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Jill and Kerrye open up about their deeply personal experiences with miscarriage, sharing raw and honest stories of loss, grief, and ultimately finding hope. From panic attacks and shame to dreams of heaven and standing on God's promises, this vul...
A faith-forward podcast for people who love Jesus but also love being honest about how weird and wonderful life can be. Hosts Kerrye and Jill tell stories about the Bible, talk about their faith, and dig into what it looks like to follow God through the ordinary chaos of everyday, imperfect life. Real conversations. Real stories. No pretending to have it all together. Pull up a chair, turn the page, and let's go.
Make. So you said you're going to record an intro. Oh, I need to text that to. Leave a little space after you say it. So we'll know. Okay. I told him that it would be. We want to get four or five. Episodes in before we start doing anything. Okay. Everything else, aside from Le Open was great. Once we get the logo figured out that on the intro to. We're not in a gigantic way. I mean, we are, but we aren't. We're. We're moving with purpose, but not with urgency. There's another person that's been wanting here, and they frantically messaging me multiple times a day saying. Oh, no. Well, that's not a. Listen. My whole world is based on not being a problem. So we're gonna be the ones that you're like, they're such a breeze to work with. I mean, once I'm done with this whole system, you're just gonna press a button and it'll go live everywhere. Do we have to, like, make a page or something? Like, make an account on, like, Spotify and Apple podcasts and stuff like that? Like, not system does all that for you. I just want to make one of those Facebook and YouTube. She won't do YouTube. Yeah, but I've done Instagram. But you'll make it. And then on the dashboard, you go to connect account. Okay. And then any account you want to be posted to. So I'll need to add a button on there later. If you connect Facebook to it right now, it'll automatically post the video. I don't need to add a button that says video or audio. I'm not ready for it. We got an email now because after our last one. So are you ready? And he told me he won't be here, so I'll just hit stop. Yeah, the volume is good. Yeah. If I'm not here when y' all are done, just press the stop button. Close the door back later to turn. It's my cord. I sent you that. Well, we. How? Well, that's because we audio recorded that. Okay. Hey, did it have pictures of three? It. EP has increased their summer cost. What is AR? What? The program 10 leads in. But I feel like it's not fair to those already on year two, and it's full for three weeks instead of two in June. I said, you should say something. Maybe I could get my friend Jill to call and be like, listen. Yeah, I've got some aggression I need to take out. This is not fair. You're gonna make it fair. You know who else is really good at that. That I have found. Is Raven really? Yes. She is very good at advocating. But yet she gave up her part. Well, yeah, I think she would have pushed further if. If we would have been like you should. True. Tell me he doesn't want to be them person. Oh, yeah. Which I'm glad he's too tall, but. So he wants to hold a. Hold an animal. Okay. See ya. Thanks. All right. You're good. Did you give him food he didn't want? It's okay. It's okay. He doesn't have to have it. Oh, I lost it. Okay, so I'm about to do the cold open. Okay. You're listening to Chapter and Verse, a faith forward podcast for people who love Jesus but also love being honest about how weird and wonderful life can be. We tell stories. We open the Bible, and we talk about what faith looks like in an everyday, ordinary chaos. No perfect people allowed. I don't like it. I need to do it again. Forget that towel. Delete that one. Delete it. I should have read it more thoroughly. Okay, you're listening to Chapter and Verse, a faith forward podcast for people who love Jesus, but also love being honest about how weird and wonderful life can be. We tell stories, open the Bible and talk about what faith looks like in everyday, ordinary chaos. No perfect people allowed. Let's turn the page. Okay, that's it. Welcome back, everybody. We're here. It's Jill and Carrie. Yay. And we are shaking things up a little bit today. We're gonna get a little bit of Carrie's story. We're gonna focus on some interesting but also maybe a little bit difficult topics. So fair warning, it might get a little bit emotional. I'm not getting emotional. I mean, I'm not either. We know I can't cry, but for the average listener, it might be a little bit emotional. Yes. So, Carrie, we're going to talk about. Well, we'll just jump right in, as we do, because that's what we do here. We're going to talk about miscarrying and the trials and tribulations and all the feels that come with that. So this is something that is very, very near and dear to your heart. I know that you have had several miscarriages. You also have had several. Kids. Yeah, I was gonna say, like, successful pregnancies, but that seems like a silly way to say it. So. Yes. You also have several children. How many miscarriages have you had total? I've had three that I can document. And I have three. I always say three kids on earth. Three kids in heaven. I love that. So I love three is my number. But we had been married maybe a couple years and we decided we're going to start trying to have kids. I have no problem, had no problem getting pregnant. It was, you know, just a. So you could get me. Well, the first time before any kids got pregnant, you know, was so excited. Of course, you know, everybody's. All the women can identify. You're so excited. You want to tell people. So why not? And this was years ago. Mistakes. Yeah, well, you know, and I have two adult children, one 13 year old. So this was a while back. We're not going to talk about it. We're not going to talk about age. Talk about age here. Think about the numbers. If you'd like to. If you know, my thing for you. To do, feel free. We won't discuss it. No, I don't want to. Still an issue with me, but. Okay. So I, you know, was expecting. Everything was awesome, and then it was not awesome and I miscarried. How far along in that first pregnancy were you when I was found out, you miscarried? 