Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
In this episode of Between the Shifts, Marc Genest and Joe Woolworth introduce a new segment called 10 in 10, answering ten common questions from families navigating youth hockey. They discuss the financial commitment of the sport, the chances of playing college or professional hockey, and why no coach or program can guarantee a player's future.
Marc shares advice on choosing the right development program, finding coaches who prioritize player growth over winning, and deciding whether travel hockey or playing away from home is the right fit. They also explore burnout, multi sport participation, the importance of passion, and the long term life lessons young athletes can gain from commitment to a team.
The conversation takes a closer look at the proposed National Development League, including concerns about costs, opportunities for elite players, and whether youth hockey is becoming too focused on families who can afford expensive programs. Marc also discusses changing junior hockey pathways and options for players pursuing NCAA Division I, Division III, ACHA, or Canadian university hockey.
Throughout the episode, the message is clear: every player's path is different. Families should focus on development, education, passion, and finding the right environment rather than chasing promises or assuming there is only one route to success.
00:00 Introducing the 10 in 10 segment
00:00 Introducing the 10 in 10 segment
01:00 Is youth hockey worth the cost?
04:00 Does your player have a chance at college or professional hockey?
06:00 Red flags when programs promise success
08:00 Does a player need AAA hockey at ages 12 to 14?
09:00 When should hockey become a priority?
12:00 How often should young players train?
15:00 Choosing a coach who prioritizes development
19:00 Learning from experienced hockey professionals
23:00 Does playing away from home help development?
28:00 Recognizing passion and commitment in young players
32:00 The life lessons of sticking with a sport
34:00 When players may decide to leave hockey
36:00 Marc's thoughts on the National Development League
43:00 How the NDL could affect U18 hockey
45:00 Understanding junior hockey pathways to college
49:00 The future of youth and junior hockey
52:00 Helping families find the right path
Creators and Guests
What is Between the Shifts — Presented by StopNStarts Hockey?
Between the Shifts is a monthly show for players, parents, coaches, and youth hockey leaders navigating the fast, confusing and often expensive world of youth hockey. Hosted by a former professional player, coach, and parent, and owner of STOPnSTARTS Hockey, Marc Genest. We carve into player development, real-life family stories, coaching culture, costs, training pathways, and everything young athletes and their communities are facing today. Whether you’re in a traditional hockey market or growing the game in the South, this podcast helps you make smarter decisions, understand your options, and avoid common pitfalls. Join us for honest conversations that empower families and fuel hockey dreams.
09 - Between The Shifts - 10 in 10
===
[00:00:00]
Marc Genest: Welcome, everybody, to Between the Shifts. Today we've got kind of a unique concept that we're just spinning off.
This has been a great start to, Stop and Start's little venture in, in helping families and players find the right paths for their hockey career. and this segment is gonna be called, 10 in 10, so after 10 podcasts we're gonna collumulate as many questions as we can. Some of the valid questions, obviously I'm trying to find some that are different.
So feel free if you do have questions that you'd like answered and, and n- not sure if you want to sign up for the for our schedule for a one-on-one meeting or for a [00:01:00] a mentor membership program just drop us a question on our socials and we'll be glad to put you in the next time we hit the 10 in 10.
So without further ado, here we'll get going. Joe is, is my sidekick for today's show. He also produces our podcast in this wonderful studio. So Joe will be asking some of the questions and I'll be answering the questions based on my opinion, my experience, and so on, so forth. So here we go.
Joe Woolworth: All right, so the first question is, seems to be the most popular one, is is it worth it? It's probably the most asked question. People often wonder whether the commitment, the expense, just is it worth it?
Marc Genest: Right. And I get that a lot. I get that a lot from a lot of different families. Like this is a commitment, but I have to say that in my conversations with soccer families, lacrosse families, um, it, it is also a commitment.
It is also a financial equi- commitment as well. I, I think the biggest issue is our, [00:02:00] our equipment is, is r- really, really gone through the roof as far as price-wise. So, um, you know what for me, I, I, I, I have three children. Two have gone through the, the trials and tribulations of youth hockey, and the expense of the travel for us obviously being in the Carolinas for us, our, our travel's really far.
We've discussed this in the past where our closest games, if you're an elite player here in Raleigh, are Nashville DC, and Florida. So, you know, whenever you've got events or, or tournaments to play we have to travel away from Raleigh. But in markets that are a little close closer-knit, like the Minnesotas, the Massachusetts, the New York a- areas where you have more competition, even Canada, Western Canada, Eastern Canada, you have more local teams that, um, you know, could fit the real mold.
I, I think for me it all boils down to conversation with your children. I mean, whether it's your daughter or your son, is it worth it? I mean, f- for me, [00:03:00] the look on their face, the conversations, the relat- relationship strengthening that we've had through the sport of hockey. How we treat hockey today for me, 100% it's worth it, and, you know, I'm, I'm thrilled to death that, you know, even my daughter that didn't play hockey is still really involved and, and passionate about hockey.
It's a topic of conversation at our dinner table. Um, it's something we discuss on, on a regular basis, and hockey's been a huge part of my life and, and thrilled that it was a huge part of their life as well. So for sure for me, it is worth it. Um, never did I sign my kids up to play youth sports with the idea that they were gonna play professional.
I just want them to have a passion, have a structure for the game, and, and learn how to play with teammates. And you know, I, I, I think when you break it down to that point, I think that's the values that the game can give back, is a good, solid work ethic, working with teammates. And, and seeing the smile on their face when they have success is just absolutely [00:04:00] incredible.
So absolutely, 100% worth it. Um, and that's just something that you, you have to have that conversation with your children about.
Joe Woolworth: All right, next question. Another common question probably for you here, 'cause it's kind of related. Does my player have a chance of playing in college or pro hockey? I was just flipping through the YouTube comments, and I saw Smash Factor Fitness basically had a similar question.
Last year, the WHL had one player in the first round that didn't come from a 40K-a-year academy program. That means that kids from 99% of households can't afford to get their sons a chance to play pro hockey. The privatization of youth hockey is breaking the game. Do you hear stuff like that a lot?
