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In this episode of the Wealthy Woman Lawyer® podcast, I welcome Amanda DuBois, Founder of DuBois Levias Law Group, a woman-owned family law firm where those going through divorce could feel empowered to make courageous endings and chart brave beginnings.
What if you could hang out with successful women lawyers, ask them about growing their firms, managing resources like time, team and systems, mastering money issues, and more; then take an insight or two to help you build a wealth-generating law firm? That’s what we do each week on the Wealthy Woman Lawyer podcast. Hosted by Davina Frederick, founder and CEO of Wealthy Woman Lawyer –– every episode is an in-depth look at how to think like a CEO, attract clients who you love to serve (and will pay you on time), and create a profitable, sustainable firm you love. The goal is to give you the information you need to scale your law firm business from 6 to 7 figures in gross annual revenue so you can fully fund, and still have time to enjoy, the lifestyle of your dreams.
Davina Frederick: Hi everyone
and welcome back to the wealthy
woman lawyer podcast. I'm your
host, Davina Frederick, and I'm
here today with Amanda DuBois.
Amanda is the founder of the
Dubois Law Group. And that's a
divorce law firm. In California.
No, in Seattle, you're in the
Seattle area, I apologize. I
started to saw California. And
her law firm has 20 employees,
it is largely women attorneys.
And she man is really
fascinating because I found out
about her because I found out
that she is an attorney who has
written a novel, a legal novel
and legal thriller. And so I am
reading that it's called the
complication. And I invited her
onto the show. And I found out
that she has built this amazing
law firm over the last 20 years,
and in the Seattle area. And
before that she was actually a
nurse. And she recently won a
very prestigious award for her
work, her nonprofit work on
something called the civil
survival projects. I'm eager to
talk with her about that. I know
you guys are gonna love her. And
love to hear all about Amanda
and her law firm. I've got lots
of questions. So welcome. And
I'm so glad you're here. Thank
you. So fun to be here. So why
don't you start out telling us
about your law firm and kind of
give us a sense of the size of
it? Who do you like to serve the
clients you'd like to serve? And
your team?
Unknown: Well, I have an update.
Newsflash, we have a new name.
Because Lucia lavas, just became
a full partner in the law firm.
And so now it's called Dubois,
Leviathan law groups. That's
pretty exciting. And what we're
really excited about is that she
represents I think it's 2% of
women, law partners who are
Latina, which is a statistic I
wasn't aware of. So I'm pretty
proud of that. I know, right? So
we're moving. We have a pretty
diverse group in our in our law
firm, and Lucia is now a
partner. So that or she's a
named partner, she was a partner
before, we have about now we've
got about 25 employees, we have,
I think, nine lawyers and a
bunch of staff, and sort of that
we got the admin staff, and then
we got the paralegal staff. And
then we've got sort of the
finance staff. And then we've
got these amazing lawyers, all
of whom I pretty much trained.
So because I was a nurse, and I
came from a medical, you know,
it's different in the medical
world, like you graduate from
medical school, and then you
become a intern, and then you
become a resident, and then you
launch. And I noticed when I was
young lawyer, there was no
internship and there was no
residency and it was kind of
scary, right? When you got out
and you were sort of thrown out
there. And I had all male, you
know, I worked, let's call them
the bad boys, I work for the bad
boys. And they weren't very
sympathetic to the plight of
the, you know, baby lawyer. And
so I sort of committed myself
that all of the lawyers would
come into our group are going to
be is pretty much sitting next
to me for about a year. And so
we really, really, really mentor
and train our new lawyers who
aren't always young, because,
you know, people coming out of
law school and all different
ages. But um, so I think that's
something I've noticed, you
know, sort of I do family law.
And I've noticed, you know, that
a lot of the newer lawyers don't
get the kind of mentoring and
training that they need. And
it's, well, it's an order of
business. First of all, it's
super scary, because you're
throwing somebody out there
doesn't know what they're doing.
But more importantly, you know,
for our clients, we want to make
sure that they get the very best
possible representation that
they can get. And by having
lawyers who have been heavily
mentored and trained, and then
we're all the time working as a
team for that very reason. So I
think, anyway, that's kind of
how I've grown it is we take one
or two, sort of new lawyers at a
time and train them up really
intensely.
Davina Frederick: I have a whole
lot of questions about this. So
I think this is fantastic that
you said that because I, I coach
women law firm owners and
growing their business, and one
of the big challenges they're
having is they're having hiring
challenges, but they're also
feeling like, you know, I invest
in the training of this person,
and then they, they leave. And I
think one of the challenges that
people have is maybe they're not
spending enough time training
and training closely enough and
working closely enough with them
to develop that relationship. So
they think they're training by
saying, here's how we do things
now go to it. And maybe there
maybe that's why they're losing
people. But have you had the
experience where you invest a
lot in training someone and then
they've left you shortly after
you they kind of pass their
their training period to go work
someplace else? And how do you
handle that?
Unknown: Well, only Yeah, we've
we've had people with this
family a lot, right? So either
you love it or you hate it. And
so it's not, you know, it's not
unusual for us to get somebody
in there who thinks they're
super enthusiastic and they
always want to be family. Oh
boy. They're, and then they're
dealing with people who are
falling apart and, you know,
losing their home and their
children. And it's really
emotional. And just circling
back to this nurse thing,
because I was a nurse before I
was a lawyer, I'm pretty
comfortable with people in
crisis, because that's pretty
much I was a labor and delivery
nurse. So you're dealing with
women in crisis every single
day. So I'm very comfortable
with that. And I'm pretty good
at mentoring, you know, my team
of how to be comfortable with
people who have a really hugely
emotional state, but it's not
for everybody. So I would say
that of the people that have
sort of come and gone, I don't,
I can't think of one who's gone
to another family law firm. I
can, you know, we've had some
that have just said, I'm gonna
go to estate planning, or I'm
gonna go be commercial litigate
like, they just want out of the
crazy emotional part of it. But
so yeah, they kind of figure
that out. And it becomes kind of
clear as you're going along,
like, they're, they're not, you
know, really related to the
clients as well and stuff. So,
yeah, we invest a lot in our
people. But that's kind of part
of the business model. Because I
figure a certain number of
people, you're gonna get in
there, they're not all going to
stay with the ones who it
clicks. And they find that
they're in the right place for
them. We've never had any of
those leads that I can when
moved to Texas. But other than
that, no.