10 and a half weeks, I believe. And it was devastating. And this is the time of year I think about it the most because our church that I was going to at the time, planned a Super bowl party. Oh, man. And we had been planning it for weeks. And you were part of the planning or you were just looking forward? I was the secretary at the church at the time. So I, you know, it was not a gigantic church, you know, 400 or 5. Between 4 and 500. So I was, you know, planning it with the staff. And we were all excited. Well, they were excited. I was excited about the party part because we, if you know me, I am not into sports at all, doesn't. Know anything about any of them. So we had planned a lot of things and I was working with the staff to do that. So we were all excited. And a couple of days before I actually miscarried, I started spotting and I of course, contacted my doctor. She was very nice, but she was like, not much you can do at this point. She didn't want to see me, which, you know, scared me more, actually. She said, just keep your feet up and just relax. Like, try to relax. And I was like, okay, I'm in. The middle of planning this huge event. Yeah, well, then. And I wasn't, I was helping, but I, you know, it didn't stop the event. So on Super Bowl Sunday, I really started miscarrying at home. And I remember just, you Know, finally deciding we need to go to the hospital. So, you know, we went. And that whole process in the ER was just devastating too, because, you know, they were like, well, you're still showing on your pregnancy test that you're pregnant. I'm like, how? Because, you know, the bleeding and on. I'm not gonna. Graphic and everything. But I was like, there's no way. I mean, maybe we should get graphic. I mean, it was a lot. Let's just say that. And so I remember being in pain so much that I was crying. And one of the nurses was not very nice. I mean, I don't remember a lot of the details, but she was like, you need to calm down. And I was like, I can't. This hurts. And then she immediately was like, I'm sorry. Well, that's good. Yeah. So I was like, okay, you worse. You're okay. But anyway, so I miscarried. And what stuck out to me the most about that day is the staff stopped the party. What? Yeah, they stopped the party. Well, I don't know if the party kept going, but they came to the hospital. That's really. And so when I saw, you know, them, finally, before I went, I had the dnc. That one. I had a dnc, the only one I had a DNC with. And I remember seeing specifically one of the pastors, and he came in and he. And I was like, the party. And he goes, that doesn't matter. That doesn't matter. And. And then I was like, of course that made me cry. And I was like, that's why you need to have people. That is why you need to have. People tribe around you. Because that meant. I still remember that. Recognize too, that, like, that's how the church is supposed to. Church. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, there's this crazy event going on, but one of our people needs to have our attention. And that meant a lot. So had the dnc. Went home, of course, was devastated. I was embarrassed. Isn't it strange how there's this. This aura of shame that just kind of falls on you? You've nothing to do with this. There's nothing you could possibly do to prevent it. Well, you're change it. I don't know if it was just me, and I'm only speaking mine, but I was like, what did I do wrong? What did I. Did I pick up something, you know, I lifted a heavy object. Did I not take enough vitamins? You know, you're. You're going, it's my fault. This is my fault. But you Know now being older, living through two more after that. I mean not right after that, but it's not. Also just you've helped several of you know, your friends and acquaintances and churchgoers and whomever threw it as well. It, it's something when you, when one, not you particularly, but when a person has their first miscarriage, it's very easy to think this only happens to me. Yeah, well. And I didn't hear of anybody. That's it. No one talks about it. They didn't at the time. I hear it more now, maybe social media and stuff, but I was just embarrassed. And I remember, you know, going home. I was, didn't go back to work for a couple of days, but it wasn't the day after. But maybe the next day people started coming and bringing me food and it was nice. And I remember my friend Becky in particular. She was like, I never thought this would happen to us and that was awesome. And I was like, that's sweet. But here's the thing that I want women to know if they ever experience it. People don't know what to say. And they don't. And I, I'm for one, am not one of those people who's like, how dare they say that, you know, in a time of grief. Because they don't know. Even I don't know well what to say now, what people want to hear. Well, everyone's different. Some people like I, I'm a jokester. If you can make me laugh about stuff, I, I, that's what I need. Yeah, that's what I need. So I thought everything to me at that point. I didn't care what people said. I thought everything was sweet. Even if they did not know what to say. Like, even the comments now that I'm like, oh, they probably shouldn't have said that. But like comments like able to see. Their intentions, you were able to see their heart. Like, well, maybe there was something wrong with the baby that did not hurt my feelings. It, I was just glad that they cared. But maybe I'm different. I was just like, they just care and they're trying to make me feel better. Right. So anyway, so a couple days