Marc Genest: Yeah, I do.
I, I hear it all the time. I, I mean, you know, whether I'm teaching my power skating class here in Raleigh, and the parents are like, "Man, what, what do you think? How do you think little Johnny's doing?" I say, "Man, he's doing great. You know, he's getting better." Look, at the end of the day, I think the reality is this, is nobody has a crystal ball.
You don't know. You don't know what the odds are. Between all of our guests on our podcast, [00:05:00] um, we've always heard that, you know, the chances are minute and small, and it's such a small percentage. But there's still a chance. I hate, hate to refer to a, a Dumb and Dumber quote, so, you know- ... one in a million. I mean, so you s- you're saying, "I got a chance?"
It's in there, isn't it? Yeah. The reality is that we don't know. And, but if you don't put the effort forward, then you'll never know. And would you rather live the rest of your life not knowing that you might have had an opportunity that you missed? Or gave it everything you have and just r- come to the realization that, look, I've, I've done all the work that I can do, and, you know, I, I just wasn't good enough.
And the reality for me n- never been cut in my youth hockey career, all the way up through junior and college. Um, but I got cut at the most significant time, and that's, you know, not making the National Hockey League. I think that, that for me is, is, is what it's all about. So, you know, does my kid have a chance?
Absolutely. So does everybody else's kid. And again, without knowing [00:06:00] and without having a crystal ball, nobody can look in the future, and there's nobody, not a scout, not a NHL coach, not a NHL general manager that can look at your 12-year-old and say, "Hey, you know, I think this kid's got a lot of potential."
You know? You, you've got so many factors. Puberty, growth skill level, right opportunity, right time, right place. There's so many factors that dictate, um, what can make it happen and what can't make it happen. But the ride is the process, and the ride is what forms you as an individual.
Joe Woolworth: Yeah, and I think it's
I'm thinking back over all the episodes. Neither you nor any of your guests, and these are big-time hockey guests, said anything along the lines of, "Oh, if you go to this program, I guarantee you're gonna get somewhere or make something." Do you think it's, kind of follow-up question, if people are making those kind of promises, is that the kind of coach/program you should stay away from?
Marc Genest: Absolutely. I think the people that are selling you a can of [00:07:00] goods and a can of promises are people that are fooling themselves into knowing what, what can be determined. I mean, I, I, I think at the end of the day, you've got generational players out there, the Wayne Gretzkys of world that scored 300 and some goals as a peewee.
Those are generational players. Those are not ... The- they don't form. Not every player in the National Hockey League is a generational player. So yeah, for me, I think you know, and that's an- another question we have down, down the road is, you know, what it is that I need to be looking at as far as who is the right fit to coach and develop my, my player.
But yeah, I have to say that, that n- none of my guests, and, and we're fully aware, and all good hockey players, um, but, but man, it's, there is no promises. There is no guarantee in life in general except death and taxes. I know it's an old, old saying, but that's the truth. I mean, there, there is no guarantee in anything.
But if you don't try, you'll never know.
Joe Woolworth: All right. We're here talking youth hockey, and the next question from the audience is, "My [00:08:00] son or daughter is 12 to 14." is it crucial that he or she plays AAA hockey for him or her to have a future in hockey?
Marc Genest: , The fast question is absolutely not.
I mean, again, right when we talk about development in players, some kids bloom really early. Some kids are super gifted early. Some kids are a little bit bigger as a squirt, in the peewee, in in first year bantam. Some kids are a little slow grower little bit l- slow learners. Maybe they got into the game a little later.
I mean, my, my oldest daughter she didn't start playing hockey till she was 10. Um, still was able to play Division III hockey, which is fantastic. So absolutely not. I don't think there is a threshold of, okay, at 12, if you're not playing AAA, or 14 yeah, your chances of making it are certainly diminished.
Absolutely not. Again, right, the continued development, the continued growth in the player, and obviously a lot of [00:09:00] genetics. The puberties, the, the, the growth, the maturity, the understanding of the game, how much they watch hockey, and how much they develop will dictate whether they have a chance or not
Joe Woolworth: All right, kind of next question here.
Very similar in, in an age question. What age should little Timmy, little Timmy, make playing hockey a priority? Is there, like, an age where if they're not serious about it by then, you should kinda let it go as a parent?
Marc Genest: You know, that's such a hot topic out there, and I, and I'm glad some parents have asked that question.
And, and I, I get that a lot as well. Like, a lot of families are like, "Man, do you do private lessons?" I was like, "Look, guys, I, I really don't do private lessons. I run my power skating through our youth hockey organization here. I do a spring and summer. Um, that's about it. And I, our spring really starts after the season's over."
Um, so, you know, it, it's a difficult question. You know, I think one of our initial guests was Aaron Bratcher with EB Athletics. And, and I think if you're doing [00:10:00] fitness with a person that's certified and is understanding of the multi-sport athlete, then I think an Aaron Bratcher can really help you develop your, your skills outside of hockey, which would allow you to be maybe a little bit more specific towards hockey.
But I do think, you know, I, I mean, look, Tom Glavine was a, a Cy Young winner at baseball. He's also a sixth rounder in, in in the NHL for the Los Angeles Kings. Deion Sanders was a multi-sport athlete. I, I, I think, again, these are generational guys, right? Tons of pitchers have pitched in in the Major Leagues and never won a Cy Young Award.
So, um, I, I think for me it all depends on, on the player. If the kid is really passionate about hockey, then I, I think you have to be, as a parent, you have to be a little bit concerned with burnout, right? Like, I, I think them having some time away from the game still creates more hunger. It still creates more desire to play when they're ready to play.
But, but I [00:11:00] think also, you know, when you turn 15 or 16, and at some point there's some skillsets that you need to work on in the summer and, and focus on the things that you need to work on. But, I mean, like Rod Brind'Amour said, I, I think every day you have to be doing something, right? Like, if you're an athlete, whether you're playing baseball or working out or shooting pucks or going to power skating, um, I, I think, I think you have to be doing something every day.
