Crystal: Open-source is really important for—especially when it comes to assistive technology, and digital accessibility.
Justin: Welcome to Fork Around and Find Out the podcast about building, running, and maintaining software and systems.
Justin: Managing role-based access control for Kubernetes isn’t the easiest thing in the world, especially as you have more clusters, and more users, and more services that want to use Kubernetes. OpenUnison helps solve those problems by bringing single-sign on to your Kubernetes clusters. This extends Active Directory, Okta, Azure AD and other sources as your centralized user management for your Kubernetes access control. You can forget managing all those YAML files to give someone access to the cluster, and centrally manage all of their access in one place. This extends to services inside the cluster like Grafana, Argo CD and Argo Workflows. OpenUnison is a great open-source project, but relying on open-source without any support for something as critical as access management may not be the best option. Tremolo Security offers support for OpenUnison and other features around identity and security. Tremolo provides open-source and commercial support for OpenUnison in all of your Kubernetes clusters, whether in the cloud or on-prem. So, check out Tremolo Security for your single sign-on needs in Kubernetes. You can find them at fafo.fm/tremolo. That’s T-R-E-M-O-L-O.
Justin: Welcome to F18T, or as you’d like to call it, Fork Around and Find Out, generally. I realized today that your name is also 18 numbers in between. So, C18N lines up perfectly with F18T. Autumn is looking at me as, like, the most—
Autumn: No.
Justin: Craziest person in the world right now.
Crystal: [laugh].
Autumn: This is only second to the time when he showed up bald and scared this [BLEEP] out of me, okay [laugh]?
Justin: For anyone that does not know, this is called a numeronym, all right? Numeronyms are used pretty commonly throughout—especially technology—where you take the middle letters of a word and you make a number, however many letters are in between. So, like, accessibility, right? That is A11Y. That is the very com—because people are freaking lazy, and they will not type it out, and so you do A11—like, Kubernetes, K8S. There are eight letters between the K and the S. Kubernetes is a numeronym, K8S for that. Internationalization, I18N. Observability, all these words they have numeronym representations. And I wanted to start off with that because Crystal is going to talk to us about accessibility and software, and I am super excited for it. Welcome to the show.
Crystal: Yay. Welcome. Thank you for—[laugh] having me. I did not know that [unintelligible 00:03:06] 18 between us [laugh].
Justin: I wrote it out on my little piece of paper right here, and I counted the letters. I made sure. And so—
Crystal: That was news to me.
Justin: Autumn, you’re still looking at me like [laugh] I am the craziest person [laugh].
Autumn: Look, I’m never sure if we’re going to get a dad joke, if we’ve gone down the neuro-spicy rabbit hole of a book, or if it’s like math majorness. Like, it just you never know what you’re going to get with Justin, okay?
Justin: It’s just spelling today, and I can’t spell in my head, so I had to write it out.
Autumn: Don’t lie. That’s spelling and math. You put the numbers in everything.
Justin: This is algebra. This is—
Crystal: I have to say, a lot of people use the—you know, especially for accessibility because when you’re hashtagging and like that, takes up a lot of, you know, valuable—
Justin: Yeah, character counts we got to—
Crystal: Yeah, so I try to balance it out with, I’ll use accessibility the first time, and then I’m using A11Y. I know it makes some people mad, but I’m like, I need more. I have a lot to say [laugh].
Justin: And like, that has been ingrained in me in every documentation ever written. Like, spell out the thing first and then use the acronym, right? And, like, you can do that—
Autumn: I’m glad it’s ingrained in you because the amount of people that throw around acronyms pretending like we’re all supposed to know what they’re talking about.
Justin: I mean, in written context. If I’m writing a blog post or a documentation, something like that, the first time, I’m going to say—even at AWS, right? Like, AWS, you had to spell out Amazon Web Services the first time in official blog posts, and then you could say AWS, like, it was not allowed in a blog post or docs.
Autumn: I worked there for four years, and I still got blogs in review, and I haven’t worked there for two [laugh].
Justin: [laugh].
Autumn: They’re never getting out, y’all [laugh].
Crystal: I once freelanced for a place, and then I left for, like, a year, and came back, and I got assigned tickets that I had put in a year before [laugh].
All: [laugh].
Crystal: But they also didn’t realize I had left; they thought I was—
Justin: Lazy [laugh]?
Crystal: Just changed floors.
Autumn: Tell me somebody came back for a stupid edit, and was like, “Can you move the ‘the’ in this sentence?”
Justin: When I left Disney, the last thing I did was, I was writing a blog post, and they wouldn’t let it go out because I left before it was, like, going to be published. And so, they changed all the author names and, like, put a little, like, tag line at the bottom, like, “This blog post had, like, credit to Justin,” or whatever. It’s like, no longer works here.
Autumn: Doesn’t that make you mad though because, like, in any big corporation, that one blog takes six to eight months of three people sitting on it, sending it back and forth, giving you the dumbest edits that don’t matter, and then they’ll be, like, “Oh well, like, you worked on this for two years, but goodbye.” Like, I was working there while you did it.
Justin: It’s okay. They paid you. It’s fine.
Autumn: That’s my solace for everything [laugh].
Justin: Crystal, so how did you get into focusing on accessibility in software? Why is that important? I want to just start there. Let’s go there. We have lots of other places to go.
Autumn: I got so much, like, rabbit-hole stuff that I’m going to talk about. We’re about to get so off topic, so let’s go there first.
Crystal: Well, to do a very shortened, around, like, ten years ago, one I started to really lose my vision. I’ve always had one [laugh] functional eye, but you know, my other eye, my left eye, kind of showed up and showed out. And it’s like, hey, you can still do everything. I’ll do everything that your right eye can’t do but then about ten years ago, I noticed I started to lose my, you know, my vision wasn’t, you know, I was getting glasses, and I’m like, that’s not working. Maybe it’s because I went to Lens Crafters and [laugh] the classes for $15. Maybe it’s that—come to find out I, you know, ended up getting—I have a visual impairment [laugh] that came about.
And in conjunction with that, I was working as—I started out as a front-end developer. Originally, I worked in journalism, usually in the interactive departments of a few newspapers. And then I kind of—you know, journalism around 2009, 2010 I worked at a paper that had been open for 149 years, and closed right before its 150th year. And I’m like, I don’t know if this continuing on in journalism is probably good. So, I switched over to front-end development, which makes all the times that I skipped and dropped out of college to learn how to code and stuff, like, worth it.
