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The Real Estate Addicts (REA) podcast is a must-listen for anyone interested in real estate development, investment, construction and entrepreneurship. Each episode dives into a wide range of industry topics and features conversations with savvy, successful entrepreneurs who candidly share their career paths, challenges, breakthroughs, and the stories behind the remarkable companies they’ve built. Expect big personalities, thoughtful insights, and conversations that both educate and inspire.
Co-hosted by Ray Hurteau, Dan Rubin (Instagram: @rhinvestgroup), and Marc Savatsky (Instagram: @choose_boston)
Follow the Real Estate Addicts Podcast on YouTube: @RealEstateAddicts
00:10
last time I always say canistero. Canistero. Canistero. know, like JC canistero is a sub that I worked with for a long time and now you're in my head, you're Talia canistero. It's not, it's was going to be with Kool-Aid man. I don't how it's spelled phonetically. Mine? Yeah, canistero is not. No, there's no, you have extra letters in Welcome to the Real Estate Addicts podcast. We're here with Talia canistero. Canistero. Canistero. It's okay, Mark.
00:38
We've been friends for a really long time. was bad. Just got nervous there. Anyway, we have Ray Hurteau and Dan Rubin from RH Investment Group. And Marc Savatsky. The Union. Talia from the union. Yes, also a union resident. Yeah, Talia Cannistra. Some people can't. What's your company? My firm is Studio Can. Perfect. We're a boutique architecture firm here in the city. And a founding member at the union.
01:08
Yes. Excellent. Very exciting. was just opened. Yeah, we're office mates. Congrats. So co-working space for real estate professionals in South Boston. um Yeah, so this is day two. Grand opening was yesterday. the dollars of the week. Oh, Oh, Italians. It's been really nice, actually. I was there for the majority of the week, and people were in and out, flowing, saying hi. It was really nice. Very activated. Yeah. That's great. So we're hoping for that energy long term.
01:35
That's definitely we actually have our first hire to we brought on board. Um, Sean, and he's in charge of multiple things, but one of them is like programming the space. So I've connected with like a lot of vendors, super smart consultants. Um, you know, people that I refer to a lot when I run into roadblocks and sort of schedule trainings with them and come up with PowerPoints in different formats. Uh, and yeah, our events calendar is filling up. Very great. Yeah. It's awesome.
02:02
Talia, do you have any employees or are you on your own 100 %? I do. I have four employees and they've been with me for anywhere between five to a year and a half, five years to a year and a half. So it's been really nice. We have some continuity there. Are they all local or are remote? They're remote. I have one in Alston, one in Beverly, one in Maine. Remote-ish though. They're not all same. New England. Perfect. New England. Yeah.
02:32
It's been good and I've known most of them through referrals or just working with them or being around them. So it's been really nice because we have that connection of like friendship too. That's nice. That is nice. How long did you guys get together? We used to get together once a week on Mondays. We would be in the office now with the union. I'm gonna figure out that flow a little bit, but we're in contact constantly on teams. mean, it never stops, which is good and bad, right? Yeah.
03:01
But yeah, I'm pretty much involved in everything going on in the firm. So whatever they're working on, I'm fully aware of what it is and I think you can count on me for questions or client management. That's awesome. Yeah, that's good. All right. And I'll do one more interview style question just to get everybody to know you. Sure. And for my own benefit. So who are your typical clients? Do you have like a developer and sort of we'll call them retail or homeowner split or is it just one or the other bucket?
03:31
It's honestly a pretty even split between property or homeowners and developers. I do everything from single family all the way up to hundreds of units of multi-family. do commercial spaces, educational. We have a bunch of Goddard schools, cannabis dispensaries. So we're all over, we're all over the range of architectural projects. That's cool. Do you like work in discounts into your fee structure?
03:55
Only with you. meant for product retail establishments. I can't, this is a hot button one. Where are we on that? Like, are we having it? Are we not having it? Is getting descheduled? There's something happening. Yeah. They want to it on the ballot for November, don't they? Isn't there a ballot? I don't see how you can take it away. Billions of dollars of revenue. It's little That's on the table. It's insane.
04:18
That's crazy. It definitely slowed down a lot faster than people are anticipating, I think. Everyone was investing in cannabis and then all of a sudden things just halted and I don't know exactly why. I feel like it has to do with funding. But um I think that people are anticipating it to be more like liquor stores. Like if you're going to have every one, every few blocks, people were thinking cannabis could have the same market. But I don't think that the...
04:43
people were as receptive, which was a very interesting thing. Similar to everyone investing in multifamily in Massachusetts. Yeah, a little bit of like a gold rush, a tulip craze. Now everyone's waiting, everyone's also waiting for what happens in November with rent control and stuff before they figure out what's gonna happen. Yeah. I went to bachelor party in Miami and I procured some gummies for the team and I bought THCP gummies.
