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Follow our journey as we build and launch two startups. Hosted by Matt Wensing, founder of Summit, and Peter Suhm, founder of Reform.
Are you good?
Matt:I'm looking for that QuickTime thing. One second. Your computer, so
Peter:The other day, I just I couldn't remember what it was called. I just I the name had just escaped me.
Matt:Like muscle memory. Yeah. It's muscle memory.
Peter:I couldn't even remember what letter it started with.
Matt:You're gonna have to it's hard to find.
Peter:It's hard to find because it's, like, not in my menu bar. You know?
Matt:That is hilarious. Alright. QuickTime is recording. Sweet.
Peter:Yeah, dude. I literally think the last time we talked was, like, last last time we had a podcast.
Matt:Oh, the last time we had, like, a a a synchronous Yeah.
Peter:I mean, like, we talk in in in, in Telegram, stuff like that,
Matt:but
Peter:an actual conversation, I told Maya and she was like, you know, the Obi Wan Kenobi thing from Star Wars. That's a name I haven't heard in a long time.
Matt:But it's good to see you again, Jedi.
Peter:Yeah. Likewise. We should do this more often.
Matt:Some people want us to do it every week, but we're not gonna do that.
Peter:Yeah. No. Sorry. Thanks to Justin Jackson for, for keeping the feet alive. So we actually were able to publish this episode.
Matt:That's true. What a nice what a nice gesture. What a nice more than a gesture. Thank you.
Peter:Yeah.
Matt:But it's good to see you again, man.
Peter:Yeah. And, I don't know. Felt like you had a bit of news, and then we I don't know. This was like an I know we did our finale, but maybe now is a good time to, do a final final that that Photoshop.
Matt:Yeah. The this is the this is and I think this won't be lost in our audience. This is the Peter Jackson decides to fade in again. Yeah. To the shine.
Peter:For the second time. Yeah.
Matt:Yeah. For the second time. It's like, what's going on? Yeah. So I have reached the end of this, entrepreneurial chapter of my career.
Matt:I almost don't wanna say it that way because I think I will be doing very entrepreneurial things, in the new role that I have. But, in terms of summit being my focus, that is changed as of today.
Peter:But you but you haven't sold summit. Right? I think that's one of the first questions I saw on Twitter.
Matt:Yeah. I have not sold summit. The the at this point I just got a really compelling offer from Customer. Io. There's conversations to be had yet and decisions to be made yet around Summit, the IP, the company, if you will, the equity, etcetera.
Matt:But in terms of the products running it as a subscription service, having customers marketing it, the website, all of that, will be taken down here. So I can focus on on the new thing. And, yeah, we'll kinda figure out what to do with, the 5 year technology investment, if you will.
Peter:I I don't I don't even know what to say.
Matt:Surprise. Yeah. Yeah.
Peter:I mean, first of all, I from what I've heard you like, I mean, I've been sort of, like, following along on the sidelines a a bit when you've been talking to customer. Do you say customer dot io, or do you just say customer?
Matt:I say customer io.
Peter:Yeah. Customer io. Yeah. And yeah. So first of all, I wanna say congratulations because it sounds like you're gonna get, like, your dream position there.
Peter:And yeah. It's just, it seems like it's, I mean, it is tailor made to you. Yeah. It's not like it was
Matt:Yeah. Yeah. That's probably something fun to talk about that that's that I can that I can share and that's not, you know, I don't have to worry about anything. Yeah.
Peter:Yeah. I don't wanna, like, lead you too much because, like, it's your story. I just wanna, like, make sure we tell it.
Matt:Yeah. So the story really, and and I'll I'll sort of share it as I've as I will share, publicly. So we we sent out a note to all of our customers a few weeks ago before Thanksgiving saying that the the service will be shutting down in early December. We would would have liked to give people even more time, but, I mean, the the the takeaway really is that the I could not get the business to work at the level that I wanted it to. Would it could I get it to work well enough to pay a salary or 2?
Matt:Yes. Could I get it to work well enough to be a big venture return for people and turn into a big company? I tried to do that for as long as, you know, sort of the company could afford to and basically got to the point where, we couldn't get distribution. And I've it's funny because I've talked a lot about distribution, this year on Twitter and on LinkedIn. I think it's probably the most critical thing.
Matt:It's also really easy to misunderstand. And even knowing that I needed to make it happen, I couldn't make it happen. And I think that that can be different for different companies. I think everybody knows the slow SaaS ramp of death, and and obviously the of death part is kinda tongue in cheek because, hey, if it's a ramp, it's a ramp. That's great.
Matt:You know? And and some things were kind of working, like we were actually doing, outreach on LinkedIn, cold outreach. It wasn't that expensive, but the if you run the funnel math, let's put it that way, I could not get the customer acquisition funnel math to work in a way that was kinda gonna be worth it, to me and to investors on a time frame that made sense. And there's a lot of ways to fix the funnel math. You know?
