Ep. 95: The Future of Hunting in Canada

The BC grizzly bear hunt, indigenous hunting, federal gun bans and much more. Nothing is off limits in this information packed episode of the Silvercore Podcast with BC Wildlife Federation executive director Jesse Zeman.

Jesse is an incredibly informed and articulate advocate for conservation. Jesse shares his thoughts on the future of hunting and provides actionable steps that everyone can utilize for the betterment of our shared resources.

 

BC Wildlife Federation: https://bcwf.bc.ca/

Online Hunter Education: https://bcwf.coretmr.ca/ 

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What is The Silvercore Podcast with Travis Bader?

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I'm Travis Bader

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I'm joined today by a UBC grad
in economics, business or sustainability.

Did his undergrad thesis.

Hunt Recruitment and retention.

His master's thesis on preferences and
willingness to pay for wildlife management

and is currently the executive director
of the British Columbia

Wildlife Federation.

Welcome to the Silvercore podcast.

Jesse Zeman Thanks, Travis.

You know, even though this is about B.C.

and you've got a big role within
the British Columbia Wildlife Federation,

your areas of study and your expertise
was something that I think would be useful

for people
all throughout North America and beyond.

And you've got very keen

insight into what it is
we're going to be talking about today

and a lot of respect from people who have
been working with you and around you

and even those who just kind of follow
you casually on forums.

And I was funny because in doing
a little bit of research for this podcast,

I came across a quote here and it says,
I admire Jesse and his efforts.

He is horribly intelligent
and is extremely dedicated

to our wildlife concerns.

And I thought, who better to have

on the Silvercore podcast
to share his thoughts

on wildlife management, on Hunter
retention and Hunter recruitment than you.

So again, thank you for joining me here.

Yeah, thanks.

Those are very kind words for someone who
must not know me that well.

So you've been involved with the Wildlife
Federation and for a long time.

I think in your...
you're an airline pilot

by by trade on top of everything else
here.

And you decided to jump in and work

at the Federation, which probably

in some respects people would look at
and say, well, I bet you

it doesn't pay
as much as being an airline pilot.

Why would this guy do this?

Why would.

What what is it that drives you?

Yeah, that's yeah,
that's certainly the case.

You definitely work
a lot more and get paid a lot less.

That is true.

My. My time at the B.C.
Wildlife Federation.

I've been involved since I was a kid.

Probably since as far back
as I can remember.

Involved in the Oceola Club,
which is in Lake Country,

kind of in the interior of British
Columbia.

And and started under a fellow
named Ron Taylor,

who is one of the original members of the
Habitat Conservation Trust Foundation.

You know,
big name in the conservation movement.

So he kind of got me started as a kid,
you know, into hunting and fishing,

fishing as young as I was,
you know, two or three years old

and kind of just took that on and got
started into some stewardship projects.

So I've kind of been
a lifelong BCWF member.

And and the passion for it
really just comes in seeing the change

and realizing the change
in fish and wildlife populations and

all of the effects that we now realize,
you know, where we're down.

And in Ladner right
beside the Fraser River here or close to there

and you talk to some of the folks
that are older than our generation

and they used to have
sockeye returns every year there

where they could go fishing.

And then it went

to, you know, once every other year
and then it went to once every four years.

And now, you know, the likelihood is
we probably won't see another sockeye

fishery
for the foreseeable future in the river.

Or if we do, it's going to be, you know,
very marginal once every four years.

So that's
kind of the passion is recognizing that,

you know, what I've experienced
and what the people before me experience.

My kids are probably not going to get

that opportunity unless people
who really care about these resources

put their hands up and say,
we're not okay with what's going on.

We want to see change.

We want to see sustainable fish
and wildlife populations.

So that's the motivation.

So that sounds like a pretty uphill
battle personally.

I mean, it sounds like you're

you'd be banging your head
against a brick wall at times because

best laid plans,
you can put together a full

thesis and paper and stats
and everything on it, but

you're going to have layers of bureaucracy

and you're going to have different
political climates.

So they're going to affect
how those decisions are being made.

How do you deal with that?

Yeah, Yeah.

A lot of sleepless nights for sure.

I mean, the the very interesting thing,
if we cut right to the core in British

Columbia, you know, politics,
there are politicians

who are intrinsically motivated who really
get into it for the right reasons.

There are a lot of personalities,
but the reality of it in B.C.

is that quite often
the provincial election is won

and lost by 60
to 80000 votes across the province.

Sometimes far less than that.

And there's a number of areas
where things are always close, right?

And so when we look at
how many people hunt,

you know, 110,000
plus people that buy a license every year

between fresh water and saltwater
licenses, you're talking

over 500,000 licenses that are sold.

If you can get those people to stand up
and advocate for Fish and Wildlife

and let elected officials
know that what they're doing is an okay

and they want to see change,
you will get changes in

how fish wildlife is managed
and how conservation is applied.

So so that's kind of like
the ultimate goal is to get people

to herd the cats
in a way where they're vocal

about what's important to them,
where they engage with their MLAs.

And I think you'll see change

that strategically.

You can definitely hunters and anglers could 100% control

the outcome of the provincial election
if they were all on the same page and not

That would not be a hard, hard feat
in that sense.

And like any any group of people,
there's always going to be classes

within that group

that they look at, trying
to make distinctions between each other.

They'll say, Well, I'm a sport shooter.

I'm not a hunter.

I'm a I'm a rifle shooter.

I'm not a pistol shooter.

And there's a level of divisiveness
in there.

I would think that
it would be extremely difficult

to get people to self advocate.

And I think you're probably fighting a

a traditional sense
of co-opting responsibility for advocating

to a third party, because in days of
old people would say, well,

I belong to the Wildlife

Federation or I belong to whatever
it might be, I pay my money.

What are they doing for me?

And what we're really seeing as we move
forward

is the empowerment of the individual.

Like the Internet has really empowered
the individual.

A.I and that's an interesting thing
I'm kind of looking at as well

because I got an expert in A.I.

they just did a podcast with
and another one

who's a futurist who I'm talking
with, talking about how A.I.

is changing the whole paradigm of people
and commoditizing essentially knowledge

and how moving forward,
the trend is going to be went

from physicality
to intelligence to now uniqueness.

The individuals.

So I think you're going to see
a growing push

that's going to be assisting in people,
recognizing and realizing that

their own unique voice has a heck of a lot
more power than it ever has in the past.

But how are you looking at this?

How is it something that the Federation
is kind of looking at

mobilizing the individuals to advocate?

Yeah.

So yeah, that that is always
so when we talk strictly, you know,

advocacy is one part of our
of our business.

We've got a whole bunch of different parts

But in terms of mobilizing people,
in a lot of cases, it's education.

There's also we we get this like feeling
of hopelessness from a lot of people

where it's like, well, I'm exactly
you're saying I'm just one person.

My MLA is never going to listen to me.

It's a waste of my time to go see them.

And that's part of the,
you know, the hurdle

that we got to get over is people
recognizing that their time is valuable,

that their MLAs in person
appreciate them coming in

and having an exchange of knowledge
or lobbying or advocacy or whatever.

And so Bill C 21 is a prime example
where people are finally getting mobilized

and, you know,
we kind of talked about this off air.

I think what you alluded to
is that, you know, there's these factions

and so you have like the sports
shooting community who maybe not doesn't hunt

you have hunters who obviously shoot
that's part of their business.

And and I think, you know, in the past
you had people saying, well, I don't hunt,

so why should I care?
I don't support shoots.

So why should I care?

Well, you should care
because you have overlapping interests

in the sense that, you know, hunters
need sports shooters and sports shooters

need hunters in the sense that there are
a ton of sports shooters that adds numbers

to people who care about firearms
or using firearms.

On the flip side, sports shooting
social license is very

clearly tied to people hunting, right?

So the public doesn't necessarily support
people who just shoot.

And that's not their fault.

That's really more spillover
from what goes on in the States.

But the reality is, is
everybody is on the same team and going,

I care about what you do.

You care about what I do.

Let's jointly work together to advocate.

You are going to be much more powerful
than if you say, Well, I don't hunt

and I don't care about sports shooting,
so I'm just going to go my own way.

And so I think that's part of this broader
realization.

And it's the same in the world
of Fish and Wildlife, right?

We now have this Fish Wildlife
and Habitat Coalition, which is 29 groups,

I think makes up, you know, there's over
900 sustainable businesses, 275,000

plus people who have,
you know, five years ago

couldn't even stand to be in the same room
together, really like it was

I was at I was at a pile of those meetings
where people

just, like, instantly
cut loose on each other.

But everybody's coming
upon this realization that, look,

you know, I you know,

if you're a non hunter, you're like,
I really care about grizzly bears.

Well, guess what?

Grizzly bears also need salmon, right?

And we all care about salmon
and we all care about the sustainability

of grizzly bears,
the sustainability of caribou.

So these little tiny things that we don't
agree on, why don't we set that aside?

Because there's bigger,
more important issues.

You know, there's bigger fish to fry

than these little tiny nuances, because if
we all head off in our own direction,

we know that things are going to get worse
for shooting or for conservation.

So that's really the message, I think,
and that's part of the mental bridge

that we got to get over.

And so how are we focusing on that?

We just recently added a conservation
hunting,

angling and sports
shooting engagement coordinator.

So that person's role really
is going to be building community

within our different constituencies and
talking to people and educating people.

That's a that's a big part of it.

We're also kind
of stepping up the world of education.

We already do a ton of education,
but we're going to be offering

some more products to kind of bring in,

you know, we're

seeing increased female participation
in things like hunting and angling.

They're both becoming more family
oriented activities.

And so supporting that transition,

again,
is good for hunting and conservation

and angling because there's more people
that care about the resource.

