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Join RESOLVE’s leadership team for an in-depth look at what it takes to pass pro-family legislation, protect IVF, and what we’re up against.
HOSTS
President & CEO, Barb Collura
Chief Engagement Officer, Betsy Campbell
Chief External Affairs Officer, Rebecca Flick
ABOUT RESOLVE
RESOLVE: The National Infertility Association is the largest non-profit patient advocacy organization in the country focusing on increasing access to all family building options through insurance coverage and policy changes as well as protecting fertility care like IVF from legislation.
Hi there. Welcome to another episode of Infertility Discourse, a podcast from RESOLVE, the National Infertility Association. I'm your host, Rebecca Flick. Along with me is..
Barb Collura:Hello. It's Barb Collura.
Rebecca Flick:Good morning. Good morning, Barb. We are here. We're getting back to our regularly scheduled programming, bringing episodes every couple weeks to our audience. So thank you for tuning in and listening.
Rebecca Flick:It's been a busy, busy first quarter here at RESOLVE as we hit March. Just lots of things going on. We will be bringing an episode very soon with state advocacy updates because there's a lot to report on. But we're gonna jump into it because we have two guests today.
Barb Collura:We do. I see some other faces there. I know. Some very familiar faces.
Rebecca Flick:I know. We've gotten some great feedback that people are happy that we're bringing guests on.
Barb Collura:What does that say about you and me? And Betsy? Come on. I have been getting emails from people saying, I'd love to be a guest on the show. Are you getting those too?
Rebecca Flick:I am.
Barb Collura:I think it's, you know, pretty special.
Barb Collura:I think people need to realize we are- this is a really advocacy policy type of podcast. And so I hope that our guests are reflective of that as well, Rebecca, that we bring on folks that are really, you know, in the trenches with advocacy and on the ground.
Barb Collura:Yep.
Barb Collura:Bring a great perspective. So yeah. But we- it's so fun to have guests.
Rebecca Flick:It is. So let's get to it. Today's episode is I Won't Back Down by Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers. This suggestion came to us from one of our guests, and I couldn't agree more because these two advocates do not back down. They have been working so hard in their home state of Minnesota.
Rebecca Flick:Without further ado, please welcome Julie Berman, Miraya Gran, to Infertility Discourse. Good morning.
Julie Berman:Hello.
Barb Collura:Woo hoo.
Barb Collura:My fellow Minnesotans. Yay. So excited to have you both on. We're gonna talk about what it's like to advocate, what it's like to talk to lawmakers, those lawmakers who support our issues, maybe sometimes don't totally agree with everything. I'd love for you all to give folks your perspective, what you've learned and what works.
Barb Collura:And then we'll close it out with some updates on Minnesota hot off the press. We're recording this on March 4. We're about a month from your advocacy day, right, in in Minnesota. Exactly one month. I was there. Rebecca was there. A very chilly, cold Minnesota day.
Barb Collura:But Julie and Miraya, thank you so much for being on. Let's jump in. Just introduce yourselves, both of you. Tell us a little bit about how long you've been, first of all, involved with RESOLVE, but how long you've also been advocating in this family building space. Julie.
Julie Berman:Hi. Yeah. I'm so happy to see both of you, and I think I am the number one fan of this podcast. I love having you in my ears, so this is a big, big honor to be a guest. I've been involved with RESOLVE for over twenty years.
Julie Berman:It was during my family building journey, I felt very alone. It was very difficult as we all know. And I discovered RESOLVE about halfway through, and it just changed the course of my life, really. And through that support and education and hope, I just wanted to give back. So I've been volunteering ever since and did a lot at the local level, support groups, ran an educational conference.
Julie Berman:And then in 2013, joined the RESOLVE Board. I was board chair for a few years. And-
Barb Collura:Yes. She was my boss few years.
Julie Berman:It was the best. And then my boardroom ended and I was ready to, you know, what else should I be thinking about? What other causes? What other things do I wanna do? And then an opportunity came up in the Minnesota legislature where we had a democratic house, a democratic senate, and a democratic governor.
Julie Berman:And, you know, you talk a lot about how RESOLVE is, nonpartisan. And the reason that mattered here is that, and I won't go into this a lot, but is that there was an opportunity because the Democrats have typically supported our issues. So we thought there's an opportunity to get insurance coverage passed. So that's how I became involved in this particular issue. And I will hand it over to Miraya to share a little more.