Matt:You could look at conversion rates, you can look at, the top of funnel, etcetera. I think for us it was kind of a combination of conversion rates in top of funnel, which I realize is sort of like saying the whole funnel. But but if you hear me right, I'm I'm saying that it wasn't retention. I wouldn't blame retention. It wasn't the pricing.
Matt:I think people were willing to pay a fair price when they were happy. It wasn't the value. I think the value was there once people got the value, But I think, self-service adoption was not something that we could, invest enough in. I think there was also a path there where, hey, if I could have an Aaron Francis for a month, crank out some amazing content, you know, and and educate the world on how to use Summit, I think that would probably be the right way to do it. I think I think we got to the point where we realized, hey, this product is more like Figma than it is like Twitter or X or or whatever where you just type and hit a button.
Matt:You know, this is a this is a tool. It's a it takes effort to learn, but I don't think we could invest enough in the education and the materials to really get people to learn it. And then the top of funnel, I will say I spent a year trying to solve top of funnel, over a year through partnerships. I think after trying to do SEO, paid ads, LinkedIn, social media, organic content, blogging, all of this stuff, YouTube content. I mean, I invested as much as I could in as many channels as I could.
Matt:You'd break out the Gabriel Weinberg book. Right? And, and and go through those. I think where I was left was partnerships and funny enough one of those partnerships was a company called Customer IO. I got to know them over a year learned a ton about them learned about their vision kind of got reacquainted with Colin.
Matt:I think Colin's a person that I've always admired from the periphery, and I kind of learned it was mutual. And so just getting to know Customer IO again, much closer than I did before and Zapier and HubSpot and Stripe and, some others try to work through these partnerships on a product side. It's kinda interesting because I got to learn a lot about the products the products that our partners and sort of quasi competitors had. I don't think I would call us a competitor to any of those because they just have features we were never gonna have. But it gave me a kind of a a wider view of the market.
Matt:And I realized sometime kind of in the early fall that, you know, okay, I have and we have something that these companies could really benefit from, But we couldn't really get the stars to align from a timing and adoption standpoint in the sense that we could sort of be an independent company and benefit from it. So, and and for different reasons for each of those companies. So, so, yeah, I I kinda realized that Summit was not going to get the distribution, magic that we needed. And I say magic again because I think there was a very slow growth path that we could have kept going along, and and we actually had some months where we revenue would jump because we would land a really big customer. But I wanted predictable growth, and I wanted, you know, fast predictable growth.
Matt:And I I kind of talked to all those companies and just share my own story. Customer IO is the one that after, you know, several rounds of conversation just went, wow. You know, they, this might be a good place to put a comma or at least a period. Customer IO is a really special it's it's it's a special place, and it's at a special time in its own life cycle where I just got really interested in it as a as a team, as a company, as an opportunity, to to join.
Peter:Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. It's like, I'm kind of, like, while as you were talking, like, I'm kinda thinking, like, what's the job of a founder, early stage founder? And, like, one way to look at it is, like, you're essentially hired by investors to go out and explore a domain or something and sort of see if there is, if there is some business model there or, like, some constellation there that works as a business and you're sort of like you're you're sent out as almost like an explorer.
Peter:And and the whole way that it works is like sometimes you find something and sometimes you don't find something, you know? And you literally turned every stone there to turn. Like, I've seen your use have, like, every positioning possible, like like, I that I couldn't even imagine up front for Summit. I've seen you, like, take it from a pricing point for, like, $20 a month to, like, $20 a month. You know?
Peter:Like, it's like you have literally turned every stone. Imagine a bit. And then at some point, you have to be like, okay. Is it I wish and and I think, like, it's it's it's fair to say that investors sort of agreed that it's like, yeah, we've explored this now. And maybe it's okay to, like, move on or explore other things.
Matt:Yep. Yeah. That's really well said. Like, I I always believed I was getting closer. And I was talking to somebody earlier this week and told them that with the benefit of hindsight, I could get to where I'm at faster.
Matt:And I think where I got to was like the highest point on the mountain that I could get to. I think to get to an even higher point in the mountain, I would have to take more risk, and I think investors would have to take more risk, which is like, you know, a different version of me. I I I use the multiverse as almost like a therapeutic way of looking at the world and saying, like, okay, if I could just snap my fingers and change anything about my situation, about myself, about my network, what would I do? I do think there's a version of of Summit and a founder like myself that goes through y Combinator, raises, you know, 6 to $10,000,000 seed round from a Sequoia or or or a Bessemer or somebody, you know, a tier 1 VC and spends it on just aggressive marketing customer acquisition, builds a sales team, builds a product and platform team, and just attacks the market. And I think you see that with companies like Airtable, maybe Notion and some others, Figma perhaps where very horizontal great product but just the resources and capital to also attack the market in a way that is really really aggressive and it's the right approach but it's just also really risky.