But under that, again, like it's it's

these activities are stigmatized
in the sense

that typically it's been a white male, older

who does these things
and people find that unrelatable.

But if we have all these other people
who are coming in to these activities

and reaching out
and touching the rest of their community,

hunting
suddenly becomes far more palatable.

And we're seeing that right?

Like, I mean, I recall even 15 years ago
where if you talked about hunting

in British Columbia,
you were instantly sent death threats.

And, you know, it's in the Vancouver Sun,
you know, the province is out to train,

you know, ten year old killers
and those sorts of things.

And now that discussion has changed
big time right now,

like there's like the local food movement
and people are moving

towards hunting because they're concerned
about where their meat comes from.

They want to source it ethically. So.

So I guess what I'm saying is, you know,
we can all be a bow

hunter or a rifle hunter
or a sports shooter, a fly fisher.

But we should all be on the same page
in terms of taking care of this resource,

in terms of making sure

that everybody has access to it
so they can go out hunting and fishing.

And if we can get raise it up that level,
we're going to be a lot better off.

Yeah,
if you can create a hierarchical approach,

I mean, not that the concerns
of these different groups are invalid,

but perhaps there's something
that can be approached

a little bit later on down the line after
some of the big blocks are set in place.

And that gives you a strong foundation.

Yeah. Yeah.

I think I mean there's we do we have

we have clubs
that have had internal struggles between,

you know, the IPSC and the Trap shooters
and all the rest of that stuff.

And you know, that the reality is, is like
if we can't

people can't use handguns, IPSC
going to go the way of the dodo, right?

And if we so so you know,
you got to set those things aside.

You got to make sure that you're

not trying to marginalize each other
and you got to go, okay, if we all work

together, we're going to get
to a better place in time.

Then if we all fight
amongst ourselves, Right?

That's that
that's one of the big challenges.

You know, I had someone on the podcast
before, very intelligent person,

and she was saying talking
about ego in hunting.

Yeah.

I'm like,
I don't know what you're talking about.

Right?

And you know, she's going in.

She's like,
I get you know, some people have ego,

but it made me pause and look at
and really analyze

the the thought of the ego in in
what's involved.

And you find it everywhere.

But I think she was correct.

That's Jenny Lee.

Jenny Li, am I pronouncing it right?

You're right.

She said it both ways to me. Yeah, yeah,

that I think she is very correct in so far
as you know,

money and power
seem to be the two things that

can create the most strife for people,
whether that's real

money or real power or perceived money
or perceived power.

I'm I'm the captain of my gun club
or I'm the head ring safety officer.

Okay, fair enough. Right.

That's a different elevation of position
or whatever it might be.

And it seems to me that that is
that she hit the nail on the head,

that that is the barrier
to having people kind of work together.

If people can kind of

take a step back

and put the ego aside and really,

truly look at what it is
that's going to benefit the group the most

and maybe swallow that difficult
pill, work together with your

the person who you've been feuding with
because of whatever it might be

for the last little,
so that you can both see

the realization of a shared goal.

Yeah, that's but that's a

that's a huge thing unto itself because,

you know, egos
tied into basically everything.

And you know, in the firearms world,
they see it a lot too.

I got a gun. I'm pretty special, right?

I mean, in the States,

everyone and their Grandma has a gun and it's
a completely different personality.

I work with firearms
instructors. Well, I'm an instructor.

I got to be extra special
because I teach it now. Right. And

learning that

coming to the realization
that we're all in this game together.

And I think Shane Mahoney actually said
it really well before

when he's talking about the animals
and how we manage them.

And he says, you know, it's
not that I'm better than the animals, it's

not that I have dominion over the animals.

I mean, the animals will all have things
that they can do

better than me,
the bear is stronger than me, right?

The the cougar is going
to be faster than me.

The deer has got better ears
than me, right?

There's all these different things.

But the question is,
is that we are actually one of the animals

and we have to find a way to work together
in a holistic way.

Yeah, Yeah, I think that's accurate.

I mean, Shane does spend a lot of time
thinking about this stuff

and it is accurate.

And I think it we're seeing it
our it's already happening like this,

this kind of shift in in why
and when and who picks up hunting

and who picks up angling has changed right
This was you know

40 years ago hunting was essentially
a male dominated Caucasian activity.

And now there's more and more people
that are getting into it.

And I think that's great, right?

Like you will find some people
with in a much older demographic

who, you know, oh,

in my day, you know, men and boys went out
hunting a blah blah blah

And it's like, that's great in your day.

But in our day,
everybody goes out hunting.

And so these people,
I guess, you know, ego is part of it.

It's it's how they relate to hunting
and how they were brought up.

Seeing, hunting.

And the view about hunting
now is different.

And I think it's a good thing.
I mean, I think there's

you know,

there's a ton of value in getting people
hooked into these activities.

And I think that's the broader part,
too, is hunters.

As hunters, we often find ourselves
in competition with other hunters, right?

So if you're out somewhere and it's busy
and you're running into people,

quite often hunters
get really bent out of shape.

There's people everywhere.

I'm tripping over them.

I can't believe this blah blah blah

And it's like, well, like,
you know, hunters in British Columbia

probably make up 3%
of the whole population.

There is a whole bunch of people

that probably support
hunting or forms of hunting,

but there's also a bunch of people
that are opposed to hunting.

Mm hmm. Right.

So I would rather go out in the bush
and run into someone who's out

enjoying the same activity
that supports conservation and go, Hey,

I'm going to go up this drainage.

You go up that drainage, have a great day,
or let's work together on this,

rather than running into someone who hates
what I'm doing and hates me for it.

Right. I love that.

So it's like a totally
it's like I mean, all these things to me

when people see, you know,
have an interest in these activities,

it's like I want to bring you into this
for a number of reasons.

And same, you know,
as it relates to BCWF is,

we want to train up
and I'm sure it's the same for you.

We want to train up
people who are confident and understand

how to say if we hold a firearm, handle
a firearm, harvest an animal, like

we want these people
to have the best experience possible,

because the worst thing you can do

is get somebody who goes,
I want to get into hunting.

And the first time they go out,
they harvest something that's illegal.

They get a fine and they quit
hunting. Right? Right.

So, you know, even if you're talking
about firearms instructors,

you know, in my mind

as a firearms instructor
or as a core instructor,

you want to be putting through
the best students

that you possibly can to prepare them
for hunting so that they enjoy hunting,

so that they're good stewards
for these activities, so that it reflects

well on the public. Right.

So all things
that we think about all the time, 100%,

you know, we've always taken
the approach of: there’s material

People need to know to pass a test.

We can sit here
and we can just teach that material,

They can go, they can leave,
and they go: “ok I passed my tests. Now what?”

Or we can instill our passion

for what it is that we do through example

and try and have people adopt a

a mental process or a lifestyle of safety,
of ethics, of community.

And we’ve worked really hard

to be able to do that since 1994
when I started doing the the training.

And we found that it's
been it's been quite successful.

And when I say look around others
that are successful in the field, do it.

Do it very similarly.

But you brought up,
oh my God, so many things.

I'm I'm taking notes
as we're going through here.

Recruitment and retention,

paying for conservation
talking about memberships, Grizzly bear.

I’ve read something about black bears.

We might want to talk about that too

what the

Federation stands for, C21, Demographics.

Food is a vehicle
like there's a whole bunch of things

and I'm trying to mentally
just kind of put this into an order.

Yeah, that doesn't have
us jumping around too much.

But I think an interesting area would be,

you know, and this would probably apply
to those in British Columbia.

Everyone, when they're saying, hey, what's
what's the federation doing for me?

Yeah.

Understanding what the Federation's
mission

statement is or what it
is that the Federation stands for.

Because so often I see people look at it
and say, Well, I'm a duck hunter

I’m into waterfowl or I'm
a firearms owner or I'm an angler.

From my understanding,
the federation wasn't designed

for any one of those groups in particular,
but for the management,

the long term
smart management of our natural resources.

But you can, yeah, steer
that in the right way.

Yeah, there's the,
I mean you can hand out the vision

statement and mission statement.

but really it's about taking care
of nature, essentially taking care

of these resources, representing people

who hunt, fish, trap, sport shoot

advocate on their behalf, advocate
on behalf of conservation.

But the other piece, too, is to engage
and instill awareness in the public.

And so there's like so there's like
a whole bunch of different parts

to our business.

I mean, we do education, right? So

core is one of them.

One of our programs becoming an outdoor
is women, women outdoors,

we do wetlands education,
we have our conservation webinars.

So that is all engaging

not only our members, but also the public
our conservation webinars

As we get elected,
officials we’ll get members of Parliament,

which is our federal government
we’ll get members the Legislative Assembly,

which is the provincial government
on those to learn about them

a bunch of our stuff is outreach
in terms of media.

Last year in just by December, we are in,

I think, 1400 different new just newspaper
articles, never mind TV and radio.

And so that reach
in terms of the viewership,

it would have reached something over
400 million Canadians last year.

Right.

So that's a huge part of what
we're trying to change.

Like those numbers are up
big time over 2021 because a lot of it

we're realizing is we have a ton of access

to federal and provincial ministers
and MLAs.

We meet with them and advocate.

But the public having our public engage
in, having our members

engage, in having hunters and anglers
who are nonmembers engage,

makes huge strides
in terms of policy decision making, right?

So media engaging the public advocacy,
I would say, is really where we're

where we're well-poised,
given the size of our membership

and the activities we do, but we also do
a ton of on the ground stewardship right?

So in terms of fish habitat,
wetlands restoration,

we're probably going to deliver
just just right around

$5 million worth of on the ground
wetlands and water projects.

This year

we'll deliver

well north of $1,000,000 in terms
of terrestrial wildlife conservation.

So assigned to your mule deer project,
we got three

large controlled burn projects on the go.