Rebecca Flick:How did that how did that opportunity come about? Pretty sure our our next guest had a little bit of an impact on on bringing that opportunity.
Barb Collura:Miraya.
Rebecca Flick:Miraya. Miraya Gran. I'm gonna say your name because you always say, "Rebecca, you're always in my head with your voice." So welcome to the podcast, Miraya Gran.
Miraya Gran:You do have a great podcast voice.
Barb Collura:She does. She does.
Miraya Gran:Stick together, right? Yeah. Miraya Gran, Minnesota Billing Families Coalition Patient Advocates. Four years ago when I was on my year six or seven of infertility, I finally had some success. I was pregnant with my daughter and after taking out a second mortgage on my home because I didn't have infertility insurance coverage, my family threw a fundraiser for me to finally get to that point of becoming a mom.
Miraya Gran:I decided that it was time for me to get started on giving back and making an impact and a difference in other people's lives and ensuring that no one had to go through what I had to, to risk it all financially to build their family. So I called up my legislator and boldly requested or demanded that they start a bill for infertility insurance coverage here in Minnesota. And they got me connected. Literally within weeks, Julie found me. My mom had signed up on a RESOLVE list to volunteer and said, "You got to meet my daughter."
Miraya Gran:And I was testifying in a week or so at a hearing and a pre-hearing and it took off from there. Julie got me everything I needed and connected with RESOLVE. And so I've been working with RESOLVE for the last four years and been a patient advocate. And I have to say I'm grateful for the experience, but also grateful for the knowledge and grateful for the opportunity that RESOLVE has given us to really advance our bill here in Minnesota.
Barb Collura:So Miraya, you started off doing this on your own. You didn't have a model legislation in your hand. You just had your story. You just told that to your story. Tell us a little bit about what it's been like talking to lawmakers in your state legislature that maybe have not been as supportive of our issues. I guess, first of all, how do you know if they're not supportive? Then walk us through what those conversations have been like.
Miraya Gran:Well, sometimes I do know if they're supportive, and sometimes I don't know if they're supportive. You know, I can look at other bills that they have voted on to get a sense. But we always go in with an attitude that this is a learning opportunity, and I'm here to educate and share my story. Julie and I often attend meetings together. Sometimes we don't.
Miraya Gran:And we really start off, I think the first thing we do is we start off and get a feel for what is their experience with infertility. We always ask the question, do you know someone? Have you met someone? Have you experienced yourself? And then all of a sudden, before you know it, you're having a conversation and sharing my story.
Miraya Gran:And then they're talking about this topic and they're involved. It really kind of leads the segue into then we can share facts, we can move forward, we can then ask for their support or they ask that we're going into, you know, will you help us get a committee hearing or will you support this bill, will you sign on as a coauthor. So we always have an ask, but we basically start with a conversation about their experience, give facts, then have an ask. And we try to navigate what to say and what not to say, and we can talk about that a little bit more as well.
Barb Collura:Miraya, do you find that the folks that are any legislators that are opposed to you, sometimes I think it's things that we think is really hard, like, "Hey, I just don't think we can afford it in our budget," or "Gosh, isn't this going to cost a lot of money?" And so it's not so much that they don't believe in IVF or they don't believe in helping people, but it's things that sometimes feel a little out of our control.
Miraya Gran:A lot of times people are very focused on the cost, you know, we hear all the time IVF is so expensive. And I would actually beg to differ on that. IVF and infertility treatment is no different than any other treatment for a disease. And so when you're thinking of something like how much a knee replacement costs or my c-section cost me $42,000, most people don't know that.
Miraya Gran:I took a look at it and actually my IVF procedures were cheaper than that. So it's a matter of lack of insurance coverage. And I think when people start to reframe that and understand it's a lack of access to insurance, they start to think of this differently when they understand that I have a disease and that I deserve treatment for my disease. Therefore, I deserve infertility insurance coverage.
Julie Berman:We often see a light bulb go off when we give that analogy.
