Voice Training and Trans-Fem Voices (with Claire Michelle)

Jess speaks with Claire Michelle, founder of the Seattle Voice Lab, about how to feminize your voice, coaching trans voices, and the unique challenges that trans women face when it comes to speech and voice.

Click here to watch a video of this episode.

• (00:00) - Why This Show Exists
• (00:46) - Introduction to Claire Michelle
• (02:04) - What Voice Training Is
• (04:37) - Common Voice Myths
• (05:52) - Real vs Authentic Voice
• (08:28) - Belonging and Code Switching
• (13:54) - Safety and Privilege
• (17:31) - Cis Voice Insecurities
• (19:49) - Transfeminine Voice
• (23:07) - Passing and Inflection
• (26:19) - Pitch Apps and Obsession
• (27:58) - Same Pitch Different Gender
• (29:57) - Curriculum Monotone Method
• (31:27) - Beating Voice Cringe
• (33:47) - Personal Safety and Voice
• (38:38) - Claire's Voice Journey
• (44:32) - Coming Out
• (47:15) - Into The Weeds
• (49:41) - Future of Voice
• (51:05) - Motivation and Practice
• (52:09) - Closing Thoughts
• (53:43) - Credits

Creators and Guests

Host

Jess Lupini

Host of the Show, and Creative Director of Avo Media

Guest

Claire Michelle

Claire Michelle is the CEO and Director of the Seattle Voice Lab

What is The Words Don't Fit the Picture: Gender vs. Voice?

What happens when your voice no longer matches your gender identity? Join host Jess Lupini as she explores the strange and tangled relationship between gender and voice. Through interviews with linguists, trans people, voice training experts, doctors, surgeons, storytellers, and much more, The Words Don't Fit The Picture will take you on a journey through what we know — and what we've still yet to fully understand — about how our voices and gender identities affect one another.

Why This Show Exists
---

[00:00:00] Speaker: Hey everybody. Jess here. I'm a science communicator, musician, comedian, and filmmaker living in Vancouver on the unseated territory of the Musqueam, Squamish, and Sleight Tooth Nations.

[00:00:11] I decided to make this show because I'm also a trans woman. When I came out, I knew transitioning would be hard, but I, I don't think I quite realized just how complicated the relationship between voice and gender really is. Part of how I process my own thoughts and feelings is by learning as much as I possibly can.

[00:00:29] So I decided to bring you along on the journey with me as I searched for answers to some big questions about how we speak and the way it's tangled up in our identities. If you like moving pictures along with your words, you can find the video version of this episode on YouTube. Let's jump in.

Introduction to Claire Michelle
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[00:00:46] Jess: Hi all. I am Jess Lupini. Uh, and this is the words Don't Fit the picture, uh, podcast where we untangle the complicated relationship between gender and voice. I am so excited about this interview. Um, you have no idea. I'm here today with Claire Michelle, who is the CEO and Director of the Seattle Voice Lab.

[00:01:19] Claire: Hey,

[00:01:19] Jess: um, also just like a musician and singer and entrepreneur. Yeah, yeah. Bit. First of all, can you kind of do a little introduction of Yeah. Who you are and, and why we're talking today?

[00:01:30] Claire: Yeah. So I am Claire Michelle. Um, I started teaching trans voice. Around 2017, after being a lifelong vocalist, and at that point in time, I pretty much started realizing that there was a really deep need for this service.

[00:01:50] Um, and one thing led to another and our wait list exploded. And now I've made it my mission to reduce wait list times for trans voice. People of everywhere across the world. So

What Voice Training Is
---

[00:02:04] Jess: what goes into voice training? Like, what actually is that for people who are like, I don't really know what voice training is.

[00:02:08] What does that actually mean? What, what is this potentially scary sounding thing?

[00:02:12] Claire: Pitch resonance, airflow.

[00:02:15] Jess: Okay.

[00:02:16] Claire: That's what it is. So, no, uh, voice training is a, it's like, so, okay. I'll take you through like a student's journey. Yeah, let's do it. So, uh, a student comes in, the first thing they have to do is they're like, okay, okay.

[00:02:31] I'm here, I'm in, I'm in session. I did it. I'm here. I made the first step. That's always the scariest. So like we get to see this like bubbly person underneath it all that's all excited and nervous. It's really cute. Um, so we get that, we get that person coming in and then, um, and then they. They get an assessment of their voice.

[00:02:48] They start to understand like, you know, the ways that vocal health influences their voice. They learn about practice and then we start with them just a nice gentle, like, and that's the first exercise that we give them. We're just trying to get the body more involved. We're trying to get the air flow moving.

[00:03:06] We're trying to match, um, a relationship between the pitch of the focal cords and the amount of airflow that they're using. Then we talk about resonance in session two. Hey, how are you? How's it going? Oh, it was good. How was your practice? Practice was really good. I got the airflow down. Okay, great. So today we're gonna talk about the nasally voice.

[00:03:25] What's that amount? Okay, cool. So then we talk about resonance and how I'd like to configure things, and we do that again. Lesson three comes in, how is resonance work? How is that Okay, Anna's good. I got it down. And we talk about vocal fold mass, vocal fold mass. How do we soften that kind of nasally sound?

[00:03:42] How do we make that, you know, much more palatable? And then we kind of look at the ways that all of this relates at the end. So then we have this nice soft voice. We start to open it up. We start to trust ourselves. We start to inflect upwards when we speak, and then we start to find who we are underneath it all and settle into something that kind of sounds a little bit like that.

[00:04:05] So that's where it goes. That's so cool. That's

[00:04:07] Jess: what voice training is. What a great, like, little crash course. I love that. So

[00:04:10] Claire: yeah, without going into the weeds here, like this exercise and that exercise and

[00:04:14] Jess: Yeah. Oh my gosh. No, I love that. I, I'm thinking through all of that. Um, when I was, when I was going through it as well, I'm like, oh, yeah, I, I had this.

[00:04:21] Claire: Oh yeah, I remember that. Oh yeah. That section. Well,

[00:04:24] Jess: yeah. And even being so nervous the first time being like, oh, this is, I'm so worried about this. Like, oh, this is so anxiety inducing. Yeah. And then starting to get more comfortable with those pieces.

[00:04:32] Claire: Yeah, exactly.

[00:04:32] Jess: It's really cool. Yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna definitely dive into a lot about how that works and why that's important.

Common Voice Myths
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[00:04:37] Jess: But first I kind of wanted to just talk about voice on like a really high level, off the top. Are there any myths that you find most people have about voice or that you hear a lot that like drive you absolutely nuts?

[00:04:48] Claire: Yes. Uh, there's a couple actually. Okay, great. So, you know, I often hear that like, I'll never get my voice to sound feminine or I'll never get my voice to sound masculine.

[00:04:57] Um, and that's just like. Not true. Like it's not true at all. Like the industry at this point in time is like so focused on like, um, like what it is that we're trying to achieve, like a feminine voice. What makes a feminine voice feminine? What makes a masculine voice masculine? And so people get lost in the weeds over like.

[00:05:16] Well, how do I do this work? Like what is actually required of me to make it sound that way? Right? Um, and so that's what a lot of people aren't actually doing right now. And so we really try to help people recognize that like there are exercises that we can use and there's techniques that we can use that help.

[00:05:32] You know, guide you. Um, so

[00:05:34] Jess: I love that. Yeah. It's also so funny. Yeah. I have a, I have a section in my questions. Cool. That's literally called into the weeds. Yeah. We'll get there. So we're going to go into the weeds. Oh yeah. It's gonna happen.