05:10
Don't be very beautiful. What's the P? The P, it basically is 100 times the potency of like what you would otherwise take. I thought I killed everyone on my, like all my best friends. Including yourself. Yeah. yeah. I woke up the next day. was like, I wake up at like 5.36. It was 12.30 in the afternoon and I could hardly move my muscles. All right. Well, there's a good PSA folks.
05:35
So we had like a yacht reserved that day and my buddy Diego was just like, we're on the water. Like, dude, come swimming. He's like, I'll just drown. I don't think that I can physically like move. That was the next thing. Oh my God. Well, let's roll back to design and things like that. Let's get back into our comfort What's your ideal size building?
05:59
I would love mid-range multi. I think anywhere from six to 40 units is a really great place to be right now, especially with infill projects and everything. um And I think the big firms really want 200 plus and the small firms are more in the three unit and down. So I'm right in that mid-range where I can do the big stuff, but efficiently. That's very cool. Thank you. Well, I agree. That's kind of where we like to...
06:26
play as well, right? We feel similar. A lot of the big development shops want 150 units or more, but then smaller guys can't really handle six or more. So there's kind of that sweet spot, like the 12 to 50 is a much smaller pool. Let's talk adaptive reuse versus new construction. Do you feel your preferences? You like them all, but...
06:55
uh New constructions always prefer just for simplicity's sake. renovations ultimately have surprises and surprises are never received well, no matter how good communication is or how good your team is. um So new construction is great, but we are capable of renovations. We do a ton of them and we just have to be really in tune and connected with our contractor at the.
07:22
early stages so can do selective demo, we can figure out what's actually in there and try to eliminate some of those surprises. I think it's the hardest part with adaptive reuse. We're doing it right now and it took a lot longer to get our permitting and drawings finalized because we started doing demo and then we would uncover things and then we would do more demo and then we would uncover more things and we chose to do some demo so we could try to minimize those surprises. Yeah, but then it's just like,
07:49
getting structural back on site and getting architectural back on site and figuring out what we need to do with the beam that was cut 100 years ago, but now it's exposed. So we have to figure it out because it's on us now. so things like that, think adaptive reuse, it's fun, but it's definitely challenging and time consuming sometimes. Yeah. friend doing a office to Rezzi project.
08:15
And all the masonry on the veneer has no seismic clips. It's sort of like freestanding in a sense. So, you know, that's $200,000 just clipping all the bricks back to the structure. Oh, God. Or is it just floating? You know, in so many words. But the nice thing about adaptive reuse is that existing to remain. you get, if you're not in compliance as relates to zoning, or if you don't have an elevator and you don't meet handicap accessibility codes, like a lot of that stuff.
08:46
feel bad saying that. Well, no, it's grandfathering. Well, understand what you're saying. think there's certain things depending on the level of renovation where you would. it depends. depends. But I hear what you're saying. I think that it also helps from just a density perspective because sometimes you can bypass zoning. Nice to have existing utilities. you keeping your gas? Yeah, yeah, we got to bring in a new fire line because we...
09:14
be going to do a sprinkler system, but other than that, all the utilities are remaining. That is a good part, not having to deal with all those Well, don't have to do any site work. There's no site work involved, so you can keep the existing foundation. And we're keeping the shell, so the framing, the footprint. So there's a lot of cost savings in an adaptive reuse as well, especially today where... And those are the projects that are kind of penciling the most right now that we're seeing.
09:41
Obviously, there's going to be players that can work in any project, but let's dig into the adaptive reuse. You have an architect, you have the owner, you might have a GC. How do you balance your opinion? How do you get things that you feel are most important into the project when the owner may be saying, oh, well, that's not in the budget or the architect may be saying, well, that's not the style we're going for. I don't know how often this happens. Maybe everybody plays nice in the sandbox, but tell us more about that.
10:09
Um, usually if it's a developer, we're just basing design off of metrics to start. So we want to make sure that we can hit their numbers and then we layer on style from there. And I think that that helps with the conversation because it's opening with we're getting you everything that you want. We would love to be able to do this style if it's within what you guys like and also what we think is pertinent for this property. Um, but
10:36
let's talk about how to do things, you know, maybe in a more cost effective way, but still achieving the same goal. it's definitely a balancing act and I've been working with developers for 14 years. So I definitely know where they're coming from and try to kind of meet them where they're at. See, I think that's something that a lot of architects are the complete, do the complete opposite. Most architects immediately go for the like award winning.
11:02
incredible design and then... Ignore the programming, the unit count, the gross script footage, my bedroom, bathroom counts that I not just that, just ignore the location, ignore the budget, everything. then they'll just give it to a developer and the developer will then bid it out and the developer will like shit their pants when they see the pricing. And then they'll go back and they'll be like, we can't afford this. then the architect... They're starting to change orders. Well, then the architect... You're not even all of the gate. Then you start getting...