So, then I was doing front-end development, kind of, did it a little bit backwards and moved into quality assurance because I was like, this is kind of like journalism. Like I really, like, kind of discovering why something is not functioning correctly. So, I was doing that, and one day I was working for a company, and I got a ticket that said, test JAWS for this application. And I did not know what JAWS was, you know? I was, you know—overall, I had a, you know, kind of a little bit of familiarity with, you know, accessibility tools were, but not, like, the actual individuals. I didn’t have that much knowledge. And I’m like, what does that mean? So, after kind of trying to, one, figure out—and JAWS as a screen reader, just to let you know—and I would do the whole, like, it stands for… this because I completely forget. So, maybe can put a little asterisk of JAWS stands through this; Crystal forgot this while she was talking [laugh].
Autumn: That happens to me all the time.
Crystal: Even though she deals with the stuff every day, she forgot the acronym.
Justin: Even the acronyms we absolutely know what they are, we do not remember all the time.
Autumn: That’s why I made Justin stop giving me acronym tests because I was like, “Justin… like, I know what it does. I don’t know why it’s named this.”
Justin: Wait for this game for this month because it’s an acronym test. It’s a fun one.
Autumn: Do you see what I have to put up with, okay? Do you—like—I just—it’s ‘Job Access With Speech.’
Crystal: Yes, exactly. I deal with so many acronyms, like, throughout the day. I’m just, like, I all, I know, is I know what it does, and [laugh]—
Autumn: I don’t even know how people got through life before Google, okay? Like, the amount of things I have to Google for acronyms between working in tech and being on dating apps, I’m always just, like, what are we talking about?
All: [laugh].
Crystal: Like, are y’all just making up words at this point [laugh]?
Justin: I want to make a Venn diagram of that.
Crystal: I was on dating apps and I didn’t know what non—it took me a while to figure out non-ethical monogamy.
Autumn: Girl. They got, like, five names for that one thing, and I’m like, just says ‘wants to do everyone.’
All: [laugh].
Autumn: The struggle out here is real [laugh]. See? We’re right here. You understand me. Okay, also, so did you—were you writing when you were a journalist?
Crystal: I kind of started out doing freelance. I worked for an alternative weekly here in Denver called Westword. And so, I was doing—I contributed a lot to the calendar section. So, it’s like, “Oh, go to this club or this band.” And then eventually I became the web editor. I was fired because it was one of those things of, like, your first really big-person job, and I’m like, I can’t really cry in the cubicle and keep [laugh] your job.
Autumn: Unless you work at Amazon. You can definitely cry [laugh].
Crystal: [laugh].
Autumn: I’ve got too much coffee this morning. Who let me on this show?
Crystal: [laugh].
Justin: That was spicy. Oh, my gosh.
Crystal: [laugh]. I can’t breathe.
Justin: That one—to all of our ex-AWS colleagues out there, you know. But I guess not at newspapers, huh? They don’t like that. As a web editor, you’re not allowed to.
Crystal: The funny thing is, is that I was in conflict because some of the higher-ups, because they had moved from WordPress to Movable Type. And I was like, “Why did you do that?” I don’t know why because I was like, “Well, if you want your reporters to actually contribute to online”—because this was, like, back in 2007, and so you didn’t have a lot of reporters they were really contributing to, like, writing online, like, for blogs and stuff. And I was like, “Maybe we can go back to WordPress.” They were like, “No.” I know. Now, I’m like, I feel vindicated because no one—when I mention Movable Type, people are, like, “What is that?”
Autumn: Not just that, but I mean this, like, let’s just be real. The only reason Wordpress is still a thing is because they got everybody in a monopoly death grip of the internet. So, like [laugh], Crystal is vindicated. Like, I’m sorry I told you the future, and then you made me cry. Jerk.
Crystal: But you made me cry in the cubicle, and I—
Autumn: The amount of women in tech, though, that situation has happened to where you write, they tell you’re wrong. You got to go cry in a cubicle, and then it’s your fault? Like, I’m just, like, oh, we’ve heard this story before. It’s our whole career.
Crystal: And one of the funny things, like, I was really concerned about accessibility, even back then, before I really learned about digital accessibility because I remember, in my interview for the web editor position, I talked about the flashing ads, and I brought a Pokémon. I was like, “Have you ever watched Pokémon before?” And I was like, you know, going through the case of how the episodes cause kids who have seizure disorders, health risks. And so, I was like, these ads are the same, and you have a responsibility for people who are [laugh][unintelligible 00:12:49] your website. So, it’s funny because even when I wasn’t, like, this is, you know, digital accessibility, I had always been kind of concerned about that in, kind of, my—in throughout my roles, even though that was like me being a web editor. Because I’m like, well, I’m concerned about the web part of this paper, so, yeah.
Autumn: But I love that. That means you were meant for that, but you just didn’t know what it was called yet.
Crystal: Yes [laugh]. And then I cried, and then I eventually left, and—
Autumn: That’s because they were too good for that job. They didn’t appreciate you. It’s okay.
Crystal: [laugh]. Yes. But when I was doing quality assurance, getting that ticket for JAWS, I’m like, I don’t know what this is, and ended up rejecting the ticket because I was like, “Hey, you can’t really ask someone who’s never used this software before to test this is going to be accessible.” You know, especially something like JAWS that it has kind of a high learning curve, but from that point on, I was like, you know what? One, I want to learn more. Two, I know, like, my vision is not really great, so maybe this can be something that can help me out.
And then from there, I really just kind of started digging into accessibility. And first I was just, like, okay, how do I find more about it? And there were information—it wasn’t like now where there’s more information. I’m not going to say there’s, you know, a plethora of information about digital accessibility, but there’s definitely more now than when I first, kind of, started back in, like, yeah, 2014. And so, a lot of times I—that’s also how I started doing a lot of public speaking because I would find out things, and I’m like, I’m going to share this with everybody else in my predicament of, like, here’s how to get started with digital accessibility. Here are these, you know, introductory things that you should know, and then hopefully you’ll kind of be, like, me and learn more.
And so, that’s really how I kind of got into it. And the more I got into it, the more it helped me out with my visual impairments because I do sometimes need to use a screen reader. And that’s been really great. I actually went to the doctor, and I had the optometrists, and, you know, they’re like, “You haven’t been here in, like, years,” and they’re like, “Why?” And I was like, “Well, I didn’t need to use my prosthetic lens because I just use a screen reader for work.” But through that, I’ve, you know, been able to inform people about accessibility, but also help myself as well. Probably shouldn’t done that. I’m—please anyone listening, don’t do that.