Matt:Like you could do that. You could put a sticker valuation in your company of a quarter mill quarter $1,000,000,000 suddenly, but it's not actually worth that yet. Like you have to actually then go and succeed at that aggressive customer acquisition and marketing, etcetera. And when you when I run that in my head, I think the most helpful thing and I think a blog post about this maybe maybe will come during the Christmas holiday when I'm not working on summit or customer. Io, would be the expected value calculation at some point you go, okay.
Matt:Even if I could snap my fingers and have all the resources I think I need to acquire the partnerships I think I need, would I end up with an outcome that in all likelihood is better than the outcome that's in front of me, you know, by joining a company like Customer IO and, even not as a founder but but at this stage. And when I run that math again it's very probabilistic but when I run that math knowing everything I know about the company I've just joined and everything I know about summit I think I come out in a very, uncertain place around you know not a lot of confidence that sticking with summit is the right answer. Let's put it that way. I think I think right more often than I could be wrong but I think even given that the expected value that I can not only receive but also create in the world is higher joining Customer IO at this point. And
Peter:Right. And, like, whether something is working out also, like, depends on the viewer, you know, like because there's like, maybe in a world where maybe in a world where you had hadn't had your first win, like, you've already had a win previously from another startup. And maybe in a world where you had little kids and didn't wanna, like, you know, didn't want, like, a a busy job or whatever. Like, maybe it would have been more attractive to you to sort of, like, see if there's a way for you to just like, because some is was summit was more successful than probably many people we know in sort of the India hackerspace that have been doing something for 10 years because yeah. Right.
Peter:It made money and it made enough money that you could have decided that, yeah, this is this is, you know, good enough for me, but that's not what you were trying to do. And it's definitely not what your investors were trying you what wanted you to do. Right? So
Matt:Yeah. I appreciate that. It's a good perspective. Like, I we hit several of those milestones that people dream about from a, you know, independent SaaS bootstrapper perspective. But those weren't the ones I wanted.
Matt:Right? And and those aren't good enough for me given the stage I'm at with the goals I have with the success I've had in the past. And so people can kinda fill in what those might be, but, yeah, they are those ones of like, wow, this could be like, if I really wanna keep doing this, I could probably find a way.
Peter:Yeah. You could make it
Matt:And that's actually
Peter:a good little job for yourself.
Matt:Sure. Yeah. Exactly. Like and and it's kinda what I did with the 1st startup I had, and and it that's why it took 15 years because I I just was determined to make it work kind of on any time horizon. Right?
Matt:It didn't matter the time horizon. So interestingly enough, I I kinda had the opportune I was at a very similar place with Summit right now as I was with my first company probably in 2,009, 2010. And I chose in the in that era of my life to actually get a job, keeps keep the company running on the side, go back to it, get another job, go back to it. Like, I kept it on life support and going because I I believe that it would be something someday. And, like, eventually, time, you know, eventually that paid off.
Matt:Right? And and so it became a 15 year I didn't you know, I've been at Summit for 5 years now. I didn't want another 15 year thing. I was I wanna spend the next 10 years of my life on board with something that's working. Right?
Matt:And so I kinda gave myself those 5 years with Summit now to say this needs to be working by my definite my my definition of success circa 2024 with 3 kids in high school and 1 in college at the age of 43, and it and having some success in the past. And and and therefore, door number 2 just made a lot more sense this time, and and saying, you know, time does matter more. And and I wouldn't wanna just have the same level of success as I did with the last company again because that doesn't really that doesn't make a lot of sense, right, for me. And and for a venture investor, it didn't either. Right?
Matt:And so that it it became a no brainer to say, let me find something that is a better capitalizes, and I choose that word very intentionally in the capitalism sense, better capitalizes on my talents and time. And I think that's what this is. So Yeah. To that extent, it's it's very logical, albeit bittersweet.
Peter:Yeah. Of course. Yeah. I mean, we'll definitely talk about what your new role is, but there's just there's a sort of one thing that I can't really, like, stop thinking about as well, which is, like, I feel like because we were, like, if not the 2 first, some of definitely some of the first investments that Robin Einer did in tiny seed. I'm pretty sure I was the first, and I'm pretty sure you were, like, almost the same time because we met
Matt:That was second.
Peter:Yeah. And, and I think we're, like it's funny because in some way, we're, like, the exception that sort of proves the rule for tiny seat because we're the we're sort of the odd ones. Like, I had like, I didn't have a product really yet. I had, I had, like, a product product demo, basically. Like a like a hard code thing on my computer and a and an early access list.
Peter:But then I had WP pusher, which was sort of paying my bills. So I sort of had this, like, longer runway just because of that. So but I didn't have anything, like, resembling product market fit or anything because I hadn't even launched the product yet. The tiny seat was funding. So that was, like, sort of not at all their, you know, their thesis.
