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Conversations from the Hype Network; Business innovation, technology, and current events from a faith-filled perspective.
Ps Vance: All right, so, let's go.
Hype Pod episode 16.
We just got Pastor Adam and myself
because our co hosts are ruined.
We just keep losing co hosts.
Man, we go through
Ps Adam: them.
They can't handle the heat.
Nah, he can handle it.
He's just on vacation.
So he's Where is he?
He's in
Ps Vance: Japan.
Yeah.
He's in Japan.
So crazy.
He just
Ps Adam: texted us the other day.
You know, I always think that
when people go to Japan, it's
such a strange vacation spot.
I'm sure Japan's awesome.
I want to go myself, but I
feel like I want to go when
I've got some business to do.
Sure.
It's not really like, Hey, I want
to just go and relax in Japan.
Cause my, and maybe I'm just,
my perspective is off, but I
feel like Japan is like more
intense than, than where I live.
And so do I want to go somewhere
more intense for a vacation?
I think people go for food.
Ps Vance: Right.
Yeah.
Sushi, sashimi.
Yeah.
You know, Jiro sushi of dreams.
Netflix kind of put it on the map.
The craftsmanship of the
Japanese people, culture.
Ps Adam: Okay.
Now I want to go.
All right.
Change my mind.
Well done.
Ps Vance: It's funny because, uh,
you know, tech people in general,
I feel like this is happening.
Travel is going crazy.
I don't even think that some
people are even stopping working.
They're just,
Ps Adam: they're just, they're working.
Exactly.
They're traveling and working.
The term for it is gangbusters.
It's going gangbusters.
It's going for it because
it's actually not just travel.
I think one of the highest trending
areas right now is luxury travel.
Right.
Luxury travel.
Like, you know, the trips that are pretty
much an amazing, boujee experience.
And, uh, you know, you pay for
the premium quality, premium
tickets, all that kind of stuff.
So it tells me that there's
still money out there to burn.
Ps Vance: There's money out there.
There is this desire for novelty.
I feel like okay.
There's this desire for adventure
Exclusivity people are still
living based on the gram.
Yeah, I feel like yeah, do you see that?
Continuing let's talk about
innovation really quick.
We know a friend that invested actually
into this space luxury travel Is this
is this like no sign of stopping, you
Ps Adam: know, it's He's what
I think we're going to define.
What's a trend?
And is there a trend back to what would
be our normal state, you know what I
mean, that we'd be looking at, what's
the normal state of living, what's the
normal state of, of, I think sometimes
in our mind we think the normal state is
saving, buying, um, establishing, building
wealth to hand on to the next generation.
But is the new normal state a move
away from that to not even think
generationally, but just to experience
life in your lifetime and leave the
next generation to their own devices?
Right.
I don't, I don't know if there is
a, if there is going to be a swing
back because it doesn't look like...
It really doesn't look like this whole
talk of inflation, um, or recession has
really started to affect a lot of what we
see in the millennials or Gen Z generation
Ps Vance: in their spending.
But what is happening is that
they're just getting more and
more into credit card debt.
Oh, for sure.
That's the problem.
We've never been as indebted as
a country in credit card debt.
Yeah.
So I think.
It's going to come to roost at some point.
We will see the recession.
Actually, I was looking at the stats
the other day from just an economist
point of view that whenever there has
been an inverted relationship between
short term yields and long term yields.
So, for example, you can make more money
investing into three month treasuries.
Right now we're in 10 year
treasuries and that never happens.
Right.
I mean, that happens occasionally,
but every time it does happen
where it's inverted like
that, it precedes a recession.
Absolutely.
And we, we just haven't seen the
Ps Adam: recession yet.
Absolutely.
I think you got to look at it, right?
I mean, we, we go back to 2020, 2021.
I mean, everyone wanted to get in angel
investing into an early stage startup
because of what the yield was going to be.
But right now the market is
so, so, uh, I would say dry.
That you really got to consider is,
you know, investing in an index fund
going to yield more as a result.
And so I think, yeah.
Spending is up.
I don't think, uh, in the
right areas, definitely.
I think people consuming, maybe this
is just a blow on still from the, the
mentality of the, the fragility of the
lockdown season, you know, people who
were saving and then all of a sudden
you're locked down and the threat
of missing out on life experiences.
And maybe now people are
just making up for lost time.
Ps Vance: Still one principle
that I do think that people
should consider is to be.
Uh, greedy when people are
playing it safe, but be safe when
people are playing it greedy.
Right.
So what I mean by that is if people are
being so wasteful in this season and
spending any last, you know, reserves
that they have on things like luxury
and, and things that are fleeting, this
is the time to actually invest, right?
This is actually the time to invest.
especially as prices
continue to go down and down.
And so if you have dry powder
and you see real estate markets
in the Bay Area depressed, those
are the times to buy for sure.
Not to be scared to operate.
Um, with
Ps Adam: boldness, right?
Yeah, this is, this is essentially,
I think what makes a key
innovator is being disruptive.
So when everyone is zigging you, Zach,
when, when there is a pathway that
everyone seems to be trading, you should
be going, how do I go in the opposite
direction or how do I actually optimize?
I think that's what we see in a
lot of wealth creation, right?
We, we see, uh, key figures
over history who have.
Accelerated is they literally
bet against the market.
Exactly.
They shorted it.
They optioned it.
They, they saw something that, you
know, was an opportunity and, uh,
you know, that's what, that's where
you, you know, that's when you invest
when the market's down, you got to be
Ps Vance: contrarian, right.
And it's kind of scary because
if you're contrarian wrong, then
you're looking like an idiot.
Yeah.
But if you're contrarian,
right, then you're rich.
Yeah.
But.
But if it's consensus, you
can't actually be rich because
you're just average, right?
For example, I'll tell you right now,
your riches, at least at this point in
time right now is probably not going
to be in crypto, not probably not
going to be in Bitcoin because that's
already been found out, like there's
300 million Bitcoin holders, right?
And you know, it fluctuates
and things like that.
And maybe you can find a little
bit of gains here and there
if you luckily timed it right.
But generally when an industry
is quote unquote found out.
Then it's already saturated.
It's already saturated, right?
And that's what we saw with It actually
got over saturated with NFTs and
things like that and people actually
lost money not made money Yeah, right.
And so you actually want to go into
the places where There's not a lot of
people where, where there, there isn't,
um, a strong conviction, but because
you have a secret insight, because you
have an expertise in a certain area,
you can actually draw conviction.
And if it's also contrary.
To what everybody else thinks about it.
That's even better.
So
Ps Adam: one of the key things
that you just said then is you
need to have an expertise because
otherwise I think you miss it.
If you're just trying
to be contrarian, right?
If you're just trying to think,
Oh, everyone's going this way.
Let me go that way.
