.

So I feel sort of reasonably
well based to kind of talk about

pros and cons of each set up.
So early doors, we were with

Spirit Cartel, fantastic small
distributor in the UK.

They were basically called three
or four people at the time, but

they had Berkman, which is a big
wholesale listening behind them.

So they had to cut trade
accounts with all these key

customers that we want to be in
and we worked with them for kind

of three years.
They they got us those those

initial listings and the kind of
asters and and and Mcmorris and

to co-ops.
But you know they have their

margin aspirations to to that
they wanted to kind of go for

and we were finding that we were
doing these deals with Green

King, with Turtle Bay, you know
the big national deals.

And because our cogs weren't
quite in the right place and

because we were doing a lot of
the work to support them and you

know all of the retro deals and
making the price work to get

into these big national
accounts.

As much as we were growing, we
weren't actually making any

money because all the money was
going to our distributor who was

you know making a 15 to 25%
margin, all that product.

And you know what they were
doing was kind of servicing the

product and moving it through
and they were doing a fantastic

job of that.
And you know I think probably

naively as brand owners we were
thinking where's our cash from

all this and you know we're
we're doing as much work as

anyone to bring these new
listings in and to support the

the listings all this money.
Why should we make no money and

our distributor make some money.
And I think there's there's

always this difficulty when
you've got a medium sized brand

team sitting in the same country
as a medium sized distributor.

Now we had five people working
Gaddafi share, they had four

people working at Spirit Cartel.
You know, they were making 20%.

We are making 0% on somebody's
pick figure count and we were

doing all the work to bring in.
So there was a bit of inherent

tension there between US and
then and we probably didn't

value enough the value that
they're bringing to that

relationship.
And after we did that big 2019

fundraise, we then moved into
Tortuga, which is a much, a

very, very interesting and I
think a brilliant distribution

option, which is a kind of
hybrid between direct and

distributed.
So Tortuga do all of your back

office, they hold your stock on
consignment, They receive orders

kind of as a portfolio.
There are 20 or 30 brands that

use Tortuga.
So they receive orders from the

big wholesalers, the big
national retailers.

As a portfolio, you get all the
benefits of someone sitting in

back office, receiving that
order, organizing a transport,

kind of organizing invoicing and
proof of deliveries and all that

kind of boring stuff you just
don't want to be involved in.

As a brand, you get the kind of
benefit of group transport.

So if you're sending stuff into
the big wholesalers, you'll be

five or six brands on that
order.

So you can kind of step away
from all the kind of boring,

difficult bits of logistics by
chain or warehousing and focus

on selling and marketing your
brand.

Four years that was a really,
really good solution for us

because we had a big enough team
to be able to bring the because

sales opportunities in and
Tortuga had the kind of back

office to be able to manage all
those orders for us for what is

a very small fee.
I think we're paying them less

than £2000 a month to to kind of
organize all that stuff for us.

You know to have an operations
manager doing that job for us,

you have to pay them towards
your 50 grand.

So you know it's a really good
value for money solution,

allowed us to focus on what was
good for us.

And I think so the most recent
change for Duffy, if we moved

into proof drinks, brilliant
portfolio company, I think we

did that a year too late.
We got to a stage where as a

team of three or four people,
you know we had eight people,

nine people at Duffy, only two
of them are in sales.

That is not enough of a sales
team to look after what was 4000

stocking points in the UK.
And you kind of asking your head

of sales to do a brilliant job
managing grocers, a brilliant

job managing cash and carry a
brilliant job managing top 50

bars, doing trade marketing
plans with your kind of cool

national on trade.
You know, it's a huge amount of

work to do and we just didn't
have the sales team in place to

do it.
And I do think the kind of

unspoken thing within conspiracy
is that it doesn't really work

as an independent trying to fund
as even as junior salesperson on

a 30 or 40,000 LB salary is
really difficult to sell enough

rum to cover that salary, let
alone the, you know, the office

costs, all the non salespeople,
oil marketing costs, it's

virtually impossible.
These things work by putting

them into a big portfolio
company Proof have got 55

salespeople out in the market.
They've got real experts that

you know, they've got five or
six people in their retail team.

They have joint business plans
for all the big retailers.

They know exactly when they're
kind of listing.

