089 | Michael Ballantyne | Bridging Tequila & Scotch Occasions with Storywood Tequila

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In this episode, host Chris Maffeo speaks to Michael Ballantyne, founder of Storywood, who joins the Maffeo Drinks Podcast to reveal how he created the first single malt whisky barrel–aged tequila—a bold step intended to convert whisky aficionados into agave enthusiasts.

By deliberately pivoting from tequila-focused venues to whisky bars and events like the Glasgow Whisky Show, he discovered a more receptive audience who understood the language of oak, toast, and char.

While stoking consumer curiosity with a cask-forward narrative, Michael stresses the importance of selective distribution, building momentum in key markets before spreading too thin.

He explains how a multi-SKU strategy caters to varied palates—from lighter, cocktail-friendly expressions to richer, extended-aged variants—yet unifies under the “tequila meets scotch” identity.

Throughout his journey, Michael has worked bottom-up—sampling events, personal brand ambassador work, and direct outreach—to forge loyal trade and consumer relationships.

Timestamps:

00:00 Introduction and Podcast Overview

00:29 Guest Introduction and Product Overview

00:50 The Story Behind Storywood Tequila

03:47 Challenges and Strategies in the Tequila Market

07:37 Innovative Marketing and Consumer Engagement

18:17 Global Market Expansion and Distribution

22:28 Personal Reflections and Advice for Entrepreneurs

28:46 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Interested in Group Subscriptions, Keynote Presentations or Advisory? You can get in touch at [e-mail] or find out more at maffeodrinks.com 

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

Guest

Michael Ballantyne

Founder | Storywood Tequila

What is MAFFEO DRINKS?

The MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast is a leading drinks industry podcast delivering frontline insights for drinks leadership.

For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

Insights come from sitting at the bar.

Beyond episodes: advisory for leadership teams, subscription with episode deep dives and principles to navigate your own reality.

Beer, wine, spirits, Low and non-alcoholic.

Bottom-up Insights & Episode Deep Dives at https://maffeodrinks.com

Hey drinks builder, this is
Chris Mafael, and you're

listening to the Mafia Drinks
Podcast.

Today.
We are reaching listeners in

over 100 countries and I'm
grateful you're one of them.

Before we dive in, a quick
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Check it out at
mafiadrinks.substack.com.

Now let's get into today's
conversation.

Welcome to the Mafia Drinks
podcast.

Fantastic to have you.
After many years of following

each other and all the possible
social media, we finally managed

to talk to each other and and
discuss your fantastic products.

Better better late than never,
right?

So let's start with a quick
intro of your product in a

nutshell in a one minute so that
then I get all the listeners up

to speed to why you're here.
And then I'll ask you a couple

of questions on understanding a
little bit better on how you

work with Storywoods.
OK, so Storywood is a is the

world's first single malt
whiskey barrel aged tequila, but

it was created as an alternative
spirit for whiskey drinkers.

So that that was that.
That's the quick version.

Wow, that's super quick.
So let me dig into this because

you were so fast and like
there's a lot 1 pack in that

one.
So first of all, so you are

Scottish but grew up in Houston,
TX right?

Yep.
So born in Scotland, grew up in

Houston, was there until I was
about 25 and then moved back to

Scotland in 2005 and I've been
here ever since.

So I got married, had kids, and
Yep, that's me.

That's me staying in Scotland
for a while.

I guess take it a step back.
I did my degree in restaurant

management, culinary arts, so
absolute cooking flavor was with

a huge thing for me.
And I really love the

hospitality industry, but it
wasn't until I, I moved back to,

to Scotland, I, I fell into a
different industry all together.

And in 2015 I, I decided I
really wanted to get back to

hospitality somehow.
And I went out to visit my

mother, who's been living in
Mexico for years.

And, and she took me to Tequila
distillery.

And that's kind of when I fell
in love with the the idea of

bringing the two cultures
together as one.

But for me, the the whole idea
around Storywood was because I

could see so many similarities
between tequila and and Scotch

whiskey.
You've got regions with tequila

just like you have regions with
Scotch whiskey.

And if you think about the two
spirits, they're pretty much

just flipped upside down in
terms of Scotch.

Whiskey is grown in the ground,
short, but long in the barrel.

And then with tequila, it's long
in the ground and short in the

barrel.
So there's so many easy ways.