I think that's a surefire way to
actually miss the boat altogether.
But to have an expertise, do, do you
think that there is a, uh, undervalued
element of expertise today in, in maybe
the generation that, uh, Approaching life
from just live at large right now, give
it on credit, but not actually spending
time to develop an expertise in an
Ps Vance: area.
Yeah.
I mean, look, if you talk to any
ultra successful person, CEO, founder,
entrepreneur, at the end of the day,
one of the consistent things that
they'll tell you is it takes time.
Sure.
Sure.
Right.
It takes time.
And what's working against this
generation specifically is there's
so many things that you could have
access to that didn't take time.
And so just that culture doesn't breed
to, you know, we're talking about Japan
at the beginning of this pod, a Jiro
Sushi of Dreams like character that
had the patience to master his craft
over decades and becomes the best at
the world at rolling a sushi, right?
And I'm not saying, okay,
your pursuit should just be.
something as specific as that.
All I'm saying is that greatness takes
time to, to develop an expertise.
So you've been building local
church for at this point, decades.
Uh, and there are things that, you
know, in your gut, uh, not even just
based on market data, Barna research,
you know, all that type of stuff.
You don't need to do demographic
analysis and things like that.
To know if a church plant is going
to succeed or not, because you've
developed a palette, you've developed
an expertise, a taste for this
craft that It had to take time.
Ps Adam: It takes time.
But here's my question.
Let's wind it back a little bit Do you
have to be an expert before you begin
or is the expertise developed as you go?
So, you know, obviously when you started
overflow, right and and from where where
it began as a I would say it began as
a core conviction Like we need to we
need to unlock generosity And because
generosity was definitely at that time
It there was generous people, but they
were limited to one little pathway.
It was pretty much Cash and credit,
but there were so many other avenues to
unlock generosity, but you didn't know all
the ins and outs of building a company.
Now you've become what I would
consider somewhat of an, of
an expert in the industry.
How, what's the level of competency
or expertise do you need to begin?
And what can be grown along the way?
Ps Vance: Yeah.
So I think it's actually
a little bit of both.
I do think a secret advantage
because there's this whole idea
that Peter Thiel talks about that
competition is for losers, right?
That's why you need to be super
different and super distinct.
Kind of what we're talking about.
If everybody is zigging, you're, you're
a zag, you're a clear differentiated
product offering founder person.
And I was learning
about this thing called.
Um, the Medici effect, um, you
know, Medici, a financer back in
the French, uh, Renaissance, um,
brought a bunch of different people
of different backgrounds together and
the collision, the intersectionality.
Of those people coming together
actually created net new innovation.
Yes.
And so I do think expertise is
important, but I do think that bringing
in different backgrounds into a space
with a fresh take is actually the
thing that creates new innovation.
Right.
And so actually.
Somebody that is too deep in an area
that's expected to innovate for an
area, it might be harder for them.
Right.
Because they don't see
it from a fresh lens.
So, you know, specifically to Overflow,
I think for the past 10 years,
us building Vive Church has given
me, I wouldn't say necessarily the
highest expertise, but experience.
Within the local church
enough to be dangerous, right?
To understand and have an intuition of
what, you know, CFOs and executive pastors
all across the nation at churches might be
looking for in a solution and a product.
What I didn't have an expertise
in at all was FinTech.
Right.
Ps Adam: Which is hilarious.
Yeah, because you've currently built
one of the best fintech companies like
even outside of the church space just
in the realm of fintech Overflow is
up there easily in the top 10 Fintech
companies right now in the world.
Yeah in terms of growth and
Ps Vance: trajectory for sure exactly
and and so what I think That I found
out in this hindsight 2020, but, you
know, there's this whole movement
now that the experts are coining.
Oh, the feature is actually
verticalized fintech, right?
It's actually going to be around brands
that know how to build communities
in those communities are going
to be essentially banks, correct?
Um, and I stumbled upon that.
What is now coined a thing just by
virtue of trying to create a specific
financial services solution for the church
space, which is one of the most powerful
community based entities on the planet.
And so that's what I'm saying is
actually having, I think, enough
skills and expertise and experience
to be able to get things done.
I think there's a baseline to that,
but it's actually so powerful.
That you bring a background from
something else into another space
that you have zero expertise.
That's really good.
That's where magic can happen.
Ps Adam: So, so what we're saying is
there is essentially some things you
can build by bringing others into it.
Exactly.
So the technical, the engineering, all
those kinds of things, uh, they were
brought in, but your experience was.
The community space.
Yes.
Knowing the need.
Yes.
Seeing the market.
Exactly.
Um, I like that.
I like that because you're an expert on
the market and you develop a product.
That's right.
Ps Vance: Yeah.
Expert on the market, expert on
the pain, expert on the people that
are behind the decisions that are
made, uh, for these organizations.
And so, yeah, I think.
I think that's really important.
How would you force function that?
Because, you know, the thing is the, the,
the danger sometimes with, with church.
And actually I feel like that the thing
that's high that the church has always
tried to battle is traditionalism.
Yeah.
You know?
And so, VIVE probably considered one of
the more innovative churches in the world.
What intentional decisions did you
need to make along the way, and
what do you need to even do today?
Right.
To make sure that it stays on the
Ps Adam: cutting edge.
So I think you've got to wind back, in my
opinion, let's wind back to at what point
can you force function something, right?
I think you need the bare basics
of, am I passionate about this area?
Yeah.
Then I can force function in that.
I can't force myself to be passionate
about something because what we know
is that building a company is the most
difficult thing you're ever going to do.
Right.
Okay.
So you
Ps Vance: can, well, the founder
of Nvidia, they asked him, Hey,
if you could do this again.
Would you do it?
He said, no, it's too hard.
Right,
Ps Adam: right.
Yeah.
And I've been asked that question too.
Would, would you, you know, knowing
what you know about building the
church, would you do it all over again?
And, you know, I've always paused because
I would never want to say no to the Lord
Jesus Christ, but at the end of the day.
I think the ignorance of not knowing
we jumped in so bullishly, but
if you knew how hard it was going
to be, would you be so, I guess,
ignorantly blissful in the process?
So I think sometimes in starting a
company, you really only have a few cracks
at starting a few like transformative
companies over your life because it
requires the energy of your youth.
Yes.
It almost requires the ignorance,
which is kind of conflicting to the
conversation about being an expert, and
I think you have to be an expert at the
pain, an expert at the problem, and have
a willingness and an energy to go, I'm
going to, I'm just going to run at this
for the next five to 10 years, and you
know, can you do that maybe when you're
in your forties or in your fifties?
Uh, I think that's why we see founders,
the prime founder ages in their thirties.
Yeah.
Because, in your thirties, you're,
as we always, you know, highlighted,
that your twenties, they're
your years for making mistakes.