Barb Collura:Julie, what has been your experience in going into a lawmaker's office? You sent me on a meeting on advocacy day. I'm not going to say who it was. It was actually a female legislator who had been in the legislature for, or has been in the Minnesota legislature for several years. And you gave me a couple of tips before I went in because you knew kind of her position and some of the things that she was against. And how do you handle those meetings when you know that this is somebody that might have a differing opinion?
Julie Berman:So first of all, we've been at this a long time. And so we kinda keep notes on who we've talked to, who and when did they speak to them, and what did they talk about? And we look those up ahead of time to try to arm ourselves before meetings. So some of that, what I shared with you, we knew from other meetings. One of our co-sponsors, now co-authors, met with an advocate on advocacy day, she told us about the meeting, and that's how we knew to approach that person.
Julie Berman:So a lot of times it's that. Other times we know that there are issues because we will research, you know, say their website, their campaign website, or like Mariah said, the bills they've they've sponsored. And so we'll try to, I guess, arm ourselves or be ready to talk about the things that they may or may not, that they may be concerned about. You mentioned that cost one. Yes.
Julie Berman:We definitely heard that a lot. But, you know, a lot of times we hear things people just, you know, may have views that they are not comfortable with, for example, IVF. And when that happens, we just talk about our stories. And sometimes there's still, there is a connection because this is all about creating family. And think every politician out there is pro-family.
Julie Berman:So we really try to connect on that issue.
Rebecca Flick:Julie, have you seen since you've been involved in the mission for so long, have you seen an awareness shift at all with lawmakers? Like, you don't have to do as much maybe basic communication?
Julie Berman:Yes. And Mariah pointed this out after Advocacy Day this year. It was incredible. So we had done advocacy days, you know, in the past, but for this particular issue, this is our third one in a row. And the first year we were there, yeah, people didn't know what we were talking about.
Julie Berman:We were, you know, having the birds and bees talk. We were defining terms. I mean, it was, you know, they didn't know. This year, I think every office we walked into, I mean, they not only knew about the issue and IVF, but they knew about, our bill and, you know, what happened last year. And, you know, they didn't always know where it ended up, but they were aware of it. And we've been doing this consistently and that really makes a difference.
Rebecca Flick:Yep.
Julie Berman:And we certainly were helped that the national conversation, had a lot of attention on IVF as well.
Rebecca Flick:Yeah. You all actually had Jamie from, Alabama up last year. Didn't you?
Julie Berman:Yes, we did.
Rebecca Flick:Kind of took that national conversation and brought it to Minnesota.
Julie Berman:Yeah. And that was really helpful because we had her, she came and she was part- we had a big rally, in the rotunda at the Capitol. And she we had several meetings with lawmakers, and we talked about how, first of all, it's really important to protect the kind of the right to IVF. And that was already in law in Minnesota. But we really pointed out, if you don't have access, it's important to have that right, but it doesn't mean much without access. So we're trying to take it to the next level.
Rebecca Flick:Sorry, Miraya, I cut you off. Go ahead.
Miraya Gran:Oh that's okay. I was just going to expand a little bit more on these conversations we've having. So now that people are knowledgeable around IVF, now you can really get into the nitty gritty of kind of more controlling the narrative a little bit, in a sense of like, I'm not going to go down a path of topics that are off subject a little bit and kind of sticking to a little bit more of a script. So I feel like that also advances the conversation and understanding what not to say and how to maneuver those types of questions. I want to put in a plug here for any advocate who is out there listening.
Miraya Gran:If you are thinking about talking with your legislator, two things I always keep in mind. One, they're just human beings and they work for you. And two, you don't need to be afraid of talking with them because you have done this in your own families. You have probably been the educator on what IVF is and infertility treatments. And I think you've been asked a lot of really tough questions like, "Why don't you just do this or that?" And you've really had to navigate those same questions that you might be asked from a legislator. So I just want to encourage anyone who's listening to take up that big ask and talk to your legislator.
Barb Collura:So I just want to pause here for a minute. Rebecca, we have heard that Miraya, who forgive me, Miraya, I don't think in your professional job, you are a lobbyist. I don't think you've had that kind of training. You had a personal experience with an issue, in this case, of insurance for your infertility treatments, in this case IVF. You made an appointment with your state legislator. Were you guys- did you know that person? Had you met with that person before?