Davina Frederick: Yeah, see
that? That is really interesting
that you said that, because I do
think that's where a lot of law
firm owners who struggle to grow
because they struggle to hire
people is this feeling of well,
I hire this person, they didn't
work out. And now I resent it,
because I spent all this money
and they left. And so they
struggle to hire sort of the
next person. How did you kind of
get over that? Because I know
nursing is totally different
from being a lawyer and owning
your own law firm. So how did
you sort of get over that in the
beginning, to give yourself
permission to hire and grow your
team?
Unknown: First of all, I would
say nursing and lawyering isn't
all that different. Which sounds
weird. But because I'm a law
that I practice in nursing, you
learn about how to make
decisions quickly, you'll learn
how to triage things, you learn
how to deal with high emotions,
you learn how to, it's a really,
it's a thought process, it's a
way of thinking of, you know,
let's go and here's a situation,
what do we have to do, it's not
all that different is really
good training for lawyering,
I've got to say, and in my
particular kind of learning,
just as an aside, I was in a
labor and delivery nurse. And
that's a time when a woman comes
in to you and they're like
scared and out of control, and
they don't know what's going on,
and you're trying to help them
stay calm and go through this
delivery process. Not too
dissimilar from what happens in
family law, people come in full
circle, they don't know what's
going on, they're terrified, and
you're like calming them down
and getting them through a
process. When you're in labor
and delivery, you know, at the
end of it, you're gonna have a
baby, right? And so you can kind
of hold it together. in family
law, what they don't know is
that they're gonna have this
great new life that I can see,
because I've seen it so often.
They don't always see that. So
I'm sort of midwifing or doula
adding a new life for a person.
So the nursing in the family
law, and the nursing in the law
kind of does, oddly enough, go
together. But back to your
question about how it works for
business is, I think you have to
this sounds kind of flaky, but
you kind of have to love people
up because they're scared that
new lawyers are scared, they
don't know. You know, it's scary
when you get it, because we all
know, they don't teach you
anything in law school that
really has anything to do with
practicing law, right? So you're
coming out, and you're into a
situation where you really want
to do a good job, and you really
want to be proud of your work.
But you need someone to really
lift you up and to make you feel
like you matter. And you're
important, and you have a
contribution to make. And so if
you build a relationship with
your team in a way that they
know that you're investing in
them, because you know, they
know that I want them to be a
great lawyer, and they know that
I have a lot to teach them. And
then they know that if they
stick with me and us that we're
going to continue to invest in
them. So it's not like you
invest in them for three months,
and then send them out and say,
Okay, once you to Bill 160 hours
a month, and you're on your own,
and you know, if your kid gets
sick, you can't, you know, go to
the doctor, and you know, I'm on
some of these Facebook pages
with the women lawyers, I don't
remember what they're all
called. But some of those
places, they're awful like your
kid is sick, and you can't go
take care of your sick kid in
the hospital because some
partner wants you to be you
know, arguing a motion, which
anyway, so we have a more family
friendly operation. And I think
that's part of why people stick
around.
Davina Frederick: I going back
to when you started your firm.
And you were you Did you start
it as a solo. Had you you'd
already been practicing a while
in another area.
Unknown: Well, I started off as
a medical malpractice lawyer,
which is how the book ended up
happening. And then I tend like,
you can tell by reading this
book, right? I hit insurance
companies that I hated dealing
with the insurance adjusters and
it just there was like, me and
people against sort of big
business over here and so yeah,
I kind of like family law
because it's me and people
versus someone else in people.
And there's a way to negotiate a
deal between people. So I left
med mal. And I started my own
med mal firm. And then I sort of
gradually took on family law for
just because I had a friend who
said, you should try family law.
And I thought he was crazy. And
I did, and I liked it. So I
started off with one partner,
and then she left and then I was
on my own for a while, and then
with a paralegal, and then just
kind of grew from there.
Davina Frederick: So how did
you? Did you have kind of going
back to what I was asking
before? Did you have any sort of
trepidation around hiring other
lawyers? or expanding? Did you
have situations where people you
hired people, and then they left
and then you're like, oh, my
gosh, I can't do this, or I'm
gonna do this, or did it always
sort of go smoothly for you?
And, and it was not anything you
had any sort of fear around
hiring other lawyers.
Unknown: Never had any fear
around it, because the work was
always there. My it was always
they used to laugh at me, you
know, the new lawyers back when
I was first starting, because
the my first who became my
partner, and just recently
joined the bench. And so she
just left her name's Monica
Carey. When she came, it was
like, Well, why don't you come
tomorrow, and just sit over
there. And I'll give you some
work. And we'll see how it goes.
And then the end of the day, she
did all stuff. And oh, we should
come back tomorrow. And let's
see how it goes. And it sort of
became this, she was just when
she would laugh. She had just
like, and then someone else, you
know. And then a few years
later, someone else showed up.