You're, you know, you're trying stuff,
you're learning stuff, you're, you're
coming out of college, maybe you're
trying a few different industries,
and you're kind of really zeroing
in on what you are trying to do.
I think you're at an advantage
if you can figure that out.
earlier in your twenties.
But hey, it's not too late.
You're 29, 28, 29.
You're still going, man, I'm
going to make a pivot now.
I would suggest make the pivot now.
Do it before your thirties because in
your thirties, you want to really lock in.
You want to find your, your, your kind
of right, your niche, your, your zone.
You want to start earning, start earning.
Yeah.
Building some wealth, getting
some, something behind you, uh,
forming those relationships.
And so your 30s, your 20s are your
years for making mistakes, your
30s are your years for making it.
Yeah.
Make a name for yourself.
Good.
Make a, a run at something.
Really hit your 30s and make some moves.
So that in your 40s, you can make it for
others because you're gonna set up your
kids now Yeah, you're thinking about
what are my kids gonna be doing true?
Am I now building stability?
Yeah, so that this thing is
around for longer and how am I
unlocking other people's dreams?
And honestly in my 30s, I was
looking at establishing vive church.
Yep now in my 40s I'm, I'm
unlocking campus pastors and
I'm, I'm trying to help them win
Ps Vance: and help them.
So I've, I've seen this transition in
real time and you actually declared
it, uh, that this is going to be
your decade of making pathways.
Yes.
Right.
For others.
And it was so inspirational.
I'm still in my thirties.
I, you know.
Uh, a step behind you right
now, but I'm learning from you.
What, what are you learning?
Cause you're early on in
that journey right now.
And I've seen that transition happen.
Um, what are you learning in real
time about making pathways for others?
I think
Ps Adam: it's making pathways for people.
And it's really what comes
around the people, who are the
people that I'm investing in.
Because I'm, I'm not just making
pathways for anybody, I'm making
pathways for specific people.
Interesting.
Because if the pathways that I'm making
aren't just blank pathways for anybody to
walk on, because it's actually about, I'm,
I'm helping that person walk the pathway.
Wow.
So God's put people in my world that
my job is to identify within them
what's the problem with their walking.
Interesting.
More than the path that
they're treading on.
And if I can help them adjust the way
they walk and the way they carry and the
way they do things, it doesn't matter
if there's A clear pathway or, you know,
a rocky pathway, uh, uphill pathway,
they'll walk it if they know how to walk.
If they know how to walk out the,
the virtues, the characters, all
the values, all that kind of stuff.
I think my old perspective was even in the
way that we've planted churches, right?
We've looked at planting churches and we
really used to emphasize the city, right?
It was like San Francisco, you know, Rome,
like there was really about that city.
And my conviction now is.
Any city can be planted in any every
city's heart and every seed needs Jesus.
Wow.
The game changer is the person Wow.
It's the leader and their ability to
plan and iterate and change and move
and adapt and be followable, be dynamic.
And I think the city is one thing.
Um, I think there is a bare basic
thing we can identify that really.
works with our style of church and the
style of city, the style of people,
you know, if we try and plan a church
in a city that doesn't have upwardly
mobile people that want to change the
world, vibe just doesn't resonate.
Right.
Some cities are just looking
for a community church that
aren't going to push people.
That's not a vibe.
It ain't a vibe.
We're going to aggravate, irritate,
push you, uh, expect from you.
But in those cities, That, uh, you know,
you find those people, um, and you get
the right leader that's inspirational,
a leader that's somewhat likable,
but somewhat not likable as well.
They need both.
They need both.
You need both edges.
It's two edges of a, of a sword is, uh, I
need to be able to challenge and irritate.
Yeah.
But at the same time inspire and
ignite right and uh, it's a unique
Ps Vance: blend that's unique blend So
you're talking about personalized pathways
for people and you've been honing that
in Um, I would say even in your 30s you
were doing that I mean, I felt like you
definitely did that for kim and I before
us you did it in youth ministry But
you're doing it at another level now.
Um, and i'm sure if I could guess
That even though it's personalized
it all kind of follows a similar arc.
Sure And the relationship, right,
where at some point there is
this kind of divine connection.
Obviously, we believe in
the sovereignty of God.
So there is a point of just divine
connection and kinship and chemistry
and all that type of stuff.
But then starts the journey when
there's that kind of commitment.
Okay.
We're in, we're, we're a
covenant relationship, we're
going to do this life together.
It starts that journey.
Take me through some components of
that arc that you've seen consistent.
Great question.
Through every person because I'm
actually just curious myself.
Ps Adam: Yeah, so it's a great
question because, um, And I
think for us, you're right.
We probably did start a little earlier.
I mean, you got to remember
Kieran, I got married when 21, 22.
So we started having kids earlier.
We got our first home by 23.
So, you know, we definitely got a
little advantage in that aspect.
Um, but.
You know, so it gave us a
different perspective on what
to see in people because we
were looking for what was in us.
Okay, so identifying ourselves in people.
I think that's the step one of the
arc is, if you're looking for that
divine connection, is there something
about that person or that couple that,
man, I've just seen myself in them.
I can see the way they think, I
can see the way they act, because
then you know what to shape.
Right good, but the act goes like this.
It goes quickly from hey I
see something in you to them.
They have to see something in me.
That's worth following Interesting, so it
can't be me pushing them the whole way.
It's got to be me Igniting something in
them and now saying follow me Paul said
it so follow me follow Christ So there was
something in Paul where he called people
to the journey But then he just took off.
He's like, keep up, follow,
I'm going on this journey.
And, uh, I can't, I can't be
successful as a leader if I'm
leading from behind pushing somebody.
I've got to break through and say,
follow me, get in my slipstream.
So I think there's
something about tucking.
You, you spoke about this one time.
I remember you talking about, uh,
when you were riding, uh, bikes, you
know, maybe when you write the books
and you'll get in the slipstream and
what, yeah, and what it means to get
in behind, you know, and just that.
Drafting that was the word you used
and I think that's what you're doing
as a leader You're creating a draft.
You're creating a slipstream for people
to lock in and along the way They're
not having to face all of the hurdles.
That was my youth ministry years So
when I was in behind my pastor drafting
behind him, he let me build a ministry.
So we built this epic youth ministry.
And I mean, in there we were preaching.
We were praying for
people, casting out demons.
We were doing all the ministry
stuff, but it was almost like we
were drafting behind because we
had the building provided for us.
The electricity was paid
for, the salaries were paid.
We had a budget.
It was cute.
You know, all that kind of stuff.
And.
And yet we were doing real ministry
like a big kid, you know what I mean?
But then it was when we stepped
out and started our own church.
Oh my God.
We felt the full force of
the wind all of a sudden.
Right, right.
Now you got bugs in your face.