At the whiskey drinker, which I
was a whiskey drinker through

and through, I could really
understand what tequila was

without really knowing what it
was.

Just with a few kind of
discussions here and there, I

picked it up and taking all that
knowledge.

I, I wanted to feed that back to
other people.

And, and that's kind of how
story would was created by

trying to educate consumers on
great sipping tequila.

And we did that by putting it
in, in single malt whiskey

barrels, which was, it was the
world's first.

And, and I think that kind of
caught a lot of attention to

start with, because a lot of
people just found it quite

innovative.
But for me, it was innovation

with purpose, and that purpose
was really to bring whiskey

drinkers into the tequila
category.

I love that, I love that.
And the interesting thing for me

is the fact that you are
bringing a personal story.

I mean you're basically
embodying that bottle and vice

versa and story would embodies
you.

But the challenge with many
founders that I speak to when I

work with, it's always, how do
you bring that personal story to

life and how do you make it
compelling for other people now?

Because sometimes it's like my
grandmother was picking up the

berries in the garden and I've
always loved blah, blah, blah.

But then nobody cares about
this.

You know, what is fascinating
for me is that you are bringing

together the Mexican spirits and
Scottish spirits, but in a way

that is blending basically true
flavor and taste on a problem

that is, let's call it like a
personal problem in a, in a

sense of let's say a personal
need that also other people

probably have.
And this is what is very

interesting for me on how to
bring it to life to others.

Yeah, so I guess as a whiskey
drinker, I mean, I I understood

oat toast chars, I understood
what made the whiskey right.

So you treat it with respect and
and what at in 2015, people were

still shooting tequila.
And to be fair, in the UK we

really didn't have any good
tequila that was being sold

here.
So it was just being sold at the

shop still.
So the whole idea was story

would was to really change
perception on a drink that had

quite a tainted past from, you
know, a lot of people taking

shots at the end of the night
and and remembering that it

didn't really end well.
We were trying to change that

whole thing and and nobody was
really doing that at the time.

I mean, there was some really
great sipping tequila out there,

but but nobody was really
challenging perception.

And that's kind of where we came
in to completely change that.

But it was, it was quite
difficult because the way that

we kind of our strategy was
instead of talking to tequila

consumers, why don't we just go
and speak to whiskey consumers?

Because whiskey people, they
know oak, they understand toast

chars, all our language that
we're trying to speak, they get

it right.
So, so that's really what we

did.
We started going into to whiskey

shows and I mean, our booth was
flooded with consumers because

they just wanted to know what it
was like.

And then in essence, I was
always trying to challenge like

story would kind of came about
because I was always looking for

something different to try as a
whiskey drinker because I was

one of those curious consumers.
I guess you could say I'm always

kind of looking for something
different.

I solved my own problem by
creating something I really

enjoyed outside of whiskey.
And that's really where we we

played.
We we did.

Don't get me wrong, we did it
completely wrong at first.

We did go after tequila
consumers, but what we found

with that, we just would sit on
the back bar like we would sell

a bottle, but we wouldn't sell
another because all the

traditional tequilas were being
sold and they they were the

house poor or we were maybe too
expensive to, to even get close

to being a house poor.
And so we completely changed our

strategy, though.
As soon as we went to that

whiskey show in Glasgow and just
had tons of people come to the

stand, that was it.
It was like, OK, we're chasing

the wrong people here.
We, this is our tribe.

Whiskey consumers are the type
of people that really enjoy this

and they're interested in it and
they want to know more.

So that that was a great pivot
point for us.

And this is very interesting to
know because one of the things

that I remember on our
interactions on LinkedIn four

years ago that stuck with me was
when you said I'm going to

whiskey bars talking about
tequila aged in whiskey barrels

rather than going to a, let's
say, a Mexican restaurant, which

doesn't mean that you're not
settling to Mexican restaurant,

but let's say the focus is that
no.

And this is also like for the
listeners, like one of the

things that I discussed a lot
and I like to clarify is that

one thing that you are just
having as a target occasion or

target outlet or bar or
restaurant doesn't mean that you

don't go anywhere else.
You know, it's just that that's

your way of explaining it to
people.