Justin: That’s super interesting, though. Just the idea that, like, you can use a tool to offset, like, solving the problem or helping the problem more. Like, I can just work around this, which is what a lot of us do is, like, this is more convenient to, like, just do it the hard way than to try to go schedule appointments, and—
Autumn: I think that’s common with a lot of people with disabilities, like, my son, when he was having a hard time with reading, he’d get Alexa and everything else to either talk-to-text, or to read it for him. But he was struggling with autism, and ADHD, and dyslexia, so it was like, it was so much work that it was easier for him to find ways around it than to deal—where he would have a hard time writing, so he would type it, or he would talk-to-text it. And I was like, well, I don’t want you to not learn how to write, and then the doctor in the school was like, but I mean, we’re all going to type one day anyways. And I was like, “That’s valid.”
Crystal: You’re absolutely right. Even though I only need one lens because my right eye is [unintelligible 00:16:23], I don’t need it [laugh] it’s like, I don’t need a lens for that. But it’s expensive. Like, a hard lens for my left eye is around $1500, $2,000. It’s a lot of money. And that’s the thing of, I realized, you know, I’m kind of privileged to be able to pay that. But it’s not to say it’s not, you know, still expensive, but there are a lot of people who that is absolutely not affordable in any way, and they’ll have to find ways, too, around that, to access what they need.
And so, even when we’re pushing, I know we’re kind of all over, but when it comes to, you know, accessible assistive technology, a lot of people forget, but, you know, they’re thinking about, well, software in digital things, but a lot of assistive technology is also for people who have mobility issues. With their hands, they can use a mouse stick or a head stick where they have—like, they can strap it onto their forehead, and to type and do things like that because depending on what is needed, not everything can be solved with digital technology.
And so, that’s something I always really try to stress to people. It’s like, yes, we’re in the digital age. We’re in the internet age, and there’s a lot of things that we can do to make life better for people with disabilities, but also just, you know, everyone in general, but that doesn’t mean that the digital solution is always the best. So, it’s funny when you’re talking to you, like, a developer or designer, and they’re like, kind of like, sometimes what you’re doing right here, that code you’re putting out, that diagram that you have for me, maybe that’s not the best solution. That usually, rarely, like, happens because usually I’m dealing with actual components in applications, but I always, like, to make people think about that, kind of like, out-of-the-box, thinking about solutions for accessibility.
Autumn: Because sometimes we get to the point where we want to solve everything with a hammer, and the hammer is not always the right thing for the job. I think it’s super rad though, that you had so many different, almost like, callings to the same path with your own personal, like, struggles, but it make your life better. But then also, you were already interested, in other ways, in other industries, about you. Like, it just shows that how valuable you are as, like, a domain expert in that situation because, like, look at how many different ways you bring value to that and you are an expert in that field, but you can also talk about your personal experiences, and you’re not just somebody who rolled up and decided it was cool, and didn’t really do the work. But also, it’s so cool that you’re actually really passionate about it, and you want to share the information because a lot of times just doing it, to do it, isn’t the same, you know? So, that’s really cool that you’ve—
Justin: Some of the most welcoming communities I’ve ever experienced were in disability circles, right? Like, I had friends that were deaf in college, and I have—like, there’s been so many situations where it’s, like, the desire to share in that community is so strong to help everyone else get better and to deal with the world, right? Because the world is not set up for these things. And it’s like, people are, like, I have a new mouse joystick that works for me in this situation, but it doesn’t work with this software or something. And someone else is, like, oh, I have that solution.
In a lot of ways, the open-source ethos of, like, we are just going to do the right thing for the community is so alive and well in disabled, anyone that needs accessibility, like, those communities, to me, have always, like, carried that on, more so than open-source, where, like, I get to make some money off this now, right? It’s, like, shifted in a lot of ways, where it’s like, oh, you can see the code. You can’t have the code. So, there’s a lot of things that have happened in what used to be open-source 40 years ago, and I feel like communities that have kept that going are the ones that, like, I need this to live, to have a better life, to have my friends have a better life, or my family, whatever. I’m going to go deep into this topic, and I’m going to learn everything about it, and then I’m going to go tell you about exactly what you’re saying with, like, giving conference talks and writing and stuff.
Autumn: I think it’s sad because a lot of medical research is done for either the military, which means you have to be—a lot of their target audience is men between the ages of, like, what, I think 18 and 36. So, if you think about how many, like, black women or people with disabilities who are never brought into the medical conversation so, like, think about how many times you’ve seen a parent on GoFundMe raising money to push a drug forward because it’s a drug for rare situations or a rare disease, and their kid’s going to die if someone doesn’t do that, you know? Like, it gets to the point where you have to advocate for yourself and your children because there’s so many gaps for the disabled community, and for a lot of under-representative medical communities, that you have no other choice. If you look at open-source, what is open-source? It is people solving a problem because it’s usually something that they needed. So, the two really mesh.
Crystal: Yeah, and open-source is really important for—especially when it comes to assistive technology, and digital accessibility—of people really having that drive to go and finding open-source projects, to submit tickets for, you know, to correct issues about, you know, something that’s inaccessible. There’s so many accessibility experts who are out there, who spend their time, their free time, valuable free time, putting in tickets, joining, you know, open-source projects to make sure things are accessible for people with disabilities out there. And it’s also important from the kind of focus of things like right-to-repair because when someone is relying on technology to provide them access, sometimes companies go out of business, sometimes particular applications are sunsetted and things like that. But it’s not easy for someone with disability to just switch to a newer thing or find an alternative, and so they’re either stuck without something that is required for them to have a good quality of life, or, you know, going into debt in bankruptcy to get that so things in here I’m in Colorado. I think in the last I think it was either last year or the year before, having the right to repair.
Because sometimes, when it comes to digital technology, like—or assistive technology—like wheelchairs, the right to—some states don’t allow that to happen because companies are, like, well, if you do that, you void a warranty. You know, we won’t honor the, you know, the warranty that you have. Or it’s just… you can’t do it. And the thing is, it is very important because the thing is, it’s like, well, what can I, you know, do? The open-source community is very important when it comes to digital accessibility.
Justin: I love that you tie that together with the right to repair because that’s totally what it’s—I mean because for physical, like, disabilities of mobility, that is, like, I have to get to the store, I have to get to my doctor’s. But, like, I have to be able to fix the thing that allows me to do what other people will take for granted, or what other people say, like, oh, this is just whatever. But, like, tying that to, like, software right-to-repair as well, where it’s like, hey, Microsoft deprecated Windows whatever, and I needed that because my software only works with it, and I don’t have the source code. I don’t have the ability to repair that thing anymore is another critical piece of, like, right, to repair goes to software. If it’s not open-source, we have to be able to protect people that I need—and people are crazy dedicated when it’s their livelihood, right? They’re like, I have to be able to do this. I will open a hex editor and start matching keys and figure out how to get around your whatever constraints in your deprecation so that I can function as a human in society.