Yes, in my teeth, you know, and
rocks in my, you know, so, and, and
literally that's what it felt like.
It felt like we came out from the
draft, but we needed that season
of drafting behind because we,
we didn't know how to do ministry
and deal with the full effects.
But because we learned ministry
in that season, now I can deal
with all the effects of the wind.
And so I think that's the arc.
I love that.
It switches really quickly.
Ps Vance: Yeah, you, you identify.
Yep.
And then, and then, yeah, there
is that point of decision.
Well, well, okay.
You made a choice to, to call
something out on somebody.
Yep.
And not, not everybody then
chooses to respond to follow.
Ps Adam: Right.
Some people do that.
You see it with Elijah and Elisha.
True.
He notices something on Elisha.
And I love the narrative because he
literally goes up to Elijah and he
just throws him his mantle, his coat.
Great.
That's, that's...
And then Elijah goes, Alright, leaves
the oxen, puts the mantle, follows him.
Right.
And it's like, that was just
like a, do you want to catch it?
Follow me.
So good.
And it was like something super
spiritual in that to go, I see you.
I'm calling you now.
Follow me.
Yeah.
Ps Vance: This is so interesting
because that kind of means
you're not like a recruiter.
Ps Adam: No, no, no, exactly.
Ps Vance: Right.
Um, you're.
You're, you're trying to inspire,
you're trying to ignite, but
you're not necessarily trying to
make the package so attractive.
Exactly.
Ps Adam: If anything, you're making
the package very unattractive
because it's not what I'm going to
do for you as your leader and all
the places I'm going to take you and
with me, you're going to go this far.
No, it's like, Hey, you
want, are you down for this?
Are you down for this journey?
Right.
Ps Vance: So people are following you.
Um, obviously you got dozens and
dozens, uh, staff, non staff, um,
your discipling on, on a direct basis.
Um, and so what's your perspective?
You're, I was actually talking to this.
person that leads this
organization called Leading Second.
Um, he's the second chair for
Kevin Gerald up in Champion Center.
Right.
And so he has this language about
like first chair, second chair,
you know, all that type of stuff.
Um, and so we're just having a
conversation, but I was thinking this,
where you are a first chair leader in, and
you, you, you always also have a pastor.
Yep.
There's people like Pastor Juergen
in your life who you're following.
Yep.
Um, so we're always
following somebody, but.
Um, you're, you're a first chair leader
at Vive and a lot of things that,
that you do, what are you looking
for in people that you're discipling?
Because I get the sneaky suspicion
that you're not necessarily, you're
looking for disciples, but you're
not necessarily looking for mini
Ps Adam: me's.
Yeah, no, I'm not really, it's
funny because I've never really
used that language, right?
First chair, second chair.
Yeah, yeah, that's why
Ps Vance: I'm like, that's not
our language, but that's kind of
how some people talk about it.
Ps Adam: Yeah, and I don't know
if I've ever looked for somebody.
Oh, I'm looking for second
chair people, right?
I'm not, look, I'm, if anything, talk
about this, this is what, if anything,
I'm looking for first chair people.
Love it.
I don't look for someone who's like
just good enough or not going to
have a vision, you know, and not,
I'm looking for somebody who's like,
who's give me a wall to run through.
So good.
I think we talked about it recently.
Mm.
If I have to whip somebody,
they're the wrong person.
Right.
But if I have to pull 'em back and we have
to have tough conversations and we have
to go round, that's the person I love.
Mm.
I love, I love shaping, I love putting
a clay on the wheel, spinning that wheel
so crazy that put my hands on a shape.
This thing.
Mm-Hmm.
. It's, it's not, it's not just looking
for someone who's just gonna do for me.
Right.
I want someone who's gonna
literally gonna launch out one day.
Mm-Hmm.
. That's what I think I love about.
Being under under Pastor Jürgen, you know,
and that was a willing decision to say
I see what's on your life I've seen your
proven track record and we just spent
like, you know a week in Italy together.
It was an absolute riot I mean
Pastor Jürgen is just the most he's
hilarious So everything's funny.
Um, but he's so deeply intentional in
conversation and he's so insightful
that you can be laughing one minute and
then the next minute you're just having
like a brain aneurysm with revelation.
It's just unbelievable.
And I just think I love
the way his mind works.
I love the bigness of his thinking.
Uh, you know, just his willingness to
act and make decisions and go for it.
So I think from I'm not even taking
a second chair when I'm with him.
No, I'm still leading first chair, but I'm
essentially drafting off what he's done.
His experience and I'm taking it
into my first chair perspective,
not into a second chair perspective.
Ps Vance: Well, you just
said it there actually.
Insight that just unlocked me
just then was that you said
you submitted yourself to him.
Yes.
Yes He wasn't asking submission from you.
No, and I think that's what leadership
is with a lot of people correct Is there
like hey, I'm first chair and I need
everybody to be submitted to me, right?
But you're talking about a different
leadership paradigm or it's like no.
No, it's if I'm already Making it a
requirement for everybody under my quote
unquote leadership to submit to me.
I've already lost.
Ps Adam: You've already lost
because ultimately there's no
prowess to your leadership.
That's followable.
Wow.
If you have a leadership, uh, I
guess prowess in the fact that
there was something inspirational
about your leadership.
You don't need to ask
people to follow you.
They're going to follow you.
They're gonna, they're gonna
go, Hey, I wanna be under this.
You are gonna find people
jostling and positioning to get
around you and get under you.
And I think that is that natural
leadership that you wanna lead.
If you have to ask people,
Hey, are you loyal?
We've talked about this,
are you gonna be loyal?
Right.
What are, that means you've already lost.
'cause now you're holding
them to a commitment.
Ps Vance: It's kind of the, maybe
a strong word, but kind of the
lazy way I feel like to do it.
Yeah.
Because if you take that, uh, maybe more
domineering tool away from the leader,
let's just say you don't have that tool.
You can't play that tool.
Then you actually have to play
the tool of being a visionary.
You actually have to play
the tool of articulating that
vision in a compelling way.
Yes.
Ps Adam: Well, pulling the loyal
card is like shooting deserters.
Right.
You know, in the, in the army where
deserters would get shot because
it's like, well, we're going to
don't go cause we'll kill you.
So now I'm like, well, do I
actually want to go run into battle?
Pulling the loyalty card is
you're almost at that level.
Are you going to be loyal?
Are you going to be loyal?
You know?
And it's like, well, what if you shifted
your leadership up rather than asking
them to shift their perspective up?
What if you shifted something in your
dynamics and the way you reinvent?
Maybe the fact that you're nervous
people are going to leave you
means that there's something
stale about your leadership, or...
Ps Vance: Totally.
Well, this is why I'm going to make a hard
left really quick, or maybe a hard right,
actually, uh, the direction I'm going.