[00:05:44] Claire: I'm like, trying to remember like, okay, where do we, where do we stop at?

[00:05:47] Jess: Yeah, yeah. We're gonna start broad and then kind of, kind of narrow, narrow into the wild stuff. Um, okay.

Real vs Authentic Voice
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[00:05:52] Jess: So I wanna talk for a moment about the idea of, or the concept of a real voice. Yeah. Because this is something that I see people talk about a lot. Yeah. Um, and it's not just trans people I see. Talk about this.

[00:06:04] I see cis people talk all the time about the idea of, oh, that's someone's real voice or That's a fake voice.

[00:06:09] Claire: Yeah.

[00:06:09] Jess: Even in the context of other cis people. Yeah. Um, some examples that come to mind is there was that video of Ariana Grande recently Oh

[00:06:15] Claire: yeah.

[00:06:15] Jess: Where she was being interviewed and her voice kind of dropped down from the higher, sort of more traditionally feminate sounding voice into, into what sounded.

[00:06:23] To me mm-hmm. To feel like a little bit more of a comfortable range for her.

[00:06:27] Claire: Oh, absolutely.

[00:06:27] Ariana Grande (Clip): That's how I felt. I was like, what has happened? Um, yeah, I dunno. Um, but yeah, I've been writing a lot and maybe there's some more.

[00:06:36] Jess: All of the comments were like, oh, this is her real voice. That's her real voice shining through Paris.

[00:06:40] Hilton's another example. And then we've seen Elizabeth Holmes as somebody who went in the opposite direction, who was like. Clearly artificially lowering her voice.

[00:06:49] Claire: Oh yeah. That was silly.

[00:06:50] Jess: That was

[00:06:50] Claire: silly. That whole situation.

[00:06:52] Jess: Absolutely. Well,

[00:06:53] Elizabeth Holmes (Old Clip): we talked to our lab team and they said, okay, you can do the draw.

[00:06:58] And so they did this, what would've been a finger stick on this little nub on. His arm and

[00:07:04] Elizabeth Holmes (New Clip): reinvented the traditional laboratory infrastructure.

[00:07:08] Jess: I, I, I, I wanted to ask you like, is there a such thing as a real voice and what's going on in these cases that's causing people to identify those voices as real or fake?

[00:07:17] Claire: I don't like the word real.

[00:07:18] Jess: Okay, great.

[00:07:19] Claire: I don't like the word real. I like the word authentic. Yeah. Uh, the authentic voice. Because like, you know, I think like even with Paris Hilton, like. Her voice shifting to that higher position is still her authentic voice. Mm-hmm. It's still her real voice, but it's in a certain context.

[00:07:35] Right? It's what's required of her for whatever reason, whether that's sexism, capitalism, or something in between. Like it's, it's an authentic voice that she needed at that time. Um, and now as modern feminism has started to take shape and grab, you know, hold on a little bit more, she's able to drop it without necessarily risking, say for example, her career.

[00:07:56] Or the way that people perceive her. So it's a, it's an entirely different like way. It's not a real voice. Everything that you do is your real voice, but it depends on the context of the ways in which you're actually speaking that lends itself to authenticity.

[00:08:11] Jess: Right. Okay. That's super interesting. So that also makes me wonder, like, do you think.

[00:08:16] But those are obviously pretty glaring examples because there those are people who are in the public eye and who have pretty dramatic shifts between some of the different voices they use, both of which may be authentic. Mm-hmm. In different circumstances for them.

Belonging and Code Switching
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[00:08:28] Jess: Do you think that's something that average, the average person might be doing more than they realize?

[00:08:32] Claire: Oh, a hundred percent.

[00:08:33] Jess: What does that look like?

[00:08:34] Claire: Yeah, a hundred percent. So like, say for example, uh, you know, you're out with your boys and you're like partying, you know, you're partying at the, at the, at the frat party. Uh, you know that like, that voice is gonna be much more like, yo, what's up? You know, it's like really low.

[00:08:50] It's like hanging out with the boy. 'cause that's the, that's the authentic self in that moment. But, you know, like, think about that same man going to talk to their professor during office hours. You know, it's all of a sudden like a. Hello, Mr. So-and-so, you know, I've been really struggling with this thing and I'm having a hard time with it, and like neither of those are the real voice, but they're just.

[00:09:10] Situations that, you know, we're called upon for, um, you know, different societal reasons. Um, and it's, yeah, so like it's an authentic voice. It's your voice and the ways in which we communicate, um, depend on the context. So,

[00:09:26] Jess: interesting. So I, I guess in all of those examples, those, um. Changes that people are making to the way that they're speaking are to help them in a social situation or just in whatever circumstance they're in.

[00:09:36] Claire: Yeah, totally. It's it voices. Voices a direct correlation to the, like the feeling of belonging. Right. Right. And so if we, you know, if we're at this frat party, for example, I guess we're using a frat party. Exactly. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. I love, I love frat boys. Oh my God. All right, so if we're

[00:09:54] at, I won't, I won't ask.

[00:09:54] Follow question

[00:09:55] on that. Uh, so, um, I just like to make fun of him. Uh, so, so if we're at this frat party and we're having a good time, you know, it's like, you know, we don't wanna sound like, you know, this like nerdy, stereotypical like, dude, right? Like, because that doesn't. This doesn't fulfill our sense of belonging.

[00:10:14] And so I feel like as trans people, we're always sort of like on the outside looking in, in a lot of these social situations. So voice training allows you to find that sense of belonging within these contextual communities, so, right.

[00:10:28] Jess: Mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah, that makes so much sense. I was going through like, what are people who I've seen who, um, or who are celebrities or people in the public eye that I've seen who I, I I've watched change their voice in different circumstances.

[00:10:39] And the other example that I came up with, which I couldn't quite figure out how to slot in with everything else is Gilbert Godfrey.

[00:10:44] Claire: Oh, yeah.

[00:10:44] Jess: Right. Who ha who as a standup comedian has this like over the top, like, I'm Gilbert Godfrey, right. Said yes. Okay. Incredibly shrill, ridiculous voice. Yes. I'm sure I'm clipping for the audio there, but it's wild.

[00:10:57] And it just sort of had me thinking about how like the, the. The two examples I could think of that were women. Yeah. Were both, um, adjusting their voice to fit in in certain ways, or at least that's what it seems like from the outside. Yeah.

[00:11:09] Claire: All in security there.

[00:11:10] Jess: Yeah. And the male example is like, okay, I'm at that point on the, you know, hierarchy of privilege.

[00:11:15] Pyramid

[00:11:15] note

[00:11:16] Claire: though, because like, you know, at some point in time, Gilbert Godfried probably had a show. Yeah. Right. That like, he was maybe a little frustrated that day and he was like yelling and screaming as jokes and he got a rise out of it.

[00:11:26] Right.

[00:11:27] And he was like, oh well. Maybe I should lean into that a little bit.

[00:11:30] Right. And so that kind of became a shtick. And so maybe there's some underlying insecurity there that like, if he goes and relaxes down into something that feels more authentic for, say, for example, talking to his family or whatever, you know, uh, that it, that, that, you know, that whole, um, persona falls away from under him and he is not a comedian otherwise.

[00:11:49] Jess: Oh my God, that's so funny. But given that we're talking about ways that changing your voice can, can. Affect your ability to move through different social situations. Do you ever find yourself using a more masculine sounding voice to navigate the world?

[00:12:02] Claire: Yeah, absolutely. Um, so I live in a super queer neighborhood and oftentimes when I go for that 9:00 AM cup of coffee, 'cause I ran outta coffee grounds in the morning.