We're funding, I think we've got three

PhD students who are doing
wildlife conservation science for us.

We've got one that's doing a post-doc
on interior Fraser Steelheads.

So it's kind of like science
on the ground,

stewardship,
a ton of education and a ton of advocacy.

We do a bunch of work for the clubs
in terms of

advocacy, but also, you know, we're trying
to build more of a sense of community.

We have a bunch of support for ranges
in terms of lead management,

noise management that we use
to support them to ensure that our ranges

are sustainable and that they're not
on the wrong side of provincial law.

And then we also provide insurance.

I mean, so there's a whole bunch of parts
to our business. Right

I guess it's difficult
to be everything to everyone.

Yeah.

And you're never going to be that.

Yeah, but at the crux of it,
it's about the conservation,

a wise use of our resources

and I guess if we step back
to that hierarchical approach,

if we're able to address that, the other
things should hopefully fall in line.

Now, you brought up now
we're talking about people

self advocating,
talking to their MP’s or MLAs.

Bill C 21

So I you know, we've had some discussions
about that here on the podcast.

And I had someone said, Trav,
what's your MP had to say about this?

I'm like, you know,
I've spoken with her in the past.

She's really nice.

You know, we get along just fine,
but I never see anything really

come of things right? And thought, Well,
you know what?

Got to do it anyways.

You got to go in there. So call her up.

And I had a really long conversation,
really insightful

actually learning that the division
within the ranks on how,

how c21 is being rolled out
and you know, without her

putting her foot in her mouth but yet
reading between the lines on things

and things aren't all right on that.

And in fact, my name's been put forward
to be a witness in the hearings.

So we'll we'll see where that goes
if it happens.

So better make sure I'm talking to Smart
people like yourself and others

to make sure I'm
putting our best foot forward.

But, even from in my position

and being down the road
so many times and talking

with others within the Federation, like,
Oh, you're going to get nowhere with it.

But all of them went through it and did it
anyways.

That negative mindset of “we're messed up to begin with.

You know what, if the boat's sinking?

Yeah, because it's taken on water.

What do you do? Yeah.

You just rowed
ashore faster or keep bailing.

Yeah. Don't give up. Yeah.

And I'm finding some,
some really positive results

from that mentality over the years.

Yeah.

Yeah, there's, yeah, there's,
there's a number of things to consider.

So in the world of advocacy, you know,
everybody does like,

fill out this online form,
write a form letter that goes to an MLA

Now I'm done.

I mean, that is like,
that is like decimal dust.

That is like a speck of sand
on the largest beach in the world.

Right? Means nothing.

The next part
is like a personalized letter.

You know, your elected officials
assistant might read it, might tabulate

how many they get the next you know,
the next part is the in-person meeting.

And that is worth orders of magnitude
more than the other two combined

right?, like, I mean, like 20,000
letters is like one visit.

And so, you know, the feeling
that you get after meeting with your MLA

or MP is different depending on if they're
in opposition or what their position is.

But the reality is, is that you are able

to influence these people
and their decision and educate them.

And so, when we talk about MLAs and MP’s
There are very few that hunt or fish

or that shoot, right?

And so they don't know what
this is all about.

And when they get a briefing note

from their cabinet or their caucus, it
says, Well, here's

the party, here's the party line,
we want you to tow it right.

They're not exposed to who uses firearms,
how do they use them,

What's the licensing scheme?

How many times a day
are these people checked?

They don't have.

That's a huge knowledge gap on their end.

And so if you spend the time to
educate them and build their relationship,

they are going to get it.

And even if they don't portray to you

that they're going to take it back
to Ottawa and raise a bunch of,

you know, what about it, Yeah,
they're going to do that, right?

So when you're in government,
your job is to listen, write stuff down,

but you are not supposed to externalize
if you're opposed to it.

That goes back to caucus.

And so, you know, if Travis walks in
and 200 Travis’ friends walk into

a member of government of the party
in power and say this is offside,

you may not feel like you got very far,
but when they go back to their next

caucus meeting, they're going to go,
why do I have all these firearms

owners and hunters
in my constituency office raising

heck over

what's going on and why are they giving me

a different line
than what you're feeding me?

Right, right, right.

So they're going to start
to ask questions.

And the same goes the opposition,
right. All here all the time.

Oh, well, my my MLA is a member
of the opposition, so it doesn't matter.

Well,
it matters for a whole bunch of reasons.

One is that the opposition can make
the government's life really hard.

Right?

And they can talk to the media
and they can basically slam

the government for what they're doing.

The other piece that we all have to
consider is it seems like in Canada,

and B.C., is that we don't vote governments
in, we vote governments out.

Right.

So so one of the one of the biggest
learning moments that I had with

with a minister was the minister said,
you know,

the reason why I always met with you
is because you took the time

to meet with me when I was a backbencher
before I was minister.

He said, Look, as a minister, I don't
remember any of the meetings that I had.

My schedule is completely jammed.

You know, you're running from point
A to point B, but the reason why

I always made sure
that you got a meeting with me

and that I listened to you is because
you spent the time at the front end

when I was an opposition MLA, for
starters, and that's why you got access.

So these are like long term relationships
that you establish.

You become trusted by your MLA or your MP

and and be like a legitimate person
and tell them how important it is.

The other the other the last piece
that I'll just mention to you is

people always go: “well, you’re going to go into this meeting.

I don't want to sound like
I don't know what I'm talking about.”

All these people need to get across
is that you're unhappy.

Here are the reasons why and

Here's how important it is to you.

Because when we come back to this,

like what you said is politicians
like two things, money and votes.

Right?

And if they're worried that the votes
are not going to come,

you're going to change their mind.

You're going to change that party's mind,
and they will move

in a different direction.

And I think that's part of, you know,
there is a lot of inertia

behind the opposition to C 21
where the public is starting to bite.

And that's where the BCWF, I think
has been really well positioned because

we've been able to talk to you like CBC
Radio, CBC, some of the media outlets

that probably seem more left
leaning are giving us a lot of airtime

and talking about this, not in the sense
that gun owners are bad people.

They're actually getting

through to the facts and starting to call
that the government of Canada out on it.

And so,

you know,

I guess what I’m saying is all of this works,
you might not feel great

after your meeting with your MP
or your MLA, but you're having an effect.

That's their job.

Their job is to not show emotion,
to not say, I'm going to take this back.

They got to tow the party line, right?

It's like being on a team.

You might be a fourth line hockey player
and you might not get much ice time,

but you're not going to go complain
to the coach, right?

I really like that because so
often people lose fact of the lose

sight of the fact
that they're just people like you or I.

Yeah, they have the same motivations.

They got the same things

that hurt their feelings,
that make them uncomfortable or upset.

You treat them with respect.

You know, there's a saying,
Oh, it's not personal.

Jesse, this is just business.

And I've always taken the approach.

My business is built on relationships.

Those relationships
take time to establish are built on trust,

which are and trust can be easily broken.

All business is personal.

Building those personal connections
and relationships

is what helps grow a business
from nothing to something.

And it's what is going to help.

If you treat any one of these issues
as a business problem

is, I think, going to help see resolution
favorably

if you can have that relationship,
because it's really hard

to have a really good relationship

with Jesse, but then go do something
which, you know, is completely off site.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You yeah.

The and you'll find interesting in C 21
like when you you know people don't,

you know nerd out in the policy world
and watch what's going on in Ottawa

but you will find that
two of the MP’s

who are in the NDP
caucus have been raising like major grief

in Ottawa about Bill C 21
and those are both MPs

where our clubs have, you know,
established relationships with them

to help educate them like come out to our
we're going to have a range day, come out to our range

Let's show you how this works
and what the process is.

And so those people are up to speed
and now they're asking questions, right?

So, yeah, I know I get the helplessness

or hopelessness feeling,
but it's you got to be resilient to that.

And and if you build those relationships
at a time over time, like the part

that I don't understand

as well is everybody
thinks, conservation is like, oh,

this party is the only party
that practice conservation.

It's a non partizan issue. Right? Right.

Like everybody cares about sustainability.

So the more that we can advocate and show
elected officials that this is our number

one issue, you know, I'm
a hunter and angler and my number one

issue as a British Colombian is X,
Y, and Z.

They're going to get the message.

I mean, they understand when people
are bent out of shape or when people

are passionate about it, and they'll do
everything they can to support it.

So, you know, mobilizing people,
providing people with the

the tools so that they can go out there
and speak and

have some confidence like, well, you say
I've heard that is a common barrier.

People said
I haven't had time to read the whole bill.

I don't know all the ins and outs.

You're an expert, right?

Can you go speak for me? Yeah.

And that idea of expert.

Well, who's an expert like I've been, I,

I've been a subject matter expert
in every level, of court.

And federal, provincial and municipal.

I've qualified as an expert
in certain issues.

And I will still look at myself

and look around and say, well,
look at that person over there.

They're an expert.

You know, I had a friend
who was climbing with another friend

who's a well accomplished client
where he’s a ACMG guide

and he says he was belaying at the bottom
girl comes up, says all “oh you’re a climber are you?”

And he says,
oh, no, no, I'm not a climber

He's like, Well, you got a harness
on, you've got shoes on.

And “well, I've only been a couple of times
before.” I said

Then. You're a climber.
Yeah, right. Yeah. Oh, got it.

And in the same way you know,
I look around and I see

I, I own a firearms business.

I'm into.

I enjoy precision rifle shooting,
pistol shooting, shotgun

shooting, I hunt,
and but I don't see myself as a gun guy.

And people come by and they look around

Trav, you're a gun guy. Yeah, right.

So I think for people
to just kind of realize that

if they're in it, even if they just dip
their toe a little bit in that pool.

Yeah, they're in the pool.

Yeah. Yeah.