11:32
Like then the architect starts getting upset and then you're like ruining. So I think your approach is, from a developer standpoint, your approach is a breath of fresh air. developers are always numbers based. And obviously we wanna do the right thing and build a nice product, but we gotta fit within the constraints of the specific project itself. Absolutely, and I think that's where good architects are the most valuable because
12:01
we can balance those things. Like I'm always thinking of, I'm not gonna jog this wall in this particular place because then there's the structural system's gonna be insane and I don't wanna have to VE my countertops because this beam exists. So I'm trying to think of ways to balance all of these different elements to really get the end goal that we all want. And by all means, it's not perfect every time. I'm not like completely knowledgeable at everything.
12:27
But at least there's intention and thoughtfulness there. And that's what I really try to bring to the table. That's awesome. We just had an episode on negotiation and I don't think we even touched on this at all. Like design negotiation, you know, going back and forth and just this balance. kind of making that observation that that's in itself a negotiation. Doing a little callback. Yes. I don't get it.
12:56
Everybody's favorite topic in 2026, artificial intelligence. Oh, great. Tell us if you're a firm. Yeah. Are you, or is your firm adopting any cool AI stuff? Do you think it's overrated, underrated or appropriately rated? I think it is both over and underrated. think that certain
13:17
People are thinking AI is gonna take over the world in the short term. I don't agree with that at all. I think that there's certain things that it's crazy valuable for, like streamlining all of your operations, maybe some of your bookkeeping, maybe some of your SOPs. But in terms of creating architectural designs or documentation, it's just a failure. Pretty walky. Yeah, it's terrible. They bring you- It'll do it.
13:46
a toilet in the middle of the kitchen and it doesn't see anything wrong with that. And it's just crazy. Like that's an extreme example, but that would be interesting though. I mean, if you cook a lot, what if you cook a lot and you're just always in the kitchen and you have stomach, like GI problems. I it is efficient. I actually used it recently. want to go to the toilet thing a bit more. There was a house we saw for sale here. I think it was in JP a few years ago.
14:13
and it had the open concept bathroom. was literally just a toilet that was in its own space. Do you think there's ever a world where that makes sense? No, but- its own space? What That was a house for sale? It was like a condo or something for sale. I've seen funny like master, primary bath suites without Maybe it had like a piece of glass or something. Oh yeah. But it was like, no door. There was no door to that? was a glass, I think, maybe. Was it electrified or what? And-
14:39
like a bedroom or living in some other space. don't care how much I love my spouse. I'm not going to watch that happen. I was like, what were they trying to V on that one? Different people are into different things, right? Yeah. That's true. I did buy a house. Don't yuck my YUM. I was going to say I was recently using AI to do a rendering for the project we're doing up in Amesbury because the planning department had questions about windows and stuff like that. It did a really good job.
15:09
I'll take the other side because I used uh for the union, was trying to render it with all the various AI software and I thought that they were all average at best and none of them were exciting enough for me to put on the website. Yeah, I could see it. You have to know how to feed. Correct. it to really give you what you want back. And it's hard on renderings because. do you do? Do you mark up the actual photo and like circle it and.
15:36
feed it back or do you like? No. Talk to I've also noticed that you have to do it like slowly. You can't like give it like a paragraph of like 10 things you want it to do or it's a little completely fucking up. You have to do like one or two things at a time. Don't mansplain to me. Talia was talking. I'm sorry. Sorry. Just kidding. No, I think I actually just build the model.
16:03
as detailed as possible and then just say, make this photo realistic to cut out a lot of the back and forth and it does it really well. Really? Yeah. But that's because I have that capability, right? If other people, if you're not building in 3D and you're just sending them something, I think that if you say the wall behind the hard hats, I'm talking about the union now, the wall behind the hard hats, make it this color and actually show them this color, put people in it,
16:32
having a conversation, like you have to be so hyper-specific as if you're talking to somebody who doesn't understand the English language and you're trying to like translate a little bit. And it's just like giving them the least amount of guesswork. And are you polite to the AI bots or like Dan Tursons? don't think they like him. say please and thank you. I do. You do? I do. Wow. I don't know, it's just kind of second That's why it doesn't be a job for you. I don't know.
17:01
Markets, like, could you, no, it could just be conditioned to write an email, like I've done that too, you know? Like, please do this, but then I delete it. I'm just like, I'm not giving it my manners. I've stopped saying just thank you all sec. Like, if I'm done with the conversation, I just leave. don't have to, I don't say goodbye anymore. It's like talking to customer service on chat. Like, is there anything else I can help you with? Like, dude, stop. Like, I don't want any more prompts. Oh, if you.