Peter:And then you you had sort of similar thing. Like, you also had, like, an early prototype of, like, this tool that maybe run simulations for SaaS companies. And it was, like, very aligned with this whole world that Rob and I are in. So, like, yeah, sort of makes sense. But Yeah.
Peter:But also definitely not proven in any way, shape, or form yet. Like, hadn't launched, didn't have any customers or anything like that.
Matt:Correct.
Peter:And then so we raised under those terms, but we were much more, like, venture cases than, like, bootstrapper cases. And it just sort of, like it definitely, like, gave us a difficult start, I think, compared to, like, it Agreed. It it dragged out certain things maybe and also, like, made certain things more difficult. Just because, like, the terms are not really like, from the beginning, the terms that we started on weren't really, like, tailored for what we were doing, I feel like.
Matt:Yeah. I I I thought that I was more aligned with that approach, having done what I did before and going down the venture path and saying, you know, I'm just gonna I'm gonna do the lifestyle thing this time. You know? And I think the misalignment there
Peter:You also hadn't sold your previous company then.
Matt:That's true. Not quite yet.
Peter:You were just on the board or something. Right? Kind
Matt:of yeah. I was totally I was it was just dabbling. So Yeah. They took a flyer on me and my reputation. I always appreciate that.
Matt:I don't think I think without that summit wouldn't have been the journey it was. I think these days, and I might get in trouble for this, but I would characterize tiny seed as kind of micro private equity. Yeah. That's a
Peter:And what I'm saying
Matt:What I mean by that is that the businesses that they're investing in are very z risked. Their businesses. Yeah. They are very serious.
Peter:That's actually your quote, I think.
Matt:Yeah. They are they are businesses. They're they're they're profitable profitable with small software businesses and occasionally unprofitable when people want them to be.
Peter:But yeah, they're not really investing. They're they're they're buying a stake in a
Matt:business. They're buying a stake in it. That's right. And I think that portfolio makes sense for them because it removes the downside becomes like a 1 to 3 x, and the upside is relatively uncapped. I think the upside you know, what they're what they don't get very often is runaway valuations that make things silly and and explode, like, implode like bad rockets.
Matt:But then they do occasionally get the 10 x or 50 x or a 100 x or is still in the mix. But those are those, like I said, are are businesses looking they kinda have already gone through a one s curve at least of growth, and they're almost looking for their breakout growth on top of their existing growth. It's like they've grown to a point where they're healthy and stable and supporting a team of 1 or 2 or 3 or whatever it is. Yeah.
Peter:And they don't actually need TinySeed necessarily. So TinySeed also is
Matt:like they need it. Yeah.
Peter:They have to offer, like, other forms of that of value as well. Like, every every time someone asks me about TinySeed, they always say, yeah, like, the money I sort of get. But, like, what's the other thing I get? Like, can you tell me more about, like, they always wanna know, like
Matt:because I can print some more money if I just Right. 6 months. Yeah.
Peter:Yeah. Exactly. So why like, people sort of need to feel like they need to justify, like, having them on on board. So it's they're more interested in, like, the mentoring and, like, the network and stuff like that.
Matt:Yeah. Which is great. And and I've I've enjoyed chatting and getting to know those, those founders, and I'll continue to mentor as best I can. I mean, one thing I'm really excited about, honestly, is I've not been a part of a company like Customer. Io in terms of the stage.
Matt:It's beyond the stage that I was at, you know, when I was, you know, at my last company. Yeah. And it's now oh, I I just heard music kick in. That's that's a weird byproduct of, of iOS or yeah. Here we go.
Matt:Phone rang, and my Spotify started playing. I do not understand that glitch. But here here I am. So let's rewind. One thing I'm excited about in terms of gaining my own life experience and maybe passing along to others is I've not been a part of a, and I I'm actually trying to think of a better metaphor than rocketship because I I just I'm so tired of that.
Matt:Customer I owe to me is a it's it's better than a rocketship. It's sort of a, just a sturdy plane that just keeps gaining altitude. Right? And it's it's like it's just fantastic in that sense. And I've not been on one of those before.
Matt:And so I I'm excited to be on the inside of a company that's at that stage. It's gonna give me, I think, a new perspective on growth at a scale that I've not seen before from that.
Peter:Yeah. It's like it's not just a product that's working. It's also the company's working. Right?
Matt:Yes. It is a it is definitely a they're in the company formation stage where they're investing heavily in, you know, leadership and, instrumentation and all of the things that are gonna talent acquisition and recruiting, and they're building a company of people. And, like, the limiting factor for them at this point is, people, talent, like getting the right people on board. This is another thing that I was really excited about is what I get to I get to be on board. And frankly, if it's good enough for me, I think it's good enough to hire more great people, frankly, like, if I use my own self as a measure.