Well, and, and,

and the extension of that
is they're going to know more than their MLA and MP

I mean, just, just defacto being involved
in the world of conservation or sports

shooting or hunting angling,

you most likely know more than 99%
of the elected officials

because they just don't know
anything about it. Right. Right.

So they're oblivious.
So you do not need to be an expert.

And as you said, like MLA’s and MP’s
it's a popularity contest.

They're every day people
there are some of them

that are really intelligent,
have tons of policy.

But there's a ton that or not
that literally one day were like I'm

going to run for politics,

I don't know what I'm doing,
but I'm going to give it a try.

And so I've been a teacher
for a little bit

and I thought, you know, I'm might try.

Yeah, I know.

Totally. Totally.
And that's that's our system, right?

That's our system. That's how it's built.

And so, yeah, as a as as someone
who's passionate about these things,

don't ever think that, that the person,
the MP that you're meeting

knows more than you
because they don't. Like you

are there really to build your relationship

You're there to educate them first
and then advocate, right?

So you want to be seen as a person

they can trust who gives them
good information that's reliable.

But yeah, you're going to know way

more than your MLA or MP
when you meet with them.

Yes, 100% the case.

So there's a mutual

acquaintance of ours
has introduced me to a term called GOWT.

I don't know if you've heard
that one before.

GOWT: grumpy old white dudes.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

I had never heard that term before,
but you were talking about demographics

within the the hunting community
and firearms community

and you touch on that a little bit
and yeah, it, it does traditionally

have this grumpy old
white dude, male dominated

people who

feel that they're having things
stripped away from them

and so they're always on the defensive,
which is probably why they come across

as grumpy.

But our demographics are so quickly
changing,

which is amazing.

You talk about new people, new hunters

getting into and new people
get into firearms, women

make up the largest percentage
of new firearms

and new hunters across North America.

And this is something
the Wildlife Federation from from

my observations,
as an outsider looking in has been embracing.

Yeah.
Did that concept play

into your original thesis that you did
about recruitment and retention?

Yeah,

to a lesser extent at that time.

I mean, at that time
hunter numbers were crashing.

So we go from, you know, in the early
eighties, 176,000 hunters every year.

Licensed hunters.

Yeah.

And I think by 2004 we were at 84,000.

So like the world
was literally falling apart at that point.

And it's like, okay, let's let's try
to figure out why this is happening.

Let's figure out what the constraints are.

The demographic shift was not necessarily
on the radar at that time.

It was just it was just starting to turn.

And I mean, that was part of it is

there were some signs in the states
that it was starting to shift and say,

okay, let's put some more focus
on this and talk about it.

So I would
say a lot of it's happened on its own.

There are a few changes
and a bit of discussion that happened.

But yeah, I think it's phenomenal.

I mean, hunting and fishing as a family
activity is like for the future

of hunting and fishing is like the best
possible outcome you can have.

And here we are in the Lower Mainland,

which is outside of Toronto,
one of the most diverse places in Canada.

Yeah, for sure.

You have people coming here

from all over the world
and you can take one or two approaches,

you can take an approach.

That says well,
these people don't know anything

about conservation and so they shouldn't
be hunting and fishing or you can go,

These people are clearly interested
in fishing or hunting,

so let's try to educate them
and bring them up to our standards

or cultural norms around how we treat
wildlife and how we interact with it.

So those are the two approaches.

And I mean, the second approach

brings more people
in the way you want them to behave.

And it and it also will fan
out into these communities.

So like, you know, in British Columbia
where we're a bit of a microcosm

because we have all these people,
you know, like 90 plus percent

of the population occurs
in like less than 5% of the province.

Right.

And so we can take the approach
that we shouldn't even go there and engage

the lower mainland,
or we can take the approach

that we should try to influence the Lower
mainland and educate the Lower Mainland.

And we know that BC politics is really
driven to the lower Mainland, right?

So we should probably be trying
to engage down here and to talk to people

and to bring up the issues
and to make hunting,

fishing and sports
shooting supported by the communities.

Right.

So that when something like Bill
C 21 comes up,

you know, the MLA from Langley and the MP
from Langley go, What are you doing?

I've got 3000 constituents at a club

who do all these great stewardship

projects who are taking care of salmon,
who have a rifle range,

and you're taking them all off
and you're going to cost me

my seat in the next election
unless you change it. Right?

So that's so that's kind of like
I think where we want to go is,

you know, you can
you can ignore the lower mainland

or you can get yourself into it
and try to start having a conversation

about the sustainability
of Fish and wildlife.

I think the second approach
is the best approach.

You know, Shane Mahoney
was saying you can jump into the river,

you can be right in your approach,
you can put your hands up and start

walking up that river,
but the river is going to win.

Yeah,

but if you can find something

that's floating down the river
and you're able to jump on that and work

with the river in order to direct it

in a way that is going to be beneficial
for everybody in his assessment.

And it's I agree, it's something that,

you know, my wife's a chef and we've
talked about this for a very long time.

His assessment is food
is that vehicle to be able to reach people

who may be adverse or disinterested
or have just ignorant

to to what
hunting and fishing is all about.

Food is that common universal vehicle,
the culture of food,

how it's shared, how it's prepared.

And and I think that

COVID had probably really highlighted

the need for sustainable harvesting and

being able to have

some sort of sufficiency
self-sufficiency within us.

Yeah, yeah I think I can’t remember
I think it's Rinella who said that

He calls it venison diplomacy right
and and that is huge like at our place

we have people over all the time
who are non hunters.

Non anglers don't eat well
and that's all we eat right.

And even in terms of how,
you know, this comes back to social media too

and we've talked about this all over
the province for the last 15 years.

Right.

But but making hunting relatable

to you non hunters and anglers is huge.

Right?

So someone who doesn’t hunt or
fish does not understand a picture

of a dead animal, but someone who hunts,
doesn't hunt and fish understands.

Here is the story of my hunt. Right?

So one of the pictures is the animal
you harvested the other nine pictures of.

Here's what we did before.

Here's the misadventure that we had here,
the time I fell in the creek.

And then here's the meal at the end,
and then it becomes relatable.

Hunting becomes relatable.
And same with social media.

Like on Twitter.

There's a bunch

of people now who who
I don't think would’ve talked

about, the fact that they were hunters
five or ten years ago.

But now that, you know, food people,
I think the hunting communities realizing

that food is a big connector,

you know, everybody's
putting up pictures of their meal, right?

It's like, hey, here's what I ate.

Here is the new thing
that I made this week.

And the non hunter is like, Well, that's cool.

I love to do that.

I love to try sushi from a salmon
that I caught myself or I'd love to try

whatever it is, you know, tongue,
tacos or whatever, whatever it is, Right?

Liver balls doesn't matter.

So, yeah, you can make you can make
hunting relatable to non hunters

through.

Yeah, through you.

I mean, people appreciate what we do
if it's put across properly.

So I've seen a marked shift in
since you become

executive director of the Federation
with how the federation communicates

and you're out there,
you'll get up and you'll do your

We talked about this ahead of time.
I have this.

I was asked to do a bit of a talking head
thing where I say something

and it comes out, man, that was recorded,
I think about 20 different times.

Yeah. Like, oh, my eyes went too wide.

I was doing something silly on this thing.

And he said, You know what?

You just you got to get over it
one and done get it out there.

But what I've noticed in

the shift is the way that you guys
communicate through social media.

Do you have a background in that?

Is that something that you're coaching on
or help with or.

No, I hate? Yeah, I know.

Like our social media,
like our marketing communications team,

we've got an awesome team who are doing
just like absolutely phenomenal work.

But in terms of those videos,
we got a ton of like awesome feedback.

I hate doing them like with a passion in
front of a camera is not my thing at all.

And even on media interviews,
like having a camera

a foot away from my face, it's
not my thing.

I can talk to 300 people in a room,
no problem.

Yeah, the camera thing is not my jam,
but I just, you know, there's it's.

It goes to extremes for me.

Either
I either record it and do it off the cuff

and ship it off to the team
and they put it out.

Or I spend like half a day
trying to make it perfect

and I do not have half a day record
or one minute video, right?

So for me, it's just like, hit the record
button, spit out what we've been up to

for the last two weeks,
get it out on the airwaves and done.

And on the other

the other thing on the communication

thing, as you may have noticed, is like,
again, we're focusing on our membership,

on our directors, the things that they do,
the things that we do,

and even in terms of our social media,
like we are definitely

getting the message across
that hunting is becoming more diverse.

So like Jenny's on our board,
Charlotte is on our board

talking about female participation,

talking about other viewpoints,
and we take flack for sure.

It's really interesting,

like Instagram and Facebook for us
are like polar opposites.

Instagram tends to be very positive space
where people like to see

these changing demographics,
like to see diversity and hunting

and angling, whereas Facebook
not so accepting and warm.

But we got to move on with it.

The different age demographics
too, that use a different platform.

It's 100.

That's a huge that's a huge part of it.

But again, like you got to kind of
stick to your principles

and what you're trying to achieve
and we are trying to include

more people in outdoor recreation,
conservation, hunting and angling.

And so we got to show that.

How do you do that?

Well, it's in large part like talking,
you know, interviewing

people like Jenny and interviewing people
like Charla.

We've got yeah,
it's really showing people,

you know, if people like women
who want to get into it or people

who are visible minorities
want to get into hunting or angling,

if they just see a picture
of an old white guy on social media

every single time, it's
unrelatable to them.

Right?

So how do you show themselves,

you know, how do you show them
that they fit into this community?

That's the challenge is like it's like,
you know,

even when you look at some of the research
in the states, it shows that up

to 70% of kids
want to try hunting and fishing.

It's that they don't
have access to it, right?

So if you can show people that people like
them are into these activities

and they can talk about
why they're into the activities,

it suddenly becomes relatable.