Autumn: And even goes beyond right-to-repair because—and I’m a huge component for updating your version of Java; we know that—but sometimes, like—girl, don’t—just—
Justin: We’re 30 minutes in, and Java’s here. All right [laugh].
All: [laugh].
Autumn: Well, it’s important, though, because Apple changed their API for Macs at a certain point, and a lot of the accessibility features for Java were not compatible, so they need it to be back-ported from a later version of Java. But at a certain point you stop, contrib—or you stop doing back-ports, and doing certain, like, levels of maintenance for older LTSS, so you’re just going to do security, and important back-ports, right? But one row of back-ports I did, it was accessibility, and it was to an LTS that we weren’t going to actually start doing back-ports unless they were security or important, but you have to fight. Like, dude, these people need these things, and they can’t use their computers, and not everything is going—like, we can push people all you want to upgrade, but not everybody’s going to listen, and it affects those people’s lives. And then just trying to get it to work with things that just aren’t compatible, you know, and trying to bring that back, and then you have to lobby: this is really important, even though it’s this huge burden, and it’s not for an LTS that we’re supporting.
So, we didn’t end up getting them all done, but I was like, let’s get as many done as possible because it’s like the slider that there’s so many UI parts that people don’t realize that you have to do it. So, that was one of the best contributions to open-source is being able to fix those accessibilities, and to, like, back-port them, and being able to, like, make it work for those versions. Because what if those people don’t have access to whatever program? Sometimes there are programs that they need. And, like, we all do, like, what digital therapy, we do all kind of things, and when you’re disabled, you might not have the mobility to get to a doctor’s appointment or to get somewhere. Maybe that’s how you take in conferences or you do your job.
Crystal: It’s always wild to me that sometimes you’ll get people who, you know, who’ll get it up—they’ll understand about security, but not understand that accessibility really is, you know, on that same level.
Autumn: It should literally be on par with it. If you’re going to put security updates to that LTS, you should also do accessibility.
Crystal: Yes. I wrote, like, a little while ago about InfoSec and accessibility and password managers because a lot of password managers in the past weren’t really, you know, accessible, which, that leaves you open to a vulnerability. Also being open to the fact that, you know, I know one thing—you know, there’s this book call—it’s a, you know, a physical book that’s, like, ‘The Book of Passwords.’ And people are, like, “Don’t put your passwords in there.” But it’s a thing of, well, if I can’t physically have my password, and the password manager is not accessible to me, well I could use the same password over and over again, and then that you have a vulnerability of, [laugh] you know, of your data because, well, your password, you know, it’s not going to be a 20 character password with, like, symbols; it’s going to be something that you can remember, and you’re using it at, you know, a hundred different sites and things like that.
You know, I tell people it’s like, well, if you’re concerned about security, you also have to be—like, accessibility is not just front-end. It goes throughout, like, digital technology everywhere. It’s one of those things, like, accessibility is important. It’s on the same level with many things that we think of. And it’s not—you know, this is something a lot of accessibility experts say—accessibility is not an afterthought. And it really is not. It’s cliched saying, but it’s cliche for, like, for a reason.
Justin: One of the things I think is interesting where that overlaps is, I remember back in the day when accessibility features in Windows and on websites ended up being the vulnerability, right, where they’re like, oh, guess what? I can open up prompts on a Windows login screen because I can click the screen reader, which then opens a way for me to get to see. Like, whatever the process was just, like, oh, these pieces that were afterthoughts ended up being the vulnerability, and if you would have integrated that ahead of time, you could have avoided these things, and you could have known, oh, why wouldn’t I want to have a prompt at a login screen? Like, those things are important, and that’s super interesting.
And you also reminded me, years ago, my mother in law was like, she was signing into [unintelligible 00:28:38] website, or whatever new streaming service—I don’t remember what it was—and she pulls out a little notebook, and she wrote it down, wrote down the password. She’s like, “Oh, you probably don’t like that I do this.” I’m like, “I think that’s fantastic.” I was like, “I love that you do that. I don’t want you to use—you don’t have to use a password manager.”
So like, write it down somewhere. So, you have a unique password that maybe you can’t remember. Because if you can’t remember it, it’s probably long and has something complex in it that might be better than you just saying, like, oh, it’s dog123, right? That’s not a great password. So absolutely, like, I think that’s fascinating when there’s overlap there too, of, like, oh, maybe the best practice doesn’t fit every situation, and at some point it is just a practice for some people, and we have to throw those rules out the window when it’s just not going to work, and we have to be aware of those things too.
Autumn: I think that’s one of our biggest hindrances in security, is that we build these security features for technology and to combat certain aspects of technology, but we forget that the biggest, weakest link as humans, right? So, if we don’t make technology practices and security practices where it fits human nature, and part of that is we’re all built differently. We all, our brains are differently—
Justin: All humans. It’s not the ideal, here’s the one—
Autumn: Like, okay, think about the amount of people that we know are super neuro-spicy in tech, and we’re going to pretend, like, we all were going to remember passwords to every different thing. Be real. What did you have for lunch yesterday, Autumn? I don’t know [laugh]. You know what I mean? I am the worst with passwords, with a whole software and security degree over here.
If you look at so much of security, it is definitely human psychology and how we interact with tech, right? And, like, how our biases and so many things. And if we are not taking accessibility in with that, you’re setting people up for failure. If that isn’t part of the conversation, how can we truly make products, and best practices, and put things in place? Because what’s going to happen when it doesn’t work for you? You’re going to go around it, which makes it even more insecure.
I feel like I’m like, on this new, like, thing of preaching, like, for one, how is human psychology in accessibility, and just all of how we interact with technology, what is that intersection? And then, like, the world has changed so much in the last couple of years, right? Like, we’ve had so many advances.
Justin: This month has been a world change.
All: [laugh].
Autumn: Okay, we’re all around the same age, right? Like in high school, think about what you could do from your phone. Think about how you interacted with the world.
Justin: You had a phone? Hold on [laugh].
Autumn: Later. Later. Much later. Much later.
Crystal: [laugh].