Miraya Gran:I had not met with that person before. I did cheat a little bit. Am a poli-sci major, but I had been out of that for a very long time. So I was still navigating in newer water territory.
Barb Collura:Okay. So this was not somebody you had a relationship with? And you met with that legislator, you shared your story. In other words, you had a problem that you needed to be solved. And you felt that there was an opportunity for your state legislature, in this case, own legislator to solve your problem.
Barb Collura:And it sounds to me like your legislator heard you and introduced legislation, and you were about ready to testify when you got connected with RESOLVE. Am I on track so far? So I want to just point out this is citizen advocacy at its best. This is our democracy. This is our democratic system.
Barb Collura:When people talk about grassroots, this is what they mean. They mean Miraya Gran. They mean, they mean somebody who just picked up the phone, sent an email, made an appointment, told her story. Now here she is. RESOLVE has organized with the folks in Minnesota, an Advocacy Day, or helped organize an Advocacy Day now for three years.
Barb Collura:We have an outside firm that makes all the appointments. We had an incredible day this year that Julie, Miraya, Meta, another volunteer put together appointments, morning training, a rally at the end of the day. You had the IVF clinics in Minnesota paid for lunch. I mean, it was a well-oiled machine. And so you may walk into that and think, wow, this is a really sophisticated, you know, process, but at its heart are people like Miraya and Julie, who are grassroots advocates.
Barb Collura:That advocacy day, how many of you were there on in February?
Julie Berman:We had about 75 people there. We had many more sign up. There were a lot of illnesses going around.
Rebecca Flick:February is tough.
Barb Collura:Poor Julie was fielding a lot of, "I'm sick, my kids are sick, I can't get to St. Paul at the last minute." But still, had an incredible group, 75 people, are you kidding me, show up at the state capital all day then advocate. So I just wanna make sure, Rebecca, that we let people know that this is what we're talking about. When we talk about grassroots advocacy, when we talk about people sharing their story, please have a picture of Miraya Gran in your face, in your in your head, because that's that's what we're talking about.
Julie Berman:And I wanna share one more thing about the people who, you know, came to advocacy day. One of the, key things here is we have built a coalition. It's called the Minnesota Building Family Coalition, and it's over 40 organizations that care about this bill.
Barb Collura:40. Four zero, not four.
Julie Berman:Four zero. 40.
Julie Berman:And coming from all different perspectives. And one really important perspective is the fertility preservation perspective. Our bill, would cover fertility preservation for medically induced infertility. Think about a cancer patient who is told they get their diagnosis and then they're told, you know, your treatment is going to make you infertile. We suggest you freeze your eggs or sperm, but, by the way, that's not covered by insurance and you need to do this, you know, lickety slip.
Julie Berman:So that's an important part of our bill. And we have many partners, in that space who brought advocates as well and joined us. And one of the things I wanted to talk about when we talk to legislators is having different kinds of stories and different perspectives, is also really, really helpful because, again, that connection point and what they care about, you just don't know what that's going to be. Finding those connections.
Barb Collura:And one of those groups is the Leukemia & Lymphoma Society, a national advocacy organization, and their state coalition has put out the word. They get folks to come to our advocacy day, to your point. So I'm so appreciative of you guys cut through everything. You told us how to talk to lawmakers, how to handle any kind of objections, if you will, but also kinda how to prepare. So, Rebecca, I'm sorry. Back to you.
Rebecca Flick:No. No. No. I just have one more question before we jump into what's happening in Minnesota because this will air as people are thinking about joining us for federal Advocacy Day. And anything other than what you've said or maybe just reiterate to someone who could perhaps be in a meeting with a lawmaker or a staffer of that lawmaker of someone they did not vote for and what that feels like if you've guys have experienced that or can can lend any advice to someone.
Julie Berman:First of all, absolutely. Everybody listening to this, go sign up for Federal Advocacy Day if you haven't. It's virtual. You can do it from home. It is so easy. And if you've never done this before, it is the easiest on ramp you can imagine. I mean, you're trained really well. You're with a group online. It's just it's really great.
Julie Berman:I mean, there's definitely a lot of people in that situation, you know, both parties. And I guess, you know, I'm one of the state coaches, and what I tell people is, you know, they are representing you. We hired these lawmakers. And even if you didn't vote for them, like, their job is to listen to you. So doesn't matter what their, if you don't agree with what they say, you should share your story, what you need.