When those are, you know they
can do a much better job than

you and your sales team.
And recognizing that before, we

recognize that a year it's too
late.

Within Tuffy we had a year of
slowing down our growth a little

bit last year and this year
through proof we've kind of got

back to good profitable growth
and everything going a lot

better.
I've been a great advocate of

distribution, a great advocate
of direct, and now I'm a great

advocate of working with the
biggest and best distribution in

the country.
It's very interesting what

you're saying because I mean
you're pretty much lining up all

the possible options when it
comes to distribution.

Now.
So if I understand correctly,

the first one was a typical
third party distribution deal.

The the, the challenge with that
is that probably there were box

movers in the sense of not
adding value in terms of

justifying those margins.
I think it was a bit of naivety

on our part because I don't
think we understood the value

that they were bringing.
And one of the things that you

don't see is all the costs of
transport and logistics and

warehousing.
So what I'm seeing is someone

setting my product for 7 lbs and
it you know, adding your duty

and then making what looks like
5 lbs a bottle and me making 1

LB a bottle or 4 lbs a bottle.
Yeah, you suddenly think why

should they make more money than
me?

But I wasn't really calculating
all the costs of their sales

team, the cost of distribution,
the cost of warehousing and

storage, any kind of, you know,
any issues that you're getting

with, you've delivered the wrong
products.

The.
Or not.

Yeah.
All these things that happen in

the supply chain, you sort of
forget that actually you've got

a physical product that's is
quite complicated, living here

quite heavy.
There are lots of compliance

around it.
You know, it's quite hard, easy

to forget that when you're
sitting in an office thinking of

a cool marketing campaign to
come up with or making a

PowerPoint deck about how
brilliant your brand is.

You forget this in physicality
and of of actually moving a

product around the country.
You mentioned earlier with the

fact that you were, in terms of
overheads, you were a similar

number.
So you were assuming that they

had the same costs without
touching on the other costs that

you didn't see.
So you were just yeah, maybe

like focusing on, you know,
they've got five people, we we

have 5 people.
Why do we make no money?

They make all the money.
And the big argument for them,

which I of course stand by, is
that as a brand you are building

brand equity by selling another
10,000 bottles.

You are adding value to your
brand, whereas your distributor

doesn't have any brand equity to
them selling bottles that

they're not making money from
the bottles they sell today.

It's a pointless business model
for them.

Whereas there is a business
model.

It's a great point, you know,
right Rightfully or wrongfully

you might criticize and often
people do criticize this because

of model within consumer product
brands is that there is a

business model which is grow
your brands to a scale which is

interesting and then you'll you
have a intrinsic brand value

even if you're not making huge
amount of money out of it.

And yeah, let the investors take
the hit of losing money for a

medium sized period of time
until you hit a scale which is

profitable and then you've got a
really valuable brand and those

investors will make their money
back and you know you can, you

can survive without further
investment because you've built

a scale brand.
So you know, there's definitely

a good argument for, you know,
the brand should be the one

taking the bath for a long time
until until they can hit the

scale.
That's a that's a great point

actually what you're raising
because it's in a way like the

the distributor has to monetize
short term because the brand is

not theirs and you know the
brand, the owner.

And if they can afford the, if
they go to run enough runway,

they can monetize a little bit
later because they're building a

brand that you know that is it's
growing in value.

But then move moving to the
second to the second light, the

Tortuga example, then it was
basically that they were doing

all the all the third party like
you know the logistics and the

clearance and compliance kind of
part, but you were acting

salespeople.
So it was your.

We were doing all the sales, all
the account management, all the

sort of business planning that
you do with your with your trade

accounts and that was really,
really successful for three or

four years.
We had lots of money.

We could stimulate consumer
demand through consumer

marketing and.
We were growing mainly through

adding on three or four good
sized accounts.

We added on Waitrose one year,
we added on Wetherspoons the

next year.
We added on Tesco the year after

that and each of the bolt on
kind of two or 3009.

These cases to your brand and
you kind of grow through having

five or six successful brand
conversations between a founder

or your head of sales with your
head of a large national

account.
And so you're able to kind of

manage those big national
accounts from a small team base

by having those kind of found
led conversations.