And I can't quite remember, we
just got busy. And we sort of
hired someone on a contract. And
I said, let's just see how it
goes. And if you're here, and
there's work. And so it was
always this very organic, it was
very like, and I wasn't probably
smart enough to like have a
business plan or any, it was
more like a vision, like I
wanted to build an organization
where the people felt
appreciated, because I'd been in
one of those law firms where it
wasn't that way, right? So I
knew what I didn't want. And so
I just wanted to build this
organization where people would
feel appreciated and coached and
mentored. And it just sort of
attracted people. So it was very
everything that a business
person and an MBA my brother's
an MBA, and it's like you're
doing this all wrong. And I'm
like,
Davina Frederick: well, and
obviously you, you didn't know
what you were doing, because
here you are, you know, quarter
of a century later, right? In
the novel, so the novel is
called the complication. And it
is a kind of female attorney,
heroine of the protagonist in
the book. And she, I'm not going
to give spoilers for the whole
book, but I'll just say that she
winds up leaving where she is in
starting her own law firm. And
she's having this conversation
with her mother, about starting
her own law firm. Can I do it?
Should I do it? You know, for
this particular reason. And I
thought it was very interesting,
as somebody who works with
women, law firm owners as
they're starting and growing and
expanding their law firm to get
to a million dollars, the
conversations, the fears that
are that she's expressing in the
book, are a lot of the fears and
conversations that I have with a
lot of women lawyers. And I, of
course, when I was reading, I
was like, I have to ask her, was
this kind of a reflection of
what your thought process when
you were thinking about starting
your own? Firm? You know, going
from med mal, then to starting
your own med mal firm? Did you
kind of go through this process,
in your own mind? Some of the
things that you discussed in the
book?
Unknown: That's a really funny
question. I never thought about
that. It's probably what I
should have thought about. You
know, I don't think I was just
like, when I started, it was day
to day. And I had just had, I'm
sort of I'm a, I subscribe to
this crazy, or woowoo theory of
make a vision, and it'll happen.
So I would every day say what I
wanted to happen and what I saw
happening and where I wanted to
go, and I was very visionary
about it all. But I didn't
really attend to the details. It
just I just trusted that they
were somehow going to work out
and they really did. So you know
that whole? I know, if you read
books, like you know the secret
or the answer,
Davina Frederick: the attraction
or the law of attraction,
Unknown: totally, I'm here to
say, I've built a very, very
successful business following.
Like, I used to read those books
every night. Like, we're
Napoleon Hill, or John Assaraf.
Like, I didn't do any of the
slides. I'm saying my MBA
brother, I didn't do the
business plan in the budgeting
and I'm like, come on over,
we'll see if there's any work.
You know, clients are going to
pay if they don't pay, I'm going
to let go of them and not going
to worry about I'm not going to
chase around people that aren't
paying and I'm going to assume
that the right people are going
to show up at the right and then
they do so I know it sounds kind
of weird, but it works for me.
Davina Frederick: That's good,
good. I actually am the same in
that I I read a lot of that and
sort of and when I teach I'm
teaching a lot of times about
log traction, I'm teaching a
hiring workshop right now. And
we started out the first session
was about clearing negative
energy around hiring, because a
lot of people have had bad
experiences. And I said, we have
to shift this energy, the first
step is we have to shift the
energy around hiring, you have
to stop telling the same stories
about these bad things that went
wrong, that time you hired
somebody, and they quit
whatever, you have to kind of
folk shift your focus, let's
clean all that negative energy
up, let's cut it, let's release
it. And then let's shift into
the kind of energy that we want
to have about this. So what can
we say? That will lighten up
these things? How can we reframe
these stories and, and talk
about them in different ways. So
I totally agree with you on Law
of Attraction. It's one of those
things where it believes in you
whether you believe in it or
not, you know, what we put out
there is, is what we
Unknown: want. And if you spend
all your time ruminating on the
fires that didn't work out, or
the what you're just talking
about, I have these bad ideas
about maybe about fires that
didn't work. If you're putting
all your attention on that, what
are you going to get, you're
going to get more people like
that. So let it go. Really think
about I mean, and we do this,
even in our we have a month or
weekly huddle. And if it feels
like we're not getting the
clients the quality, I'll just
go around the zoom, now it's on
the Zoom, you know, you know,
there's like 25 of us on this.
And I'm like, tell me the
qualities of the clients that
you want. Tell me your favorite
client, tell me what you love
about him or her? And what kind
of qualities are we looking to
attract, and we'll go around 25
people, and everybody will say,
you know, so you just want to
get the energy going in the
direction of the kind of clients
you want. And you know, the kind
of work that you want. And if
we're looking to hire somebody,
say, well do the 25 people in
the huddle, and we'll say we
want somebody who's smart, and
somebody who's you know, family
focused, and somebody who's a
good team member will go through
all the qualities kind of like
writing your ad your Yeah, you
put on indeed or something. But
everybody in the firm will
pardon right down to the
everybody like receptionist in
the business manager. And we'll
talk about the qualities we're
looking for in our new lawyer.
And then we'll create an ad that
goes on wherever they put those
ads, I think indeed or
something. And, and then people
respond to it. Because it's not
a typical, we're looking for
somebody who's got three years
of experience and and write a
brief and you know, can build
some number of hours. It's like
we want somebody who's got a
good, you know, prioritizes
their family and we want
somebody who, you know, wants to
be on a team and our ads don't
look like the kind of ad you'd
see for a law
Davina Frederick: firm. It's so
interesting. Yeah. Because
that's, I'm going through this
five day challenge right now.