after I'd been home, I feel like the, the panic attacks set in and I was ever. This was really the days before a lot of maybe we did have cell phones, but I don't remember having one. But I. Bobby left for work, you know, he was going back to work and I, everybody in my family worked. So I started having a like full blown panic attack. I didn't know what it was because I'd never had one. But I was crying. I tried to call people, and they were between home and work, and I couldn't get a hold of anybody. So I called the church and. Because I was like, well, somebody will be there. Maybe. Maybe Carrie. Because he was always there early. Another Carrie is Becky's husband. And he picked up. Lucky him. And I was like, hey, Carrie. He goes, hey. And I was like. And then I just went silent. And he goes, carrie. And I was like. And I just became overcome with emotion. And I was like, I can't stop crying. And he was like, oh, okay. You know, a guy, he's like, okay, okay. This is okay. And he just. He prayed with me. I don't remember what he said, but, you know, in the couple weeks following that, I went back to work. He was, you know, there one morning. And I remember specifically, he would start the coffee maker every morning. And every morning it sounded like a heartbeat to me. And so that. Like, the baby. Yeah, like that. And I was like, I can't take this. So I started crying. And he came out and he was like, what is it? I said, I'm just. I'm just. I didn't tell him, hey, it's your coffee maker. Yeah. But I was like, nothing. And just. And he. You know, I think he prayed with me. He left again, and then he came back and he said, I just wanted to tell you a verse. And I was like, okay. And he was. He said, Job 1:21. Naked I came from. No, naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I will return. The Lord gives and the Lord takes away. Blessed be the name of the Lord. And he said, in all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing. And I appreciated the verse. I don't feel like I was blaming God, but I. That verse, in that moment, just helped me so much, and. Because I thought, no matter what, what, I can pray. I can bless the name of the Lord. Yeah, I can do it. He didn't cause this. He knew it was going to happen. He didn't stop it. But, you know, I'm. I'm glad in a way that it happens because it brought me closer to God. I mean, I am glad it happened. I'm not. In a way, I'm glad it happened. I. I fully believe that baby and my two others that I lost later are in heaven. I just believe life begins at conception. And I believe there was a spirit, soul, body right away. So a couple more days went By. And I'm still in panic attack. Just hit me out of nowhere. And then one night, I was in a panic attack. Bobby was not home for some reason. And I called mom, and I was like, I can't stop crying. And she, you know, was like, well, it was kind of late. And she goes, carrie, you can lay down and rest because God works the night shift. He doesn't sleep. And I was like, okay. And, you know, people were giving me verses, which helped, but. But she said, just go to sleep. He's awake. And that really calmed me down. So I went to sleep. And that night dreamed of heaven. Oh, and I was walking along with someone. Now, I think it was probably an angel, because I never looked to my side, my right side, to see who it was, but it was a big someone. Okay. And I was walking up a grassy hill. And to tell you how it looked would not. There's no words to describe what heaven looks like. There's. I can just say, like, the big, the best word. Everything was swirly. And I think when I say that, I mean everything was really alive. Like, I was looking at the grass and thinking, that's alive. Like, it was so a. Such a color, vibrant, and just. I could see the details of grass. Okay. Yeah. It was just weird. And so I started walking this hill with this person or being. And I didn't ever talk to him, but I felt peaceful. And I felt like he was saying stuff to me, but I just. Not talking. It was weird. It was just downloaded in your head, like you knew what was going on. And then somebody was walking towards me, and it was a bearded man in normal clothes. And I was like, here comes Jesus. This is it. He had dark hair. And as he got closer, I was like, no, that's not Jesus. And he gets closer, and he goes, hi, Mom. And I was like, who are you? And he said the name I had picked out and which. What is that name? Boaz. And Bobby hated the name. And he would probably would not. If the pregnancy had gone full term, we would not have named him that. But I. It was stuck in me. But in your heart, it's Boaz. I was like, this is Boaz. And I said, what's your name? He said, boaz. And I was. Of course, I just burst into tears and just hugged him. But I remember specifically his eyes were swirly. And that's the only thing I could say. But later on, like, years later, I just remember his eyes were so swirly. And years later, I was reading that verse where it talks about his eyes are like fire. And I was like, that's it. That's really what. It looked like fire. But it wasn't red. It was like a greenish. But it looked like. Like the way of fire. Yes. Goes and swirls and. And I don't know what. I have not done research on that. Have not like looked into that at all. But after that moment, I was sad. You know, I woke up, I was sad, but not panicked, you know, not like overwhelm of panic. And. And so. And then the next pregnancy was successful. The next pregnancy was successful. And then we waited years to have. Our third, some might say. I mean, I remember saying, girl, are you sure? Yeah, that was a long time. It was like halfway to being done. I get. Got little. Very sick each pregnancy. And it got. Well, I knew I was very sick with the first pregnancy, successful pregnancy. And then the next time it was worse. And I just kept thinking, when can I stop my life for three to four months at least. Because, I mean, is