But this is actually why I, I appreciate
the frequency and the tone of a VEC.
Ps Adam: Okay, that was a
hard left, a hard right.
There's a hard right.
Ps Vance: Well, because here's the
thing, like, so I'm, you know, we're
conservatives, uh, and the problem I think
a lot of times, if we just go political
really quick, is that People keep talking
at each other, and we always end up going
to the lowest common denominator, right?
And we always, uh, go down to, we're
just gonna try to bash, and that's
hard to follow, even if it's right.
Even if you're correct, right?
So, let's get off that for a second,
why I appreciate Vivek's tone, even
though we don't even probably agree.
you know, spirituality wise, religious
wise, all that type of stuff.
The tone that I like from him
is he wants to give a refresh
of vision to the country.
And that's what I think is followable.
It's like, Hey, at the end of
the day, what are the tenants
that this country was founded on?
And if we agree on those things, can we
refresh our vision around it and what.
The country's future can
look like, I love that.
Right.
Ps Adam: You know, I love that you brought
up the fact that, Hey, we're conservative.
And I think that's what I love
about Vivek is common sense.
The common sense that just
comes out of this man is yeah.
If you just, you know, take the spiritual,
you know, beliefs, uh, all that kind of
stuff off the table, he's common sense
on how a country should be run based
on what this country is built off is.
And for me, it's one of the
tenets of being conservative is
there's so much common sense.
Now, I was talking to Vlad
earlier and, and we just kind of
trying to get an understanding
of why people would be liberal.
And one of the liberal perspectives
is just compassion, extreme
compassion is kind of one of the
tenants, but I even disagree with.
What compassion is.
So compassion for me is kindness and the
kindest thing I can be is have common
sense, not just be passively put you
in place you and look after you in your
condition, but to pull you out of that
condition, give you a pathway out, not
keep you in it and coddle you in it.
Right.
And so I think there is.
We can't, I think we're going
to be dangerous, it's dangerous
when we call the, the left or the
liberal perspective compassionate,
I think it's advantageous for you.
Right.
And so common sense means we can't
just keep paying money to keep
people in their condition, we've got
to give a pathway out, and that's
what Vivek is doing, he's creating
pathways, and I just think it's...
A common sense policy
Ps Vance: to lead with
vision is so paramount.
I mean, it's biblical
without vision, right?
People will perish.
And so, you know, we need a renewed
sense of vision in our country.
We are in vision season
also for Vive Church.
Uh, and I'm so excited about that.
It's like literally my favorite season
of the whole year is, is vision season.
Um, I know you're not
going to break any news.
On the pod, but what are
you feeling in your spirit?
Just maybe talk about the
characteristics of what you feel in
these seasons and maybe even take
people through a process because
we talked to a lot of entrepreneurs
on this pod, a lot of innovators,
aspiring entrepreneurs, leaders, VCs.
What's your journey to
even develop a vision?
Cause you, you, you
actually do it every year.
I don't know how many
people do it every year.
But you specifically do it every year.
What does that process look like?
Ps Adam: You know, we I mean the
vision that we have at vive church.
It comes under the 50 year vision letter
So we've got a very large overarching
vision that pretty much means Um, we have
picked every facet of society that we
think the church should be intercepting
in or intersecting And so the 50 year
vision letter, it's a very exhaustive
letter that talks about how we see the
church infiltrating society And then what
we do is I break that up year by year,
pulling different elements out of that
vision that I feel the Holy Spirit is
leading on, based off a prayer retreat.
And then how are we going to articulate
that direction in a bite size chunk?
You know, I mean, we've got
an elephant of a vision.
We're going to start
taking a bite at a time.
And, uh, you know, that's kind of what
we do when breaking down the vision.
Because if people knew that we
had a billion dollar vision, that
would just intimidate everybody.
But can we break it down
to this year being a...
5 million vision or a 10 million vision,
you know, so, so really it makes it more
palatable, even though it means we've
got to stretch our, our bite bigger
than we've, you know, maybe bit before.
Um, and, and then can we digest it?
Right.
So I think the, the vision process
is, it's an interesting one.
I think it's actually more emotional
and spiritual than even, uh, mental.
It's not like I'm just trying
to calculate what to do.
I'm trying to feel where
are we at as a church?
Yeah.
So it's, it's quite a, uh, a sense,
a sensory process of leading up the
months leading up to, to vision.
I'm trying to both have my finger
on the pulse of where we're
at as a society, as a church.
Uh, I'm talking to families.
I'm talking to business leaders.
I'm trying to get a pulse check on
what is the atmosphere of our church.
I'm talking to our campuses,
our campus pastors, leaders.
I'm having so much conversation.
On the other hand, I'm trying to listen
to what's happening in the world.
But while I'm listening to what's in the
world, if I bring this all the way back
to what we started the conversation with.
If the world's zigging,
I'm looking to zag.
Yes.
So, I look at this throughout the Bible.
I look at this with Daniel.
So, Daniel, he was told not to pray.
So, what does he do?
He goes home, opens the
windows, and prays anyway.
You look at this with Esther.
Esther was told, Oh, man, if
you go and bring this before the
king, you could lose your life.
She goes, If I die, she does it anyway.
You look at this in Jesus.
Jesus walks into the temple, and
he sees what the temple's become.
He doesn't just say, Ah, well, I
might as well go along with the
plan and put my own booth up.
No, he, he goes, he makes a whip.
Mmm.
So he takes some time,
he thinks about this.
Premeditated.
And then he comes back
and clears the temple.
Anyway, like there is a, there is this
feeling that you've got to look at what's
the world doing, and I've got to bring it.
Disruptive and different
Ps Vance: approach to it.
So are you, are you kind of, uh,
discerning, you know, okay, my
conversations with people in the
church and, oh man, it kind of sounds
like it's being more influenced
by the world than by kingdom.
Yes.
I need to bring in Zag right now.
Correct.
Ps Adam: Exactly.
So good.
So I'm trying to see, are the
people picking up the narrative?
Are the people intimidated
by what they see?
Are the people, you know, and this, Okay.
What is discernment?
We talked about this even this
morning in a staff meeting.
Someone was, you know, asking a
question about, uh, to, to my wife,
uh, cause she's so discerning.
Very discerning.
And I just had to illuminate,
you know, the gift of discernment
is developed through pain.
The gift of discernment.
Is developed through people lying to
you enough where you start to learn the
language of lies So that when someone's
telling you what they claim to be truthful
But the tone of it is lies because you've
heard a lie enough Right, and you've got
to be willing to go through that process
to become discerning Wow, like I could I
could go to the Bronx or somewhere in New
York and I see a dark alley And I just
go, Hey, I'm going to walk down there.
If I get, if I do that enough and get
mugged, that's how I learn or watch or
hear stories about people getting mugged
in dark alleys, that actually should
give me a discernment to go, maybe I'm
not going to walk down that dark alley.