[00:12:13] You know, I like kind of hang out with the baristas. I have this like, lower voice here. Um, but I don't necessarily like use a masculine voice per se, but I'm comfortable like stretching my range a little bit. Mm-hmm. Also speaking to other trans people too, like my voice is an entirely different voice when I talk to other trans people.

[00:12:32] Um, oftentimes if I find myself talking to more trans men, like I will definitely lower that voice because like there's something, I don't know, there's just something like more. Comfortable for me. I just, I don't know why, but I just do it like, it just feels comfortable. Same thing with trans women. Like I don't feel like I need to like strive for this idea of passing, you know?

[00:12:53] Yes. I'm just like, with my friends, I'm like hanging out, like we're at the beach and I'm like, yo, what's up? You know, like. Whatever. It's completely like just having a, you know, having a good time. So,

[00:13:02] Jess: um, it is so funny. That makes me think, um, there, there was a time I, I, I had posted, um, on one of the trans discords that I'm in, that I had some shoes that I was getting rid of.

[00:13:13] 'cause I, they didn't really fit me that well. And this, um, trans woman came over to pick them up. Mm-hmm. And when we initially started talking, she was like. Using a, like a, a sort of a higher placed voice. And, and then as soon as I started talking and I, you know, I sound like what I sound like, no, um, she, I could just see this like relaxation in her eyes that she just like dropped, dropped down into a lower register and it was like, there was such like a exhalation relaxation and it was.

[00:13:37] Such a nice interaction. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I think, I think, um, there's so many of those little moments as a trans person moving through the world where you're like, who? Yeah. Oh, okay. It's safe. I can stop doing whatever I'm doing to make sure I don't get in trouble.

[00:13:50] Claire: Yeah, exactly. Yep.

[00:13:52] Jess: Oh my God,

[00:13:52] Claire: I feel that.

[00:13:53] Jess: Yeah. Um, okay.

Safety and Privilege
---

[00:13:54] Jess: So I'm one of the COVID eggs as well. Yay. Yeah. Congrats. Um, 2020, like beginning of 2021, I guess, or end of 2020. Mm-hmm. It just felt like there were so many. People who had similar stories to me of just being like, okay, well I'm stuck in my apartment. Yep. And, uh, I guess I have to acknowledge some of the thoughts that I've been avoiding for a long time.

[00:14:12] Right,

[00:14:12] Claire: right.

[00:14:13] Jess: So

[00:14:13] Claire: yeah, there's like, the judgment isn't quite as intensive when you're stuck in an apartment for two years.

[00:14:17] Jess: Yeah. Completely.

[00:14:18] Claire: Right.

[00:14:19] Jess: And so, um, I'm also one of the people who, like I did the Seattle Voice Lab program Oh, cool. At the beginning.

[00:14:24] Claire: Nice.

[00:14:24] Jess: Um, I, I mean, I don't know when that would've been.

[00:14:26] Probably in late 2021. Mm-hmm. But, uh, it, it's funny 'cause I feel like I'm a terrible. Advertisement for it, because I'm still using basically the same voice that I've always used. I

[00:14:35] Claire: mean, like, yeah. I mean, do you have the ability to use a feminine voice when you need to?

[00:14:40] Jess: Yes and no. It's something that like I, I avoid doing most of the time 'cause I get.

[00:14:46] Uncomfortable doing it. I feel like, um, I have a hard time doing it in a way that feels like authentic to me. Yeah. But at the same time, when I'm talking to somebody at the bank on the phone Right. And they're looking at a sheet that says female. Mm-hmm. And I don't wanna have an awkward conversation, I absolutely crank it up.

[00:15:05] Mm-hmm. Um, which is just an interesting thing to like, think about everyone doing that all the time. Mm-hmm.

[00:15:12] Claire: You know, like the thing is, is it like. There are people who wanna make it permanent. There are people who want surgeries. And there are people who just wanna turn it on and off because like, for one reason or another, maybe they like the deeper voice.

[00:15:23] Like, I know I have a lot of attachment towards like my chest voice that I never wanna get rid of. Um, and other times it's, you know, just like, well, I don't really need to, like, I, like, we see this in people who have a lot of privilege actually. Mm-hmm. Um, those who are in, um. Higher positions of privilege actually have a harder time, uh, changing their voice permanently.

[00:15:43] That's a pattern that we've recognized at Seattle Voice Lab. So that's

[00:15:46] Jess: so interesting.

[00:15:46] Claire: Mm-hmm. Because they've surrounded themselves with people who you know, like they trust and that accept them. Yeah. And so like voice training isn't as important in their lives as somebody who. Might be, you know, struggling to make ends meet and find that having a feminine voice or masculine voice will ensure that they are able to get a leg up with some of their career prospects or something of the sort.

[00:16:10] Jess: That's so interesting. I, I, yeah. I can really see how privilege plays into it in a huge way. Like for me, I, I, it's, it's a lot of, it's a lot of work. It's a lot of time, it's a lot of difficult practice to change your voice. Mm-hmm. And for me, I have really not found myself in too many situations where it's been.

[00:16:26] Uh, where it's been really critical for me to do that, to be able to move through a, a space mm-hmm. You know, at all. Little uncomfortably. Yeah. Um, I definitely feel it in washroom and change rooms.

[00:16:36] Claire: Yeah. That's a big one. Yeah. Safety. Yeah. Yeah. Safety's a huge factor. Yeah. So, you know, I mean, I definitely put it on, uh, a little, you know, and I'm like out in the mountains and I'm like, Hey, like, how's it going?

[00:16:47] You know? I definitely have a much higher feminine voice, uh, because I. Don't want the, the creatures of the forest to attack me. So, you know, um, so yeah, it's definitely a thing that even I consider, and most people say that my voice passes flawlessly. Uh, and I still feel insecure about it when I go into places that I'm a little on edge.

[00:17:10] Jess: Wow. That's, I would not like hearing your voice. I would never think, oh, you're still,

[00:17:16] Claire: I still, I still put it on, I still go a little more on the feminine side, like, yeah.

[00:17:20] Interesting.

[00:17:21] Jess: Oh God,

[00:17:21] Claire: I know, I know.

[00:17:22] Jess: It's gonna be so nice one day where like, that just doesn't have to be a thing any of us about anywhere.

[00:17:27] I'm so excited.

[00:17:28] Claire: Great. We're working on it. It's getting easier every,

[00:17:30] Jess: we're gonna get there.

Cis Voice Insecurities
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[00:17:31] Jess: I think trans people who think about their voice a lot mm-hmm. Can sometimes get in their own head and feel like we're the only ones who think about voice as much as we do. Mm-hmm. I find, I think there are a lot of cis people who also have issues with their voice, things they don't like about them.

[00:17:44] Mm-hmm. I found this, I was watching Song Exploder on Netflix. Mm-hmm. And there's an amazing episode with Michael Stite from REM. Okay. And, uh, they're playing, they're, he's talking through how he made losing my religion. Mm-hmm. And they're about to play the, the host says, can I play your, your vocals? And you can just see him like.

[00:18:03] Panic and he goes raw.

[00:18:05] Claire: Yeah.

[00:18:07] Jess: Is there a reverb on it? And you just panic in his eyes. Yeah. And uh, and they play it back and he's, he can't even open his eyes. Yeah. He's cringing so hard. Listening to his own voice, and obviously some of that might be, oh, he doesn't like the take or he finds it shaky. Or there's something about it looking back, but how similar or different do you think those kinds of things are?