And you might push that person from just
being hunting, curious to being a hunter

or from being vehemently opposed
to hunting to going, Hey, you know what?

Jenny hunts and here's why she hunts.

And I get that
so I can get behind hunting now.

Whereas before I saw
and learned about her, I couldn't.

Right?

Well, that barrier to entry into hunting
could be can be pretty huge.

Um, there's a cost outlay.

There's the knowledge acquisition,

which is just it's
a lifelong lifetime endeavor.

are there
things that the Federation is looking at

or has been doing that can assist people
in building that community

and bridging the gap
between no knowledge, no

no ability to no kit, no gear

to being able to get out there
and do something with someone else.

Yeah. Yeah.

On their own. Yeah, absolutely.

So two of the programs
that we currently have

becoming an outdoorswoman
and women outdoors, that becoming

an outdoors woman is like an all inclusive
basically three dayer and you can learn

whatever you want like fly
fishing, chainsaws, backing up a trailer.

You know, we're saving , you know,
getting rid of lawyers retirements

I guess, and saving, saving,
saving marriages at the same time.

Right.

But but all those activities are offered
in like

this thing sells out like instantly
like it's like a matter of days.

And so last year, post COVID,

we were finally able to get two smaller
courses up, but we're really turning up

the volume on those courses
and trying to educate as many people.

Like we've got a long term goal
to basically educate 20,000 people a year

through our different programs.

And so yeah, so, so offering that,
offering that kind of like

taking people from in an ideal world,
I'm opposed to hunting, to

I'm okay with hunting to

Hey I want to try this and then supporting
them all the way through that journey.

I think there's a lot of value.

And so the BCWF’s motto
kind of has always been

join, volunteer, donate,
and we're going to be putting educate

like learn, join, volunteer, donate
as part of the thing.

So the upfront is them,
you know, trying to get their,

you know, brain engaged in terms
of how this all works.

You know, for somebody who comes from
an education background, which I've always

thought was kind of funny, actually,
a friend pointed it out, says “Travis,

You sucked at school, right?”

How is it
that you've got an education background?

You you went to five different
high schools,

a few different elementary schools,
like school just

wasn't your thing and your into education.

And I thought, well, I.

I looked at the way that I would
like to learn and how I can reach people.

And it's not that I can't.

It's just different way.

And my approach
seems to be resonating with other people.

But that education piece is something
that I know

I've very strongly advocated for
with the Federation for a number of years.

I'm very encouraged to hear that
because I see that as the vehicle.

Just maybe it's just because of my echo
chamber, I mean of my background.

But I see that as the vehicle
that's going to really propel

the federation as well as

B.C and beyond,
and to having more people out there

doing things in a way that's going to be
ethical, sustainable and and growing.

And in fact, I remember

I was recently it was kind of funny
because there is an article

I don't... I think it might have been The Sun
newspaper and this guy gets in there

and he's talking about how in the eighties
there is a 80% decline in

new Hunter recruitment.

And it kind of did coincide

right with an education piece
because this is in British Columbia

and all of the Hunter education, outdoor

education was taken outside
of the school system and put into sort

of private instructors and volunteer
instructors throughout the province.

And recently I was asked if I could find
that article and I pulled it up.

I'm like, Hey, that guy's Jesse

was because those were ten years ago
when I when I read that one.

Yeah, that was you.
You were the guy who was in that one.

Yeah.

So did
that tie into that paper that you did?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That was part of the learning.

Yeah.

So I mean, yeah,

the reality of all this is, is
that it's not that people like you'll get,

you'll get people who are opposed
to hunting and fishing and say,

well these are dying things,
they're going out like smoking.

And there was even

a government official like a long time ago
that said that. The reality is

people want to go hunting and fishing
and they want to try it.

But like you say, there's
so many barriers to entry

and then so many things that you can screw
up, especially not having that mentor.

Right.

So this is part of like the pre eighties
approach.

Which is father, it was a father and son
activity predominantly.

So dad taught son

now we're finding as there's a whole
bunch of people that are new to Canada

or live in Vancouver were not exposed
to that did not have a mentor

and now they want to learn and so it's way
harder to pick these activities up

without having someone who knows what
they're doing than it is with a mentor.

And so even in terms of what we're doing
in the Lower Mainland, we actually just

just got an agreement together
for the Seymour River, basically

where we're going to be bringing a busload
of high school students out to the river

every day, I think from April,
May and June to take them out to the river

to talk about salmon,
roll over some rocks,

look for some bugs,
take them up to the hatchery,

give them a T-shirt
and send them on their way.

I think we're looking at doing it
like I think it's like 1500 students

every spring.

Wow. To get the education right.

And so what we're hoping is two things.

One is that we're going to have 15 more
1500 kids a year that care about salmon

and that have a better relationship
with our environment.

But the other thing that we're looking at
too is like,

I bet you a whole bunch of those kids

want to learn to fish and
maybe they're going to become BCWF members.

And if we can start them out

as BCWF members
when they're in their teens,

they're going to stick with us
for a long time.

We're going to raise the kind of anglers
who are ethical, who understand

regulations,
who portray a good public image.

So there's a whole bunch of things
attached to that.

You know, there is a quote,
and I think it was I don't know

who it was attributed to the person
who said it was attributing it to.

I think
that's the current government in power.

But they said you control the children,
you control the future.

And although that's kind of got negative
connotations, to that.

If you're able to provide the children
with the education

and the information and the ability
to learn right on their own.

So it's not just

regurgitating rhetoric,
you're going to have a much better future.

And that's I believed very strongly
in that education piece.

And it's really encouraging to be to hear

That's the direction

the federation is going.

Yeah, we're
finding and hearing more and more about,

you know, in the lower

mainline here too, like you do have you do
have you know,

there aren't as many salmon as there was
ten or 40 years ago, but you do have

a number of rivers that have like hatchery
fish, hatchery coho or whatever.

And so we are hearing more
and more about all of these kids

who want to try fishing,
but their parents don't fish or,

you know, like mom, like,
you know, broken family or whatever,

where the parents split up
and they just don't have the access.

So again, it's about supporting
these kids, getting them outdoors.

Right.

You know, the alternative to keeping a kid
busy is a kid gets in trouble,

Right? So.

So why wouldn't we invest
some of our resources in the future

instead of living day to day
and trying to bring these kids up

in a way that we think
is going to be good for our Fish

and Wildlife in the long run,

But it's also going to be good
for hunting and angling.

It's going to be good for the BCWF

So, you know, on that same forum
where the individual that quote that I had

at the very beginning
was singing your praises,

there is a common topic.

That came up a few times
and that was about indigenous hunting

and that's an issue,
of course, all across North America.

The resources that we have don't belong

to any one individual, it belongs to all of us
in general, but we have different layers

of government and different interests
and sometimes those are butting heads.

One of the quotes that came up,
and I'll paraphrase because I didn't have it

written down was, you know,
I'm getting out of my tree stand at last

after last light and I'm cutting trail
walking back and I'm watching

some hunters driving up in their truck
and they're just starting their hunting

for the evening or I'm
fishing with my single barbless hook

and getting upset about the fact
that I'm not really catching anything

just to see a net across the river
and and a whole ton of bycatch.

The that's a very emotionally charged
politically.

Yeah.

treacherous area to navigate through
but it needs to be navigated

and needs to be talked
about is how how do you find that.

Yeah well

it's not easy. no. right
And I mean, -well, you looked at your watch.

Should we change subjects? No, no, no, no, no, no.

Because I've got to do the other meaning.

No, it's it is not easy.

I mean, in B.C.,
the reality is there's like

over 200 different nations communities.

Right? Right.

So and there are a lot of challenges
in our world, you know,

we do not have the bandwidth or capacity
to work with every single community.

So really where we are is we're focused
on building relationships with nations

that want to work with us.

And so there is one side of the story
where,

you know, people just fish
when how they want.

It doesn't matter

the status of their population,
if they're endangered or whatever.

That's one side of the story.

There's the other side of the story

where there's nations
who are voluntarily giving up their right

to hunt and fish, who we're working with
on stewardship projects to restore salmon.

So hopefully one day we can all fish.

There's nations who are yeah,
who are like intentionally limiting their rights

because they want to see non first Nations
hunting and harvesting and fishing.

And so that's where we're
spending a lot of our time.

You know, it's a big like there's
a lot of nations,

there's a lot of nations
that are really proactive

where they have their own
licensing system, where they have

like an MOU
with the conservation officer service

so that if their community members
are not following the regulations

that they have laid out,

then the conservation officer service
can charge those individuals.

So so I guess in our world, you know,
we don't have the bandwidth

to work with everyone, the ones everybody
who wants to progressively work

and improve

the sustainability of Fish and Wildlife
or is where we're spending our time.

And we are seeing like a number of nations
who are who are, you know,

essentially writing regulations
for their own members

and who are saying here
is how we fish, here is

how we hunt, here is what sustainability
looks like. Like on Vancouver Island

they have their own tags,
like they have a tagging system.

And it's like, here's your tag.

You don't you don't get two you,
you don't get three, you get one.

So working, working with the nations
who want to move forward, who are looking

to improve the sustainability
is where we're spending a lot of our time.

So there's an old quote.

I don't think it was Disraeli who said it,
but it's been attributed to him

and others.

There's liars, liar, there's lies,

then lies and statistics of there's liars,
damn liars and statisticians

is looking at statistics.

Is it difficult to reach a consensus,
a consensus throughout British Columbia

as to what
the concerns are with wildlife management?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Consensus is always hard.

Yeah, right.

And people
and people don't want complex answers.

They want easy answers, right?

So in the world of wildlife, it can be
we'll just get rid of the walls, right?

In the world of fishing. It's
just get rid of the nets.

Just get rid of the seals.

Just get rid of the commercial fishermen.

