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You’re tired.
Not just physically; though yeah, that too.
You’re tired in your bones. In your soul.
Trying to be a steady husband, an intentional dad, a man of God… but deep down, you feel like you’re falling short. Like you’re carrying more than you know how to hold.
Dad Tired is a podcast for men who are ready to stop pretending and start healing.
Not with self-help tips or religious platitudes, but by anchoring their lives in something (and Someone) stronger.
Hosted by Jerrad Lopes, a husband, dad of four, and fellow struggler, this show is a weekly invitation to find rest for your soul, clarity for your calling, and the courage to lead your family well.
Through honest stories, biblical truth, and deep conversations you’ll be reminded:
You’re not alone. You’re not too far gone. And the man you want to be is only found in Jesus.
This isn’t about trying harder.
It’s about coming home.
Alright guys, welcome back to the Dead Tired podcast. I'm so excited to have Peter Estop co with us, the founder and publisher of The Kinsman Journal, and he's gonna kinda talk us through what they're up to. You've got some new things inside, but also just a really cool, uh, ministry and effort that we're excited for you guys to learn about.
Peter, what's up man? Hey, so glad to be here. So honored. I've been a huge fan of Dad Tired for a long, long time and, uh, it's a real privilege to be a guest on here, so thank you. Fan of Jared. I'm just the fill in chopped liver. No, no, no. Jared's incredible. Yeah. Peter, did I say your last name right? Aco. You did Bravo, my friend.
A Stop Co. That's right. Yeah, it's, it's a Polish Ukrainian name. It's not easy to say. And uh, no, you did well. Thank you. I. Yeah. Where, so where are you? Somewhere in the Midwest, right? Yeah. So we're headquartered in the Springfield, Missouri area, so Right, right in the heart of flyover country. Okay. I like to say.
Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Okay. Tell me, uh, a bit about Kinsman Journal. Um, I was like just researching and getting familiar. It wasn't super familiar with before, but yeah, dude, seems like you guys are doing some cool things, but can you fill the guys in on like journal, the idea of a magazine that, that being kind of rare these days?
Yeah. Yeah. I'll, uh. I'll tell the kind of two, three minute, uh, you know, elevator, long elevator spiel. That's, you know, a 20 plus year story, right? Um, yeah. But yeah, I mean seamlessly like, and I wrote this in the, in the journal, uh, and, but, and when we say journal, it's a collection of essays, rich photography.
It's 240 pages long. Uh, I've written two. Uh, two of the pieces in there, but it's a collection of, of a lot of different people and everything in there is timeless in nature. And so, uh, the original origin of this came back, I read a book in, uh, January of 2017 called The Revenge of Analog Real Things and Why They Matter.
And Professionally I was in Lending Banking, uh, and was until just about a year ago, uh, but was, you know, just kind of in a place where I'm like, what do I really, am I really. Do I really wanna do this? Like what, what, you know, I'm just, I was searching, uh, and so picked up this book and the Holy Spirit just used it to just ignite a sense of curiosity, uh, that I just could not shake.
And so read the book and there were two chapters specifically that just caught my attention. The revenge of print and the revenge of Paper. And they kind of played, uh, in tandem with one another. But the whole book, the premise was this idea of. These industries that were essentially supposed to die off with the, you know, proliferation and emergence of digital technology and print and paper.
And then there was vinyl records and some others. Uh, but it was just a great book. But anyways, that really was the, the very, very beginning of me thinking, okay, what, there's something here. Why am I so curious about this? And so, for the next two, two and a half years, I spent a lot of my just free time, you know, between 3, 5, 10 hours a week, just here and there, researching, learning, reading, observing what was going on with.
Media, print, media, uh, what's going on with men, with fathers, uh, specifically as a person of faith. What's happening within the church, uh, locally, nationally, uh, just kind of observing and learning all that I could in, in these, in these areas. And emerged in, uh, really the spring summer of 2019 and said, you know what, we're gonna, we're gonna publish a really premium publication, and it's gonna be for guys, and we're gonna center it on faith.
Fatherhood and work. And, uh, so that was, that was kind of it. And then in 2019, we started putting together kind of a, a budget. You know, I was in banking and so I said, okay, what's it gonna take to do this? And one of the things that I read over and over again was in the publishing world, it really had been crippled by a broken system of mass production, uh, where magazines would just be made and a portion would be sold and then they would just be recycled.
And it really was just an advertising driven model. And so it wasn't really sustainable in the sense of like, creating something that's meaningful. And so I said, well, we're gonna have to do something differently about that. And so, so when we created the budget, uh, it was, you know, a pretty lengthy budget.
You know, I wanted to compensate every writer, every photographer, everybody who was gonna touch the journal, uh, in any way, shape or form. I wanted to honor them with their time and effort into what we were trying to create. Um, with the exception of myself, I was volunteer for about seven years, but, which was totally fine.
It was my heart behind it. And, uh. Anyways, so we just kind of put this out there and then, uh, over the course of the next, uh, few months, you know, just started to share a little bit with some friends about kind of the vision that we had. And, uh, I'll tell this one miracle story, then I'll tell the accelerated.