17:26
If you want me to continue, could do one of these five things. They always suggest five things. pick something I do too. then also, also scroll on Instagram for hours. none of this is, well, I saw a cool video. was like a little robot delivering Amazon stuff and it gets to the crosswalk and some guy was standing there and it asks like, can you please press the pedestrian cross button for me? And he starts like going off on the robot. He's like, no, you're taking somebody's job. You know,
17:54
F you all I've seen are like those things getting kicked out for the robot. know it is sad. Yeah. Oh, man. It felt like a puppy. was like, yeah, why'd you, why were you mean? We're definitely starting to get into the matrix. This is how it starts. All right. Or terminator or tell tell us about some cool products that you've been using. Um, maybe your, your Brooklyn project, my Brooklyn, very cool build condos, stack and co GC port.
18:24
Studio can architecture. Tell us about that. What's what's like some neat stuff that's going into it? So it's brick on the front and partial on the sides. Then we have hardy siding in the rear um and metal paneling kind of in the window bays. But we very, very basic material palette. But what we tried to do there, again, kind of going back to what we're talking about is a unique brick detail.
18:52
that created interest without creating added cost, which was really nice. So we had this corbling where it steps back, but it's modernized because it's asymmetrical. It's only on the side and the top. And then we have the metal panel at the top and in the windows and it just gives it like a really clean, refined look. So we're doing cool things there. um We have porcelain tile inside. We have um all granite countertops, uh the Delano cabinets and kitchens. it's just, it's a really, really nice.
19:22
product. You know, I think it's a cool VE hack. um so porcelain tiles beautiful. Uh, but they'll ceramic tiles, less expensive. They'll make ceramic tiles and they sort of print on the front to make it look like terrazzo or whatever. As long as you don't say terrazzo, know, on the, the market and stuff. Yeah. You could probably do some terrazzo. Yes. It's always inspired. I like that. Are you doing full?
19:51
interior design as well or is it? We do on some projects, not most. It's that one we did, our multi-family products we usually do, but for single family it's just a whole different animal. So we usually recommend the homeowners to go with an interior design person. That makes sense. That's cool. What are some, I guess, hot products or hot design trends that you're seeing this year?
20:18
I'm seeing getting people are getting away from the grays, you know, the millennial gray. So people are wanting warmth and texture right now. I think we want to go back to cozy. We want to go back to somewhat of traditional without being old. um So wall coverings are happening, uh actual saturated colors on walls and color drenching in the rooms, which is really nice.
20:42
ceilings, right? Yeah, for a long time people forgot ceilings existed, but you can do very cool things if you acknowledge the ceiling. that's awesome. lot of wall coverings. Let say, is a wall covering like wallpaper or are you seeing more on like millwork side of things or maybe a little bit of both? I'm talking about like a textured wallpaper or there's a fabric sometimes that you can lay on the wall. Lots of millwork. People are loving.
21:09
little nooks being filled in with like wet bars and dry bars in residential, like built-ins and stuff. Yeah. Built-ins. Yep. Kind of utilizing every square foot. Definitely. I'll tell you, unlike the condo side, what I'm seeing is super critical, less to do with like interior design, more to do with programmatic is having an office. So like two bed, two bath, great. Two bed, two bath with an office. Excellent. Yeah. So that like bonus room, that plus ah is like such a
21:39
major need to have for lots of buyers. True. the bonus space of having a sauna in your house is huge. Really? Sauna. love saunas. Yes. Really? That's very important. Steam showers for a while. I'm sure they're still popular, but saunas are a request we're getting now. um What's the footprint on something like that?
21:58
Is it? They can be very small. They make one now that like expands out. Well, my buddy's got a PT practice and I think his is like maybe three by three. He's got like a self-standing one. Is that too small? It feels a little claustrophobic. It's like a stall. I did my first cold plunge this past weekend. Oh really? Like three minutes proper cold plunge. You got, should you ease into it? I was at a nice hotel. Yeah. And I know did not ease into it. I just got. You just jumped.
22:26
Yeah. don't want to eat. don't know. like the breathing side of it. Like you can really shock your heart. friend was in there first and I like got in and fought and he was kind of coach was like, breathe, just all you can do right now. And then you kind of get numb and then, and then we went into the sauna. but did it help with clarity?
22:45
Like that's what I say. Yeah. It's like a clarified thing. really helps you during the day. Yeah. T H C P and gummies. CHCP. That was my job that day. Um, no, I really did feel great afterwards. I don't, I don't know what the science is or if there's any, but, um, I loved it. hear it all the time. did ask Brendan ball for pricing on at home cold plunges.
23:09
Cause like, you you could just fill an ice bath, but that's going to get really gross. So they make ones that you can put outside that like filter the water and all the things. Oh, they, yeah. pricing wise, think the least expensive he gave me was like 6,500, but the most expensive was 22. Whoa. That feels excessive. Yeah. So I didn't, I didn't buy them. But you have to plumb it or pipe it. How does it work? Yeah. You plumb to it for sure. But is it all year round? Yeah. And it's, it's like freezing the water.