Quite often it's just get rid of
everything other than me, right?

That's. That's the world we live in.

But yeah, there's.

Yeah, And that's the world of politics

too politicians soundbites
and like one zinger or one liners.

And quite often in our world, it's
not that simple.

Sometimes it is, but quite often it isn't.

So you're right.

We're not going to get consensus
for everybody.

And again,
you know, there's two approaches to this.

One is

where, you know, and you probably live
this too, in your business, there is like

3% of the people who will suck
95% of the energy out of you, right.

Where there is like

probably 20 or 30% of people who are like,
I'm ready, put me in the game.

I will play as hard as I possibly can.

So, you know,
who are you going to spend your time on?

The people
who want to suck the life out of you

every single minute
and are going to call and complain.

Or the people who are like,

I don't like this and here's
what I'm going to do about it.

Like the action oriented people

is where we try to spend our time, where
I'm trying to spend more

and more of my time because, you know,
there is a million people like this.

The thing, too, there's a million people
who will complain on an online forum,

but they will never step out
into the real world

where they have a real name
and they need to go meet with their MLA.

And and quite frankly, like you just can't
you can't get sucked into that vortex

because it's not productive. Right.
We're all looking in my mind.

We're looking for outcomes
and complaining to each other.

You know, online does not change outcomes.

What a breath of fresh air. I like that.

I know we're conscious of time here
because.. No we're we're good.

We're good. Okay. Yeah.

So your your master's thesis that you did.

Yeah.

I thought that was kind of interesting
before

we actually before we move on to that,

is there anything on Hunter
retention or recruitment?

If you want to put some sound bites out
there, if people were we're looking for

successes that we're seeing in BC or maybe

major points from your thesis
that you put together,

what would would be your summary of what

well, it's a two part question
then, you've looked at before as a thesis.

Yeah.

What were your thoughts on it there and is
it still hold true now, and if now why not.

Yeah yeah a lot it back then
I mean we identified core

the privatization of core
as a barrier right.

So you got to get people across that
first part of the line.

There are a whole bunch
of things hunting regulations

and then
the mentorship was a big part of it too.

So just basically access to it, right?

So has that changed? Certainly.

Like you said, hunting has become
a more family oriented activity.

I think the people
where we're really missing out

is probably down here and part, but

also helping these like single moms
who's who's kids,

not just their son,
want to get into fishing or hunting

and moms going like,
how do I even do this?

Right. Right.

And and so that's where we see
like, we'll see moms take the core course.

You see this with their with their kids.

Yes... right Or we'll see women enroll
in the becoming an outdoors women program

so trying to so so it has changed
in that sense of the demographics

have changed and the supports that they need
have changed.

Right.

And so in the past,
I think the clubs provided a lot of the

a lot of the social staff, right.

Like the monthly meeting
hang out dinners and stuff.

But I think the clubs in the future

and even now
are going to have to shift more towards

recognizing that their membership
and recruiting and retaining new members

is really thinking about this
changing demographic and thinking about

events and functions to support the
this this lack and thirst for knowledge.

Right In the past,
like everybody knew like,

oh yeah, the hunting regulations back
then were this and this cup walk looked

like this.

And here's how many deer around

the people who are getting into it
now have no baseline, right?

Their baseline is today. It is not 1970.

So figuring out a way to kind of fill
that gap, that knowledge gap, and also

kind of help
these new hunters get up to speed

and anglers get up to speed,
I think is is what's changed, I would say.

Have you heard of the first Hunt
Foundation?

No razzle dazzle.

Rick Brazel, as he called himself
Rick Brazel in the States has had

him as and others have been pushing
very hard and they've built something

called the First Hunt Foundations,
designed specifically to take people out

who've never hunted before
and pair them up

with a vetted,
background checked, educated

mentor.

Yeah, to take a person out
and they can get out

hunting once or twice with the hope
that going off.

It's not like you've got a long time
and maybe you'll develop a longtime

relationship and hunting partner,
but that person's resources are

able to be shared with others.

So it's not like you're
always monopolizing them.

Yeah, but he's got this thing going
with the first Hunter Foundation.

It's growing rapidly.

They're doing an amazing job
and it's introducing

youth and new hunters
into what it's like under

the mentorship of somebody who's
been doing it successfully for a while.

Yeah, yeah.
Alberta has a similar program too

I mean, that's something
we're just we're just launching into.

But the the other piece of that too,
is like there's the part where you get into

hunting.
There's also the social structure.

And so that comes up.

A lot
in the research too, is like people,

you know, like we can

let's just say we have a group
of four people who hunt together.

One guy or girl might be like,
I'm here to get the biggest buck

I'm going to get up at 430 in the morning
every single day.

I’m gunna be back an hour after light, when people might be like,

Wow, I'm just here
and I hope I get some meat to take home.

The other person might be going, I'm
just here because you all are here, right?

And you can get this in like one
hunting group.

And so part of the challenge in this
like sense of community, which Jenny talks

about a lot, too, is that's missing
is is if one of those people move away

or one of them gives up
hunting like the whole group can fizzle.

So for these new hunters,
having that sense of community

and being able to build people around
them is really important.

You see this in the research a lot.

You know, people always say,
I don't have enough time in our world.

I'm sure that's true
and it's probably never been more true.

But but this sense of community

is huge for hunting and fishing,
like we have to build.

We have to build some better lines of
sight between all these people that enjoy it.

And I mean, the clubs the clubs do provide

that to a certain extent,
but we need to focus in on it.

I mean, that's
that's one of the biggest missing pieces.

Sure, it's fine if one person
wants to take up hunting, but chances are

they're not going to want
to go hunting by themselves.

So you have to find people that are
compatible, I guess, to go out hunting.

And I don't know your experience,
like we all have different experience.

I'm totally happy to go hunting by myself
for a week back

when grizzly bears were open,
like I'd just take off.

Yeah, but I know, you know, my wife hunts.

She's not.
She's not going to go by herself.

It's not her jam. Right.

And we have friends that are the same way.

Like if, if there's a bunch of people
going, there are 100% in.

But if it's like we're headed up north
and we're going to head off

in different directions,
are going to see each other in five days.

They're not into that, right? I hear you.

So you got to build that
that network And I'm... So how how

Yeah Well and that so sense of community
comes from a whole different

bunch of different places

but like these educational you know
like women outdoors becoming outdoorswomen

So for example, last year we had two.

So I went to an Oceola Club meeting
right after our bow.

Two of the ladies
that had just signed up for the Oceola

Club were also two ladies
that had just taken the BOW program.

They also that night
volunteered for the southern interior mule

deer project.

So again, like stringing these pieces
together, I'm interested in this.

I took the first course.

I joined a club, I'm volunteering for
a project and then having club activities

that help support that network
and facilitate that relationship

I think is a big part of it. Right?

Things like pint nights, backcountry
hunters and anglers do that as well.

Like they're really valuable
in building the network.

So these people need to feel like a sense
of belonging

to the community,
I guess is what we're talking about.

You know,
I think having a strong North Star

that everyone's gravitating towards
can bring in a whole bunch of different

backgrounds and interests.

As long as they're on board

knowing this is the North Star
that we're moving towards.

And that's what I see the federation value

is, is helping
make sure that that star is lit bright.

People have an idea of where that's going
and the community can work towards that.

Otherwise you just find yourself
in that level of division worried.

Well, I'm into the angling group, but I
even at well, I angle but only with flies.

Well I cast but only spay Right. Yeah.

And so but if you have that guiding light
that they're working towards,

I think that will help
the communities become cohesive.

Yeah. Yeah, you're right.

Yeah. It's been,
it has been very interesting.

I always remind one of the,
one of the former directors of fisheries

that fish is a four letter word,
but it's been interesting.

It's been interesting
learning about the fish factions

because I was never really
that exposed to all the politics there.

But there is a lot of baggage

in that world,
you know, same as hunting and how people.

But yeah, the reality is like we need
fish in the river first

before anybody can argue
about how many barbs the hook has.

And you know how long your leader is,
We have to have fish in the river,

so we should all be on the same page
as that.

And the other piece under that
is the more fish there are in the river,

the more opportunity
there is for everyone.

Right? And so, like

even when we talk about skeena steelhead,
which is a hot issue, right?

Do you all want to fight over who gets to
fish when there's 5000 fish in the river?

Or do you want to go, You know what?

If there were 30,000 fish
every year, I'd be okay with having people

out using gear or the occasional angler
eating a steelhead.

I would probably be okay with that

because having 30,000 fish in the river
and having more people on the river is way

better than having 5000 fish in the river
and nobody out fishing.

You know who's really passionate about
that and who's been doing a lot of work?

When you bring up the Skeena Brian Niska, and he's out of the Skeena Bay.

lodge there and man, he's involved
at a bunch of different levels. He's

doing a heck of a lot of work.

But people would say,

well, he's got a vested interest right?
because he's he's running this lodge over there

Okay. Sure.

I mean, like he's an angler
first and foremost. Yeah.

I think being able to leverage all of
those who have vested interest as well.

So if the federation is able to look via hub
essentially for businesses,

for the clubs, for the new individuals

coming through and not necessarily be the

the be all end
all provider of all these things,

but be able to connect them
to those who do. sure.

I see that as the the strongest way from
from my perspective anyways to leverage

those who have a maybe separate interest
but the same northstar guiding them. Yep.

And propel us a heck of a lot further.
Yeah. Yeah.

That makes sense.

We are finding that with with a lot
of the stewardship work that we're doing.

We are.

I feel like we're getting into a place
where we're able to,

especially with First Nations,
where we're able to manage

all of these relationships
or build all these relationships

that the province or government of Canada
really is not capable.

You know, their approach is lets
sit down at a boardroom,

you know, in a boardroom and figure out
how to cut up this last piece of pie.