[00:18:25] To what trans people go through.

[00:18:26] Claire: Yeah. Well, like the example that you provide is something that we would call a performance voice, right? And so a performance voice doesn't necessarily need to be good. It needs to fit the performance. So in that case, right, it might not be a good vocal take on its own, but when you listen to it in context, oh man, it's like perfect.

[00:18:45] Yeah. Right. So that's a performance voice. Um, but yeah, cisgender people definitely think about their voice all the time. Um, it's just, it's. It's less of a concern for them to change it. Uh, so we see this in like public speaking, for example, right? There's a whole subsection, um, of, uh, so I have um, I have a colleague of mine who works with Microsoft, uh, and Amazon and goes into these, you know, big places and helps.

[00:19:12] Career women find their power voice, that's what she calls it. Right? Um, and it's a lot about like, you know, looking in the ways of which you converse and have like, and you build yourself up and you get that voice a little bit bigger and you know, you can project it out a little bit more and be heard in those spaces.

[00:19:29] So it's a lot of like ways of coaching you to be again, or find that sense of belonging in these communities. So it is, it's just not quite as, um. Intrusive in their lives. Right. Uh, so, and the, the weight of getting it right is much, much less as well.

Transfeminine Voice
---

[00:19:49] Jess: So the, I feel like there's just, we could talk high level about stuff for forever, but I want to zoom in a little bit.

[00:19:55] Okay. And specifically I wanna zoom in on voice feminization. Our voices are often the primary tool that we use to connect with other people. Mm-hmm. So, uh, voice is just like such a big factor in all of those challenges. Can you talk a little bit about what. Like, I guess defines a transfeminine voice, what that even means.

[00:20:10] Claire: Yeah. So like, okay. I wanna give you two examples here.

[00:20:14] Jess: Amazing.

[00:20:15] Claire: Because like. When somebody comes to us and finds like a lesson, right? They are essentially looking for a passing voice, right? Everything is like, you know, how do I make it super feminine? How do I make it bright? I've heard about this thing called resonance.

[00:20:30] What's that like? You know, how do I do that? Um, oh, I think we're using full now. I, I don't, the terms change so often, like trying to keep up with them all. But, um, yeah, it's, it's one of those things where, um. We have like the passing voice, right? And the reality is, is that the passing voice is different for every single person.

[00:20:53] What passing is is largely determined, uh, within your communities, within your privilege, within your upbringing, uh, within your job. You know, a lawyer is going to have a very different idea of what a passing voice is than say, if. Fishermen up in Alaska, right? They're so varied in that approach. And so then the next step is to actually figure out, well, what does that mean to you?

[00:21:16] What does that actually mean? And so we really take a look at like, okay, how do we develop the skills of the voice to give you the control that you need? And then when you find that control, then you're able to identify what it is that you like or dislike about your voice and settle into something that works.

[00:21:32] For you in that environment that you need. And so then we have a different conversation about like, well, what does voice training actually mean to you? How do you use your voice with your friends? Do you want to use your voice with your friends? Right. Um, you know, is it, is it called on you upon work? Like we oftentimes see, um, trans women who come in who are have, who have sales jobs.

[00:21:55] Right? Right. And like we, you know. Passing is very important to them, especially when their whole life, they've been, you know, in, in restaurants talking to, you know, finance people and all of a sudden now they have to play, you know, a more subservient role usually is how they see it. Um, and, and, you know, their voice is more feminine and like how do they, how do they navigate that internalized.

[00:22:18] You know, sexism, misogyny, how do they move through that space with their new voice? And then they find that maybe they don't wanna be that role. And so it's this whole thing about like, well, actually, what is it that, who are you? Who are you? And what does your voice represent when you actually learn how to control it and you actually learn how to use it, right?

[00:22:35] And so that's really what like. What we're doing is trying to find the authentic self underneath everything. There's a lot of shame that we have to overcome too. Lots of shame. Shame is like the core of what we do, right? It's like how do we actually let that go? Let the fear of embarrassment and all these other things that go on with it, how do we let that go?

[00:22:56] Um, and that that's where. That's where the voice therapist job begins. And so that's a different, that's a different conversation. Oh my gosh.

[00:23:05] Jess: Okay. There's so much in there that I wanna unpack.

Passing and Inflection
---

[00:23:07] Jess: I think first of all, I, I know this is like quite a sort of back to basics question, but can you talk a little bit about what passing means to people, especially in the context of voice?

[00:23:19] Claire: Yeah. So when we think about passing, right, passing means in transfeminine uh, voices, it's a higher. Brighter. Feminine stereo. Feminine, stereotypical voice, right? We have to have that perfect feminine voice, but like, I don't know. I don't, I don't really like this voice. This isn't me, so I, what is passing to me?

[00:23:43] I don't know. This is definitely not passing. This feels fake. This voice feels fake. This is not passing

[00:23:49] Jess: right,

[00:23:49] Claire: but to the person watching that, it might be a passing voice. But this is my voice,

[00:23:56] Jess: right?

[00:23:56] Claire: This is my voice. This is the voice that I feel comfortable using. Does it pass? I don't know. I don't care.

[00:24:02] Depends on, it's my voice.

[00:24:03] Jess: The person hearing it, I guess.

[00:24:04] Claire: Right? Right. Exactly. In the context. In the context, right. Totally. So, um, yeah. Once you start to realize like, you know what your voice is, it's passing isn't important anymore, right? It's just. You know, finding who you are underneath it all and fully being able to express yourself.

[00:24:21] Jess: I love that.

[00:24:22] Claire: Yeah.

[00:24:22] Jess: What are some of the other factors that can go into how the perceived gender of a voice that go beyond those big three?

[00:24:30] Claire: Once you learn how to control your voice, there is a lot of inflection that's involved. But here's the thing about inflection.

[00:24:40] Okay?

[00:24:40] Um, the thing is, is that like. Trans men already have a lot of feminine or a lot of masculine inflection in their voice, and the same goes for trans women, right?

[00:24:52] We already carry all of these mannerisms, but as we're growing up and as we're maturing, there are societal pressures for us to. Not be that way. And so we repress a lot of these, you know, these higher bubbly voices per se, or maybe more like subdued de mere kind of voices. And as we start to learn how to control our voice, it's not that we're learning a new way to talk, but rather we're.

[00:25:18] Undoing a lot of that internalized shame that we've accumulated over the years, and so we're just allowing that side of us out again because that person did exist at a certain point in your life, right? But someone somewhere said, don't act that way. Don't be that way. And you. Did that, that's what you do at that age.

[00:25:39] Jess: Interesting. So when you're talking about inflection, you're talking about like pitch variability,

[00:25:43] Claire: kind of the bounciness of the voice. Right? Right. Um, we have an exercise that we use sometimes, which is like a cheerleader, which is, can be really useful. And when we go up, we can talk in these kind of ways and then when we pull it back, we can start to find.

[00:25:59] The voice and the bounce and the jumps and the changes, and then we can start to relax into that. You can hear that this still exists, and then we start to find who we are underneath it all again. Right? Right. Find our profession, find our, our hobbies, whatever it is, and we start to find where that voice actually is for ourselves.

[00:26:18] Jess: I love that.

Pitch Apps and Obsession
---

[00:26:19] Jess: So I wanna talk about pitch for a second because pitch is something that I see people obsessing over when they're looking at trying to feminize their voices. Um, there's apps that people download and obsessively look at to try and see is my pitch in a female sounding range in a male sounding range?

[00:26:33] Um, can you speak of it to that in like how important pitches?