And we're about to jump into
sort of the magnetic funnel
piece of it, which is how do you
set up? How do you write your
ads? And how do you pretty put
them? And what else do you do,
because so many people are
challenged with the idea of,
they're struggling to get people
to even apply for jobs. And when
they do, they're not a good fit,
and all of that and, and so I
kind of came up with this
presentation how to hire when no
one wants to work. And the idea
is that, you know that we really
have to change our energy and
thoughts around it. And we also
may have to do things a little
differently than we normally do.
We can't just get away with
writing down the ad, like what
you're talking about, I need
somebody with X years of
experience, bla bla bla and
putting that out there, that
there is an attraction piece of
it, that we need to be putting
out there and saying, This is
really who we're looking for.
And so for us a lot of that
revolves around core values. So
what do we value? So a lot of
what you're talking about with
your group is kind of what is it
that we really value? What is it
we're really looking for here?
Not just, you know, the
demographics, but like the
psychographics? And what core
values do they have that they
need to align with to fit in
here? Right. So I love that you
shared that. And I also I like
it that this is kind of
developed organically and with a
little bit of Woo, because
that's wonderful, you know, have
you always been that way? Or is
this something that somewhere
along the line, somebody said,
you know, kind of threw this
idea out at you and, and you
were like, oh, I need to change
the way I think something you
were I was kind of
Unknown: you know, I I'm old so
I grew up in the sort of, you
know, like the when I was sort
of just going to college, I
started getting into sort of
personal growth stuff, which is
a little bit sounds, you know,
weird now, but I learned really
early on that you know, you kind
of put out there what you want
and figure out a way to make it
happen and you start small
because like sometimes it's just
you want I don't know something
simple like to pass a test or to
you know, get a new car or your
you know, something easy and
then you sort of grow over time
and then it's like build a law
firm or build this nonprofit
like I don't know how to build I
don't know anything about
business. I don't know anything
about building a law firm like
if you were gonna say go teach
build a law firm I'd like you
know, go put it out there what
you want and it'll all happen in
there. And it's funny because I
have a friend and he's a teacher
Professor something at Seattle
University Law School and he
teaches a class on how to How to
Build how to have a law firm are
in like the business part of it.
And that the last class of the
year, he invites me and a couple
of other guys who come and talk
about how it's really like to
have a law firm, and they're the
one guy is all you got to have a
spreadsheet, you got to have a
budget, and you got to be it's
all fear based, it's all like,
and if it doesn't work, then
this is going to be a crisis and
don't hire anybody because they
might not be trustworthy. And
then I'm like, No, you gotta
have a vision. Sort of, like,
Davina Frederick: It's your show
with, like, daisies around your
head going, Oh, you just got to
be at peace with yourself.
Unknown: I do people. Yeah,
Davina Frederick: I will, I do
think, you know, you definitely
have built this law firm sort of
playing on your strengths,
because you know, that you so
it's a Know thyself, you know,
you're not the person who's
going to be into spreadsheets.
So but you can bring who you are
to it and create the kind of law
firm that you wanted, and you
desire, based around your
strengths, you know, because you
are somebody who apparently
loves people and loves to help
people like in crisis. And so
that's, that's not everybody's
like, though there are a lot of
people out there who aren't like
that they're not good at a
crisis, my best friend is a
labor and delivery nurse, and a
sense of, you know, from her
what that's like, and I could
have just like, No, I could
never do that, but it just would
not be me. But she is so you
know, just calm in a crisis, and
has that sort of, you know,
personality, and loves it and
loves the whole process of
helping me give birth and the
new life and all that kind of
thing. And, you know, we we have
to, to, all we can do is really
go with our strengths. And I
think people who sort of tried
to swim against that, and become
something they are not, are the
ones who really sort of struggle
with that, because there are
always people out there who can
help you figure out the
spreadsheets, right? And
Unknown: that's, like, I would
say, another thing that I've
seen a lot of people is trying
to start a business like, oh, I
don't want to, you know, I'm
gonna save money, I'm not gonna
hire a bookkeeper and do it
myself. And I'm like, Are you
crazy, like, just pay people and
even borrow money, like get a
loan and pay a bookkeeper and
you can like, you're gonna
succeed based on being really,
really good at your craft, I'm
not going to succeed, by
figuring out how to make an
Excel spreadsheet of, you know,
my rent and my malpractice
insurance and not like, that's
not, that's not a good use of my
time. And there's really smart
people who are very delighted
and happy to do the stuff that I
can't stand doing. And they want
to, you know, like you're
looking, you're not trying to
hire people like you, you're
trying to hire people, like, who
can do the things that you can't
do. And don't be afraid to hire
him. Because once you do that,
you're freed up to do what's
really good. And then the people
who are watching this, if you're
all lawyers, you're probably
really good at lawyering. And
that's why you want to have a
firm because you're really,
really good at it. And you want
to be able to share that with
your potential clients. So don't
be this my advice, like don't be
spending your time trying to
figure out how to open bank, we
got open a bank account, but how
to do books and how to manage
payroll and pay your taxes.
Davina Frederick: I agree. I
agree. It's interesting, because
you said borrow money. And I
think that we don't talk about
this enough. People who are
starting their firm. So you
know, a lot of people Bootstrap.
To start their firms are many
people who say I want a law
firm. And they bootstrapping,
there are people who get sort of
forced into opening their law
firm, because they can't find
the job they want. And they
Bootstrap and have because we've
been taught in our society, that
debt is bad. Many consumer debt,
credit card debt debt is bad.
Oftentimes, there is a
reluctance. And I find this a
lot with women, having worked
with men and women, that women
are reluctant, oftentimes to
invest in their business,
because somehow they feel that
that's that they don't, I don't
know, have a right to do that
they're taking away from their
family to do that, or they're
not supposed to borrow money.
What has been your experience?
What are your thoughts on that
in terms of borrowing money to
grow your business?