that ever an option? I'm just like, I couldn't. And so finally had a conversation with Bobby and I was like, I really want that third baby. We both prayed about it at that time because, you know, you're. You are done, kind of. Yeah. And I said, it's amazing. Let's pray about it for a week. And then when we come back together, you know, let's. Let's just see what God told us. And basically, yeah, he gave us the green light. Both of us. So had True. Where it's gonna have true. Sorry. Then we had two miscarriages before True. And how far apart were those miscarriages? Maybe five months. Okay. So. And I remember the last one, maybe the first one. I don't know. Me and you were already. I feel like friends. Yeah. But not as close. Super tight then. But I would. I didn't tell anybody about the first one because there was things going on in my family. Not bad, but just things that I was like, I'm just gonna keep this quiet. I'm not gonna burden anybody else with it. Yes. Didn't go to the hospital, just quietly did this at home and grieved and everything. And then I don't remember if it was the first or second one, but you and I had had a miscarriage. And you said something funny. You said something funny to me. And I doubt it was about my. Big fat Greek wedding is when we were like just obnoxiously reciting lines from it all the time. But that's the first time I remember laughing. I Think it was after the second one. And I was like, okay, I'm gonna be okay. But I'm just saying this because. You. Never know what people need, and you need to, you know, if you need to give an encouraging word, follow through with that. Or if you need to make somebody laugh, follow through with that. But I just remember after the second one, that time I was like, this dream is going to die. I'm not gonna have a third. Oh, it's just gonna die. And I had to grieve that dream. And I don't know, I just. I decided to try one more time in it, and it was fine, but it was. It's a very, you know, personal thing, but also the embarrassment. And I don't know why the embarrassment is attached to it. But here are some scriptures that I stood on on all besides the job, but Luke 1:37, for with God nothing shall be impossible. I stood on that in Mark 9:23, everything is possible for one who believes. And then Isaiah 65, 24, before they call, I will answer. While they are still speaking, I will. I will hear. So it's like before they even call. That got my attention. Like, before you even mention what you. Need, before you have a need, he knows it. And he. He will answer. He's already answered. He's already answering. Yeah, he's done. So that's really, you know, God already knows everything. And another thing I'll touch on just a little bit, because this is what I. When I had the first miscarriage, I got a book called Supernatural Childbirth. And if anybody is struggling with any kind of fertility issues, go get it. I think Jackie Mize is the author, but it's an old book, but it's really good. But in that, she talked about tithing, and she said, there's a verse in Malachi 311 that talks about not. First of all, Malachi 3 talks about tithing and why you should tithe. And. But on 3 11, it says, your fruit. You. You will not cast your fruit before it's time. And I was like. And she said, that has to do with, like, your kids. You will not miscarry. And it made sense to me. And I was like, you know what? I tithe. Yeah. And I. You know, in that chapter, it talks about rebuking the devourer. He will rebuke the devourer for your sake, like, off of your crops. And I know we don't have crops, but off of your livestock. Off. And she said, hang on to that promise, because that is. He's Satan. Always wants to steal the seed. Yeah. All through the Bible, you see. He wants to steal the seed. Yeah. And that's. That's your seed. Your kids are the seed. Yeah. And, you know, you can look back at different, you know, stories where. Well, you know, like, with Moses and the Pharaoh at that time trying to kill all the babies. Yeah. And with Jesus. With Jesus during his birth, they tried to kill all the babies two years and under. So he's always after the seed because, you know, godly seed is worth everything. So, anyway, but that. That really stuck out to me, and there's so many. So many scriptures that will encourage people. But I just, after the first miscarriage, started writing these down and putting it where I could see it, like, by my computer. When I open the refrigerator, there's one. When I open the cabinet, there's one just to see it all the time. After this, you know, before true. Came the. Before the third child came. This is gonna sound really weird. I would write it down and put it in my, like, under my. In my sock, under my foot. Because I, like, I'm stand on. I'm literally going to stand on this word, you know, I mean, I don't. Think that sounds weird. I know that you have ridiculous habits with your socks. Sidebar. This woman once, just to get under my skin, she realized that she was wearing a pair of boots that she had worn the previous day, had just, like, not taken a sock out, apparently. I don't know, just taking it off. And the sock stayed in there. Sock stayed in there in the toe of the boot. And then she put her foot in. And a normal human being would take their foot back out of the boot, get the sock, and be like, okay, that's more. This is going to trigger some people. Not Ms. Carrie. Nope. She decided she's gonna leave that sock in the toe of her boot for the whole day until we're together. And then she can whip that boot off in the middle of a Kroger parking lot and be like, oh, Jill, I've got this sock in my boot. You people. You OCD people. It was so insane. I just was, like, flabbergasted right now. Years lady later, and I'm still like. I mean, my socks right now do not match. And one's probably inside out. I just never handle it. I don't care. I don't need the socks to match, by the way. Like, I can do. What if one's like