So that's a developed skill, right?
It's like my dog.
So he got bit on the nose
during the summer, uh, by a
rattlesnake, and nearly died.
And as I was at the, at the vet clinic
paying thousands of dollars to keep
my dog alive, uh, literally the, the,
the guy at the clinic was talking
about how they capture these, uh,
rattlesnakes, and they take their, their
fangs out, and they train their dogs.
with toothless snakes that they
still strike, they still have
the rattle, but they can't bite.
And it trains the dog to hear
that rattle and know to avoid
the snake out in the wild.
Great.
And so I think that that's
how you develop discernment.
Have I experienced the rattle?
Have I experienced the bite?
Therefore, my discernment's dialed in.
Yeah,
Ps Vance: but how do you do it?
Because I feel like we are
kind of in unprecedented time
since we started Vibe Church.
I do feel like the The climate
is not fully something that we've
experienced in the last 12 years, right?
So let's just talk, I mean, there's
so many factors, but let's just
talk about the financial factor.
Uh, before May 2022, it's
literally been up to the right.
Looking like a hockey stick for most
people in this area financially.
Yep.
And for the first time ever,
it's flat or down for many
people or they lost their job.
Yep.
Um, and so it's, it's kind of an
unprecedented thing that we're facing,
um, leading our church through.
Yeah.
And so without experience, the exact
situation, how do you then bring your
leadership and discernment to a situation
where you maybe never seen before?
Ps Adam: Yeah, I mean, it's definitely
new territory and new ground, and
I'm definitely approaching this
vision completely different to how
I've approached him in the past.
The past has most certainly been, okay,
how can I, uh, how can I use the momentum?
Yeah.
Of stock growth.
Yeah.
Of Silicon Valley tech.
Totally.
All these things.
And how can I really draw on that momentum
and just unlock people, uh, to what
they've got to release towards the vision.
Now I really, if I'm going to
be completely honest, I'm more
excited about this vision.
Because this is an opportunity
for an incredible miracle.
So good.
It's not just people giving off the top.
So good.
This means people have
to dig into sacrifice.
So good.
And it's not even based on the
amount that we raise in the capital
campaign, but what's that going
to unlock in people as they start
giving from sacrifice, not surplus.
Mmm.
I think in the last decade, we've
definitely seen people give from surplus.
Mm hmm.
But now we have an opportunity
to give from sacrifice.
It's brilliant.
And We've said this before sacrifice
That is the base element of faith.
Oh yeah.
That unless it costs you something,
are you really stretching in
Ps Vance: faith?
It carries an atmosphere, an aroma.
Yes.
And the Bible describes
it as sweet smelling.
Exactly.
It's acceptable.
It's pleasing.
Exactly.
To God.
These are the things that pleases God.
And so
Ps Adam: now we're sitting.
we're really set up for a miracle.
We're set up for our faith to grow to
whole new heights and whole new levels.
And so I think, you know, I mean,
it's just this weekend, I'm pumped.
I'm running in like so excited.
And, and, and, and can I
give you another secret?
It's actually less pressure on me.
Because There's three stages of a vision.
Okay.
One, it's really pursuing
God for the vision.
What is it that we're presenting
to, in my sitting, to our church?
Two, it's presenting it in
such a way where people grab
it and they commit to it.
The hardest stage is when
the people commit and give,
because now I've got to do it.
Right.
True.
So it goes pressure off me, onto people.
And then it goes back from people onto me.
Ps Vance: Hey, that that's so
Ps Adam: true.
So I realize the easiest point
is this weekend where I put
the pressure on the people.
So
Ps Vance: that's how you,
that's how you can deliver it.
With joy.
And that's why you have so
much fun on these weekends.
I
Ps Adam: love it.
I love it.
It's the greatest privilege.
Vision for me, vision casting is the
greatest privilege of my position
as lead pastor, because I get to
really bring in many ways off the
mountain what I felt God's put in my
spirit for the last several months.
And I get to present it in such a way
that I'm excited and it hopefully is
igniting excitement in the people, but
I'm putting the problem before them.
I'm putting the gap that
I feel that in many ways.
in combination and communication with God
I've created, this is the gap for where
we're going to go, and I get to put it
on people so they can feel the pressure,
and the tension, and the sacrifice.
And then when we hit it,
now I'm like, Oh, man.
Ps Vance: Yeah.
And I, I love what you said earlier
about how it's, it's a spiritual, it's
an emotional, it's a sensory kind of,
uh, discerning activity because I, I
do think that your ability to translate
and contextualize to where people are at
so they can receive it is so important.
I was actually just talking to my
team about this at overflow, you
know, talking to finance and HR and
we're heading into this whole new
season at overflow of expansion and...
Ps Adam: Talk about what just happened.
Yeah,
Ps Vance: so, um, I don't think
I can reveal the partner yet.
We'll do a big press release so we
can reveal the name of the partner.
But we'll just close our Series B.
Close your Series B?
20 million dollar investment,
uh, into Overflow.
And that's just going to lead
to, uh, us being able to do
what we're doing at greater
Ps Adam: levels.
Can I just pause there for a moment?
Because, I mean, that's cool.
Do what you do at greater levels.
I love that.
But let's just pause for a second.
Like, I don't know how many companies
are closing Series B rents right now.
No.
Like, could we probably count
them on one deck of cards, right?
Yeah, probably.
Like, there's, there's...
Can't be that many who are doing
significant series B rounds and
um, to, to, to close that, uh, 20
million round is, it's fantastic.
Ps Vance: Oh, it's phenomenal.
Yeah, we, we feel blessed.
Obviously, you know, uh, the grace
of God, the hand of God has been on
the company, but also, you know, Like
you said, um, it comes in, you, you
position yourself for this, right?
You're partnering with God, um, and you
position yourself for this and, and, and
you're believing for it, you pray for it.
It, and then, and then it's like, oh,
okay, now it's time to get to work.
Now it's
Ps Adam: time to get to work.
That's what I'm saying.
Because I mean, it puts
fuel on everything.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Uh, it should, uh, I would say accelerate
the build process, but that compliment.
Oh, huge.
Someone investing that significant amount
of money in the next, next, next round,
actually now quickly becomes pressure.
Yes.
To perform.
Yes.
And so I think a visionary has
to be able to take both sides.
Of course.
To be able to fuel the, the funding, but
then now take the funding and say, well,
how am I going to not let this play out?
Buckle me and break me.
But how do I actually ride
that energy that it creates?
Cause what a, what an investment like
that does, whether it's a capital
campaign in a church or a series B in
a company, it actually creates a swell.
Yes.
It creates like a tidal swell.
That's now pushing a force.
That's right.
So you've got to become an expert paddler
to paddle up to speed, to catch that wave.