Um, I was in, uh, a loan committee meeting in January of 2020 and, uh, in November and December of the previous year, 2019, uh, we kind of settled in on, okay, this is what it's gonna cost. Basically, you know, I was interviewing photographers and writers and people and say, Hey, what would it take to get. 45, you know, custom images and do the shoot and all this stuff.
I was just learning and learning and learning and putting it together. But the first thing we really needed to do was to hire a firm to help us with just the branding and the marketing and just articulating like, what are we really trying to say? What's our voice? What's our message? And uh, so they gave us a quote on what that would cost and it was gonna cost, uh, with a few other things that we needed, uh, to kickstart about 10 grand.
I just said, Lord, hey, this is all you. And if this is to happen, then, then, uh, I believe that you're gonna make it happen. And I'm sitting in a loan committee meeting in January of 2020, and a friend of mine, uh, and his wife, uh, dearest friends still are to this day. They text and they said, Hey Peter, you and Sarah put on our hearts this morning and we just wanna pray specifically for, you know, what you guys are doing and what do you need prayer for?
And I said, well, we're looking to hire this firm. And, and you know, that's kinda the next step. And they said, well, what do you need? And I said, well, we're gonna hire them, you know, so we want to, we want to raise the capital. They said, Peter, how much money do you need to do this? And so I told 'em, I said, well, we're gonna need $10,000.
And they said Perfect, because the Lord told us this morning that we're to give 10,000 specifically to you guys. And uh, at that moment I was like, alright, here we go. And so, uh, for the next two years. Uh, we just bootstrapped, uh, in the margins of time before and after the kids went to bed. Uh, rarely did I work on stuff on the weekends, and so it took some time to put it together, but we sourced writers and photographers from here, this region all over the country, just to tell a thoughtful story about what's happening in the lives of men.
Centered on these themes of faith, fatherhood, and work. Uh, took it to press in 2022 and uh, printed 2000 copies, gave half of them away, strategically, sold the other half. Ran out last year, started doing gatherings, filling rooms with guys that are hungry. Uh, connecting pieces within our community about the business world, the marketplace, community, government education, just creating spaces for men, uh, that looked a little bit different than what most men were used to.
Uh, really aiming to have a sense of hospitality and excellence in everything that we do. And so, uh, about a year ago really just said, you know what? I can't do all of this anymore. I. And, uh, so I decided to, we took a massive leap of faith and left the corporate world in banking, uh, to do what most bankers do.
And that's to start a nonprofit leading with a magazine publication. Uh, so I say that jokingly, only God, right? And so, uh, so yeah, since then, for the past year, year and a half, and we've done, I. Uh, 10 different gatherings. Uh, we call 'em kinsman Table, uh, is our primary offering. It's an invite only gathering of about 125 men.
Uh, we roll out lavish hospitality and, and it's just an incredible evening. We do three times a year. I. Uh, we've done a couple in some other markets, and then we do another thing called Kinsman Knights, which is a ticketed event for anybody who wants to come. We did a large summit, which is kind of a thought leader, high-end experience, and then we do kind of a monthly discipleship type of, uh, networking format called forum.
And so we're just leaning into things that candidly I want and need for myself as a man, as a father, as a husband, as a guy in his late thirties who's trying to figure some things out and, you know, is, is trying not to live from the false self, but the true self as Morgan Stein would say. And, uh, and so yeah, so that's what we're doing.
And so it's just been remarkable the way in which guys have responded, and especially the journal. The journal has just taken on a life of its own. And, uh, it's such a timeless piece. You know, we did a reprint at the beginning of this year as a hardcover coffee table book. I. And it's just, I mean, it's just a beautiful, beautiful piece of, of literature and, and imagery.
I tell guys, if you don't even like to read, you can just look at the pictures and, and they'll evoke emotion, uh, and wonder in God's creation and, and, and amen. And so, uh, so yeah, so we do that and we do the podcast and, uh, it's been, it's been amazing. So, yeah. One of the things that I was interested as I was kind of like learning a little bit about what you guys do is you really put a lot of effort in the photography being excellent and the articles am, am I right about that?
It's like you hire people, you. No stock stuff, like really went for it. So I'm an honest guy. I try to be an honest guy. There's one image, one image in the entire book that was stocked, but you're right. I, I wanted you get a freebie out that way. Yeah, well, I mean, it seems like there's like 22 circulating images that I think 98% of men's ministries use and, you know, so it's, it's all good.
It is what it is. You know, you're trying to just bootstrap things on a shoestring budget, so I get it. But. You know, I just, I wanted to pursue excellence in every, every detail of this. I felt like the stories we were gonna tell the men who were sharing what they're sharing, it deserved substance. It deserved excellence.
You know, when you're, when you're speaking to the heart of God, uh, to a heart of a man, uh, it needs to, I felt I had a conviction about it needs to be something special and memorable and experiential. And so, uh. Capturing original photography was an absolute non-negotiable. So, and then, um, original photography and, but the people you got to write articles weren't necessarily ivory tower individuals or classic journalists.