Whereas our our approach is like,
let's get out on the land,

Let's figure out how to make things
better.

Let's go out, find some funding
and do work on this together.

And I think that's

Yeah, your idea is a good one.

And in terms of people

with vested interests,
I think we all have a vested interest.

I do. We do. It doesn’t matter
if we own a business or whatever.

I think the I think the broader challenge

is that everyone
we all need to recognize that

that there's people who do
these activities different than we are.

And what we should be really worried about
is if those activities are sustainable.

That's the first question.

Like, I really you know, personally,
I'm a I'm a fly angler 99.

You know, when it's when it's in fresh
water, like that's what we do.

But I don't really care
if somebody sits beside me

with a worm in a bobber,
it does not bother me at all.

What I'm concerned about
is that what they're doing is sustainable,

that they're out
enjoying themselves on the water,

that they're teaching their kids
good, you know, ethics

and that and that they're,
you know, good stewards for this activity.

I really don't care
what's on the end of their line.

It doesn't bother me at all. I love that.

Washington Now, I should probably fact
check this or I'm

sure one of the listeners

viewers will take a look at fact
check me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure

I've had discussions
with others about it in the past.

And I think I think I've looked into it.

But they've got a program where

people who have been hunting
for X number of years

can essentially

be a mentor or they might have to undergo

some training
or under do a bit of background checking.

But There's an incentive for them

if they're going to be
giving up their time

going out hunting and bring in somebody
who's brand new to the sport

who they don't know.

And I guess that's another offensive word
by some calling it a sport, even though

our province either calls it sport right
on their website in the provincial side.

But if they're bringing somebody
out into the activity of hunting,

the incentive is, is the following year

they get preferential odds on on drawing
tags.

Have you heard of that before?

And is that something that you think
would be

effective or able to be implemented
in, let's say, British Columbia?

Yeah, Yeah.

I think our yeah,
when we talk about this business

of one on one hunting I know Dylan does
a little it's not hunting it's limited.

I mean our challenge

is around our wildlife act and guiding
and illegal guiding and perceptions there.

right.

That's the big stumbling block. Right.

But in terms of the mentorship,
I mean, yeah, it makes sense.

You brought up the limited
entry hunting system and how that works.

That's in review.

And I know everybody's
got their favorite system

and not a lot of people
necessarily like this one.

So that's
that's work that's going on right now.

Yeah.

I mean, it makes sense.

Like really we're trying to get people
who are inexperienced out there

with people who are experienced and people
who have the right kind of experience.

Right?

There's a, there are a whole- I'm you know,
I'm very well aware that there are people

who got taught bad habits who have
continued to have those bad habits.

And so we've got to make sure

that there's quality control,
I guess, in that process.

But yeah, I'd be keen.

Like Freshwater Fisheries Society also
has the Learning to Fish program, right?

And so you just you've got to do a bit of,
you know, you got to follow these people

through their life history
to make sure they're sticking with it.

That's the big that's the big

trick is like we can introduce people
to fishing one day of the year,

but how do we, you know,

are they staying with it
And if they're not staying with it,

what are the gaps there
that we need to fill?

Yeah.

And I also I guess I must have just gapped
on the whole guide outfitters

sort of side of thing
because that could be putting

the way our laws are currently written
and could be put in.

It's the compensation piece
that's where it gets tricky.

Right- like.. Right.

If there's any kind of money involved,
that's where it gets tricky.

So so those are some of the challenges
that we have that are not

necessarily
shared in other jurisdictions or.

Are a bit different.

But I mean, I think the concept
of incentivizing people

with a lot of experience to take
new people out I think is phenomenal.

Right.

I think that's that's the
that's the way we want to do it for sure.

So you did your master's
thesis on something that

essentially what what is it?

It was on paying of... Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

I think it's called

resident Hunters preferences and
willingness to pay for moose management.

So essentially what we're trying to
look at is like, what do you want to see

in moose populations, how often
do you want to go hunting?

What kind of governance
of wildlife management you want to see?

How much of your license fees
do you want dedicated to the resource?

And then the last piece was how much
are you willing to pay essentially?

So it's like, you know,
how do you want to see moose hunting?

How do you want to see moose
managed, governed?

And then
how much are you willing to pay for that?

And yeah, that's that's essentially it.

There's a whole bunch more.

But that's,
you know, 60 pages in 30 seconds.

So what did you find out?
What do people want?

Yeah, Yeah, we Found out.

I mean, essentially
they want to see Moose restored, right?

So in British Columbia, we've gone from,

you know, in the eighties, peaked over
13,000 moose a year being harvested.

We're now now are probably down
below 4000. Wow.

So moose have declined.

What we've seen is
people want more moose on the landscape.

They want to be able to hunt more often
than harvest.

Right. Because there's a tradeoff there.

If we have, let's say, 100 moose

available in an area
we could let you know,

100 people go hunting every single year
and harvest each of those hundred moose.

Or we could let a thousand people
go hunting, but

only, you know, harvest
like a 10% success rate.

Right. Right.

So we can we can essentially
we can let people go hunting more often

with a lower success rate
or less often with a higher success rate.

And so that was one of the questions
is like which end of the spectrum?

So people wanted to definitely wanted
to go hunting more often, right?

That's what they said.

That's what they said, right.

So, you know, part of the message
there is contrary to the anti-hunting

narrative, it's
not about just about killing an animal.

Right. Right.

When people are saying,
I want to go hunting more,

even though I know that
I am not going to harvest

and moose are my chance to harvest moose
go down, that means that there's

other factors associated with hunting
that are also really important

are the license
fee, proportional license fee.

20% of your hunting license

currently goes to the Habitat Conservation
Trust Foundation as a surcharge.

People, you know, by and large
want 100% of their license dedicated

and they're willing to pay more
for that as well.

If it's dedicated.

We gave them alternative
governance mechanisms.

So right now,
basically things go through cabinet.

Essentially there's some delegation,
but politicians essentially

make the decision around
wildlife management.

People don't like that. Sure.

Yeah, they would prefer to see like
in the States, they have a game commission

which is essentially like hunters
and anglers who are part of a board

that make a recommendation
and typically to an elected official

they would way more prefer that and
they're willing to pay way more for that.

Or even
we said a nuance piece realated to UNDRIP

and DRIPA which was a multi government
multi-stakeholder commission.

So that would be like
having the provincial government,

first Nations government
and then stakeholders on a commission

and people overall
were willing to pay more.

There's definitely people
that were opposed to it.

But yeah, what the research showed is, is
people are willing to pay

like a current moose license

fee for like, you get a LEH
and buy your tag, it's 25 bucks.

People are willing to spend
like literally hundreds of dollars.

If we were able to change the way
we manage Moose. Wow.

Yeah. Yeah.

Was that a bit surprising to you
that the magnitude was surprising?

Yeah, sure.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like, I think if we

if we dedicated license fees,
it went to, like 120 something dollars.

I don't have it
right at the tip of my finger. sure

like I think it was $14 for each
a thousand moose additional available

so like so like we're talking
you know if people got the world

their way like a couple of hundred dollars
for a moose tag.

Right.

Which huge because in the world
of North America at least

people and especially are this demographic
kind of like the older demographic

they do not like government
and they do not like paying taxes.

Right.
I could get onside with that. Right.

Right.

So those are two things they hate.

But in this case, we're
we have a compelling case to say.

There are some people
that want to pay more tax if you do this.

That's highly unusual.

And I know even when you talk to the folks
in the states about, Pitman Robertson,

like their excise tax, you know, again,
similar approach to government in tax.

But if you went to and said, you know,
we're going to make your firearms

13% cheaper
because we're going to get rid of that

Pitman Robertson they're going to say
no way, because there is of close

to $1,000,000,000 that goes into Fish
and Wildlife every single year as result.

So that was one of the really cool
breakthroughs, is that there

there is a place and a space
for people paying more tax,

but they want their money
to be dedicated to the resource.

They want the resource to be increased.

And that's a really compelling story
because politicians never hear that.

Nobody ever walks into a minister's office

and says, We're
our industry is willing to pay more tax.

Nobody does that
and we want to know how it's being spent.

Yeah, and I think most people don't
really mind the taxes if they can see

proper allocation of those funds in a way
that's that makes business sense.

Right?

Not that it'll just balance itself.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But it's a really compelling story

because minister, like, governments
never hear of that.

No, nobody ever, like, no advocate
or a lobbyist shows up in Victoria and goes,

We're here

because we want to give you a pitch
to spend more money on,

you know, essentially
taking care of wildlife.

It doesn't happen. So it was really cool.

Yeah, that was pretty cool.
Very interesting.

So it's just a matter of turning that

into policy now to actually get the rubber
to hit the road.

You know, on the political side,
you brought up Grizzly Bear.

I think it was 2017
NDP government of BC's came in says,

okay, we're going to get rid of grizzly
bear hunting.

it was enacted sometime in 2018.

I think, if I'm not mistaken.

And I think the there was

some very poorly timed social media

exposure or some hunters
posting pictures of grizzly bears.

I didn't see them all.

I heard about some of them.

I saw some.

How much do you feel that
that social media aspect played a role

in the decision of putting the ban on
grizzly bear hunting?

Yeah, for sure.

I mean, you the
the world of anti-hunting or anti,

like the people who are opposed,
they're going to use everything they can.

Sure. Right.

We've learned that one of the,
you know, kind of rabid anti hunters.

So one of those videos was from Alaska.

And I actually got offered
like a substantial amount of money

to find out the name and to cough
that name up to the anti hunters.

Right.

So so they are using social media
to make hunting look bad.

That's what they're going to do.

Right. So, again,
I think there's a lot of learning.

I mean, I have seen things shift,
at least on the social media

that I monitor and check out where people
are starting to tell the story

and starting to tell more about hunting
rather than just a kill shot.