Matt:So I think they, they haven't even close to peaked in I think the next 2 to 3 years. And I wanna be a part of this for as long as I can. I, you know, I look at this as a 5 to 10 year. I told him when I was talking to him, I said, you know, I do things either for a month or 4 or 5 to 10 years. Those are my 2, you know, those are my 2 things, 2 modes.
Matt:Right? I'm either all in for a long time or I quickly realize it's not a fit. And since I've been talking to them for a year already, I feel like it's more likely to be the the long term thing. And so from that standpoint, I see this as something that could be a great fit for a while. And, yeah, really excited about the role.
Peter:Yeah. So tell us what the role is.
Matt:Yeah. So so this was and and maybe I can share some stuff that'll be helpful for others. I talked to other founders that might find themselves in this situation. I talked to, I considered maybe 5 or 6 different ways that I could take this. And and I would say what was nice is each of those companies and places was at a different stage in their own journey.
Matt:I talked to some I talked to one company that was still 8 people, And they had just raised, I think, $15,000,000 from a large VC. And the founder was on the phone with me, and they were building something incredible in the AI space. And I was blown away, but I was like, you know, too early. Like, I'm not, you know too early for me talked to and so it's and then I talked you know on the other end of the spectrum talked to a company that had 10,000 plus employees right in terms of of potentially being a fit. It was super interesting for me because even the process of talking, emailing, interviewing, chatting, exploring, really inner you know, really talking through the role and defining the role and figuring it out all the way to the end.
Matt:Like, it was completely different for all of those. And I think that's a testament to, like, each one of those is just a very different stage of maturity. And not necessarily maturity in the in, like, a in a single direction, but, like, maturity in the sense of, like, animals evolve and become many different kinds of animals. Right? So one of them had become, you know, just a very locked in, very, like, high on little high on themselves in terms of we can choose from anybody we want to in the world at any given day.
Matt:And, like, we have a very long drawn out interview process, and you have to jump over all these things. And, like, I wasn't you know, the the the conversations are very different in terms of exploring the role because they're like, we decide everything. You show up, and if there's a fit, great. But it wasn't like a two way street, all the way to people. You know, some of the people I talked to almost needed me to, like, consult with them just to help them figure out if they needed my skills, you know, like completely opposite end.
Matt:So that was interesting. And I would say, customer IO was somewhere kind of the Goldilocks in the middle where it was awesome to talk to Colin and Brian and Matthew and other members of their team, you know, at the c level and really explore the opportunity, what they're doing, my role. And I would say it was a nice, dance in terms of it felt equal in terms of I was contributing to the thought process. They were influencing and telling me what they really needed. And so I I felt like it was very, reciprocal in that sense.
Matt:And that was a good feeling compared to I feel like over here, I'm almost, like, trying to drive this conversation with people who are maybe really not even sure. Like they have a foggy idea but not sure. And then all the way other a sense of like I don't know like yes we do. Obviously we do but I don't know if it's really you or not or whatever and it was just very kind of in between. And then and then there was a few like customer IO that were kind of near kind of triangulating around the center point where I was like okay all of these are going well.
Matt:All these feel pretty nice and CosmoRow ended up being the best fit because they are specifically looking for me and I would say others like me to really apply the skills, the founder skills, the entrepreneurial mindset that I have, that we have internally there to keep them going fast. But I would say not do that in an immature way of let's go fast and break things, but a how do we make everything go fast and everything go faster so that we don't ossify and slow down. Like, we don't want growth to slow. They're they're a really awesome place, and they want growth to keep keep going fast. And so they're sort of very aware of their own need for innovation, their own need for interdepartmental, kind of cross functional, interdisciplinary, all those things, that breadth and depth aspect of being a founder brings.
Matt:And so I get to basically bring my whole self to work, which is really neat. Like, they they don't you know, with this role, it's not a, hey, you know, go into linear and look at the issues and kind of work on those and then let us know when you're done and then ask the designer to do the designs. It's they don't want to create bottlenecks like that. So, I'll be on a small team of, people like myself, working directly with the CTO in this case. His name is Matthew Newhook.
Matt:He's awesome. And really working on innovation with, AI as the primary theme. So because I spent the last year really focusing summit on AI tooling, the cutting edge, obviously, yes, ChatGbt, OpenAI, APIs, all of that. But it there's a lot more to it than just using making API calls as we all know. I'm excited that it takes advantage of what I've been thinking a lot about lately, but also is a very horizontal role.
Matt:And and honestly, everything from project management, product management, leadership from a influence and and vision standpoint, you know, they want me to understand their vision and then and then extend it, but also coding. So, you know, developing new features, prototyping new things. It's really it's not just a meetings and management kind of role. It's very, it's it's very much about getting my hands dirty.
Peter:And Oh, that's cool. Some r and d work there. Yes.