a skew? Any askew sock is going to bother me. Inside out would bother me. That Would bother me. No, you don't feel it. What if your sock is inside out right now? It is not. What is not changing? Nothing. It's changing. I know. I know of my makeup. I've got my people who are listening, but I'm sure there's not very many people who are listening that are on my side. But people who are on my side, let us know. Let us know. Socks in or out, whatever, it doesn't matter. But anyway. But that's just I, you know, through. You stood on the word. Yeah. And I've. I have done that a lot. Not just during that time, but, like, I'm gonna stick this word right under here, under my bra strap. I just, you know, I'm gonna have it close to my heart. You know, I told my friends one time who had shingles I, like, highlighted. I had one of those little New Testaments highlighted some verses, anointed those verses and, like, prayed over, anointed it and said, go put this on your face. So we're just. Lay it. You can't. You know, he wanted to be in the dark because it hurt so bad, but I said, just lay it, Lay it. And the next day, he was fine. There is something supernatural about the. The written word of God and the spoken word of God about word. The word is life. Yep. So, I mean, try it. Try it anyway. But that's. That is just my story with miscarriage. But I feel like, you know, you have your own story about the seed, and if you want to share it, you can. But if you need prayer over, you know, you're struggling with fertility issues, we can do that. Just email us. Hex. Yes. Yeah. And we will. We will pray over it, but for sure. So, Jill, my own story about the seed. It sounds so ominous and, you know, important. So I also miscarried, but prior to that. So if you listened to last week's episode, we alluded to there being more to certain areas of my story. And this portion of the story happens while I am on my sabbatical from believing when I was really, really doing everything in my power to run away from God and be like, nope, I'm done. I'm out. I'm mad at you. This didn't need to happen. Your guy over there said that she, you know, my friend who was killed must have done something wrong, which is all just nonsense. But in the moment, I was. Well, I was willing to believe it. So I ran in the complete opposite direction of God, and I found myself with child, which is. This is from the boyfriend that no one liked too, right? Yes. This is. I mean, that you mentioned last. Not no one liked. There were people who your circle of friends did not. But there were definitely a few in the circle that were not fans. My family was not fans, which I didn't really care because we weren't close. And let me preface this by saying, like, he is not evil. He is not bad. He just wasn't the guy for me. But we. We had relationships. Not relationships. We had a relationship that we should not have had. And we ended up getting pregnant. And ultimately, I decided. I mean, I don't even think that I allowed him to have an opinion. Like, I just said, I'm having an abortion. Done, full stop, not entertaining any other options. And he. You know, he's a kid. I mean, we were very young, and we both just saw our whole life flash in front of us, and he was just like deer in the headlights and let me do what I was gonna do. And so. So I had an abortion. There was no. I didn't have counseling. I didn't have any. Like, I just made this decision and then went and had it done and have regretted that decision essentially every day since. About six months after I had the abortion, I was delusional for about six months where I was trying very hard to convince myself that it was fine. Everything was fine. I was fine. And then about six months later is when I started getting back into church. And that was when I was like, oh, it is not okay. It's not okay. And then I really thought that I had worked through it. Like, I really thought that, like, I had gotten a hold of everything God had given me, and I was forgiven. And I knew it. Like, I knew I had asked for forgiveness and that God had forgiven me. I knew it. And then I met Ben, and we got married, and everything's great. And Ben. I mean, like, Ben knew about my past, so it's not like he. You know, I had to come to terms and tell him or confess or anything. Nothing like that. But. So we got married, and then we got pregnant pretty quickly after we got married, and we did not intend to get pregnant at that time. We were just. But we also weren't preventing it. We were just like, if it happens, great. If it doesn't, great. So we got pregnant and then miscarried. And we were about nine weeks along when I found out that we were miscarrying. And I remember I. I went to the hospital, actually, I went to the doctor because I had spotted. And he was like, we'll Give it a couple of days. It's super common to spot this early. Don't worry, it's fine. Take it easy. I said, okay, great. So I did. Had a couple of days, still was spotting. Called him back, he said, come in. So we did an ultrasound. They were like, listen, you're. You've miscarried. And I was like, oh, man. And the really sad part is that because of my job, I'm familiar with all kinds of. So I knew we'd miscarried before they even legitimately told us. And poor Ben, standing there in the dark, you know, hoping beyond hope. And I'm looking at the ultrasound screen going, that's not a nine week baby. So, no, we're done. And so they ended up. They told us, you know, you can have a dnc, but we prefer for you to try to pass this naturally. Like, we don't want to go in and mess with stuff if we don't have to. And I was like, I'm all for that. He said, if it gets to be too painful, go to the er. And I'm like, okay. And in my naivete was like, why would it be painful? Such an idiot. There's so, so many moments where I look back and I'm like, girl, you are so foolish. But anyway, so we finished with that. I did end up having to go to the hospital because it