Right. Didn't you get like, just kind of normal people with solid stories and Yeah. Um, tell me a bit about that. Yeah, I, I love that you asked that. Uh, you're exactly right. I, you know, anybody who's been in Christian Dem in America, you know, there's kind of a. There's like the same 50, 75, a hundred voices that kind of, you know, take about 95% of the, the airwaves and the podcast and all that.
And that's fine. There's a lot of, I mean, they, they have tremendous messages and they do wonderful things. Um, but something that I was really interested in because I felt like number one, I was, wasn't connecting with a lot of that anymore. I was just connected to, you know, relatability and authenticity.
And it's not that those voices aren't being relatable and authentic, but I, I was just thinking about the everyday guy. Uh, and the everyday person and man who's just like, you know, I'm just trying to do better than, than I was doing before. Um, spiritually. Professionally. Uh, and so I wanted to engage in the story of everyday men.
I. And there was a couple authors that were in there that were published authors, uh, that some people may know, uh, a little bit, but for the most part, yeah, just everyday people. A lot of those stories I just leaned in of people that I knew. And, uh, which was really funny because people said like, how are you gonna find that many stories?
I'm like, are you kidding? Like, there are no such thing as a bad story. There's just bad ways to tell a story. And I mean, I have 50 stories that I could write. Every single guy has dozens of stories if he really does some soul searching and deep sin, uh, or, and digs in. And so. So we just, we leaned into that and, and it was neat.
Something that was really special about that was when I told the guys that we were gonna compensate them to write it. Like, they're like, oh, no, no, no, you can't, like, I'm not, I'll do something. I'm like, no, no. I want your best and I'm going to give you, I'm gonna compensate you because I, I believe in what you're doing is important and I want you to give it your best.
So, uh, but every single guy, with the exception of one or two said this exact same thing. They said, listen, if you don't like it, you just throw it away and I don't really care. I'm like, you just let us kind of handle that. Alright. So, uh, so we had some help with editing. A dear friend of mine, uh, chase, rep Ho, who's a writer and he's a pastor here locally.
Uh, just a tremendous guy and he's one of those people that, uh, just has an incredible voice and incredible eye and very articulate. And I said, Hey, I need your help in editing some of these as they come through. And, and the journal's broken down each section. Faith, fatherhood and Work, uh, has a couple of short opening essays, and then we kind of have a longer feature both writing than photography, and then we kind of tie it up with some shorter ones.
So, you know, there's a format and a structure and, uh, so it's easy reading. But, uh, but yeah, the editing process was, was a lot of fun. But yeah, there's some great stories to tell. So, dude, that's super cool. Yeah, I, um. I, I had some questions about the way you broke it down with faith, fatherhood, and, uh, work.
Are, are you, I'm assuming you're a dad? I am, yeah. I have three kids, yeah. Yeah. Awesome. What ages? 10, eight, and two. Awesome. What were the, like, obviously the context of this podcast being fatherhood a bit, were, were there some major themes that you felt like you wanted to focus on when you approached fatherhood?
And are there some themes in the future that you wanna tackle? Like, what are the things that, that burned in you and how did you guys. Process that portion? Yeah, that's a good question. Um, you know, in, in the time that I was, you know, observing if you will, um, I was like, okay, what are, what are people saying right now?
What, is there a lot of quote unquote content? What are there a lot of books being written about? And early on, um, there wasn't near as much as there is now. There's been a, just a renaissance of writing and teaching and quality material that's coming out for guys, which is just sensational. And I celebrate it all.
It's wonderful. Um, but I felt like. The subjects of faith, fatherhood, and work really encompass the life of every single man. It's about 90 to 95% of a man's life are encompassed in those three words, who they are and their faith as a son of God, as an adopted son, you know, heir, uh, co-heir with Christ, who they are as a father, as a husband, that role the priest of the home.
That important responsibility that we have, uh, that we all aspire to do it well. And to, um, whether you had a good experience growing up with your father or a bad one, you wanna build on what you had. And then the work. You know, initially we actually, I had thought about doing faith fatherhood and entrepreneurship, but the Holy Spirit convicted me on that and, uh, was like, nobody, not everybody's an entrepreneur, nor do they need to be.
Um, yeah. And so I was like, but every man works. There's dignity, there's holiness and work and what we do with our time and with our energy and with our talents. And so, so really those are the three core themes. And so underneath those, and you can really. Tackle anything from, you know, ambition to, um, risk taking, to character, to adventure, to, uh, rest to faith, to surrender.
I mean, all of these things fall underneath those three, but those were kind of the core three. Uh, but something too that we've done that's I think, a little bit different. And I think maybe this, maybe one of the reasons why I think a lot of guys are resonating is there's nothing wrong with the place of.
Healing and redemption of shame and brokenness. Clearly that is the fundamental underpinning of our faith. Uh, however, I feel like a lot of the messaging towards men has been leading with the shame, leading with the brokenness, where it's like guys are just like, man, I just can't, I just can't anymore.
Like, I know I shouldn't be doing this, but I keep doing it, or, and you're telling me I shouldn't do it. Or like, fill in the blank. And, and there's a place for that by all means. Um, but I think there's ways in which we can maybe get to that, uh, those meaningful conversations or those deep, deep matters of the heart, uh, maybe a little bit differently, that might be a little bit more approachable for guys where they might want to engage in relationship fellowship, you know, uh, conversation, whatever it looks like.