And, and I think that's the message that I'm, I'm hearing throughout all the guests and all the professionals. Um, you know, obviously I, I'm, um- very opinionated at times and, and don't mind sharing my opinions, but it doesn't mean that like it's the right opinion. So for me, I think listening to an Erin Bratcher, my, my, my kids have worked out for her since they were real young, and she does a great job incorporating their fitness and incorporating other hand-eye skills, other coordination, balance, core work that you would get from other sports so that they can focus on maybe a little [00:12:00] bit more time on the ice.
But, but I think the threshold, it, it depends on the player. Yeah. And, um, I think too much is not good enough, and not enough can be somewhat hurtful to the player as, as he gets up in age.
Joe Woolworth: Yeah, it's definitely been a recurring theme, the idea of, like, frequency. How often should they be on the ice?
How often should they be doing stuff? I kinda echoed this by one of the YouTube comments from Jonathan W. Duval who said, "So refreshing to hear," this is talking about the Rod Brind'Amour interview. "So refreshing to hear that a two-time Stanley Cup winner is a hockey parent struggling with the path for his kids, too."
Yeah. I mean, it's, it seems like it's a universal problem, and it's something you talk about a lot on this show. And this is what that question is about, which is how often should little Timmy be skating, doing skills per week in order to get him better?
Marc Genest: And there's a lot more opportunities out there. Like, there's a lot more guys offering different skill sets.
And, and again, that, that relates to a question down the road. But, [00:13:00] you know, how, how many people are doing it for the benefit of the players, and how many people are doing it for the benefit of their financial pockets, right? So how many people are taking advantage of, of young kids and guiding them in the wrong direction as far as saying, "Hey, listen, you should be doing skills three times a week," 'cause you're paying that guy 75 bucks an hour.
Like, at, at some point you have to monetize, and common sense has to set in in the sense that, look, you know, if he's skating in the corner and going around some tires and cones, how much of that could he be doing at home just by shooting pucks, you know? How much of that could he be doing going to EB Athletics and working on his core work, or working on his balance, or working on his fundamentals of hand-eye coordination, or how much of that could he benefit from doing other things?
It's not just hockey, hockey, hockey. And I, and I will say our sport does combine s- some, like very seldom do I see a, a, a hockey player that's not a good golfer or not a good athlete, not a good baseball player. Um, sorry Pats, but [00:14:00] you know, there's not very many players that are not good golfers. And I think at the end of the day, um, hockey requires a lot of various athletic skills and abilities, and certainly talent, but so does baseball, so does football.
They have their natural abilities. Wrestling. Um, every sport has its attributes and, and gains- But I think it, it has to be, it has to be managed by a parent. And I think a lot of times the things that I see, you know, whether a kid acts out or whatever, boils down to parenting. And I'm certainly not gonna make a session on or a, a podcast on parenting and, and but, but I think you have to have some common sense here, for sure.
Joe Woolworth: Yeah, and it's gotta be tough for parents to know where that line is because it seems complex. It seems like there's a lot of variables.
Marc Genest: Well, if I don't do it, what is he missing out of? Right. Like, that's the, you know, if, if, if little Johnny's not skating with so-and-so and he's coaching the team next year, how is that gonna impact our position to make the team?
And, and- Right ... I see that all the time, you [00:15:00] know? But unfortunately, politics are what they are. Um, I hate that there, those are opportunities that are out there, but, um, they are. And, um, I still wouldn't do it just on the principle. I mean, I remember my dad preventing me from playing in, in Canada. We had AA during the winter and AAA in the spring and, and early summer.
And I remember one summer my dad was like, "You know what? We're not playing hockey this summer. We're gonna take a break. We're gonna go to rent a cottage. We're gonna have some fun in the summer." And initially I was a little, I was a little ticked off and, and certainly the coach that was coaching that AAA team was really pissed.
And so the following year I ended up not playing for him and playing aged up at, at a, at a lower level. So eh, you know what? That stuff happens, and being able to adjust and w- everybody's different. And, and I think that's the most important, and I think that's where our service comes into play, is that I'm not gonna know every kid personally.
I got into this business because I've coached for so many years, and I've helped so many kids transition to different paths [00:16:00] and various paths to help them with their career. But, but I think it boils down to the individual and the player himself. And, and I think through mentorship and, and guidance, I think, um, that's where our service can be really beneficial.
Joe Woolworth: So speaking of mentorship and guidness, guidance, what should I look for? This is a question from the audience here, talking about youth hockey. What should I look for in determining a good coach for my player?
Marc Genest: Yeah. And I've gone through that process, right? I, I, fortunately, I've coached my, my kids during their youth careers and, and my daughter went to prep school.
I, I think for me, the word that I look for, and if I don't hear it right off the bat I get concerned, is development. I think for me, what I see out there today, whether it's at the junior level or prep school or ... I, I hear the word winning all the time. And what that boils down to for me is that usually the top players will play And the not-so-good players, or maybe the bottom six of your forward roster and, and the, and the [00:17:00] bottom three of your D core m- maybe won't play.
And, and I think that takes away from the development from those players. If you're not in a position to implement what you practice and have an opportunity to put that into a game situation, y- you're, you're hurting your development. You are really hurting your development. So again, we talked about, you know, the, the sh- the shiny nickel and certain prep schools that, um, warrant some of the best players in, in, in, in the country to go there.
Are they really developing those players? Or those players are so good going in anyway, they're putting a bunch of good hockey players together and, and they're winning hockey games. So for me, the word development, if you don't hear that from a coach, um, if you don't hear about his practices, if you don't hear about the f- the word fundamentals I, I think those are all key words in there that I think for me raise a red flag for, for my kids.
And, and in the junior level I see it now. My son's a, a junior player. [00:18:00] I see it all the time. And, and that is just another phase of development. And, and you know, I'm an assistant coach in, in in the NCDC with the Junior Canes here in town, and, and that's the word I use. I don't care that kids make mistakes.
We don't sit kids because they do make mistakes. We give them options on how they could remedy that mistake so it doesn't happen again. That's development, and that's what it's all about. And I tell them all the time, I said, "Look, man, I don't care how many mistakes you made. What I'd like to see is you not repeat the same mistake, and here are some options to prevent you making that same mistake."