23:37
Oh, keeps it cold? I say you plumb to it with a lot of confidence, but I'm not really sure now that you say it. Maybe you just fill it and then it's like, has like an internal filtration system. I see. Cause you don't plumb to a hot tub. You just fill it and then it... And it circulates. You fill chlorine every once in a while. Anyway, let's go back to the studio. You could plumb to a built-in hot tub. Not a freestanding hot tub, but if you do a built-in Oh, like with the pool. Correct. Those are filtered. All right. Well, I'll think about it. So, Sausage, hot
24:06
In theory design for, no, hospitality is what I want to ask you about. The reason being is because I really want to build a boutique hotel. I would love to do that with for any business reason, just personal ego. Yep, let's do it. Stops. Like an entire hotel. Stressed out like an Airbnb sweet house kind of thing. Everything's super cool. Yeah, absolutely. Small rooms, but really cool. What do you need to know? Do you do any of that? I am happy to. All right, good answer. Where? A location. North Adams.
24:36
Like that neck in the woods. So Berkshires. Yeah. Isn't that where that museum, Moka? Don't talk to Willie. Yeah, Moka, Masta. You and Willie can't bar. I know. You and Willie should. I Well, that's where it came from. Willie got me. I've been looking at, let's go back to, I keep saying this. Going back. Hospitality. Hospitality. in your former life, did you do any hospitality work? Like hotel stuff is like. No, but I am trying to get into it. I have a contact right now that I've been speaking to. So hopefully.
25:04
that can get started and if it starts with you, that's even better. Awesome. Do you do any warehouse industrial? I have done industrial. Yeah. There was one up in New Hampshire that we did. um Data centers. Data centers. I've never looked at any motel conversions. yeah. No, I haven't. Cause that's something that we've kind We've tried looking at a couple. We've looked at a couple old, like old motels. Yeah, like a Howard Johnson. No, no, no, like a mom and pop motel in like Southern Maine.
25:31
and they're looking to sell it, then converting it to. Can you it to like apartments? Yeah. Interesting. you wouldn't do condos or something like that. I want to shift gears to business of architecture and really for all of us, but we were having a chat the other day about how difficult it is to book work when you're upped your eyeballs in existing work and backlog, but you really have to stay disciplined, right? Like, is there a business development or a sales approach that you've found help for? is it just a frustrating thing that.
26:00
You struggle with what? I definitely struggle with it if I'm being totally honest with you. um It's something that you have to really shift your mind into and it's a full-time job. Like if you're not thinking about meeting new people, having conversations, making phone calls, going to events, then you're ultimately going to be behind pretty soon. I think my strategy is just go to as many events that I know of, talk to as many people as I can and just constantly be in contact with
26:29
my clients to potentially say, you know, if there's anyone you know, please just let them know that I'm available for their projects and things like that. Yeah. Every day you're working yourself out of a job in our business. No matter if you're a contractor, developer, or architect. You got to keep feeding the beast. What about like internal finances, bookkeeping, all that fun stuff? How do you find that within your business? Do you do it yourself? Oh, I love Have someone?
26:57
um I do all invoicing and monthly tracking, ARAP and um projections myself. I do have a part-time bookkeeper that helps just close the books every month and make sure that we're okay. Then I have an operations uh manager who is helpful with taxes and insurance and all of those things that you need to.
27:23
have a legal business. So I definitely do have help, but I'm very much in it. And I'm in QuickBooks every single day. It's a lot. it is. I'm glad Bray does it. She sends me like a list of questions at the end of the quarter, and it's my least favorite email to get. Like, I think I'd rather get like a bad warranty email than like this list. just like, I don't know what I spent 1200 bucks on in September. Like, it was on my credit card. Figure it out.
27:50
I know you have to go through all your transactions, make sure you categorize them correctly. It's a lot. We just did some K1 distribution emails and just making sure the numbers are perfect and making sure everybody's the correct attachments are going to the right people. Like it's so stressed out about that. I checked the email like seven times before I hit send. I know. And then I find like myself.
28:11
focusing so much on the message and editing it once and I gotta edit all the other ones, I don't know, there's gotta be a better way. I'm hoping AI solves That's got to, I mean, it probably already is. Someone's listening right now, but I'm like, you're an idiot, We're old. Let us know, please. DM. Ray yells at me all the time. what? what? For buying things and not categorizing them. No, you didn't send me the receipts, free-field Right, he's buying them for his house. I finally Putting them on the business. What are you expecting to do?