Autumn: And it was because I was left unattended, okay? It was not because it was good. It was because of for all the wrong reasons. So, think about it, right? We have not we, like, our laws are the way that we just think about things has not caught up with technology. We are not securing things in a way that is with this level of misinformation, just how humans interact with it.
Like, you need a phone for everything. People will be, like, “Oh, well, if the millennials didn’t buy that iPhone and that coffee,” what can you do without a phone? We literally are setting up a program to help people who are unhoused fill out applications and stuff because you can’t even get help to be housed without technology.
Justin: I totally—like, I remember my own mind shift of, like, thinking, when I was younger and I would see people that were unhoused with phones, and I’m like, they can afford a phone; they should be able to afford something else. And then, like, realizing it later that, like, I can’t do anything without a phone. They have to have that.
Autumn: But okay, but do you see how you had a mind shift and your brain was open? Trying to understand and explain that to old dudes, and, like, try to, like, tell them why we’re advocating for this, they will fight you to the death [laugh]. And I’m just, like, I need you to open your brain to other people and their experiences that are different than you [laugh].
Crystal: It’s like, oh, well, you can apply for a job. Like, you can just go in. The amount of places that will kick you out if you try to go in and try to apply, places, like, Walmart or Target, like, if you go and say, “Hey, I want to apply for a position here,” no, they send you to a—like, sometimes, if they have a kiosk there, they’ll send you to that kiosk, or they’ll just say, “Go home and apply online.” And it’s like, no more can you, like, oh, you know, beat the pavement, and go around to different companies, and hand out your resume because that’s a sure way to get your resume into the trash.
Autumn: And half the time, people are so understaffed they don’t have time to talk to you. And it’s wild, like, you’ll see people, like, indignant, giving this advice, and you’re, like, have you thought about how the world has changed since you gave that advice, or since you made these social contracts of what you think trying hard and working hard is? Because you’re not even being understanding of the situations that most humans are in. There are whole, like, organizations that—we were thinking about how to volunteer for [Melshouse 00:33:29] Coders, and we’re, like, “Well, what about all the people that don’t even”—Washington is one of the states that has really great, different programs, but you have to be able to have access to those programs. You have to know that they exist, right?
So, like, it’s cool that they’re out there, but if you don’t have somebody giving them a way to sign up for them, and teaching them how to do it. So, it’s like, it’s just wild, how what’s technology and what is also, like, multiple human factors that you need to add into that to make using that technology successful.
Autumn: Running Kubernetes at scale is challenging. Running Kubernetes at scale securely is even more challenging. Access management and user management are some of the most important tools that we have today to be able to secure your Kubernetes cluster and protect your infrastructure. Using Tremolo Security with OpenUnison is the easiest way, whether it be on-prem or in the cloud, to simplify access management to your cluster. It provides a single sign-on and helps you with its robust security features to secure your cluster and automate your workflow. So, check out Tremolo Security for your single sign-on needs in Kubernetes. You can find them at fafo.fm/tremolo. That’s T-R-E-M-O-L-O.
Justin: Crystal, how has accessibility and software changed since you started diving into it and—
Autumn: That’s a good question.
Justin: —understanding it.
Crystal: I mean we kind of hit upon it. Like, really the one of the biggest changes is to kind of focus, you know, a lot more smartphones, and tablets, and things like that, and watches and things like that. And the thing is that I’ve really only, again, started focusing on accessibility around, like, 2015, 2016. So, that’s been the biggest thing. The web accessibility content guidelines back—the 2.0—didn’t even have really dedicated criteria guidelines about mobile accessibility, and that came in the update for WCAG 2.1.
And I remember one of my first, like, dedicated jobs with accessibility, was kind of a mapping WCAG 2.0 to mobile accessibility because I was testing native Android and iOS applications. But it was really hard to do that because going by those guidelines, they weren’t really for mobile applications. So, a lot of my time was not just testing, but trying to figure out, okay, this is what these particular guidelines say, and this is for desktop. How does that apply to—and so that’s been the biggest thing, is that because there is a shift with software, that younger millennials, Gen Z, Gen Alpha, they’re not using desktop, and that’s the same for younger people with disabilities. They’re not using, you know, desktops. And so, that really means that there has to be a focus on accessibility for mobile applications and mobile devices. So, that’s been the biggest, you know, shift.
And I think also just the fact that there is more information out there—there could always be more [laugh] because there is a fight to really—because there is still a lot of ableism when it comes to accessibility in technology, there’s a lot of people who still think disabled people don’t use the internet and use technology, which, again, blows my mind. But there really is a lot of people, unfortunately, in places that make, you know, decisions that do think that, that oh, well, our users. They don’t have disabilities, so why should we care about accessibility? So, those are the two biggest things, that there is more knowledge around, you know, accessibility. And especially when it comes to software engineers and developers with different frameworks, like, you know, you have React, and [Vue 00:37:37], and all these, where they there are dedication to making sure that people are able to develop components right from the very start that are accessible. That’s something I’m really encouraged, but there’s so far, like, to go. Because you can provide those tools, you can provide those frameworks, but it doesn’t mean anything if people don’t know how to correctly implement them, and there’s no initiative in the places that they work to make sure that is happening.
Justin: Is that a piece of practical advice you’d give to anyone listening to the show, like, a developer? How would I make my software more accessible? It sounds like using some of those frameworks is just step one. Like, don’t roll your own. You’re not going to have the rest of the stuff in it that would be accessible for people in various states, and I’m sure, React, and Vue, and some of these more popular frameworks, at least, already try to adhere to the web accessibility, like, standards, right? They’re like, oh, we’re going to implement some of the features that are required at a fundamental level.
Crystal: Yeah, at a fundamental level that, you know, there’s really good documentation. I know I’m in the midst of kind of re-skilling myself, like, so know there are tons of frameworks out there that I’m, like, needing to get familiar with, but a lot of them do have documentation of, like, how to go about using these frameworks to make sure things are accessible. And it’s really the want and desire of reading that documentation to do that correctly. Also, this is something, another kind of cliche within the accessibility community, but it’s very important, and that is using semantic HTML because I kind of consult with developers, like, all the time, that’s kind of part of what I do, and a lot of the issues that come about is because they’re doing kind of really custom things, and that really had they used [laugh], like, semantic HTML, then it wouldn’t have been an issue. And then that’s when it comes with ARIA, which is—I was actually just talking about this on social media just the other day—I know I’m kind of jumping around [laugh] with this—if you can’t use semantic HTML, then you can use ARIA. And ARIA stands for Accessible, Rich internet Applications.