But I think for me, development, practice plans those are, those are key words that you need to hear from a coach before you make a decision.
Joe Woolworth: Yeah, and I think one thing I noticed as a theme, to kinda answer that question, that came up a lot in your other interviews with other hockey professionals, many of who played hockey at a very serious level, is experience, like somebody that's actually been there.
You yourself have played in the NHL, are the coach of the Junior Hurricanes. [00:19:00] And it seems to me that this is a universal principle that you can kinda get cheat codes and shortcuts from people that actually have been there and know how it works, rather than, um, people that just know in theory. And it's kinda like there's so many people on the internet that I call gurus, you know- Yeah, yeah
that are just like, they got promises and they got, you know, "If you give me money for my program, I guarantee you'll..." And then fill in the blank with something. And then there's people that I actually trust, which are practitioners, which is like, "Hey, here's what I did, and this is how it worked."
Marc Genest: Yeah. I mean, it's no secret.
You look at Keith Tkachuk. His two boys are playing in the National Hockey League. You look at Marco Pietroniro from Universiade. He's got five boys. Five of them play professional. So I, so I think there's a lot of, um- Cheat codes and tricks and tips. And I think for me, when I coached my kids, the key was I didn't emphasize as much time spending with my kids on the bench.
I remember driving home with my son, and he'd be like, "Dad, you ba- barely talked to me on the bench." I said, "Yeah, I'm coaching the whole team. But you get the privilege of [00:20:00] driving to and from the rink with me, so we can go through shift by shift on, on the way home, and we can certainly talk about you preparing to play the hockey game on the way to the rink."
So I- Yeah ... I think having that knowledge and that experience for guys that have played and the guys that have gone through it, obviously what Brady and Matthew Tkachuk have gone through in their youth hockey experience versus how Keith went through, um, is totally different, and the same for, you know, Rod Brind'Amour's two boys going through youth hockey at different times.
The paths are different, and the paths are more, I wouldn't say complicated, but I think you have to really... There's a lot of distractions out there. There's a lot of noise, and unfortunately, like anything else, there's a lot of fake news out there. There's a lot of fake stuff. I mean, I was talking to a friend of mine, and I was like, "Man," just being on the internet, I was like, "Man, is this real, or is this not real?"
Like, it's to the point where you really have to question yourself, and I think all the more reason why Stop and Starts is such [00:21:00] a, a cool, um, you know platform, a cool resonating board. It's, it's, it's a, it's a tool that you can use to help you make better decisions f- for your player
Joe Woolworth: Yeah, and I think it's also a way to get that experience if you don't have it personally.
Like, not everybody- Yeah ... is the son or a daughter of a coach that has-
Marc Genest: That's right ...
Joe Woolworth: serious experience. Yeah. You know, but that gives you that kind of access. It's basically your program is like that ride in the car home.
Marc Genest: That's right.
Joe Woolworth: You get time weekly with, with somebody with experience.
Marc Genest: But I also have conversation with guys that played high-end lacrosse and guys that have played.
Sure, they might not have the cheat codes for hockey and tricks and tools to play hockey, but, but man, at the end of the day, any, any parent that has played a high level of soccer, mom or dad, knows the amount of effort it takes in order for you to have success, right? That's the number one, number one core.
And, and regardless of different sports, I, I, I think it doesn't matter. Like, a good soccer coach, what does a good soccer coach have to do, [00:22:00] or what do you need to hear from a good soccer coach in order for you to feel comfortable for your kid to play for them? I mean, the same applies. But I, I, I think, I think what ends up being, and, and the same for these kids nowadays with social media, it's so much more pressure on the kids today.
And, um, you know, I feel bad for them because growing up, I really didn't care what other guys were doing because I didn't really know what they were doing. Unless I called their house phone or- Sure ... you know s- saw them at the rink or ... I, I wouldn't know where, where my buddies are playing. So I didn't have to constantly compare myself to somebody else.
And, and, and in today's world, that makes it difficult, and obviously there's way more sharks in the water in that regard as well. So you, you, you have to have the tools in order for you to make the right decisions.
Joe Woolworth: Yeah. This, so we're gonna get into a topic that comes up a lot. And so I bet if you're a parent of a hockey player, this is an exciting topic for you to hear somebody's opinion on is-
Marc Genest: Yeah
Joe Woolworth: is playing away from home [00:23:00] a necessity in order for my son or daughter to progress to the next level? Yeah. I mean, it comes up on every show.
Marc Genest: Travel. Every show, man. And whether, you know, you're, you're a, a, a dad like Rod Brind'Amour and, and, and his oldest boy was in a different situation than the younger boy, I, I think it all boils down to A, the maturity level of your child, number one, right?
I thought my oldest daughter was ready at 15 to go to prep school. Um, but, but also for girls hockey, it's, it's, it's different because there's not as many options for them to go play. There's not as many triple A options. I think for, for me, I think, um, my opinion is that I think if you live in a small hockey market and you could be one of the top players on your team, I think it's important that you put yourself in a position where- Excuse me, you're playing on a team where you're not one [00:24:00] of those top players.
I think that's key for development, right? Because I, I saw it firsthand. The top kids on my U14 team in practice would be able to coast through some drills, some one-on-one battles. They wouldn't have to work as hard because they were clearly more skilled than the next guy. I, I think that hurts development.
I think that, um, that reduces development. I, I think them being put in a situation where they're middle of the pack or bottom of the pack with higher end group, I think that's essential. So in making that decision, I have to evaluate that scenario. Number two, I, I think moving from one AAA program to another, for me, would never happen.
I would never do that. M- my children would move if I could combine the academics, the athletics, and the hockey in one environment. A, a hockey academy a prep school something along those lines that everything is all in one. And, and for us here, again, our travel and Raleigh being a small hockey market, [00:25:00] I, I think was very difficult.
We missed a lot of days of school. We'd get letters from the school saying, "Hey, you've missed your 11th day of school." th- that's crucial, too, right? Like we, we talked with many of our guests. Education is first and foremost. Then it's hockey, and then you have to add the development piece. I think for me in a small market where you're working out one day a week as a 15-year-old, I, I don't think that's enough.