Julie Berman:And you'll hear in a minute we've we have some bipartisan success here, and you just keeping at it. It's just really important. And then I guess the other part, this is both at the state level and the federal level, sometimes once in a while, there is a lawmaker that is just not interested in what we have to say. They're they're they're not open to it, and and they're they're not. And it's okay in those situations to just, you know, very nicely, you know, wrap it up and thank them for their time and move on.
Julie Berman:That's okay to do. It's rare, but that happens. I would
Miraya Gran:second that, but also say that for me, I feel like when I'm talking to a legislator that I know I already have support from, that's a checkbox, right? But also talking to the legislators that I know I don't necessarily have support from, this is where the real work begins. Okay? So this is where the education is, the digging in, the having the real candid conversations, and where you can make some real advancements. As long as you hold yourself true to what you believe to be, is this the right bill?
Miraya Gran:Are you going to stand for this bill and make sure it's a good bill? And you don't have to make a compromise in a sense that it's a bad bill necessarily. I know you guys talk about good bills, bad bills sometimes. But if you just hold your ground and you understand that your story matters, this is where the conversation back and forth goes. Because I know that I've actually met with this year, I met with a legislator that I have met with in the past, and that individual finally turned the tide.
Miraya Gran:The way that they came at the issue was a totally different way than I even thought was possible. But whatever it took for you to support us, and now that legislator has signed on to our bill.
Rebecca Flick:Wow.
Miraya Gran:So just keep going, just keep educating and keep moving forward, I think is the takeaway.
Rebecca Flick:When I was in Minnesota this past February, I got a chance to sit in on a meeting with advocates for a lawmaker who's very supportive and said all the right things. You know, kudos to the advocates for being there. He was happy to take the meeting. And he ended it by saying, "You know, I support it, but my colleagues on the other side won't. So this is kind of a done deal."
Rebecca Flick:And I watched, I felt so bad because I watched the other advocates in the meeting, like, shoulders drop. And this is someone who is supportive. Wasn't my role to say anything further. Right? I'm there to lend support, not my state, not my lawmaker.
Rebecca Flick:But I wanna encourage advocates if you're in that position with someone who's so supportive, but then kind of blames the other side for it not being able to advance, I think you can politely say, "Can you help me with that? Can you help me cross the aisle? You're my lawmaker. Can you help me? Can you help our issues?"
Rebecca Flick:Because, again, even if they're supportive, they need to be supportive in more ways than possibly cosponsoring if they're really, really supportive of our issues. And I I just remember my Barb knows me so well and Julian and Mariah are getting to know me like, I don't stay quiet often. And it was very hard to stay quiet in that moment because I was really disappointed for them. But it gave me some perspective to help with our communications, with our resolve advocates to teach them that. If that's a response, here's what you could say, help me.
Rebecca Flick:Right? That whole Jerry Maguire, like help me help you. That's what we need. And so we would love to get some insight on what's happening in Minnesota.
Barb Collura:Where are we today? Where are we today? And where do you think we're going to be this year with getting our IVF and fertility preservation insurance bill passed in Minnesota.
Miraya Gran:As far as the bill goes, Julie can drop in a little more of the background on Minnesota politics. But we have some great news. We have all five signers in the Senate have signed on and we have three Republicans and two Democrats.
Barb Collura:You're kidding me.
Rebecca Flick:Amazing.
Barb Collura:Oh my gosh. We have a bipartisan bill in the Minnesota Senate.
Miraya Gran:And it is in the house. Two Democrats in the House. So we have never ever had bipartisan in either the Senate or the House here in Minnesota.
Barb Collura:Fantastic.
Miraya Gran:Yeah. So we were doing a lot of hard work, but these conversations over the years have really panned out for us. Our lobbyists have been working hard on our behalf down there behind the scenes. We've been down there almost every week, Julie, I think, since we were down at Advocacy Day. We have another meeting on Thursday.
Miraya Gran:We've been walking the halls and sharing our stories, it's paying off. It's time in Minnesota and I'm hoping that we get-
Barb Collura:So the next step is committee, hopefully getting committee hearings?