So the answer is yes.

It plays a huge role
because it makes headlines, right?

Like, especially in this world where media
now is being decentralized and people

are doing research on social media
as opposed to like legitimate sources,

it you know,

hunters have the ability to undo
the social support that hunting has.

But on the flipside, right,
like let's just say,

you know, on your social media account,
let's just say, for example,

the average person
has 500 people on their Facebook.

You also have the ability
to influence all of those people, right?

So if we have 110,000 hunting,
like we have the ability to impact

nearly like the whole province of B.C
through our social media,

if we do it properly, right,
if we tell the whole story

and we talk about why we do it
and the values that we put into it.

So it's a double edged sword
and I would just say, you know, in your

before you put a post out,
just think about, you know,

what is the how is a non hunter
going to react to this, Right.

And how do we sell them on hunting?

We don't need everybody to become hunters,
but we need everybody

to like hunting to be okay
with hunting, to support hunters.

And that's interesting.

You said one of the videos that they're
offering money for was a fellow in Alaska,

you said, Yeah.

So it's funny

how ideas funny, maybe not the right term.

Interesting how ideas can spread
and policies can spread

and the policy becomes regulation
and then becomes legislation.

And it just because people look to
the left and their right and they'll say,

well, that's how my

my counterpart over the

next province
or the next state is doing things.

And how important it is for people to

to ensure that they're being vocal
and they're talking to their MLA’s

and their MP’s
so that that doesn't happen.

And, you know,
I look at a gun range over in

in New Brunswick,
and they won a court ruling.

Essentially,
they took their chief firearms officer

to task for

overstepping their boundaries and placing

renewal conditions on the on their range,

which they had no authority to do So.

And I went to court and their CFO
said, well,

I'm just doing that because that's
how the Nova Scotia CFO does it.

Well Neither one
has the authority to do it.

But Nova Scotia has never stood up
and said anything right. So

I can see that changing, though.

Yeah, I'm it.

It just, you know, these things bleed
and they will bleed over

both positive and negative.

So if you see something negative happening
next door, don't think,

hey, it can happen to you.

You can help reverse this decision
for them.

Yeah,
I know the states are looking to Canada

on a lot of different issues
and they're trying to say, Well,

that's kind of where we want to go too.

If it's their political,
they're politically motivated.

Yeah, yeah.

I think like C 21 is a prime example
because I did hear that as well.

It's just it's just quote
unquote assault rifles, right?

Why should I care?

And it's like, well,
here are all the reasons why

In terms of the grizzly bear stuff, too,
when you think about the advocacy

on the anti hunting,
I mean, they used they used

what hunters were putting out
on social media against them.

Right? So that was a big part of it.

And the other piece

you know I Will give

so Rain Coats was one of the big drivers.

I remember that they were
they were successful in that approach

in the sense
that they are not really lobbyists.

That was a public campaign, that was not
a government relations PR campaign.

That was a public campaign.

So what that what that should tell us
is that talking to the public,

talking to our neighbors, coworkers,
friends and family who don't hunt and fish

is really important.

Mhm. Right.

That's the missing piece is- great point.

You know if you're a hunter
you know, pardon the words

but you got to come out
of the closet on it

and you have to talk about it
and you got to engage non hunters.

They are way more.

And again
this comes back to the online world.

Talking to somebody online gives you no...
it does nothing for the activity right.

Trashing somebody or getting in a fight
on a hunting forum with somebody else.

This does not change the outcome. Talking to your neighbors

or taking some venison
or inviting them over for dinner is huge.

Right?

That is how you
you start the conversation.

That is how you get sort of social support
for hunting

I mean, it's
the same. It's really interesting.

So like, even with gardening

Right, if people have a garden, you know,
because they're going to bring you over

veggies, you're gunna invite them over for dinner and be like, what can we bring?

We just got this out of the garden.

Nobody's like, Hey, I just got a great
head of lettuce from save on.

Can I bring it over for dinner next week?

totally. So it's entirely relatable.

And all that shows you
is that you have like as an individual,

you have the ability to influence people
who don't hunt and fish,

and there are some really easy ways
to do it.

And part of
it is just talking to people about it.

I like that.

If I didn't have two more questions, that
would be a great way to wrap things up.

The only other two that I was looking at
I know Chad Day of the Tell ten Group

has put a bounty on grizzly bears
because they're their internal research

and data is saying that they need
to be managed and not just left to roam.

Do you see the grizzly bear ban reversing?

Yeah, you know what I do?

What I see is there are a number
of first nations across the province,

like, you know, part of the narrative
around this grizzly bear hunt was first

nations are opposed grizzly bear hunting
and and some first nations are.

But I would say in the interior
the majority are not.

And so there is you know, in terms
of like with Chad's approach,

Chad is very interested
in getting a licensed grizzly bear hunt.

There are a number of other nations
who also are very interested.

So so as we build relationships
with nations and trust with nations,

I think the discussion
I mean, the discussions are already live,

but I think the discussion will will grow
in terms of concerns

around the number of grizzly bears
and how grizzly bears are acting

like from a kind
of a behavioral creating problem.

So so the answer is I can see a time where
grizzly bear hunting comes back,

you know, in terms of

the way our world works,
it'll it'll probably be different.

But yeah, there's definitely a lot

impetus from a number of nations
to get grizzly bear hunting back

because like Chad’ll say too, like,
you know,

they're not harvesting the number of bears
that they want to harvest.

Mm hmm.

There's a lot to unpack there.

I can read between the lines, but
I think that might be for a future podcast

as well. Yeah, it's.

And again,

it comes back to this relationship

business like we were talking about,
like there are, you know,

there are going to be nations
who we can work

well with and build relationships
and synchronize well with.

And we're not going to agree
on everything.

There is no doubt about it.

But the things that we agree
on, we need to work on together, right?

For sure.

I guess.

See, the last one that came up
and I have zero information on it

and it just came up in Google
when I put your name up in it directly

to a Facebook page,
and then I had to search

through a bunch of stuff to find it
and I couldn't find I gave up.

But essentially the Google title came up
was about talking

about black bear hunting and looking like
it was going to go the way of grizzly.

Have you heard anything on that
or any efforts to try and do that?

You know, so the world of anti-hunting
will use the things that are easy, right?

Not they're not going to well,
they're not going to go after

deer hunting like there's, you know,
it's like this where all the firearms.

Right.

The public is not going to be
supportive of people who just shoot.

But the public, by and large,
is supportive of hunting.

Right.
And so there's shades of gray and hunting.

There's people who hunt grizzly bears.

There's calling wolves aerially.

And on the other side, that spectrum
there is waterfowl hunting

and there is deer hunting
and there is grouse hunting.

And so the people
who are opposed to hunting are

always going to pick these ones
that result in a negative reaction.

So I would say, you know, black bear
hunting is probably part of it.

Trapping is definitely on that list.

100%, like trapping
is going to come to the top.

The wolf call comes to the top, right?

So and there's going to be a growing
narrative that, you know, hunters like

are feeding their egos
or that they don't eat what they kill.

Right.

And so, like, cougar hunting is
another easy one for anti-hunting, right?

So like essentially anything
that's a predator,

anything that is not not considered normal
or where

there's a whole bunch of hunters
that do it, that's those are the easy

those are all low hanging

fruit trapping is the low hanging fruit
for anti- hunters, too.

Right.

That's why they pick it,
because this is on the fringe.

Like these are activities that we know
the public is not going to react well to.

So those are the ones
we're going to pick. camel in the tent.

Hey. Yeah, Camel
in the tent. Yeah, please, sir.

So cold out. Can I just put my foot in?
Well I guess if you put your foot in..

Can I put my leg in? Yeah.

Next thing you know, you're sleeping
outside and the Camels inside. Yes.

Yeah. And I mean, successful approach.
Yeah.

And these groups go after the conservation
officer service all the time as well.

Right.

So, so a lot of that again is just, you
know, there's a very, very few of them.

They're not, they don't,
they don't get a lot of traction.

But don't, don't, don't feed
don't feed them.

You don't feed the anti hunters. Right.

And again, like this is where
we can engage all of these people

that we know inside of our networks
who don't hunt and fish.

Right.

That's part of this newer position at the BCWF is developed, is

I want our fishing game clubs
to be recognized

by their communities,
by their city council,

by their MLA and by their MP
as stewards of the environment.

Like I want everyone to know who lives in

Prince George at the Spruce City,
Wildlife is the place to go.

If you have a question about grizzly bear
hunting or black bear hunting

or restoring fish populations
in the Fraser than Jack River like those,

that's the hub.

I want our people
to be a source of information, right?

Because then it minimizes all of this
stuff, all of the fringe stuff.

They suddenly become persona non grata.

They are not the place where we go
to get information, right?

So if we have these clubs
and these membership

that are trusted,
that have a day at the range, that

have a clean up day in the bush,
that have a conservation project use,

you become the person
or the group for conservation

and that's who you know,
that's who hunters and anglers are.

I think we lost that a little bit
and we got to work to get it back.

But it's very doable.

That's amazing.

Is there and I'm looking at a clock
conscious of time here.

Is there anything else
we should be covering before we wrap up?

I we covered a lot.

Yeah. Yeah,
we covered a lot. Yeah. I don't know.

I mean, there's

I think yeah, there's a lot
there's a lot to this world into this job.

I mean,

I feel like we've covered most of it.

There's going to be questions
that come up. Yeah.

If you're game for another one in
the future, we'll have to.

There is one thing
that you mentioned at the end,

which is, like you say,
if I look with read between the lines,

I think there's a lot to unpack
on that one. Yep.

But we'll leave that
for a different episode.

Sure.

Jesse, thank you so much for being here
on the Silvercore podcast.

Yeah, thanks for having
me on. I really appreciate it