I, I don't think you're gonna get the gains that you need to get off ice. While if you're at a prep school, you lift every day after practice. You have all the facilities that are there. You have teachers that are aware of your hockey schedule. Your, your academics are six days a week in prep school which means that you go school Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, half day, games in the afternoon.
Thursday, Friday, Saturday morning, you go to school. Saturday afternoon, you got games, and Sunday, you got games. So I, I think in that environment, yes, it makes sense. I think you have to s- seriously look at, [00:26:00] um, you know, everybody's different. Little Johnny's different than little Timmy, so w- you need to evaluate whether do, do I think he's capable of, of being on his own?
Do, do I think, um, do I think he's ready, right? A- and as a parent, we don't have our kids to shoo 'em off at 15 years old. That was never the plan for me. I never had thought I'd do that. I, I, I played junior, um, at a young age in Canada and, and didn't really have to move, so that was great. But again, right, hockey was a hotbed.
There was a lot of youth hockey around us. There was no need for us to move or no need for me to move anywhere. But again, with the expansion of hockey in all the small markets, the Tampas, the, the Floridas, the Carolinas, the Nashvilles, at some point, this becomes a, a real topic of conversation. What age is it all depends on, um how your sh- your son or daughter is mature enough or ready enough to make that jump.
But I, I [00:27:00] think for me it's, it's a no-brainer that you need to put them in an environment where they're not the biggest fish in the pond.
Joe Woolworth: [00:28:00] you've been talking a lot about development. That's one of the themes of the show. The idea that, is there a, is there a path or is there a parent that looks at the, the level of their, their kid's hockey and is like, "Okay, this is about learning how to work as a team," and th- that side of hockey, and there's just kinda, there's no drive in the kid.
There's no there's no [00:29:00] skill level that anybody's like, "Oh, this guy's gonna play, like, some college-level thing." Is it necessary for everybody to travel, or is it just for people-
Marc Genest: Absolutely not. I think, I think at the end of the day y-y-you can recognize how passionate your son is or your daughter is in the game.
If, if he can't get enough. If every time the Canes are on TV, they can't wait to watch. If they are following them on their, you know- Yeah ... on Score and, and watching. You, you can get a sense for how passionate. And that usually will impact their skill level, 'cause if they like hockey but, mm, you know, they're not, they're not shooting pucks in the garage.
They're not stick-handling in the house- Right ... or just annoying you with hitting you in the shin with the hockey stick just by accident- ... and just, you, you can tell. And- Yeah ... and I think you have to notice that. You know, you have to pay attention as a parent and, and just see. I- if it's just for fun, then that's great.
There's no, there's no problem with that But even though they're playing for fun, you want them [00:30:00] to learn the game. Right. And unfortunately, in smaller markets, the, the coaching at lower level is usually a parent that may or may not have a lot of hockey e- experience or a h- a lot of hockey IQ, which can make it difficult.
But at the end of the day, there is a certain level of passion into the game that'll dictate whether that little player is, is worthy of playing travel hockey, or house league is the path for them to enjoy the game and have fun. Yeah. You know?
Joe Woolworth: I think what's interesting is this show is about youth hockey.
You've interviewed some of the, the highest level people, yourself coaching the Junior Hurricanes. You had Rod Brind'Amour on, who just won a Stanley Cup. And none of your guests talked about any kind of, "Here's what you look for to know if your kid is good. Um, they're, they shoot X amount percentage." Yeah.
"There's this amount of this. There's that." Everybody had a slightly different version of the same answer you just said, which is, "What can you measure? Passion." I think Rod Brind'Amour something like- Yeah ... how much, how much fight is in that dog or something. Yeah. Heart. You know? And this is, that's [00:31:00] the thing that I feel like as a parent you're equipped to know at a gut level.
Marc Genest: Absolutely. Yeah.
Joe Woolworth: Probably more than anybody else.
Marc Genest: Yeah.
Joe Woolworth: Is this something your kid is actually into?
Marc Genest: Yeah. Because the more he's into it, the more he's willing ... It, it's not gonna be a chore for him to go shoot pucks. If you're constantly reminding little Timmy, "Hey, you know, did you shoot your pucks today?"
Well, i- if Timmy's a good player and he's passionate about it, he's gonna go shoot the pucks on his own. Right. Like, Rod Brind'Amour's dad didn't have to tell him to go shoot at the logs, and he didn't even have a net, right? And same for us. I mean, we, my dad didn't have to tell me to go play street hockey with, with the neighbors.
My dad didn't have to tell me to grab my sticks and go to the outdoor pond. My dad didn't tell me to, when to go water the pond in the backyard when we had one.
Joe Woolworth: Yeah.
Marc Genest: Um, these were things that I did because I love the game. And if you're passionate about something, that means that the additional effort or the extra effort Will, will follow.
And, and I think it's inevitable. If you put your mind [00:32:00] to something, you will have some success, some level of success.
Joe Woolworth: Let's talk about the other side of that just real quick, 'cause I'm thinking about, like, you hear people who are grown up, and they're like, "Man, I wish my parents would've made me stick with piano lessons- Yeah
or stick with," fill in the blank of whatever it is. In, in your experience, is there just intrinsic value to making a kid commit to something like hockey that might not result in them going to the NHL, but could really translate into, um, benefits for their life long-term?
Marc Genest: Absolutely. Yeah. And, and I hear it all the time, and especially down in, in, in, in the, in the Southeast I hear it all the time.
It's this, "Man, I, I wish hockey was around when I was growing up, 'cause this would've been the perfect game for me." And, and y- you know what? I, I think there, there is a lot to be said with commitment. You sign up. Okay, maybe you don't like it as much anymore, but you, you committed to playing for the year.
You need to finish that season. And, and- Yeah ... you know, we all know youth kids, um, [00:33:00] you know, I see kids dropping off from hockey at 16, 17, 18. You know, whether they see that maybe the path is not shaping up like they might've thought, and all of a sudden now they're in high school, they got prom, they got college coming up, they wanna join sororities and fraternities.