Um, by not leading with so much the things that we shouldn't be doing, but rather affirming who we are and understanding like the way in which God sees us, how he's called us into his story. And by that there's a purifying process that within us will not want to do those things because we are being sanctified, right?
That's the process of sanctification. And so, uh, so yeah, that's, that's some of the, some of the thoughts, uh, on some of the things that we've done. Um, and our gatherings kind of echo that as well. We. You know, we, we feast, we break bread. We have an incredible time together, but it's not preaching and teaching.
It's not, you know, it's, it's, it's, we're a brotherhood. We're a fellowship. Um, a lot of the gatherings and the things we do, we read a lot of, uh, from Bonhoeffer's life together. Uh, a lot of things. Yeah. I love about just the way in which we should fellowship with one another as brothers in Christ. And Paul talks about it in the New Testament, this idea of philia brotherly love.
Uh, so yeah, we're leaning into those things imperfectly, uh, but we're leaning into 'em. Yeah. I think what's cool about what you're doing though, I feel like what I hear you saying to an extent is that there's a, there's a bit of an echo chamber or a like, um, just some patterns that we're stuck in in modern Christianity.
And I agree with you, the voices are similar. There's not a lot of innovation, and it's like you're trying to do something that's innovative and excellent, and there's something about that that's not just, um, it's not just like you're doing something innovative and excellent, but you're also almost casting a vision.
For a, for godly manhood and being an excellent father, like being excellent at your craft, um, is, am I catching you? Is that, is that kind of where you are trying to be innovative, but I love bringing Bonhoeffer in, like trying to do rich theology and rich Christianity versus the kind of surf surface level hum drum stuff that we've kind of been doing.
Yeah. Have you, you're exactly right. Um, and we don't have it all figured out, like we don't have this proprietary Sure. You know, methodology. But I do believe a lot of what we're doing, there are some core fundamentals, uh, that I believe are essential, uh, into why we're seeing some of the fruitfulness that we're seeing.
Uh, and so, I mean, that's a whole nother conversation that, you know, and we have some, actually some ideas about to expound upon that and bringing others in that wanna run with something similar where they are. Um, we'll be talking more about that, uh, after the first of the year. But, you know, I, something, something that I've just noticed is like.
Yeah, there's a language that I think it does a disservice if we use within the church. And it's using the phrase the church should, the church should be doing this, the church should be doing that. And it's a lose, lose proposition when we say that because what happens is, is inadvertently you're tearing down the bride of Christ, right?
And we use two words synonymously, but they actually have completely different meanings, which is the physical church building structure. Then the way in which the Ecclesia, the body gathers, those are two different, but synonymously in our culture, they've come together to say, well, you're a part of the church, or, or we go to church.
Well, we go to a physical place where the church gathers. Um, but anyways, there's, there's, there's something there. And actually I've written about it, um, and I think, I think the reason. That we're trying to avoid language that tears down is because I think the church is trying, the physical church, the, you know, the place where people go on a Sunday, on a Wednesday, they're doing everything that they can and that they know how, and I think their resources are tapped where they just, they.
They are stuck in, you know, that space, especially with men where they continue to do the monthly or the quarterly men's breakfast, you know, usually on a Saturday morning they overemphasize the importance of bacon and meat. And, and there's nothing wrong with that. Like we all love bacon, but like, it's just kind of these same stereotypes and um, but I just feel like there's a whole nother population of men that wanna be engaged with their faith that aren't.
That aren't, they're not resonating with that, that message and that style of, of, of reaching men. Uh, and even using that phrase, reaching men, like guys don't wanna be reached, they wanna be engaged with. Right. You know, and even like the idea, like another thing we try not to use is the word curriculum.
Like, I don't dunno about you, but most of the guys I run with, like, they're so tired of curriculum, guys are like, dude, I don't wanna do a 12 week curriculum. Why don't you just come hang out, is what we're gonna talk about. Oh, that sounds good. So a lot of things that we do, we actually remove a lot of the barriers for why guys would say no.
We make it really simple for them to say yes and show up. And, um, so there's, there's a, there's an art form to that and with that too, it's not scalable. It's one of the things I get asked all the time is like, oh, how is this scalable? I'm like, does it need to be scalable? Why would, why do we need to, I, I just wanna go deeper and deeper where we are, prove out ways, concept strategies to galvanize and connect men within a community, and then equip and influence others to do the same elsewhere.
Because I believe there's a thousand guys like you and like me, whose heart burns for this, and they're like, I just need a framework. To, to do this where I am, whether it's five 50 or 500 guys. So that's kinda what we're learning and listening and leaning into. Um, but it starts with edifying the church.
It starts with not casting blame, uh, not blaming culture, this, this and that. You know, we wanna be a part of renewing culture, you know, so. I think all of that's good. And I was telling you before, as a local pastor, uh, I get that the, the constant, the church should, the church should, the church should, can be exhausting.