And really that’s for—ARIA is when you can’t use semantic code to make custom, like, widgets and components accessible using the header element or H1 and H2 because assistive technology, screen readers and other assistive technology, they understand what those elements are for structurally. So, that’s the thing of, if you use semantic HTML, then screen readers and other assistive technology are better able to read the site, the application that the person is using it on. If that does not happen, then you’ll need to use something like ARIA to kind of make up the difference. The thing is, is that a lot of times when people, they don’t use semantic HTML, then there’s a report that something, it’s inaccessible, then they’ll go to use ARIA. But a lot of times people do not understand—developers do not understand ARIA because their first introduction to ARIA is they have a ticket to fix a bug.
It’s not truly, like, realistic because, you know, a lot of times, developers or dealing with legacy code that they can’t go in and refactor and do things like that. So, it’s not ‘so don’t use ARIA.’ It should be more of ‘if you do have to use ARIA, you need to know how to use it correctly and understand it.’ And that’s something that, you know, I really press upon developers. It’s like, please learn that it shouldn’t be your go-to but I understand that you’re not control. Like, you don’t control the whole codebase, so you can’t go ahead and do everything.
But understand how to do this correctly because if you’re doing it incorrectly, it really does have a major effect, depending on what you’re working on, that this could mean someone, they can’t access an application, and that application can mean the difference between them not getting to a program, losing opportunities, and things like that.
Autumn: How can people get context for learning ARIA and stuff? Also, I have another follow up question after this.
Justin: I just opened their docs, and I love their, like, opening statement of basically, like, “Use native HTML elements and attributes wherever possible. ARIA is a fallback. Don’t try to, like, shove this in there.” And then their first example—like, this, is great docs, just pulling this up—like, the very first example, the very first example, has a HTML, like, a div, and it’s like, “If you have a progress bar, here’s how you add the value now, the value at minimum, the value at maximum, and that’s how someone can see a progress bar loading without being able to see it if that’s that attribute, or if that piece on the page isn’t already accessible.” And that’s, like, a great start right there. I love that.
Crystal: W3C’s Web Accessibility Initiative has really, really good documentations on ARIA. Also, that’s where Web Accessibility Content Guidelines is, as well. That’s kind of the first thing when I’m meeting with, like, a developer, those are the first things I’m pulling out because it’s all there, and there’s so many great people that contribute to these initiatives. It’s the first place to go, and it’s one of the best, a good fundamental grasp of how to really start developing, you know, for accessibility and fixing issues of inaccessible issues.
Autumn: We all know it’s hard to get into open-source, and it’s not always welcoming to everyone, and we’re trying to change that, and open-source is going through a lot right now, but do you think that it’s easier for people to, kind of, point out, and ticket, and kind of add a voice, and get a seat at the table in open-source than it is, like, a major FANG company? Because it’s really hard to, like, give a voice and to draw attention to the things that we need to change without having a seat at the table. And people from that may deal with disabilities, to be able to say, “Hey, this is not working for me,” and I would, like to think, in theory, being able to open a ticket on GitHub and having, you know, to be able to join Slack for an open-source project or make comments on GitHub would be more accessible to at least show people, hey, I’m struggling with this part. Do you think that is a way that we can make better software?
Crystal: I think it is more accessible. Is it easier to get? That’s kind of debatable. Where trying to talk to, like, corporations and things, like, unless you’re someone who’s, like, working inside the company or is a customer that you know spends a lot on products and stuff, it can be a lot harder to do that. And so with, you know, open-source projects, it is as easy as submitting an issue on GitHub and things like that.
But something I have noticed is that sometimes, like, they’ll submit issues and they’ll just sit there, and people will—sometimes, I have seen people write out, like, “Well, why does this matter? This is, you know, this is not something that really matters for this project.” And that is very disheartening. And for someone who is maybe new to accessibility, that can really discourage. Now, there are a lot of old heads for accessibility, they’re not letting that stop them. They will submit tickets. They will follow up.
There are some really cool people, they have thicker skin. But there’s a lot of, like, newer people who are new to accessibility, who, you know, really mean well, but, you know, and they’ll do this, and they’re like, “I submitted a ticket.” And it’s like, awesome, great. And they’re thinking, well, now this is going to get solved. And I’m like, whoa.
Let’s put a break on your expectations. Like, you know, hopefully that will happen. Maybe you won’t do you will have to do a lot of pushing on that. Sometimes you really do. But yeah, I do think it’s more accessible. I don’t know if it’s easier to get accessibility dealt with.
Justin: We’ve been talking all of the accessibility—or at least, mostly accessibility has been focused on the front-end, web interfaces, applications, screen readers. Have you have any accessibility for audio, you know, text-to-audio, or screen readers for, like, terminals, for back-ends, for command line? That seems, like, I was just trying to think, like, how does that get implemented? Or…
Crystal: I wish I had the opportunity, and probably, you know, maybe one day, you know, I really will. There are people that do that, but I haven’t really ever had the opportunity to work on things like that.
Justin: If any of our listeners know about something along those lines, a tool or a console, like, a terminal emulator that, like, supports screen reading—because I was trying to think, like, how I would grep logs, how I would do the things that I commonly do as a sysadmin, doing operations, to be able to—because there’s just, like, there’s so much information. Like, I would be reading a book every time I try to, like, grep out those patchy logs.
Crystal: Well, there are—I mean, you can still because I know plenty of visually impaired and blind developers, and they still use the terminal. And these are developers that use both Mac and Windows. And the thing is, I don’t know all the different, you know, accessibility tools for that, but usually, yeah, they either use, they’re using JAWS a lot of times. If they’re on a Mac, they’re obviously having to use VoiceOver.
So, that’s something I’m also trying to dispel. I know so many awesome blind developers who are just great at building things, and things like that. And it’s one of those things of, it’s really a shame that people don’t realize that because they think, well, obviously you can’t see; you know, you can’t code and stuff and like that. That is not true. I remember, again, one of my very first jobs that focused on accessibility, my coworker, Ethan, he was great and I was always going with to him to ask, like, coding questions and things like that because he was awesome.
Like, also his screen reader was very fast, and so I would always hear it. Like, I got so even before I got really good at using my screen reader, I was so used to, like—so now, when I use a screen reader, and I’m like, I’m demoing an issue and things, I have to turn my rate down really, really, like, [laugh] slow because I’m so used to, like, using it. It’s like, [high voice] bebabedabeb—[laugh]. Part of the reason is because before I got really—I was so used to hearing Ethan’s [laugh].