Their, their passion has switched, their priorities has switched and, and, and, you know, s- some of them come back, and some of them say, "Man, I just wish I would've just fought through it." Like, I- I'm going to say playing any kind of college hockey with is, whether it's AHA, D3, D1, professional hockey, high-level junior, is a commitment.
Like, it's a, a personal commitment, and it takes a s- significant amount of hard work and work ethic for you to persevere through the good times and the bad times. Because there are so many peaks and valleys that it's not even funny, and it really tests your your [00:34:00] fortitude and your ... It really checks your desire at the door.
Does, is this what I really wanna do? Like, is, is this, is this really worth it? Because it is so freaking hard, it's ridiculous. And, you know, not every kid is, is designed for that. Some kids get to the door and knock on the door, and some enter, some decide to just leave the door shut and go do something else.
But-
Joe Woolworth: Have you noticed, I mean, just talking about tips for parents, as a guy that's coached a lot of kids through this phase- Is there any signs that this, this is, hockey's run its course for this person? Like, this is, this is maybe- Yeah ... the period and not the comma?
Marc Genest: That's a good question. I think for me, um, you know, we don't have body checking at U12.
Body checking here starts at, at U13 or U14. Um, I, I think that's a deal breaker for some. Some, some kids like to play the game, do not like the physicality of the game, the heavy body check. Nobody really likes to get hurt. [00:35:00] Um, so I think that's a telltale sign that's often a break point for kids that want to continue, either play at a very high level regardless of how their skill sets are, versus you know what?
I'm not really into that. So typically at that br- at, at that age group, 13, 14, when the physicality starts, um, is when I see a lot of fall off as well, and then I see a lot of fall off a little later, like 16, 17, 18. That's when it becomes to be, okay, I got, I, you know, Friday night I'm playing, I can't go to the high school dance.
Or, you know, I've g- my buddies are having a party tonight, but I've got hockey, I can't go. And that becomes, you know, a matter of priorities and, and that's where you really see that level of passion. Like, for me, it was never, never an issue. Like, I never told my dad, "Oh man, you know, I really wanna go to this dance on Friday.
I've never been to a high school dance. But I got a game tonight, like you know, what, what c- you think I can miss?" I n- never has that ever crossed my [00:36:00] mind. So- Yeah ... I think for me and, and for all of our guests, you know, I, I don't know that there is a sign that you see. Usually the kid'll tell you. And, and you as a coach, I can't see a practice and say, "Hmm.
Yeah, little Ricky over there, I, I, I think this is it. I think he's on his last leg." You know? Usually the, the kid may not make all the commitments to the practices. He may start missing some games. He may start missing some practices. And then all of a sudden next year he's no longer in the fold. But no, you don't really typically, in my experience anyway, seen a kid mid-form, mid-season just decide to pack it in.
Joe Woolworth: All right, another common theme here. We're talking about development again here, specifically in youth hockey. There is a new league coming up that's starting in the '27-'28 season- Yeah ... that has development right in the name. That's right. It's the, it's the it's the National Development League. Is this...
What's your thoughts on this? Is this a buzzword? Is this a great thing for hockey?
Marc Genest: Yeah. You know, I've got a mixed bag of emotions on this. A- and I think for me, for [00:37:00] the elitist, I think this is great. But, you know, our Junior Hurricanes program, who's been notorious, we've had two significant birth years that were fantastic.
The '99s and the '08s were extremely talented, extremely deep. Um, Junior Hurricanes did not get a, a nomination to join that NDL, um, which Nashville did. So my, my fear is that some of our best players will wanna gravitate towards Nashville to be in that NDL, thinking that's the best path for them to promote their careers.
Um, so that's where I have a little bit of heartburn with this. I mean, time will tell whether it's good. I just think in the last two years, there's been so many changes to junior hockey, to youth hockey, to NCAA that I, that I, that I think right now it's just like a tornado, a whirlwind of information that's just...
I don't know what to believe. I don't know why w- all of a sudden we have to make all these changes. We have a AAA [00:38:00] program here. We have a AA program. We have an A program. We have a house program. And again, growing up, we only played AA. We didn't have AAA. Like, what's the next step? Quadruple A? I mean, this is getting...
To me, it's getting ridiculous. And I, I really have a lot of heartburn. I know it's great for the, for the Chicago Mission and the Caesars and all those groups in, in, in the northern part of the state. But, you know, for us the, the two Florida franchises, the Carolina Hurricanes there's the Charlotte program we, we didn't get a sniff of that.
We didn't get invited. This was invite-only. Um, and, um, yeah, I, you know, I, I don't think I don't think it's gonna be ideal for our prog- our program here, selfishly, um, only because I think our elite guys are gonna wanna merge up there. I, I think there is some rhyme or reason for what they're trying to do, and I understand that.
Um, but man, there's just been so much change. Like, I, we need a break from change. We [00:39:00] need, we need to really continue developing kids, and I think the main focus just doesn't need to be on the elite kid all the time. I feel like what this is what this is, is we're only gonna cater to the elite player. But again, the elite player at U12 or 14 may not be around at U17.
A lot of things change between 12 and 17 years old. I mean, I... W- what are we doing? Like, I just feel like if we're not coming up with a change tomorrow, then we're not doing what's best for our youth hockey kids. Like, I, I'm, I'm really, I'm, you know, I, I think it's time for us to just kinda regroup. I think focus on your youth, focus on your development.
This is the second Stanley Cup we've won in Carolina. We're getting more and more interest. And, and how much is that gonna cost to get into the NDL? How much is that gonna cost for you to move your child at, at 14 or 15 or 16 up to another AAA program? Is that really the best case scenario? What are you doing for school now?
Now you're gonna enroll them in a school in Nashville. It's not a prep academy. It's not a, a, [00:40:00] a one-stop shop for hockey academics and fitness. It's, it's another AAA team that just happens to have gotten the NDL tag
Joe Woolworth: Yeah, it's interesting. I was just looking at a little overview from, so it's the USA Hockey Development League.