And whether it's a distributor,
whether it is a sales team,

whether it's a brand manager,
you know, that's the way you

explain who you are.
It doesn't mean that you don't

sell.
It's just that those are the

places where you are more likely
to convert and sustain that

demand.
Maybe in a, in a Mexican

restaurant where you were
sitting in the back bar because

you were with another 1015
tequilas and people didn't even

get it because maybe, I don't
know, I'm assuming from a

different price point.
You know, people would go in

there to have a salt and lime
kind of experience, you know,

and they didn't see the need for
Storywood.

But then when you flip that and
that Eureka moment that the

Glasgow Whiskey Festival, then
the whiskey Show, then you

realize, OK, wow, these people
speak my language.

You know they get what I'm
talking about.

Yeah, yeah.
So like we automatically we

thought, you know, Margarita
that the the most served

cocktail in the world, we need
to be on that.

We need that needs to be our
cocktail, right.

And what we still found with
that, there was just so many

other tequilas that were owning
that style.

So instead of and and that kind
of when we pivoted, it was like,

OK, if we can get on the
cocktail menu, how are we going

to do it right.
So what are the flavors that we

have in our tequila that nobody
else has?

And it's, it's really oak
focused.

And so we're like, OK, well, if
we can't own the Margarita, then

why not go after whiskey
cocktails?

So old fashioned with absolutely
perfect.

And, and we really kind of
hammered down on that through

different accounts trying to get
on the cocktail list as a

tequila old fashioned.
And, and that worked because

people were curious and they
wanted to try it and, and it

just, it was a game changer
really for the brand itself.

Even doing that from, I think a
lot of brand owners, they think,

OK, let's say they've got a run.
They're like, OK, we want to

expand into, into different
countries, right?

We need to find the best rum
importer or distributor,

actually figure out what your
brand, the internal parts to

your brand, what that is,
because with Storywood, it was

very oak focus, right?
So if we're looking for whiskey

consumers, we don't necessarily
want to be in a portfolio of

10/15/20 tequilas.
We want to be in a portfolio of

10/15/20 whiskeys so that that
salesperson who's going to those

whiskey accounts go, hey, here's
you know, they'll do all their

whiskeys and they go, hey,
here's, here's the last one and

it's actually Storywood and it's
aged in single malt whiskey

wells and they go, huh, OK,
that's pretty interesting.

I like that.
That would work really well on

our cocktail menu because we
actually don't have any tequilas

on there.
And with the barrel aging, it

just makes sense.
So it's just you have to find

your reason for being.
You know, you're the

innovation's only as good as its
purpose, you know, So you have

to find that something within
your brand that really clicks

and and moves the needle because
just being something isn't good

enough anymore.
Yeah, yeah.

And this is the key.
You see it like when people are

chasing this IWSR reports and
market share.

This is like the market is
booming and it's like you still

need to sell the first bottle.
The first K is the first pallet.

You know, don't focus about the
zillions cases, 9 liter cases

that are out there.
Considering how few bottles

you're going to sell at the
beginning, any market basically

it's good enough for you.
You don't need a huge

opportunities because ultimately
you just need to crack the

beginning of the journey.
Yeah.

What you're confirming is that
it's going to be bumpy.

I mean, you don't realize it
right away.

You go by trial and error and
then you speak to people and

then you realize like that
example that you mentioned

earlier to me, like about the
glass.

That's so interesting.
How do you change the perception

of by just having a small change
in the serve of your product?

Now maybe you can explain that
as well.

Yeah, yeah.
So I mean, that was really at

the that was before, before
thing kind of I had that light

bulb moment, you know, trying to
get all my my whiskey friends to

enjoy tequila with me.
And they were always saying the

same thing.
Where's the salt and the lime?

And it was actually my wife.
That was like, if you're trying

to get people to drink it like a
whiskey, why don't you just put

it in a whiskey glass?
And sure enough, I put the next

time I had a friend round, she
does not like he liked tequila

now, but he didn't like tequila
before I I put some tequila in a

Glen can glass, asked him to try
it.

I didn't tell him what it was
and and he was like, wow, that's

really good.
What is that?

So, so that alone changing
perception just on the

glassware, that was kind of the
the seed to make me think, OK,

if I can change perception just
on that, what can I do?

If I actually put it in single
malt whiskey barrel.

So it really was story.
We was trying in my mind it with

an educational tool to show
people that tequila can be just

as great as any sipping spirit
in the world, but you have to do

things in order to get people
around that you, you, you have

to change perception through
glassware barrels.