28:37
label it like Linda's new appliance. I finally got it. Use our Amazon business account. Yeah. Yeah. Educational. Oh man. Architects are very bad business people. think if you ask any architect, they're going to say that they struggle with it. So I think that if anybody knows anybody how to train architects, how to run businesses, I would love to know. And just come and help me. I think like
29:06
I've heard doctors, dentists, a lot of those, they're terrible with business too. Well, they don't go to school for that. mean, so how can you be good at it? Most people don't know these things. mean, we don't know. don't, we don't know these things. I think it'd be really cool with the union to do like a round table exclusively for architects. um And I think like developers do a pretty good job of kind of getting together and sharing their recipes and different like tips and tricks to watch out for. Yeah, we do a lot of that.
29:36
Yeah. like there's nothing like that. There's nothing like that in the architecture. think you know, there's like an ego problem at play, not Talia, but all the others. And I feel that's throwing farms at every architect. I think that's a real thing for the ego for which architects just not like collaborating or like leaning on each other in a way that's like there is a sense of competitiveness. was going to say, because if
30:04
There's a small pool in whatever area you're in. And if there's too many architects, then there's too many choices and there's more of a chance that you're gonna lose the job. So I think we keep each other at an arm's length just for self preservation of like, well, if we don't.
30:22
stay too close, then maybe you won't hear about a project that I'm working on or like don't touch my developers, you know? Yeah. So there's no like, there's no network architectural networking groups. I like the BSA, Boston Society of Architects. There's the AIA, American Institute of Architects. So there's definitely some things where those uh groups exist. I haven't specifically gone to any of them, but I'm sure that it's been successful so far. Yeah. But like, if you get a site number,
30:52
three site numbers in the city of Boston, they're all shockingly, probably not surprisingly, very close together. If I get three different architecture numbers, they're all over the place. There's like almost no rhyme or reason sometimes. you know, without, I think the former example, I think that they're all talking to each other frequently, even to the point of perhaps taking turns, which I'm not condoning, but.
31:16
Um, think you guys, that's the far end of the spectrum of like too close together. think architects from the far, far end on the other side. So there's probably somewhere. There's like different ways that we know or approach in writing a proposal to some architects are just percentage based. I'm going to charge you five to 10 % of whatever the construction cost is. And that's our fee. Some people are based on time. So if I'm assuming it's going to take me.
31:44
24 hours to 40 hours to do this, then we have a rate that's a multiplier. Some people just do it on range of size. If it's a 20 unit building, I'm charging you X. And if it's a 40 unit building, I'm charging you Y. So there's so many different ways and there's also so many different um costs associated with running each company that we all are just kind of doing it against whatever works for our company at the time. And not really thinking about like, oh well.
32:13
This guy. Overheavies huge. Because if I have four employees, plus hopefully paying myself every once in a while, then I might cost a little bit more than a one-man shop, which is fine, depending on the project or whatever the case is. But it's challenging sometimes because we obviously want to work on the project if we're writing the proposal. it's hard to navigate sometimes.
32:40
It's like what you were talking about in the last, one of the last episodes about getting up in the, you know, the cost of doing business, know, people have vehicles and insurance and overhead and all that stuff. it's things get expensive very quickly and you got to pay for your overhead. So. uh Yeah. I find, I find I've never priced it, but I would imagine is very difficult to figure out, you know, the demands on your time.
33:08
are so correlated as an architect doing CA to how cohesive the team is and experienced and you know, get some superintendent, doesn't know what they're doing, who hires a bad sub and they're calling you every 10 minutes to basically read your own drawing. Well, that's RFI. CA would be more like going on site. If they screw stuff up and you're like, now I got to point out 17 different things. Very confident, but very wrong. That's CA. Yeah. It's all of it. That's called CA. Confident, wrong.
33:36
It was okay. I'm often comfortable. Hold on, no, because like CD sets. RFIs, submittals, onsite. Submittals, yeah. That's all under the umbrella. Oh, okay. Yeah, it's really, really is different. CA is just when they come on site. No. No? No, it's the submittal part for sure. I saw the RFI was during design though and like after the CD set. This shows your informal training in some of this stuff. I was never trained. never even...
34:01
It's okay. So CA encompasses submittals and all that. If you have an architect and you don't pay for CA and like you're framing the stairs and the rise runs are working because something doesn't count. Yeah. Like I don't know that they have to answer your email. I mean they should. Well, if we have a construction control affidavit, we do. Yeah. But now we would charge hourly or something. it's, yeah, it's all of it. It's question, any, as soon as construction starts.
34:30
Any affiliation that we have with it is under the CA umbrella. Right. I apologize. I more like you work with somebody that knows what they're doing so you know that the on-site stuff will be less than... Oh, all the stuff. Than, you know, like Joe Schmoe never done a building before and you're like, okay, you're missing half the things we put on the diagram or on the drawing, excuse me. Yeah, or you price it to someone and they sell the plans to somebody else. That's great point.
34:57
How do you handle something like that? So they get it permitted, approved, then they sell it. Like, does the buyer come on and do you stay with them or? Can you say I'm not dealing with this anymore? Because like you have the professional liability insurance and coverage, yeah. It has to be, there's two different ways that I would personally approach that. And I don't, think every architect would probably handle it differently, right? Some would be, it would be a requirement.