Unknown: Well, let's back up a
couple of steps and talk about
what money is, money is just
energy, and money circulates.
And the whole purpose of to me
of money is to take it in and
let it go. And so debt is just
debts as part of the
circulation, like you're taking
money from this place, and
you're putting it over here, and
then people are gonna pay you
and it's if you think of it,
like take off all the charge of
money being this important thing
that really matters a lot. And
just think of it as energy. So,
if I need money, I'm gonna
borrow it because it feeds my
need to back to being this
really you know, I'm gonna say
I'm great lawyer, but you're
good. You know, you want to do
your craft. In order to do your
craft, you're going to have to
circulate the money around
circulate the energy and don't
be afraid to give it away. Don't
be afraid to pay people with a
don't be afraid to borrow it
because when you borrow it, then
it just stimulates because it's
for a purpose. You're not
borrowing money to like, go on a
trip to Hawaii or something,
you're borrowing money to invest
in yourself, because you believe
in yourself. So and once you
start doing your very best work,
because you've got the money or
the you know the little bit of
the energy that you need to be
able to do your work, then
people start paying you because
you this sort of is over here
saying, it's just gotta be paid
back, then that stimulates the
people that are paying you, and
then you've got to pay other
people. But I think a lot of
people think of money, and I
think we're always this way,
like money is some scary thing
that has, you know, it's really,
it's really not that scary. It's
just something that moves around
the tool. It's a resource, a
tool. Yeah, yeah. And you don't
be afraid of it just you know,
you, if somebody doesn't pay,
you let it go, because there's
someone else that will pay you.
But if you focus all your time
on this person will pay or if
you take debt, and you're afraid
you can't pay it back and all
your energy is going, I'm afraid
I can't pay my debt back, then
guess what you're not going to
get, it's not going to start
coming in over here, because
this
Davina Frederick: is a block.
Right? Right. So you need to
borrow it knowing that
everything's going to work out,
right. I think of it in terms of
expanded capacity, so you, you
to achieve wealth, or achieve
the law firm that you want to
achieve, or whatever great
accomplishment, you have to
expand your capacity for it.
Like your mental and emotional
capacity for it, I need to be
able to hold this, you know,
this vision that I have, and we
grow into it, sometimes we grow
into that capacity, but then
that also is going to help us
expand the resource capacity
that we need. Right so that your
time that money is resource,
people are resource. So all of
these time is a resource, all of
these resources that we have,
we're wanting to grow our
resources, because people with
more resources have more
options, right? So there's an
expansion of your mind, though,
that has to happen to be able to
hold these vast resources
because you if you are mentally
there, like you said, you're
going to be going, oh my god, I
can't pay this debt back or Oh,
my God, I can't hire somebody
because I'm scared they're going
to be I'm going to make a
mistake and hire the wrong
person. And then we all do,
right. So all of that is about
expanding your mind and saying,
I can do this, if if they can do
it. I can do it. Other people
can do it, I can do it. I'm
watching I'm looking, you know,
what if what if What else is
possible? Those kinds of things,
right. So I love that sort of
you and I are on the same page
with that philosophy. I love it.
I want to before we run out of
time, I want to talk about your
civil survival project. And
because that's something else,
too, that was a that started out
small, and then grew, the vision
expanded, and it became its own
sort of thing, and a very
important thing for a lot of
people's lives. So why don't you
tell us about it, how it started
out what it is, how it started
out, and where it ended up?
Unknown: Well, so long time ago,
I was sort of, in a point in my
career where I thought it was
time for me to think a little
bit more about giving back. And
so I ended up writing this
series of books that taught sort
of basic legal survival skills
to marginalize people who were,
you know, just ordinary people
who didn't have access to
lawyers, and which is still kind
of out there. But anyway, I
ended up teaching. So it's like
how to rent an apartment and how
to be a good employee and
childhood divorce and criminal
law. And so I ended up just
through circumstances, teaching
it to a group of people that had
just come out of prison. And
they were like, taking notes
since like, we were talking
about how to rent an apartment
and how to be a good at it was
like employment law and landlord
tenant law, and but how to do
this, and they would, you know,
take all these notes. And then
finally, one, I was like, This
is so helpful. And thank you so
much for helping us with this.
There's just one problem. And I
said, What's that? And they
said, we can't get a job. And we
can't get a place to live
because we're all felons. And I
was like, what? Because I'm the
privileged white lady, like, I
didn't know that. I'm like, What
are you talking about? And
they're like, Well, you know,
when we go to rent an apartment,
or apply for a job, they asked
us, you know, your criminal
background record, and then we
have to say that and then we
can't get a job. And I'm like,
this is messed up. And then they
started to tell me these
unbelievably heart wrenching
stories about one guy, this big
black guy was sitting in my
office, telling me the scariest
day he ever had, he was a gang
member, and he was in prison for
15 years. And he said, The
scariest night I ever had was
the day I got out of prison,
because I didn't know what to
do. Like I was just thrown out,
you know, with a bus pass and
$20. And I had no place to go.
And now I've tried to find a job
and I can't find a job anyway.