And I think what we the gap that
we sort of noticed that was

growing in our distribution was
that we didn't really have an

independent free trade strategy.
We weren't going into

convenience.
We weren't doing the kind of

local premium whole you know
wholesale stuff that you get all

around the country and you know
I think duck, duck be the big

hole in Duffy's kind of
distribution footprint was that

we were overly reliant on 14 or
15 customers.

I think we were doing 90% of our
sales through 14 or 15 customers

and you know that gives you a
lot of risk.

I think we were very lucky as
they did a big cut off of their

products in 2021 just as Tesco
came on board and we managed to

kind of maintain our growth and
our overheads because of just

pure luck timing of managing get
Tesco to come take over from

Asda.
But you know the time time as

there was 30% of our whole
business.

You know, it's a really risky
position to put yourself in as a

brand, to have so much for
business reliant on on a couple

of customers.
OK, I see.

So so you were driving that
through the multiple on trade,

you know like the the the big
bigger groups on their own trade

side.
And so it was basically like a

business that was still managed
very much on a on a key account

kind of basically whether it was
on or off.

On both sides.
And you know that was the right

thing to the brand at the time
to do and it it generated the

growth and it allowed us to hit
the scale that we've achieved.

And then I think it then became
apparent that in order to fill

that gap of independent free
trade, the smaller groups, the

regional groups, the only way of
doing that is to go back into

distribution and to rely on a
much larger distribution team.

And and actually you get a huge
amount of benefit from you know

proofs key product of Kascobel
Tequila.

They're about two times bigger
than us.

They're brilliant.
So leading independent tequila

brand in the UK and every bar
that sells Kascobel should sell

Duffy share and they've already
got accounts open with them.

They've got really good
relationships with them.

They're selling a decent amount
of mid price premium Tequila and

we're a mid price premium rum.
And there's, you know, on the

cocktail list that has Kasco and
there's absolutely no reason,

unless it's a kind of Day of the
Dead activation in a Mexican

restaurant, you know, that they
shouldn't be Duffy sharing.

So they've been brilliant and
they've opened up a huge amount

needed for us in the last year
for Duffy.

And you know, we're really,
really confident that was the

right decision and the right,
the right time to move across.

That's that's very interesting.
It's very clear.

And and what what could you have
done differently in terms of for

example, I could you have gone
with a a setup like the last

one, you know like the current
one you've got in the beginning

or you would have been the wrong
you probably could.

When we went back to the market
to look for a distributor in the

end of last year, so this time
last year we were looking, you

know we were the largest
independent Rum Brown in the UK

and we were and we were
definitely the biggest Rum Brown

that didn't have a distributor.
So there were lots of

distributors that wanted
something that with our scale.

So we were able to negotiate a
really good deal with proof we

negotiate to the great growth
rates that we've get lots of

visibility and priority within
there in their portfolio.

And you know we went in as their
number two brands.

You know there's Cascobel #1,
Duffy #2 and there's quite a big

gap between US and #3.
So we know we're, we're a

mainstream product within their
portfolio and they're kind of

national teams all think a lot
about Duffy share and we're top

priority and we get lots of
access to their top teams.

You know you wouldn't get that
as a as a startup independent

brand.
So I wouldn't necessarily

recommend you know the the the
startup they guppy share that

was founded yesterday to go
straight into proof drinks.

One, they probably wouldn't take
you because it's a lot of work

for no volume.
And two, even if they did take

you, it would take quite a long
time for them to give you the

time of day and the focus to get
actually get you that

distribution and you'd have to
do a large amount of that work

yourself.
It's all about timing and

forcing the scale to get to a
size that you can do the deals

that are going to get you to the
next stage.

I always think always think of
running a spirits brand as like

spinning plates.
You have to do like just enough

marketing to catch the eye of
the distributors and catch the

eye of the big retailers just
before that plate rubs out the

money and falls over.
And you you win that next bit of

distribution and that takes you
to the next stage.

And it's a kind of dance to kind
of slowly grow all these

channels at the right stage to
try and and keep the lights on.

And and and what would you say
because listening to you, I mean

like this story, it's very
peculiar to the UK market now

because there's there's a lot of
market.