35:23
that they would have to follow the new owner through construction because it's their liability and their stamp. Some people might say, you know what, it's okay if you want to use a different architect for CA, just give us a liability release and anything that's within the drawings or anything that gets built, we're completely washing our hands of that. I think those are the two instances that I would do depending on what the relationship is. It would also depend who the buyer is because
35:52
I want to trust the people I work with. want to feel comfortable in that relationship. So I think it would be a case by case basis. That's, think there's an option C and I'm glad you didn't throw it out there, but it's, could say pound sand. These are my drawings. I own the intellectual property. You bought, you know, my services, but this is, these belong to me. You can pay me to transfer them over or otherwise.
36:20
start again and design something that's substantially different. And it's not that different from like a musical group that sues, you know, another band that says that opening hook sounds a lot like my opening hook. So you better like actually change the plans. so now, as a developer, you're talking about a full CD set or a permit set that needs to be developed into a CD set either either either. think what you're
36:46
May I? I'm sorry to interrupt you. No, no, no. I'm not interrupting you. What you're saying makes sense to me if they were to use the building, not for the lot it was intended. So if you were to say, I have a 40 unit building that I really love this design, I'm going to sell it so that somebody could buy, build it somewhere else, then that should be purchased from me because it was my intellectual property and my design. But if they're just building it for where it's meant to be.
37:15
I see that as a difference in my mind because it's like, designed this for this property. If the owner wants to get out of it, then who's to say that the new owner can't just build it? I could be totally wrong. I've been involved in this where we, stipulate this upfront. So in design contracts that are meaningful size, I will have a clause that spells out if I should get hit by a bus and my wife needs to sell these plans or I just elect to sell the plans, what happens?
37:45
I get to take them with me at this cost at no cost at whatever. Um, because otherwise I think you are very vulnerable that your architect's going to just, uh, behave nicely in some way. But you know, I also see their point too. have you had any direct experiences like in that world? we had to get lawyers involved in all the things. And we settled it. We paid a sum. But after you've already paid for the plans, it's not. Yeah.
38:13
A typical AIA contract would stipulate that you don't own the instrument of service. That's a wash. I don't even know if that is. So that's a very interesting business decision, I'd say. And then I guess the other question is like, you know, if you could, if you, if you.
38:30
sort of given a discount on the design, knowing that you're gonna make up for it on the CA side potentially. never happens. Okay. CA So you answered that question. CA is always a loss of money. I don't care who the architect is. Oh my gosh. There's so much more time and work that goes into CA than most people are willing to pay for. I won't speak for you guys, but Well, no, mean, our first big project, I was...
38:59
I was like very green with the submittal process. was like, what do you need submittals for? It's like everything. Yeah, literally every single thing. And so what I've actually done to try to mitigate that is instead of saying, here's a lump sum CA fee that's for the duration of 20 months of construction, because it's a huge number that people get scared of, I just say, this is my monthly fee for CA for the duration of construction so that it's more kind of digestible and it doesn't feel as.
39:28
Is it a fixed fee typically? Typically, because most developers that I've worked with would rather have the controlled cost versus variable because if I'm billing hourly, it could be full time. It could be 40 hours for four weeks. And that's much higher than if I were to give a lump sum on an average for the course of the project. So it would be, let's say for easy math, $10,000 a month for
39:58
20 months versus 40,000 in one month, but 2,000 in the next month, depending on the demand on our time. How do you as a business owner manage that discrepancy with like, you've got to pay your employees, but you're only bringing in a fixed amount? It's tough. Okay. It is tough. And it's definitely a choice that the business owner has to make, how they want to handle that. ah But generally, from what I've seen in my past and my experiences,
40:28
that the just averaging it out is the easiest and best way for everybody. In my world where I'll do some development consulting and I charge on a monthly basis, some months I win, some months I lose, especially like early in the project when everybody's gelling, I sort of feel like I'm getting buried. But then there might be six months where I'm like, Oh, that wasn't so bad. I think I came out a little bit ahead there. Yeah. Would you prefer it to be kind of the fixed thing or variable? Yeah, fixed. Yeah. Yeah. I, I won't do hourly stuff anymore either.
40:57
Oh, you won't? No. It's a tangent, I just feel like some, I say this humbly, but like, feel like I can pick up the phone and save somebody 50 grand sometimes. And it's a 12 minute call. It's like, how do I bill for that? Yeah. Hmm. That's true. Percentage of cost savings. That really is tough too, because similar to us, like I've worked for 14 years, so I can do things very quickly. Yeah. Because I've worked on it and honed.