So after listening to all these
stories and stuff, I'm like,
Well, you know, these are laws
that are holding you back. And
I'm a lawyer. And I know that we
can change laws, but there's no
way that this particular
demographic of people could
necessarily get access to the
policymakers. And so I came up
with this idea that after I got
to know all these new friends
and heard their very sad stories
of you know how scared they were
and how traumatized they were,
first of all, being in prison,
first of all, they're
traumatized before they got to
prison, which is what led them
to whatever you know, behavior
they did that got them in prison
and then they're out here
traumatized and I'm like, you
know, if our legislators could
hear directly the story Isn't
these new friends of mine, they
would not want the laws to be so
oppressive to them. So I got
this idea that we should put
together workshops where I would
bring in formerly incarcerated
people. And we talked about how
to just had a lobby really how
to change laws, like how to
change policy, we did, you know,
how does a bill become a law we
did, we learned about
organizing, we learned about,
you know, civil rights and
marriage equality. And I was
trying to teach them about how
the power of organizing in our
country, there's 100 million
people, one out of four people
in our country has a criminal,
something on their record that
impairs their ability to get
housing and jobs, which is an
astonishing, that is, I have no
idea. So I put together this
workshop, and the first workshop
was 75 people that just come out
of prison at some point in their
life. And then we learned all
about how to change policy. And
then in the afternoon, we had
legislators come in. And then we
had our people practice telling
their stories to the
legislators. And invariably,
They'd cry and go, Oh, my God, I
had no idea. And so it just sort
of grew and became it became
this huge community of people
that I would never have known
before, who were just passionate
about wanting to make their
lives better, because they made
a mistake, they're home. And
they just want to get a job and
a place to live and be a you
know, participate member of the
community. So that started to
grow. And then there's this
young woman named Tara Simmons,
who was a law student when I
first met her, and she was
formerly incarcerated. And oddly
enough, she's also a nurse. So
we have a lot in common. She
went to prison, she came out,
she went to law school, and she
wanted to sort of run, you know,
get involved in this
organization. So long story
short, I mentored her, and
somewhere along the line after a
couple of years, and then talk
about money, I paid all these
people salary, like I started
this thing. And here's what I
learned. I learned that, you
know, for us privileged white
ladies, if someone says, Hey,
can you volunteer and do
something we say, Sure, well,
this demographic, you say, can
you volunteer, and we're gonna
go to the legislature, they're
like, well, who's gonna pay for
my gas? And what if we have to
get lunch and, you know, I can't
take time off work. And so they
can't, they need to be paid for
stuff. So I just started paying
them. And then it started
becoming an organization. So I
hired a couple of people full
time to work for the
organization that didn't even it
wasn't a, I didn't even smart
enough to make it into a
nonprofit, I just thought it
because I was paying because I'm
like, this is important work. So
I'm paying people full time
salaries, to go and organize
this group of people that needed
help with policy and stuff. And
ultimately, it became really
clear to me that it really
wasn't my work to do because it
needs to be run by people who
are impacted by the criminal
legal system. And so I turned it
over pretty quickly to Tara. And
now it's run. And I'm the
president of the board now, but
it's run completely by people,
almost everybody in leadership
there is formerly incarcerated,
and they mentor each other's
couple of lawyers and stuff who
aren't formerly incarcerated,
but it's a group of people that
are and they're running it now
and, and talk about money and
energy. It's like, that didn't
make any sense. You know, my NBA
brother was like, What the hell
are you what are you doing?
You're like paying people,
there's no income coming in.
This is not a for profit, let
no, turn it into a nonprofit
ultimately. But anyway, the
point is that there's a whole
demographic of people that are
just like, women coming out of
prison, listen, as they come out
of prison, and they're reunited
with their children. And then
they can't volunteer at their
kids school. So they can't bring
cupcakes to their second graders
birthday party at school. And if
ever there was a child who needs
their mother to be supporting
them in their school
environment, it's a kid whose
mother has been taken away from
them and put in the criminal
system. And then they come out.
And the schools have all these
rules and about, the mothers
can't come in, they can't. My
friend, Tara Simmons, who is now
the executive director of civil
survival. She is a lawyer, and
she just got elected to our
state legislature. She's
representative Simmons, now. She
can't volunteer in her kids High
School.
Davina Frederick: Wow, that
insane. That is. So
Unknown: there's all of these.
So anyway, to make long story
short, they started changing
laws, they've changed like five
or six changed all kinds of laws
about how fines are imposed on
people have been in prison, they
got civil survival worked with
another couple of organizations
to get the right to vote for
formerly incarcerated people in
our state. Like they're changing
the laws and the rules around
you know how to make life better
for people who are coming out of
prison. And this wasn't anything
that was even remotely
interested in, I knew nothing
about this. It's just sort of
sort of circumstantial, that I
ended up teaching this to this
group of people. But now, let's
think about that. This morning.
I've got so many friends who've
been in prison, I got friends
who have been in prison for
murder and for all kinds of
drugs and, and they're all you
know, trying to make their lead
a lot of them come out and
really want to work with the
youth in the community. So
there's sort of a ripple effect
because they come out and we
help them get a lot of their
rights back and get their fines
canceled and free them up so
that they can live their best
life. And now they're running
organizations for youth all
Cross sort of the Seattle area,
and it's really, really pretty
inspiring.
Davina Frederick: Wow. And it's
interesting because you, you
were practicing med mal, and
then you became a family lawyer.
And then really, you got into
this area that would have been a
it seemed like a natural fit for
somebody who's in defense for
criminal defense work. No,
nothing. I've got sort of, from
your own experience, and what
inspired you to sort of write
the books to begin with? I mean,
was there something you know, it
was the West End for
Unknown: criminal I was more
like, you know, what it was like
being a lawyer and realize how
little access people had to
like, we have the way our
society is set up as we've got
the rules of the game, right.
And nobody knows the rules of
the game. So we've got this like
playing Monopoly, but nobody
tells you the rules, because
regular average Joe citizen
doesn't know the rules. But if
you break one of the rules, you
find out very quickly that you
have broken a rule, whether
it's, you know, building a fence
on your neighbor's property, or
not paying an employee or you
know, whatever you've done
wrong, they're going to come
right down on you. But if we
don't tell people what the rules
are, it's kind of not fair to
say, you know, we have a game
and it's, you know, the goal is
life, liberty and the pursuit of
happiness are not going to tell
you any of the rules until you
break them. And then oh, we're
going to charge you three or
$400 an hour to talk to someone
about how to fix what you did
that you didn't know that you
shouldn't have done. And I think
everybody's a lawyer probably
feels that way on some level,
like, people come in, and you're
like you did what? And then you
think for a moment? How would
you not know?