[00:26:36] Claire: I love this question, right? Uh, because this question is really like. Uh, voice pitch analyzers mm-hmm. Are really, really useful for those who are brand spanking new to voice training. Right. Um, or just trying to like on the fly, gather that pitch and they're like, where is that note?

[00:26:54] Okay. I think it's like right there. Yeah. That's about right. Where it falters is where we start to get into that. Like, I need, I need this app. I need this app to like practice my voice training. Ah. Because what can occur is that, you know, say for example, we have a really dark, low chest voice.

[00:27:09] Well, we take that voice, we bring that pitch up, and we try to find that voice here, and we're like, okay, that's the feminine range.

[00:27:18] That's that. I got it. I got it down. And then they listen to the recording and they're like, oh, that doesn't work.

[00:27:23] Why is that working? It says feminine on the app. Why doesn't it sound feminine? So it can be really detrimental to like mental health as well during that process. Um, but it's really, really good for people who are just learning pitch for the first time and learning how to access that.

[00:27:36] Right. But once you start, you know, once you are able to kind of get into that place, you need to put the app down. You need to start putting the app down. You can use it for recording. Cool. You know, but don't, it's, it's a, don't rely on your eyes to know what your voice is doing. Rely on your ears. Like that's, that's what you gotta be doing.

[00:27:55] The app is only gonna help so much. So

[00:27:57] Jess: I love that.

[00:27:57] Claire: Yeah.

Same Pitch Different Gender
---

[00:27:58] Jess: Um, I don't wanna put you on the spot too much, but could you demonstrate how um, the same pitch can sound more masculine or feminine depending on your airflow and your ance?

[00:28:06] Claire: Yeah. So I'll go a little lower on pitch 'cause it'll make more sense. Sure.

[00:28:09] But like, so if we take a note like this and we do, I don't know, that's what I'll do. So we can go.

[00:28:19] Uh, hello, my name is Claire from the Seattle Voice Lab.

[00:28:24] Uh, hello. My name is Claire from the Seattle Voice Lab. Uh, hello. My name is Claire from the Seattle Voice Lab. Hi. Hello, my name is Claire from the Seattle Voice Lab.

[00:28:35] And then if I add a little

[00:28:36] more nasal resonance to it,

[00:28:38] the

[00:28:38] pitch

[00:28:39] is starting to lift up because I'm starting to get to the limits of my resonance based on there. But you can hear like how the larynx lifts up. The airflow has to change, right? Um, and you can do this across the board, right? It doesn't have to be, I think that was like a g something or other.

[00:28:52] Like it doesn't have to be around that space. It can be, you know, higher, it can be lower, it can be. In the falsetto if you want it to be. The falsettos. Really hard though. I don't want no idea.

[00:29:02] Jess: That is so, it's so incredible to hear you do that. Like it's, it's unbelievable how transformative it is across that.

[00:29:07] Yeah. Staying at the same note like holy cow. Um, I decided this summer that I wanted to learn how to scuba dive. Okay. 'cause I was like, nice, this seems like it would be a fun thing to try and do. This

[00:29:15] Claire: is a scary sport.

[00:29:16] Jess: Oh my God. It's terrifying. And, and at the very first time I wet in the water. Yep. And you're breathing through a regular, you're breathing underwater for the first time.

[00:29:22] It's like, oh, I'm really focusing on breathing. Exactly. And it's hard and I'm having to not breathe out my nose and all of, all of these things, you're focusing so hard on all these basics. Yeah. And then the next time you go in, it's a little easier the next time you go in at some point. And you know, I haven't been doing it for that long.

[00:29:36] Already, it's starting to feel much more organic and feel like. I'm kind of just doing my thing and I'm not thinking at all about those things that at first were like taking up 100% of my CPU.

[00:29:48] Claire: That's right.

[00:29:48] Jess: There's another just, I, I can't not use nerd references. That's right.

[00:29:52] Claire: I love it.

[00:29:53] Jess: So, uh, does that seem like it has any parallels to voice training?

[00:29:56] Claire: Yes.

[00:29:56] Jess: Yeah,

[00:29:56] Claire: absolutely.

Curriculum Monotone Method
---

[00:29:57] Claire: So, uh, the thing is, is like, you know, that. When we acquire a new skill, there's this mo point in time where it becomes like really stiff and like you don't really know how to do it. And so our curriculum like literally leans into that because what we do for six lessons is that we hold the voice in one very specific position.

[00:30:18] Everything is very monotone, which stabilizes the vocal fold, uh, length, right? So that's one less variable we have to think about. And then as we. Hold that voice in place. We can manipulate resonance on top of it. We can add airflow underneath it. And the more variables that we remove, right? The more that we can critically look at these elements of the voice itself.

[00:30:41] But then once you start learning how to actually manipulate that, you've already learned to configure that vocal fold length, that pitch in place. And so we can start to release some of that pressure. We can start to. Lean into it and now we know how to control our vocal fold mass, right? Everything is very, very light and gentle.

[00:31:00] So we relax into it and we essentially, you know, let the river take us down the road and we, you know, kind of have this nice, have this nice, you know, comfortable approach. As we start to find that nice, gentle voice, the pitch can start to move. We can start to put a little lower, but everything is already trained.

[00:31:18] Muscle memory has taken shape, right? And we've been able to find a nice. Comfortable place where we don't have to think about our voice anymore. So yeah. That's really nice.

[00:31:25] Jess: And then it can just happen. Yeah. Without you having to worry about it.

Beating Voice Cringe
---

[00:31:27] Jess: Can you talk a little bit about that shame or that cringe that people describe?

[00:31:32] Claire: Yes. Um, uh, the hard answer is get over it because like, ultimately like this, this cringe of something that's experienced by everyone. Mm-hmm. Um, and you know, I mean absolutely. You've done this work on camera and well, you've heard your voice in editing. There's certain elements of you just listening to your voice for years and years and years and years, and you're just like, yeah, that's my voice.

[00:31:56] That's the way it is. Like it doesn't matter if it's more feminine, it doesn't matter if it's more masculine. Like it's your voice. Yeah. Like that's what you hear. Um, and so familiarity is the best way for you to get rid of that. Cringe. Right, right. That cringe is really what it is. Um, when I was doing my vlogs way back when, yeah, when I was doing those, like I was so used to hearing my voice.

[00:32:19] Like there were times when I was like, oh, I shouldn't have used that voice, but I was also on the same place. Like, well, that's my voice. Like that's what it does. Yeah. So familiarity is really how to overcome that feeling.

[00:32:29] Jess: Interesting. Mm-hmm. Okay. So it that if, if, if somebody is struggling with using a newer voice to them and it feels like cringe or uncomfortable, that just

[00:32:38] Claire: do it all the time.

[00:32:39] Jess: Do it until it's as familiar as anything else.

[00:32:41] Claire: Exactly. Just do it all the time. Don't, don't worry about voice training at that time either. Just like, literally, like right. Record random things into your microphone. Like I tell my students, like, you know, when you're making eggs in the morning, put your phone on record and be like, I'm making eggs.

[00:32:54] This is a great time. I'm putting toast here. And then just listen to that as you're eating it, right? Like literally just record yourself as often as you can. Yeah, don't voice train. Just record yourself. And then eventually it will naturally progress into. Training.

[00:33:06] Jess: I love that. It's so funny too. 'cause like that's exactly what I did for best and it was at around the time I was, I was doing a lot of like laser hair removal on my face.

[00:33:13] Yep. And so I would record myself, I'd turn on the voice memos app in the car as I was driving to and from the laser tech. Yeah. And I'd record myself driving there. I'd record myself driving back and I'd force myself to listen to them. And I'd be like, I hate everything about this entire trip.