Matt:Yeah, definitely. And then then it becomes the question of and and this is sort of this sort of, a little bit of hand waving here. I don't wanna share too much, but then then it's the question of, okay, yeah, what does it mean for a healthy r and d function or a healthy innovation or product development function to exist at a company like this? Like, how do you then what what are you learning? How are you learning it?
Matt:How are you applying it? How do you scale it? You know, the scale that customer is operating at is really impressive. You could see the numbers in their website, but we're talking, you know, 100 of millions of messages getting sent all the time. And so this is not a hack on stuff and ship it, you know, on a Friday night kind of operation.
Matt:So there's some fun challenges there of of, yeah, I think we all wonder, like, regardless of our stage, whether you're a tiny c company that just took some money and you gotta innovate, you know, the next growth curve, or you're, you know, freaking Facebook or Meta saying, how do we innovate on top of this giant thing? It it the really impressive thing, I think, that we're coming back to or I keep coming back to at this stage in my career now that I've seen kind of the 0 to 1 is, how do you innovate once you've already broken out so that you can grow more or again? I think that's really hard. And I think you've seen that, to speak for you a little bit, but, like, Tailwind, I imagine, has similar challenges in terms of, like, that sucker's working. But, like, what do you do next?
Matt:Right? And what can you do next? And you kinda you have all these options in front of you, but, it's really I think it's a fun challenge.
Peter:Yeah. I mean, yeah, in a sense, like, we're sorta, like, done a similar thing, I guess. Like, just, you know, worked on our own things forever and then now like we try something completely different. And it is, I don't know, it's a great way to gain perspective. It's just to try a different journey or sort of like, be part of someone else's journey.
Matt:Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And I think one I think we're always trying to make meaning out of things, to rationalize things or to to we always wanna see a bigger picture. And so I for me, this is gonna sound out of left field.
Matt:Maybe this is a classic out of out of betaism. But, I went to I went to a went to a NFL football game recently, with my son, which is super cool. First time going in person to see see a Seahawks game. And, one thing you notice when you're there and you're seeing these athletes who are at like the top of their game playing is that, like, they come out and let's say that it's the quarterback or something. They come out, they're doing their stretching or whatever, pregame warming up.
Matt:And the you know, if they wanna warm up their arm, there's there's a there's a barrel of of footballs right there for them to just grab 1 and start throwing. And there's a person there to just catch the ball right when they start warming up. And then if they wanna do some, you know, calisthenics or whatever, there's like their their favorite equipment's just laying there, and it's ready for them to start using. And, and then guess what? The fans are all getting seated.
Matt:They didn't have to do any of that, and the tickets have already been sold, and the the their name is already up there in the thing and their helmets already sitting there exactly where they want it to be. And and you kinda get this realization that but but but then but here's what's funny is that in the highlight reel and at the end of the day, like, they're the star of the show. Like, they're they're who the fans have come to see. They're they're performing at a very, very high level. But you take that same person and you say, okay.
Matt:You don't have you don't have that equipment ready, you don't have that stuff there, you don't have a stadium, you don't have a home field, you don't have fans, why don't you go ahead and build all that, start a football team, create a club, get it to join the NFL, find an owner, find investors, figure out the logo, figure out this where you got that, and you go I don't know if the star quarterback in that case is gonna be as successful in life, right, in their life, in their path as just joining a team and saying, I'm a linebacker. I'm a receiver. I'm a quarterback. I do this. And everything else is just taken care of.
Matt:Right? Because that's not where the value is for that's not where you create the value. That quarterback creates the value on 3rd and 7 finding the open receiver and it takes 6 seconds and they pull off that amazing play. Having them spend time on or if they were to spend time on all that other stuff I mentioned, it it would prove something to themself. And I think a lot of those people end up going off and coaching later or even owning teams doing things more like that.
Matt:But if you look at their career, the way they created wealth for themselves and their families and their loved ones was actually being a contribute you know, being on a team and delivering that peak performance, that incredible play for those 4 to 6 seconds over and over and over again for all those years, and everything else is just sort of taken care of. And I got this picture in my mind of, like, as a I've been a founder for 20 years. And up until now, I love product. I love engineering. I love innovating.
Matt:I love doing all these other things. And I've I've always I've succeeded once and then, you know, casually, you know, to some extent succeeded again at creating everything else around me so that I could focus on what I believe my real talents are. But you have to consider that the quality of a system is measured by how how well the parts fit together, and I am a part of a system that's bigger than me. And so if I put myself in a position at my own company where I can only where the stage is only this big and there's only 12 people in the audience, and I've got to also sell the tickets, Yes. It's great to have the ability to say I did all of this, but you have to consider the fact that if your real goal in the end is to maximize the value that you create for the world so that you can maximize the value you create for your family and yourself and others.
Matt:You might consider that actually letting somebody else sell the tickets, build the stadium, create the team, recruit the other players, and you being on the field and just doing what you do best, you might actually make more money and have more success doing that than doing everything. Right? And that's what I'm all about for the next chapter.