Oh. But I think what's cool is even as a, um, you know, as a preacher, someone who preaches every weekend, um, I, I have to come back every weekend, go, alright. Like, how do I, how do I, how can I have some creativity and some innovation? And there's so much depth and. Our common history looking at the church fathers or, um, but there is this, yeah, there's just this normality thing where we kind of get stuck in the, the spin cycle of the dryer there.
And it feels like what you're doing to an extent is for running. You're saying like, Hey, I think we can do some things a little differently. I think there's some more creative ways to open up conversation to engage guys. Yeah. And I think that's, I, I don't know if this is the right way to say it, but it's like, man, that's fun.
Like that. It is a lot of fun That brings, brings excitement to my heart and it like restores the fun of. Of exploring new things with God. And I think that's what's cool is like the exy thing to me it's like, for some reason it triggers an excitement in me as a man to even my craft is not at all your craft, but seeing you do your craft excellently makes me want to go back and engage in my stuff and work harder.
So anyway, I just thought that's cool. Even in you saying that, even in you saying that is the perfect, it's the perfect, uh, analogy, like this idea of abundance, not scarcity. You know, something I say a lot of times is, you know, relationally, most guys are transactional in everything that they do. They're like, Hey, you did this for me.
I'll do this for you. Oh, we're buddies now we're friends. No, that's a transaction. But like, we've been so conditioned, you know, because of a lot of men in the marketplace, in the workplace, you know, we do a job, we get this, we get that, you know, it's just, we've been conditioned to like, that's what fellowship, that's what friendship, that's what brotherhood should look like.
And it's just like, no, that's not it. It's actual, like it's, it's. Lavish hospitality because that's what the grace of God is when it's bestowed upon us, it's, it's seeing people, it's seeing one another for who we are, not what we can do for one another. It's just seeing each other for who we are, uh, for who they are.
Not trying to extract something out of someone from my own personal gain, but rather to love one another, to, to be with one another, to show up for one another. This idea of, of attachment. Hey, man, I got your back. You know, I mean, guys want that. And, and so yeah, it's just, it's, it's thinking about how does that look practically.
Um, and so something that I've read, if you haven't read this book and your readers, you need to, if you can find a copy, there's a book called The Alternative to Futility. It was written by Dr. Elton Trueblood. It was written in the 1940s, is it's an extraordinary book. So Dr. Elton Tru Budd was a Quaker theologian, and I love books back then because they were all the length that people actually want books to be, which is like 125 pages.
It's like we don't need 300 page books. Like we just, publishers are pushing it. Not a ton of fluff. No, we don't need the fluff. We just get to the point. So this book is sensational, but he talks about in there, just like this idea of what we need is a demonstration of what it looks like to love one another with the great love of God.
Uh, we don't need intellectual theorizing. We don't need another sermon series. Those are all helpful. Those are all good. Uh, but what we need is a demonstration of what it looks like lived out. Um, and so we're, we're leaning into what does that actually look like? And uh, yeah. Yeah. So tell me a bit. Okay, so the journal was launched.
You sold out. You're, you did the reprint. The hardcover. Yeah. Um, I know you guys are working on the next round. Yeah. Um, tell me a bit about the community. 'cause you're doing some gatherings, you're doing, I think one of, uh, correct me, but your mission statement talks a little bit about, uh, trying to curate conversation Yeah.
Amongst men. Like how, what does the community look like? How, what do those gatherings look like? How are you seeing discipleship take place there? Yeah. So one thing that we like to say is. The majority of our gatherings, uh, we're very meticulous. About 80% of what goes on, where people sit, the layout and the structure of the room, you know, the gift that we're giving, the food that we're eating, the environment, all of that extremely important.
All of it is necessary, and the details, we don't cut corners. This isn't a taco bar in the community room at the church, because it's the most practical thing. Now you have to throw out practicality. If you wanna reimagine and awaken within men a dormancy of their faith and engaged, then, then we have to just throw away everything that we've done from a sentence of practicality.
Now the, the fruit of what we're doing is still there. Like you can meet in a community room and you know, you can meet anywhere and God can show up and there can be this, you know, discipleship and formation. Absolutely. That's essential. But where I'm getting at is, you know, I think practicality of like thinking, oh, well, we'll just, we'll just do this 'cause this makes the most sense.
Well, sometimes you just have to throw out, this doesn't make the most sense, but we're just gonna roll it out and it's gonna be incredible. Like guys wanna be wowed to. And that's, that's, that's something that we've, we've really tried to do and, and there's a lot of details that allow that to happen. You know, I'm not gonna act like, you know, this can be just done all over all the time, but, but I do believe it can be in some capacity.
Um, but to answer your question about like. You know, we always leave room for the Holy Spirit's move. Um, but we don't oversize it. Like, we're not, like, we're not trying to like have this moment within the gathering where it's like, God, if you don't, you know, if this person doesn't say this or do that, or we have this moment.
Like it's just organically happens. And so I think what I have found with a lot of men is, guys, going back to the conversation, we were talking about curriculum. You know, guys don't wanna be overwhelmed what they, what they should be doing, but they do want to be provoked in a good way, thought provoked.