41:24
my skills. So if I'm charging hourly, then I'm losing, you know? There's that plumber conversation we had. It's all tying back, buddy. Time is... We were talking about this the other day too, just like how difficult it is to choose where to spend your time. It's like once you go to an opportunity, you know, you're closing off other ones. And like, especially when we have constraints of the size of our firms and... And you can't control when other deals may come on. And it's almost like feast or famine, right?
41:53
Do you see that with opportunities for bidding and things like that? Do you see what we see where it's like market cycles and- For sure. It's like you'll be slammed and then you'll have no work. Exactly. It's completely dependent on what's going on in the economy and how you guys are penciling your deals and meeting developers and even homeowners. If somebody wants to invest more money into their home or if they just want to move. So there's different.
42:22
variables for sure. Architects are the canary in the coal mine when it comes to the construction economy. You know what I mean? Like they feel the slowdown before we do. It's like construction volume is a lagging indicator. Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah. All those jobs that, that wrapped up like a year or two or even three after all the interest rates went crazy. Architects, lenders, they're the first ones to see. Yeah.
42:50
slow down. you can kind of read your future. Yeah, for sure. Thanks for taking the bullet for us sometimes. oh Do you get up, do you get upset when a project doesn't get built? It depends on the project, but yes, it would, I would love to see more of our projects get built. That's frustrating. Yeah. I imagine that's like a carpenter who builds something and then we're like, can you actually change that? And then they like have to take the saws all out and like,
43:19
Rebuild what they already built and you're like, it's just a spiriting. Yeah, I assume. Oh, for sure. Because we, we put so much into emotion into this, right? It's we spend weeks and weeks and months on and then it just drops and we never get to see it or walk through it. And I can imagine that from the developer, the owner's perspective, it's at the same way. Cause you're spending money on the documentation and not seeing it to fruition. Yeah. So you want to play overrated, underrated or appropriately rated.
43:48
Sure. Okay, we'll do a quick round. uh I'll kick it off and I'm going to say Hardy panel, not Hardy plank, four by eight cementitious sheets of Hardy panel as a facade material overrated underrated, appropriated. I know what your answer is. um Appropriately rated. I think it needs to be in the right place and detailed correctly. um Skip. Skip. Too slow. All right, I will do...
44:18
Traditional double hung windows.
44:22
Um, overrated. Okay. Puzzles. Appropriately. I love puzzles. Underrated. Underrated. you. Okay. like puzzle puzzles. Yeah. Tali does a lot of puzzles. do. Okay. Puzzle rooms. was my test if you understood the game. You're back. I'm back. Ray, you got to go. Uh, LVP? Oh. Oh, it's fine. Appropriate, I guess. Okay. Um, the union.
44:52
Underrated. oh is the union underrated? Because it is the, is the hotspot, the place to be if you want to be with the cool kids in real estate. That's right. We've got a roof decks. And a fire pit. decks are great. I think people love them and for good reason. So underrated. So appropriate. Appropriately rated. People love them. Julia, balconies? Overrated.
45:21
Hmm. I agree. French doors.
45:27
How about sliding doors? Yeah, I was gonna go there too. Sliding glass doors or like closet doors? Sliding glass doors are kind of polarizing, I think. They're fine. Really? think they're overrated. This is funny, I think they're underrated. Really? Well, well, well. Because everybody wants to go to patio doors and one, they're way more expensive, two, in like our urban tight environments, like you're gonna lose a couch or some sort of furniture being there, or it's gonna swing out. a boardian.
45:56
accordion sliding doors. Yeah, super expensive and impossible to install and tons of callbacks. yeah. Sliders are good. Yes. See, minds. well, you got a book recommendation for us or any other podcast, even a TV show that you've been watching that you like? Oh, put me on the spot. I should give you a pretty broad range. Well, I don't listen to podcasts other than this one. There you go. Thank you. Book, I'm going to read,
46:26
I'm gonna read The Alchemist soon, so can I just say I'll let you know? TV? TV, oh, Your Friends and Neighbors on Apple TV. What? The studio? Studio's good. Friends and Neighbors, I'm waiting, season two's coming up soon, I think. I think on Saturday. Oh really? Yeah. It's a great show. We'll watch it. You watched the studio? No, I watched it, I got the word and I stopped at like halfway should watch Friends and Neighbors, did you watch it? um
46:54
It's with Jon Hamm and he loses everything in his life. And then it's about him reacting to that in a very amazing way. He starts stealing rich people's shit. Oh, I did. I did see that, yeah. It's just fun. And then he gets into a lot of trouble and stuff and it's just, um it's a good watch. right. Well, with that, thank you everyone for rating, listening, subscribing. If folks want to find Studio Can, what's the best way to follow you guys?
47:18
We're on Instagram, Studio Can, um and we have a website, but honestly, Instagram's the best. Yeah, or go to the union boss where you can see all of our members. Take care, guys. Thank you. Thank you again. Peace. for having me.