Justin: I have two more questions. One is, we talked about how open-source enables people to repair their software and things. I’ve, for a long time, been impressed with how much accessibility features Apple has put into the iPhone. IOS, I feel like has done a lot in just making some things functional that I didn’t know existed, that I use some of those tools, just of those tools just because I’m like, this is convenient and I like it.
It’s a closed-source platform. If you don’t fit that mold or you don’t have the thing—like, I feel like Android would be better at some of those things, just because it has more of an open ethos, or more deep integrations into doing something in the system. From your experience, has one platform been better than the other—Android versus iOS—for accessibility?
Crystal: [laugh]. Dangerous [crosstalk 00:49:06].
Justin: It’s your opinion. It doesn’t matter. I mean, everyone can have an opinion here. I’m just kind of curious from your experience.
Crystal: [laugh]. So, the thing is that, personally, like, my work phone is iOS and my personal phone is Android. I prefer Android. I feel there’s a lot more when it comes to accessibility features and tools for me. So, that’s why I use it. IOS, I think really, for a long while, was really the kind of star and standard when it came to accessibility, that really took it seriously.
So, now it’s really about, you know, if you’re if that’s what you’ve spent years and years using for your accessibility needs, it’s just easier, like, to—it’s the reason why when people—you know, just like someone who doesn’t use the iPhone for accessibility, and they switch it Android, and then they’re like, even if it has a lot of the things that they want, but they’re like, “I don’t like it because it’s not what I’m used to.”
Justin: Yeah. Familiarity is so important. And that goes right back to the deprecating software, and even, like, site redesigns, and everything. Like, that throws everyone for a loop, when it’s like, oh, like, now everything is different, and they’re like, oh, we’re going to—“We launched the site. We’re going to get to the accessibility features.” I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen that. I’m like, “No. Like, you didn’t launch the site. It’s not complete. Like, stop it.”
Crystal: I mean, for me because I do use, like, the one screen reader I can say I’m really good at using, is TalkBack. And that’s because I really started using a screen reader on my phone, and obviously I had Android, and so that was TalkBack. Google’s Lookout, which was really built for blind, and visually impaired people because when I need to, like, read something on my medicine, like, because a lot of times it’s super, super tiny; I have hold it up to my face, I won’t be able to read it. So, being able to, like, take snapshots of, have it tell me what something is for me, you know. And then now there’s so much more, and they’re like and they’re constantly doing innovations and things like that, and adding more features.
But the same thing is true about Apple as well. So, it does really come down to, well, how long have you been using it? And then, two, what are you more concerned about? Do you really want that freedom of being able to build for it? Because you can definitely do that on the, you know, Android side, versus on Apple. So, it really does come down to that I—and so, that’s where I’m kind of, like, you can make cases for both. You know, for me personally, I like Android. One because it was the price, but now that doesn’t matter because—[laugh]—most of the—[laugh]—
Justin: All right, and my last question, I say the most—and maybe the most spicy, but the moment I was really interested in, and I didn’t want to talk about the whole time, how has the current implementation of AI, generative AI, affected accessibility? Has it at all? Has there been changes, in that either things are more difficult or things got better? I’m really curious, like, how, from that perspective, anything has kind of bled over into this, like, world of we made it one way, we shipped it really fast, and half of it doesn’t work. But is it doing any good in the accessibility world?
Crystal: I think there is an over-reliance from people who are, like, okay, generative AI is going to solve accessibility. And I can definitely—I will say that with my whole chest, there’s no way generative AI is going to solve all for accessibility. Am I someone that’s, like, AI has absolutely no use? I’m not going to say that. To be honest, I don’t really believe that.
There are some uses that are out there. I know Be My Eyes is something that I use, that uses AI, which is kind of great when I’m taking pictures and stuff because I can’t see it. And having it described, it does a fantastic job, and that is AI-driven. And I really like that, and other people who are blind and visually impaired who use Be My Eyes, it’s been really positive. But there has been this thread that has been kind of weaving itself around, of, like, again, AI will solve everything when it comes to accessibility, so you won’t have to worry about it.
And I really, really don’t like that because it’s trying to enforce that accessibility as an afterthought, that it’s going to be solved, like, by magic. The same thing where happened with overlays, where it’s like, oh, overlays are going to solve your accessibility needs, which has turned out is not true, as [laugh] certain news has come out lately about lawsuits in FTC, wanting to find companies who have put forth that idea that overlays can solve everything, and, you know, prevent you from, like, legal liability.
Autumn: Don’t you love how it’s going to get rid of developers, it’s going to solve accessibility, world hunger, like, climate chan—like, it’s just out here. It’s just, it’s magical. It’s doing everything. Not, like, it’s just math or anything and compute power, but, like, you know…
Crystal: That’s the thing, is that when it comes to internet, there’s a lot that’s missing about disability and accessibility on the internet. And this is where this AI is getting trained from. This data is either missing or it is very—it’s ableist, it’s incorrect. An AI can’t mimic someone with a disability if the data that it has access—that it’s generated from is flawed.
Autumn: Oh, just wait. Meta is going to come out with an AI bot that is disabled, deaf and, like, five different colors, and they’re going to be, like, “But we know.”
All: [laugh].
Autumn: Did you see that? Like, I about died. Like, they were like, she’s a black woman, and a lesbian, and she’s got a she’s a single mom. And I was like, well, dang [laugh]. We [crosstalk 00:54:50] all three of them.
All: [laugh].
Autumn: Like, okay.
Justin: I didn’t know—I didn’t even know—because I remember Be My Eyes, like, I remember when the app came out, and it’s all about, like, connecting visually impaired with someone that, like, a real world and, like, as a person that had good vision, you could sign up to be the other connection of that. I didn’t know they had an AI component of it.
Autumn: I wonder if it would help with your color, with the fact that you’re color blind.
Justin: No, they’re just going to say, “It’s, like, blue.” And I’m like, “Well, I don’t what blue looks like.” It’s fine. But, like, I didn’t know that Be My Eyes works on the Meta Ray-Ban glasses. That’s really cool. Like—
Autumn: That is really cool.
Justin: Like, to make that not only, like, hey, I need some help here, but also make it convenient is a really cool—like, I think the more that shifts into this isn’t a hassle is a better thing for everyone. Of just, like, oh, guess what? I don’t have to go through 18 different hoops to then say, like, I need to, like, cross the street right now.