Your the way that you talk the
language and there's so much

more.
You can't just be the same as

everybody else.
But I think these kind of

brands, like I've seen other
brands from founders that are

quite innovative and there's one
thing it's just you have to

trust your gut.
You know, if there's one thing

that I could have done
differently before it would be

to stop second guessing myself.
You know, I thought the right

path was tequila consumers, but,
but I, I, you know, I created it

as an alternative spirit for a
whiskey drinker, right?

So in the very beginning, I
should have been pitching it to

people just like me, which I
finally realized that was the

right path.
But just trust your gut and and

go with that as one piece of
advice I'd say to people.

That's a golden.
I get there because it, we, we

always tend to think that we had
the weird ones, you know, and

it's like there's people out
there and I'm weird and nobody

will have my needs because, you
know, like people are more

linear, but in the end they're
not.

And it's funny you say that
because.

And sometimes I'm doing all my
scribbling and writing things on

my newsletter and these things.
And then sometimes I think I

have a fantastic idea and I
write something about it.

And then I go back to some old
file and then I find an article

that I wrote four years ago.
And I was, wow, I knew this four

years ago.
Then I forgot about it, and now

it's back, you know, And
sometimes, I mean, you need that

reconfirmation.
You need that iteration to be

honest sometimes like to forgive
yourself.

Yeah, I think, I think there's a
little bit of an experience I, I

didn't have any experience in,
in the drinks world.

So when I was actually going out
and speaking to people that had,

you know, 1520, 30 years
experience in the spirits

industry and I'm telling them
I'm not going into tequila bars,

I'm going into whiskey bars.
Honestly, the amount of people

that I actually laughed at me
and said that's not going to

work.
And and it doesn't really boil

down to experience because if
you think about it, lots of

trends, they completely change.
So like where we were before we

were pitching when we I guess
when we first created story with

what we wanted to do was be a
really unique barrel aged

tequila pitching to whiskey
drinkers.

Now.
I mean we, we pretty much

trailblazed space at that point
in time because nobody was doing

anything like it.
You've now got tons of bigger

brands doing similar kind of
stuff as to what we're doing and

they're educating consumers.
So from my point of view, we can

go into all the all the tequila
bars and, and places where we

didn't play before, we actually
can play there now, because a

lot of these places are educated
on different barrel styles and,

you know, bartenders are more
educated with the kind of talk

that we're actually talking
about now.

So in terms of the, I guess
where we were before thinking,

you know, what, if we could just
sell 20, thirty 30,000 cases,

that'd be amazing.
But where I'm at now, it's like

there's no reason why we
couldn't potentially get to

100,000 cases.
I mean that, you know, it's

changed so much now the category
that it's really opened the

doors for so many brands out
there and and that's a great

thing.
That's very true.

And it's connected to one thing
that I'm always talking about.

I call it the selling ring
roads, where you have the Ring

Rd. of the city and you can
decide which roads you take to

get to the center and the
traffic changes.

So back then, probably you had
traffic on two or three of those

roads and then you decided to
take another Rd.

But then traffic conditions are
always changing depending on

time of the day and day of the
week, anything.

And it depends on what's the
hook to that thing.

Because if somebody is a tequila
drinker, then it could be like,

Oh yeah, I'm a tequila drinker,
but I'm tired of drinking the

usual tequila.
And then you would be like, oh,

well, have you tried this one?
You know, but then vice versa,

you know, what seems to be
working for you is also the

other way around, which is the
Scotch path.

And what I like about this is
this cross contamination of

categories through flavor that
is so inspiring.

And you honestly, you were one
of the guilty ones that got me

into this thinking in a good way
that because I'm really talking

like that, I'm almost like
scrapping the the categories as

we know them now.
Because I mean, categories are

an ex post exercise of what was
created, like Scotch and cognac

and Brandy and amado and
whatever they were called like

that afterwards.
Ultimately, people drink stuff,

you know, and then people drink
liquids.

Of course there are rules and
appellations and all these kind

of things, but but the mouth
doesn't care about Appalachian

in that sense, no.
If I like a smoky flavor we were

discussing before, I like to
bridge between Ilay and and a

mescal, for example.
No.

And then you can take the woods
route, you can take the liquid

route, you can take the
ingredients, the base spirit

kind of route, and you can play
around it in so many different

ways.
And that's so fascinating. 2015

is like 10 years ago, but it
sounds like 35 years ago now,

like from a market evolution
perspective.