If I, if I think of Czech
Republic for example, like

there's a lot of markets that
don't have this kind of managed

on trade now like this multiple
on trading and it's much more

independent.
It's like it can be a 90%

independent on trade markets
versus a market that can be

quite nicely supported by
managed on trade.

So assuming it's your home
market, what would you do?

Like would you, would you scale
up with your own team, like with

a couple of sales people from
your own team and and sell

direct?
You've got to, you've got to

prioritize the markets where
there's an opportunity to get

5000 cases quite quickly.
And if if you're a Czech brand

and Czech Republic, it's not
feasible for you to get up to

5009 liters on your own there,
you should be moving.

You should be moving the team or
moving your focus to France or

Italy or Benelux or to Holland
where there is quite a no good

broad market for premium spirits
and the people are happy

drinking roll on the rocks.
And I think she probably Duffy's

strength and weakness, you know
we have fought the good fight in

the most expensive and
competitive market in the world.

Everyone's trying to build fair
brands in the UK and absolutely

bloody expensive and no one
makes any money out of it

because the duty is so high.
So we probably should have

focused on France and Italy and
Germany and Czech Republic a bit

earlier because you know that
their markets were you can

actually make some money I think
getting into distribution as

quickly as possible.
You want professional people

selling a portfolio doing that
job rather than you selling your

independent spirits as quickly
as possible, as unique, as

interesting as kind of USP laden
as your brand might be.

It still is best easier to sell
it as part of portfolio.

There are a couple of brands I
think AU Vodka is a brilliant

example of it, Moth drink, I
would call that you know not

sure if you come across them
there.

There is a really premium RTD
cocktail mixer in the UK You

know they're they're they're
kind of 1,000,000 brands that

have a really differentiated
proposition.

They get their marketing and
their proposition just right at

the right time and they are big
enough to expand independently

and to have us a big team of
people to do that.

And you know their rate of sale
is strong enough on a kind of

individual site level that it's
worth having people selling to

those individual sites.
I would say if your rate of sale

in a pub is half a bottle a
week, and that's that's quite

generous, sometimes it's less
than half bottle a week in the

pub to cover your tube fare to
get to that pub And let alone

the time, it's it costs to speak
for that bartender and to send

in the POS and to give them AT
shirt and give them a free

bottle for selling the most.
It's it's an incredibly

expensive job to do that and it
only really works at scale.

You've got to have 1000 pubs
selling half a bottle a week in

order to start generating enough
money to pay for, you know, the

overheads and the T-shirts.
So realizing that as early as

possible and to keep your team
and your overheads isn't as lean

as you possibly can.
And to have third party

distributors who are brilliant
and selling a portfolio and

thinking of you in the round and
out there, you know, having

thousands of conversations a
day, you won't get to that stage

as quickly as possible rather
than trying to earn every pound

and you're in the sales process.
Yeah, I think it's a bit of a

false economy.
And that's, I mean that's a

super valuable advice and and I
think it it, it goes back to to

what you were saying earlier to
to do the minimum marketing in

order to be noticed by
wholesaler.

So I would say like it, it's
it's to do the minimum leg work

by yourself in order to be
visible and show that you've got

skin in the game and you are not
afraid of getting your hands

dirty to be visible from a
wholesaler perspective because

otherwise you know you're never
going to get into it.

So it it becomes this kind of
like Catch 22 in which it

doesn't make sense for you to go
direct, but then the the

wholesaler doesn't want to get
you on board and then how do you

manage to convince those people
to actually?

But you could, you've done this
a lot, lot longer than me,

Chris.
What what if you were to go

allocate some some money to
consume marketing.

Where do you think that money is
best spent?

What what what are those
channels that you think actually

it's really worth building brand
awareness.

So it's really worth this kind
of the ROI on on on some

marketing money.
For me it's it's 100%, you know,

spending money in the trade.
When I think about influencers,

for me the only influencers are
bartenders.

When I think of events, the only
event events that make sense are

events in a bar that is already
selling my product and to be

honest, I ride it very often in
my newsletter and in my post.

If you've got £100, you know,
spend them in a couple of bars

where you want to get listed,
you know, that's the first

investment for me because you
know a lot of people, they they

spend, they focus on spending
the 10K on a boot stand and then

they said they don't have £15
for a cocktail.