Ps Vance: And that's what I love about.
You know, the style of leadership
that you're talking about,
that we, we live, right.
And that I've learned from you is this,
it can't be spreadsheet leadership.
No, no.
So when I'm talking to my, you know,
finance team, HR team, and they're giving
me these analysis and, you know, Hey,
you know, these are the comp levers
and this is how we can incentivize,
you know, all that type of stuff.
It's good.
I want to know it.
I want to know benchmarks.
I want to.
Get this input.
But at the end of the day, what's
going to guide my decisions and my
conversations with mobilizing the current
team and mobilizing future team that
comes on, um, is actually kind of what
we talked about earlier personalized
pathways, because there is an.
There is a motive.
There is a motivation that each person
has actually specifically, uh, within
the organization, within the team.
And if you're trying to lead people
through a system of spreadsheet
leadership, uh, it just doesn't work.
Ps Adam: It doesn't work because for
them to follow you, there needs to
be something about you that they like
the direction and that where you're
going is where they want to end up.
And it can't just be like.
On a spreadsheet.
Mm.
It's gotta be a tone.
It's gotta be confidence.
It's gotta be a so good.
It's gotta be a style.
It's gotta be a vision that's cast
in such a way that, hey, where
you are going, now my decision
is I'm going with or without you.
Right?
But I wanna bring you,
Ps Vance: yes,
Ps Adam: because where I'm
going is not dependent on you.
Does that make sense?
A hundred percent.
So if I'm looking to recruit,
what I'm saying is where I'm
going is dependent on you.
So please come.
How can I convince you what can I give
you to make sure you come because my
future depend on you wrong premise
wrong premise Mmm, I'm the leader.
I'm going and I want
Ps Vance: you to come.
Yeah trains leaving You can jump on it.
Yes.
Yeah, exactly.
It's going to be a great train, right?
Yep.
You can jump on it, but, um,
it's leaving with or without you.
It's going.
And that actually gave me a full circle
moment because I don't think my previous
manager at Google is listening to this
pod, so I'm just going to say it anyways.
Probably not.
Is, is that's actually every time
in industry that I've, uh, felt,
The, the urge to maybe transition or
maybe my seasons up is when I started
feeling like, Oh, I don't want to be
like the person that's managing me in
five years, like, like I think that's
good for them, but it's not for me.
I don't want to, I'm not.
I don't want to, if I look
like that in five years, I
don't want to be that for me.
Um, and so it just goes back to your
thing, but you know, what's convicting
now is I'm on the other side of that.
Oh, I'm going to be that person that
people want to be in five years.
Ps Adam: You know, can I tell you a story?
Um, many people never heard this
story, but when Kira and I were
in youth ministry, One of the main
motivators that really got us talking,
because we were loving youth ministry.
Don't get me wrong.
Youth ministry was one of the most
phenomenal seasons of our life.
It was fun.
It was adventurous.
We were doing all kinds of crazy
things and getting away with it and
just, you know, like, it was just such
a radical season of life and, uh, In
that season, what caused us to start
thinking about what's beyond youth
ministry is we looked at the lives of
the youth pastors that we took over from.
And they, uh, literally had
retired probably another 10
years past their, their due date.
And where they retired is they, they were
excited about moving into a trailer park.
And they had bought this trailer park,
now admittedly, it was by the beach.
Okay.
Okay.
In a place called Stockton.
Okay.
Uh, but it was a trailer park.
And literally Kira and I said,
is that, is that what awaits us?
And it was enough motivation to say
that exact sentence, we don't want that.
Right.
Now, that wasn't the cause for us to go,
wow, hey, we better go and build a church
so that we don't have a trailer park.
But it was the motivator say, oh,
this is where we are right now.
It's not the end destination.
Yeah.
We need to start making some
bigger plans for our life.
Mmm.
Because trailer park ain't the goal.
Mmm.
We're not living on a
youth pastor's salary.
Right.
We're going to actually start
unlocking way bigger people and way
bigger industry and move to a place
that's going to influence the world.
Ps Vance: And what's, what's
been beautiful about this whole
journey, right, is that...
I feel like part of the gift of God,
it's connected to the ignorance we
all had when we started Vibe Church.
Right.
Is that he's provided, um, another
measure of exposure, but the
right exposure at the right time.
Yes.
Right?
Not too much exposure to be like a tease.
Right.
But just enough of the next picture
and not enough in the next puzzle
to be so excited to be present, to
be so purposeful in our present,
but to have a framed future that is
also, man, I'm excited for the now.
I'm excited for the next step
because he's continually surrounded
and locked different people in
places for us to be like, Oh wow.
Okay, cool.
That's next.
Exactly.
Ps Adam: I'm excited about that.
And I think that.
Not knowing what's next
is what's exciting.
So good.
So vision isn't meant to fill everybody
with a clear vision of what's next.
It's, it's meant to get them
excited to take the unknown step.
And, uh, that's why I even think
I'm excited, honestly, about what's
going on politically in our country.
Yeah.
Like.
The, the candidates of Vivek, uh, I'm
still, still, I still like DeSantis.
Come on
Ps Vance: DeSantis.
Come on bro.
Come on man.
Increase the personality.
You
Ps Adam: got this.
Show him something.
Um, but you know, I think there
are some great candidates.
I even think the Mick, all the stuff
that's happening within the GOP.
I think, you know, all the tension,
I think it needs to rattle.
It needs to come.
You know, they need to invent
a new day and a new team.
We have to.
All that kind of stuff.
And I think that that excites me,
the unknown of what can happen.
Because I know that God has things
that I'm not even expecting.
Right.
He's got rewards, promises,
opportunities, different style of
ministry, all the things that are coming.
Uh, and, uh, you know, it's
just, it's just interesting that.
The, my personality as a minister of
Jesus Christ, who was called to bring
transformation to the world, um, and to
ultimately redeem society, bring heaven
to earth, I find that, uh, the unknown is
exciting because I'm not a traditionalist.
I'm not religious.
I'm not locked in.
I mean, I just had this huge Instagram,
I'm not going to say the battle.
Cause I didn't, I didn't do anything.
I just literally made
a post about Halloween.
About Halloween, yeah.
Did a post about Halloween.
That was yesterday.
How is this still a thing?
I don't understand.
Well, that was, that was what I got
the indication and man, I've just seen
so many religious people commenting on
there about how can you Cause they're
celebrating demons or something?
Well, I think that's their perspective.
I think they're really bought into
the modern marketing that Halloween
is an evil thing and They think that
they have, they have certainly sold
themselves from somebody who's told
them that, you know, taking scriptures
out of context, don't participate in
the world, don't be of dark things.
You know, people make up the
classic scripture, be in the
world, but not of the world.
It's not a verse, everybody.
It's actually not a verse.