was ridiculously painful. Like, I just, for whatever reason, did not think, like, girl, you're gonna go into labor to expel this. Yeah, I just didn't think about it. I guess I just thought it would be like, normal period. It's not. It is not like normal period. If your normal periods here, ladies, if your normal periods are akin to a miscarriage, you should see a doctor. That's not a normal period. You should get help for that, just FYI. Anyway, so afterward, like, you talked about, like, the panic attacks. I don't know until this moment that I would have registered them as panic attacks. I always just kind of assumed that it was just like hormone roller coaster kind of stuff, like, not panic. But the shame overwhelmed me. And then, like, it was. I'm talking like two, maybe three months later, and I was still dealing with this overwhelming feeling of how am I ever going to tell Ben that we can't have babies? And in my head, I had decided that this was my punishment for having had an abortion. Like, God's not gonna let you have babies now. You can get pregnant, but you can't carry them because you got rid of his. Sorry about it. And it took me a long time. And I had a. I had a conversation with my friend Beth, who actually is the girl who introduced me to Ben. And she said, I don't know who you've been talking to, but that's not how Jesus rolls. Like, that's not how God works. He's not. He's not out to get us, and he's not out to punish you. Have you asked for forgiveness? And I was like, well, yeah. And she said, then it's gone. Yeah. What's he punishing you for? He doesn't remember. And I was like, oh, my gosh. And that was like the. Literally the first time in my whole life that the whole. Like, your sin is in the sea of forgetfulness. It's as far as the east is to the west. Like, God doesn't have that anymore. Like, when he forgives, it is clean and gone. You're absolved. It's not like he's keeping a tally and he's saying, okay, but there's still punishment for this. Yeah. You know, do we have consequences of our own actions? Of course. And it's got a just God. Yes. But it's not punishment for something that you've already asked for forgiveness for. And he's not going to continue to, you know. Yeah. Because if this carriage is not a punishment. No. At all. And just if you can think, like we mentioned this last time, if you think about God as a father, a good father, not a bad father, a good father, but you don't. If you are a good parent, you don't keep punishing your child for something that they have, first of all, said they were sorry for. Right. And accepted the consequences of that. And then you just keep on punishing. That's not how he rolls, not how he works. So then after that miscarriage, we were able to have two kids. So I don't think that I miscarried after that, but I did have terrible, terrible periods after I had Owen and. Which was my second child. And so I guess it is possible that I may have had, like, a miscarriage in there with just without knowing. And you'll know when you get to heaven. I'll know when I get to heaven if there's four baby. Well, two babies in heaven. Yeah. Versus Anymore. Yeah. I think I do think that, you know, I. What? I don't know. And I would like to know, but I guess I won't know till I get there. How old will these babies be? Yes. In my dream, he was not a child, but I don't Know if he will be a child in the other two, you know, I've named them all and I know after I prayed about naming them, you know, that's their name in my book, you know, But I don't know how old they'll be. I don't think I'll care at that point. I don't care. Just spend eternity with my kids is what, something else. Everything. That's what I want, you know, but if you are struggling with infertility, just remember God's eyes on the righteous. You know, he hears you before you even say anything, he hears you. And just because you may be suffering long doesn't mean that it's not going to be a speedy thing when it's done, you know, like, you know, I don't know. I don't know who's listening, but hang. In there for sure. Because God knows and he's. He hears everything, he sees everything. And just because you feel like it's not happening quickly, he's not bound by our time frame. And unfortunately that's hard to take. Sometimes is hard to take. It's hard to take that for us, this is, you know, years and years and years. And for him it is less than a little twinkle of his eye. Like it's so short for him. And I have said this to Jill, I heard on a podcast once, but I. It helps me think about in the terms of eternity. When you're thinking about eternity, how long really is your life here? If you live a good long, long life, it's still like a matter of two hours compared to eternity. So. Like a fly. Yeah. So if you are going through something hard right now, just gonna be a couple hours. You can do it a couple hours. You can do anything. I mean, it only made two hours. Like I'm saying two hours would be a long life. But if you're going through something that you felt has gone on and on and on, it's not that long. In the span of eternity, it's not that long. And hang in there because this is. I feel like we're looking at the end of the end times. And much longer. We'll be much longer. That's what I believe. Anyway. We're gonna get caught up out of here any minute. Maybe right now, maybe anyway. But take a break. Nope. But just still here. If you need prayer for real, you can email us at. Something. The new email address is chapter and verse podcast gmail.com and we will be praying for you. Yeah, I think the other thing that we might want to Touch on a little bit because we do have a little bit of time left is maybe postpartum issues. Because I feel like you hit the nail on the head a little bit earlier when you talked about how no one really talks about it. We're better about talking about it now than we certainly. Than we were when I had my first miscarriage and all the, like, years