They wanna be nudged and they wanna be kind of pushed to do the next thing that they should do. Right? And so in these gatherings, that's something that we're, we're trying to do is, is to create environments where there's shared understanding about why we're here. You know, we, we lay that out at the very beginning.
We say, Hey, this is why we gather as brothers in Christ. We actually read from Bonhoeffer. Sometimes we'll read from Tyson and we read from a variety of different people. Of course, we read from scripture, we, we usually read from the Psalms and or proverbs to start and to close. But, um, we leave room for things to just happen organically.
We're not overly programming the evening. There's not this like, oh, if we, if we don't get this out of this evening, X, y, Z, then, then, you know, if we don't get this many guys to sign up for the next small group, like none of that kind of stuff. Like none of that. And it's just a completely different approach because.
It's hard to quantify the, you know, the quote unquote return on investment. I mean, I'll tell you, the amount of money that we spend on one of these kinsman table nights is more than probably most churches have in their annual budget for men's ministry. And I don't say that like in a way of like, we have this thing and we have all this money.
By all means, no, not at all. But we are not cheapening the experience and the way in which we are. Serving and creating environments for men to experience God in a beautiful way that a lot of guys really haven't experienced. Um, and so it, it's, it's just some things that we're trying. Um, and yeah, I mean we, you know, we operate as a 5 0 1 C3, you know, we've been able to have some core, you know, donors and partners that say, Hey, we see what you're trying to build here, and we're looking to expand that.
So that we can do it, um, a little bit more frequently, but then also, you know, get the funds and the capital to be able to help others lead elsewhere that have a heart for this. Uh, and there's a lot more with that, but, um, I think, I just think there's something there about, um, throwing out practicality, you know, and, uh, so we do the table, I think I said we do our kinsman table, which is invite only.
Yeah, we do that, uh, three times a year. And I have a list of about 275 men in our local community. Uh, and you know, the room seats one 50, I'll max it at about 1 30, 1 35. I wanna have a little bit of room and space and, and we don't just have a bigger room for the sake of having a bigger room 'cause I wanna keep the intimacy.
But that's why we've also created these other events where we do kinsman nights, which is, uh, a little bit, it's much less expensive, but we still curate a space where it's new, it's site neutral, it's third space. It's not church, it's not at home. It's creating an environment where guys wanna show up and they wanna hang out.
And, and this may come across the right way, this may not, but like, we just try to not make it weird. Mm-hmm. Just don't make, guys don't want weird, you know what I mean? Yeah. Guys want excellence, guys. Like guys wanna be, they wanna be encouraged, they wanna be challenged, they wanna be, you know, they wanna be called up, you know, and there's a way to do that without making it awkward or weird or acting like you're getting, wanting to get something out of them.
If you lead with generosity, if you're leading with how can we serve, how can we pour in? We say this a lot internally. We say we want to keep it small and give it all away. And that's a mindset of being generous, not looking at, of how can we extract or how can we, you know, take this for us. Uh, how can we optimize?
Uh, so those are, those are some things we think about when we're approaching the gatherings that we do. But then also just with the journal, the journal's been amazing in that. It's just, it's number one, it's, people have used it as a reentry point for people in faith that didn't even have a faith or that maybe have fell away from their faith.
Guys are using it in group studies. Um, there's 30 weeks of, of conversation and content, and our podcast is actually the audio version of the journalists. We've given all of that away through, through audio, and it's kind of structured as a, as a group format for guys to listen to and, and kind of dive in more with a couple of probing questions and, and background.
Um, but yeah, so there, there's, you know, what we have found is we kind of, you know, give guys some direction, but you also have to let them run with it. You can't force it. You can't overly Yeah. Program it. You have to let them run with it if they wanna run with it, whatever that looks like. Their faith has to be their own, their life, their ambition.
It has to be their own. But if you're creating environments, if you're creating spaces, uh, and conversations were. It's happening, then they're just, they're gonna hopefully catch on. Right. Yeah. I feel, I feel like some of what I'm hearing you say too is that you're not afraid to challenge and not in a rude or disrespectful way, but you're, to some extent, you're trying to model what is biblical faith as a man.
And then there's a challenge, there's a call, uh, to rise up and to live that out. And so is that, to an extent, is that some of the tenor of the journal or is it a journal? Um, testimony stories. It just feels like, to me, hearing you, that there's this like almost conviction, this conviction call to, to rise up.
Absolutely. Is that, is that, am I hearing that right? Yeah. Oh, you are? No, you said that, you've said that. Well, and, um, yeah, I think, you know, you, like with the journal, you know, there's, there's, it's, there's a lot of testimony and there's a lot of story in there and, and our hope with it, and there's a, there's a breadth of different types of stories.
Our hope is that, you know, when guys are reading that they're gonna find themselves in that story at some point. You know, and they're say, okay, no, this, I can relate to this. You know, we have a guy who wrote an essay about infertility. Guy wants to be a dad. Him and his wife struggled for such an issue.
They struggled for like 15 years. And his essay is a cry of agony. It's a lamenting to be a father and he's still not a father. Like not all stories end the way that we want them to end, and the way in which we want, and the timing in which we want them to end. And it's, it's heartache. And other ones are more victorious and, and feel better, but it's, it's like that's the life of, of anybody who is, is a follower of Jesus.