[00:33:27] Claire: Yep. I know what you mean.

[00:33:27] Jess: Yeah. But something about packing the, the physical pain of the laser in with the emotional pain of the voice training. It was like, you know what, I'll just compress all the pain together and then I can get home and watch the tv. Yeah.

[00:33:38] Claire: And it works. It's like, and then you were like, oh, I can now you can do it much more.

[00:33:41] Uh, constructively. It helped a lot more critically. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:33:43] Jess: Yeah.

[00:33:44] Claire: Huge.

[00:33:44] Jess: Um, just listening to yourself. Oh my god.

[00:33:46] Claire: Yeah. Big.

[00:33:47] Jess: Okay.

Personal Safety and Voice
---

[00:33:47] Jess: So when I did the SVL course, I had, Nathan was my instructor. Yep. Was amazing, Nathan. Um, and there's uh, a moment in that class that has really stuck with me.

[00:33:56] Claire: Oh, cool.

[00:33:56] Jess: Ever since.

[00:33:57] Okay. Um, there's a lot of moments I should say, but this is, this is one that's like a bit darker that's really stuck with me. Okay. Which is, at that time I was still presenting pretty masculine to a lot of the world. Um, I, I hadn't, I don't even think I'd come out publicly yet. Mm-hmm. And I knew I was going down a few rungs on the privilege ladder, but there's a, there's the difference between the moment where you're like, oh, transitioning is gonna mean I'm gonna lose access to some things.

[00:34:20] Things are gonna get harder. And then actually really feeling that,

[00:34:22] Claire: yeah.

[00:34:24] Jess: Nathan talked about how a common request was being able to shout or scream for help. Yeah. In a voice that sounded feminine.

[00:34:32] Elizabeth Holmes: Yeah.

[00:34:32] Jess: And wouldn't result in you getting clocked or identified as trans. Yeah. And that really stuck with me.

[00:34:39] 'cause at the time it was, it was just chilling and I was like, oh my God, is this what I'm in for? And. It really wasn't until probably a year later where I found myself getting followed slowly and catcalled by a bunch of guys in a car. Mm-hmm. Just going for a walk at night, which is something I used to do all the time.

[00:34:53] Me too. That I was like, alright, I remember this now.

[00:34:57] Claire: Yeah.

[00:34:57] Jess: So can, can you speak a little bit about how that became something that maybe found a place in the curriculum and Yeah. And the importance of it.

[00:35:05] Claire: Yeah, so safety is one of the reasons that people seek out voice training. Um, and. Safety is very different depending on culture.

[00:35:16] Privilege has a lot to do with this as well, so I work with people all over the world. Um, I have, I'll tell you some of their situations because I had a student in Ecuador who wanted to transition at home, and that was it. That was all they could do. They wanted to be themselves at home because once they left the house, there was no risk.

[00:35:41] Of, of passing it was, you either pass or you are attacked. Like they were so afraid of being trans in their city, it was not a good place for them. But at home, you know, there were feminine, they were free, but they had to repress so much. And so that passing, that safety element is very different down in Ecuador than it is, is here up in Vancouver, Seattle, right?

[00:36:04] Yeah. Um, you know, like I had a, I had a student in Turkey. And in Turkey. Right. Um, they don't really recognize gender.

[00:36:13] Yeah.

[00:36:14] And so this person for years had to live in men's dorms. They were college aids. They had to live in men's dorms. And so their entire thing was, I want to be as feminine as possible in all these ways because I wanna screw the government.

[00:36:29] I wanna, I wanna make sure that they, um. You know, they know like what, what that, it makes not only me uncomfortable, but all the people that I have to be around. Uncomfortable as well. Right, but

[00:36:41] Jess: like malicious compliance kind of

[00:36:42] Claire: thing. Yeah, exactly. So that's entirely different concept of safety as well. Oh

[00:36:45] Jess: my God,

[00:36:46] Claire: that's

[00:36:46] Jess: so brave.

[00:36:47] Claire: Right. They were so right. I had a student in, uh, in, in Argentina. Who knew that the only way that they could walk to school safely was going one route as opposed to the other route. The other route was through campus. Nice and safe. Right? But again, it's like safety is, is, is so. It's so integral to voice training.

[00:37:04] I was telling you earlier, I, when I go out to the mountains, you know, in these like backwater little like towns mm-hmm. My voice goes up, my feminine mannerisms go up. Like I'm a very different person than I am in Seattle, where I'm like, yo, what's up? Like, I eat doing, you know, like. I'm not, I'm not gay out there.

[00:37:25] Right. I'm afraid of how I will be perceived. Mm-hmm. Right. I'm afraid of the person that leaves the bar when I leave the bar and if they follow me, right. Like, these are things that we think about all the time. Um, and we, I mean, I'm very privileged to live in Seattle where I don't have to really worry about much of this stuff.

[00:37:44] But you know, like even in the states. Like, I had a student in Minnesota, right, who had a very different idea of passing. That was a very deep concept, a conversation about like, well, like how do you have, how do you hold your factory job? You know, as a woman on the line transitioning with all these men, burly men around you, you know, like you are un under undertaking a, a big transformation in your life.

[00:38:12] Not only like physically and personally, but. Mentally as well. Like how much of that gender do you push against?

[00:38:19] Jess: Right.

[00:38:20] Claire: You know, so

[00:38:21] Jess: that's such an interesting thing. Like I, I, I really do think, I take it for granted that I get to kind of be as feminine or as masculine as I want to be. Yeah. And it feel, feels comfortable to me in any situation.

[00:38:30] Claire: Totally.

[00:38:30] Jess: But yeah,

[00:38:31] Claire: that's not true for more than half of the trans population.

[00:38:33] Jess: Yeah.

[00:38:34] Claire: Like we are very privileged to live in these cities. Very privileged.

[00:38:37] Jess: My gosh.

Claire's Voice Journey
---

[00:38:38] Jess: I would love to talk a little bit about your own personal relationship with your voice, if that's okay. When you were younger, what was your relationship like with your voice and how did it change as you got older?

[00:38:45] Claire: Yeah, so. I have been a lifelong vocalist. Um, my mom tells me the story that when I was like seven years old, I walked into the church choir and told everyone that they're singing wrong. That was my first foyer into like voice work. Um, my mom quickly put me into lessons and like started doing that whole thing.

[00:39:05] Um, and for years I sang soprano, I sang soprano. And as I started to, um, as I started to have testosterone on my vocal chords, um, I fell out of. I fell out of soprano. I started singing tenor, and then that became baritone and that became base one. So I had a really tricky experience because I started to find, um, myself turning away from music and like classical voice is what I was studying because I wasn't feeling affirmed with any of the material that was given to me.

[00:39:39] And it, it never felt like me. I had a gorgeous, like low, you know, voice. Everyone said I should have been like a, a radio DJ kind of thing. And I just, yeah, it wasn't me. I felt more connected to, you know, 12-year-old me soprano.

[00:39:54] Yeah.

[00:39:55] Uh, singing those really high notes in the church choirs than I did, you know, anywhere in my high school experiences, my college experiences, it felt very disassociative.

[00:40:04] I think back to when I was in this choir called the Ambassadors and it was. I was singing bass one, and I like, there were so many times where I just like, like completely checked out because something I, I didn't know it was dysphoria at the time, but it was dysphoria. Like I would hit a note or something and I'd listen to the Sopranos, like have this beautiful melodic line.