Autumn: I think to streamline it into everyday life, and make it easy, to make it a part of your day, to assist you is what could really help. Like, a lot of the fact that we’re using image detection and stuff like that, like, being able to detect something that’s coming in front of you, but, like, I wish that was more of what the focus is because AI could be really rad. Like, we could use AI to help people, and instead of being, like, let’s use it to find immigrants and to try to hunt people, let’s use it to help people cross the street, Y’all. I swear Elmo needs to talk to, like, half the adults in the world because I can’t [crosstalk 00:56:11].
Crystal: I usually have, like, “What is that on my floor?” And it’s usually, like, “It is a fluff ball.” [laugh].
All: [laugh].
Crystal: I—and that’s [crosstalk 00:56:22]—
Justin: Is this a bug? Is it a sock?
Crystal: Oh, yes. Yes, yes. I am totally, like, “What is that?” And so, I never—when—Be My Eyes, I never use the portion where, you know, you could call someone to have you because I’m like, I got trust issues. And I’m like, no, I don’t want you [laugh]. But soon as I, you know, I could use something that it’s like, it’s just, I’m like, cool. I, [laugh] like, I’ll use it to I’m like, is it—because that’s a lot of it. It’s like, what’s this say on the side of, like, this thing, you know, of this bottle? Yeah, is that a bug? [laugh].
Autumn: See, I wish people would ask, hey, what could we do, and how could we implement this to make your life better? Because guess what? That’s also going to be more profitable, right? If it has a real use, it will still be more profitable than just making weird cartoons on the internet. I don’t.
Justin: Our first guest on the show, Kelsey, he was just [saying 00:57:10] on BlueSky the other day, “The future of AI is whatever makes the most money.” That is exactly—
Autumn: But that’s all tech. This is a business, bro. Like, [laugh] every time I have to give a talk about why to include women in things, we’re 51% of the population. What do you mean? In what business do you just not care about your audience, or 87% of discretional, like, spending? Like, what do you mean?
I’ve been following you on Twitter for so long, and then to BlueSky because the Twitter’s the bad place now. Okay, your blog on anxiety—first of all, the picture you have behind you is my favorite of your profile pictures. It is the cutest freaking picture ever—and then your blog on anxiety, there’s a whole part of the blog where she, like, monologs, and starts talking about who would play her in the movie in the moment she’s having, and it’s Keke Palmer, but, like—or, like hologram of Eartha Kitt. I have never been so consumed by a piece of reading. There’s a Beyoncé moment in this I’ve never felt so seen. It is fire.
So, the whole time we’re, like, I worked in journalism, I was like, “Were you a writer?” Because damn, girl. I was like, I went there for tech content. I didn’t know what I was getting. Who is she? Can we be bestie—“Break my Soul” from Beyoncé is in here, okay? There’s a whole monologue. She said that, “Not only would her cats would be played by black dog with little self-preservation and even fewer teeth.” Who sentences that?
Crystal: Well, [unintelligible 00:58:38] has no—like, he’s with my ex now, but he has, like, little too, he has little snaggle tooths. Yeah, and he—[laugh]—
Autumn: This is the most fire paragraph of anything that I have ever read in my life, okay? In the last part about how Keke is sitting on a chair and, like, smoking cigarettes, not that you smoke, but because that’s the tropes that—so I pictured it, okay? Like, my brain was there. I had a whole out-of-body, like, experience and visual. It made my entire life.
Crystal: Yeah, that was the summer, the apart—the building’s elevator tried to kill everybody in [laugh] the whole—it was the whole thing. It kept trying to set itself on fire. So, I was having—[laugh]—I was going through it.
Autumn: I’m so glad that you didn’t die in the elevator, and I am so glad that we got this gem out of you not dying in an elevator [laugh]. I was sitting here, like, trying not to be late for my kids awards, and, like, in between meetings, like, this is amazing. Also, Keke Palmer should so play you. And, like, I just saw her hair be, like, just a little bit messed up because she got look good, right? Because it’s movie, but then, like, just in—look, chef’s kisses. Chef’s kisses.
Justin: Where should they find you online? Where should they read this blog? We can have links in the [show notes 00:59:54], but we can tell them too.
Crystal: I’m on BlueSky. It’s like, scopicengineer, at whatever the ending of BlueSky is. And then my website, you know, crystalprestonwatson.com, and then from there, you can get to my blog from there, but you also can do a11ysavvy, and that takes you to my Accessibility Savvy blog.
I do longer form. So, I don’t blog, you know, constantly. I usually because sometimes, other than when I’m having the existential crisis, I do a lot of research with my blogs. So, I did one, you know, if you want to read about why porn needs to be accessible, I’ve done a blog about that, and that required me to go deep into the Supreme Court.
Autumn: Accessibility has never been so interesting, y’all. Like, I just want you to know, like, I was over there with, like, popcorn. Like, I was just, like, “What?” Like—
Crystal: [laugh]. I’ll probably have some more stuff coming, and I’m—definitely some more stuff coming—
Autumn: Please write more things.
Crystal: —in the year.
Autumn: I want to read them, with just full excitement and enthusiasm. It gave me life, okay? I was so bored this morning. I had [unintelligible 01:01:00] on a second cup of coffee, just, like, this is amazing [laugh]. Do you have any advice for making security more accessible so it can be better used, so people don’t feel the need to just go around it?
Crystal: People in security really need to talk with people with disabilities. I mean, you know because I know I’ve done some, probably stuff that’s, like, ehh, this is not really a good InfoSec, but I’m going to do it because it’s [laugh] not accessible. But I think that’s the biggest thing. There’s nothing technological-wise I can really say that would make as big of a difference is to really talk to disabled users, and really understand, when things aren’t inaccessible, how that can cause security risk and security issues.
Autumn: We should do a talk together about security and accessibility.
Crystal: I would love. That I once worked for, you know, like, a federated, like, ID, like, company, and so that’s kind of where I got really interested about, you know, InfoSec and stuff like that, and that’s why I’ve always kind of, you know, in the back of my mind with accessibility, I’m just, like, got to keep that in mind in making sure that we’re thinking about accessibility. Even though it’s like, well, you can’t—you know, there’s no back-end code for accessibility, but it’s like, yeah, but there’s a lot of things you still need to think about when it comes to disabled people in information security as well.
Justin: Crystal, thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you everyone for listening, and we will talk to you again soon.
Justin: Thank you for listening to this episode of Fork Around and Find Out. If you like this show, please consider sharing it with a friend, a coworker, a family member, or even an enemy. However we get the word out about this show helps it to become sustainable for the long-term. If you want to sponsor this show, please go to fafo.fm/sponsor, and reach out to us there about what you’re interested in sponsoring, and how we can help. We hope your systems stay available and your pagers stay quiet. We’ll see you again next time.