And, um, so yeah, our hope is that guys will find themselves within the story and then, you know, the gatherings, it's, you know, it's not a, this is how things need to be or this is how you should be doing it as a guy, but it's instead presenting the life of faith in such a way that it's, it's compelling or that it's inviting to say, okay, how can I grow in this?
And so we lean into topics of. You know, the, the gatherings are almost like the journal coming alive and, and you know, in, in proximity and in form, you know, but we lean into, you know, we have, sometimes we'll have, you know, a panel discussion on like, mentor, you know, or legacy or fatherhood and, you know, we'll have people talk about what's happening within our own community.
And there's a sense of locality with our gatherings too, where we really lean into like what's happening in the lives of people. I think that's a really important ingredient about some of the things that we do. There's not this like. This broad sense of like, we're just gathering just to get pumped up.
It's like, no, there's, there's a sense of like, substance for the people in this room because we all drive the same streets and we're thinking about the same things. And so that's why I say we have to be sensitive in the moment about what that looks like. And I think even in that, like you, you are are creating space where guys will allow themselves to go there.
You know, like at our last gathering that we had, or two gatherings ago in October, we, you know, we had these beautiful postcards written for guys or made for guys. And we commissioned them to honor their father, uh, with a written postcard. And, um, and I said, Hey, tonight, we're actually not gonna have a a, a speaker or someone communicating.
We're actually gonna turn the tables and you guys are gonna communicate with each other, uh, and you're gonna be the speakers at your table. And listen, if you, if you don't wanna share and your story's too painful and heartache, like you don't have to just pass. But if you're able to just honor your father and just say some things, like, I think it'll be, it'll be really nurturing for you.
But then also for other guys. And, uh, just the testimony that we heard from that night was just extraordinary. I had one, we had a few father sons that were there, like older fathers, like in their sixties and seventies, and then younger men, you know, guys in their twenties, thirties, forties, whatever. And I had a couple of the older gentlemen just, I mean, came up to me and they were just like, this was one of the most rewarding, impactful nights of my entire life.
One guy, uh, his son was in his thirties, early thirties. They just had their first kid. When his, when he was starting to talk about his dad, who was sitting across from him about honoring him, like he just wept the entire time. He couldn't even speak because he just, he was like, my dad has been there for me in every sense of the word.
And he just, like, in hearing the other stories at the table, like he just was so overwhelmed with gratitude that he couldn't even speak. His dad was there to hear it and it was just beautiful. And, uh, stuff like that, you know, you can't program that. You have to create space, uh, and just allow it to unfold.
So yeah, that, that idea of a young guy honoring his dad and weeping. To an extent. It's like, man, isn't that when, when all is said done at the end of our lives, like I, I hope my kids feel blessed and grateful and Absolutely. I'm like, all the work is worth it. When you hear your, your son raising his own kid, go, yeah, my dad was there.
He was compassionate and present, and that's what I'm after. You know? That's the, that's the goal. Me too, bud. Me too. Yeah. And I think with that. Um, going back to the conversation about the church should and then also with our fathers. Yeah. I think one thing that I've seen in men that holds them back a lot is resentment and unforgiveness and resentment towards the church, unforgiveness towards their father or to some figure.
And it holds so many men back. And, you know, forgiveness is an ongoing thing. You know, it's not a one time deal where it's like you check the box and you're like, good. Got that solved. It's like, no, that's actually gonna. That's gonna show back up again quite a few more times. But I think if we come to a place of wholeheartedness, it means that we have made peace with the things that are broken in our life, whether it be a relationship, a, a friendship, uh, the church, you know?
And I think when we, when we see and recognize that from a place of love and forgiveness, then we can, we can build on that in a really fruitful way in our own lives. Uh, that's just, that's the number one thing that I see that holds a lot of guys back is they, they, they have a lot of resentment. They have a lot of unforgiveness or bitterness and especially towards the church, and especially towards their father.
And, you know, I think it was John Tyson that wrote this. I couldn't remember if he was quoting somebody else in his book, intentional Father or if he said it himself. He quoted quite a few people in there. It was just a great book. But he said, you know, a boy, one of the signs of a boy becoming a man is that he recognized that his father was a child once too.
You know, and understanding it's like, you know, my dad did the best that he could with what he had. And so I'm not trying to like do better than him. I'm just trying to build on what he gave me because he gave me the best that he could with what he knew how. And that's, that's a perspective and attitude of grace and of forgiveness and uh, I think if we lead from that place in our homes and in our lives, God can use that.
He can shape that pretty well. Yeah. I love what you said about, um, everything not needing to be scalable. Um, 'cause it does feel like you have a bit of a heart of like, with a local focus and it seems like you're in to an extent in some guys' lives and face and trying to impact the people in front of you.
And I think sometimes we miss the forest from the trees and trying to again, make everything super scalable and reproducible and, uh, we miss the people right in front of us. And it feels a bit like that's what you're after is not to miss the people right in front of you. 100%. I mean, listen, let's just be completely honest here.