[00:40:26] And then I would completely get pulled out of the music and I was like, ah, I wish I could sing like that. I wish I could be over there on that side. And these were just like everyday thoughts, right? And so it wasn't until I got to college that I had this vocal jazz professor. His name was Dr. Gum. And uh, and he encouraged us to make chicken noises.

[00:40:48] And he encouraged us to make, you know, like the sounds of flutes with our voices and like, you know, actually like challenge what we see as our voice. Because up until this point in time, it was all about blending with the choir. It was all about opening the voice up, diction, you know, very prop, putman, proper.

[00:41:05] Everything was very much that space. And so Dr. Gum completely was like. No, let's go the opposite direction and go, right, like all these things, like, how big of a mo can you make, like, you know, like oboes and, and it just challenged me on such a deep and profound level that I think that in and of itself helped me realize that my voice can be something other than what I was being pigeonholed to do.

[00:41:32] Jess: Huh. Wow.

[00:41:34] Claire: Yeah,

[00:41:34] Jess: that it, it's so funny that you talk about your vocal jazz professor. 'cause I had a Dr. F phrase,

[00:41:40] Claire: Dr. F phrase, who

[00:41:40] Jess: also got us to do chicken noises

[00:41:42] Claire: to sit some part of vocal jazz.

[00:41:45] Jess: I was having make I, I fully went catatonic for a second, just going back and Oh my God,

[00:41:50] Claire: wait a minute.

[00:41:50] Jess: I was like, I remember this.

[00:41:51] But so much of that rings true for me as well, like what you're talking about in terms of like, I, God, I remember like being, I, I think I would've been in grade eight and I remember singing the like solo for lock Loman. Yeah. Super high opening solo and like that's the last time I remember listening to a recording of myself sing and going like, I like where my voice was sitting.

[00:42:11] Right? Yeah, exactly. And that's wild. That's a long time ago.

[00:42:14] Claire: It is. I know.

[00:42:14] Jess: Yeah. Strange. Oh, that, that's so interesting. Yeah. It's fun. Yeah. Um, so when did you first start trying to, um, change your, your own voice?

[00:42:24] Claire: It was 20. 13 or 2012 maybe. I don't know. That time was such a blur, you know?

[00:42:35] Jess: Yeah, completely.

[00:42:35] Claire: Yeah.

[00:42:36] It's like, yeah. 'cause that was around the time when I was having vocal jazz stuff. So yeah, I was, I was my junior year of college and I recognized that I needed change after spending six months in my, uh, in my bedroom, not leaving, you know, my roommate knocked on my door a couple times. I was wondering if I was still alive.

[00:42:55] Uh, that sort of, that sort of time in my life. So I, uh, yeah, it was around that time that I started learning about voice training and what it was, and then. After dropping out of college, I went to, uh, a therapist and like you with your electrolysis earlier. Um, it was the same for me. I would drive down, back and forth to my therapist going dah, dah, dah, and I would start voice training and it was for me, like little 32nd recordings on my phone.

[00:43:22] I would just, you know, yell into the microphone doing different things, this and that. I would read billboards as I was driving down the road. Um, and like that was. That was 20, that was spring of 2014. So I was, that was when I was like, I'm going to get this and I'm going to do it this year. Um, and then it wasn't until about like maybe two years later that I felt like I was actually like, comfortable with the ways I was using my voice.

[00:43:48] And then another two years after I felt like I was done with voice training, like I was completely done. Wow. Um, there was a point in time, it was probably like 2016 to give you a timeframe here Sure. That I was hanging out with a group of girls. And I remember feeling really insecure about my laugh, and so I pulled out my phone, I hit the record button, I put my phone in the back and I just waited.

[00:44:09] I waited until like, you know, I started thinking more about the conversation and I found a moment to laugh and I laughed and I laughed along at the group and I remember frantically getting into my car and going. How did that sound? God wasn't my voice. Okay. Like, did I do it all right? And it was, and that was like the last moment that I was like, I, I've got it.

[00:44:27] I think I've got it. So, and then I started helping others.

[00:44:31] Jess: That's amazing.

Coming Out
---

[00:44:32] Jess: And how did you find people in your life responded to you changing your voice?

[00:44:35] Claire: Hmm. Uh, I got kicked out as I started to, as I started to actually change not only my voice, but my physical appearance that kind of went hand in hand.

[00:44:46] Um, I. I had a falling out with my dad and my stepmom, and in the span of three days, I went from having, uh, a no brainer but steady job, you know, at a consignment store, uh, to packing up my car and moving 3000 miles across the country. Um, I went to my mom. That same day. And I, I came out to her that day as well and I said to her like, Hey, I need to tell you something.

[00:45:15] And she goes, you're gay. She with a big smile on her face like she knew this whole time. And I go, no, it's a little bit more than that. So, uh, so yeah, she, she took it well, but she wasn't in a place to take me in either. We didn't have a good relationship by that time. And so I, uh, I went to, I just. Started driving and for some reason Seattle was where I picked, I stopped in Chicago.

[00:45:38] I told my best friend at the time, Matt, and he was like, there's my couch. Stay as long as you need. And so I was like there from Chicago for a couple days, drove to Seattle. Um, I found a stranger's couch to crash on.

[00:45:52] Jess: Geez,

[00:45:53] Claire: I didn't know the guy, but he, there's a website called couch surfing.org. It saved, it literally saved my life.

[00:45:59] Um. Eric, Eric Smiley, uh, like took me in, no questions asked, helped me get a place to live. The food bank was, uh, useful for a while. Uh, yeah, and then one job, you know, I got a job at h and m, two jobs at Goodwill. Had a third job. That was a really tough time in my life since start. One thing led to another and here I am today.

[00:46:24] Jess: Holy cow. Yeah. Put a

[00:46:25] story.

[00:46:25] Claire: It was not a good transition.

[00:46:26] Jess: Yeah,

[00:46:27] Claire: I had a really difficult time.

[00:46:28] Jess: That's. Brutal.

[00:46:30] Claire: Yeah.

[00:46:30] Jess: Yeah.

[00:46:30] Claire: So I'm pretty happy where I'm at right now.

[00:46:32] Jess: Yeah. Holy cow. You're, you're in an amazing place now. Yeah. At least with every day I've gonna, this

[00:46:36] Claire: little apartment, I got a little kitty cat.

[00:46:39] Jess: We, we'll have to talk about your cat afterwards and do the cat picture exchange, because I

[00:46:43] Claire: do,

[00:46:43] Jess: yeah, I have, we have two of them.

[00:46:46] Claire: I'm really happy that I was able to get a cat. It kind of like, it kind of put me in a, a different perspective of like, oh, I can actually not only afford a cat, but I'm comfortable enough to actually. Have I kept, so that was like,

[00:46:58] Jess: take care of this other creature.

[00:46:59] Claire: So that was a really monumental moment in my life.

[00:47:02] Um, now I have a little baby.

[00:47:04] Jess: Oh, good for you. I love that. Okay, well let's maybe move away from the heavy stuff for a moment, you

[00:47:10] Claire: know?

[00:47:11] Jess: Um, but I appreciate you sharing all that with me. Yeah,

[00:47:13] Claire: you're welcome.

[00:47:14] Jess: Um.

Into The Weeds
---

[00:47:15] Jess: So we're, we're now at the last section I have on here, which is titled Into the Weeds, as I said later.

[00:47:20] So these are all, these are, these questions are a little bit all over the place, but they're kind of just, I

[00:47:24] Claire: love it.