But you need to go and sit at
that bar, you know, and talk to

those people and then even be a
customer 1st and then eventually

they'll get you on board, you
know, without showing out with a

backpack and a bottle and you
know, taking the bottle out on

the on the first date.
It's a very interesting

conversation because depending
on the market, you know, there's

no one-size-fits-all, but there
are some markers that you can

see and and read and make you
understand what you should do

where.
And you constantly look at what

your competitive sets are doing
and you sort of see their big,

their big moments.
You know they but but it's easy

to forget that they might only
have one or two big moments a

year and they're the sort of
biggest brands that that are

actually noticed by things.
And if you keep looking on your

Instagram and your LinkedIn and
what other brands are doing, you

get this anxiety.
You're not doing enough

marketing.
We run this group called Kindred

Spirits which is started with
three founders in the UK.

It was Tarquin's Gin, Duffy
Share and East London Liquor

Company, and we started sort of
moaning about being running a

spirits brand and sharing lots
of stuff.

And as we kind of grew, we
started adding new people onto

it.
And this group has just

organically grown into 400 brand
owners that sit in the UK and

it's a very, very active group.
There's 20,000 messages that

have been sent on that group.
We did our first ever in real

life.
We did a Kindred Spirits party

and award ceremony at the end of
the year and I sort of took on

board to run that a couple of
weeks ago.

And one of the awards that we
gave out was best marketing

campaign and you know there are
400 brands on there.

And the one marketing campaign
that anyone could read,

genuinely think of and voted for
in their thousands or in the

hundreds was Lucky St.
Brilliant to non out brands that

had done a out of home dry
January campaign and they had

spent 100 grand, probably 200
grand on two bad birds.

And it's interesting that across
across those 400 brands, there

was 1 meaningful campaign that
someone that we all recognized

as being a campaign that
actually, you know, people have

noticed that it probably made
more people actually aware of

that brand than previously that.
And everyone else had probably

spent 10s of thousands, if not
hundreds of thousands of pounds

each on marketing and hadn't
been noticed by our peers in our

industry, That alone consumers
out there.

So yeah, it was a bit big eye
opening to me, but unless you're

going to go really big, you
should probably keep keep your

marketing narrow and small.
Yeah, 100%.

I've I've been working for many
brands and I've I've got I

would, I would call it the
luxury back back then I I I

didn't realize it was a luxury.
You know, when I was working on

Sebi Miller and building Peroni
like I I never had ATL money.

You know, like.
Even for those big brands.

In my markets, not counting the
UKI mean only UK and easily had

money for ATL.
But you know all the rest of the

market where I launched with the
team, you know like Spain,

France, Sweden, Finland, Turkey,
Germany, you name it like all

the other let's say continental
EMEA.

So to say, you know there was
never budget for for ATL, you

know like everything was having
your hands dirty moving the

brand yourself.
Like where there was like I mean

starting with bottles then
moving into kegs but even eggs

for example like they so much
pain to to maneuver, you know

returns on kegs and so on that
you know only if it makes sense

otherwise you know go with
bottle.

So I'm a big fan of
simplification in the business

because, you know, otherwise
you, you get stuck into this

formal of like fear of missing
out kind of thing.

Oh, like you look at what what
they're doing.

You look at what they're doing
over what they're launching or

we should launch it as well.
You don't know what's going on

in their office.
You don't know the reasons why.

You know, maybe they're sitting
on a huge stock of something and

they want to launch a product or
maybe they're launching on a,

you know, unfulfilled capacity
in the brewery and they are

pushing out a cheaper liquid for
a particular brand that they

always sounded like need to
launch.

You know you don't know what's
going on because you're not in

their brain and you know in the
in their.

World.
That's what's so good about this

this kindred spirits group is
that you, you see someone do you

know a bit of marketing and on
the tube or they do a big event

or a festival or you see them
doing a big activity within a

supermarket and you say, Oh my
God, you know, I saw you do

that.
Well done.

That looks amazing.
And the founder will also

message you back privately going
absolute disaster.

I don't never know never known a
bigger wish to money in my life.

I don't know why we did that.
You know, and to have that kind

of realism that someone's
willing to tell you like

terrible mistake where if you
just look at it, you think like

why am I not doing, you know,
taking over the whole of Whole

Foods Market and taking a window
and Whole Foods and building a

giant on the Buffy chat.
You know, you know the all the

other founders have done that
regret it.