and years ago when all that went down. Nobody talked about it. But even. Even still, even though we're better about talking about it now, I think that people still. Still are reserved about it and neither one of us are in this situation right now. So it's safe for us to talk about. Yes. And we won't ever be in this situation again. Exactly. And that makes me so happy. I know. But I mean, I love. I love them all. Love them all. But I'm so glad I don't have any more. But yes, postpartum. I. I mean, I don't know if you did, but I experienced postpartum with two of them. I had postpartum hardcore with Chloe. Hardcore. And with Owen, it wasn't as bad. And I don't know if it was because I knew what to expect after having a baby, but I. I just felt like with Chloe, I. I loved Chloe. Like I do love Chloe. Like current love Chloe. Loved her then, love her now. But in those moments I would just have like these intrusive thoughts of like, car accidents where we both die. Like, what if I just drove off this cliff? Like we lived. We lived up a mountain and there were definite like pull offs and. And like careens down the mountain. And I would think, what if I just drove that way instead of going on the road? Like, what if I went straight when the road curved? That'd be all right. But you were terrible. Depressed. But I was depressed, but no one would talk about it. So I didn't recognize. Girl, you need help at all. It was. It was rough. Well, I was. I had depression after my first. Didn't really know what it was. Just chalked it up to. Is your first kid. Yeah, it's hard. It's really hard. It's. It's okay to feel like you don't know what you're doing. And I did not feel like I knew what I was doing that passed. But the second kid, fine. Tinley was fine. And then the third kid, major, Major postpartum to the point where I didn't realize I was depressed. And I felt like everybody around me knew I was like, especially in my house. So I went to the Doctor because of Bobby's insistence and plus I was having back issues and stuff. And so we went and the doctor, we were both in the room and. He said something about this wasn't your OB doctor. Right. Like this was just your general primary care. General doctor. Because I wanted to get some stuff for my back. Right. Did not go in there to get antidepressants. But I was sitting there and just fine. And he was like, are you happy? And I was like, I'm happy. And he was like, are you, Are you depressed at all? And I said, no. And I, I knew a little bit I was lying to him. I didn't know how much I was lying to him. But. But you're also, you're a pastor. Yeah. This is the third time, you know, that you've done this. I'm supposed to be saying about this. I know what I'm doing. Yeah. He. I looked at Bobby and Bobby was shaking his head no and looking at the doctor like, she's not happy and she. Or she's depressed. He was doing something with his head. And I just went, ah. I kind of like laughed at him. And then I looked back at the doctor and burst into tears. It's such a movie thing to have happen. But like, that's what happens sometimes. Yeah. And he was like, the doctor is like, it's not supposed to be that way, is it? And that made me cry harder. And he was an older, older doctor. And he's. He pointed to my forehead. He said, I could tell by your forehead when you walked in by your form. Yes. And I don't know what that means, but that made me cry harder. He was like, he point. I guess there were lines or something. I was like, oh, my goodness. And I guess there were lines. Yeah. Like that's why. Oh my. He said, I'm gonna put you on the lowest dose of something. Zoloft. Is that something? Yeah, a kid sized dose. And I was like, kid size? Yes. And even back then there was so much. And that was just 13 years ago. Yeah. Like, I was like, I'm not taking that. Bobby's like, yes, you are. Well in stigma in the church especially. And I took it and I was grateful and I'm not on it anymore. And even if I was, it's fine. But like, I remember staying on it for maybe six months until my hormones leveled and noticed a difference right away. And so did my family. But, you know, sometimes you just need the help. Sometimes you do. And it is important to get the help that is required. And listen to the people who are around you. Because I never would have gone in there and gotten that. And if Bobby had not been sitting by me, still wouldn't have gotten it. Yeah, but. And Bobby's not, like, aggressive and, like, you're going to do this. Like, he's not like, that type of person. But when he was shaking his head yes, I just remember thinking, what have I been like? Like, have I been a monster? I had that same thought when I first got put on medicine. It wasn't this. I didn't get treated for my postpartum depression because I just was a fool and didn't get treated it. But it. When I did get put on antidepressants, which is after dad died, so funny. I didn't realize how badly I was just out of control. And I mean, here's a little teaser for you, because this is another part of the chapters that we'll get into at some point to come, but. So my dad was murdered two times. You've been touched by murder. I've been affected by violence in the city of Flint two times in my life, both resulting in the murder of people close to me. So this was not a situation where, like, I had, like, a chance to say goodbye to my dad or, like, that we could ease into. This was not a cancer situation where, like, it was. We knew it was coming. This was very, very abrupt. And also, I lived a thousand miles away from him. So it. It was. It was harder. And we weren't particularly close, we. But it was harder than I thought it was going to be, and it was harder than I was willing to admit it was being. So I ended up. We were on a. I'd gone to the doctor for something else completely. And she asked me about that, and I said, I'm. I'm good. And she was like, really? Your dad was murdered? I was like, yeah, but