They, they say that they're aiming for the top 2% of players in the, in the age groups, like you were saying. So it is targeted at elites. Just elitist. Yeah. Which is, which is complicated. How do you know- I- ... who the top 2% is when you're trying to figure out
Marc Genest: Exactly. I, I just feel like, a- again, we've, we've talked about these 10 questions in, in 10 podcasts, right?
In, in this segment about developing youth ho- how many guys make it to the NHL? Like, the NHL compromised of three brackets, right? The top tier is all first rounders. Second tier is second rounders. And the rest is filled of third rounders, free agents- Yeah ... non-drafted hockey players. Like, where, where did those guys develop?
Where did those guys get an opportunity to go play hockey and maybe not in the NDL, [00:41:00] but just being able to be in an environment where they can be coached and learn how to play the game and, and I, a- again, this is just another step for elite hockey players at a young age, and man, I, I'm not sure that I buy into that.
I
Joe Woolworth: don't- And I think they've got a lot of work to do for the, so the 20- 27 to 28 season's their first one, so we should see the top one to two percent go directly into college in the NHL in '29 from this program. Yeah. I, I don't know that that's- If, if they're gonna fit with their marketing. It also says, "They're designed to streamline player development and create a direct path to junior and collegiate hockey."
Marc Genest: Yeah.
Joe Woolworth: Which sounds a lot like what you were just cautioning about. Like, if anybody says, "Hey- Yeah ... pay this money-
Marc Genest: Exactly ...
Joe Woolworth: we'll get you this."
Marc Genest: Yeah. And nowhere does it mention anything about fees, right? I mean, did, did, did it have
Joe Woolworth: any fees? I see nothing about
Marc Genest: fees. Yeah, exactly. So I, I
Joe Woolworth: think I- But I, I have to imagine it's gonna be in the top 2% -
Marc Genest: Yeah, exactly.
Yeah ...
Joe Woolworth: of fee structure.
Marc Genest: Exactly. So again, I, you know, and, and then I- I'm just talking to a power skating instructor in Canada, and she was saying that there's a new league for [00:42:00] elite hockey players between the ages of six and 10 in Canada, and they're on the ice every day of the week for a fee of $10,000.
And I'm thinking to myself, "Oh my God." I mean- $10,000 a year? ... A, number one, my dad woulda never signed up for that. And, you know, I asked her, I said, "Man, is your kid in there?" And she was like, "No, he's playing Timbits." You know, Tim Horton's. Saturday morning, Sunday morning, and the rest of the week we're working on skills and just letting them develop a passion for the game.
We're missing the boat. We're jamming hockey down people's throats constantly. And now with this NDL, we're just catering to the elitist, you know? And I think that's a big issue, so.
Joe Woolworth: So I'm on some Reddit threads from trying to figure out a little bit of the cost. Basically, so this is unproven, but expected base tuition is probably, they're saying a general range is from 10,000 to 25,000 per season.
Marc Genest: Oof.
Joe Woolworth: 60% travel.
Marc Genest: Yeah.
Joe Woolworth: Which means the full season totals could between- bility and [00:43:00] academics. This is all AI, right? So take this with a grain of salt. Mm-hmm. It could run between 30 and 75 plus.
Marc Genest: Wow. Unbelievable.
Joe Woolworth: That's,
Marc Genest: So that's my thoughts on the NDL. I mean, I, I, I think USA Hockey wants to do something really well, then help us with the cost of ice time and programs, help us with more development for the youth hockey, get more people playing hockey.
Make this about the player, the athlete, not about how wealthy the family is that can afford this.
Joe Woolworth: So it seems like this first season they're targeting the 15U and 17U levels is going to be the participating program fields- Correct ... in, in this season. So how do you think the U18 is going to be affected by this new National
Marc Genest: Development League?
Joe Woolworth: Yeah, I think
Marc Genest: I really think, um The U18 is slowly going to go away, in my opinion. I, I think now the NCDC offers two levels, or sorry, the USPHL offers two levels of hockey or of junior hockey, the, the premier level and then the NCDC. I foresee in [00:44:00] the, in the next few years that the premier level will be the new U18 or developmental league in order for the kids to move on and progress with their junior hockey level, right?
I think, I think what's so important is that, you know, when you're getting guys to, um develop and grow, why wouldn't you take a 16-year-old, put him in the prim level at a junior hockey playing with... I mean, there's still some kids that are s- 18, 19, and 20 years old at that junior level. W- why wouldn't they experience a little bit of junior hockey at a lower skill level so that when they're ready to take the path of the, you know, the, the NCDC, the NAHL, the USHL, the BCHL, whatever junior path is in their cards they'll have some junior experience.
Whether it's at that same skill level or not, it's irrelevant. When you're getting a 16-year-old to play against a 19-year-old, there's a certain certain big difference. And, and I think them getting over the fear factor of playing with an older player, a more experienced [00:45:00] player will certainly help and, and, and, and curve their development.
Joe Woolworth: All right, final question here from the t- this is the 10th question. The idea of, as we talked about in this episode, nobody has a crystal ball, but you gain certain wisdom by talking to people who have been there, who are practitioners, who are actively in the field. So we're not saying that this is a prediction here that anybody's gonna hold you to or make a bet on Kashi here, but how is junior hockey evolving?
What junior leagues are the right paths for NCAA Division I, III, ACHA?
Marc Genest: Yep. I, I think that's been one of the most important questions for 15, 16, 17-year-olds between the main camps and where should I go and what should I do and who should I go play for. I think it all boils down to this. I think with all the changes that have been made in the last two years, the CHL seems to be the number one path for [00:46:00] kids to go from junior hockey to the NCAA level And I'm not sure how long that's gonna last because the NCAA has a pending rule change that'll maximize the level of non-Americans to 20%.
So I think that could change a little bit of the level of the path. But, but regardless, the CHL could be a good- the number one feeder for the NCAA. And then also U Sports, right? We've- we're forgetting about U Sports in Canada too. If you're Canadian, you have the luxury of being able to play Division I hockey in Canada, which is also very strong.