Yeah.
I mean, it's completely changed.

I think when when I first
started there was just shy of

1500 brands in the market, we
were of 1%.

Of those 1500 sourcing our own
cast, 1%, we were doing all our

aging all ourselves from the
ground up.

Now there's well over 3000
brands and I'm not sure what the

statistics are today, but I
would say there's got to be at

least got to be at least around
10% of brands that are actually

buying the, the cast and, and
kind of doing that stuff

themselves.
But as as a whiskey drinker, you

that, that's really all I knew
it was like, OK, well, we can't

cut corners.
We have to build it from the

ground up.
But now people are starting to

realize that you in 2015, Blanco
pretty much flooded the category

and now reposados are actually
the highest growth category in

the tequila category.
So people are catching on to

that and they are using
different barrels, whether it's

French oak, American oak, you
know, Sherry barrels, you name

it, people are jumping into it.
But the great thing about what

story would is it's not just a
limited edition.

It's whatever we do will always
be in our range and there'll be

a reason why we did it.
And that's really telling a

story behind the people behind
the barrel.

It starts from the Cooper's and
then is aged in bourbon, and

then, you know, those bourbon
barrels come over to Scotland.

There's people that handle those
Scotch goes into it, then

they're sent to the Coop Bridge.
We go out, select all our cast

and then ship them over to
Mexico.

Yeah, there's a fingerprint
behind that, that barrel of the

amount of people that are behind
it.

And that's the authentic part of
story we're trying to tell

people about.
It's a story through oak and

flavor, and that's really what
makes it quite unique.

That's fantastic.
And I know you're selling in

USUK, Australia, other
countries, but if we take US and

UK just out of simplicity, they
are two totally different

countries in terms of tequila
knowledge and Scotch knowledge

and one it's the home turf on
one and the other one in the

other now.
And it's kind of like if they

are in the antibods of each
other now in that sense.

So in terms of understanding and
and consumer preferences, did

you see differences?
Yeah, I mean, so we started, we

had to start on home base,
right?

Just, you know, bringing it over
to the UK made the most sense to

try and figure out how to sell
it first.

And tequila has gone in leach
and bangs in terms of the uptake

that consumers have had here in
the UK is definitely on more

menus.
People are definitely drinking

it.
People know about 100% agave,

they know about mixed dose.
They understand quality.

So that that bit's great tequila
that are sort of 40 lbs and

above still struggle to kind of
move the needle, I would say.

And you're kind of in between 20
lbs and 35 seems to be on the

flight the sweet spot.
But you know, as a small brand,

it's very easy to think, OK, I'm
going to go here, I'm going to

go there.
I'm going to, you know, all

these people are coming to me
wanting pallets.

That feels like a great thing.
We're going to ship them all

over the place, but you lose
focus so quick, right?

So, and that's kind of what we
did throughout in 2020 when

COVID hit, when we properly
launched the brand, we really

had to go out into different
markets just to bring some

revenue through the door.
But what happened was we

realized that being such a small
team, we just couldn't support

all these markets once things
kind of got back from normal.

So we really kind of focused on
on more of a, you know, an inch

wide and a mile deep rather than
the other way around.

And you're going into markets
where consumers understand super

premium tequila seemed like the
right place to go.

So we aligned with the right
distributor in Texas.

Well, first and foremost, we
align with the right importer in

the US if you had a portfolio of
great Scotch whiskies.

So that was the perfect place
for us to be in.

And then from there, because
that importer is pitching all

their Scotch whiskies to, you
know, 50 different states of

distributors who are are asking
them about Scotch whiskey.

And then we kind of come in the
back going, oh, and guess what,

we are tequila aged and Scotch
whiskey barrel.

So that's kind of the cool thing
about how we aligned with the

right people.
And that's definitely a big part

of any anyone's growth is you
got to find the right partners.

But yeah, just kind of, I'm
probably dragging this on a bit,

but just like in Virginia alone,
we just got 300 retail stores

there just recently.
And that's a huge win for us in

300 retail stores.
We could never get in 300 retail

stores and in the UK.
So it's just find your market,

figure out how to support those
and get behind them.

I mean, specs got behind us from
the early days.