Davina Frederick: Yeah, that was
thing for me. That was that I've
always said to people. I'm so
grateful for my law school
education, because I didn't know
what I didn't know. You don't
understand, like, all the
different levels of governance
and rules that go on, because
it's not just, it's not just our
laws in the justice system. It's
also all these administrative
rules or agencies and laws of
rules and things like that, that
we have set up. And other people
have set up all around us and
for us, and against us and all
of those things, right? So
right, and you don't realize
until you start like you buy
property, and then you're paying
property taxes, and then you've
got your work, and then you got
to pay income tax. And there's
all of these things that you
don't you don't realize how
those are laws, even though
they're not in the justice
system. Right. And so it really,
you know, I always say, I mean,
like, I think a legal education
is never wasted, because it just
opened your eyes, even if you
don't go practice as an
attorney, it just opened your
eyes to the complexities that
our society has developed over
time, and how it impacts people
in different ways. You know, so
Unknown: you teach anybody about
them, right? So no,
Davina Frederick: need to go to
law school, you don't learn
about them. Right?
Unknown: You can afford to pay
someone for two bucks an hour to
tell you what a stupid thing you
just did. So
Davina Frederick: Well, I
graduated, I didn't graduate
from law school till I was 14.
So like the first half of my
life, I had no I was like,
happy, you know, whatever in the
marketing world thinking I
wasn't happy. And then I was
like, no, no, you have no idea.
When I went through law school.
You're you recently won an
award, you won an award so
recently that between the time
we scheduled this, and today,
you've won this award. So why
don't you tell us about the
award? What is it it's a I don't
remember the name of it, because
it's long. To tell us the name.
I've
Unknown: never heard of that
before. Either. It makes you
feel any better. It's called the
Sally's Sally piece, Sally
savage Award for Leadership and
philanthropy from the Washington
State Bar Association. So they
gave me this award because they
work in civil survival. And I, I
just feel like for them to
acknowledge that the people that
civil survival serves are worthy
of like, it's not me, right?
It's like, there's a whole
demographic as live ripple
effect. There's a whole
demographic of people that have
been really forgotten by our
society and like, who wants to
really care about somebody who's
been in prison? Really,
honestly. So I think it was
really, I was very touched that
they realized that this
particular demographic of people
can really be lifted up and
really be their lives can be
made so much better. Just by
changing some policies, and you
know, and now we're doing
actually, terrorists now got a
legal clinic going there. So we
do expungements and we do
different vacating records and
you know, things to clean up
people's record, because what I
didn't know, here's a statistic
people who are out of prison for
seven years are no more likely
to commit a crime than anybody
else. Yet. We, you know, I've
got friends been out of prison
for 20 years and they still have
to, they can't get an apartment.
I have a friend who is a
professor of law at Georgetown,
who did 12 years in prison for
armed bank robbery came out,
went to law school, clerked for
Federal Court judge is now a
professor of law at Georgetown,
and he couldn't rent an
apartment in DC because he had a
criminal record. And keep it
out. I don't know how long but
the point is, and one of my
friends told me, she goes, when
the judge sentenced me, he
sentenced me. He didn't
sentenced me to a lifetime of
unemployment and homelessness, I
did my time. I, you know, went
to prison, and I made amends for
what I did wrong, and it
doesn't, it's not fair that then
once you're out the rest of your
life, you can't get a job, you
can't get a place to live, you
can't volunteer in school, you
can't. There's a million jobs
like hair salon and an
astonishing number of jobs that
you can't get if you've ever
been in prison. So civil
survival is going about cleaning
up all of those things that hold
people back.
Davina Frederick: Right, right.
I think what I think what's so
wonderful is that you, you've
identified to how there's a
whole demographic that doesn't
have an app doesn't exist, the
powerlessness not having access
to policymakers, and awareness,
creating awareness for
policymakers, lawmakers, you
know what I mean?
Unknown: You know, what
happened, there hypotheses
worked. So I had this idea that
if my, my people, you know, my,
my friends who've been in prison
really got to know their policy
makers, like, my people now know
their legislator to the point
where when they see her in
Safeway, they give a hug, and
they, you know, how are you, you
know, and, Christina, and what
about that bill that you're
working on? And can we have
lunch tomorrow. And so there's
this whole group of people that
have spent time in prison who
are now on a first name basis
with their mayor with their city
council, one of my friends who's
was in prison just got elected
to the cameras, the city or
county council over in a small
town, outside of Seattle. And
they built relationships to the
point where the legislators are
calling them on their cell
phone, like we're looking at a
bill right now. And we want to
know how this is going to impact
your community. So it totally
works. But how did they in their
wildest because the first one
who started like, I never
thought I would talk to a state
senator. And I'm like, she's
your neighbor, like, she wants
to help you. And so they started
to build relationships. And then
on other friends on us, you
know,
Davina Frederick: that can be
replicated in all county state.
Unknown: Yeah, it's totally not
that hard. And there's 100
million people who fall into
this category. So if I had a
magic wand and all the money in
the world, you know, you could
you can replicate this.
Davina Frederick: Well, this is
where your this is where your
law of attraction and
manifestation is going to come
into, you're put it out there,
put it out there, and and the
more people that can put the
energy around that, the more
powerful it will be. Before we
wrap up today, I do I do want to
I've mentioned your book a
couple times, I would love for
you to tell us kind of like you
mentioned, you told me before we
started but I'd like you to
share with everybody sort of how
you wound up writing the novel,
because I know, I know another a
number of women law firm owners
who have also written novels.