Um, I would say that, um, in, in my personal opinion, the BCHL is, is, is a s- a strong- the strongest Tier II hockey there is. But now they've just formed a new BCHC out west, which is governed by Hockey Canada. BCHL is not in Hockey Canada. So I suspect some change there and some mitigation and, and whatever, unionization over there to [00:47:00] happen, um, as more teams are jumping from the BCHL to the WHL.
So that changes the gamut. As far as the NAHL and the NCDC being the, the next level Tier II hockey, I, I think both of those teams cater to Division III hockey. Um, I s- I see a few more NAHL guys committing D1, but really with, with all the rule changes, um, I, I, I... You're not seeing that near as much, and you're seeing more and more kids that are committing from D1, either prep school directly to NCAA or, or coming from the CHL for the Division I.
So I would say anything Tier II-wise would be VCHL, NAHL, NCDC would be a clear path for Division III or ACHA. And, you know, I have to say to some of the families out there that the ACHA, the ACHA Hockey League is very strong. The Division I, there are some [00:48:00] really good hockey teams. And certainly a great path for you to continue your college education and, and your opportunity to play college hockey.
NC State's got a great program here. UNC's got a great program. We have Elon. We have all kinds of schools here in the area that have great ACHA programs. Division III is also very strong. Also m- more known for some smaller schools, the Stevensons and that kind of stuff. But also, you know, just a continuation of your hockey career.
That's four more years of you having the opportunity to play some high-level hockey. So I, I suspect more changes to come, more dynamics, more s- statistics coming out of this coming year as to where all the kids are coming from, where are they going from, what's happening, where, where are they going where are the kids coming from.
I mean, that's to be determined right
Joe Woolworth: now. Yeah. So quick follow-up on that before we get to your final thoughts here. Fast-forward a couple years, now that the [00:49:00] NDO has been in formation Do you think they're going to have a specific path? It looks like there, there's going to be 580 open spots-
Marc Genest: Yeah
Joe Woolworth: this year. So we're not talking about a lot of people.
Marc Genest: That, that's right.
Joe Woolworth: A total between maybe 1,600 and, or 1,100 and 1,200 players nationwide will make the roster for this new league.
Marc Genest: Right.
Joe Woolworth: If you had to make a guess, any, any thoughts?
Marc Genest: You know what? I, I think it's gonna be the shiny new nickel. I think it's, it's going to be kinda attractive but it's gonna be cost prohibitive.
And again, I just don't want the kids that make it that are the kids that have spent the money to make it. And, and I know a lot of people think it's that way, but there's still a ton of first round draft picks and, and second round draft picks that, you know, the, the monies weren't necessarily a factor.
The, the commitment financially for you to play youth hockey now is higher than ever with the cost of [00:50:00] gear and travel for sure is, is really expensive. But man, at the end of the day, I, I just, I, I'm not sure why we're just focused on the elite, right? There's enough... You know, is the, is the NDL being created because the USHL is losing a little flavor?
I mean, USHL is considered to be a tier one hockey league here in the United States, but they're also seeing less and less kids committing to D1. So NDL, are, are, are we trying to go younger so that the kids could be on a better platform for them to be showcased to these D1 schools? I'm not really sure what the idea is.
Um, but certainly these junior leagues have taken a taken a, a backseat if you will, or, or a passenger seat to actually what the paths have always been and where they're headed now. I think everything's ever-changing and, and I was talking to a couple of agents in, in the last couple of weeks. I'm like, "Guys, you gotta come take a look at the NCDC."
Man, I, I know I'm, I might sound biased 'cause my son plays in a different team, [00:51:00] but man, we just came back from a showcase in Hampton. I thought the hockey was fantastic based on what I'm seeing on TV in the CCHL and the NAHL. I mean, you've got some really elite hockey players in the NCDC and, and, um, you know, for a tier, for a tier two hockey, I, I see a lot of kids and I think it's just gonna be a matter of time that...
I think with all these changes, you're gonna start seeing a lot of kids come from different areas. You know, they're not gonna be so focused at, as to what program they're playing for, what league they're playing in, but what is that player all about? And again, you know, when I, when I scout or watch or, or evaluate a player, I don't necessarily look at what he's doing today, but I look at what, with some good coaching and good development, what can he look like tomorrow?
And, and I think at the end of the day, all these platforms are giving kids an opportunity to showcase their skill sets and it's giving the scouts and, and s- schools and junior teams more people to pull from and look from. But [00:52:00] again, right now I feel like we're just catering to the elitist.
Joe Woolworth: Yeah, and I mean, just some quick math here.
If they're targeting the top 2%, that means they're saying that between 29,000 and 32,000 Youth hockey players are competitive. And we were talking before the show, and that's probably not the number of kids playing hockey.
Marc Genest: No, I don't think so.
Joe Woolworth: So they're s- they're targeting a small percentage of a small percentage.
Marc Genest: Yes.
Joe Woolworth: So.
Marc Genest: So.
Joe Woolworth: All right, so final thoughts on this. This is, this has been our new segment, the 10 in 10.
Marc Genest: Yep. So, the, you know, I, I think you know, really happy and, and, and, and really content with the, the first 10 episodes of, of podcasts that we've done. Um, I could tell our service is something that a lot of people need and-
Joe Woolworth: Yeah, I can
Marc Genest: tell
Joe Woolworth: you-
are wanting to have ... the idea of all of your comments being positive and liking your show on YouTube, that doesn't happen a lot.
Marc Genest: Yeah.
Joe Woolworth: It- That's not normally what the comments are for ...
Marc Genest: in, in a, [00:53:00] in a, in a, yeah. And I think, um, it, it's been really interesting the, the types of questions, the level of questions, the different level of player that the parent is calling about, from a seven-year-old, to a 15-year-old, to an 18-year-old, to a college kid.
Um, you know, I, I think it's been really interesting for me to see that, you know, there's a lot of families that need a lot of help. And you know, I'm so excited about the future for Stop and Starts, and so excited to help these families, and, and nothing makes me feel better than paying it forward. I've had a lot of people help me in my career a lot of great coaches, and, and a lot of great people, um, and my family.
And everybody's been a huge part and, and, and happy to give back, and, and, and help other families find their way.
[00:54:00]