Okay, stop quoting it like it's
a verse, um, and there, there was
all these, these elements, but I
went out to Los Gatos last night.
Yeah, where are they too?
There had to be like 5, 000 people.
Incredible.
There was, I spoke to somebody,
I went up to the door.
I'm like, Hey, can I just ask,
what's your budget for candy?
Yeah.
They said a thousand dollars.
Come on.
They spent a thousand dollars,
willingly, to be able to hand out
candy to all these kids who are dressed
up as Pokemon or something else.
And I'm literally looking for,
you know how many churches with
love, for exposure like this?
Where is, where are the Christians that
are just being like, man, I've budgeted a
couple thousand bucks to give out candy.
Yes!
And I'm just saying, hey, God bless you.
Gracie.
Yes!
Do you know how many people
were saying God bless you?
Out there?
Ps Vance: Dude, it's like...
It's so crazy.
Historically, Halloween actually
is a Catholic tradition.
Yeah.
That got hijacked, you know, in the
60s by Satanists wanting to claim it.
Okay, here's the thing.
Here's the reality.
If Satanists tomorrow...
Wanted to claim Christmas.
Are we going to stop
celebrating Christmas?
Ps Adam: But Vance, that is, that
Vance, that is the narrative right now.
Literally doesn't make sense.
That, that it's another pagan holiday.
So I just think it gets ridiculous.
Ps Vance: In God can redeem
all things except for that day.
Okay.
So he can only redeem 364 days.
Ps Adam: But my, but my point is, uh,
I think we just, I like the unexpected.
Yeah.
I like catching the devil by surprise.
Mmm.
I like just seeing the church
Ps Vance: mobilized.
Even though the unexpected
sometimes leads to getting punched,
getting knocked down, failing.
Ps Adam: Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, they're the,
they're the byproducts.
I haven't been punched lately.
I don't, I don't
Ps Vance: get punched,
Ps Adam: but I meant
metaphorically speaking.
A little metaphorical punch now and then.
A little life punch.
Yeah.
Yeah, life will punch you.
Ps Vance: You know,
you always have a plan.
Mike Tyson says you always have a plan
until you get punched in the face.
So good.
And so, um, no, it's good.
I think we are in unprecedented times.
Yes.
We are, uh, hearing unexpected
things just happening constantly.
And there is this very negative narrative.
Um, there is very much, you know, an
increased sense of doom and gloom.
Narrative, I would say, but the future,
I believe, belongs to the optimist.
Ps Adam: Okay.
So how do you stay, let
me ask this question.
The future belongs to the optimist.
If we're talking to some people out here
and they're saying, I like listening
to the Hype Pod because you guys seem
to be optimistic about everything.
But the reality is they're living
with the threat of World War III.
They're under the, the, the fear, like,
hang on, there's tensions going on.
Diplomatically across the world, we've
got more nations making their alliance
stances with either Palestine or Israel
and, and, and how do you stay optimistic?
In the midst of the potential, I
don't know if we're going out too far,
nuclear war, all that kind of stuff.
And, and what about that's the
person who's now being despondent
and even getting started with
a company because they're like,
is the world going to be around?
Ps Vance: I've even seen pastors
on my Instagram starting to
become despondent, right?
Like just in despair, right, right.
With the state of the world.
I don't know.
I, I honestly don't think I
have a fully formed opinion.
I'd love your take as my pastor on
this, but you know, just for me.
Uh, I try to lean in on God's
sovereignty, obviously, I know
that could seem trite, um, but,
you know, do we really believe it?
Right?
Um, does he really have a plan?
Um, and specifically, you know,
the world is dark, uh, for sure.
The world is jacked up.
It's always been jacked up.
By the way, newsflash, um, but do
we actually specifically believe
that he has a plan for the church?
Does he have a plan, um, for the
church, uh, becoming more beautiful?
Does he have a plan for the church
that he's going to come back for, the
Bible says, without spot and blemish?
And if I can believe that, then
I can believe that he wants to
partner with me to be part of that,
to be part of his redemptive plan.
And so I, I do think we can be realists.
We can be, uh, not, you know,
completely unaware and ignorant and
just being kind of those people that
are like overly positive, but like you
have no idea, you know what I mean?
Cause that's annoying.
Yeah, it is.
So we can be, be realist, but we can also,
um, take the reality and be innovators.
Right.
We can take the reality
and solve problems.
You can take the reality and be leaders.
Yes.
That's what the world really needs.
Right.
Yeah.
I don't know.
How about you?
How do you, I mean, it's,
it seems, uh, heavy now.
It's like, to me,
sometimes I do oscillate.
It's kind of a battle when I talk to
my, you know, Kim about it and stuff.
We're just talking about it and, you
know, heading to bed and things like that.
And we're like, man, this is crazy.
Yeah.
How do you
Ps Adam: overcome that?
You know, I, I like to, what I
enjoy about it is having actually
more serious conversations.
Good.
Rather than every conversation
just being surface level.
Sometimes you can go through life
where it's like, okay, we've got
some surface level conversations.
Yeah.
But now we're really digging into
what is the orientation and what's
happening behind the scenes.
And, you know, I've always got a rule
is don't react, uh, or respond on
social media too close to something,
you know, because sometimes I
think you realize after a while.
Oh, man, I wish I could retract that thing
because I feel like I went out too hot.
Exactly.
And, uh, I do it with kids,
you know, I come in real hot
with kids and I'm like, Hey!
And they're like, Hey, they just
woke up, you know, but I don't want
to do that with social media where
I just come in hot and be like, you
know, put my stance out there, but
not knowing all the information.
And then to really start to learn and
realize, Oh man, I'm, I don't want to be
just a pawn in this economic world where.
Uh, you know, there is, there is big bank
behind warfare and there is big banks, uh,
and industrial complexes and big policies
that, uh, definitely affecting people.
And if you boil it down to your immediate
response is obviously compassion towards
people dying and all that kind of stuff.
But what are you protesting?
Are you protesting one country
invading another country?
Or are you protesting the protagonists
that are behind the scene?
And that are ultimately looking
for opportunity for invasion and
spending and all that kind of stuff.
So, I think, uh, you become inquisitive
is a tool for me to not be despondent.
Good.
I find inquiring and being
interested and investigating actually
becomes a way of educating myself.
Inviting robust conversation.
Inviting robust conversation.
I want to challenge my ideas against
someone who doesn't agree with me.
Because it sharpens me.
It actually makes me actually want to
bring facts, and links, and articles.
And I love being able to do that.
So
Ps Vance: good.
That was a good Hypod.
Yeah, we went over time.
We went a little bit over time,
but I thought it was a good
conversation, a needed conversation.
Um, and uh, just appreciate this space.
Thanks
Ps Adam: Pastor Adam.
Thanks, Vance.
Come on.