And but I'm an avid reader, and
I'm also a writer, but writing a
novel is just a whole different
thing for me. So I'm curious as
to what how did that come about?
What made you decide to do that
Unknown: was a malpractice
lawyer. And I, once it's sort of
like, same thing, like what you
didn't know, you didn't know, I
didn't realize how messed up it
is about how we value people's
lives and the legal system. So
if you're an older person, and
you die, when I was malpractice
lawyer and represent an older
person, they're like, well, they
don't have a job. Now I made
general damages. And you know,
they don't have any, you know,
they died and they're not worth
very much. And I'm like, that is
so messed up. Like, I come from
the medical world, wherever you
live, no matter who it is, you
know, you bust your ass to save
them and to bring them, you
know, give them the best that
you can give them in the legal
system. It's like, well, if
you're like a 40 year old tech
worker, you're worth more than a
80 year old grandpa or
something. So that made me
crazy. And I wanted to like,
write articles about it. And
then I thought, nobody's gonna
read an article about valuing
lives in the human, you know,
human lives in the justice
system. So I got this idea to
write it into a novel of
another. I got another one just
coming out in April. So the the
story in the first book is about
an older guy, and that scene and
the first scene and that book
came from rural case, by the
way, with the aorta and the
puncture and everything. Wow,
that really happened. So it
really happened, that guy died.
And then the insurance company
kept saying he's not worth
anything. And I'm like, What are
you talking like, it's bad. I
feel like it's wrong. So I
wanted to bring that to light.
So this book is about this older
guy who dies, and then the
protagonists and she was he was
a special person in her life.
And so she's struggling with how
the insurance company is trying
to devalue him. And she's trying
to figure out like, how can you
really express the value of a
person in the lives of the
people that love them? And is
that something that our system
could do doing differently? So
that was what made me want to
write it and then the second
book is about a A baby who dies,
which I know is sad. But it's
the same thing. Because when I
was doing malpractice, I did a
lot of OB cases and if a baby is
injured in a birth injury, and
then they live, then you've got
this multimillion dollar
settlement because they're gonna
have to have life care for the
rest of their life. But if
babies injured in a delivery
maximum, your friends gonna like
this book is injured and my
husband's an OBGYN. So he helped
me with this. Let's deliver if
there's an injury in a delivery
room and the baby dies. And
they're like, Well, you can have
another baby. So it's not really
that valuable. So it's the same,
the insurance companies do the
same thing. On the flip side,
you know, like an old person's
not worth anything. And so the
second book I wrote was, because
it made me crazy when I did a
lot of birth injury cases, if
the baby died, they're like,
Well, what's you there's no
damages? Like, what? What do you
want?
Davina Frederick: No damages.
Wow. So I mean, and
Unknown: that's what got me
going, but nobody wants. You had
to make it into like a mystery
to make it fun and interesting
that people would want to engage
with. So hopefully it is,
Davina Frederick: well, it
sounds like you have embarked on
kind of a new career as a
novelist. So we'll be looking
forward to those novels, you're
gonna be like the famous
novelist now where every year, a
new novel comes out. And we
anticipate every November, we're
getting a new novel from you,
right?
Unknown: That's a series. So I'm
like, we've got Camille's the
protagonist in theory. So the
second one is her with a birth
injury case. And then the third
one, which I'm writing now, of
course, now 20 years, because
it's throat these 20 years ago,
the first time and then I read
revamp them during COVID, and
publish them. But now that I've
had like, 20 years of life, the
third one is about women in
prison being reunited with their
children, and the legal issues
around that. Another thing
that's funny about this is, when
I wrote those books, the first
time I was the age of the
protagonist, and now in the age
of her mother.
Davina Frederick: Did that
happen? mother's gonna be a more
important character as we go on,
you're obviously. Right. Oh,
that's fascinating. Amanda,
thank you so much for being here
and talking with me today, time
has really flown by, and we need
to end but tell us how we can
first of all, tell us where we
can find the book to buy it for
those who have it. And also tell
us how we can connect with you.
If we want to connect with you
find out more information about
you. And the work you're doing.
Um,
Unknown: well, the books on
Amazon, but I'm kind of a
supporter of indie bookstores,
there's a website called
bookshop.org, where you can
order books and somehow they
come out of independent
bookstores as opposed to Amazon
not to say anything bad about
Amazon. But the book is called
The complication. And the second
one is called deliver them from
evil. And that I have a website
for my law firm, which is Dubois
law. dotnet. I think another URL
that I got a Facebook page
that's going to author Facebook
page, I have 3000, I'm almost
have 3000 Facebookers on my
author page, which cracks me up
because I'm not really I'm
learning Facebook as we go. But.
So that's Amanda DuBois, author,
and then I guess, and then
LinkedIn, and all the other
regular places.
Davina Frederick: Well, thanks
for sharing. We'll include those
in the show notes so that people
can just click on them and we'll
include bookshop is a bookshop.
But Doc shop.org.org
Unknown: local bookstore, but
it's kind of cool to support
independent bookstores,
honestly. So
Davina Frederick: yeah, so
thanks for being here. We'll
include those in the show notes
for people who want to reach out
and they want to read her novel.
I know all the lady lawyers are
gonna love that. And thanks
again for being here. I've had
some
Unknown: tell your friends and
nurse I want her feedback. Oh, I
Davina Frederick: will I
absolutely. She loves to read.
She She and I both love to read
a lot. So I'll definitely be
recommending that to her. All
right. Thank you. All right.
Thanks for having me.