And and and to be honest, it's
it's about your objective.

No.
I mean if you need that window

because you need to put it on a
on a Peach deck or you need to

put it on a presentation to
Tesco, how much does it cost and

what's the reason why you're
doing it now?

I I remember for example like I
was one of the people behind

being doing cocktails with with
Peroni back in the days.

You know, we're talking 2015
with my friend Federico Rezo

from, you know, he was working
at the House of Peroni.

And then we started saying like,
why don't we export this idea of

like cocktails with Peroni and
and and we we launched it in

Finland and Sweden, then Spain
and and then when I left Peroni,

I heard a lot of gossips and
stuff is like, Oh no, we

cancelled that because that
doesn't work.

There.
Was it such a waste of money?

And now it now it go, now it
went back, you know, now it came

back And then all of a sudden,
like what I was telling them is

that, guys, you misunderstood
the point.

I mean, like, I wasn't doing it
because I wanted to sell

cocktail with Peroni.
It wasn't about the cocktail.

I was happy if we were selling
one or two per night, you know,

the thing was to engage
bartenders in a conversation

that have become very boring for
me on going there with with a

usual story about Italian style
in a bottle and blah, blah,

blah, blah, blah.
I wanted, I wanted to gain some,

you know, very interesting
outlets on which the bartenders,

you know, like it wasn't a pub,
you know, it wasn't a stylish

bar in the center of Helsinki or
in the center of Stockholm.

And I wanted to have that kind
of conversation to enable that

and, you know, to have some cool
events with some, you know,

regulars of that outlet or, you
know, but it was all about

driving the share of mind of
then drinking petroni as a

normal bottle and not as a
cocktail, you know.

But if you don't clarify that
and probably it was also my

mistake not having made it super
clear back then, you know, all

of a sudden it becomes like, you
know the the ROI of a certain

activation gets misunderstood.
And all of a sudden then they

say like let's cut it because it
doesn't work.

But then there was the thing
that got me into the most

important entree chain in
Finland.

And if I didn't have that and I
and if I had gone there with a

bottle in my hand, just like
please list it, they would have

said no, thank you, you know, So
that you need to really

understand because then what
happens is that often like that

activation maybe without
specific brief, gets bread

brought over to another country,
executed totally wrongly, Yeah.

And then it gets cut large by
management.

I totally agree.
I mean we were offered the

opportunity, a wonderful
opportunity to sponsor the

England Against W Indies cricket
tour.

So, you know, we've never done
any above the line advertising

in our life and we were sort of
getting quite close to agreeing

to start doing a Buffalo and
advertising and Barbados and

Antigua and truly that's where
we'd never been and we don't

even sell our products.
And you know Channel 4 was

saying, I know for 20,000 lbs.
And we had all of the all of the

boundaries and that we sort of
nearly did it.

And then we decided to just send
out a case of rum so that a

bottle of rum was given to the,
you know, the man, man of the

match winner.
And they put on their Instagram

a nice picture of the man of the
Match winner holding a bottle of

Duffy show.
And each time that cost us five,

you know, 50 lbs.
Stupid to do that.

But we were able to then amplify
it and put it on our Instagram

and our LinkedIn to say official
realm of the West Indies tour

for the England cricket team.
Congratulations to so and so

who's won the award which does
pretty much exactly the same

value as what you what the
20,000 LB spend was going to be.

And finding those kind of
tactical clever uses or, you

know, the amplification of a few
marketing migrants is actually

much master than paying the full
fees and trying to get get your

plan out there. 100 percent,
100%, it just you just reminded

me of a similar thing that I did
with the team when it was stock

on Fashion Week and we we wanted
to be there.

But again, they offered us the
sponsorship and it was like a

crazy amount of money.
I mean it was probably like 60%

of the yearly budget of that
brand in the market.

And then I was like, you know,
we cannot do that.

But, you know, then we could be
official beer.

You know, so we would basically
sponsor the, the, the closing

nights party.
You know, we could be you know,

having a photo wall.
We could have like you know,

just something on a on a Fashion
Week.