Okay. If you're listening to this podcast or you're listening to another podcast, like it's not gonna change your life, it might influence some things in your life. It might provoke some thought. What's gonna change and transform your life is a relationship with Jesus. It's living, abiding, embodied relationship with other people within a local church, within your community.
It's having a loving, endearing relationship with your spouse. It's loving your kids well. You do that in proximity of the people that you live with. Like we have this idea that social media, that, you know, all of these different forms of technology, um, they, they influence, but they don't shape. Like they do shape and they influence.
But what I'm getting at is like the ways in which they truly transform. Um, those things don't transform, like. Who we are in our everyday world, in our everyday lives is a part of our shaping and that transformation of the heart. And that's done with the people that we live with in a near our church, our proximity, our neighborhood, all of that.
And there's a place for leadership conferences and there's a place for podcasts and there's a place for social media, all of that, whatever. Like I get it, it's good, but we're deceiving ourselves to think that those things are gonna transform us. They're not going to, they might. They might provoke something that maybe we know we need to do or wanna do.
And Absolutely. And that's why we're doing this. We, we want to encourage, we want to equip, and I, I've been trying to use this word, influence more than imp, I'm sorry. Um, influence more than impact. Um, because, you know, influence by definition is like what you're doing is, is changing the trajectory of what somebody else is doing on their own accord.
Like impact is like, I'm forcibly making you change, right. Um, that's the def kind of a loose definition of it. And so I'm like, I wanna, and even inspiring inspiration's great makes you feel good, but it doesn't really do much long term, you know? But like, if you really influence the way someone lives their life, that's a big deal.
And so I've just found so much of what we're trying to do. Like if I'm just gonna be running around trying to do all this thing for all these people everywhere else, but yet in my own life and in my own community, in my own neighborhood, and my own friends, like what does that mean for me? I. That's why I say, and I think I said this earlier, is like, what we're trying to do is a lot of what, like what I know that I need for myself, and I'm like, I bet there's other guys who need it too.
And so we're trying to prove out ways to do that that can be replicated, but it's not like this, Hey, we're gonna open up, you know, 50 kinsman across the country and we're gonna, you know, manage this thing. It's like, no, because there's a sense of, you know, locality where it's different, it's unique for each place.
And, um, but guys are hungry. Guys want to be galvanized. They want to be engaged. They recognize the need. They certainly do. If there's anything that we came out of this with Covid is that guys are more isolated and that they recognize that they need other guys in their lives. Um, but that can be turned into something that's not good.
You know, there's a lot of young men right now that are looking to voices and influential voices online and other places that have some good. But they're not, they're void of of God. They're void of a relationship with Christ, and ultimately that's gonna be something that's gonna be eventually self-serving or selfish or even damaging.
In some ways. We see that, and I'm not gonna name names of influencers and all that, but I mean, we kind of get the idea. And so, but if you have someone showing up in your life consistently, consistently, that that's going to shape you, that's going to help in the transformation of your heart and of your life, and who you are as a person and who you are as a man.
And so we're just trying to create outlets and avenues and environments and spaces in which those things happen. That's what we're trying to do. Yeah. I love that. There's, there's an element of, again, cast, it's like you're casting vision rather than telling me what to do. You're showing us how to do real community, how to do real life.
Yeah. Um. I love that. Okay, so we're getting close to time, but, um, so tell me how the guys can find the journal. Um, if they wanna get their hands on it, kind of get in the articles, uh, where can they get it? Yeah, so kinsman.org. K-I-N-S-M-E n.org. kinsman.org. You can follow us primarily. We're on Instagram. We have Facebook.
I like Facebook. Instagram's pretty good. Uh, personally, I'm on LinkedIn, but kinsman.org, uh, you can order the journal there. It's, we've. I actually have a copy back there, but it's beautiful. We've actually got beautiful custom packaging. We have a really neat analog experiential process. What I found is a lot of people like to give it as a gift, so we've done all of that for you.
Like it's all packaged up. It's just gorgeous. It includes shipping 85 bucks, but then actually we're doing a thing right now. Um, we actually ordered a select number of these beautiful leather notebooks where it says steward because guys that are leading other men, they're stewards, they're stewards of, of men's lives and hearts and relationships.
And so we've printed off some, um. Beautiful companion guides, which is actually the audio of the podcast in print form. And then we have these limited run of these steward guides, this beautiful replaceable, uh, notebook. It's really, really nice, um, that we're including in a 10 pack. So you can actually go to the website and there's a 10 pack on there for 5 99 that includes shipping.
So you can get one for 85, where you can get 10 with those other things for 5 99. And I'm telling you, it's, it's a tremendous resource to use in the business world, in your neighborhood, um, within a church, a group, whatever. Like it's, it's rock solid. So cool. I love that idea as a gift too. Yeah. Alright man, well it was so cool getting to connect and, and chat.
I'm super thankful for you and guys connect with kinsman kinsman.org, right? That's right. kinsman.org and uh, kinsman org. Yeah, I'd love to connect. Alright. Amen. Alright guys, well God bless and uh, we'll, we'll chat with you soon. Thanks bud.