Peter:And I'm Yeah. I mean, if you look at it that way, it's, like, it's an extreme level of focus that is, like, almost impossible to achieve in your own company. Right? Yes. And, and it's like, but at the same time, it's like, you can't really, I don't think you can.
Peter:It's hard to have one without having having tried the other, I think, because you are also like, the, like, your perspective now is different because you've tried it in your own company. So you're gonna you're gonna just gonna think about it differently than someone who where it was always like that for them.
Matt:Yes.
Peter:And and you also just, like, have, like, a such a wide perspective of things from being a founder. Yeah. But, yeah, I think I totally know what you're like, I have a few examples from my time at Tailwind where I, like, I felt the the basically, I've felt what that is like. You know? Like, one example I thought of while you were talking was, like, you know, with reform, I fought so hard for, like, SEO to work.
Peter:And I just put in so much, like, sweat. And yeah. I just worked hard, invested a lot of money into it. And and I learned a lot of SEO from it. But it's like, you know, it can only work so well, you know, at the level you're at.
Peter:And then Adam at some point with Tailwind, UI was like, you know a bunch of stuff about SEO. Right? You wanna, like, try to, like, do some SEO stuff here. And and, yeah, I go in and, like, do the whatever. Like, first of all, like, you need the Ahrefs account.
Peter:Right? It's, like, $250 a month. I wanted your own company. It's like, damn. That's a lot of money.
Peter:But then through them, it's like it's like, whatever, dude. Just buy as many as you need. You know?
Matt:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then gonna need a bigger one? Yeah.
Peter:Yeah. And then you're, like, start I start doing the analysis, and there's, like, one thing where we use a different word than the one that people are searching for. Like, we're technically using the right word, but people are searching for the wrong word. But from an SEO perspective, we were using the wrong word to describe the thing. Perfect.
Peter:So I sorta, like, made some tweaks. It's like 4 hours later it's showing up in Google for the new thing. Right? And it's because because then you have like Tailwind CSS which is like, you know, domain rank 90 something, you know, like just like top top website with like millions and millions of visitors every month. So it's just like it's a whole like you can use your skills at a like a whole different like magnitude basically.
Peter:Another thing was like that and another thing that's like different but I think sort of like the same ideas like in Tailwind like we we had some we had some like legal challenges to like get our trademark US trademark. And and I just know that if if it had been my own company like every time I received an email from the lawyer about it it would just paralyze me because they're to be so stressed out about it. Because it is like, it does have, like, really, like, big implications. But then I was sort of put on this project at Tailwind, and it's like, it's not my own company. And it's I just able to like have a clear focus and just like just leave out all the like you know existential dread and just like focus on the actual like task and then yeah and then you know, it's so we sorted it out, and it was great.
Peter:But, yeah, it's just it's so different. Like and and you but you don't have that perspective if you haven't tried doing it for yourself.
Matt:Oh, for sure. I mean, I and I I I didn't have that perspective when I started my first job out of college. I gained some perspective on that when I built my first company. I was like, we were hiring people, and I was like, wow. The chair you're sitting in, the role you have, the money that it takes to pay you every couple weeks, it all exists because we figured it out and we created all that.
Matt:But at the same time, they were creating more value by joining us and doing that than if they had to figure all that out for themselves because it it would be a waste of their skill and their time and their talent. Now if they want that perspective and they wanna learn that and gain those lessons because then they can turn around and apply that elsewhere, great. But strictly speaking, you know, pick your star. Let's pick Messi because everyone knows him. It wouldn't have it's better that he did what he did on the field probably than if he would have started his own soccer team and and from scratch or league from scratch and and done all that in theory, maybe.
Matt:Right? And that and you can go back and forth, but I now have I now will get to maybe finish out my career, possibly having done both. And I'm really excited about that. And and, you know, to be really clear, I I can also understand why people go, you know, but the reward isn't there if I just contribute, you know, at my level. And I get that.
Matt:And so, you know, the incentives matter, and I think you have to make sure that you're aligned at a level where you can be motivated.
Peter:Yeah. And you know who understands
Matt:situation you have.
Peter:And you and you know who understands, like, sort of, like, what those incentives needs to be. That's a founder. Like, you sort of understand, like, those mechanisms in a company.
Matt:That's right. It made it very easy to talk about this, you know, having having done that before. That's you know, I I know the levers. I know the incentives. I knew what I was looking for.
Matt:And, end of the credit, you know, customer is turning out to be an awesome, you know, place to get started. I you know, I'm I'm only a day in technically, but, it feels like more than that just because I've been talking for so long. But, that's the I'll say that's the end of this chapter, and I'm happy with it.