[00:47:24] Jess: Odd miscellaneous things I was thinking about that we're

[00:47:26] Claire: gonna trump through the fields together.

[00:47:27] Jess: Absolutely. Into the weeds, uh, through the muck, into the bog. Um, okay.

[00:47:34] Claire: Sorry,

[00:47:35] Jess: was the word bog

[00:47:36] Claire: fog.

[00:47:37] Like

[00:47:38] Jess: I've gotten a lot of mileage outta the word bog lately. It's good. It's been, it's like, it's a great word.

[00:47:42] I

[00:47:43] Jess: love it. It's a good reaction. You're welcome to take it. You're welcome to use the word bog with people. I'm totally

[00:47:46] Claire: using bog.

[00:47:47] Jess: They're, they're gonna love it. It's gonna change your life. I'm wondering, as, as it is becoming more publicly acceptable to be out as a trans person.

[00:47:55] Mm-hmm. Um, and to talk about things like voice training without losing your job. Um, do you think that's, how do you think that's affecting. O other trans people who are earlier in their transition.

[00:48:07] Claire: Um, I think it's like, I think it's helping change the conversation around what voice is and can be, because like, for example, SLPs use the phrase, um.

[00:48:20] Gender affirming voice.

[00:48:22] Jess: Right.

[00:48:23] Claire: And I really like that phrase because what it's implying is that as long as you feel affirmed with your voice, it should be incongruence with your gender. Right. And that idea of like, well, like as we start to come out, maybe, I mean, well it is hopefully trans people will become much more accepted and voice will hold less of a bearing on these, you know, on these.

[00:48:45] Really like deep situations with career, for example, or safety, for example. Um, there's a, I can't, I can't remember the place, but there was, um, there was a moment where a gay person, uh, saw that a southern state rejected the. Pride, progress flag in place for the traditional rainbow flag, which is great because you know, the south, the southern states love tradition.

[00:49:12] It's

[00:49:12] unbelievable.

[00:49:13] Right. But like that's progress. Yeah. That is progress. Because up until this point. Pride month. June was like, no, no, we don't want to do that. But now they're like saying it's tradition. We put the rainbow flag up every, every June, but

[00:49:25] Jess: the old one.

[00:49:26] Claire: But the old one,

[00:49:26] Jess: yeah, the old, not

[00:49:27] Claire: the old.

[00:49:27] We do it

[00:49:27] Jess: the old ways. The traditional rainbow flag. Traditional.

[00:49:31] Claire: Right. We can't, we can't move forward yet. But my hope is, is that that's what will happen with the trans community as well. And like, yeah. So there's a lot of, there's a lot of that that's happening. Uh,

Future of Voice
---

[00:49:41] Jess: so that kind of seg segues into a, a bit of a bigger picture question mm-hmm.

[00:49:45] Which is what do you see as the future of voices for trans people? Like what, what's your trans voice Utopia look like.

[00:49:53] Claire: Trans voice Utopia is, um, I. Is ensuring that trans voice is, the methods of trans voice are taught at the collegiate level. That's what we're trying to do. And so that like, we really need to bring the conversation into academia, at least in the speech pathology side of things, because it's not really being taught to the degree that it needs to be taught.

[00:50:16] It's they're skirting around the subject right there. Poking at it and they're saying, that's good enough. We'll, we'll back off. That's affirming enough. Um, and so we really need to like look deeper at that in that way. And so we should be seeing a larger group of, you know, certified trans voice. Teachers, and that's what Seattle Voice Lab's trying to do.

[00:50:35] We're trying to certify people. We're trying to teach them how to actually work and work with trans voices. We wanna reduce wait list times across the country. So it's like we wanna make this much more accessible so that way you don't have to seek out someone who is online, who you may have scrolled across on something, but rather you can go to your local SLP and they feel like, oh yeah, let me just go outta this like thing that I've learned and this thing and just.

[00:50:58] Teach you exactly how it needs to be done.

[00:51:00] Jess: Right.

[00:51:00] Claire: So that's what we're trying to do. Okay. So that's, that's the, that's the goal.

[00:51:03] Jess: Cool. Vision for the future.

[00:51:04] Claire: Oh yeah.

Motivation and Practice
---

[00:51:05] Jess: Do you have any advice for people who are struggling right now to work on training their voice and are feeling unmotivated, stuck, frustrated?

[00:51:13] Yeah. Experiencing that cringe. Yeah.

[00:51:15] Claire: So if you're watching this right now, what I want you to do is I want you to take your phone out and I want you to open your recording app, and I want you to press the button on your recording app. And I want you to just say the words, I can do this. I can voice drain, stop, listen back, and then do it again.

[00:51:32] Take a deep breath. 'cause you're starting to feel a little bit of fear, starting to feel a little bit shame. And then do it again. And then do it again. Okay. Okay. My anxiety's getting the best of me. All right. Okay. Look at the colors. Oh, there's reds over there. There's blues over there. Okay. I'm gonna do it again.

[00:51:48] Okay. I got this. I can voice join. I know how to do this. Alright, now I got it. Okay, good. Alright. Do it again. Do it again. Do it again. Do it again. Do it again. Do it again. I love that. Practice. Practice, practice, practice. But yeah, take a slow.

[00:52:04] Jess: That's great.

[00:52:04] Claire: Take a slow, don't worry about training yet. You can get there.

[00:52:07] Just worry about. Getting the voice

Closing Thoughts
---

[00:52:09] Jess: out. Cool. Um, is there anything else that you wanna talk about today that you think is important?

[00:52:17] Claire: I do actually. Great. Um, we need more voice coaches in the black community. A lot more voice coaches in the black community. We, I have, in my time in invoice training, I have only worked with one black individual.

[00:52:33] That is it. I've been doing this for 10 years.

[00:52:35] Jess: Wow.

[00:52:36] Claire: We have sought voice coaches. We, in our, in our job listings, we say like, if you are a person of color, please apply. We do not get any applicants who are people of color. We need to be elevating voices in smaller communities because currently, as far as I know, there are none.

[00:52:55] And if you are one, please. Please come out. Please let us, let us know. 'cause we and the community will elevate your voices immensely. 'cause currently, I don't know of anyone doing this work in, um, in a black community right now, so.

[00:53:12] Jess: Wow. Well I hope somebody sees that and

[00:53:15] Claire: Yeah.

[00:53:15] Jess: Reaches out. 'cause yeah,

[00:53:17] Claire: it's really important.

[00:53:18] Really important.

[00:53:20] Jess: Thanks so much, Claire. Thanks. You've been fantastic. Yeah, it was great. Um, where can people find you online if they wanna learn about you or

[00:53:25] your

[00:53:25] Claire: work? Yeah, Seattle voice lab.com. Okay. That's where I'm at. So, and we have a bunch of links there to find all sorts of other stuff there as well.

[00:53:32] Resources, exercises, communities, discord, communities. Okay. Seattle voice live.com.

[00:53:37] Jess: Okay. Fantastic.

[00:53:38] Claire: Thanks.

[00:53:38] Jess: Thanks so much.

[00:53:39] Claire: Yeah,

[00:53:40] Jess: yeah.

[00:53:40] Claire: This is great.

[00:53:40] We'll see you next episode.

Credits
---

[00:53:43] Jess: The words don't fit the picture is created by Jess Lupini. Special thanks to this week's amazing guest, Dr. Catherine Campbell Kibbler. This episode is edited by Koby Michaels and produced by Jess Lupini and Lucas Kavanagh. Production funding was provided through Telus Storyhive. Special thanks to Nicole Doucette and Alexa Landon.

[00:54:07] See you next time.