Total Wine, Benny's, support
those accounts and go and see

them.
Like I was just over in specs a

few weeks ago.
I couldn't get any tastings

aligned because it was too late
in the game, but I just went in

and spoke to their sales staff,
just had a chat with them.

I've spoke to some consumers
that were hanging about it at

the Scotch whiskey aisle, signed
a couple of bottles.

I mean, just whatever you got to
do, just just do it.

That's the number one thing.
Be there, show up, do everything

you can.
And, and eventually, like you

say, you know, that one bottle
turns to a case and and so on

and so on.
It's the trickle effect.

Yeah, this is nearly 10 years
from three years of R&D at the

first stage and then, you know,
COVID hitting.

I've gone through some crazy
other things in terms of

investment rounds.
It's an up and down roller

coaster.
But from a sales point of view,

if you pick the right partners,
you show up in the market, you

show people love and you know,
it does work.

It just takes then, you know,
we're at face 10 years.

We're not even a 10 year
overnight success yet.

You know, that's how long it
takes.

But it's, it's funny, I actually
had a conversation with Mr. Tito

himself and he told me all this
stuff as well.

He was like, you know, think of
all these brands in an hour

glass, you know, 10s of
thousands of brands.

You got to figure out how you're
going to cut through them.

Yeah, it's not an overnight
success.

You got to put time in, work
hard and along the way, you

know, those small wins will
equal 1 big one eventually.

You know, speak to people.
Yeah, I speak to everyone

honestly.
Like people think I'm nuts.

I've gone in LinkedIn with like,
you know, CE OS of some of the

biggest spirit companies in the
world.

And and I've just, you know,
shot him a message.

I've tried.
If you don't ask, you don't

know.
And for a lot of the times, I've

got a reply back, it might not
be anything happening today, but

we're on the radar, like we're
there and they know about us.

And so if you're not doing
little things like that, you're

not moving your brand forward.
There's a lot of Trump packing

what you said, because the first
thing is on this kind of like

you're avoiding spreading
yourself to thin now because

that when I write on LinkedIn
about these things, always talk

about winning the home turf.
And people are commenting is

like, no, but you cannot do it
because like here in the home

turf is tough and like we want
to go and export, but people

always think the grass is always
greener on the other side now.

But ultimately there is a thin
line in understanding, OK, one

thing is an opportunity because
you need it for financial

reasons.
Now it's like I need to sell

that pilot And that's fine, you
know, and I would say you have

to think, will I regret what I'm
doing today to get this cash in

or not?
Because if you won't regret it,

then go for it.
But if, if you are setting

yourself for kind of like
disaster because you're doing

that, then you have to think
about it twice.

And, and the same thing is about
the story about winning the one

KS in one bar versus the six
bottles in six bars.

It's always the bar version of
the importer.

If you can manage to go to those
bars.

And I, I saw your LinkedIn post
there the other day and I loved

it.
Like you just said, I just went

in and I signed a few bottles
and which is great because I

mean, that's what usually
people, authors of books do not

like in airports or in book
floors and so on.

And it's super cool because I
saw it and I said that's super

smart of Michael because it's a
small thing.

You can amplify it on social
media.

You can get it there.
It's you walking into that

store, it's you showing up for
something.

And maybe I mean, like you're
talking about maybe I don't know

how many you sign, you know,
5/10/15, whatever it was, but

you know, like it's 5/10/15
consumers that are going to buy

it.
So automatically people think

like, OK, why should I bother
for 15 people, you know, but

it's what you can do.
Exactly.

And also, I mean, I do exactly
the same with the podcast.

Like you don't know how many
people I literally myself

followed my podcast on their
phone.

You know, sometimes like, oh,
you have a podcast and they hand

me their phone on Spotify.
Can you type it in for me?

Boom, I just put like the follow
button, you know, and, and that

night I got 2 followers.
You know, it's like it's two

followers, I mean, on the
thousands of listeners.

But those are the two that first
of all, they can tell a story of

How I Met them, and then it's me
proving that I can master

unscalable things so that I can
scale in the future.

Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I had a bit of a problem

with that when I first started
the brand, just kind of telling

people about it and putting
myself out there and, you know,

signing bottles and things.
And I guess I was a little bit

of quite conservative and and
almost shy in a way.

You know, it's like, I didn't
want to be too.

Oh yeah, this is my brand.
But yeah, it's very much is a,

it's a founder brand.
You know, people connect with it

because they connect with the
story.