Peter:That's awesome. Yeah. I think this the it's like, as we talked about, like, there would be a way for you to, like, turn Summit into more of like a bootstrapper lifestyle sort of thing but it's also not like that's actually not sustainable. Like there's this TV show I watch with this guy who lives in a farm and he's like sort of like a subsistence farmer. And and he's sort of selling that dream.
Peter:I've watched that TV show for, like, 15 years. It's very popular here in Denmark. And it's great, but it's like, you know how much the world would suck if everyone did that?
Matt:Correct. It Do
Peter:you know how much the world would suck if everyone had like a lifestyle bootstrapper business?
Matt:It's wow. That's that's that's super interesting. That's the follow-up blog post because yeah. You're right. I mean and guess what?
Matt:You get rewarded for starting John Deere or being the 3rd employee at John Deere or being the 5th employee at Conagra. And I'm not saying those companies are not evil or good or neutral or whatever, but capitalism rewards people that create systems and can create value for others. Right? So I mean, you look at the, 250th employee at Microsoft, they're probably doing just fine, you know, at this point. And and it was because they were a part of that.
Matt:Now after that, they can do something else. And maybe before that, they gained some perspective, etcetera. They had their own, you know, business or whatever. And so I I think both have their upsides, but I don't think the upside is necessarily limited on either side. I think it has a lot more to do with where you apply yourself, and do your give yourself the best opportunity for success in either role.
Matt:And then just an honest evaluation of, you know, which one of these actually has the best expected value if you wanna go down that path. And turns out the expected I I I'll finish with a little story, then I have to run to to a meeting, actually. I when I first went to so I went to 1 of the y combinator, what do they call them? I went to startup school which was sort of one of their early ways of getting people together pre demo day even I think. And it was probably it was the same, class that, Justin TV was about to join and and and whatnot.
Matt:And so I kind of spoil the story a little bit, but I went in I went to y Combinator and Jessica, literally answers the door and and I've got my suitcase there because I just flew in. Right? And I'm from SFO or SFO and I'm well, it took a I don't know if there was Uber yet, but I I got to the door somehow. She's like, are you gonna oh no or like you're early are you gonna like be here all day like what what do you do like what's your plan? It was just because I didn't know anybody else and I didn't know where else to be so just Lily showed up at YC's doorstep.
Matt:And I was like, oh no no no I just need to I just need to put my bag somewhere. She's like, oh, okay. Come on in. So I put my bag somewhere, and then I walked I walked away and found some coffee shop in Mountain View. But that that night, I went inside and and I was staying with some folks and know, this guy was standing next to me and, everybody was sort of starting out or hiring their first 10, 20 people, 5 people, 3 people.
Matt:And I stood next to this one dude and I was like, oh, yeah. What are you working on? And, he's like, oh, yeah. I I have this app and basically, like, if you were working on an an image on your computer and you make some changes to that image and you hit save, like, it updates on the other computer, like, automatically or whatever, and it, like, syncs all those changes or whatever. I was like, oh, well, that's cool.
Matt:Like, it sounds really neat. Like, good good luck with that. And I got a piece of paper from from one of people that that was there with him that night and opened it up. It was, like, printed out on an inkjet printer with this silly, you know, logo on the top, and it's, like, come join Dropbox and, you know, Times Roman font, and it had, like, an email address and a cell phone number on it or whatever. And and you know, it's probably employee 5 at that point and I was a Python developer so like that's what they were looking for.
Matt:I literally could have taken that and life would have been very, very different. Right?
Peter:Yeah.
Matt:Another guy walking around with a backpack on recording himself live, and it was Justin Conn, Justin TV, Twitch, like, could open that door and gone down that path. Sam Odeo was there and and, you know, Cruz and and, you know, all all these I dodged every every golden bullet that I could possibly dodge by saying no to all of those opportunities and saying, I'm gonna start my own thing. Right? And it worked out for me to an extent of, like, I learned a lot, But I always had this thought in my mind of, like, what what would life have been like if I had said yes to any of those opportunities and, like, join something else? Because I didn't ever get to experience that.
Matt:And I think for me to come back around 15 years later and have another opportunity to join something that is not it's not 5 people, but it's not 10,000 people, I I had I had to go through door number 2 this time. And, I'm just I'm really excited because I I will not regret I will not regret it this time. And, yeah, life life is life is great that way, and and, I don't regret that past decision. But I think if I stubbornly stuck to what I'm doing or have been doing with Summit just because, I think I would regret it.
Peter:Yeah. That's very well very well said. And I think, yeah, I'm just excited for you. And
Matt:Thanks, man.
Peter:I've always been, enjoying watching your steps. And, yeah, It's cool stuff. I'm excited for what's ahead.
Matt:Thank you. I'll be tweeting and posting and and, yeah, man. I'll see you I'll see you in the chat. Let's do this again sometime.
Peter:Yeah. Awesome. See you later.
Matt:Alright, man. Talk to you later. Enjoy your meeting. Thanks.