I'm all right. And burst into tears. In the middle of saying the word all right, I burst into tears. And she was like, it doesn't seem like you are. And I was like, well, what was. Your first clue, Doc? Yeah. And she goes, I think we should consider some medication assistance. And I was like, okay. And that's okay. It is okay. I just remember when I got home, I did say to my, what? Why did you think I needed it? He goes, you burst into tears When I boiled something and it burned a little bit, like, melted the plastic. You burst into tears. I remember that. I remember you being so upset. He burned like a pacifier. Yeah. And I was like, oh, yeah. He goes, it was. It was something replaceable and you couldn't stop crying about it. Yeah. And I was like, yeah, yeah, I remember that. So there was nothing pointing at with my family, like, to be able to, like, pinpoint or that they were willing. To say to me, they're too scared. Yeah, they were. But I remember we were driving, like, just to show you, like, how you really can tell a difference when you're taking your medicine appropriately and you're on the right medicine and you're treating stuff as you should. We were on a car trip and we had. I don't know about y', all, but we snack out in car trips. So we had like the party size bag of Skittles, right? And we were in this. We were in Ben's truck. Chloe and Owen were in the backseat, obviously. And Chloe opened up the bag of Skittles and Ben said, be careful with that. Don't spill it. And she was like, duh. You know, because she's a teenager or whatever. And we're driving along and Ben had to stop really abruptly. And all I heard was, oh. And I just started cackling like I could not control myself. I was laughing so hard. And the. But the whole rest of the car was silent. Like they did not know what to do. They expected me to, like, fly off the handle. And I just started laughing. And Ben was like, are you okay? And I was like, I just keep thinking of the sound. It sounded like a waterfall. And she was like the rainbow. She said I'd only had like three. So the entire bag fell out onto the floor of the truck. So for months, we were finding Skittles in the floorboard of the truck. It was crazy. But literally, had that happened before the medicine, I probably would have yelled at her. Yeah. For the duration of the car trip. Yeah. Like the next six hours sometimes. Those meds help. All the time. Those meds help. If you're using it correct way. If you're doing them appropriately with a doctor's guidance. Yeah, but. Well, get the help you need. Don't be ashamed and rely on Jesus and get you a tribe around you. I think is the most. I don't know how. First of all, I don't know how people do life nowadays without God. I am amazed when I find out they're living in life this day and age without God. I'm like, okay, I mean, great, if you can do it, but I mean, you can also so much harder. Why would you want to Also just your. The people around you find your People pray about finding your people and God will send them. So anyway, just hang on to those people when you. When you get them. Yep. Because they can help. Help you walk through it, but. Okay, are we gonna do a question? Yes, let's do a question. Okay, we're gonna pause here for a second, Tal, because I need to look up a question. We can do the monkey fingers. We're not doing monkey fingers. I like that one. I've got. I've got the if book pulled up. Let's just see. Okay, what about this one? It says if you could go back in time as yourself to live for one year at any point in history, what year would you choose and where would you go? But you can't choose Jesus. What do you mean? Because, like, everybody would be like, I want to go back to when Jesus is so not Jesus. Okay, so I'm gonna preface it. Go ahead. Okay, Say it. Here we go. Start. Okay, so our question for this week. I'm gonna put a preface on it. You cannot say, like, biblical Bible times, because obviously we would do Bible times. But if you could go back in time as yourself to live for one year at any point in history other than Bible times, what year would you choose and where would you go? I would choose the 50s, because I know the food was real and good and not a bunch of junk added to it, and women were. This is gonna sound so bad. It was just. Women weren't expected to do all the things. I mean, keep the house. I don't know. I just want to experience it for a year. Where, you know, down. Here's new. New episode idea. Write it down. We're gonna talk about the ridiculous pressure on women in today's age. I'm not saying that everything was great and good and wonderful, certainly that time, but I'm just saying I would like to experience that for a year. For a year, yeah. Mainly the food. But what about you? Gosh, I don't know, because part of me is like, I would like to go back to, like, the 1700s. I knew you were gonna say that. I swear up and down. I'd be burned as a witch. You'd back talk, and people be like. I would be like, hey. Instead of. Let's just say you have. You have protection. Oh, with protection. Yeah. For you. I don't know, because you're going to. The 50s because you're nice. You'd have all the protection you needed, and nothing would happen to you. All the protection I'm needed, and I'm. Assured that I'm not going to get burned at the stake. I'm going 1700. It's probably, like, 1780s, and probably, like, I'm protected. Like, I wanna. I want to hit, like, Massachusetts. I want to be around, like, the revolution. I want to watch it. Okay. Like a year. We want to watch you do it. Take the podcast stuff. You can do it. Take the podcast. You won't let us use video. Oh, yeah, that's true. No, it's okay. We'll get video eventually, y'. All. I'll wear her down. All right, well, thank you for joining us today, and we will sign off now. And we hope you enjoyed it. We hope you enjoy the next one. We have a whole lot planned. More to come. More to come. Turn the page. Okay.