It's authentic.
And if you're not putting

yourself out there in the right
way, there's the right way to

talk to people about your brand.
And there's the kind of

showboating about your brand.
You know, we don't want to do

that kind of stuff, but it's
that authentic conversation.

You just got to have the
conversation with someone

because, you know, like you're
saying there's 1015 people in

Tibet could potentially speak
to.

They're going to tell someone
whoever they have at the house

that that they're pouring a
story would for they're going to

be like, oh, I actually met that
guy today.

He was in TBACS.
And then, yeah, that person will

probably buy a bottle.
And it's, you know, it's that

effect if you're not actually,
if you're not actually doing it,

you're not going to sell that
much of it.

So you just have to put yourself
out there.

And that's something that I
really learned from the very

beginning.
Just get out there and speak to

people no matter what.
It doesn't matter, you know,

head up people on LinkedIn, you
would have never thought you'd

head up.
I mean, you just might get

somebody that comes back and
says, hey, actually, you know,

I've been watching the brand.
Really love what you're doing.

And it could turn to an
opportunity.

You never know.
But if you don't ask, you're,

you'll never know the answer to
that question.

So we have to do things
differently as as small brands

you got to cut through the
bigger brands one more one way

or another and and find the
right people to speak to so.

I agree.
And, and, and, and I think you

named it there on the fact that
you when you sell is a right way

of doing it.
Now you can do it in a show of

fee kind of way, or you can do
it in that kind of like humbler

way.
But ultimately, I mean, if you

don't believe in your products,
like it, it's funny.

Like I was at Bar Convent.
It's a funny story.

Maybe, you know, the person in
the involved is listening to

you.
Then I, you know, I was

introduced to someone at Bar
Convent and I was like, yeah.

And he has a podcast and and
then this person left and, and

then I was there with this
person.

And then I said, oh, so you have
a podcast.

And I said, yeah, yeah, yeah.
You should listen to it.

You'll love it.
It's just that you already know

that I love it.
I said, yeah, I mean, I know it

came off a little bit off, but
then we spoke about it and we

laugh about it.
And I say I know it because not

because it's mine, but because I
get feedback and because if you

are someone involved in the
industry, because many other

people from the industry love
the podcast, I'm sure that you

will love it.
If I'm not selling my own

product, who should, you know?
Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, totally.

And.
Yeah, the the your podcast has

so much purpose, right?
It it reaches out to all

different types of people who
want to listen to it.

It's educational.
It's you know, you embody that

whole purpose behind the
podcast.

So it's a proud moment for you
to go and tell somebody about

it.
And that's exactly the same with

with story would I just had to
understand that, you know, where

it's it's a proud thing to have
a brand to think about bringing

other people into the team and,
you know, employing passionate

people who love the brand as
much as I do, working with

amazing distillers and Coopers.
And you know that it's a proud

thing.
So you just got to get behind

that and get out there and do
it.

And that's the one piece of
advice I can tell anybody if

you're at the bottom of starting
a brand or if you're going

through, you know, stages, like
we all go through these up and

down moments, but you just got
to try and keep the foot on the

gas.
I say play offense 90% of the

time and play deep defense 10%.
Really fucking good.

You know, that's the one thing
that I I should have done a

while ago, but that's very much
the path forward now.

Be on offense.
Fantastic.

So I think this is a great way
to to wrap up the podcast

because it's a fantastic advice
and I want to leave some space

telling people where they can
find you story would and how to

reach out to you if they want to
and the stage is yours.

Yeah, yeah.
You can get us on Master Mall

here in the UK.
We're also on

findgoodspirits.com in the US,
so we can can ship it into the

US anywhere over there.
Specs Benny's Total Wine as

well.
And then, yeah, if anybody wants

to reach out to me, my, my door
is always open.

[e-mail].
Hit me up.

Let's chat.
Yeah, that's, that's about it,

man.
Thank you so much for having me

on.
I really appreciate it.

We're going to have to do this
at least not not four years from

now.
We're going to have to see each

other a lot sooner than that
face to face.

I will, we will do.
And finally, hopefully, we'll

manage to get a glass together,
like to enjoy it together so

that I can finally taste your
tequila.

Absolutely, we'll do it.
Thank you.

Thank you, Michael.
OK, Chris, thanks late.

It's great to speak to you.
That's a wrap on today's

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