Miraya Gran:Correct. Yes.
Barb Collura:So, okay. All right. Julie, anything else on the road ahead?
Julie Berman:You know, our goal is and remains you know, we want to pass this bill. That's our plan. That's what we're planning to do this year. The next step will be hearings. There, there are a few hurdles.
Julie Berman:The political climate has been maybe unstable and a little crazy here.
Barb Collura:Chaotic to say the least.
Julie Berman:Yeah. Really chaotic. They started late. There was the- it's tied in the house right, I'm sorry, the Republicans have a one vote lead in the house right now, but it's about to be tied because of special election.
Julie Berman:The senate has a one vote democrat lead. So for anything to get done, everyone's gonna have to work across the across the aisle. And it's a tight budget year. But, you know, what we have learned is you just never know what's gonna happen.
Barb Collura:Yep.
Julie Berman:And you have to keep showing up. And, you know, we remain hopeful, and we are gonna continue, talking and and talking to legislators and trying to get this passed. We are you know, if anybody listening is in Minnesota, please join our efforts. You can go to MinnesotaBuildingFamilies.org, sign up for our mailing list, follow our socials. You can reach out to me or Miraya or Meta Getman or kind of or wish she could have been here
Rebecca Flick:Shout out to Meda.
Julie Berman:Yeah. She's awesome. And she's the one behind, a lot of our work, but especially our social media. But we'll we'd be happy to help you talk to your legislator. You can do that via you can schedule your own meeting, and we'll help coach you, we would join you, you can write a letter. There's a variety of ways you can get involved.
Miraya Gran:So we're looking for more stories all the time. More people that come forward and share their story is the number one thing. Even if you aren't comfortable sharing your story in a certain way, we could find a way for you, whether it's an op-ed or, you know, like Julie said, we can share on your behalf. So please come forward and let us know. Right now we're working on our committee prep, so we're deciding who's going to share their story in committee and we're going through and making sure that we're ready with questions when our legislators come at us. So that's our hot topic of the week this week.
Barb Collura:You both go ahead, Julie.
Julie Berman:Oh, we talked about you know, we hired these people. They work for us kind of in that same vein. Hearings are open to the public. So we encourage people to come and be at the hearing. Wear orange like you can't see us, but Miraya and I are wearing orange right now.
Julie Berman:And actually, Barb might be too. Can't tell. And that makes a difference. We'll be testifying, and we say, and all the people behind us in orange, you know, care about this issue too. And it's, Barb said it, just participate in democracy in a great way to kinda see it in action.
Barb Collura:Well, you both are amazing. And along with your other advocates and Meta Getman, our lobbying team, our PR team, our supporters, LLS, other organizations who've been beside us all these years. So don't give up, ladies. Please do not give up because you can see the What if you had stopped after year one, right? What if you had said, Oh, forget it. This is a waste of time. And it's a marathon. I know that's an adage that we say all the time, but it's so, so true. What if you quit at mile 10? You know, never ever going to get to mile 26. So thank you, thank you so much. And I can't wait to see what happens.
Julie Berman:Yeah. Well, thank you.
Miraya Gran:Best advice we ever received was, "Don't go away." So other lobbyists groups, grassroots groups have said, I think was Mothers Against Drunk Driving or something like that. We ran into a hallway. It's down there and they said, "Number one thing is don't go away."
Barb Collura:Amazing. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. Wow.
Rebecca Flick:Don't back down. There ain't no easy way out. In the words of Tom Petty.
Barb Collura:In the words of Tom Petty. Now you know why Miraya picked "Don't Back Down." Thank you.
Rebecca Flick:Well, this was an awesome conversation. We're excited to bring more episodes. We often talk about we reserve the right to get better and, you know, think about things in our own life or our RESOLVE life where we reserve the right to get better. But I think this whole conversation has been about learning lessons. Right?
Rebecca Flick:Learning in every conversation that you guys have had with your lawmakers in Minnesota, you learn something, and you keep getting better and better. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Miraya Gran:Thank you for the opportunity for us to share.
Rebecca Flick:We'll share all the links to what how you can get involved in Minnesota, in the show notes. So keep listening wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for joining us. Thank you both.
Miraya Gran:Thank you. Bye.