There was official Mercedes-Benz
Fashion Week and we would be

sitting together with more
Chandon and all the champagne

brands because that's ultimately
what we wanted, you know.

And again, it wasn't like
creating anything crazy.

It was just like why do we need
to be the official sponsor of a

Fashion Week?
That doesn't make any sense.

So for example we what what we
did with to enter there, we we

sponsored one of the upcoming
designers which actually

happened to be Italian as well.
And you know and then it was

like his party was actually you
know like sponsored by us.

So it similar example to what
you were saying.

You know, sometimes you can find
a way to get almost the same

outcome for 110th of the money.
And if if ever someone says to

you we need rum, we need we need
drink for a party you can be the

you know the only the only
spirit available And I say no

where are we the only spirit.
If I'm giving away free drinks I

want as many other spirits there
as possible, though I don't have

to give away as many.
And it's much better to have

four or five other brands all
saying what a brilliant event

this is and great to be here
next to Guppy Share.

And you want a couple of
pictures from that event to say

look at us activating with this
relevant group of people.

The fact that you've got away
with one case of rum rather than

20 cases of rum because there's
a beer there of a vodka and gin,

you get the exact same out of
it.

And all the people that are at
that event still, if they don't

like Duffy Share, they still are
aware of it.

And the ones that do, like Duffy
Share that might buy it, have

had the opportunity to have it
for free.

By realizing that you don't need
to be the only person there.

You say you can do 20 more
events at the same cost.

Absolutely.
We probably took a couple of

years to notice that and you
know, I think that's probably

our learnings along the way.
There's always been you don't

need to do everything yourself,
and you don't need to be the

biggest and the best.
Absolutely join forces.

Absolutely not.
Not even mention.

I mean the amplification that
you get from the others and you

know the the the fact that I may
be a gin drinker of one of the

gin brands that is sitting next
to that Pichai and then all of a

sudden it said no, if these
brands are sitting together at

these events, if I want to drink
rum, I will go for this rum

brands because you know it's
probably speaking the same

language as this gin brand that
I enjoy.

So you know there's so much
economies of scale that you can

bring for going back then to the
to the portfolio game of a

distributor as well-being with
the distributor that sells

already some brands that share
similar mindsets than your

brand.
You know, then all of a sudden

it becomes like, actually, OK,
we can, we can plug this brand

in, in XYZ outlets because, you
know, they're actually speaking

the same language and you know,
bartenders would love it and and

so their consumers.
That thing that you've you

talked to on many of a podcast
about not targeting a person or

a consumer, but targeting an
occasion, just it, you know, it

stems from that thing that there
isn't really such thing as an

Aperol drinker or a rum drink or
a gin drinker.

The occasion sets the moment for
whether you're drinking gin

tonic or a rum Coke or a or a
daiquiri or a beer.

And I'm all those things, and I
think most people are most of

those things.
Recognizing that you're not

going to get the entire sort of
share of sprotism in an

expression I hate, but you're
not going to get the whole

thing.
No, fantastic.

So thanks, thanks a lot for your
time Jack.

This was super helpful and I'm
sure it would be you know listen

over and over again and people
will take notes of your

experience and your work.
So tell us, how can people find

you and and and up your share?
Well, I know you're very active

on LinkedIn, but I'd you know,
if anyone wants to join the

Kindred Spirits group, if you're
independent drinks owner, please

get in touch on on LinkedIn.
I'll add you to our group.

It's something you're really
proud of.

It's gonna amazing atmosphere on
that group and very, very pro

sharing for either a very small
or scaled up brands.

Welcome everyone to that group.
So get in touch with me, Jackal

Ewing on LinkedIn or follow at
the Duffy share on on Instagram

and see what we're up to now
that you've seen Behind the Cars

and you'll see exactly what's
what's going on.

Fantastic.
Thank you.

Thank you so much, Jake.
Thanks for your time.

Chris, lovely.
Very well.

Thank you so much.
Really appreciate your time and

looking forward to carrying on
the conversation online.

All the best.
Absolutely.

Thank you.
Bye.

That's all for today.
Remember that this is a two-part

episode, 46 and 47.
If you enjoyed it, please rate

it, comment and share it with
friends, and come back next week

for more insights about building
brands from the bottom up.